Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Hark at the pot, much?

You keep arguing because you're too childish and cowardly to admit defeat.

Better nukes + really good pet + little upkeep + satisfactory MR debuff = better 4th member.

It's over, DSM. We have the intellectual high ground.

Sadly that is yourself. I have countered all your points, you haven't read my arguments, and you admitted the fourth persons DPS is irrelevent.

[cyxthryth]

Sadly

you stopped replying (like a little bitch)

Yes, I have

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.

as the data shows


You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.


How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.


No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

[PlsNoBan]

It hurts DSM's soul that mage does 50% more dps than his shaman using his own data so his defense mechanism is just "dps doesn't matter" while simultaneously arguing that shaman does lots of dps so they must be better than mage. The cognitive dissonance is wild.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It hurts DSM's soul that mage does 50% more dps than his shaman using his own data so his defense mechanism is just "dps doesn't matter" while simultaneously arguing that shaman does lots of dps so they must be better than mage. The cognitive dissonance is wild.

It doesn't hurt me at all, and you haven't read the data since you think it is 50%:)

The numbers are 25-58%, depending on the situation. The reason why the 58% number is less likely is because the situation in which it happens is pretty unrealistic. Nobody has yet to tell me where this situation would occur at level 60. Basically your group of four level 60s would need to be pulling single mobs non-stop, killing them in 36 seconds each. The group also refuses to let the Shaman go ahead and root/rot. The only two areas I can think of where you would be pulling mobs and killing them in 30 seconds at level 60 would be Sebilis and Spiders in Velks. But in both of those locations the Shaman could go and root/rot so the group can kill more mobs at a time.

I am not sure why you think misquoting my posts is helping your case.

I am pretty sure it is the other way around. You don't like seeing a Mage deal less DPS than you thought.

[PlsNoBan]

It doesn't hurt me at all, and you haven't read the data since you think it is 50%:)

I am not sure why you think misquoting my posts is helping your case.

I am pretty sure it is the other way around. You don't like seeing a Mage deal less DPS than you thought.

The initial data you posted had shaman at like 55 and mage at 82. You kept spouting off about how it's "only 27 dps difference and dps doesn't matter when we're talking about mage dps but look how much dps my shaman does cause dps matters. Watch me root rot adds in an xp grp like a retard cause doing dps as a shaman is very important" and when I pointed out the fact that using your own numbers mage is literally 50% more dps than shaman you went and tweaked your data to show something different. Was your data wrong then? Is it wrong now? Did you really think I didn't notice?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The initial data you posted had shaman at like 55 and mage at 82. You kept spouting off about how it's "only 27 dps difference and dps doesn't matter when we're talking about mage dps but look how much dps my shaman does cause dps matters. Watch me root rot adds in an xp grp like a retard cause doing dps as a shaman is very important" and when I pointed out the fact that using your own numbers mage is literally 50% more dps than shaman you went and tweaked your data to show something different. Was your data wrong then? Is it wrong now? Did you really think I didn't notice?

You missed my edit. And I openly admitted I miscalculated the Damage Shield DPS. Unlike yourself, I can admit when I am wrong.

The numbers are 25-58%, depending on the situation. The reason why the 58% number is less likely is because the situation in which it happens is pretty unrealistic. Nobody has yet to tell me where this situation would occur at level 60. Basically your group of four level 60s would need to be pulling single mobs non-stop, killing them in 36 seconds each. The group also refuses to let the Shaman go ahead and root/rot. The only two areas I can think of where you would be pulling mobs and killing them in 30 seconds at level 60 would be Sebilis and Spiders in Velks. But in both of those locations the Shaman could go and root/rot so the group can kill more mobs at a time.

You are basically trying to force people to only play in the situation where Mages have a bit more DPS.

[PlsNoBan]

You missed my edit.

The numbers are 25-58%, depending on the situation. The reason why the 58% number is less likely is because the situation in which it happens is pretty unrealistic. Nobody has yet to tell me where this situation would occur at level 60. Basically your group of four level 60s would need to be pulling single mobs non-stop, killing them in 36 seconds each. The group also refuses to let the Shaman go ahead and root/rot. The only two areas I can think of where you would be pulling mobs and killing them in 30 seconds at level 60 would be Sebilis and Spiders in Velks. But in both of those locations the Shaman could go and root/rot so the group can kill more mobs at a time.

You missed the part where root rotting adds in a group is the dumbest thing anyone has ever heard of and nobody wants any part of it ever and they'll just get a higher dps class to kill single targets faster if dps is a concern. Ya know... Like a mage or something. I hear they do 50% more dps than shamans according to someones data on the forums.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You missed the part where root rotting adds in a group is the dumbest thing anyone has ever heard of and nobody wants any part of it ever and they'll just get a higher dps class to kill single targets faster if dps is a concern. Ya know... Like a mage or something. I hear they do 50% more dps than shamans according to someones data on the forums.

The only dumb thing I have heard of is a fictional group that cares about DPS, but they won't let their members go and DPS.

You can't have it both ways. If a group cares about DPS, they will let their group members DPS. If they don't care about DPS, they wouldn't pick a Mage. Either way, the Mage loses.

[PlsNoBan]

How about if they care about dps but don't want some idiot root rotting in their group and just want a class that kills the mobs coming into camp? Cause I'd be willing to bet that's just about everybody that has ever or will ever play everquest.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How about if they care about dps but don't want some idiot root rotting in their group and just want a class that kills the mobs coming into camp? Cause I'd be willing to bet that's just about everybody that has ever or will ever play everquest.

Just because you are too silly to understand the logical fallacy here, doesn't mean everybody else is:)

If you care about DPS, you would let your group members DPS. If you don't care about DPS, or you have enough DPS, you wouldn't pick a Mage.

[PlsNoBan]

How about this. We all know there's tons and tons of silent readers in this thread right? Do me a huge favor. Speak up and raise your hand if you want a shaman to root rot adds in your xp groups so they can do almost as much damage as a mage instead of just bringing a mage to kill normally. If you think this sounds like a good idea lets hear it. I'll gladly wait to hear all the responses. I'm sure people love this idea and I'm the only one that thinks it's the dumbest shit they've literally ever heard.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How about this. We all know there's tons and tons of silent readers in this thread right? Do me a huge favor. Speak up and raise your hand if you want a shaman to root rot adds in your xp groups so they can do almost as much damage as a mage instead of just bringing a mage to kill normally. If you think this sounds like a good idea lets hear it. I'll gladly wait to hear all the responses. I'm sure people love this idea and I'm the only one that thinks it's the dumbest shit they've literally ever heard.

Most people realistically don't care that much about DPS. It is why you don't gear check players when doing XP groups. It is also why a debate about 20-30 DPS is silly. Most groups won't notice the 5 seconds they gain on easy kills. They will notice how much easier harder camps are with a Shaman though.

[PlsNoBan]

Still waiting to hear from the masses how much they would love having adds root rotted in their xp groups

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Still waiting to hear from the masses how much they would love having adds root rotted in their xp groups

You and the other trolls scared away other posters long ago. Who wants to post their opinion, only to be called "autistic" and then get blasted with memes?

People will still read, but I doubt they will want to engage with you at this point.

[PlsNoBan]

Still waiting to hear from the masses how much they would love having adds root rotted in their xp groups instead of just bringing a traditional dps class that does more damage without training mobs to camp. I'm sure there's hundreds out there. Hopefully we can hear from just 1 or 2?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Still waiting to hear from the masses how much they would love having adds root rotted in their xp groups instead of just bringing a traditional dps class that does more damage without training mobs to camp. I'm sure there's hundreds out there. Hopefully we can hear from just 1 or 2?

You've ruined that lol. I hope the 500+ posts of just memes and insults were worth it:)

Also you can get XP without being right next to each other. It isn't like you need to root/rot mobs so close to the group that they also get agro.

[PlsNoBan]

Ahh yes. I'm certain that must be the case. Hundreds of folks out there reading this thread that would all love having adds trained to camp and root rotted so a shaman can almost do as much dps as a real dps class. They're just too scared to post about it cause of DSM's autism and me calling it out.

That makes perfect sense. I'm sure that's exactly what's happening right now in real life.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ahh yes. I'm certain that must be the case. Hundreds of folks out there reading this thread that would all love having adds trained to camp and root rotted so a shaman can almost do as much dps as a real dps class. They're just too scared to post about it cause of DSM's autism and me calling it out.

That makes perfect sense. I'm sure that's exactly what's happening right now in real life.

What trains are you talking about? I have yet to cause a train in Velks or Sebilis. Root/rotting is easy.

The reality is groups just don't care that much about DPS, which is why they don't push their groups to maximize DPS. That is why the difference in DPS between a Mage and a Shaman isn't really relevant. People are happy with losing 20 DPS from letting a poorly geared rogue join the group, because they aren't gear checking people.

The only thing you have shown in this thread is you are willing to insult and attack people who disagree with you, while not backing up any of your points. You just say "I am right and you are wrong, you are autistic if you think otherwise."

[PlsNoBan]

Ahh yes. I'm certain that must be the case. Hundreds of folks out there reading this thread that would all love having adds trained to camp and root rotted so a shaman can almost do as much dps as a real dps class. They're just too scared to post about it cause of DSM's autism and me calling it out.

That makes perfect sense. I'm sure that's exactly what's happening right now in real life.

[Dogz_SS]

If we're talking about group dps, I'd take a magician EVERY SINGLE TIME over a shaman and it wouldn't even be close. Mage is an absolute group dps monster.

[Vexenu]

DSM, you keep harping on the utility value of a Shaman over a Mage, but would you not concede that a Necro would bring even more utility to the group, as well as higher DPS than a Shaman?

They can spot heal. They can snare. They can pull. They can mez on charm breaks. They can twitch. They can charm undead. They can rez. They have a much better pet. Hell, they can even root rot adds off the side the way you claim is effective!

And they are providing most of this value for the entire leveling process, not just at level 60 after acquiring the most expensive spell in the game.

It's time to face facts, DSM: your fat Ogre Shaman has no place in this group, and should be relegated to the tunnel SoWing newbs and selling potions.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM, you keep harping on the utility value of a Shaman over a Mage, but would you not concede that a Necro would bring even more utility to the group, as well as higher DPS than a Shaman?

They can spot heal. They can snare. They can pull. They can mez on charm breaks. They can twitch. They can charm undead. They can rez. They have a much better pet. Hell, they can even root rot adds off the side the way you claim is effective!

And they are providing most of this value for the entire leveling process, not just at level 60 after acquiring the most expensive spell in the game.

It's time to face facts, DSM: your fat Ogre Shaman has no place in this group, and should be relegated to the tunnel SoWing newbs and selling potions.

Necro is a great choice too. But Necros can't Malo -> Malosoni -> Slow hard mobs like Ixiblat Fer, for example.

As I said before, my choice would be Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric. You get all the utility you need for basically any fight a four man group could do, and you will still DPS fine.

[Chortles Snortles]

b-b-b-b-but guys!!!!! moST gRouPs dOnT CARe aBouT DPS
root rots adds in ur direction
(lol)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

b-b-b-b-but guys!!!!! moST gRouPs dOnT CARe aBouT DPS

It's true. When was the last time a group asked for a gear check? If people really cared about DPS in groups, you would see gear checks all the time. Often times you are losing 20-30 DPS just by picking players with average gear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Pro4F0B0I - A Shaman can get Hechaeva down 80% in 9 minutes. That is 19800 / 540 = 35 DPS, including doing all of the tanking, debuffing, slowing, and healing. With an Enchanter and a Necro, you are adding at least 115 DPS to the fight, which bumps the DPS up to 150. Just having that combination already reduces the fight time to 165 seconds. (24750 / 150) = 165. This doesn't even include the Cleric occasionally nuking since the Shaman is freeing up the Cleric's mana due to not needing to heal as much.

Most people aren't going to exchange a large amount of safety and ability to do other camps like Ixiblat Fer to save an extra minute on a fight that is already less than 3 minutes.

The content that a four man group can do just doesn't have enough HP to justify caring about boosting DPS to the limit. Even a beefy mob like Hechaeva is going down quick.

Remember, any time your group wipes, has to reset mobs, gate, etc., you are losing time too.

That is why Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric would be the best combination in my opinion. You have plenty of DPS to quickly level to 60. That's really not a tough thing to do with four people. And at 60 you maximize the high end camps you can do.

[PlsNoBan]

Kinda weird he keeps bringing up Ixiblat. It's almost like he's specifically mentioning niche scenarios where a shaman is more useful? I wonder why he'd be doing that?


P.S. Still lookin out for all those posts from people that want root rotted adds in their xp group camp. I'm sure we'll see a flood of posts any second now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Kinda weird he keeps bringing up Ixiblat. It's almost like he's specifically mentioning niche scenarios where a shaman is more useful? I wonder why he'd be doing that?


P.S. Still lookin out for all those posts from people that want root rotted adds in their xp group camp. I'm sure we'll see a flood of posts any second now.

Oh that's easy. A group of four is leveling 1-60 really fast, with or without a Mage. The question is simply do you prefer a Mage for a slightly faster leveling experience when it is already fast, or a Shaman for the ability to do high end camps at 60?

OP didn't say he was just going to level to 60 and stop, so we must also include farming level 60 content. A Shaman is the clear winner when considering both the leveling process and level 60 farming process. The Mage simply doesn't offer enough in the end game to justify their better DPS in the early game.

Again, you and the other trolls have ruined your shot at having other people post at this point. They don't want to be insulted/memed at just because they disagree with you lol.

[cd288]

Lmao this guy is STILL here writing novels days later. I wonder if DSM will hit a thousand posts in this thread

[PlsNoBan]

Oh that's easy. A group of four is leveling 1-60 really fast, with or without a Mage. The question is simply do you prefer a Mage for a slightly faster leveling experience when it is already fast, or a Shaman for the ability to do high end camps at 60?

OP didn't say he was just going to level to 60 and stop, so we must also including farming level 60 content. A Shaman is the clear choice when considering both the leveling and farming process. The Mage simply doesn't offer enough in the end game to justify their better DPS in the early game.

Ahh yes cause there are sooooooooo many camps that enc/enc/mag/clr couldn't easily do that enc/enc/shm/clr could do no problem. You're totally right what was I thinking? There's Ixiblat Fer and uhh... Ixiblat Fer and Fungi King? Oh wait no they could do fungi king np. Well there's Ixiblat Fer! I'm actually not even sure what the best charm available in BW is. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if they could do it just fine without a shaman but for the sake of argument I'll let you have this one. Are we now suggesting shaman is the right choice to make 1 or 2 niche mobs/camps easier at lvl 60? Rather than the CLEARLY better option for lvling 1-60 and at MOST other camps in the game? You know the class that does 50% more dps than shamans by your own data? That's assuming they don't have an epic in which case would be more than 50% increase over mediocre shaman dps?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ahh yes cause there are sooooooooo many camps that enc/enc/mag/clr couldn't easily do that enc/enc/shm/clr could do no problem. You're totally right what was I thinking? There's Ixiblat Fer and uhh... Ixiblat Fer and Fungi King? Oh wait no they could do fungi king np. Well there's Ixiblat Fer! I'm actually not even sure what the best charm available in BW is. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if they could do it just fine without a shaman but for the sake of argument I'll let you have this one.

Are we now suggesting shaman is the right choice to make 1 or 2 niche mobs/camps easier at lvl 60? Rather than the CLEARLY better option for lvling 1-60 and at MOST other camps in the game? You know the class that does 50% more dps than shamans by your own data? That's assuming they don't have an epic in which case would be more than 50% increase over mediocre shaman dps?

Again, you are just ignoring other aspects of the game. A Shaman decreases your groups chances of wiping throughout the 1-60 process and at high level camps. They also save your group mana since they can handle things like slowing and healing too. You are only focusing on DPS, because that is the only argument you can make for Mage vs. Shaman.

If you are going to assume perfect play (no group wipes), Mage still loses. Just roll four Enchanters since your group is the best of the best. It doesn't need any support. You can have pocket clerics for the occasional CHing pets or resing.

[PlsNoBan]

Again, you are just ignoring other aspects of the game. A Shaman decreases your groups chances of wiping throughout the 1-60 process and at high level camps. They also save your group mana since they can handle things like slowing and healing too. You are only focusing on DPS, because that is the only argument you can make for Mage vs. Shaman.

If you are going to assume perfect play (no group wipes), Mage still loses. Just roll four Enchanters since your group is the best of the best. It doesn't need any support. You can have pocket clerics for the occasional CHing pets or resing.

Have you ever been in a group with 2 enchanters and a cleric? Because I have and from the way you talk I'm going to assume you never have and have no idea how powerful it is and how little danger is involved if everyone is at least moderately good at the game. Judging by your signature I'm going to assume the only classes you have any real experience with are Shaman and SK. So it makes sense you wouldn't understand this. I've been in similar groups as the enchanter AND as the cleric. I know fairly well how the group functions and what it's capable of. Shaman brings next to nothing to the table that actually matters besides malo and mediocre added damage. You know who else brings malo (negligible difference from shaman malo)? Mage. Know who also does 50% (or more) more damage than shaman? Mage. Know who doesn't need to increase the risk and cause chaos to do respectable damage by root rotting adds all over? Mage.

2 encs and a cleric do not need:
Your healing
Your slows
Your roots
Your dots (mobs die too fast)
Your tanking
Your pet

Mobs generally die too fast and charm pets are too tanky to even worry about slowing but if you do need slow enc slow is only 5% less than yours. Your slow doesn't matter in the least. Your malo is slightly better than mage but again a negligible amount. I've held charm pets with both mage and shaman malo for extended periods and it's literally impossible to tell the difference. Mage doing significantly more DPS vastly outweighs it. All your other "utility" is worthless in this group. You keep droning on and on about utility and "safety". This group is not in any danger at just about any camp in the game. They don't need more safety. Stop grasping at straws. Nobody is calling shaman a bad class. It's one of the strongest classes in the game in many respects. This particular situation? Shaman is not that great and certainly not needed or better than several alternatives. As someone else already pointed out you could make a strong case for necro as a better option than shaman as well.


P.S. Still lookin out for all those posts from people that want root rotted adds in their xp group camp. I'm sure we'll see a flood of posts any second now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I have been in group with two Enchanters. You are correct the DPS is already good enough. This is why Mage is irrelevant. You have enough DPS, so you want a class that can open up more camp options, and reduce problems that occur due to RNG. Shamans are much better at this than Mages.

[PlsNoBan]

Enc/Enc/Clr isn't in danger and doesn't need shaman safety. You bring nothing but a slightly better malo and mediocre damage. Please get off the copium.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Enc/Enc/Clr isn't in danger and doesn't need shaman safety. You bring nothing but a slightly better malo and mediocre damage. Please get off the copium.

You already admitted two enchanters and a cleric don't need more DPS lol. So you want a class that can open up more camps and further reduce RNG problems. Thats a Shaman. Thank you for agreeing with me.

[PlsNoBan]

Enc/Enc/Clr isn't in danger and doesn't need shaman safety.

You bring nothing but a slightly better malo and mediocre damage.

Please get off the copium.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You already admitted two enchanters and a cleric don't need more DPS lol. So you want a class that can open up more camps and further reduce RNG problems. Thats a Shaman. Thank you for agreeing with me.

[PlsNoBan]

You already admitted two enchanters and a cleric don't need more DPS lol.

1 enchanter doesn't "NEED" more dps. More dps is always nice no matter how much you have. There's a difference between what's "needed" and what's nice. Just because something isn't required doesn't make it not good.


So you want a class that can open up more camps

Here we go with the Ixiblat bullshit again huh? Yeah totally worth it to pick an inferior 1-60 leveling option and something that isn't needed and brings less to the table in most areas of the game just so we can "open up" Ixiblat and maybe 1 or 2 other things AT BEST. Such a smart decision!


further reduce RNG problems. Thats a Shaman. Thank you for agreeing with me.

A group with enc/enc/clr isn't having RNG issues they can't handle. I don't know what fairy tale land you live in but it's extremely easy to keep charms under control with multiple encs and a cleric backing them up. There is very little actual danger here. I have not agreed with you and the fact that you think I did makes me question your mental state moreso than we all already have been.

[Ripqozko]

This is why VQ is losing now, full of DSM's

[PlsNoBan]

Who the fuck runs VQ anyway? Why are they not muzzling this shit? It's straight up embarrassing.

[Dogz_SS]

You ever see what 6 magicians can do? 🤣

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you don't have RNG problems, pick another Enchanter for more DPS. If you do, pick a Shaman for better safety and the ability to do more camps.

Neither situation has Mage in it, unless you want CoTH.

[PlsNoBan]

You ever see what 6 magicians can do? ��

Don't get him started. We'll have 500+ posts full of useless data on 6 shaman groups. He's probably already trying to math how much dps 6 epic clicks is.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You ever see what 6 magicians can do? 🤣

Sure, at low levels. Show me a group of 6 level 60 Mages doing any camp of value. I never see that group comp at higher levels. We aren't on a fresh classic server where people are bum rushing manastones.

[PlsNoBan]

This is why VQ is losing now, full of DSM's

Like honestly it's funny and all but I was debating dusting off my old rogue at some point and this thread is 100% reason enough to make me never give VQ a second look while this guy is a member. I'm sure they're fine and like most guilds have plenty of good people. But I think I'd kill myself if I had to listen to this level of nonsense in voice comms/guild chat all the time. DSM alone steering potential apps to Riot.

[Gloomlord]

DSM, you keep harping on the utility value of a Shaman over a Mage, but would you not concede that a Necro would bring even more utility to the group, as well as higher DPS than a Shaman?

They can spot heal. They can snare. They can pull. They can mez on charm breaks. They can twitch. They can charm undead. They can rez. They have a much better pet. Hell, they can even root rot adds off the side the way you claim is effective!

And they are providing most of this value for the entire leveling process, not just at level 60 after acquiring the most expensive spell in the game.

It's time to face facts, DSM: your fat Ogre Shaman has no place in this group, and should be relegated to the tunnel SoWing newbs and selling potions.

This gave me a good laugh, so I guess something good came out of this threat at least.

The man is insane. Even if he's trolling!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This gave me a good laugh, so I guess something good came out of this threat at least.

The man is insane. Even if he's trolling!

Both you and PlsNoBan already admitted the DPS of the fourth person is irrelevant. The debate is lost just from that lol. Enchanters provide the DPS, Shaman provides access to more camps and safety. If you think your group is good enough, just roll with 3 or 4 Enchanters instead. I know you guys understand RNG can cause issues. It is why you aren't suggesting 3-4 Enchanters:)

Like honestly it's funny and all but I was debating dusting off my old rogue at some point and this thread is 100% reason enough to make me never give VQ a second look while this guy is a member. I'm sure they're fine and like most guilds have plenty of good people. But I think I'd kill myself if I had to listen to this level of nonsense in voice comms/guild chat all the time. DSM alone steering potential apps to Riot.

You have no basis for this claim. I would be more worried about you to be honest. You think anybody who disagrees with you is autistic. You start yelling at them, and nobody can stop you, even when presented with factual data. The 500+ insult/meme posts combined from you and the other trolls is pretty damning.

[Gloomlord]

Where the hell did we say the DPS was irrelevant?!?! :confused:

We said the utility was irrelevant. Why? Because you argue it's worth keeping the shaman for, even though it clearly isn't.

https://c.tenor.com/Ll7MJPm2QvAAAAAC/time-to.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shaman DPS and healing is completely irrelevant.


2 encs and a cleric do not need:
Your healing
Your slows
Your roots
Your dots (mobs die too fast)
Your tanking
Your pet

Mobs generally die too fast and charm pets are too tanky to even worry about slowing but if you do need slow enc slow is only 5% less than yours.


Both of you have already said what other people in the thread have said, including myself. In a four man group with 2x Enchanters, DPS of the fourth member really isn't that relevant.

You claim Shaman DPS is irrelevant. Shamans can output 50 DPS vs a Mage's 80 DPS. If 50 DPS is irrelevant, you need to explain how 30 DPS makes a huge difference, to the point where it is relevant.

[Gloomlord]

What is this? I can't even...

We're arguing that, compared to mage, shaman bring less DPS, and that their utility is obsolete in this group. None of us are claiming the DPS is irrelevant.

You illiterate fool. At least read before you try to manipulate the argument in your favour.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What is this? I can't even...

We're arguing that, compared to mage, shaman bring less DPS, and that their utility is obsolete in this group. None of us are claiming the DPS is irrelevant.

You illiterate fool. At least read before you try to manipulate the argument in your favour.

You can't have it both ways lol. You can't claim a Shaman's DPS is irrelevant, but a Mages is relevant when the difference isn't that big.

Shaman DPS is not somehow special. 50 Shaman DPS is the same as 50 Mage DPS.

[Gloomlord]

UTILITY!

THE WORD IS "UTILITY"!

UTILITY!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

UTILITY!

THE WORD IS "UTILITY"!

UTILITY!

Shaman DPS and healing is completely irrelevant.

I don't see the word utility there. Do you want to walk this statement back? You need to explain why 50 DPS is irrelevant (Shaman DPS), but 80 DPS (Mage DPS) is relevant.

[Gloomlord]

This man is an idiot!

I have to say it. He's just so unintelligent...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This man is an idiot!

I have to say it. He's just so unintelligent...

When you can't explain your own quote, you resort to insults again.

[Gloomlord]

We've already established that the healing counts as the "utility", along with all their other spells which are not DPS.

And, for the last time, we've already established that DPS in 4th slot is not "irrelevant".

Yeah, I'm beginning to see what Plsnoban was saying. You can't be reasoned with. You've already lost the argument more than 100 pages ago, but you're so insane and unintelligent you can't realise this.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We've already established that the healing counts as the "utility", along with all their other spells which are not DPS.

And, for the last time, we've already established that DPS in 4th slot is not "irrelevant".

Yeah, I'm beginning to see what Plsnoban was saying. You can't be reasoned with. You've already lost the argument more than 100 pages ago, but you're so insane and unintelligent you can't realise this.

I am being reasonable. You just aren't explaining what you mean. I 100% disagree with the statement that Shaman utility is irrelevant. It opens up camps you couldn't do if you had a Mage. It also increases your groups survivability.

It is obvious you care about group survivability (and thus utility), or you would pick 3 Enchanters and a Cleric, or 4 Enchanters if you think DPS is the end-all-be-all. You cannot simultaneously argue a group with 2x Enchanters and Cleric aren't going to use a Shaman's utility, but it's too risky to bring a 3rd Enchanter, so you pick Mage instead.

If you want to claim Shaman DPS is irrelevant (50 DPS), you need to either show Mage DPS is higher than the current data shows, or show 30 extra DPS from bringing the Mage is changing your group in some fundamental way.

I am not sure why you need to resort to insults instead of explaining this.

[Gloomlord]

Did you forget, in your complete insanity, that there are two enchanters here who can "open up camps"? Why would they need a shaman?

I am not sure why need to resort to childishness instead of admitting defeat.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did you forget, in your complete insanity, that there are two enchanters here who can "open up camps"? Why would they need a shaman?

I am not sure why need to resort to childishness instead of admitting defeat.

Oh this is easy too. There are camps that Enchanters can't do.

West Waste Dragons are a good example. They AoE dispel (charm break) and summon, so they are pretty difficult for an Enchanter to do. I never see Enchanters soloing West Waste Dragons because of this. The pets an Enchanter can get in West Wastes are also not very good.

Shamans can solo West Waste Dragons, so they would allow your group to do them quite easily. As I mentioned before, mobs with high resists such as Ixiblat Fer and Fungi King are also mobs that a Shaman is good for. The Shaman can focus on slowing the mob while the Enchanters/Cleric keep the pets under control.

The Mage offers nothing other than DPS.

[Gloomlord]

https://www.cnet.com/a/img/resize/30c5b72b4eaf6940371d2fe17bdfb2e6b8c17a8d/2019/05/22/1b710a6b-5f4d-4987-a046-c23674b221a3/picard-meme-facepalm.jpg?auto=webp&width=1200

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Again, when you can't do anything else, resort to insults/memes.

[PlsNoBan]

People resort to memes and insults when they're trying to have a reasonable discussion with an unreasonable person that appears to have the mental capacity of a child. It gets frustrating and tiresome and sometimes memes and name calling are just easier. Nobody said DPS is irrelevant. More damage is always going to be helpful in some way. That's why a mage doing 50% more dps than your shaman is a better option when the other utility a shaman brings is largely irrelevant with enchanters and a cleric in the group. Your heals aren't needed. Your slow isn't needed. Your dots won't have time to tick and so on. Everyone knows shaman is a strong class just not ideal for this hypothetical group. You just unfortunately have such a strong boner for the class that it's drained your brain of all the blood it needs to think clearly and realize shaman isn't the ideal choice here.

We're arguing with someone that clearly has mental issues of some kind. A very large shaman boner. No blood in the brain. Posts the same bad information over and over. Makes up hypothetical situations that would never occur in reality to justify his bullshit (root rotting adds.etc). When called out just doubles down and pretends he's correct cause you didn't post enough data or do enough math so you couldn't possibly be right. Then on top of it all when people understandably get frustrated trying to converse with this imbecile he just makes another 50 posts bitching about people calling him names. My favorite is when he points out like 8 people combined have 500 posts and how thats a bad thing but it's not bad that he alone has 550 posts in this thread. At the current rate of posting he's going to have 3x as many posts as the 2nd highest poster here pretty soon. The mental gymnastics are the most impressive DSM feature I think.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

People resort to memes and insults when they're trying to have a reasonable discussion with an unreasonable person that appears to have the mental capacity of a child. It gets frustrating and tiresome and sometimes memes and name calling are just easier. Nobody said DPS is irrelevant. More damage is always going to be helpful in some way. That's why a mage doing 50% more dps than your shaman is a better option when the other utility a shaman brings is largely irrelevant with enchanters and a cleric in the group. Your heals aren't needed. Your slow isn't needed. Your dots won't have time to tick and so on. Everyone knows shaman is a strong class just not ideal for this hypothetical group. You just unfortunately have such a strong boner for the class that it's drained your brain of all the blood it needs to think clearly and realize shaman isn't the ideal choice here.

We're arguing with someone that clearly has mental issues of some kind. A very large shaman boner. No blood in the brain. Posts the same bad information over and over. Makes up hypothetical situations that would never occur in reality to justify his bullshit (root rotting adds.etc). When called out just doubles down and pretends he's correct cause you didn't post enough data or do enough math so you couldn't possibly be right. Then on top of it all when people understandably get frustrated trying to converse with this imbecile he just makes another 50 posts bitching about people calling him names. My favorite is when he points out like 8 people combined have 500 posts and how thats a bad thing but it's not bad that he alone has 550 posts in this thread. At the current rate of posting he's going to have 3x as many posts as the 2nd highest poster here pretty soon. The mental gymnastics are the most impressive DSM feature I think.

No, that is not what people do lol. If you think I am wrong, just let it go and stop posting. If you think I have a mental issue, this is even more sad because you are trying to win against someone who you think is "autistic".

You are incapable of being told you are wrong, and you cannot even provide evidence to back up your claims.

Instead, you accumulate over 500 posts of memes/insults because "it's just easier".

The only person acting like a child here is you, and you are also still wrong:) You can back up your points with evidence at any time, or stop posting.

[Keebz]

I feel like DSM has never played any other caster besides Shaman.

[cd288]

We've already established that the healing counts as the "utility", along with all their other spells which are not DPS.

And, for the last time, we've already established that DPS in 4th slot is not "irrelevant".

Yeah, I'm beginning to see what Plsnoban was saying. You can't be reasoned with. You've already lost the argument more than 100 pages ago, but you're so insane and unintelligent you can't realise this.

Lol welcome to the thread. Honestly the best part about this thread has become new people coming in and telling DSM that he’s wrong and he writes unintelligible novels in response so the person just gets exasperated with him and then he starts insulting them.

Gloomlord has been the latest victim. Now the cycle shall begin anew.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I feel like DSM has never played any other caster besides Shaman.

I have. I have also grouped/raided with the other classes many times. You don't need to have a level 60 character of every caster to know how the game works, and how other classes play.

Lol welcome to the thread. Honestly the best part about this thread has become new people coming in and telling DSM that he’s wrong and he writes unintelligible novels in response so the person just gets exasperated with him and then he starts insulting them.

Gloomlord has been the latest victim. Now the cycle shall begin anew.

Just because people say you are wrong, doesn't mean they are right:) You know what works? Providing counter-evidence.

[Gloomlord]

No, that is not what people do lol. If you think I am wrong, just let it go and stop posting. If you think I have a mental issue, this is even more sad because you are trying to win against someone who you think is "autistic".

You are incapable of being told you are wrong, and you cannot even provide evidence to back up your claims.

Instead, you accumulate over 500 posts of memes/insults because "it's just easier".

The only person acting like a child here is you, and you are also still wrong:) You can back up your points with evidence at any time, or stop posting.

"Just leave the thread so I can go off thinking I'm in the right, like the psychotic child that I am"

https://external-preview.redd.it/MRNMYoV2j2cpgM1kS6LYSAP_7eaKvIVDPkoyZd3f0Co.jpg?au to=webp&0afbeaa0

[cd288]

Where the hell did we say the DPS was irrelevant?!?! :confused:

We said the utility was irrelevant. Why? Because you argue it's worth keeping the shaman for, even though it clearly isn't.

https://c.tenor.com/Ll7MJPm2QvAAAAAC/time-to.gif

Yup if you have a cleric and ench zero need for the shaman

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Reposting an overview of the discussion. This is the data given, so it is all we can use. It would be great if someone else posted some data.

============================Mage DPS===================================

This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt:

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

According to Troxx, his pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58.

Average pet DPS: (36 + 50 + 45 + 51 + 30 + 49 + 56 + 60 + 55) / 9 = 48 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick sitting and 12 mana per tick standing. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. Let's assume the Mage has Conjuration Specialization. This reduces the cost to 248. Since the Mage will most likely lose 1 meditation tick due to the 6 second cast time, the mana cost goes back up to 268, to account for the 20 mana lost from not meditating. This means you can cast Shock of Steel 80 times per hour, assuming that is the only thing you do.

Troxx's average casts per individual fight: (5 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 8) / 9 = 5. To pull this off, that means he is spending 1340 - 290 (9 med ticks + 1 standing tick) = 1050 mana per encounter. After 3 encounters he would be out of mana, so there is no way he can sustain the DPS numbers provided. This is why we use the average of 1 nuke per minute, as it is not realistic to be nuking at a high DPS consistently. 74.22 is also close to the overall encounter of 80 DPS, so there is no reason to doubt the individual sets vs. the whole set.

Average player DPS without clickies: (825 damage x 80 nukes) / 3600 seconds = 18.33 DPS.

Using a https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which is a level 49 Sebilis mob and similar to Crypt mobs, an unslowed mob did 74 hits in 144 seconds. (74 x 33) / 144 = 16.95 DPS

Average Damage Shield DPS: 16.95 DPS.

Average Total DPS without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 16.95 = 83.28 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 24.66 + 16.95 = 89.61 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 11.45 = 77.78 DPS
The Direct damage number is lower because you would realistically only be able to nuke once per minute due to mana, so ((825 * 0.5) / 36) = 11.45 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 16.66 + 16.95 = 81.61 DPS
The DPS is halved on this due to it being difficult to realistically get two 17 second casts off in 36 seconds.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 18.5 + 16.95 = 83.45 DPS

============================Shaman DPS===================================

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Shaman Torpor Mana Recovery Video.

Pet DPS is using a max level pet with Celerity (50% haste), Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Average pet DPS: 7321 damage over 414 seconds = 17.7 DPS

A Shaman with max Torpor and Clarity II is regenerating mana at rougly 16 mana per second. Let's assume this Shaman has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (16 x 3600) + 3000 = 60600.

Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt cost 745 mana total. This means you could cast this combination 81 a maximum of times per hour. You would not be using Conjuraton Specialization typically, so the number doesn't change.

Average player DPS without clickies (Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt): ((1648 + 1278) x 60) / 3600 seconds = 48.76 DPS.

Average Total DPS without clickies: 17.7 + 48.76 = 66.46 DPS

Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS

Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS

Average Total DPS with 2x Epic Click + 2x Bane of Nife (on 2 mobs): 17.7 + 68.3 = 86 DPS
I will not use this for the differences in DPS below, since everything else is single target DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies (2x Ice Strike): 17.7 + 37.5 = 55.2 DPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman Quick DPS video, logs are attached in description.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with JBB: 17.7 + 29.22 = 46.92 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with 1x JBB and 1x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 35.25 = 52.95 DPS
This would be a bit more mana efficient than 2x Ice Strikes, could do more DPS if the mob takes longer to kill, and is the same cast time as 2x Ice Strikes.

============================Difference in DPS===================================

Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 83.28 DPS (Mage) - 66.46 DPS (Shaman) = 26.82 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 100.24 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 19.54 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference without clickies: 77.78 DPS (Mage) - 55.2 DPS (Shaman) = 22.58 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS

Difference is between 19.54 DPS and 30.5 DPS, depending on the setup of the Mage vs. the Shaman, and killspeed.

============================Conclusion============ =======================

The reason for this breakdown is because the debate is choosing between Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric or Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric for OP's question. The argument for Mage is DPS + Malo + Charm Break Safety.

A Shaman has both Charm Break Safety (Pet + Torpor) and a better Malo -> Malosini chance, due to Malo being better than Mala. When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 20-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. A Shaman's toolkit on the other hand has a much broader application, and will save your group time in other less quantifiable ways. I see very little reason to pick a Mage over a Shaman.

The other debate that spawned was whether to take a Shaman or not based on them being less useful at low levels. It is true Shamans don't come into their own until level 30 or so, but this is true for Enchanters and clerics too. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3499420&postcount=1273 This post shows a level 24 warrior out-DPSing a level 27 charmed pet with 37% haste and a Torch. Enchanter charm isn't as powerful as people think at lower levels, plus Enchanters have to deal with more meditating, lower mana pool, more fizzles, more interrupts, resists, etc. The 2x Enchanters in this group aren't going to be as good as melees with 2k worth of gear. The cleric is also going to bring fairly little to the table. This shouldn't deter you from bringing these classes, as they are well worth the wait once you get to level 30 or so. Luckily leveling from 1-30 is going to be super easy with any group of 4, so this shouldn't be a big consideration.

Finally, this debate is looking at all level ranges, from 1-60, including level 60 item farming. It is up to the user to decide whether they want to pick a Mage for slightly faster kill speeds from levels 1-60 and during level 60 farming, or pick a Shaman for their superior utility and safety. This is very useful when farming level 60 camps like Fungi King and Ixiblat Fer. Honestly a group of 4 casters is already going to level extremely quickly, so I do not believe the Mage is worth it. A slightly better leveling experience does not make up for a Mage bringing very little at the end. OP has already chosen his group (Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage), so it is actually a draw hehe. I personally would do Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric.

[Gloomlord]

I'm against people being kicked out of a guild for reasons they disagree, since I remember being kicked out of a guild in Classic WoW for merely saying I thought reserving loot in PuGs was the antithesis of a fucking MMORPG. Opinions, USUALLY, should be respected.

But this man is so insane and childish, he honestly deserves to be kicked from this guild you guys speak about. He is an utter embarrassment to mature adults.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm against people being kicked out of a guild for reasons they disagree, since I remember being kicked out of a guild in Classic WoW for merely saying I thought reserving loot in PuGs was the antithesis of a fucking MMORPG. Opinions, USUALLY, should be respected.

But this man is so insane and childish, he honestly deserves to be kicked from this guild you guys speak about. He is an utter embarrassment to mature adults.

You really need to look in a mirror. You can't admit you are wrong, and insult anybody who disagrees with you.

Fallacies such as "Everybody thinks I am right, therefore I am right" are not a valid argument. I am not sure why you are so hung up on thinking you can continue a discussion in this manner. Either bring evidence or respectfully disagree. You are not special. You do not get to dictate by fiat who is right or wrong.

[PlsNoBan]

You really need to look in a mirror. You can't admit you are wrong, and insult anybody who disagrees with you.

Fallacies such as "Everybody thinks I am right, therefore I am right" are not a valid argument. I am not sure why you are so hung up on thinking you can continue a discussion in this manner. Either bring evidence or respectfully disagree. You are not special. You do not get to dictate by fiat who is right or wrong.

Mage does 50% more dps than shaman by your own data. Shaman utility is largely useless in a group with 2 encs and a cleric. Shaman does less damage than mage and brings nothing else that really matters to the table. Math/Logic/Data all pointing to Mage > Shaman. Yet you have 550+ posts saying the opposite.

Riddle me this fuckhead: How do you suggest we provide "evidence" that will change your mind? Far as I'm concerned the evidence is already clear as day and you just bold face stare at it and go "Nope wrong cuz shaman boner". Or you just make up some bullshit about safety and how the shaman makes everything safer. If you knew anything about this game you'd know that was dumb. If you've been in multiple enc groups with a cleric you'd know they don't fucking need a shaman to be safe. They'll do just fine I promise.

[Gloomlord]

I've looked. I don't see some foolish child starting a mega thread over something so petty.

I mean: you actually put in smiley faces in your posts. We know you're a troll, alright? But you're also too unintelligent to see that the trolling should have stopped when it's become clear to every observer here there is no longer any illusion that you are right.

Honestly, I think posting funny memes and insults are all that you deserve now.

[PlsNoBan]

At first I thought DSM's avatar was a screenshot of his shaman. Starting to wonder if that's an IRL selfie?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mage does 50% more dps than shaman by your own data. Shaman utility is largely useless in a group with 2 encs and a cleric. Shaman does less damage than mage and brings nothing else that really matters to the table. Math/Logic/Data all pointing to Mage > Shaman. Yet you have 550+ posts saying the opposite.

Riddle me this fuckhead: How do you suggest we provide "evidence" that will change your mind? Far as I'm concerned the evidence is already clear as day and you just bold face stare at it and go "Nope wrong cuz shaman boner".

I have explained why Shaman is greater than a Mage, and why 20-30 DPS isn't going to affect your group in any meaningful way. During the leveling process 4 casters are already going to be leveling fast, and at level 60 Shamans open up more camps than a Mage.

As to what evidence I am looking for, there are a number of things you could provide.

First would be DPS data showing a Mage doing a lot more DPS on average than what the current data shows. If this discussion was not limited to Casters/Priests, a Rogue would be tempting, since they can do something like 133 DPS on average with Epic and a good offhand. That is 50 more DPS than a Mage and 80 more DPS than a Shaman. That is basically a safer Enchanter pet. You still would lose Malo support, but at least then you could probably start saving enough time on kills to wipe once an hour and still come out on top.

The other evidence you could provide is showing a level 60 Mage contributing more to high level camps than a Shaman by using DPS rather than Utility. Typically you would only pick a Mage over a Shaman if you need CoTH.

[PlsNoBan]

I have explained why Shaman is greater than a Mage, and why 20-30 DPS isn't going to affect your group in any meaningful way. During the leveling process 4 casters are already going to be leveling fast, and at level 60 Shamans open up more camps than a Mage.

Mage DPS is more important than Shaman utility in this context. This is a matter of opinion and no data or calculations can be done on it. The only thing a shaman does in this group is provide redundant heals slows and malos. All things that should already be covered. As well as mediocre dps which as you've stated about 19 trillion times isn't super important due to having 2 charms already. However if given the option between 50% more DPS or extra slows/heals/malos that I don't need I'm gonna go with the extra dps. This is a very common sense choice in my opinion and it so happens that everyone that has visited this thread so far has agreed with me and not with you. Maybe every one of us is an idiot or maybe you're the idiot. Tell me with your amazing math and statistical skills. Which is more likely?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mage DPS is more important than Shaman utility in this context. This is a matter of opinion and no data or calculations can be done on it. The only thing a shaman does in this group is provide redundant heals slows and malos. All things that should already be covered. As well as mediocre dps which as you've stated about 19 trillion times isn't super important due to having 2 charms already. However if given the option between 50% more DPS or extra slows/heals/malos that I don't need I'm gonna go with the extra dps. This is a very common sense choice in my opinion and it so happens that everyone that has visited this thread so far has agreed with me and not with you. Maybe every one of us is an idiot or maybe you're the idiot. Tell me with your amazing math and statistical skills. Which is more likely?

A few people have agreed with my overall points such as Danth, Kich867, and W1zard. Not that this matters, since the number of people who agree with you is irrelevant.

Currently I have data backing up my points, and you do not. Youu are indeed more likely to be wrong statistically. This is especially true since nobody has bothered providing more data. The Mage data isn't coming from me, so it isn't like I faked it to try and make my argument look good.

Also you are 100% fine with having a preference, nobody is forcing you to prefer one or the other. But if you want to talk in more objective terms, that is different.

[Gloomlord]

Kill speed > redundant utility in a group of 4 people wanting to exp grind and farm.

It's common sense, DSM. Something that you are most lacking in...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Kill speed > redundant utility in a group of 4 people wanting to exp grind and farm.

It's common sense, DSM. Something that you are most lacking in...

Except it isn't, or you would run 3-4 Enchanters hehe. Their redundant stuns are useful, correct? Redudancy is useful, and you don't need to maximize DPS in group content.

[Gloomlord]

We already established a 3rd enchanter would be better DPS, but if we're talking either Mage of Shaman, then Mage obviously wins.

How do you not see you've lost? "Redundancy is useful" is not a counter argument to this.

The nerve of the mage class to actually be better at something than the shaman! HOW DARE THEY?!

Piss off already, you twit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We already established a 3rd enchanter would be better DPS, but if we're talking either Mage of Shaman, then Mage obviously wins.

How do you not see you've lost? "Redundancy is useful" is not a counter argument to this.

The nerve of the mage class to actually be better at something than the shaman! HOW DARE THEY?!

Piss off already, you twit.

You need to take a break from posting. You are clearly just mad. I didn't balance the game, don't blame me for Mages being underpowered.

[cd288]

You really need to look in a mirror. You can't admit you are wrong, and insult anybody who disagrees with you.

Fallacies such as "Everybody thinks I am right, therefore I am right" are not a valid argument. I am not sure why you are so hung up on thinking you can continue a discussion in this manner. Either bring evidence or respectfully disagree. You are not special. You do not get to dictate by fiat who is right or wrong.

I love when DSM writes comments like this. Because he literally describes himself while mocking someone else lol

[PlsNoBan]

A few people have agreed with my overall points such as Danth, Kich867, and W1zard. Not that this matters, since the number of people who agree with you is irrelevant.

Currently I have data backing up my points, and you do not. Youu are indeed more likely to be wrong statistically. This is especially true since nobody has bothered providing more data. The Mage data isn't coming from me, so it isn't like I faked it to try and make my argument look good.

Also you are 100% fine with having a preference, nobody is forcing you to prefer one or the other. But if you want to talk in more objective terms, that is different.

Lol you actually think they agreed with your overall points :rolleyes:

There is no "data" that backs your point of preferring redundant utility to DPS. Such data does not and can not exist. I've said multiple times (dating back to my first post in this thread) that the hypothetical 4 best caster/priest group is without question Enc/Enc/Enc/Clr. I only got into this mage vs shaman debacle when you started making outlandish statements about how shaman was better and did as much damage or whatever you said initially. Which I think we've unequivocally proven false at this point. Even by your own data shaman does considerably less damage than mage. At this point you're just grasping on tight to "B.. b... but muh utility?! What about SAFETY?!?" talking point to justify your shaman preference cause you've admitted defeat on the shaman dps argument (thank god). The problem is shaman utility is nearly useless in this group assuming the enchanters and cleric are played by competent players. But as was said before this WHOLE DISCUSSION is assuming the player behind the keyboard is competent and knows how to play their class. Any competent group of 2+ enchanters and a cleric has absolutely no need whatsoever for a shaman. They don't need a 3rd person casting slow. A mage can cover malo. Your dots are meaningless. There isn't enough damage going around to have a need for more than a single cleric for healing output. The cleric also has permanent C2 and if bringing a mage or necro then mod rods/twitches. I don't see any reason to jam a shaman into this group where it's not needed or anywhere near the best choice.

Basically at this point the only logical point you can make is this: Shaman is a solid choice if you want to have a subpar class for 1-60 (a long ass time) and after extensive grinding and clicky/spell acquisition it becomes almost as good as other classes for the group and it allows you to do a couple niche fights you would have a harder time doing otherwise like Ixiblat and WW Dragons. Everything else you're saying is absolute bullshit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I love when DSM writes comments like this. Because he literally describes himself while mocking someone else lol

Except it isn't.

I have data to back up my points, where other people just keep saying "You are wrong because everyone else says so". The post history is pretty clear.

I am not mocking people. I am just telling them how it is. You can look back at their posts if you don't believe it.

[Ripqozko]

DSM will never quit posting to "prove he is right", 200 pages easy. he will just keep telling you to let it go so he can feel superior.

[PlsNoBan]

The color red is better than the color green. My data backs up my points. Everyone else is using fallacies with no evidence. The post history is pretty clear. Everyone just calls me autistic when I act autistic and therefore red is better than green. Data.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol you actually think they agreed with your overall points :rolleyes:

There is no "data" that backs your point of preferring redundant utility to DPS. Such data does not and can not exist. I've said multiple times (dating back to my first post in this thread) that the hypothetical 4 best caster/priest group is without question Enc/Enc/Enc/Clr. I only got into this mage vs shaman debacle when you started making outlandish statements about how shaman was better and did as much damage or whatever you said initially. Which I think we've unequivocally proven false at this point. Even by your own data shaman does considerably less damage than mage. At this point you're just grasping on tight to "B.. b... but muh utility?! What about SAFETY?!?" talking point to justify your shaman preference cause you've admitted defeat on the shaman dps argument (thank god). The problem is shaman utility is nearly useless in this group assuming the enchanters and cleric are played by competent players. But as was said before this WHOLE DISCUSSION is assuming the player behind the keyboard is competent and knows how to play their class. Any competent group of 2+ enchanters and a cleric has absolutely no need whatsoever for a shaman. They don't need a 3rd person casting slow. A mage can cover malo. Your dots are meaningless. There isn't enough damage going around to have a need for more than a single cleric for healing output. The cleric also has permanent C2 and if bringing a mage or necro then mod rods/twitches. I don't see any reason to jam a shaman into this group where it's not needed or anywhere near the best choice.

Basically at this point the only logical point you can make is this: Shaman is a solid choice if you want to have a subpar class for 1-60 (a long ass time) and after extensive grinding and clicky/spell acquisition it becomes almost as good as other classes for the group and it allows you to do a couple niche fights you would have a harder time doing otherwise like Ixiblat and WW Dragons. Everything else you're saying is absolute bullshit.

Again, you clearly haven't read what I have been saying if this is what you think.

Nobody ever said Shamans do more DPS than Mages. The only reason why you think that is because I showed a Shaman can match or exceed Mage DPS when root/rotting multiple mobs (which you can do in a group). I am not sure where you think I admitted defeat on that.

My whole point has always been that based on the data, a Mage is bringing only 20-30 DPS over a Shaman. So you are trading a small amount of DPS for a large amount of utility. Honestly you know that utility and safety is useful. It is why you bring a Cleric and use the utility of an Enchanter to survive. You also know that redundant spells are good. It is why having multiple stun casters is better than one.

It would be easy to piece these things together logically if you weren't unreasonably mad at me for no reason.

A Shaman offers a much broader toolkit and opens up more camps for a small loss in DPS. A group of 4 casters is going to level fast, whether you have a Mage or not.

It is up to your preference to decide whether you want a slightly faster leveling experience at the cost of the Mage being less useful in the end.

[PlsNoBan]

Again, you clearly haven't read what I have been saying if this is what you think.

Nobody ever said Shamans do more DPS than Mages. The only reason why you think that is because I showed a Shaman can match or exceed Mage DPS when root/rotting multiple mobs (which you can do in a group). I am not sure where you think I admitted defeat on that.

My whole point has always been that based on the data, a Mage is bringing only 20-30 DPS over a Shaman. So you are trading a small amount of DPS for a large amount of utility. Honestly you know that utility and safety is useful. It is why you bring a Cleric and use the utility of an Enchanter to survive. You also know that redundant spells are good. It is why having multiple stun casters is better than one.

It would be easy to piece these things together logically if you weren't unreasonably mad at me for no reason.

A Shaman offers a much broader toolkit and opens up more camps for a small loss in DPS. A group of 4 casters is going to level fast, whether you have a Mage or not.

It is up to your preference to decide whether you want a slightly faster leveling experience at the cost of the Mage being less useful in the end.

I notice you keep referring to it as "30 dps" and not "50% more dps than shaman". That's odd. Cause to me it appears you're trading 50% more dps for a bunch of redundant unnecessary utility. Utility and safety ARE important. That's why you have multiple enchanters covering eachothers charm breaks and a cleric to heal. What the fuck do you need a shaman for? Should we add 2 shamans while we're at it? Obviously in your fucked head utility and heals can be stacked infinitely and don't lose any effectiveness right? Fuck it 6 shamans best group in all of norrath!

[PlsNoBan]

DSM do you think about shamans when you touch yourself at night?

Asking for a friend

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I notice you keep referring to it as "30 dps" and not "50% more dps than shaman". That's odd. Cause to me it appears you're trading 50% more dps for a bunch of redundant unnecessary utility. Utility and safety ARE important. That's why you have multiple enchanters covering eachothers charm breaks and a cleric to heal. What the fuck do you need a shaman for? Should we add 2 shamans while we're at it? Obviously in your fucked head utility and heals can be stacked infinitely and don't lose any effectiveness right? Fuck it 6 shamans best group in all of norrath!

It's 20-30 DPS, depending on the situation. 50% sounds good, but the actual number is still 20-30 DPS, which is a pretty small amount, and the 20 is only 25%. Saying "Bobs DPS is double that of Joe's DPS" sounds good until you learn Bob's DPS is 4 and Joe's DPS is 2.

The 30 DPS difference only occurs when you are in the very specific situation where your group is chain pulling mobs that die in 30 seconds and for some reason you refuse to allow your Shaman to root rot. I am still waiting to learn where this magical camp is.

[cd288]

DSM will never quit posting to "prove he is right", 200 pages easy. he will just keep telling you to let it go so he can feel superior.

lol he’s at nearly 600 posts, there’s like two people with two hundred, one with 100. Nearly 600 posts in a single thread! A ton of which are like five paragraph essays. Dude could’ve written and published a novel at this point with how many words he’s typed lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

lol he’s at nearly 600 posts, there’s like two people with two hundred, one with 100. Nearly 600 posts in a single thread! A ton of which are like five paragraph essays. Dude could’ve written and published a novel at this point with how many words he’s typed lol

I'll take my post history over the 500+ combined posts that are just memes/insults. Spreading the trolling around to multiple users doesn't make it less silly. At least I am trying to have a conversation, unlike yourself.

[Ripqozko]

I'll take my post history over the 500+ combined posts that are just memes/insults. Spreading the trolling around to multiple users doesn't make it less silly. At least I am trying to have a conversation, unlike yourself.

Nope you are just being obtuse because thats your personality. Keep showing everyone tho, surely you will sway everyone with your data.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nope you are just being obtuse because thats your personality. Keep showing everyone tho, surely you will sway everyone with your data.

Using data is more persuasive than insults and memes. I am not sure who you are swaying by simply insulting me over and over. It just makes yourself look bad.

[Ripqozko]

Using data is more persuasive than insults and memes. I am not sure who you are swaying by simply insulting me over and over. It just makes yourself look bad.

That's not an insult, the data shows this is true.

[Karanis]

18593

[PlsNoBan]

Using data is more persuasive than insults and memes. I am not sure who you are swaying by simply insulting me over and over. It just makes yourself look bad.

My data says everyone that reads this thread thinks you're a moron

Hope this helps

[Vivitron]

Oh this is easy too. There are camps that Enchanters can't do.

West Waste Dragons are a good example. They AoE dispel (charm break) and summon, so they are pretty difficult for an Enchanter to do. I never see Enchanters soloing West Waste Dragons because of this. The pets an Enchanter can get in West Wastes are also not very good.

Shamans can solo West Waste Dragons, so they would allow your group to do them quite easily. As I mentioned before, mobs with high resists such as Ixiblat Fer and Fungi King are also mobs that a Shaman is good for. The Shaman can focus on slowing the mob while the Enchanters/Cleric keep the pets under control.

The Mage offers nothing other than DPS.

The WW wyvern huner/huntresses seem to be perfectly good pets, but yeah aoe dispel is a real deterent for enchanters.

[cd288]

No need to slow when you’re melting mobs fast. I always feel bad for shamans in groups when there’s a cleric because the group is chain pulling so fast that the shaman slow isn’t even needed nor are his heals

[PlsNoBan]

No need to slow when you’re melting mobs fast. I always feel bad for shamans in groups when there’s a cleric because the group is chain pulling so fast that the shaman slow isn’t even needed nor are his heals

Shaman is a useless class in a fast killing grp with a cleric 100%. Especially one that has 2+ enchanters. This is very common sense and most people just intuitively realize this with no data or testing required.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shaman is a useless class in a fast killing grp with a cleric 100%. Especially one that has 2+ enchanters. This is very common sense and most people just intuitively realize this with no data or testing required.

Not all groups are chain pulling, and Mage is redundant too because the Enchanter DPS is enough. The group is killing things in 30 seconds because of the Enchanters, not the Mage. Again, you are only saving about 4-5 seconds per kill by adding a Mage vs. a Shaman. Shamans can also root/rot in easy areas where chain pulling is possible.

No need to slow when you’re melting mobs fast. I always feel bad for shamans in groups when there’s a cleric because the group is chain pulling so fast that the shaman slow isn’t even needed nor are his heals

I feel bad for Mages to be honest. They mostly become CoTH bots because they just don't offer enough in the endgame. All of the teleport classes (Wizard/Druid/Mage) have the same problem. Their kit works well in the early game, and peters out in the end game. You basically use these classes to farm plat for a better class, or use their niche ability in raiding.

[PlsNoBan]

Once again more dps (50% more) is more useful than redundant extra heals and utility that are already covered. I agree with you more dps in a 2 charm group isn't a HUGE benefit. But it's much more beneficial than less dps and unnecessary heals/utility. You can keep saying shit like "its only 30 dps" all you want. Mage could do 2 dps. If Shaman only does 1 dps it's still 2x more. The scale doesn't matter it's the relative dps to other classes. Sorry this is such a hard concept for you to grasp. Maybe you'll get there someday.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Once again more dps (50% more) is more useful than redundant extra heals and utility that are already covered. I agree with you more dps in a 2 charm group isn't a HUGE benefit. But it's much more beneficial than less dps and unnecessary heals/utility. Sorry this is such a hard concept for you to grasp. Maybe you'll get there someday.

Thank you for agreeing with me on that point. Hopefully you will realize heals/utility have benefits to this party too. Keeping the Clerics/Enchanters focused on dealing with the pets is a benefit, since the Shaman can handle healing, slowing, etc. when necessary in any situation, and they can help stabilize an emergency better than a Mage.

From my experience groups make mistakes and wipe, even groups with highly experienced players. I would rather prevent the wipe than save a tiny bit of time on each kill. Wipes often times are group killers. If your group has been going for 3 hours and then wipe, you often times will end the session earlier than if you didn't. That's why the benefits of a Shaman are harder to quantify, because it depends on the players. But again, I have seen wipes end a party much more often than slightly slower kill speed. If you never wipe, you tend to play longer. Often times that evens out the time saved per kill, or ends up being better, depending on how much longer the session lasts.

[PlsNoBan]

So you've fallen back on "Shaman is better cause players might be bad"? That's probably the best argument you've ever made. However as has been stated many times we're assuming the players are good in this hypothetical situation. If we assume bad players then all bets are off and the shaman could also be bad and more detriment to the group than helpful. Like if he/she decided they wanted to pull a bunch of extra mobs to root rot for extra DPS then loses control of them.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So you've fallen back on "Shaman is better cause players might be bad"? That's probably the best argument you've ever made. However as has been stated many times we're assuming the players are good in this hypothetical situation. If we assume bad players then all bets are off and the shaman could also be bad and more detriment to the group than helpful. Like if he/she decided they wanted to pull a bunch of extra mobs to root rot for extra DPS then loses control of them.

I didn't say the players were bad. I am assuming the players are good in this situation.

I also didn't fall back on anything. What I said in my previous post has been part of my argument the entire time. The conversation has been more focused on DPS, that is the only reason why I haven't expanded on this part of my argument as often. But you can see me making this argument plenty of times in my earlier posts.

Even the best guilds wipe on raid bosses. Highly skilled players still make mistakes, or just get unlucky via RNG, lag, etc. I have never seen a player/group be perfect all the time. It just doesn't happen. This is why most people aren't claiming 4x Enchanters is the best group comp for OP's question. Technically that group doesn't need healing if played perfectly. In reality it does need healing because mistakes happen, or you get unlucky. That is one downside with playing an RNG game. You can just get really unlucky, and it's harder for skill to save you in those cases.

[PlsNoBan]

The cleric is there for when "mistakes happen" with the enchanters. A shaman in this situation is redundant as has been mentioned many times now. Do you understand what redundant means? Using that logic you should just fill the entire group with clerics just in case. It's less likely to cause a wipe with 3 clerics than 1 right? The cleric unlike a shaman can also rez if someone dies (including one of the other clerics). If DPS is truly unimportant why wouldn't you bring more heal power and an extra rez? Or better yet bring a necro instead who can heal in a pinch and rez and mez and do more damage?

[Chortles Snortles]

guys just join bad groups all the time and you’ll see the awesome power of shaman
(LOL)

[PlsNoBan]

It's true that a good shaman can do a lot to carry a bad group and correct a lot of mistakes. A group of 2+ encs and a cleric that are good at the game have almost no use for a shaman whatsoever outside of their mediocre dps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The cleric is there for when "mistakes happen" with the enchanters. A shaman in this situation is redundant as has been mentioned many times now. Do you understand what redundant means? Using that logic you should just fill the entire group with clerics just in case. It's less likely to cause a wipe with 3 clerics than 1 right? The cleric unlike a shaman can also rez if someone dies (including one of the other clerics). If DPS is truly unimportant why wouldn't you bring more heal power and an extra rez? Or better yet bring a necro instead who can heal in a pinch and rez and mez and do more damage?

I do understand what redundant means. You are only using it for Shamans though, and not the Mage. The Mage's DPS is also redundant, as you have admitted.

You are also taking my argument to the extreme by arguing for 4 clerics. That wouldn't work since you couldn't kill fast enough, which increases risk.

Basically there are two camps of thought here. You are the type of person who prefers higher risk, higher speed groups. I prefer more consistent groups. From my experience the higher risk higher speed groups tend to end up farther behind than the consistent groups. The higher risk, higher speed groups don't think so because it feels good when you are playing well, and you forget when you wipe or play bad.

The reason why Shaman wins here is because having a broader toolkit means your group can do more things. A third Enchanter, a Mage, or a Shaman are all redundant in a group with 2x Enchanters and a Cleric. The question is simply which redundancy you prefer. I prefer the redundancy that expands what the group can do, while reducing wipe chances. Consistency + better coverage of camps is a more powerful combination than simply slightly faster kill speeds.

[Ripqozko]

39 more pages of DSM non sense to hit 200, we almost there boys.

[Keebz]

The mage has a pet that can tank shit when charms get broken so you don't wipe. The shaman dog is like lvl 39 and torpor is both too slow and problematic on a summoned player. The only argument for shaman is, "you need torpor for x, because y". Feel free to make that argument, but there is no other added utility when you have 2 ench and a cleric. Mages have rods, coth, and DS, which is actual utility the ench/cleric don't provide.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The mage has a pet that can tank shit when charms get broken so you don't wipe. The shaman dog is like lvl 39 and torpor is both too slow and problematic on a summoned player. The only argument for shaman is, "you need torpor for x, because y". Feel free to make that argument, but there is no other added utility when you have 2 ench and a cleric. Mages have rods, coth, and DS, which is actual utility the ench/cleric don't provide.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - The Shaman pet can tank a Cliff Golem just fine, which is going to be a harder mob than anything you are chain pulling. With FoS the Shaman pet has close to 2500 HP. The Shaman can also tank, so the pet tanking argument doesn't work.

Shamans have Malo, which is better than Mala.

CoTH is rarely used in group settings. Most of the time you would need to have your Mage already set up somewhere, unless you are doing something like Chardok Royals. In a static 4 man if you wanted to stay at Juggs, everybody would just stay camped in Juggs. You wouldn't leave your Mage friend behind and play with the other 3 players.

Shamans save tons of mana because they can cast things like slows, heals, etc. This means the Cleric and Enchanters don't have to. That easily covers Mod Rods, which damage the player and require the Mage to spend mana on them.

Damage Shield is only 4-16 DPS roughly, depending on if the mob is slowed. That's not a lot of DPS. Remember than Enchanters also have a DS, so really the Mage is only increasing your DS DPS by 66%. In reality the Mage is only adding 2.5-10 DPS when taking that into account.

Finally, if you want to use the "players are playing perfectly" argument, then a Shaman can perfectly root/rot mobs, which is the same DPS output as a Mage. You can't have it both ways. You can't say a group is playing perfectly, but the Shaman can't root/rot in a scenario where the group is chain pulling easy mobs and playing perfectly.

[PlsNoBan]

You can't say a group is playing perfectly, but the Shaman can't root/rot in a scenario where the group is chain pulling easy mobs and playing perfectly.

You can though. Because root rotting mobs in a group is retarded.

[PlsNoBan]

The Mage's DPS is also redundant

DPS is never redundant. This is why I think you don't understand the word. DPS can be stacked infinitely. Healing/slows.etc do not stack if there's no hp to heal and the mob is already slowed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can though. Because root rotting mobs in a group is retarded.

Your preferences are irrelevant to the facts. If your group cares about DPS, they will maximize their DPS. Otherwise your group doesn't care as much about DPS.

DPS is never redundant. This is why I think you don't understand the word. DPS can be stacked infinitely. Healing/slows.etc do not stack if there's no hp to heal and the mob is already slowed.

You can heal multiple people at the same time with more healers, which is a benefit. There can be multiple people/pets damaged at the same time.

DPS loses efficiency as you stack more, because it gets harder and harder to significantly increase your DPS with a fixed setup like a four man group. Also, all of the content a four man group can kill doesn't have a ton of HP to begin with. DPS also loses efficiency when the mob has less HP, because the amount of time you save per kill is smaller. The difference in kill speed on a mob with 8000 HP is only about 5 seconds when comparing 222 DPS to 192 DPS.

It takes 9 minutes at 35 DPS to get a WW Dragon down to 20% - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_Pro4F0B0I .

If your group does 150 DPS, it will take 165 seconds to kill the mob (24750 / 150) = 165 seconds.

If your group does 180 DPS, it will take 138 seconds to kill the mob (24750 / 180) = 138 seconds.

As you can see, you are only saving 27 seconds by adding the extra 30 DPS on a fight that is already less than 3 minutes. Most of the time that is not going to matter when fighting harder mobs like WW Dragons due to respawn times and the number of available WW Dragons. It's better to ensure the kill by increasing safety instead of saving a few seconds on the kill. Losing the mob to other groups, or spending time recovering is going to be much worse than the benefit of killing the mob 27 seconds faster.

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/MLZRtP2.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let me show a simpler example.

Let's start out with a group that does 100 DPS.

When fighting a mob with 25000 HP, your group will kill the mob in 250 seconds.

If you doubled your DPS to 200, which isn't difficult, you will reduce the kill time to 125 seconds.

Doubling your DPS again to 400 would be much harder, and would reduce the kill time to 62.5 seconds.

As you can see, you get diminishing returns on time saved when it comes to adding DPS to your group. Getting to 200 DPS in a four man group is easy. 2x Enchanters with charmed pets is already around 170 DPS with hasted level 47 mobs. The other two members will easily get your group to the 200 DPS mark.

The only way to increase your DPS to 400 would be to bring 4x Enchanters, which most people agree is too risky. The additional 2 Enchanters are only saving half the time of the first 2 Enchanters (62 seconds vs. 125 seconds), while significantly increasing the risk of your group dying.

[PlsNoBan]

Would you rather have 1 extra DPS in your group or a second healer with nothing to heal? This is an easy fucking question DSM. I know you aren't too bright but I think you can figure this one out. A cleric isn't struggling to keep 2 decent/good enchanters alive. They don't need your help no matter how hard you want that to be the case.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Would you rather have 1 extra DPS in your group or a second healer with nothing to heal? This is an easy fucking question DSM. I know you aren't too bright but I think you can figure this one out. A cleric isn't struggling to keep 2 decent/good enchanters alive. They don't need your help no matter how hard you want that to be the case.

I would rather have a second healer any day of the week. The benefits you are getting from being able to heal two people at the same time is much better than 1 DPS. There is always the possibility of an emergency, even with highly experienced players. Shamans can do more than just healing though, so the benefits are even greater.

[Keebz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - The Shaman pet can tank a Cliff Golem just fine, which is going to be a harder mob than anything you are chain pulling. With FoS the Shaman pet has close to 2500 HP. The Shaman can also tank, so the pet tanking argument doesn't work.


In this theoretical group, shit like cliff golems and WW dragons are child's play so they are completely irrelevant. Trivial shit you can solo as a shaman isn't what we're talking about here.


Shamans have Malo, which is better than Mala.

It is slightly better (35 vs 45), but clearly not enough to justify the class.


CoTH is rarely used in group settings.


CoTH is extremely useful for pulling things. It is frankly broken. You just don't know about it apparently.


Shamans save tons of mana because they can cast things like slows, heals, etc. This means the Cleric and Enchanters don't have to. That easily covers Mod Rods, which damage the player and require the Mage to spend mana on them.


Saving some mana on slows and the occasional spot heal is irrelevant. Aside from the initial slow, the enchanters shouldn't be doing much and the cleric has spot heals covered. Mod rods get made ahead of time and cycled. Everyone will be at full mana for whatever fight you want.


Damage Shield is only 4-16 DPS roughly


Depends on the mob, once again, killing easy targets is not the plan.


Finally, if you want to use the "players are playing perfectly" argument, then a Shaman can perfectly root/rot mobs

No one is root rotting anything. You gotta stop with this idea you're farming gems in seb or something, because that's super trivial.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No one is root rotting anything. You gotta stop with this idea you're farming gems in seb or something, because that's super trivial.


Bring that up with the people using Sebilis trash as the primary thrust of this thread's discussion:) That wasn't my idea. Troxx brought Sebilis Crypt Trash as his data. Basically the pro-Mage team has been trying to diminish a Shaman's capabilities by forcing the conversation along the narrow line that the group is going to be constantly chain pulling trash mobs. If you want to break out of that discussion, then a Shaman's usefulness increases. I wouldn't mind going there at all.

In this theoretical group, shit like cliff golems and WW dragons are child's play so they are completely irrelevant. Trivial shit you can solo as a shaman isn't what we're talking about here.


Then you need to specify what you are talking about so we can run the numbers. The majority of this thread has been about chain pulling mobs you can kill in 30 seconds, which isn't mobs like Cliff Golems. A group with 2x Enchanters and a Mage would be doing around 270 DPS (170 from Enchanters, 100 DPS from Mage), which means you are killing a Cliff Golem in 30000 / 250 = 110 seconds. That is not a 30 second chain pulled mob.

At that length a Shaman can fully dot the Cliff Golem with Epic, Pox, and 2x Bane of Nife's for 62 DPS + 17.7 Pet DPS = 79.7 DPS. This doesn't including using JBB if you don't need to recover mana during the fight. The Shaman is also better at slowing the mob due to Malo. This is a fight where the Shaman would shine compared to a Mage, and you are only losing 20 DPS, which would save you a paltry 10 seconds on kill time. You would lose less DPS if the Shaman was JBB spamming after applying DoTs.



It is slightly better (35 vs 45), but clearly not enough to justify the class.


If the pet can tank a Cliff Golem, it can tank anything you can chain pull and kill in 30 seconds, which is what we were discussing.



CoTH is extremely useful for pulling things. It is frankly broken. You just don't know about it apparently.


I do know about about it. Why do you think I mentioned Chardok Royals? But it isn't necessary for most pulls that a 4 man group will do, especially for the chain pulling discussion.


Saving some mana on slows and the occasional spot heal is irrelevant. Aside from the initial slow, the enchanters shouldn't be doing much and the cleric has spot heals covered. Mod rods get made ahead of time and cycled. Everyone will be at full mana for whatever fight you want.


Mod Rods are lore, so your group would need to be managing them by dropping them and picking them up. It's a lot of work, especially if you are moving a lot, and not going to save that much mana. The Shaman is easily keeping up with that. If the Mage is constantly summoning Mod Rods, the Mage is losing DPS by not nuking as much due to spending mana and time on Mod Rods. You don't have a Necro in an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage group, so the Mage is only regenerating with meditate + C2.



Depends on the mob, once again, killing easy targets is not the plan.


A hard mob is going to be slowed, which means DS DPS is heavily diminished.

[Keebz]

I've consistently been talking about high end targets. The goal of the composition should be to increase the ceiling of what is possible. I don't see you making an argument for shaman lifting the ceiling anywhere.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I've consistently been talking about high end targets. The goal of the composition should be to increase the ceiling of what is possible. I don't see you making an argument for shaman lifting the ceiling anywhere.

Ah I must have missed that somewhere. Everybody else has been discussing chain pulling.

I have mentioned high end targets multiple times. I have used Ixiblat Fer and Fungi King as examples. If you can think of harder targets a 4 man caster/priest group can do, please let us know.

I agree we should be talking about high end targets. But there a Shaman is even better.

In a group where you are killing a hard mob in 120 seconds, the DPS difference between a Mage and a Shaman shrinks to 20 DPS on an unslowed mob because a Shaman can use their DoTs to full effect. Hard mobs are probably going to be slowed, so the DPS window really shrinks to about 10 DPS (less hits = less DS damage), which is basically nothing. Shamans have the superior Malo, the superior slow to Enchanters, and the superior ability to tank with Torpor. There is literally nothing a Mage brings to the table on a hard target other than 10 DPS and CoTH. A Mage easily loses on most hard targets, unless you are doing something like Chardok Royals where you are using CoTH as a pull strategy.

[Chortles Snortles]

RoOt RoT DPS LFG
(LOL)

[PlsNoBan]

Symptoms of Autism Spectrum Disorder / Asperger's Syndrome:

Tendency to think of issues as being black and white, rather than considering multiple perspectives in a flexible way

They have difficulty with semantics, such as understanding the meaning of words within different contexts. They may not understand that you “love” pizza in a different way than you “love” your mother.

They have an obsessive, consuming interest in one subject, to the exclusion of others. Examples include knowing every fact possible about The Beatles, the Federal Papers, Buddhism, train schedules, cycling, the stock market or Star Trek. Their obsessive interest may even be something that could land them in hot water, such as explosives, deviant sexual interests, computer hacking or firearms. A celebrity (or even YOU) could become their special interest and experience unwanted attention, harassment or stalking.

They can come across as “The Professor,” because they have a tendency to go into long, pedantic monologues about their obsessive interest, not recognizing the other person is bored or isn’t being given a chance to speak.

They come across as arrogant.

They cannot “read between the lines,” so they interpret everything literally. Their thinking is concrete.

They have difficulty in generalizing. This is known as the “forest through the trees” issue, or, more aptly for someone with AS, the trees through the leaves.

When they hear a difference of opinion or an attempt to explain a different perspective about a situation, they become defensive because they see it as conflict, or a criticism of who they are. They can become quite defensive when asked for clarification or a little sympathy. The defensiveness can turn into verbal abuse as the man with AS attempts to control the communication to suit his view of the world.

They are always right. ALWAYS. They will frequently say that you are being irrational or illogical.

You often find their behavior exasperating or even infuriating. You may find yourself saying, “You’re not listening to me!” or “You don’t understand. You think you do, but you don’t” or “That’s not what I was saying; you’ve come to the wrong conclusion,” but they will continue insisting that they do understand, perhaps telling you that you’re the one who doesn’t understand—even when it is your own experience or feelings that you were trying to convey. This is the main thing that frustrates partners of people with AS. First, it’s the lack of understanding and empathy; then it’s the lack of being able to understand that they don’t understand; and then it’s the insistence that they do understand and that you’re the one who doesn’t get it. You will feel that they don’t really “know” you or “see” you (they don’t; they aren’t able to), and you will be unable to resolve any conflict you have with them.

Although they may first appear to be highly intelligent, you will notice that their knowledge is restricted to a few narrow subjects and is quite lacking in a general sense. Among individuals with Asperger’s, those with high intelligence are a minority (just as they are in the general population). Their reputation of being highly intelligent is a myth.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

RoOt RoT DPS LFG
(LOL)

You claim to care about DPS, but you don't want your group members to DPS (lol).


Yelling randomly about autism.


PlsNoBan is back to yelling about autism as a derogatory remark because he lost the debate (again).

[PlsNoBan]

PlsNoBan is back to yelling about autism as a derogatory remark because he lost the debate (again).

They are always right. ALWAYS.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am not always right. The data is simply in my favor for this discussion. The math isn't hard, and easy to double check yourself.

[PlsNoBan]

I am not always right. The data is simply in my favor for this discussion. The math isn't hard, and easy to double check yourself.

Although they may first appear to be highly intelligent, you will notice that their knowledge is restricted to a few narrow subjects and is quite lacking in a general sense.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Enjoy increasing your unfortunate post history by claiming anybody who disagrees with you is autistic. That is your most favored method of argumentation.

Chortles Snortles is just trolling again, as usual.

[Chortles Snortles]

GUYS ROOT ROTTING ADDS IS LEGITIMATE DPS OVER ANY OTHER CASTER
(lol)

[PlsNoBan]

Enjoy increasing your unfortunate post history by claiming anybody who disagrees with you is autistic. That is your most favored method of argumentation.

When they hear a difference of opinion or an attempt to explain a different perspective about a situation, they become defensive because they see it as conflict, or a criticism of who they are.

[Gloomlord]

I love how DSM keeps resorting to root rotting whenever mage DPS is undeniably better.

As if 2 enchanters would want some moron off at the sides root rotting, rather than a mage increasing the kill speed on one mob.

[Karanis]

30 DPS

20 DPS

10 DPS

18616

18617

[Karanis]

Also, no one is saying you couldn't theoretically meet or surpass mage dps by root-rotting non-high level Sebilis mobs (certainly not ilis frogs or wizards) off to the side.

We're saying most 4-man caster groups would rather have a largely irrelevant mage increasing single target dps as the enchanter pets melt 1 mob at a time, along with their other perks; than an almost entirely irrelevant shaman off-healing OR doing some dumbass root-rotting of adds off to the side in order to dps.

Just to reiterate, it's possible, it's just retarded.

[Gloomlord]

If the shaman plans on root rotting, why is he even in this hypothetical group to begin with?

Does DSM have such a narrow minded view in his pathetic quest to prove how good shamans are?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am glad to see people are now admitting the fourth member's DPS is irrelevant.

Now that DPS is off the table, Mage's have nothing to offer. Shamans have superior charm break safety, and superior Malo capabilities.

Unless you need CoTH, there really is no reason for a Mage.

If you prefer a Mage over a Shaman, that is fine, nobody has ever said you can't have a preference.

[Gloomlord]

I am glad to see people are now admitting the fourth member's DPS is irrelevant.

We never said that DPS was irrelevant, you blithering lunatic!

Why do you keep lying?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We never said that DPS was irrelevant, you blithering lunatic!

Why do you keep lying?

I am not lying, and insults aren't helping your case.

I agree with you more dps in a 2 charm group isn't a HUGE benefit.

Indeed.


We're saying most 4-man caster groups would rather have a largely irrelevant mage increasing single target dps.

I agree the Mage is largely irrelevant, but I disagree with the statement that people care about the single target DPS. The increase is quite small, as has been shown many times.


As if 2 enchanters would want some moron off at the sides root rotting, rather than a mage increasing the kill speed on one mob.

If you don't want your group members increasing your groups DPS when killing trash, you don't care about DPS. Your preference on how DPS happens is irrelevant.

[PlsNoBan]

Also, no one is saying you couldn't theoretically meet or surpass mage dps by root-rotting non-high level Sebilis mobs (certainly not ilis frogs or wizards) off to the side.

We're saying most 4-man caster groups would rather have a largely irrelevant mage increasing single target dps as the enchanter pets melt 1 mob at a time, along with their other perks; than an almost entirely irrelevant shaman off-healing OR doing some dumbass root-rotting of adds off to the side in order to dps.

Just to reiterate, it's possible, it's just retarded.

If the shaman plans on root rotting, why is he even in this hypothetical group to begin with?

Does DSM have such a narrow minded view in his pathetic quest to prove how good shamans are?

We never said that DPS was irrelevant, you blithering lunatic!

Why do you keep lying?

Symptoms of Autism Spectrum Disorder / Asperger's Syndrome:

Tendency to think of issues as being black and white, rather than considering multiple perspectives in a flexible way

They have difficulty with semantics, such as understanding the meaning of words within different contexts. They may not understand that you “love” pizza in a different way than you “love” your mother.

They have an obsessive, consuming interest in one subject, to the exclusion of others. Examples include knowing every fact possible about The Beatles, the Federal Papers, Buddhism, train schedules, cycling, the stock market or Star Trek. Their obsessive interest may even be something that could land them in hot water, such as explosives, deviant sexual interests, computer hacking or firearms. A celebrity (or even YOU) could become their special interest and experience unwanted attention, harassment or stalking.

They can come across as “The Professor,” because they have a tendency to go into long, pedantic monologues about their obsessive interest, not recognizing the other person is bored or isn’t being given a chance to speak.

They come across as arrogant.

They cannot “read between the lines,” so they interpret everything literally. Their thinking is concrete.

They have difficulty in generalizing. This is known as the “forest through the trees” issue, or, more aptly for someone with AS, the trees through the leaves.

When they hear a difference of opinion or an attempt to explain a different perspective about a situation, they become defensive because they see it as conflict, or a criticism of who they are. They can become quite defensive when asked for clarification or a little sympathy. The defensiveness can turn into verbal abuse as the man with AS attempts to control the communication to suit his view of the world.

They are always right. ALWAYS. They will frequently say that you are being irrational or illogical.

You often find their behavior exasperating or even infuriating. You may find yourself saying, “You’re not listening to me!” or “You don’t understand. You think you do, but you don’t” or “That’s not what I was saying; you’ve come to the wrong conclusion,” but they will continue insisting that they do understand, perhaps telling you that you’re the one who doesn’t understand—even when it is your own experience or feelings that you were trying to convey. This is the main thing that frustrates partners of people with AS. First, it’s the lack of understanding and empathy; then it’s the lack of being able to understand that they don’t understand; and then it’s the insistence that they do understand and that you’re the one who doesn’t get it. You will feel that they don’t really “know” you or “see” you (they don’t; they aren’t able to), and you will be unable to resolve any conflict you have with them.

Although they may first appear to be highly intelligent, you will notice that their knowledge is restricted to a few narrow subjects and is quite lacking in a general sense. Among individuals with Asperger’s, those with high intelligence are a minority (just as they are in the general population). Their reputation of being highly intelligent is a myth.

Several applicable lines. Just choose your favorite one.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Several applicable lines. Just choose your favorite one.

Are you trying to get your autism insults back to 1 in 3 posts out of hundreds? I am not sure that is a record you want to try and beat.

[Karanis]

Also, no one is saying you couldn't theoretically meet or surpass mage dps by root-rotting non-high level Sebilis mobs (certainly not ilis frogs or wizards) off to the side.

We're saying most 4-man caster groups would rather have a largely irrelevant mage increasing single target dps as the enchanter pets melt 1 mob at a time, along with their other perks; than an almost entirely irrelevant shaman off-healing OR doing some dumbass root-rotting of adds off to the side in order to dps.

Just to reiterate, it's possible, it's just retarded.

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/zY1Yoic.gif

Please let me know when I get my ratio back. I know you can't go very long without doing math.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please let me know when I get my ratio back. I know you can't go very long without doing math.

It isn't hurting me. You simply continue to make yourself look bad by insulting everybody who disagrees with you. That isn't how you win an argument.

[Gloomlord]

Insults aren't helping our case?

Respectful decorum isn't helping our case either, considering how much of a pathological liar you are.

I can see DSM's mindset: whenever we point out a hole in one of his arguments, he then points how his argument *IS* sound, because we weren't paying attention to all variables. However, his counter arguments completely ignore how niche and unlikely they are, like root rotting and Ixiblat. We point this out to him, but then he suggests "data" is on his side, even though that "data" is completely skewed and, once again, niche and unlikely.

It's a revolving circle of insanity, until we all get fed up with him and leave. Then, after it's all done, he will self-deceive himself into thinking he has "won".

Autistic? I'm not sure. Solipsistic, psychotic man-child? You bet!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Insults aren't helping our case?

Respectful decorum isn't helping our case either, considering how much of a pathological liar you are.

I can see DSM's mindset: whenever we point out a hole in one of his arguments, he then points how his argument *IS* sound, because we weren't paying attention to all variables. However, his counter arguments completely ignore how niche and unlikely they are, like root rotting and Ixiblat. We point this out to him, but then he suggests "data" is on his side, even though that "data" is completely skewed and, once again, niche and unlikely.

It's a revolving circle of insanity, until we all get fed up with him and leave. Then, after it's all done, he will self-deceive himself into thinking he has "won".

Autistic? I'm not sure. Solipsistic, psychotic man-child? You bet!

The only people engaging in a niche argument are you guys. You are forcing the argument to be "groups are only chain pulling mobs that die in 30 seconds, and they also don't want Shamans to root/rot", because the DPS gap between Shamans and Mages is a bit higher in that specific situation. In any situation where you are just chain pulling trash, you can root/rot lol. Nobody cares if you don't prefer that method. If you want more DPS out of your group, you would do that.

Level 60 characters aren't just chain pulling trash mobs in Sebilis, as many people other than myself have pointed out.

When doing single target, harder mobs, the gap between Shaman DPS and Mage DPS shrinks to about 10 DPS if the mob is slowed. But you never want to talk about that, because it gets out of your niche argument that level 60 groups are only chain pulling trash in Sebilis.

The insults don't help your case at all (they make you look bad), and the post history is clear.

[Karanis]

3 friends are going hiking, each of them bring something they'll need.

1 friend brings shoes for the 3 of them
1 friend brings walking sticks for the 3 of them
1 friend brings food and water for the 3 of them

2 more friends ask to potentially join them but they can only bring 1.

Option 1 can bring his own shoes, stick, food, and water, but also GPS, a map, playing cards, and a tent

Option 2 can bring his own shoes, stick, food, and water, but also a snack that the original 3 are allergic to, and a harmonica that he doesn't know how to play.

[PlsNoBan]

The post history is clear and it says I am dumb

[Gloomlord]

To say that shamans could be root rotting on the side of a chain pulling xp group is like saying that a wizard and a bard in the same six man group could be quadding down some greens or low blues on the side of the real juicy targets the other 4 are doing.

It is, as Karanis said, completely retarded. Nobody sane would do such a thing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To say that shamans could be root rotting on the side of a chain pulling xp group is like saying that a wizard and a bard in the same six man group could be quadding down some greens or low blues on the side of the real juicy targets the other 4 are doing.

It is, as Karanis said, completely retarded. Nobody sane would do such a thing.

Again, your preference is irrelevant. If you care about DPS, you would increase it however you can. A Shaman can Root/Rot trash.

When you aren't fighting trash (targets that take longer than 30 seconds to kill), the DPS gap between Shamans and Mages shrinks to 10 DPS.

The reality is you get diminishing returns as you increase DPS, as I showed before.

If your group has 100 DPS and a mob has 8000 HP, the mob takes 80 seconds to kill.

If your group has 200 DPS and a mob has 8000 HP, the mob takes 40 seconds to kill. (Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric)

If your group has 230 DPS and a mob has 8000 HP, the mob takes 35 seconds to kill. (Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric)

A 5 second increase in kill speed means very little in reality, because you are typically restricted on how many kills you get per hour by respawn timers.

A Shaman's broader toolkit is going to be much more helpful in more situations than saving 5 seconds on a kill.

[Gloomlord]

It must be so nice for you, DSM. Being able to pick and choose parts of reality, and then deny all the rest.

It enables you to endure yourself, does it not?

Do you not realise that this 5 fewer seconds is going to add up of the course of an hour or more? And if we take human limitations of stamina into consideration, then mage is completely beating shaman here.

Do you not understand, you imbecile, that root rotting some trash on the side is just you pathetically trying in vain to justify the spot for shaman?

A wizard and a bard, as I have pointed out, could be doing AoE kiting on the side in Seb. You think the other 4 members of this group and going to appreciate this, even if they could "function normally" regardless?

[Karanis]

3 friends are going hiking, each of them bring something they'll need.

1 friend brings shoes for the 3 of them
1 friend brings walking sticks for the 3 of them
1 friend brings food and water for the 3 of them

2 more friends ask to potentially join them but they can only bring 1.

Option 1 can bring his own shoes, stick, food, and water, but also GPS, a map, playing cards, and a tent

Option 2 can bring his own shoes, stick, food, and water, but also a snack that the original 3 are allergic to, and a harmonica that he doesn't know how to play.

[Karanis]

You picking option 2 DSM?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Do you not realise that this 5 fewer seconds is going to add up of the course of an hour or more? And if we take human limitations of stamina into consideration, then mage is completely beating shaman here.


Not going to respond to your other nonsense.

I am taking this into consideration. If you are killng 20 mobs per 30 minute respawn cycle, you save 100 seconds per cycle. That means you are saving 3 minutes per hour. To get an extra cycle out of that, you would need to play for 10 hours lol. I am indeed including human limitations. I am not going to pick a Mage on the off chance we play for 10 hours straight.

[Karanis]

3 friends are going hiking, each of them bring something they'll need.

1 friend brings shoes for the 3 of them
1 friend brings walking sticks for the 3 of them
1 friend brings food and water for the 3 of them

2 more friends ask to potentially join them but they can only bring 1.

Option 1 can bring his own shoes, stick, food, and water, but also GPS, a map, playing cards, and a tent

Option 2 can bring his own shoes, stick, food, and water, but also a snack that the original 3 are allergic to, and a harmonica that he doesn't know how to play.

You picking option 2 DSM?

[Gloomlord]

Yes, but DSM seems to think shaman is the former, rather than the latter.

He thinks Torpor is the equivalent of that GPS.

[Gloomlord]

Not going to respond to your other nonsense.

I am taking this into consideration. If you are killng 20 mobs per 30 minute respawn cycle, you save 100 seconds per cycle. That means you are saving 3 minutes per hour. To get an extra cycle out of that, you would need to play for 10 hours lol. I am indeed including human limitations. I am not going to pick a Mage on the off chance we play for 10 hours straight.

Don't you dare, you disgusting hypocrite, to say what I was saying as "nonsense".

We've been putting up with your bullshit for so long now.

You know I'm right about the wizard and bard analogy, you pathetic little shit.

[Karanis]

Little does he know, that Torpor is the harmonica, and the snack they're allergic to is his root-rotting :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Don't you dare, you disgusting hypocrite, to say what I was saying as "nonsense".

We've been putting up with your bullshit for so long now.

You know I'm right about the wizard and bard analogy, you pathetic little shit.

You probably need to stop posting. You are very angry right now because I disproved another point of yours.

[Gloomlord]

You probably need to stop posting. You are very angry right now because I disproved another point of yours.

We're all either very angry with you, or find you amusing -- like one would find a village idiot amusing.

Neither of which looks good for you.

So I should get two people in a 6 man exp group to do "mobs on the side" that the other 4 are doing? Genius, DSM! Why didn't we all think of that before?

You didn't disprove anything, child. Keep deceiving yourself.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We're all either very angry with you, or find you amusing -- like one would find a village idiot amusing.

Neither of which looks good for you.

So I should get two people in a 6 man exp group to do "mobs on the side" that the other 4 are doing? Genius, DSM! Why didn't we all think of that before?

You didn't disprove anything, child. Keep deceiving yourself.

I don't find it amusing at all. But you being angry doesn't mean you are right. That doesn't grant you some mystic authority over the discussion.

"I am right and you are wrong because you are autistic" is not an argument. You can bring data to back up your points or stop posting at any time.

[Karanis]

Yo

3 friends are going hiking, each of them bring something they'll need.

1 friend brings shoes for the 3 of them
1 friend brings walking sticks for the 3 of them
1 friend brings food and water for the 3 of them

2 more friends ask to potentially join them but they can only bring 1.

Option 1 can bring his own shoes, stick, food, and water, but also GPS, a map, playing cards, and a tent

Option 2 can bring his own shoes, stick, food, and water, but also a snack that the original 3 are allergic to, and a harmonica that he doesn't know how to play.

You picking option 2 DSM?

[Gloomlord]

Did I proclaim that my anger gave me "mystic authority"? What the fuck?

I'm saying you pointing out that I'm angry is just a pathetic ad hominem on your behalf.

Also, I never called you autistic once in this thread, you idiot. That was Plsnoban.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did I proclaim that my anger gave me "mystic authority"? What the fuck?

I'm saying you pointing out that I'm angry is just a pathetic ad hominem on your behalf.

Also, I never called you autistic once in this thread, you idiot. That was Plsnoban.

Yes, you do believe you have some mystic authority over this discussion. You think you are right, and also think that means you don't have to bring data to back up your points. You are not exempt from this. If what I am saying is obviously wrong, it should be trivial to back up your claims with evidence.

And you have insulted me plenty, don't try to hide it.

[Gloomlord]

https://c.tenor.com/GsToGcyQgDQAAAAC/dr-who-youre-insane.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No. I simply live in reality, where "I am right and you are wrong" is not a valid argument. If you think I am wrong, you need to provide evidence. Otherwise the argument is simply a he-said-she-said, where nobody wins. The number of people who agree with you in this situation is irrelevant, as they could be wrong.

[cyxthryth]

in reality


All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.

as the data shows


You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.


How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.


No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

[Karanis]

18618

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/M0aDnrC.gif

[Karanis]

18619

[Chortles Snortles]

No. I simply live in reality, where "I am right and you are wrong" is not a valid argument. If you think I am wrong, you need to provide evidence. Otherwise the argument is simply a he-said-she-said, where nobody wins. The number of people who agree with you in this situation is irrelevant, as they could be wrong.

https://i.imgur.com/CzSD7bc.jpg

[Karanis]

Option 2 can bring his own shoes, stick, food, and water, but also a snack that the original 3 are allergic to, and a harmonica that he doesn't know how to play.

[Troxx]

Wow this is still going on?

[Karanis]

200 baby
18620

[Toxigen]

Dear Diary,

Over this Labor Day weekend I contributed to a 168 page elf sim thread arguing for the value of a shaman in a 4 man caster group. I presented my data which supported a shaman doing as much damage as a mage.

It seems as though my fellow elves do not agree with me. Yet the data simply shows I am correct. I wonder why this is? How can I post more to convince my colleagues that I am correct in everything I say on elforums?

I cannot think of a better way to spend a long weekend. Surely I will prevail.

Until next time, diary.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The trolls keep trolling, instead of backing up their points.

Reposting an overview of the discussion. This is the data given, so it is all we can use. It would be great if someone else posted some data.

============================Mage DPS===================================

This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt:

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

According to Troxx, his pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58.

Average pet DPS: (36 + 50 + 45 + 51 + 30 + 49 + 56 + 60 + 55) / 9 = 48 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick sitting and 12 mana per tick standing. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. Let's assume the Mage has Conjuration Specialization. This reduces the cost to 248. Since the Mage will most likely lose 1 meditation tick due to the 6 second cast time, the mana cost goes back up to 268, to account for the 20 mana lost from not meditating. This means you can cast Shock of Steel 80 times per hour, assuming that is the only thing you do.

Troxx's average casts per individual fight: (5 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 8) / 9 = 5. To pull this off, that means he is spending 1340 - 290 (9 med ticks + 1 standing tick) = 1050 mana per encounter. After 3 encounters he would be out of mana, so there is no way he can sustain the DPS numbers provided. This is why we use the average of 1 nuke per minute, as it is not realistic to be nuking at a high DPS consistently. 74.22 is also close to the overall encounter of 80 DPS, so there is no reason to doubt the individual sets vs. the whole set.

Average player DPS without clickies: (825 damage x 80 nukes) / 3600 seconds = 18.33 DPS.

Using a https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which is a level 49 Sebilis mob and similar to Crypt mobs, an unslowed mob did 74 hits in 144 seconds. (74 x 33) / 144 = 16.95 DPS

Slowing the same mob above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E , the DPS of the damage shield is reduced to 3.9 DPS. 26 hits x 33 Damge over 220 seconds = 3.9 DPS. This makes sense, since the mob was slowed 75%, and 4 is 25% of 16.

Average Damage Shield DPS: 16.95 DPS.

Average Damage Shield DPS with slow: 3.9 DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 16.95 = 83.28 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 24.66 + 16.95 = 89.61 DPS

Average Total DPS without clickies on a slowed mob: 48 + 18.33 + 3.9 = 70.23 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling on a slowed mob: 48 + 35.29 + 3.9 = 87.19 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff on a slowed mob: 48 + 24.66 + 3.9 = 76.56 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 11.45 = 77.78 DPS
The Direct damage number is lower because you would realistically only be able to nuke once per minute due to mana, so ((825 * 0.5) / 36) = 11.45 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 16.66 + 16.95 = 81.61 DPS
The DPS is halved on this due to it being difficult to realistically get two 17 second casts off in 36 seconds.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 18.5 + 16.95 = 83.45 DPS

============================Shaman DPS===================================

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Shaman Torpor Mana Recovery Video.

Pet DPS is using a max level pet with Celerity (50% haste), Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Average pet DPS: 7321 damage over 414 seconds = 17.7 DPS

A Shaman with max Torpor and Clarity II is regenerating mana at rougly 16 mana per second. Let's assume this Shaman has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (16 x 3600) + 3000 = 60600.

Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt cost 745 mana total. This means you could cast this combination 81 a maximum of times per hour. You would not be using Conjuraton Specialization typically, so the number doesn't change.

Average player DPS without clickies (Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt): ((1648 + 1278) x 60) / 3600 seconds = 48.76 DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS without clickies: 17.7 + 48.76 = 66.46 DPS

Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS

Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies (2x Ice Strike): 17.7 + 37.5 = 55.2 DPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman Quick DPS video, logs are attached in description.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with JBB: 17.7 + 29.22 = 46.92 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with 1x JBB and 1x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 35.25 = 52.95 DPS
This would be a bit more mana efficient than 2x Ice Strikes, could do more DPS if the mob takes longer to kill, and is the same cast time as 2x Ice Strikes.

============================Difference in DPS===================================

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 83.28 DPS (Mage) - 66.46 DPS (Shaman) = 26.82 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 100.24 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 19.54 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies on a slowed mob: 87.19 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 6.49 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference without clickies: 77.78 DPS (Mage) - 55.2 DPS (Shaman) = 22.58 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS

The Difference is between 6.49 DPS and 30.5 DPS, depending on the setup of the Mage vs. the Shaman, the killspeed, and if a mob is slowed.

============================Conclusion============ =======================

The reason for this breakdown is because the debate is choosing between Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric or Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric for OP's question. The argument for Mage is DPS + Malo + Charm Break Safety.

A Shaman has both Charm Break Safety (Pet + Torpor) and a better Malo -> Malosini chance, due to Malo being better than Mala. This is why they are much better at high end level 60 camps such as Ixiblat Fer, Fungi King, Cliff Golems, West Waste Dragons, etc. They can tank better and they can slow better. This is also where Shamans can increase their DPS, since a mob with more HP is going to take longer to kill. This means you can use your DoTs to full effect.

When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 7-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage, depending on the situation. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS at best. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. If your group is killing 20 mobs on a 30 minute timer, you are saving roughly 3 minutes per hour. To get an extra mob cycle, you would need to be at that camp for 10 hours. DPS loses efficiency as you stack more. For example, 2x Enchanters and 2x other group members would easily have a total of 200 DPS. At 200 DPS, it takes 40 seconds to kill a mob with 8000 HP. If you simply had 4x Enchanters to increase your DPS to 400, you would only decrease the kill time to 20 seconds. Even though you doubled your DPS, you only got half of the time decrease.

The other debate that spawned was whether to take a Shaman or not based on them being less useful at low levels. It is true Shamans don't come into their own until level 30 or so, but this is true for Enchanters and clerics too. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3499420&postcount=1273 This post shows a level 24 warrior out-DPSing a level 27 charmed pet with 37% haste and a Torch. Enchanter charm isn't as powerful as people think at lower levels, plus Enchanters have to deal with more meditating, lower mana pool, more fizzles, more interrupts, resists, etc. The 2x Enchanters in this group aren't going to be as good as melees with 2k worth of gear. The cleric is also going to bring fairly little to the table. This shouldn't deter you from bringing these classes, as they are well worth the wait once you get to level 30 or so. Luckily leveling from 1-30 is going to be super easy with any group of 4, so this shouldn't be a big consideration.

Finally, this debate is looking at all level ranges, from 1-60, including level 60 item farming. It is up to the user to decide whether they want to pick a Mage for slightly faster kill speeds from levels 1-60 and during level 60 farming, or pick a Shaman for their superior utility and safety. This is very useful when farming level 60 camps like Fungi King and Ixiblat Fer. Honestly a group of 4 casters is already going to level extremely quickly, so I do not believe the Mage is worth it. A slightly better leveling experience does not make up for a Mage bringing very little at the end. OP has already chosen his group (Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage), so it is a draw in terms of the debate. I personally would go for Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric.

[Chortles Snortles]

https://i.imgur.com/CzSD7bc.jpg

[PlsNoBan]

A whole bunch of stupid bullshit

https://i.imgur.com/qVI1UBR.gif

https://i.imgur.com/dOjAIai.gif

Seriously DSM. You've convinced no one. Everyone thinks you're at the very least wrong. Many think extremely dumb and stubborn posting almost 600 times in direct opposition to any kind of common sense. Why keep posting? Do you really believe you're gonna change minds here? You haven't in 600 posts. You think 700 will do the trick?

[Gloomlord]

I'm convinced DSM is insane in some fashion. He's ready to die on this hill over something so inconsequential.

It'd be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

[PlsNoBan]

I'm convinced DSM is insane in some fashion. He's ready to die on this hill over something so inconsequential.

It'd be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

It's still pretty funny

inb4 post about how "post history is clear" and we just insult him and don't have any data

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only sad thing is people who can't admit they are wrong in the face of basic math and data.

Reposting an overview of the discussion. This is the data given, so it is all we can use. It would be great if someone else posted some data.

============================Mage DPS===================================

This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt:

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

According to Troxx, his pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58.

Average pet DPS: (36 + 50 + 45 + 51 + 30 + 49 + 56 + 60 + 55) / 9 = 48 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick sitting and 12 mana per tick standing. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. Let's assume the Mage has Conjuration Specialization. This reduces the cost to 248. Since the Mage will most likely lose 1 meditation tick due to the 6 second cast time, the mana cost goes back up to 268, to account for the 20 mana lost from not meditating. This means you can cast Shock of Steel 80 times per hour, assuming that is the only thing you do.

Troxx's average casts per individual fight: (5 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 8) / 9 = 5. To pull this off, that means he is spending 1340 - 290 (9 med ticks + 1 standing tick) = 1050 mana per encounter. After 3 encounters he would be out of mana, so there is no way he can sustain the DPS numbers provided. This is why we use the average of 1 nuke per minute, as it is not realistic to be nuking at a high DPS consistently. 74.22 is also close to the overall encounter of 80 DPS, so there is no reason to doubt the individual sets vs. the whole set.

Average player DPS without clickies: (825 damage x 80 nukes) / 3600 seconds = 18.33 DPS.

Using a https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which is a level 49 Sebilis mob and similar to Crypt mobs, an unslowed mob did 74 hits in 144 seconds. (74 x 33) / 144 = 16.95 DPS

Slowing the same mob above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E , the DPS of the damage shield is reduced to 3.9 DPS. 26 hits x 33 Damge over 220 seconds = 3.9 DPS. This makes sense, since the mob was slowed 75%, and 4 is 25% of 16.

Average Damage Shield DPS: 16.95 DPS.

Average Damage Shield DPS with slow: 3.9 DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 16.95 = 83.28 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 24.66 + 16.95 = 89.61 DPS

Average Total DPS without clickies on a slowed mob: 48 + 18.33 + 3.9 = 70.23 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling on a slowed mob: 48 + 35.29 + 3.9 = 87.19 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff on a slowed mob: 48 + 24.66 + 3.9 = 76.56 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 11.45 = 77.78 DPS
The Direct damage number is lower because you would realistically only be able to nuke once per minute due to mana, so ((825 * 0.5) / 36) = 11.45 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 16.66 + 16.95 = 81.61 DPS
The DPS is halved on this due to it being difficult to realistically get two 17 second casts off in 36 seconds.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 18.5 + 16.95 = 83.45 DPS

============================Shaman DPS===================================

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Shaman Torpor Mana Recovery Video.

Pet DPS is using a max level pet with Celerity (50% haste), Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Average pet DPS: 7321 damage over 414 seconds = 17.7 DPS

A Shaman with max Torpor and Clarity II is regenerating mana at rougly 16 mana per second. Let's assume this Shaman has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (16 x 3600) + 3000 = 60600.

Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt cost 745 mana total. This means you could cast this combination 81 a maximum of times per hour. You would not be using Conjuraton Specialization typically, so the number doesn't change.

Average player DPS without clickies (Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt): ((1648 + 1278) x 60) / 3600 seconds = 48.76 DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS without clickies: 17.7 + 48.76 = 66.46 DPS

Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS

Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies (2x Ice Strike): 17.7 + 37.5 = 55.2 DPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman Quick DPS video, logs are attached in description.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with JBB: 17.7 + 29.22 = 46.92 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with 1x JBB and 1x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 35.25 = 52.95 DPS
This would be a bit more mana efficient than 2x Ice Strikes, could do more DPS if the mob takes longer to kill, and is the same cast time as 2x Ice Strikes.

============================Difference in DPS===================================

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 83.28 DPS (Mage) - 66.46 DPS (Shaman) = 26.82 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 100.24 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 19.54 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies on a slowed mob: 87.19 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 6.49 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference without clickies: 77.78 DPS (Mage) - 55.2 DPS (Shaman) = 22.58 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS

The Difference is between 6.49 DPS and 30.5 DPS, depending on the setup of the Mage vs. the Shaman, the killspeed, and if a mob is slowed.

============================Conclusion============ =======================

The reason for this breakdown is because the debate is choosing between Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric or Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric for OP's question. The argument for Mage is DPS + Malo + Charm Break Safety.

A Shaman has both Charm Break Safety (Pet + Torpor) and a better Malo -> Malosini chance, due to Malo being better than Mala. This is why they are much better at high end level 60 camps such as Ixiblat Fer, Fungi King, Cliff Golems, West Waste Dragons, etc. They can tank better and they can slow better. This is also where Shamans can increase their DPS, since a mob with more HP is going to take longer to kill. This means you can use your DoTs to full effect.

When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 7-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage, depending on the situation. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS at best. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. If your group is killing 20 mobs on a 30 minute timer, you are saving roughly 3 minutes per hour. To get an extra mob cycle, you would need to be at that camp for 10 hours. DPS loses efficiency as you stack more. For example, 2x Enchanters and 2x other group members would easily have a total of 200 DPS. At 200 DPS, it takes 40 seconds to kill a mob with 8000 HP. If you simply had 4x Enchanters to increase your DPS to 400, you would only decrease the kill time to 20 seconds. Even though you doubled your DPS, you only got half of the time decrease.

The other debate that spawned was whether to take a Shaman or not based on them being less useful at low levels. It is true Shamans don't come into their own until level 30 or so, but this is true for Enchanters and clerics too. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3499420&postcount=1273 This post shows a level 24 warrior out-DPSing a level 27 charmed pet with 37% haste and a Torch. Enchanter charm isn't as powerful as people think at lower levels, plus Enchanters have to deal with more meditating, lower mana pool, more fizzles, more interrupts, resists, etc. The 2x Enchanters in this group aren't going to be as good as melees with 2k worth of gear. The cleric is also going to bring fairly little to the table. This shouldn't deter you from bringing these classes, as they are well worth the wait once you get to level 30 or so. Luckily leveling from 1-30 is going to be super easy with any group of 4, so this shouldn't be a big consideration.

Finally, this debate is looking at all level ranges, from 1-60, including level 60 item farming. It is up to the user to decide whether they want to pick a Mage for slightly faster kill speeds from levels 1-60 and during level 60 farming, or pick a Shaman for their superior utility and safety. This is very useful when farming level 60 camps like Fungi King and Ixiblat Fer. Honestly a group of 4 casters is already going to level extremely quickly, so I do not believe the Mage is worth it. A slightly better leveling experience does not make up for a Mage bringing very little at the end. OP has already chosen his group (Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage), so it is a draw in terms of the debate. I personally would go for Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric.

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/KGG2z0J.gif

[Gloomlord]

I think Toxigen said it best:

just shut the fuck up already jesus christ

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No. You will not win by simply trolling. That is all you have.

Reposting an overview of the discussion. This is the data given, so it is all we can use. It would be great if someone else posted some data.

============================Mage DPS===================================

This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt:

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

According to Troxx, his pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58.

Average pet DPS: (36 + 50 + 45 + 51 + 30 + 49 + 56 + 60 + 55) / 9 = 48 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick sitting and 12 mana per tick standing. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. Let's assume the Mage has Conjuration Specialization. This reduces the cost to 248. Since the Mage will most likely lose 1 meditation tick due to the 6 second cast time, the mana cost goes back up to 268, to account for the 20 mana lost from not meditating. This means you can cast Shock of Steel 80 times per hour, assuming that is the only thing you do.

Troxx's average casts per individual fight: (5 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 8) / 9 = 5. To pull this off, that means he is spending 1340 - 290 (9 med ticks + 1 standing tick) = 1050 mana per encounter. After 3 encounters he would be out of mana, so there is no way he can sustain the DPS numbers provided. This is why we use the average of 1 nuke per minute, as it is not realistic to be nuking at a high DPS consistently. 74.22 is also close to the overall encounter of 80 DPS, so there is no reason to doubt the individual sets vs. the whole set.

Average player DPS without clickies: (825 damage x 80 nukes) / 3600 seconds = 18.33 DPS.

Using a https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which is a level 49 Sebilis mob and similar to Crypt mobs, an unslowed mob did 74 hits in 144 seconds. (74 x 33) / 144 = 16.95 DPS

Slowing the same mob above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E , the DPS of the damage shield is reduced to 3.9 DPS. 26 hits x 33 Damge over 220 seconds = 3.9 DPS. This makes sense, since the mob was slowed 75%, and 4 is 25% of 16.

Average Damage Shield DPS: 16.95 DPS.

Average Damage Shield DPS with slow: 3.9 DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 16.95 = 83.28 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 24.66 + 16.95 = 89.61 DPS

Average Total DPS without clickies on a slowed mob: 48 + 18.33 + 3.9 = 70.23 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling on a slowed mob: 48 + 35.29 + 3.9 = 87.19 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff on a slowed mob: 48 + 24.66 + 3.9 = 76.56 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 11.45 = 77.78 DPS
The Direct damage number is lower because you would realistically only be able to nuke once per minute due to mana, so ((825 * 0.5) / 36) = 11.45 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 16.66 + 16.95 = 81.61 DPS
The DPS is halved on this due to it being difficult to realistically get two 17 second casts off in 36 seconds.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 18.5 + 16.95 = 83.45 DPS

============================Shaman DPS===================================

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Shaman Torpor Mana Recovery Video.

Pet DPS is using a max level pet with Celerity (50% haste), Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Average pet DPS: 7321 damage over 414 seconds = 17.7 DPS

A Shaman with max Torpor and Clarity II is regenerating mana at rougly 16 mana per second. Let's assume this Shaman has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (16 x 3600) + 3000 = 60600.

Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt cost 745 mana total. This means you could cast this combination 81 a maximum of times per hour. You would not be using Conjuraton Specialization typically, so the number doesn't change.

Average player DPS without clickies (Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt): ((1648 + 1278) x 60) / 3600 seconds = 48.76 DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS without clickies: 17.7 + 48.76 = 66.46 DPS

Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS

Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies (2x Ice Strike): 17.7 + 37.5 = 55.2 DPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman Quick DPS video, logs are attached in description.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with JBB: 17.7 + 29.22 = 46.92 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with 1x JBB and 1x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 35.25 = 52.95 DPS
This would be a bit more mana efficient than 2x Ice Strikes, could do more DPS if the mob takes longer to kill, and is the same cast time as 2x Ice Strikes.

============================Difference in DPS===================================

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 83.28 DPS (Mage) - 66.46 DPS (Shaman) = 26.82 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 100.24 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 19.54 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies on a slowed mob: 87.19 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 6.49 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference without clickies: 77.78 DPS (Mage) - 55.2 DPS (Shaman) = 22.58 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS

The Difference is between 6.49 DPS and 30.5 DPS, depending on the setup of the Mage vs. the Shaman, the killspeed, and if a mob is slowed.

============================Conclusion============ =======================

The reason for this breakdown is because the debate is choosing between Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric or Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric for OP's question. The argument for Mage is DPS + Malo + Charm Break Safety.

A Shaman has both Charm Break Safety (Pet + Torpor) and a better Malo -> Malosini chance, due to Malo being better than Mala. This is why they are much better at high end level 60 camps such as Ixiblat Fer, Fungi King, Cliff Golems, West Waste Dragons, etc. They can tank better and they can slow better. This is also where Shamans can increase their DPS, since a mob with more HP is going to take longer to kill. This means you can use your DoTs to full effect.

When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 7-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage, depending on the situation. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS at best. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. If your group is killing 20 mobs on a 30 minute timer, you are saving roughly 3 minutes per hour. To get an extra mob cycle, you would need to be at that camp for 10 hours. DPS loses efficiency as you stack more. For example, 2x Enchanters and 2x other group members would easily have a total of 200 DPS. At 200 DPS, it takes 40 seconds to kill a mob with 8000 HP. If you simply had 4x Enchanters to increase your DPS to 400, you would only decrease the kill time to 20 seconds. Even though you doubled your DPS, you only got half of the time decrease.

The other debate that spawned was whether to take a Shaman or not based on them being less useful at low levels. It is true Shamans don't come into their own until level 30 or so, but this is true for Enchanters and clerics too. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3499420&postcount=1273 This post shows a level 24 warrior out-DPSing a level 27 charmed pet with 37% haste and a Torch. Enchanter charm isn't as powerful as people think at lower levels, plus Enchanters have to deal with more meditating, lower mana pool, more fizzles, more interrupts, resists, etc. The 2x Enchanters in this group aren't going to be as good as melees with 2k worth of gear. The cleric is also going to bring fairly little to the table. This shouldn't deter you from bringing these classes, as they are well worth the wait once you get to level 30 or so. Luckily leveling from 1-30 is going to be super easy with any group of 4, so this shouldn't be a big consideration.

Finally, this debate is looking at all level ranges, from 1-60, including level 60 item farming. It is up to the user to decide whether they want to pick a Mage for slightly faster kill speeds from levels 1-60 and during level 60 farming, or pick a Shaman for their superior utility and safety. This is very useful when farming level 60 camps like Fungi King and Ixiblat Fer. Honestly a group of 4 casters is already going to level extremely quickly, so I do not believe the Mage is worth it. A slightly better leveling experience does not make up for a Mage bringing very little at the end. OP has already chosen his group (Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage), so it is a draw in terms of the debate. I personally would go for Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric.

[PlsNoBan]

Copy/Paste of the same bad data/argument

https://c.tenor.com/AvGorfqfgJsAAAAC/star-wars.gif

Hate to break it to ya...

[Chortles Snortles]

https://i.imgur.com/CzSD7bc.jpg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's pretty sad to say someone else has lost when the only thing you have brought to the argument is 600+ posts of memes and insults, and no data lol.

Reposting an overview of the discussion. This is the data given, so it is all we can use. It would be great if someone else posted some data.

============================Mage DPS===================================

This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt:

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

According to Troxx, his pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58.

Average pet DPS: (36 + 50 + 45 + 51 + 30 + 49 + 56 + 60 + 55) / 9 = 48 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick sitting and 12 mana per tick standing. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. Let's assume the Mage has Conjuration Specialization. This reduces the cost to 248. Since the Mage will most likely lose 1 meditation tick due to the 6 second cast time, the mana cost goes back up to 268, to account for the 20 mana lost from not meditating. This means you can cast Shock of Steel 80 times per hour, assuming that is the only thing you do.

Troxx's average casts per individual fight: (5 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 8) / 9 = 5. To pull this off, that means he is spending 1340 - 290 (9 med ticks + 1 standing tick) = 1050 mana per encounter. After 3 encounters he would be out of mana, so there is no way he can sustain the DPS numbers provided. This is why we use the average of 1 nuke per minute, as it is not realistic to be nuking at a high DPS consistently. 74.22 is also close to the overall encounter of 80 DPS, so there is no reason to doubt the individual sets vs. the whole set.

Average player DPS without clickies: (825 damage x 80 nukes) / 3600 seconds = 18.33 DPS.

Using a https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which is a level 49 Sebilis mob and similar to Crypt mobs, an unslowed mob did 74 hits in 144 seconds. (74 x 33) / 144 = 16.95 DPS

Slowing the same mob above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E , the DPS of the damage shield is reduced to 3.9 DPS. 26 hits x 33 Damge over 220 seconds = 3.9 DPS. This makes sense, since the mob was slowed 75%, and 4 is 25% of 16.

Average Damage Shield DPS: 16.95 DPS.

Average Damage Shield DPS with slow: 3.9 DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 16.95 = 83.28 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 24.66 + 16.95 = 89.61 DPS

Average Total DPS without clickies on a slowed mob: 48 + 18.33 + 3.9 = 70.23 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling on a slowed mob: 48 + 35.29 + 3.9 = 87.19 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff on a slowed mob: 48 + 24.66 + 3.9 = 76.56 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 11.45 = 77.78 DPS
The Direct damage number is lower because you would realistically only be able to nuke once per minute due to mana, so ((825 * 0.5) / 36) = 11.45 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 16.66 + 16.95 = 81.61 DPS
The DPS is halved on this due to it being difficult to realistically get two 17 second casts off in 36 seconds.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 18.5 + 16.95 = 83.45 DPS

============================Shaman DPS===================================

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Shaman Torpor Mana Recovery Video.

Pet DPS is using a max level pet with Celerity (50% haste), Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Average pet DPS: 7321 damage over 414 seconds = 17.7 DPS

A Shaman with max Torpor and Clarity II is regenerating mana at rougly 16 mana per second. Let's assume this Shaman has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (16 x 3600) + 3000 = 60600.

Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt cost 745 mana total. This means you could cast this combination 81 a maximum of times per hour. You would not be using Conjuraton Specialization typically, so the number doesn't change.

Average player DPS without clickies (Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt): ((1648 + 1278) x 60) / 3600 seconds = 48.76 DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS without clickies: 17.7 + 48.76 = 66.46 DPS

Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS

Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies (2x Ice Strike): 17.7 + 37.5 = 55.2 DPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman Quick DPS video, logs are attached in description.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with JBB: 17.7 + 29.22 = 46.92 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with 1x JBB and 1x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 35.25 = 52.95 DPS
This would be a bit more mana efficient than 2x Ice Strikes, could do more DPS if the mob takes longer to kill, and is the same cast time as 2x Ice Strikes.

============================Difference in DPS===================================

The data below will show average DPS over a slower kill of 1 minute and 30 seconds or more:

Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 83.28 DPS (Mage) - 66.46 DPS (Shaman) = 26.82 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 100.24 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 19.54 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies on a slowed mob: 87.19 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 6.49 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group, assuming no slow:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference without clickies: 77.78 DPS (Mage) - 55.2 DPS (Shaman) = 22.58 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS

The Difference is between 6.49 DPS and 30.5 DPS, depending on the setup of the Mage vs. the Shaman, the killspeed, and if a mob is slowed.

============================Conclusion============ =======================

The reason for this breakdown is because the debate is choosing between Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric or Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric for OP's question. The argument for Mage is DPS + Malo + Charm Break Safety.

A Shaman has both Charm Break Safety (Pet + Torpor) and a better Malo -> Malosini chance, due to Malo being better than Mala. This is why they are much better at high end level 60 camps such as Ixiblat Fer, Fungi King, Cliff Golems, West Waste Dragons, etc. They can tank better and they can slow better. This is also where Shamans can increase their DPS, since a mob with more HP is going to take longer to kill. This means you can use your DoTs to full effect.

When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 7-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage, depending on the situation. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS at best. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. If your group is killing 20 mobs on a 30 minute timer, you are saving roughly 3 minutes per hour. To get an extra mob cycle, you would need to be at that camp for 10 hours. DPS loses efficiency as you stack more. For example, 2x Enchanters and 2x other group members would easily have a total of 200 DPS. At 200 DPS, it takes 40 seconds to kill a mob with 8000 HP. If you simply had 4x Enchanters to increase your DPS to 400, you would only decrease the kill time to 20 seconds. Even though you doubled your DPS, you only got half of the time decrease.

The other debate that spawned was whether to take a Shaman or not based on them being less useful at low levels. It is true Shamans don't come into their own until level 30 or so, but this is true for Enchanters and clerics too. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3499420&postcount=1273 This post shows a level 24 warrior out-DPSing a level 27 charmed pet with 37% haste and a Torch. Enchanter charm isn't as powerful as people think at lower levels, plus Enchanters have to deal with more meditating, lower mana pool, more fizzles, more interrupts, resists, etc. The 2x Enchanters in this group aren't going to be as good as melees with 2k worth of gear. The cleric is also going to bring fairly little to the table. This shouldn't deter you from bringing these classes, as they are well worth the wait once you get to level 30 or so. Luckily leveling from 1-30 is going to be super easy with any group of 4, so this shouldn't be a big consideration.

Finally, this debate is looking at all level ranges, from 1-60, including level 60 item farming. It is up to the user to decide whether they want to pick a Mage for slightly faster kill speeds from levels 1-60 and during level 60 farming, or pick a Shaman for their superior utility and safety. This is very useful when farming level 60 camps like Fungi King and Ixiblat Fer. Honestly a group of 4 casters is already going to level extremely quickly, so I do not believe the Mage is worth it. A slightly better leveling experience does not make up for a Mage bringing very little at the end. OP has already chosen his group (Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage), so it is a draw in terms of the debate. I personally would go for Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric.

[Ripqozko]

Imagine thinking you can win on a forums for elves.

[PlsNoBan]

It's pretty sad to say someone else has lost when the only thing you have brought to the argument is 600+ posts of copy pasted bad data and faulty logic

https://i.imgur.com/pj2nYwn.png


Can't wait to see another copy paste of pure trash information :)

[Gloomlord]

If there's one good thing we can get out of this thread, it's that DSM is never going to be taken seriously again. He has completely tarnished his reputation as a voice of wisdom.

His "victory" is going to be a pyrrhic one, at the very least.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Imagine thinking you can win on a forums for elves.

Look in the mirror. Why are you trolling here if you don't want to "win"?

If there's one good thing we can get out of this thread, it's that DSM is never going to be taken seriously again. He has completely tarnished his reputation as a voice of wisdom.

His "victory" is going to be a pyrrhic one, at the very least.

The only people who are going to lose credit are the trolls. That is your "victory".

200+ troll posts from PlsNoBan that are just insults/memes. Mostly accusing me of autism (big yikes).

200+ troll posts from Troxx that are just insults/memes.

100+ posts of complete nonsense from Cyxthryth.

50+ posts from Gloomlord that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Karanis that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Toxigen that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Ripqozko that are just insults/memes.

20+ posts from Chortles Snortles that are just insults/memes.

You and your troll friends have accumulated 700+ posts that are literally just insults and memes. You turned this thread into an RnF thread. That is a terrible look. I'll take my post history any day. I am not sure why you think you can just hide this.

You don't get to "win" a debate by simply drowning out other people's information in trolling. I have actual data and math backing up my information, you don't. Admit you are wrong or actually contribute to the conversation.

[Karanis]

18635

18634

18636

[Gloomlord]

You know, it's funny. I get the strange feeling you don't even believe that yourself...

The power of the lie has its limits, child.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only people who are going to lose credit are the trolls. That is your "victory".

200+ troll posts from PlsNoBan that are just insults/memes. Mostly accusing me of autism (big yikes).

200+ troll posts from Troxx that are just insults/memes.

100+ posts of complete nonsense from Cyxthryth.

50+ posts from Gloomlord that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Karanis that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Toxigen that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Ripqozko that are just insults/memes.

20+ posts from Chortles Snortles that are just insults/memes.

You and your troll friends have accumulated 700+ posts that are literally just insults and memes. You turned this thread into an RnF thread. That is a terrible look. I'll take my post history any day. I am not sure why you think you can just hide this.

You don't get to "win" a debate by simply drowning out other people's information in trolling. I have actual data and math backing up my information, you don't. Admit you are wrong or actually contribute to the conversation.

[Ripqozko]

Look in the mirror. Why are you trolling here if you don't want to "win"?



The only people who are going to lose credit are the trolls. That is your "victory".

200+ troll posts from PlsNoBan that are just insults/memes. Mostly accusing me of autism (big yikes).

200+ troll posts from Troxx that are just insults/memes.

100+ posts of complete nonsense from Cyxthryth.

50+ posts from Gloomlord that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Karanis that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Toxigen that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Ripqozko that are just insults/memes.

20+ posts from Chortles Snortles that are just insults/memes.

You and your troll friends have accumulated 700+ posts that are literally just insults and memes. You turned this thread into an RnF thread. That is a terrible look. I'll take my post history any day. I am not sure why you think you can just hide this.

You don't get to "win" a debate by simply drowning out other people's information in trolling. I have actual data and math backing up my information, you don't. Admit you are wrong or actually contribute to the conversation.

Trolling has nothing to do with trying to win, its shit posting. the fact you cant tell the difference is sad. No one should be trying to win on a 23 year old elf sim forum. consider logging off.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Trolling has nothing to do with trying to win, its shit posting. the fact you cant tell the difference is sad. No one should be trying to win on a 23 year old elf sim forum. consider logging off.

Yes it does. If you didn't care you wouldn't bother posting here at all:) This isn't RnF so you have no excuse. Take your own advice and log off.

[Gloomlord]

Arrogant lunatics tend to bring out anger and ridicule in people, DSM.

I think your insanity is beginning to no longer avail you, though. I can see it slipping...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am not sure why you are so angry about the information I have given Gloomlord. Anybody with basic math skills can confirm the math is correct. Unless you have better Mage Pet DPS data, or you think the Mana/Damage values of the spells are wrong, the facts aren't going to change just because you want them to. 700+ posts written in rage will not change this.


The only people who are going to lose credit are the trolls. That is your "victory".

200+ troll posts from PlsNoBan that are just insults/memes. Mostly accusing me of autism (big yikes).

200+ troll posts from Troxx that are just insults/memes.

100+ posts of complete nonsense from Cyxthryth.

50+ posts from Gloomlord that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Karanis that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Toxigen that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Ripqozko that are just insults/memes.

20+ posts from Chortles Snortles that are just insults/memes.

You and your troll friends have accumulated 700+ posts that are literally just insults and memes. You turned this thread into an RnF thread. That is a terrible look. I'll take my post history any day. I am not sure why you think you can just hide this.

You don't get to "win" a debate by simply drowning out other people's information in trolling. I have actual data and math backing up my information, you don't. Admit you are wrong or actually contribute to the conversation.

[Gloomlord]

Oh, I'm angry. I do not deny that. I'm not sure why you think pointing this out makes you look less pathetic.

People will rightfully get angry with an arrogant fool who doesn't have the decency to concede his point, like a mature human being.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh, I'm angry. I do not deny that. I'm not sure why you think pointing this out makes you look less pathetic.

People will rightfully get angry with an arrogant fool who doesn't have the decency to concede his point, like a mature human being.

You probably should look in a mirror. The only arrogance here is the people who think they can just claim they are right without evidence, and then start trolling when they lose a debate. That is you. It is childish, and everybody can see your posts. In all the time you spent insulting me, you could instead try and formulate a proper argument with data to back it up.


The only people who are going to lose credit are the trolls. That is your "victory".

200+ troll posts from PlsNoBan that are just insults/memes. Mostly accusing me of autism (big yikes).

200+ troll posts from Troxx that are just insults/memes.

100+ posts of complete nonsense from Cyxthryth.

50+ posts from Gloomlord that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Karanis that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Toxigen that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Ripqozko that are just insults/memes.

20+ posts from Chortles Snortles that are just insults/memes.

You and your troll friends have accumulated 700+ posts that are literally just insults and memes. You turned this thread into an RnF thread. That is a terrible look. I'll take my post history any day. I am not sure why you think you can just hide this.

You don't get to "win" a debate by simply drowning out other people's information in trolling. I have actual data and math backing up my information, you don't. Admit you are wrong or actually contribute to the conversation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Guys? Can we stop using "autism" as an insult here?

Yes, DeathsSilkyMist is an obvious troll, or childishly stubborn. Why do we have to bring autism and Asperger's Syndrome into this?

This was your first post in the debate. Great way to start a conversation lol. You have been trolling since the start, and now the majority of your post history is simply turning this thread into an RnF thread because you are angry that you lost a debate. Please grow up.

[Gloomlord]

I did. You've ignored that completely, and repeated ad nauseam your data that doesn't mean squat in a 2 charm enchanter 1 cleric group.

Is it possible that, if a complete multitude disagree with you in this thread, that I'm not the one suffering from hubris here?

You, in your insanity, seem to think only you possess the secret knowledge of how shaman is going to be better than mage in this 4 man group.

Nobody, not even you, is going to believe for a second you actually have merit here or are unbiased in the slightest.

[Gloomlord]

This was your first post in the debate. Great way to start a conversation lol. You have been trolling since the start, and now the majority of your post history is simply turning this thread into an RnF thread because you are angry that you lost a debate. Please grow up.

You keep proving my point here...

How was I trolling here, you lunatic? I said I agreed with their harsh assessment of you, but that calling you autistic may have been going too far. I was a "silent observer" until then. How was that "trolling"? Do you have a shred of intelligence?

This is it, guys! This child is beginning to snap. Can't you see it?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You keep proving my point here...

How was I trolling here, you lunatic? I said I agreed with their harsh assessment of you, but that calling you autistic may have been going too far. I was a "silent observer" until then. How was that "trolling"? Do you have a shred of intelligence?

This is it, guys! This child is beginning to snap. Can't you see it?

You called me childish and stubborn for no reason. I didn't do that to you when you first appeared. It's not a very civil way to start a conversation.

I did. You've ignored that completely, and repeated ad nauseam your data that doesn't mean squat in a 2 charm enchanter 1 cleric group.

Is it possible that, if a complete multitude disagree with you in this thread, that I'm not the one suffering from hubris here?

You, in your insanity, seem to think only you possess the secret knowledge of how shaman is going to be better than mage in this 4 man group.

Nobody, not even you, is going to believe for a second you actually have merit here or are unbiased in the slightest.

Data trumps experience. You haven't made one post to disprove any of the data provided, or the math given. This is a video game. The rules and math are fixed, never to change unless you cheat.

I really don't know why you think there is some deeper truth hidden outside of the basic rules and math of the game. You have yet to explain this, and instead just continue rage posting that you think I am wrong.

Debates don't work that way. You don't win by accumulating more troll posts than your opponent. You have been lulled into a false sense of security by assuming agreeing with the group makes you correct.

[Gloomlord]

We talked about the data. We mentioned that mage still does more and requires less effort. We talked about root rotting is a pointless gesture in this group. We talked about how these hypothetical people know how to play the game. What more do you want?

You've lost the argument. There's no way out of this. I've insulted you because you deserve to be insulted. This was not me trying to "troll". This does not take away from the fact you are illogical in your reasoning.

[Gloomlord]

You called me childish and stubborn for no reason. I didn't do that to you when you first appeared. It's not a very civil way to start a conversation.

Because you are childish and stubborn. It wasn't for "no reason".

How does that make sense?! PlsNoBan already explained why we find it difficult to be civil with you. You are so cocksure in your obtuse nature, that even the most patient person will get fed up with you.

Toxigen seems like a pretty calm guy in general, but even he told you to "shut the fuck up" after you went this far. That speaks leagues about you, does it not?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We talked about the data. We mentioned that mage still does more and requires less effort. We talked about root rotting is a pointless gesture in this group. We talked about how these hypothetical people know how to play the game. What more do you want?

You've lost the argument. There's no way out of this. I've insulted you because you deserve to be insulted. This was not me trying to "troll". This does not take away from the fact you are illogical in your reasoning.

You haven't provided any data to prove the "Mage does more". Effort is dependent on the player, so it is not relevant to the discussion. OP isn't asking about classes that are easier to play, and we are assuming the players are experienced. This means they can easily adapt to strategies that aren't the norm.

Your opinion on how to generate DPS is not law. If you don't want to root/rot in a group, that doesn't mean everybody else thinks the same way. Just because people don't play that way doesn't mean it isn't a good way to play. People didn't do a lot of charming in groups on live in 1999-2001. That doesn't mean they were right in avoiding it.

Saying "you lost the debate" isn't how you win a debate. "You lost the debate". See? I can do it too.

At the Toxigen comment, he likes to troll threads, he isn't a good barometer.

You can also see your own arrogance by somehow claiming I deserve to be insulted lol. Who made you the insult arbiter?

[Karanis]

18637

[Gloomlord]

Just because you repeat "you're wrong" ad nauseam doesn't make you right. We've explained time and time again, to a degree we really shouldn't, why mage is preferable contributing to single target DPS over a shaman root rotting mobs. How can you not see that root rotting mobs in a 2 enchanter charm group is totally pointless?

You conveniently ignored my parable about a wizard and bard quadding in a 6 man group. Why? Because you know it's insane for 2 people to be doing that in a group where 4 other people depend on them.

YOU HAVE LOST!

[Gloomlord]

If a shaman wanted to root rot, why not join a group with a necromancer?

Why would 2 enchanters want a shaman in it root rotting irrelevant mobs? Why would they appreciate this, even if somehow shaman *DID* more damage than mage?

If you have a character at 60, you should know noone is going to want this. Are you going to tell us all, with a straight face, that this is what you'd do in 2 enchanter and 1 cleric group?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just because you repeat "you're wrong" ad nauseam doesn't make you right.
YOU HAVE LOST!


Precisely. Please stop doing that. I am providing evidence to back up my claims. You are the one simply saying "you are wrong" without evidence, and then insulting me.


We've explained time and time again, to a degree we really shouldn't, why mage is preferable contributing to single target DPS over a shaman root rotting mobs. How can you not see that root rotting mobs in a 2 enchanter charm group is totally pointless?


And you have no evidence to prove why you think you are correct over me. In any situation where you can chain pull mobs, you can root/rot. This is fact, and will not change. Your preference is not relevant to how the game actually works.


You conveniently ignored my parable about a wizard and bard quadding in a 6 man group. Why? Because you know it's insane for 2 people to be doing that in a group where 4 other people depend on them.


I ignored it because you are somehow trying to equate quadding to root/rotting. You do know you need more space to quad than root/rot, right? They aren't comparable, and most level 60 groups are probably going to be in dungeons, where space is tight.

If there was an area where you could do both, I would be interested to see the numbers. It could be efficient in some areas. Dragon Necropolis is one area where you could have your bard swarm kiting spiders while your group is directly under the area killing rats, but I haven't tested that.

[Gloomlord]

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/50299980/just-because-you-can-doesnt-mean-you-should.jpg

That is my rebuttal to your moronic suggestion about root rotting in a charm group.

"My preference"? Pretty sure that's nearly everyone in the game, you frothing madman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/50299980/just-because-you-can-doesnt-mean-you-should.jpg

That is my rebuttal to your moronic suggestion about root rotting in a charm group.

"My preference"? Pretty sure that's nearly everyone in the game, you frothing madman.

And you have no data to back up that claim either lol.

"Most people prefer to root/rot in groups". See? I can make the claim too, and we are back to square one without data.

[Chortles Snortles]

https://i.imgur.com/CzSD7bc.jpg

[Gloomlord]

Most people prefer, in a 6 man group, to efficiently down a mob one by one, with adds being negated by a puller splitting and quickly grabbing them before others spawn around it, or simply CCing them. So why would they like 2 idiots waltzing off to quad and destroy this efficiency?

And thus why would a 2 charm enchanter group, with a cleric to heal the charm pets and slip ups and stun, want a shaman who does not contribute to the speed of single target DPS and root rots irrelevant mobs?

They wouldn't, assuming they're sane.

How can you get out of this one?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Most people prefer, in a 6 man group, to efficiently down a mob one by one, with adds being negated by a puller splitting and quickly grabbing them before others spawn around it, or simply CCing them. So why would they like 2 idiots waltzing off to quad and destroy this efficiency?

And thus why would a 2 charm enchanter group, with a cleric to heal the charm pets and slip ups and stun, want a shaman who does not contribute to the speed of single target DPS and root rots irrelevant mobs?

They wouldn't, assuming they're sane.

How can you get out of this one?

Easy. Let's switch to pure experience, since you seem to be unable to provide any evidence to back up your claims.

From my experience of playing on this server for years, people don't care that much about DPS.

I have never seen a group gear check players, and groups often times form in sub-optimal configurations. This is easily losing 30+ DPS on a per group basis, which is the difference in DPS between a Mage and a Shaman without root rotting.

The reality is people will lose 30 DPS without thinking and not even notice. Groups also tend to break up when they wipe. The value in decreasing your groups chances of wiping tends to outweigh slightly faster kill speeds. This is because spawn timers are going to slow down your progress no matter what. You do not get an infinite stream of mobs at your disposal. A group may plan on fighting for 4 hours, but then disbands after 2 hours due to a wipe.

Please do not bring player skill into the discussion. I have seen the most skilled players in the game screw up. Nobody is perfect. It is a straw man to make the claim that I am talking about bad players in this scenario.

[Gloomlord]

You say they "don't care about DPS".

But even if this is true, why would they pick shaman over mage if they were going to have a 4 man group of friends exping to 60?

We also established that the people in question know what they're doing but have human limitations on stamina. Mage is an obvious choice over shaman.

Do I really need to provide "evidence" about the overwhelming majority of people not wanting 2 idiots in a 6 man group doing their own thing? Even a bad player can see how obtuse that is.

You've lost the argument. There's no getting out of this.

[Gloomlord]

Also, no one is saying you couldn't theoretically meet or surpass mage dps by root-rotting non-high level Sebilis mobs (certainly not ilis frogs or wizards) off to the side.

We're saying most 4-man caster groups would rather have a largely irrelevant mage increasing single target dps as the enchanter pets melt 1 mob at a time, along with their other perks; than an almost entirely irrelevant shaman off-healing OR doing some dumbass root-rotting of adds off to the side in order to dps.

Just to reiterate, it's possible, it's just retarded.

You have lost the argument.

It is over.

Checkmate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You say they "don't care about DPS".

But even if this is true, why would they pick shaman over mage if they were going to have a 4 man group of friends exping to 60?

We also established that the people in question know what they're doing but have human limitations on stamina. Mage is an obvious choice over shaman.

Do I really need to provide "evidence" about the overwhelming majority of people not wanting 2 idiots in a 6 man group doing their own thing? Even a bad player can see how obtuse that is.

You've lost the argument. There's no getting out of this.

Easy. A Shaman provides more safety and camp options, and the group won't notice the DPS loss. That is my experience from years of play. The optimal DPS threshold for group content is around 200 at level 60. The dimishing returns get too heavy at that point, and most group comps can hit 200 easy. You would need to try and make a really bad group comp to be well under 200.

[Gloomlord]

Right, so shaman can provide slightly more camp options...but as PlsNoBan has pointed out, that is so niche that shaman is still more irrelevant than mage if all they want is some extra DPS.

You've now switched from the root rotting argument, which you know is utterly flawed, to now saying that shaman "opens up more potential doors".

As I've said: this is a never-ending circle of insanity. You'll keep switching from one argument to another when one fails, and then go back to the same one when we've poked holes in that one. You deliberately frustrate your opponent, and then claim "SEE?! YOU'RE TROLLING!" when they tell you to piss off.

How do you not see you've lost the argument? I call your bluff.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Right, so shaman can provide slightly more camp options...but as PlsNoBan has pointed out, that is so niche that shaman is still more irrelevant than mage if all they want is some extra DPS.

You've now switched from the root rotting argument, which you know is utterly flawed, to now saying that shaman "opens up more potential doors".

As I've said: this is a never-ending circle of insanity. You'll keep switching from one argument to another when one fails, and then go back to the same one when we've poked holes in that one. You deliberately frustrate your opponent, and then claim "SEE?! YOU'RE TROLLING!" when they tell you to piss off.

How do you not see you've lost the argument? I call your bluff.

This is all nonsense. If you want to know my experience (which cannot be proven with data), that has been my experience. I am not switching arguments, I have said all of this before many times. You haven't read my posts, which is why you think I am switching arguments, or root rotting is my primary argument. Root rotting isn't even included in my data lol.

I have played with the top guilds and highly skilled players. I have been on this server for years. People don't care that much about DPS. It isn't as important as safety and camp options. The reality is group content is tuned for players with average/below average gear, but most people are using gear that is above the tuned levels. So its much easier to hit optimal DPS breakpoints with all sorts of group combinations. We are not playing in 1999 where everybodies gear sucks, which is when a Mage shines.

[Gloomlord]

Well, why even bring up root rotting, regardless? All it does is serve to make you look like an even bigger idiot.

If root rotting is not included in your data, and your data says that mage still does a fair bit more, then you yourself have provided evidence that shaman is unwarranted in a group which includes an enchanter and cleric, the strongest duo in the game.

I'd wager most people in this thread, too, are highly skilled and have played P99 for years. Nearly every single one of them disagrees with you. Your "appeal to authority" fallacy has no merit here.

[Gloomlord]

If there's one good thing we can get out of this thread, it's that DSM is never going to be taken seriously again. He has completely tarnished his reputation as a voice of wisdom.

His "victory" is going to be a pyrrhic one, at the very least.

Let these be my final words. I tire of talking to a psychopathic manchild.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Well, why even bring up root rotting, regardless? All it does is serve to make you look like an even bigger idiot.

If root rotting is not included in your data, and your data says that mage still does a fair bit more, then you yourself have provided evidence that shaman is unwarranted in a group which includes an enchanter and cleric, the strongest duo in the game.

I'd wager most people in this thread, too, are highly skilled and have played P99 for years. Nearly every single one of them disagrees with you. Your "appeal to authority" fallacy has no merit here.

You haven't been reading. The only point I am making about root rotting is if people are only killing trash (a trvial exercise), you can root rot. This is why talking about chain pulling with a mage is not a good argument for Mages. Shamans can also clear mobs quickly when the encounter is trivial. Your opinion about it doesn't change the facts.

The only reason why we are stuck on chain pulling is because it is the only situation where the DPS gap is 30. You want to keep the conversation there because it benefits you. On mobs that take 1 minute and 30 seconds to kill or longer, the DPS gap can shrink to as low as 7 DPS if the mob is slowed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let these be my final words. I tire of talking to a psychopathic manchild.


The only people who are going to lose credit are the trolls. That is your "victory".

200+ troll posts from PlsNoBan that are just insults/memes. Mostly accusing me of autism (big yikes).

200+ troll posts from Troxx that are just insults/memes.

100+ posts of complete nonsense from Cyxthryth.

50+ posts from Gloomlord that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Karanis that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Toxigen that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Ripqozko that are just insults/memes.

20+ posts from Chortles Snortles that are just insults/memes.

You and your troll friends have accumulated 700+ posts that are literally just insults and memes. You turned this thread into an RnF thread. That is a terrible look. I'll take my post history any day. I am not sure why you think you can just hide this.

You don't get to "win" a debate by simply drowning out other people's information in trolling. I have actual data and math backing up my information, you don't. Admit you are wrong or actually contribute to the conversation.

[PlsNoBan]

DSM (and only DSM): The thought of shamans in everquest give me an erection. I believe they are the best answer to every question. The only thing that makes me harder than shamans is posting bad data and doing lots of math on it to prove why shamans are the answer to every question. I will come up with every possible niche situation/circumstance to further this point that I possibly can. I will post about this 600+ times in 1 thread being extremely obtuse and obnoxious about my outlandish claims until everyone is so fed up with my bullshit that they can no longer respond politely. I will continue posting the same shit 1000+ times if I have to. I won't stop posting til everyone else gives up out of frustration and that is how I will win this internet battle. Centuries from now people will look at the post history and one thing will be clear: I am correct and shamans are the best.

Everyone else: That's retarded

DSM: Stop calling me names. Post history is clear. Look at all my bad copy pasted data and faulty logic. Everyone is wrong and I am right. Here's more copy pasted useless data that doesn't matter and everyone knows is wrong. I bet this will convince everyone that I am correct.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only people who are going to lose credit are the trolls. That is your "victory".

200+ troll posts from PlsNoBan that are just insults/memes. Mostly accusing me of autism (big yikes).

200+ troll posts from Troxx that are just insults/memes.

100+ posts of complete nonsense from Cyxthryth.

50+ posts from Gloomlord that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Karanis that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Toxigen that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Ripqozko that are just insults/memes.

20+ posts from Chortles Snortles that are just insults/memes.

You and your troll friends have accumulated 700+ posts that are literally just insults and memes. You turned this thread into an RnF thread. That is a terrible look. I'll take my post history any day. I am not sure why you think you can just hide this.

You don't get to "win" a debate by simply drowning out other people's information in trolling. I have actual data and math backing up my information, you don't. Admit you are wrong or actually contribute to the conversation.

[PlsNoBan]

Oh god... I'm gonna lose credit on elf sim forums? I honestly have no idea how I will be able to overcome this obstacle

https://i.imgur.com/dtv1TkV.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh god... I'm gonna lose credit on elf sim forums? I honestly have no idea how I will be able to overcome this obstacle


If you didn't care about these elf forums, you would have stopped posting a long time ago. Your actions bely your meme post.

[PlsNoBan]

I come here to talk elfquest and bullshit. It's entertainment and nothing more. Your antics are like watching a trainwreck and I can't look away. I'm not sure if you legitimately have mental problems or not. I might feel slightly bad if you actually do. There's been some stuff you've said that made me go "Jesus maybe he really does?" but until I know otherwise I'm just gonna assume you're just an extremely hard headed moron with lots of stupid ideas and feel perfectly comfortable making fun of you for them.

If you think I give a single ounce of a single fuck what anyone here thinks about me? I'm afraid that JUST MIGHT be the dumbest thought you've had yet. My credit with you or anyone else here means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and I promise you that <3

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I come here to talk elfquest and bullshit. It's entertainment and nothing more. Your antics are like watching a trainwreck and I can't look away. I'm not sure if you legitimately have mental problems or not. I might feel slightly bad if you actually do. There's been some stuff you've said that made me go "Jesus maybe he really does?" but until I know otherwise I'm just gonna assume you're just an extremely hard headed moron with lots of stupid ideas and feel perfectly comfortable making fun of you for them.

If you think I give a single ounce of a single fuck what anyone here thinks about me? I'm afraid that JUST MIGHT be the dumbest thought you've had yet. My credit with you or anyone else here means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and I promise you that <3

*Rage posts on an elf forum, pretends that means he doesn't care*.

There are only two reasons why you are still posting:

1. You care.

2. You are trolling.

Based on your post history, trolling is the likely scenario. Honestly this means your opinions should be taken with a grain of salt, since you are not here to have a real discussion.

[PlsNoBan]

I'm afraid that JUST MIGHT be the dumbest thought you've had yet

Sorry I lied. When you said warriors solo better than enchanters was the dumbest. I forgot about that one for a sec.

[PlsNoBan]

*Rage posts on an elf forum, pretends that means he doesn't care*.

There are only two reasons why you are still posting:

1. You care.

2. You are trolling.

Based on your post history, trolling is the likely scenario. Honestly this means your opinions should be taken with a grain of salt, since you are not here to have a real discussion.

3. Exactly what I told you. I come here to talk EQ and bullshit strictly for entertainment. I can't wait for you to explain to me how you know better my reasons for being here than I do. Hopefully there's lots of data and math involved.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

3. Exactly what I told you. I come here to talk EQ and bullshit strictly for entertainment. I can't wait for you to explain to me how you know better my reasons for being here than I do. Hopefully there's lots of data and math involved.

Its clear you are trolling. You aren't here to have a real discussion, and 200+ troll posts are evidence enough.

Please keep trolling to RnF, we have a forum dedicated to posters like yourself.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/v9rmVgTOXJEAAAAC/facepalm-really.gif

[cd288]

Lmao DSM still going. Dude I say this in all honesty not trying to troll you this is getting embarrassing just stop responding man! Let go!

[PlsNoBan]

Its clear you are trolling. You aren't here to have a real discussion, and 200+ troll posts are evidence enough.

Please keep trolling to RnF, we have a forum dedicated to posters like yourself.

I think your post history makes it pretty clear you have no intention of having a real discussion either my friend. Nobody started out trolling or calling you names. Your actions caused that. I think if you took a poll of all readers of this thread you'd be surprised at the results. Your posts are little better than trolling and you've posted 600+ times. Some might say worse than trolling cause at least trolls are sometimes funny. Do yourself and everyone else a favor and stop posting. You've changed 0 minds and you will continue changing 0 minds for 1000+ posts at this rate. Literally nobody is on your side. Does this really not set off any red flags in your brain? Do you honestly believe that what's REALLY happening here is 10+ people are all just trolls and you're the only non troll here and the only person that's correct about anything? Get a fucking grip my guy. Don't you think it's time to accept that JUST MAYBE you're wrong?

Best case scenario for you: You're 100% correct about everything. Everyone but you is wrong and a troll. EVEN IF THIS WAS TRUE (it's not) why continue posting? Nobody but the trolls are reading or responding to anything you have to say. Is it your intent to sit here and continue posting 1000+ times to feed trolls? What does that say about you?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lmao DSM still going. Dude I say this in all honesty not trying to troll you this is getting embarrassing just stop responding man! Let go!

You could say the same thing about all the other fequent posters here. Curious how you continue to only target me with silly things like this.

The trolls could stop at any time, or bring evidence to back up their claims.

The only emberassing thing here is the 700+ posts that are literally just memes and insults due to adults being unable to accept they are wrong. This isn't RnF, so there is no excuse.

[PlsNoBan]

Best case scenario for you: You're 100% correct about everything. Everyone but you is wrong and a troll. EVEN IF THIS WAS TRUE (it's not) why continue posting? Nobody but the trolls are reading or responding to anything you have to say. Is it your intent to sit here and continue posting 1000+ times to feed trolls? What does that say about you?

Reminder: You have posted over SIX HUNDRED TIMES "feeding trolls"

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Reminder: You have posted over SIX HUNDRED TIMES "feeding trolls"


200+ troll posts from PlsNoBan that are just insults/memes. Mostly accusing me of autism (big yikes).

200+ troll posts from Troxx that are just insults/memes.

100+ posts of complete nonsense from Cyxthryth.

50+ posts from Gloomlord that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Karanis that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Toxigen that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Ripqozko that are just insults/memes.

20+ posts from Chortles Snortles that are just insults/memes.

Spreading the trolling around to multiple users doesn't make it better. You guys are still out posting me at 700+ posts.

[PlsNoBan]

Spreading the trolling around to multiole users doesn't make it better.

Yes we are all just trolls and you are the only non troll and the only person that's correct about anything. As such I suggest you immediately cease posting so that you no longer feed trolls as you have done for over six hundred posts.


Six

Hundred

Posts

[DeathsSilkyMist]

200+ troll posts from PlsNoBan that are just insults/memes. Mostly accusing me of autism (big yikes).

200+ troll posts from Troxx that are just insults/memes.

100+ posts of complete nonsense from Cyxthryth.

50+ posts from Gloomlord that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Karanis that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Toxigen that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Ripqozko that are just insults/memes.

20+ posts from Chortles Snortles that are just insults/memes.

Spreading the trolling around to multiple users doesn't make it better. You guys are still out posting me at 700+ posts.

[PlsNoBan]

Best case scenario for you: You're 100% correct about everything. Everyone but you is wrong and a troll. EVEN IF THIS WAS TRUE (it's not) why continue posting? Nobody but the trolls are reading or responding to anything you have to say. Is it your intent to sit here and continue posting 1000+ times to feed trolls? What does that say about you?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am posting to get the correct information to people. This is not RnF. Discussions are about the game, not troll posting people you disagree with.

If you can prove me wrong, that is great. We all get to learn something. I don't care about being right, I just want the information to be correct.

But you don't get to win an argument by trolling people until they stop posting. That is simply bullying. Please keep the trolling to RnF. You can bullshit and entertain yourself there all you want.

[Chortles Snortles]

https://i.imgur.com/CzSD7bc.jpg

[Troxx]

Yes we are all just trolls and you are the only non troll and the only person that's correct about anything. As such I suggest you immediately cease posting so that you no longer feed trolls as you have done for over six hundred posts.


Six

Hundred

Posts

https://c.tenor.com/YIp6bPTQN-oAAAAd/600-elite.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

200+ troll posts from PlsNoBan that are just insults/memes. Mostly accusing me of autism (big yikes).

200+ troll posts from Troxx that are just insults/memes.

100+ posts of complete nonsense from Cyxthryth.

50+ posts from Gloomlord that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Karanis that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Toxigen that are just insults/memes.

40+ posts from Ripqozko that are just insults/memes.

20+ posts from Chortles Snortles that are just insults/memes.

Spreading the trolling around to multiple users doesn't make it better. You guys are still out posting me at 700+ posts.

[PlsNoBan]

To get the correct information to people. This is not RnF. Discussions are about the game, not troll posting people you disagree with.

DSM I'm gonna do my absolute best to be VERY sincere here. I'm not trolling in the least. I mean every word of this post with 100% sincerity.

At this point NOBODY is reading this shit for information. I fucking promise you that with absolute certainty. The average person sees this thread with new posts and either completely ignores it or opens it and immediately hits the back button without reading anything so it doesn't show the thread title in bold to signify unread posts. Some people are OCD about that. This thread at this point is nothing more than you arguing your points and (so far) every single other person disagreeing. 1 or 2 people like 150 pages ago said you had a point about like one tiny aspect of something you said. Not one person this entire thread has fully backed your stance. It has devolved into trolling at various points (including from yourself) but I believe it's mostly because you're an extremely difficult person to have a conversation with. I'm not sure you understand this or realize it but I think this thread kinda proves it. Nobody started off trolling you from what I could tell. They all started trying to have a discussion and realized it's impossible and devolved into trolling. You are legitimately doing nothing but feeding trolls at this point. I've honestly given up trying to reason with you. I still post cause it's entertaining as I said before. But it's become very very clear nothing I could possibly post will actually get through to you. So it's easier and more fun to just meme and poke fun at your ridiculous nonsense. I truly believe it's in your best interest to give it a rest. If you choose to keep posting (as I worry you will) I can assure you of 2 things. First: Nobody is reading it for information or learning a god damn thing. Second: Everyone is going to continue trolling and making fun of you.

If that's really what you want then go for it bud. I'll keep rollin with it and having fun in my own way. I urge you to really think about whether you want to continue feeding this monster or not. You legitimately could reach 1000+ posts here and the only people reading it disagree with you and will likely end up trolling/meme'ing when they realize they can't reason with you.

[Troxx]

Spreading the trolling around to multiple users doesn't make it better. You guys are still out posting me at 700+ posts.

https://c.tenor.com/Z7xSk6vtRSQAAAAC/laugh-laughing.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can look at the post history. The only unreasonable people here are the posters who think they can claim they are right without countering clear and obvious evidence.

I have only defended myself, I am not insulting people who didn't attack me first.

It is the ultimate irony people keep claiming I am the person who is difficult to converse with, but I am the only one who sincerely engages with your posts. You simply troll post when you can't counter points I make. That makes you much harder to converse with than myself.

[PlsNoBan]

You can look at the post history. The only unreasonable people here are the posters who think they can claim they are right without countering clear and obvious evidence.

I have only defended myself, I am not insulting people who didn't attack me first.

It is the ultimate irony people keep claiming I am the person who is difficult to converse with, but I am the only one who sincerely engages with your posts. You simply troll post when you can't counter points I make. That makes you much harder to converse with than myself.

Every single "troll" in this thread started out trying to have an actual discussion with you but they all realized it's fucking impossible and started trolling instead. You'll probably dismiss this as me just trolling again but it's the fucking truth dude lol. Not saying this to be a dick but you legitimately brought this on yourself.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Every single "troll" in this thread started out trying to have an actual discussion with you but they all realized it's fucking impossible and started trolling instead. You'll probably dismiss this as me just trolling again but it's the fucking truth dude lol. Not saying this to be a dick but you legitimately brought this on yourself.

The post history shows otherwise. The conversation started off normal. People got angry because I used the data provided to make easily provable mathematical facts, and then everybody started trolling me. I am not sure where you think the thread looks good for you.

You have fooled yourself into justifying your trolling because more people agree with you than me. That is a fallacy. "Everybody agrees, therefore you are wrong" is not an argument.