Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[PlsNoBan]

"The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject." - Marcus Aurelius

"The opinion of 1 lunatic with questionable mental stability is of no value because everyone knows the things he says are incorrect" - Everyone

[Chortles Snortles]

"The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject." - Marcus Aurelius

https://i.imgur.com/eY6OmCx.jpg

[Gloomlord]

If I may be so bold:

This is a lesson on the human condition, and how people do not care about the truth.

You can stack as many logical counter arguments as you can against your opponent. A multitude can unite against a single person's insanity, but it won't matter in the end.

That person is going to believe whatever they want to in the end -- regardless of how obvious the truth is.

[cd288]

I agree. It is very easy to post nonsense. You are great at it.

And now even further I’ve taken you to the point of just making trolling and insulting posts, just like you’ve claimed everyone is doing to you.

I really backed you into a corner here because I created a situation where you have three choices:

1. Admit that enchanter x3 plus cleric is the best composition (which you’ve done a couple times already but now you’re mad that you did because you can’t stand the fact that I tricked you into admitting it)

2. Go back to your argument that shaman is the best choice for the fourth character, which if you do just proves everyone else’s point that you’re not arguing in good faith and just can never accept being wrong (because it directly contradicts your statements about 3 ench and cleric being the best - which you’ve said multiple times (and have even been tricked into telling us you’ve said it multiple times lol))

Or

3. Write low effort insults calling everyone else’s posts nonsense, thereby becoming the very person you tried to discredit everyone else for allegedly being

You’re done bud it’s over

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If I may be so bold:

This is a lesson on the human condition, and how people do not care about the truth.

You can stack as many logical counter arguments as you can against your opponent. A multitude can unite against a single person's insanity, but it won't matter in the end.

That person is going to believe whatever they want to in the end -- regardless of how obvious the truth is.

Agreed. This describes the opposition perfectly. I can provide math, logic, and evidence. They provide trolling, insults, and memes.

[PlsNoBan]

And now even further I’ve taken you to the point of just making trolling and insulting posts, just like you’ve claimed everyone is doing to you.

I really backed you into a corner here because I created a situation where you have three choices:

1. Admit that enchanter x3 plus cleric is the best composition (which you’ve done a couple times already but now you’re mad that you did because you can’t stand the fact that I tricked you into admitting it)

2. Go back to your argument that shaman is the best choice for the fourth character, which if you do just proves everyone else’s point that you’re not arguing in good faith and just can never accept being wrong (because it directly contradicts your statements about 3 ench and cleric being the best - which you’ve said multiple times (and have even been tricked into telling us you’ve said it multiple times lol))

Or

3. Write low effort insults calling everyone else’s posts nonsense, thereby becoming the best person you tried to discredit everyone else for allegedly being

You’re done bud it’s over

Stick a fork in him. He's done.


Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

[PlsNoBan]

This was the most annoying forum raid boss I ever had to fight in my life

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We will see what Allishia comes back with tonight. These rage fueled attempted at gotchas are just silly and a waste of time. People can see what I have written. Troll posting nonsense over and over doesn't change that.

Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.

You probably didn't read the first post in the thread. Nice Gotcha.

[PlsNoBan]

We will see what Allishia comes back with tonight. These rage fueled attempted at gotchas are just silly and a waste of time. People can see what I have written. Troll posting nonsense over and over doesn't change that.

Yeah I agree you should stop trolling. You've been thoroughly backed into a corner and have no valid argument left. Time to hang it up big guy.


Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

[cd288]

We will see what Allishia comes back with tonight. These rage fueled attempted at gotchas are just silly and a waste of time. People can see what I have written. Troll posting nonsense over and over doesn't change that.

Yes we did. And you wrote at least twice in the past 10 minutes that enchanter x3 plus cleric is the best four person caster composition. So we’re all good now man glad we agree!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes we did. And you wrote at least twice in the past 10 minutes that enchanter x3 plus cleric is the best four person caster composition. So we’re all good now man glad we agree!

Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.

This was the first post on the thread.

[PlsNoBan]

This was the first post on the thread.

Stop trying to deflect. Cd backed you into a corner as did I. You've trapped yourself with your own words. The post history is clear and you cannot escape it with silly deflections like this. Stop embarrassing yourself and call it quits.

[cd288]

Right but twice in the past 10 minutes you told me three enchanter plus cleric were the best. Thus you and I are now in agreement about the best 4 person group glad you came around

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Right but twice in the past 10 minutes you told me three enchanter plus cleric were the best. Thus you and I are now in agreement about the best 4 person group glad you came around

Where did I admit this?

[Chortles Snortles]

https://i.imgur.com/eY6OmCx.jpg

[PlsNoBan]

Where did I admit this?

https://i.imgur.com/bsbgtxn.gif

[cd288]

Scroll back to the post I quoted that you responded to me with. You then told me several minutes ago “no you didn’t get me to make the three enchanter cleric argument I made that earlier in the thread!”

PNB we should actually stop responding otherwise we’re going to bury his recent defeat and the corners he in under another like ten pages of replies. We should keep this thread where it’s at so it’s easy for people to click right in and scroll through this recent result we’ve had

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Scroll back to the post I quoted that you responded to me with. You then told me several minutes ago “no you didn’t get me to make the three enchanter cleric argument I made that earlier in the thread!”

PNB we should actually stop responding otherwise we’re going to bury his recent defeat and the corners he in under another like ten pages of replies. We should keep this thread where it’s at so it’s easy for people to click right in and scroll through this recent result we’ve had

Please quote the post exactly. You have a habit of misreading things, or not reading them at all lol.

[PlsNoBan]

Scroll back to the post I quoted that you responded to me with. You then told me several minutes ago “no you didn’t get me to make the three enchanter cleric argument I made that earlier in the thread!”

PNB we should actually stop responding otherwise we’re going to bury his recent defeat and the corners he in under another like ten pages of replies. We should keep this thread where it’s at so it’s easy for people to click right in and scroll through this recent result we’ve had

He's going to keep posting no matter what we do. Otherwise I'd probably agree with you. He so very clearly has lost and has no leg left to stand on but even in this state I wouldn't be surprised he breaks 1000 posts here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

He's going to keep posting no matter what we do. Otherwise I'd probably agree with you. He so very clearly has lost and has no leg left to stand on but even in this state I wouldn't be surprised he breaks 1000 posts here.

Just saying I am wrong means nothing.

[PlsNoBan]

Just saying I am wrong means nothing.

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

[cd288]

He's going to keep posting no matter what we do. Otherwise I'd probably agree with you. He so very clearly has lost and has no leg left to stand on but even in this state I wouldn't be surprised he breaks 1000 posts here.

Lol yeah you’re probably right.

Still a very satisfactory result backing him into a corner like this and a great way to head into Friday happy hour.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol yeah you’re probably right.

Still a very satisfactory result backing him into a corner like this and a great way to head into Friday happy hour.

Again, this childish game doesn't get you anywhere. You can keep saying this all you want, but you can't even prove where I said something 30 minutes ago. I am not sure how you think you can prove anything else.

[PlsNoBan]

Again, this childish game doesn't get you anywhere. You can keep saying this all you want, but you can't even prove where I said something 30 minutes ago. I am not sure how you think you can prove anything else.

Stop posting. You're done. You trapped yourself with your own words and no longer have any shred of a credible argument to cling to. Bring a shaman for ixiblat otherwise something else is better. We're done here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Stop posting. You're done. You trapped yourself with your own words and no longer have any shred of a credible argument to cling to. Bring a shaman for ixiblat otherwise something else is better. We're done here.

Nope. Your troll posting does not make you correct.

[PlsNoBan]

Nope. Your troll posting does not make you correct.

You calling me a troll or whining like an infant about memes and insults doesn't change the facts. You talked yourself into a corner that you can't escape from. The post history is clear. You have no argument and further posts just continue to embarrass yourself. Please stop posting now. Thank you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You calling me a troll or whining like an infant about memes and insults doesn't change the facts. You talked yourself into a corner that you can't escape from. The post history is clear. You have no argument and further posts just continue to embarrass yourself. Please stop posting now. Thank you.

How did I do that?

Your troll posting history doesn't go away just because you try and hand wave it away. You have already admitted to trolling me when you can't get your way.

The post history is clear. Your stupidity and stubbornness forces troll behavior cause nothing else gets through your thick skull.

I'll repeat it just in case it hasn't been said before: The post history is clear.

P.S. The post history is clear

[PlsNoBan]

How did I do that?

Your troll posting history doesn't go away just because you try and hand wave it away. You have already admitted to trolling me when you can't get your way.

Trolling doesn't invalidate facts no matter how much you wish it did. You big crybaby. Give the complaining a rest. Also stop posting you have nothing left to say. You've admitted shaman is only the best option in a handful of niche situations and therefore does not belong in the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" as the topic of this thread is asking. A couple niche things at 60 does not qualify for best overall. Sorry to break it to ya.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Trolling doesn't invalidate facts no matter how much you wish it did. You big crybaby. Give the complaining a rest. Also stop posting you have nothing left to say. You've admitted shaman is only the best option in a handful of niche situations and therefore does not belong in the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" as the topic of this thread is asking. A couple niche things at 60 does not qualify for best overall. Sorry to break it to ya.

Thanks for admitting you are trolling, again. It does invalidate your points, because it is clear you are not interested in having a genuine debate. You just want to "win" against me for some silly reason. I got you angry, and you want revenge. That doesn't mean you are correct. It shows you are willing to go to any length to try and "win", even if you are wrong.

[PlsNoBan]

Thanks for admitting you are trolling, again. It does invalidate your points, because it is clear you are not interested in having a genuine debate. You just want to "win" against me for some silly reason. I got you angry, and you want revenge. That doesn't mean you are correct.

Thanks for admitting defeat by latching on to the only talking point you haven't talked yourself out of. Complaining that people are trolling or calling you names. Sorry that's all you got left buddy. Unfortunately the thread topic isn't "Who trolls the least?" so what you're discussing isn't really relevant to the topic at hand. Facts are not invalidated by trolling no matter how much you wish that to be the case.

[Vexenu]

Is that a Cleric in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thanks for admitting defeat by latching on to the only talking point you haven't talked yourself out of. Complaining that people are trolling or calling you names. Sorry that's all you got left buddy. Unfortunately the thread topic isn't "Who trolls the least?" so what you're discussing isn't really relevant to the topic at hand. Facts are not invalidated by trolling no matter how much you wish that to be the case.

I haven't admitted defeat at all.

The current data supports my position. Why would I concede?

You have lost by admitting you are trolling, which invalidates your points. How can we judge what is fact and what is fiction when your goal is to win, not to find the truth?

You can provide relevant data and stop trolling at any time, instead of just rage posting.

[PlsNoBan]

You have lost by admitting you are trolling, which invalidates your points.

https://i.imgur.com/rmqPaM3.gif

You've given up on making legitimate arguments cause you've talked yourself into a corner that you can't escape. So now all you have left is to just whine about trolling like that means anything. Save whatever shred of dignity you have left and stop posting.


P.S. Funny how you were too busy to group with Allishya and get real data to prove your bullshit but you aren't too busy to post here once every 30 seconds. Odd how that works.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You've given up on making legitimate arguments cause you've talked yourself into a corner that you can't escape. So now all you have left is to just whine about trolling like that means anything. Save whatever shred of dignity you have left and stop posting.


P.S. Funny how you were too busy to group with Allishya and get real data to prove your bullshit but you aren't too busy to post here once every 30 seconds. Odd how that works.

You do realize Allishia is playing later tonight right? Last time I checked, later tonight isn't now:) Funny how people can have plans at different times of day.

[PlsNoBan]

He's now admitted that mage is better at royals and necro is better at fungi king. He's basically just clinging on to shaman being helpful for ixiblat and maybe like WW dragons? He's backed himself into a very tiny corner with his own words at this point. Would ANYBODY base their entire group makeup for 1-60 and beyond around what class makes more sense for Ixiblat? Or would you take a mage/necro that makes more sense in the vast majority of cases? I played actively on blue for YEARS and I think I killed Ixiblat like twice.

This thread really should be over. I know it won't end. But DSM literally backed himself into a tiny corner and the floor has fallen out beneath him. He's dangling by a thread and is going to continue to argue from there I'm sure.

I said all of this before, you just aren't reading, as usual. You simply have this strange straw man that I am obsessed with Shamans.

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

[cyxthryth]

you've talked yourself into a corner that you can't escape. So now all you have left is to just whine about trolling like that means anything.

Hehe. :) This really isn't hard.

[PlsNoBan]

Hehe. :) This really isn't hard.

The post history is very clear isn't it?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The post history is very clear isn't it?

It is indeed! We can agree on that. It looks really bad for you though, especially since you have admitted to trolling multiple times. Your hundreds if insult/meme posts don't add to your credibility either.

[PlsNoBan]

It is indeed! We can agree on that. It looks really bad for you though, especially since you have admitted to trolling multiple times.

You've given up on making legitimate arguments cause you've talked yourself into a corner that you can't escape. So now all you have left is to just whine about trolling like that means anything. Save whatever shred of dignity you have left and stop posting.

Seriously man. Not even joking anymore. If this is all you have to say you should give up. If the best counter argument you have is "Yeah well ur a big meanie!" then you have thoroughly lost and need to acknowledge it and stop the madness. I know 6 year olds that can argue better than this.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Seriously man. Not even joking anymore. If this is all you have to say you should give up. If the best counter argument you have is "Yeah well ur a big meanie!" then you have thoroughly lost and need to acknowledge it and stop the madness. I know 6 year olds that can argue better than this.

If you are being serious, you need to look in a mirror. I have provided plenty of evidence to support my arguments. You haven't supplied even one parse.

I am sorry, but trolling/memeing/insulting and claiming "I am right and you are wrong" are not valid arguments. This will continue to be true, regardless of how often you post.

[cd288]

Wow you were right he just can’t let it go. He’s never gonna stop whining about how he got talked into a corner without realizing it until it was too late. And you know he’s infuriated because he can’t admit he’s wrong and people got him to admit it himself without him realizing lol.

Anyway gotta jet downtown. Traffic from midtown to downtown nyc gets bad on fridays and I need to get some cocktails. Enjoy your weekend posting over and over about how no one proves you wrong DSM. Thrilling weekend ahead for you!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wow you were right he just can’t let it go. He’s never gonna stop whining about how he got talked into a corner without realizing it until it was too late. And you know he’s infuriated because he can’t admit he’s wrong and people got him to admit it himself without him realizing lol.

Anyway gotta jet downtown. Traffic from midtown to downtown nyc gets bad on fridays and I need to get some cocktails. Enjoy your weekend posting over and over about how no one proves you wrong DSM. Thrilling weekend ahead for you!

You still haven't provided the quote where you think I got talked into a corner.

I know you won't provide it either, because you have probably already realized you didn't read it correctly. Not reading or reading things incorrectly is a clear habit of yours.

[PlsNoBan]

If you are being serious, you need to look in a mirror. I have provided plenty of evidence to support my arguments. You haven't supplied even one parse.

I am sorry, but trolling/memeing/insulting and claiming "I am right and you are wrong" are not valid arguments. This will continue to be true, regardless of how often you post.

Trolling doesn't invalidate facts. If I said 2+2=4 but called you a name and posted a meme gif underneath it does 2+2 cease to = 4? Are you actually this unintelligent or are you just pretending?

Know what else you have provided in addition to your questionable evidence? You've provided words that contradict your argument. Thus backing yourself into a corner you cannot and will not escape from. I'll be here to remind everyone about that for as long as I have to be. Shamans do not belong in the best overall 4 caster/priest group. You admitted as much with your own words. Shamans are only justified in this group for a very small amount of niche situations. Maybe if someone starts a "What's the best 4 caster/priest group for Ixiblat?" thread then we can let you win in that one. Until that point I suggest you admit defeat and stop posting. Especially if the only thing you have to say is "Waaahhhh u guys are big meanies so u must be wrong and I'm right".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Trolling doesn't invalidate facts. If I said 2+2=4 but called you a name and posted a meme gif underneath it does 2+2 cease to = 4? Are you actually this unintelligent or are you just pretending?

Know what else you have provided in addition to your questionable evidence? You've provided words that contradict your argument. Thus backing yourself into a corner you cannot and will not escape from. I'll be here to remind everyone about that for as long as I have to be. Shamans do not belong in the best overall 4 caster/priest group. You admitted as much with your own words. Shamans are only justified in this group for a very small amount of niche situations. Maybe if someone starts a "What's the best 4 caster/priest group for Ixiblat?" thread then we can let you win in that one. Until that point I suggest you admit defeat and stop posting. Especially if the only thing you have to say is "Waaahhhh u guys are big meanies so u must be wrong and I'm right".

If you are being serious, what evidence do you have to support your claim I have "questionable evidence"? The math I provided matched the videos I provided, and you can cross reference the logs to the videos, to make sure I am not cheating.

It is not my fault you seriously think class DPS can only be determined by gathering group data. Please answer this question honestly:

"If I provided 1000 data sets of a group where a Mage parsed at 40 DPS due to his group members sucking, does that mean a Mage's DPS in a group is an average of 40?"

[Tewaz]

God I love all these posts where someone asks a question and it devolves into an absolute shit fest.

[cd288]

You still haven't provided the quote where you think I got talked into a corner.

I know you won't provide it either, because you have probably already realized you didn't read it correctly. Not reading or reading things incorrectly is a clear habit of yours.

Well because you just post non stop I’d have to go search back through like 30 pages now to find it and I’m about to log off my comp for the day so if you’d like you could go scroll through your novel length posts to find the two comments I’m referencing.

I’ll see you on Sunday when you’ve added another two hundred posts here because you have nothing better to do this weekend (or am I wrong about that? In which case if I am you could prove us wrong by not posting here at all)

[PlsNoBan]

If you are being serious, what evidence do you have to support your claim I have "questionable evidence"? The math I provided matched the videos I provided, and you can cross reference the logs to the videos, to make sure I am not cheating.

It is not my fault you seriously think class DPS can only be determined by gathering group data. Please answer this question honestly:

"If I provided 1000 data sets of a group where a Mage parsed at 40 DPS due to his group members sucking, does that mean a Mage's DPS in a group is an average of 40?"

Don't change the subject. We've discussed why your evidence is shit at great length. Variables change things and your napkin math isn't how things will necessarily play out in the real world. This is why many people have suggested you go get applicable data in a real life scenario but you have thus far refused to do so.

Back on topic: You have talked yourself into a corner and need to give it up. It doesn't matter who trolled or how much. It doesn't matter what names anyone called anyone else. What matters is this thread is asking for the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" and by your own words and admission that answer does not include shaman outside of a very small amount of niche situations. Your argument all along has been for including shaman in that 4 man group with the understanding that OP was asking what the best OVERALL 4 man caster group was. They didn't ask what the best is for ixiblat. You have contradicted yourself and it's time to end this.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Don't change the subject. We've discussed why your evidence is shit at great length. Variables change things and your napkin math isn't how things will necessarily play out in the real world. This is why many people have suggested you go get applicable data in a real life scenario but you have thus far refused to do so.

Back on topic: You have talked yourself into a corner and need to give it up. It doesn't matter who trolled or how much. It doesn't matter what names anyone called anyone else. What matters is this thread is asking for the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" and by your own words and admission that answer does not include shaman outside of a very small amount of niche situations. Your argument all along has been for including shaman in that 4 man group with the understanding that OP was asking what the best OVERALL 4 man caster group was. They didn't ask what the best is for ixiblat. You have contradicted yourself and it's time to end this.

Ah, so you are not serious. Back to trolling I see. Please answer my question, or admit you can't even show why you think my evidence is wrong.

Well because you just post non stop I’d have to go search back through like 30 pages now to find it and I’m about to log off my comp for the day so if you’d like you could go scroll through your novel length posts to find the two comments I’m referencing.

I’ll see you on Sunday when you’ve added another two hundred posts here because you have nothing better to do this weekend (or am I wrong about that? In which case if I am you could prove us wrong by not posting here at all)

Called it. You don't even know where you think this happened, nor can you prove it happened.

[PlsNoBan]

I suggest you admit defeat and stop posting. Especially if the only thing you have to say is "Waaahhhh u guys are big meanies so u must be wrong and I'm right".

Waaahhhh u guys are big meanies so u must be wrong and I'm right

This is really really sad. He knows he's lost the actual argument but his brain literally will not allow a concession so he's just going to keep whining about trolling instead as if anyone actually cares lol. Give it up DSM. You contradicted your own argument. Whining about trolling isn't an argument. Log off the forums and go do whatever you're so busy with tonight. You need a break from this.

[cyxthryth]

Ah, so you are not serious. Back to trolling I see.



Called it. You don't even know where you think this happened, nor can you prove it happened.

Check the post history of this thread (particularly the posts that you have ignored, misunderstood and/or [intentionally or otherwise] misconstrued your true understanding of), it speaks for itself.

This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is really really sad. He knows he's lost the actual argument but his brain literally will not allow a concession so he's just going to keep whining about trolling instead as if anyone actually cares lol. Give it up DSM. You contradicted your own argument. Whining about trolling isn't an argument. Log off the forums and go do whatever you're so busy with tonight. You need a break from this.


It is not my fault you seriously think class DPS can only be determined by gathering group data. Please answer this question honestly:

"If I provided 1000 data sets of a group where a Mage parsed at 40 DPS due to his group members sucking, does that mean a Mage's DPS in a group is an average of 40?"

[PlsNoBan]

"If I provided 1000 data sets of a group where a Mage parsed at 40 DPS due to his group members sucking, does that mean a Mage's DPS in a group is an average of 40?"


Nope. It's the same as you providing 1 dataset of you soloing a mob. It's the wrong conditions to gather the data that is relevant to this discussion. Reminder: The discussion is about a 4 man caster group where all players are assumed at least moderately good at the game. A 60 mage under these conditions would parse higher than 40 dps every time. This argument you're trying to make is absurd. As are most arguments you try to make.

[PlsNoBan]

He's now admitted that mage is better at royals and necro is better at fungi king. He's basically just clinging on to shaman being helpful for ixiblat and maybe like WW dragons? He's backed himself into a very tiny corner with his own words at this point. Would ANYBODY base their entire group makeup for 1-60 and beyond around what class makes more sense for Ixiblat? Or would you take a mage/necro that makes more sense in the vast majority of cases? I played actively on blue for YEARS and I think I killed Ixiblat like twice.

This thread really should be over. I know it won't end. But DSM literally backed himself into a tiny corner and the floor has fallen out beneath him. He's dangling by a thread and is going to continue to argue from there I'm sure.

I said all of this before, you just aren't reading, as usual. You simply have this strange straw man that I am obsessed with Shamans.

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nope. It's the same as you providing 1 dataset of you soloing a mob. It's the wrong conditions to gather the data that is relevant to this discussion. Reminder: The discussion is about a 4 man caster group where all players are assumed at least moderately good at the game. A 60 mage under these conditions would parse higher than 40 dps every time. This argument you're trying to make is absurd. As are most arguments you try to make.

Thank you. You have proven my point.

You cannot control what the other 3 members of your group are doing (unless you are boxing lol). Remember, you have to gather DPS data in the real game, not the hypothetical where you assume everybody is perfect. That isn't always the case.

If I provided group DPS numbers where my Shaman was root/rotting because the group allowed me, you would say that isn't fair, not correct, etc.

The only way to show the absolute most fair and balanced representation of class DPS is to provide the same kind of data I have, in a situation without these outside elements.

Then you can show what average DPS looks like between the classes, assuming your group is playing well.

[PlsNoBan]

Thank you. You have proven my point.

You cannot control what the other 3 members of your group are doing (unless you are boxing lol). Remember, you have to gather DPS data in the real game, not the hypothetical where you assume everybody is perfect. That isn't always the case.

If I provided group DPS numbers where my Shaman was root/rotting because the group allowed me, you would say that isn't fair, not correct, etc.

The only way to show the absolute most fair and balanced representation of class DPS is to provide the same kind of data I have, in a situation without these outside elements.

Then you can show what average DPS looks like between the classes, assuming your group is playing well.

You're assuming that you are a good player which is questionable at best since you think 2 encs and a cleric is gonna wipe all the time without a shaman for safety. Again you keep trying to change the subject. Let's get back on topic: You have contradicted yourself into a corner. Shaman does not belong in the best 4 man caster group outside of a couple niche situations. This is your own words. The question at hand was a general question. Nobody asked about ixiblat. Therefore your argument for shaman being included in the best 4 man caster group is invalidated by your own admission.

https://i.imgur.com/jvT3b9a.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're assuming that you are a good player which is questionable at best since you think 2 encs and a cleric is gonna wipe all the time without a shaman for safety. Again you keep trying to change the subject. Let's get back on topic: You have contradicted yourself into a corner. Shaman does not belong in the best 4 man caster group outside of a couple niche situations. This is your own words. The question at hand was a general question. Nobody asked about ixiblat. Therefore your argument for shaman being included in the best 4 man caster group is invalidated by your own admission.

Thank you for showing you cannot disprove what I just posted. Whenever this happens, you go back to trolling.

[cyxthryth]

Please answer this question honestly

Pleaded the 700+ poster who will neither acknowledge irrefutable facts nor answer the majority of my questions posed to him at all, much less answer them honestly hehe. :)

Remember, you have to gather DPS data in the real game, not the hypothetical where you assume everybody is perfect. That isn't always the case.

Stated the poster who has multiple posts (out of his single-handed 700+) in which he advocates for calculating raw class capabilities based on math and removing any player at all (let alone multiple players, as there would be in a 4 man group) from the equation. Hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

Thank you for showing you cannot disprove what I just posted. Whenever this happens, you go back to trolling.

I'm not trolling. I very seriously mean it when I say you backed yourself into a corner and disproved your own argument with your own words. You almost certainly didn't do this on purpose and you're probably upset at yourself for slipping and admitting you were wrong. You might even be mad at me for catching your slip and continuing to point it out to you. But at the end of the day none of this changes the facts. You have admitted that your 700+ post initial argument is incorrect with your own words.


Please take a break. You're flustered and desperate and your attempts to change the subject or make insane new arguments out of nowhere is embarrassing. Just pretend you're busy IRL and have stuff to do like you were doing earlier.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not trolling. I very seriously mean it when I say you backed yourself into a corner and disproved your own argument with your own words. You almost certainly didn't do this on purpose and you're probably upset at yourself for slipping and admitting you were wrong. You might even be mad at me for catching your slip and continuing to point it out to you. But at the end of the day none of this changes the facts. You have admitted that your 700+ post initial argument is incorrect with your own words.


Please take a break. You're flustered and desperate and your attempts to change the subject or make insane new arguments out of nowhere is embarrassing. Just pretend you're busy IRL and have stuff to do like you were doing earlier.

If you are serious, then you should understand the basic logic that gathering data in a group setting (especially only 1 set of data as Troxx has currently provided) is much more susceptible to manipulation via outside forces (your group members).

I can only assume you do get this, but cannot admit it because then you would be forced to concede my data isn't invalid. Once you concede that, then you admit the DPS gap isn't great.

[PlsNoBan]

If you are serious, then you should understand the basic logic that gathering data in a group setting (especially only 1 set of data as Troxx has currently provided) is much more susceptible to manipulation via outside forces (your group members).

I can only assume you do get this, but cannot admit it because then you would be forced to concede my data isn't invalid. Once you concede that, then you admit the DPS gap isn't great.

Please take a break. You're flustered and desperate and your attempts to change the subject or make insane new arguments out of nowhere is embarrassing. Just pretend you're busy IRL and have stuff to do like you were doing earlier.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am not flustered at all. You are simply keeping up with your trolling pattern because you know I am right.

If you are serious, then you should understand the basic logic that gathering data in a group setting (especially only 1 set of data as Troxx has currently provided) is much more susceptible to manipulation via outside forces (your group members).

I can only assume you do get this, but cannot admit it because then you would be forced to concede my data isn't invalid. Once you concede that, then you admit the DPS gap isn't great.

[PlsNoBan]

I'm not at all trolling right now and would have no problem admitting it if I was. You have invalidated your own argument (that you argued for 700+ posts) with your own words. I'm not sure why you're continuing to post at this point. Whether or not your data is valid or not doesn't even matter anymore. I think your data is trash and not relevant in the least to the discussion. But even if it was that doesn't make any difference. You admitted shamans only belong in this group in a couple niche situations. This disqualifies them from being the best overall pick for this group composition. Your data doesn't change this.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not at all trolling right now and would have no problem admitting it if I was. You have invalidated your own argument (that you argued for 700+ posts) with your own words. I'm not sure why you're continuing to post at this point. Whether or not your data is valid or not doesn't even matter anymore. I think your data is trash and not relevant in the least to the discussion. But even if it was that doesn't make any difference. You admitted shamans only belong in this group in a couple niche situations. This disqualifies them from being the best overall pick for this group composition. Your data doesn't change this.

This statement has no basis in fact. You cannot show why my data is trash, and you cannot show where I invalidated my argument.

Saying this 1000 times will not change that.

[PlsNoBan]

This statement has no basis in fact. You cannot show why my data is trash, and you cannot show where I invalidated my argument.

Saying this 1000 times will not change that.

If I agreed with your data being valid (I don't. But for the sake of argument). It doesn't change your situation. AGAIN you have invalidated your own argument with your own words. Your back is against the wall and you have no legitimate argument left so you're grasping at straws right now. I say again: Take a break. Nobody has to know it's because you lost. Just pretend your busy IRL like u did earlier.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If I agreed with your data being valid (I don't. But for the sake of argument). It doesn't change your situation. AGAIN you have invalidated your own argument with your own words. Your back is against the wall and you have no legitimate argument left so you're grasping at straws right now. I say again: Take a break. Nobody has to know it's because you lost. Just pretend your busy IRL like u did earlier.

Ok. So you agree with my data being valid. Great.

Now, show me where I invalidated my own argument.

[PlsNoBan]

Ok. So you agree with my data being valid. Great.

Now, show me where I invalidated my own argument.

I don't and you know it. You've admitted shamans are only best in this group for a couple niche situations. The question is about the best overall 4 man caster/priest group. By your own admission shaman does not fall into that category.


Please for the love of god take a break. It's super easy to be like "Hey guys I'm busy irl gonna stop posting for a little bit". Come back when you're less flustered and delusional. Maybe a nights sleep will help.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't and you know it. You've admitted shamans are only best in this group for a couple niche situations. The question is about the best overall 4 man caster/priest group. By your own admission shaman does not fall into that category.


Please for the love of god take a break. It's super easy to be like "Hey guys I'm busy irl gonna stop posting for a little bit". Come back when you're less flustered and delusional. Maybe a nights sleep will help.

Please show where you think I invalidated my own argument. You can stop posting and admit you are incorrect at any time.

[PlsNoBan]

He's now admitted that mage is better at royals and necro is better at fungi king. He's basically just clinging on to shaman being helpful for ixiblat and maybe like WW dragons? He's backed himself into a very tiny corner with his own words at this point. Would ANYBODY base their entire group makeup for 1-60 and beyond around what class makes more sense for Ixiblat? Or would you take a mage/necro that makes more sense in the vast majority of cases? I played actively on blue for YEARS and I think I killed Ixiblat like twice.

This thread really should be over. I know it won't end. But DSM literally backed himself into a tiny corner and the floor has fallen out beneath him. He's dangling by a thread and is going to continue to argue from there I'm sure.

I said all of this before, you just aren't reading, as usual. You simply have this strange straw man that I am obsessed with Shamans.

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

[Gloomlord]

Honestly, there might be a thing that gets him to shut up for good here. I don't know what it is.

I think basically we need to get video footage of a 2 enchanter, 1 cleric and 1 mage group doing Seb, then post the parse after an hour or two. Then do the same with mage swapped out for shaman.

But the most pertinent question is: why the fuck do we need to do that?!

DSM, just piss off already. Do you honestly believe your claim people are coming to this thread for your wisdom? Dream on, you cretin.

[PlsNoBan]

DSM hasn't posted in a full minute. He's either dead or cooking up a doozy of a delusional illogical post full of bullshit. My bet is on the latter

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think basically we need to get video footage of a 2 enchanter, 1 cleric and 1 mage group doing Seb, then post the parse after an hour or two. Then do the same with mage swapped out for shaman.

That would be great! Please provide this. It would be more productive than your last 100 posts or so that have zero evidence to back up your points.

[PlsNoBan]

That would be great! Please provide this. It would be more productive than your last 100 posts or so that have zero evidence to back up your points.

Please stop posting. You have invalidated your own argument by your own admissions. There is nothing left to discuss other than whining about trolls. Do you wanna continue doing that another couple hundred times?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please stop posting. You have invalidated your own argument by your own admissions. There is nothing left to discuss other than whining about trolls. Do you wanna continue doing that another couple hundred times?

Sure. You don't get to win a debate by trolling. That isn't how this works. You can provide evidence to back up your claims (which you haven't done so far) or concede at any time.

[PlsNoBan]

Sure. You don't get to win a debate by trolling. That isn't how this works. You can provide evidence to back up your claims (which you haven't done so far) or concede at any time.

I have nothing to concede. My argument has been correct all along. You recently admitted your argument was incorrect by mistake. Now you're trying to backpedal and make up new bullshit and whine about trolling over and over to deflect from your mistake. As you may have noticed I'm very persistent. I have no plan of letting you weasel out of this or forget that you contradicted yourself and admitted you were wrong whether you like it or not.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I have nothing to concede. My argument has been correct all along. You recently admitted your argument was incorrect by mistake. Now you're trying to backpedal and make up new bullshit and whine about trolling over and over to deflect from your mistake. As you may have noticed I'm very persistent. I have no plan of letting you weasel out of this or forget that you contradicted yourself and admitted you were wrong whether you like it or not.

None of this is true, and the post history hasn't changed lol. Just like your history of troll posting, you don't get to pretend it doesn't exist.

[PlsNoBan]

He's now admitted that mage is better at royals and necro is better at fungi king. He's basically just clinging on to shaman being helpful for ixiblat and maybe like WW dragons? He's backed himself into a very tiny corner with his own words at this point. Would ANYBODY base their entire group makeup for 1-60 and beyond around what class makes more sense for Ixiblat? Or would you take a mage/necro that makes more sense in the vast majority of cases? I played actively on blue for YEARS and I think I killed Ixiblat like twice.

This thread really should be over. I know it won't end. But DSM literally backed himself into a tiny corner and the floor has fallen out beneath him. He's dangling by a thread and is going to continue to argue from there I'm sure.

I said all of this before, you just aren't reading, as usual. You simply have this strange straw man that I am obsessed with Shamans.

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.


Post history couldn't be clearer

[PlsNoBan]

I have some actual RL plans unlike your pretend ones. So I gotta run for a bit. I suggest you take a break as well.

[Gloomlord]

That would be great! Please provide this. It would be more productive than your last 100 posts or so that have zero evidence to back up your points.

How was putting a solo situation with shaman evidence for shaman beating mage in group DPS?

Fuck off, you self-righteous arsehole.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How was putting a solo situation with shaman evidence for shaman beating mage in group DPS?

Fuck off, you self-righteous arsehole.

It is not my fault you seriously think class DPS can only be determined by gathering group data. Please answer this question honestly:

"If I provided 1000 data sets of a group where a Mage parsed at 40 DPS due to his group members sucking, does that mean a Mage's DPS in a group is an average of 40?"

Post history couldn't be clearer

The copy/paste you keep doing doesn't say what you think it says. But again, context is irrelevant to a troll who can only attempt "gotchas" at this point.

[Gloomlord]

So, what you're basically saying is: you know you're wrong but don't want to admit it.

Because when you say "It is not my fault you seriously think class DPS can only be determined by gathering group data.", that's just a cowardly gesture to avoid the reality of your remarks.

You cowardly proclaim "unreliable variables with teammates" when faced with the fact that shaman is completely outclassed by mage in the group DPS role.

Even if what you say is true, then how does the parse of your solo DPS have any merit either?

In either case, you're just a cowardly scumbag too afraid to concede.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So, what you're basically saying is: you know you're wrong but don't want to admit it.

Because when you say "It is not my fault you seriously think class DPS can only be determined by gathering group data.", that's just a cowardly gesture to avoid the reality of your remarks.

You cowardly proclaim "unreliable variables with teammates" when faced with the fact that shaman is completely outclassed by mage in the group DPS role.

Even if what you say is true, then how does the parse of your solo DPS have any merit either?

In either case, you're just a cowardly scumbag too afraid to concede.

You are completely misconstruing what I am asking.

If I parse really well on my Shaman because I have a group of amazing players, and the Mage parses average because their group is just average, that alone will skew the data. It is not an accurate representation of the DPS difference. This would work AGAINST the Mage, so I don't think you would want that.

The reason why you parse solo is because it removes all external variables, so you can get the true average DPS between the classes. That is the first step in determining the average difference between the classes.

Once you have that, you can take it a step further by trying to prove how easy/hard it is to hit those numbers in a group. However, you would need to have the same group for both the Shaman and the Mage to rule out the possibility that differences are caused by the difficulty of the class, and not the group members.

This is how you run experiments. You don't just test everything at once without knowing what variables are affecting which outcome.

[Gloomlord]

Pretty obvious neither I, nor PlsNoBan, are trolls with the frustrated manner in which we're typing to you.

That would completely defeat the purpose of our "trolling", wouldn't it?

People like you, and a few others I've encountered, make me seriously consider leaving this game. It's full of thoroughly unintelligent people and/or drug addicts.

When nearly the whole forum is united against you, you *KNOW* you're crazy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Pretty obvious neither I, nor PlsNoBan, are trolls with the frustrated manner in which we're typing to you.

That would completely defeat the purpose of our "trolling", wouldn't it?

People like you, and a few others I've encountered, make me seriously consider leaving this game. It's full of thoroughly unintelligent people and/or drug addicts.

When nearly the whole forum is united against you, you *KNOW* you're crazy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum is not an argument, it is a fallacy.

Please address my previous post.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3503292&postcount=2331

[Gloomlord]

You are completely misconstruing what I am asking.

If I parse really well on my Shaman because I have a group of amazing players, and the Mage parses average because their group is just average, that alone will skew the data. It is not an accurate representation of the DPS difference. This would work AGAINST the Mage, so I don't think you would want that.

The reason why you parse solo is because it removes all external variables, so you can get the true average DPS between the classes. That is the first step in determining the average difference between the classes.

Once you have that, you can take it a step further by trying to prove how easy/hard it is to hit those numbers in a group. However, you would need to have the same group for both the Shaman and the Mage to rule out the possibility that differences are caused by the difficulty of the class, and not the group members.

This is how you run experiments. You don't just test everything at once without knowing what variables are affecting which outcome.

You are a coward.

Parsing solo is irrelevant to group activities, you idiot. We've explained this to you several times.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are a coward.

Parsing solo is irrelevant to group activities, you idiot. We've explained this to you several times.

Insults are not an argument.

Please address this post https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3503292&postcount=2331 .

[cyxthryth]

Please address my previous post.


Pleaded the (700+ post) poster who has ignored or misconstrued his understanding (intentionally or otherwise) of many irrefutable facts, and has not answered the majority of the questions I have posed to him hehe. :)

[Gloomlord]

Notice the other things attached to "idiot" and "coward"?

Cowardly idiot.

Clutch tightly to "argumentum ad populum", you arrogant fuckwit.

[cyxthryth]

Oops, double post hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Notice the other things attached to "idiot" and "coward"?

Cowardly idiot.

Clutch tightly to "argumentum ad populum", you arrogant fuckwit.

Insults are not an argument.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3503292&postcount=2331 please address this. It should be trivial if you think you have done it already.

[Gloomlord]

Your insanity isn't an argument, either.

We're all supposed to "play nice", but DSM makes that impossible. Idiotic, dishonest filth like him should be playing WoW retail. I'm sure he'd fit in quite nicely...

And for the last time: I already addressed. At least 5 other people did also.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your insanity isn't an argument, either.

We're all supposed to "play nice", but DSM makes that impossible. Idiotic, dishonest filth like him should be playing WoW retail. I'm sure he'd fit in quite nicely...

And for the last time: I already addressed. At least 5 other people did also.

Insults are not an argument. The only person not playing nice is the person who wants to slap me in anger, because I disagreed with them on an elf forum. That is you.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3503292&postcount=2331 Please address this.

[Gloomlord]

Why do you keep saying that like you think that has any merit?

I'm peppering my arguments with insults, because you deserve every single insult thrown your direction.

I addressed it! Shut up already...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why do you keep saying that like you think that has any merit?

I'm peppering my arguments with insults, because you deserve every single insult thrown your direction.

I addressed it! Shut up already...

Insults are not an argument. You did not address this point either, you have always just said "Your evidence is obviously wrong". That also isn't an argument.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3503292&postcount=2331 - Please address this. It should be easy if you have actually done so.

[Gloomlord]

It's so obvious you're trolling. Come on...

Why did you repeat that three times already?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's so obvious you're trolling. Come on...

Why did you repeat that three times already?

Insulting me three times because you can't disprove what I said is trolling. Me asking you to provide evidence as to why I am wrong is not trolling.

The issue is you know you can't address this point, so you have to result to insults in the hope I go away.

[PlsNoBan]

It's pretty wild witnessing this level of mental illness first hand. Reminder that DSM has contradicted himself and by his own admission invalidated his argument. His attempts to change the subject and backpedal and whine about perceived troll posters is just a deflection.

He's now admitted that mage is better at royals and necro is better at fungi king. He's basically just clinging on to shaman being helpful for ixiblat and maybe like WW dragons? He's backed himself into a very tiny corner with his own words at this point. Would ANYBODY base their entire group makeup for 1-60 and beyond around what class makes more sense for Ixiblat? Or would you take a mage/necro that makes more sense in the vast majority of cases? I played actively on blue for YEARS and I think I killed Ixiblat like twice.

This thread really should be over. I know it won't end. But DSM literally backed himself into a tiny corner and the floor has fallen out beneath him. He's dangling by a thread and is going to continue to argue from there I'm sure.

I said all of this before, you just aren't reading, as usual. You simply have this strange straw man that I am obsessed with Shamans.

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's pretty wild witnessing this level of mental illness first hand. Reminder that DSM has contradicted himself and by his own admission invalidated his argument. His attempts to change the subject and backpedal and whine about perceived troll posters is just a deflection.

It is sad you have to keep insulting people who you disagree with, instead of providing evidence.

Posting conversations out of context is not winning the debate. It is a poor attempt at trying to win without evidence.

[Gloomlord]

I'm actually astonished how people are more patient than I am with him.

This guy is one of the most obtuse people I've ever seen on a forum, excluding paid shills that control dissent.

[PlsNoBan]

1: You're the biggest troll here

2: Trolling doesn't invalidate facts

3: The quotes are well within context. You're just mad that you slipped up and accidentally admitted your argument is wrong

4: No evidence is needed when your opponent in the debate openly admits to being wrong (whether accidental or not)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm actually astonished how people are more patient than I am with him.

This guy is one of the most obtuse people I've ever seen on a forum, excluding paid shills that control dissent.

You continue to dodge https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3503292&postcount=2331 with insults.

You have yet to show why this isn't true.

[Gloomlord]

Hello Darkness, my old friend...

[PlsNoBan]

You continue to dodge https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3503292&postcount=2331 with insults.

You have yet to show why this isn't true.

LOL he's still trying to justify why a solo parse is valid when the argument is about DPS in a group. Deflecting from the fact that he contradicted himself and admitted his 700+ post argument was incorrect.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

LOL he's still trying to justify why a solo parse is valid when the argument is about DPS in a group. Deflecting from the fact that he contradicted himself and admitted his 700+ post argument was incorrect.

I am not deflecting anything. You simply believe you have proven something when you haven't.

You have convinced yourself that because other people agree with you, you must be right.

[Gloomlord]

LOL he's still trying to justify why a solo parse is valid when the argument is about DPS in a group. Deflecting from the fact that he contradicted himself and admitted his 700+ post argument was incorrect.

Oh but but but....

'Solo parse is the most accurate way to gauge a class's group DPS. A parse done with a group is too susceptible to unknown variables"

https://c.tenor.com/3a1QnGpLhiYAAAAC/you-dense-you-dense-motherfucker.gif

[PlsNoBan]

I am not deflecting anything. You simply believe you have proven something when you haven't.

You have convinced yourself that because other people agree with you, you must be right.

The post history doesn't lie. You openly and clearly admitted shamans are only preferable for a small number of niche situations. The question was about the best 4 man caster/priest group. Not the best group for ixiblat. You posted a fallacious argument 700+ times and now you're unwilling to admit defeat even after openly contradicting yourself. You can keep trying to weasel your way out of this but I won't allow it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh but but but....

'Solo parse is the most accurate way to gauge a class's group DPS. A parse done with a group is too susceptible to unknown variables"


This is not an argument as to why you disagree with me. You keep repeating I am wrong, and you have convinced yourself that you have proven it somewhere, when you haven't.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3503292&postcount=2331

I am waiting for your reply about this post.

You can keep trying to weasel your way out of this but I won't allow it.

As I said, you have no interest in having an honest debate. You just want to "win", because you think you are right. It doesn't mean you are right, you just think so.

[PlsNoBan]

As I said, you have no interest in having an honest debate. You just want to "win", because you think you are right. It doesn't mean you are right, you just think so.


You haven't had an honest debate in your life. I'm right because you admitted I was right with your own words when you contradicted yourself and accidentally made my argument for me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You haven't had an honest debate in your life. I'm right because you admitted I was right with your own words when you contradicted yourself and accidentally made my argument for me.

No, you have simply deceived yourself into thinking so because you are absolutely desperate to be right here.

Sadly you have admitted to trolling, and admitted to trying to "win" the debate at any cost.

I am not sure why this makes you credible. It is clear you would say anything to "win".

[Gloomlord]

Why do you keep linking that? I told you -- and nearly everyone else told you -- that a solo parse is not accurate to a mob dying to two enchanter charms in a group.

Oh, I see! It's because you're trying to be as annoying as possible, right?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why do you keep linking that? I told you -- and nearly everyone else told you -- that a solo parse is not accurate to a mob dying to two enchanter charms in a group.

Oh, I see! It's because you're trying to be as annoying as possible, right?

You have never explained why. You just keep saying it is not accurate.

I could do the same thing, and we would be at an impasse. The only person being annoying here is yourself, because you know you can't actually explain why you think it's wrong.

[Gloomlord]

No, you have simply deceived yourself into thinking so because you are absolutely desperate to be right here.

Sadly you have admitted to trolling, and admitted to trying to "win" the debate at any cost.

I am not sure why this makes you credible. It is clear you would say anything to "win".

See: this is the problem with malevolent lunatics, PNB...

By that admittance, you just gave his childishness and insanity ammunition against you, even though he completely ignored the full reason for that admittance.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

See: this is the problem with malevolent lunatics, PNB...

By that admittance, you just gave his childishness and insanity ammunition against you, even though he completely ignored the full reason for that admittance.

Reading things out of context or in a way that makes you feel better isn't an admittance by me.

[Gloomlord]

I was addressing PNB through your quote, you idiot.

He admitted he was trolling, even though he said it's because you were such a prick you deserved it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I was addressing PNB through your quote, you idiot.

He admitted he was trolling, even though he said it's because you were such a prick you deserved it.

You are also admitting to trolling. You are so angry at what I have said you think I deserve being insulted. How petty.

If you disagree, just say so and move on. This says more about you than it does about me.

[PlsNoBan]

Reminder for the mass group of silent readers. DSM has discredited himself by a clear contradiction to his 700+ post argument and refusal to acknowledge it and admit he was wrong. He is now in full deflect mode and will say anything to dodge the fact that he contradicted himself. His favorites so far are: Whining about people being trolls or insulting him, talking about how his solo data is relevant for some reason, pretending his contradiction was out of context when it very clearly was not. I'm not a doctor but some form of mental illness seems very likely. I genuinely wish he would give this thread a rest for the sake of his own health.

He's now admitted that mage is better at royals and necro is better at fungi king. He's basically just clinging on to shaman being helpful for ixiblat and maybe like WW dragons? He's backed himself into a very tiny corner with his own words at this point. Would ANYBODY base their entire group makeup for 1-60 and beyond around what class makes more sense for Ixiblat? Or would you take a mage/necro that makes more sense in the vast majority of cases? I played actively on blue for YEARS and I think I killed Ixiblat like twice.

This thread really should be over. I know it won't end. But DSM literally backed himself into a tiny corner and the floor has fallen out beneath him. He's dangling by a thread and is going to continue to argue from there I'm sure.

I said all of this before, you just aren't reading, as usual. You simply have this strange straw man that I am obsessed with Shamans.

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

[Gloomlord]

I didn't admit to trolling; I admitted to being angry with you.

Can't even concede to this misconstruction either. How predictable...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I didn't admit to trolling; I admitted to being angry with you.

Can't even concede to this misconstruction either. How predictable...

Exactly. You are angry at me, which is why you are posting insults instead of backing up your points with evidence and logic. I am sorry, but that is trolling. You haven't contributed anything.

[Karanis]

DSM: 1+1=3

Everyone: No it doesn't, you absolute dumbfuck.

DSM: Uhh, yes it does, and you're totally wrong because you insulted me!

Everyone:
18727

[Gloomlord]

Like your solo DPS as shaman was a contribution?

Hahaha!

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/Zd9XgQD.png

https://i.imgur.com/jsQwzRO.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Like your solo DPS as shaman was a contribution?

Hahaha!


Of course. I have provided hard evidence directly from the game. You haven't.

[Gloomlord]

DSM: 1+1=3

Everyone: No it doesn't, you absolute dumbfuck.

DSM: Uhh, yes it does, and you're totally wrong because you insulted me!

Everyone:
18727

Everyone: Shaman solo DPS is not indicative of a shaman's DPS capabilities in a group with two charms.

DSM: Uhhhh, yes, it is! That takes out all the variables!

Everyone: But then how is that parse accurate to the discussion at hand?

DSM: My solo parse is the most accurate we're getting to the truth!

Everyone: I don't know, that sounds kind of stupid to us.

DSM: INSULTS! ALL YOU HAVE ARE INSULTS! TROLLS!

[PlsNoBan]

Everyone: Shaman solo DPS is not indicative of a shaman's DPS capabilities in a group with two charms.

DSM: Uhhhh, yes, it is! That takes out all the variables!

Everyone: But then how is that parse accurate to the discussion at hand?

DSM: My solo parse is the most accurate we're getting to the truth!

Everyone: I don't know, that sounds kind of stupid to us.

DSM: INSULTS! ALL YOU HAVE ARE INSULTS! TROLLS!

https://i.imgur.com/MrWqZAh.gif

[Karanis]

18728

[cyxthryth]

Hehe. :)

[slard271]

If I could buy calls on this thread count I'd be leveraged to the hilt.

Also, I keep the shaman "I winz" spell in my top slot so I can clickie refresh and chain cast because it casts all my utility and healing and DPS spells instantly and also root rots all mobs within 200 clicks of my loc.

[PlsNoBan]

If I could buy calls on this thread count I'd be leveraged to the hilt.

Also, I keep the shaman "I winz" spell in my top slot so I can clickie refresh and chain cast because it casts all my utility and healing and DPS spells instantly and also root rots all mobs within 200 clicks of my loc.

I was wondering how DSM is able to heal and dps and slow and malo and canni while root rotting adds all simultaneously like he seemed to imply he was doing. They must've added that spell after I quit.

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/5qHiT7e.png

You guys think he's pretending to be busy irl like he said earlier? He's obviously still online and reading all this

[PlsNoBan]

and then he goes offline. Weird coincidence.

[Chortles Snortles]

can't wait for Allishias DPS parse dropping event

https://i.imgur.com/RUBJxEq.gif

[Ripqozko]

can't wait for Allishias DPS parse dropping event

https://i.imgur.com/RUBJxEq.gif

She will never post any, she will get tied up trying to tank mystical dragons drunk.

[Chortles Snortles]

oh no

[Karanis]

18731

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/5qHiT7e.png

You guys think he's pretending to be busy irl like he said earlier? He's obviously still online and reading all this

and then he goes offline. Weird coincidence.

This is honestly the saddest and creepiest post I have seen here. You are the one that needs a break.

To accommodate said break, I will not be posting again until someone can do the following:

1. Show my data is invalid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E , and the math provided here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3501705&postcount=1774

2. Provide DPS data for Mages that is different enough from Troxx's.

3. Show why saving 5 seconds on a kill is going to help the group in a meaningful way.

None of these points have happened in this bloated thread, regardless of how many times the trolls will claim they have.

Everybody has agreed the fourth player's DPS is irrelevant in an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/<insert class> group. This is what I said on Page 2:

The Enchanters are providing the vast majority of the DPS via charmed pets. The Mage pet isn't doing that much hehe. Shamans can do fine DPS-wise.


If you do what I suggested on page 1 and swap an Enchanter for a Necro, your DPS will still be fine:

Shaman Enchanter Enchanter Cleric. If you are planning on doing Fungi Tunic camp then probably swap 1 Enchanter for a Necro, so they can pull.

Everybody has agreed what the Mage brings to the table is simply CoTH and a little bit of extra DPS. I also said this on page 2:

Having mana sitting is good when Charm can break at any time:) Your group is dead if you can't control the situation. Shaman gives you much better consistency, and you don't really lose DPS when compared to a Mage.

Mage is better before level 60 or if you need CoTH.

The trolls have already admitted they are trolling, and only want to "win" against me because it matters to them for some silly reason. That is not how debate or truth works.

As I summarized before, the question is simply do you want a faster leveling experience from 1-60 (Mage), or better ability to do camps at level 60 (Shaman)? I prefer the Shaman, because leveling from 1-60 with a four caster group is going to be fast enough. The Mage simply doesn't offer enough at the end, when people are farming items. The only exception to this is if you are planning on doing camps where CoTH can help. If this is the case though, you can still do Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage for the maximum ability to do any camp you desire, while still DPSing fine. People think pocket clerics are silly for some reason, but it isn't hard to level a cleric to 49 for the 90% res and Complete Healing between four players. A pocket cleric would go great with the Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage combo, as you can switch to it for reses and healing the pets with CH as necessary.

Finally, the reason why DPS isn't as important as people claim is due to DPS breakpoints. Here is an example:

If a group has 100 DPS, a mob with 8000 HP will die in 80 seconds.

If a group has 200 DPS, a mob with 8000 HP will die in 40 seconds.

If a group has 400 DPS, a mob with 8000 HP will die in 20 seconds.

For most level 60 content in the game, 200 DPS is the ideal threshold. As you can see, going from 200 to 400 only gives you half the bonus (20 seconds vs. 40 seconds). You could reach 400 DPS if you did a group with 4x Enchanters, but everybody seems to agree that is too risky. The amount of time you save on kills isn't worth the added risk of dying. People already know that safety is better than DPS in this situation. A group with 2x Enchanters and a group with an Enchanter/Mage/Necro/Shaman will hit the 200 DPS threshold. Luckily it is not a tough threshold to hit.

There will be a bunch of silly posts after this I predict.

[Gloomlord]

Yes, we're all trolls. Every single one of us.

Keep telling yourself those lies -- maybe you'll stop hating yourself as much?

[Toxigen]

He's so obsessed with shamans he's suggesting they be part of the best overall 4 man caster group (including 1-60) solely for ixiblat and ww dragons lol.

How can you reason with someone this detached from reality?

You should see him defend SK. Equally hilarious.

[PlsNoBan]

Blah blah blah blah blah lots of meaningless words all trying to deflect from the fact that I contradicted myself and invalidated my own argument and now I'm trying to pretend I didn't

He's now admitted that mage is better at royals and necro is better at fungi king. He's basically just clinging on to shaman being helpful for ixiblat and maybe like WW dragons? He's backed himself into a very tiny corner with his own words at this point. Would ANYBODY base their entire group makeup for 1-60 and beyond around what class makes more sense for Ixiblat? Or would you take a mage/necro that makes more sense in the vast majority of cases? I played actively on blue for YEARS and I think I killed Ixiblat like twice.

This thread really should be over. I know it won't end. But DSM literally backed himself into a tiny corner and the floor has fallen out beneath him. He's dangling by a thread and is going to continue to argue from there I'm sure.

I said all of this before, you just aren't reading, as usual. You simply have this strange straw man that I am obsessed with Shamans.

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

I'm sorry that shaman is only the right choice in extremely niche situations. I know how much you would enjoy it if shaman was part of the best overall 4 man caster/priest group. Unfortunately they are not by your own admission. Everyone else already knew this. Took you over 700 posts to accidentally admit it but now that we're here you can finally stop posting. We all know for absolute certain now that you're completely full of shit if you continue trying to argue the same argument you already admitted you were wrong about.

I hope you take an indefinite break from this thread until people do whatever dumb shit you asked them to do. Nobody is ever gonna do it and they don't have to. You thoroughly lost the argument. We can all agree to be done here now. If someone posts asking about the best 4 man caster group for ixiblat then we can re-visit this issue.

[Allishia]

/g Combined: A rock golem in 925s, 167k @181 | Lasobn 50906@55 (55 in 923s) | Minweeni 37243@40 (40 in 921s) | Allisna 27601@30 (30 in 919s) | Drayce 27156@29 (29 in 924s) | Taringail 20656@22 (26 in 795s) | Jenartik 1366@1 (11 in 120s) | Lobn 926@1 (12 in 78s) | Jibarab 685@1 (6 in 122s) | Xendary 430@0 (1 in 340s) | Emmure 148@0 (0 in 321s)

Lasobn is my pet.

/g Combined: An elemental warrior in 222s, 32863 @148 | Allisna 20280@91 (91 in 222s) | Xasanab 12583@57 (65 in 194s)


/g Combined: A drolvarg bodyguard in 216s, 34323 @159 | Koner 11872@55 (56 in 211s) | Blanka 8811@41 (41 in 213s) | Smuggla 7796@36 (39 in 202s) | Allisna 5844@27 (28 in 210s) | Bluzkie 0@0 (0 in 0s)


/g Decayed prisoner in 23s, 5025 @218 | Koner 1653@72 (87 in 19s) | Allisna 1333@58 (70 in 19s) | Smuggla 1022@44 (57 in 18s) | Blanka 1017@44 (44 in 23s)

/g A drolvarg pawbuster in 43s, 7941 @185 | Koner 2484@58 (67 in 37s) | Blanka 2097@49 (49 in 43s) | Smuggla 1836@43 (51 in 36s) | Allisna 1524@35 (48 in 32s)

/g Combined: Decayed soldier in 927s, 142k @153 | Allisna 38571@42 (46 in 843s) | Labaner 36852@40 (41 in 897s) | Vabarn 35988@39 (42 in 849s) | Neonne 26081@28 (31 in 853s) | Decayed soldier 3438@4 (4 in 855s) | Decayed prisoner 607@1 (14 in 44s) | Doomzday 0@0 (0 in 0s) | Reque 0@0 (0 in 0s) | Dybwin 0@0 (0 in 0s)

/g Combined: A drolvarg bodyguard in 369s, 35262 @96 | Lobarer 17817@48 (49 in 367s) | Allisna 17445@47 (47 in 369s)

/g Combined: A shard spider in 1187s, 189k @159 | Allisna 55757@47 (49 in 1143s) | Kabarn 51844@44 (52 in 992s) | Lasantik 36833@31 (31 in 1185s) | Banedeath 33443@28 (49 in 679s) | Garobtik 5999@5 (52 in 115s) | Kaytt 5187@4 (4 in 1184s) | Crankee 74@0 (1 in 120s) | Jimee 0@0 (0 in 0s) | Belshazar 0@0 (0 in 0s) | Triumphant 0@0 (0 in 0s)

I can send you my log file if that helps too, ping me on discord /nod :p

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data. This was a level 60 water pet?

[Ripqozko]

/g Combined: A rock golem in 925s, 167k @181 | Lasobn 50906@55 (55 in 923s) | Minweeni 37243@40 (40 in 921s) | Allisna 27601@30 (30 in 919s) | Drayce 27156@29 (29 in 924s) | Taringail 20656@22 (26 in 795s) | Jenartik 1366@1 (11 in 120s) | Lobn 926@1 (12 in 78s) | Jibarab 685@1 (6 in 122s) | Xendary 430@0 (1 in 340s) | Emmure 148@0 (0 in 321s)

Lasobn is my pet.

/g Combined: An elemental warrior in 222s, 32863 @148 | Allisna 20280@91 (91 in 222s) | Xasanab 12583@57 (65 in 194s)


/g Combined: A drolvarg bodyguard in 216s, 34323 @159 | Koner 11872@55 (56 in 211s) | Blanka 8811@41 (41 in 213s) | Smuggla 7796@36 (39 in 202s) | Allisna 5844@27 (28 in 210s) | Bluzkie 0@0 (0 in 0s)


/g Decayed prisoner in 23s, 5025 @218 | Koner 1653@72 (87 in 19s) | Allisna 1333@58 (70 in 19s) | Smuggla 1022@44 (57 in 18s) | Blanka 1017@44 (44 in 23s)

/g A drolvarg pawbuster in 43s, 7941 @185 | Koner 2484@58 (67 in 37s) | Blanka 2097@49 (49 in 43s) | Smuggla 1836@43 (51 in 36s) | Allisna 1524@35 (48 in 32s)

/g Combined: Decayed soldier in 927s, 142k @153 | Allisna 38571@42 (46 in 843s) | Labaner 36852@40 (41 in 897s) | Vabarn 35988@39 (42 in 849s) | Neonne 26081@28 (31 in 853s) | Decayed soldier 3438@4 (4 in 855s) | Decayed prisoner 607@1 (14 in 44s) | Doomzday 0@0 (0 in 0s) | Reque 0@0 (0 in 0s) | Dybwin 0@0 (0 in 0s)

/g Combined: A drolvarg bodyguard in 369s, 35262 @96 | Lobarer 17817@48 (49 in 367s) | Allisna 17445@47 (47 in 369s)

/g Combined: A shard spider in 1187s, 189k @159 | Allisna 55757@47 (49 in 1143s) | Kabarn 51844@44 (52 in 992s) | Lasantik 36833@31 (31 in 1185s) | Banedeath 33443@28 (49 in 679s) | Garobtik 5999@5 (52 in 115s) | Kaytt 5187@4 (4 in 1184s) | Crankee 74@0 (1 in 120s) | Jimee 0@0 (0 in 0s) | Belshazar 0@0 (0 in 0s) | Triumphant 0@0 (0 in 0s)

I can send you my log file if that helps too, ping me on discord /nod :p

Inb4 this is invalid and your parses mean nothing -DSM

[Allishia]

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data. This was a level 60 water pet?

my mage is lvl 58, dont have water pet, its epic fluffy :p

[Chortles Snortles]

BUT DOES THE PARSE INCLUDE SHAMAN ROOT ROTTING ADDS
(lol)

[PlsNoBan]

Ahh so a lvl 58 mage is doing more damage than a 60 shaman. Who'da thunk it?

Reminder before DSM inevitably tries to deflect and go into a bunch of irrelevant theoretical math: He contradicted himself and openly admitted shaman is only best for this group in very few niche situations. Everyone in this thread (including DSM) is now in agreement that shaman has no spot in best overall 4 person caster/priest group.

To accommodate said break, I will not be posting again until someone can do the following:

1. Show my data is invalid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E , and the math provided here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3501705&postcount=1774

2. Provide DPS data for Mages that is different enough from Troxx's.

3. Show why saving 5 seconds on a kill is going to help the group in a meaningful way.


Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

Sadly he didn't keep his word here. I suspected he would not. I was hoping he'd shut the fuck up and accept his obvious defeat.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ahh so a lvl 58 mage is doing more damage than a 60 shaman. Who'da thunk it?

Reminder before DSM inevitably tries to deflect and go into a bunch of irrelevant theoretical math: He contradicted himself and openly admitted shaman is only best for this group in very few niche situations. Everyone in this thread (including DSM) is now in agreement that shaman has no spot in best overall 4 person caster/priest group.


Sadly he didn't keep his word here. I suspected he would not. I was hoping he'd shut the fuck up and accept his obvious defeat.

This is just sad and cringe-worthy. I would say an Epic pet is different enough from Troxx's data, which is a level 60 unfocused water pet.

Providing logs is also different from Troxx's data.

It's great we get to see one in action. Will look through the logs later today.

[Chortles Snortles]

https://i.imgur.com/4CVqtT4.gif
second time he says he will look thru logs today
(LOL)

[PlsNoBan]

I will not be posting again until someone can do the following:

2. Provide DPS data for Mages that is different enough from Troxx's.

the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

[Chortles Snortles]

any minute now DSM is going to come in and say sorry guys i was wrong
(lol)

[Toxigen]

this is the dumbest shit in the history of elfsim forum-

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer when choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in this situation.

[Chortles Snortles]

https://i.imgur.com/LckUyX8.png

[PlsNoBan]

Oh look more data to prove what everyone already knew. Mage does way more damage than shaman. DSM has now admitted a shaman is only the best option in this group for very few niche situations. He is now in agreement with everyone else that mage is a better option than shaman for the vast majority of situations from lvling 1-60 and most lvl 60 activities outside of Ixiblat and 1 or 2 other things that aren't done regularly and are not camps you would sit at for hours or spend any significant length of time doing. Thus would not be something you would build your entire group around. An argument could be made for a 3rd enchanter or a necromancer. But a shaman is only a better option for very few things that are not worthy of building an entire group around.

He's now admitted that mage is better at royals and necro is better at fungi king. He's basically just clinging on to shaman being helpful for ixiblat and maybe like WW dragons? He's backed himself into a very tiny corner with his own words at this point. Would ANYBODY base their entire group makeup for 1-60 and beyond around what class makes more sense for Ixiblat? Or would you take a mage/necro that makes more sense in the vast majority of cases? I played actively on blue for YEARS and I think I killed Ixiblat like twice.

This thread really should be over. I know it won't end. But DSM literally backed himself into a tiny corner and the floor has fallen out beneath him. He's dangling by a thread and is going to continue to argue from there I'm sure.

I said all of this before, you just aren't reading, as usual. You simply have this strange straw man that I am obsessed with Shamans.

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

We all agree shaman does not belong in the best 4 man caster/priest group. Can we end this thread now?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh look more data to prove what everyone already knew. Mage does way more damage than shaman. DSM has now admitted a shaman is only the best option in this group for very few niche situations. He is now in agreement with everyone else that mage is a better option than shaman for the vast majority of situations from lvling 1-60 and most lvl 60 activities outside of Ixiblat and 1 or 2 other things that aren't done regularly and are not camps you would sit at for hours or spend any significant length of time doing. Thus would not be something you would build your entire group around. An argument could be made for a 3rd enchanter or a necromancer. But a shaman is only a better option for very few things that are not worthy of building an entire group around.


We all agree shaman does not belong in the best 4 man caster/priest group. Can we end this thread now?

Someone didn't read the data, as usual. The Mage's DPS isn't significant, and this is an Epic Mage. A normal Mage may be lower. For 4.3 seconds to matter on a camp with 20 mobs that respawn every 30 minutes, you would need to be at the camp for 11 hours to get one extra spawn cycle.

In an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric setup, Mage isn't necessary unless you really want CoTH. They are just redundant DPS. The Shaman will give superior utility and open up more camps.

A Mage could help the group level a bit faster before 60, but a group with 2x Enchanters is already going fast. As I said before, you could even swap an Enchanter or the Cleric for a Necro if you want FD. Your DPS will still be fine.

[Karanis]

18741

[PlsNoBan]

Deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection deflection

Yea that's what I thought. Unfortunately I'm still here to remind you and everyone else silently reading this thread of your contradiction and admission that shaman is only the best option for this group in VERY FEW niche situations. You admitted this. Mage/Necro/Enchanter are all better options in many many more situations. Everyone (including you by admission) knows this. Stop deflecting.

[Gloomlord]

Ah, okay, DSM.

I think you should return the favour, go into a group as DPS in Seb, especially one with two charms, and parse your DPS.

But you won't, will you? Because then you'd see how significant mage DPS will be over a shaman.

Cowardly filth...

[Karanis]

go into a group as DPS in Seb, especially one with two charms, and parse your DPS for an hour or more

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ah, okay, DSM.

I think you should return the favour, go into a group as DPS in Seb, especially one with two charms, and parse your DPS.

But you won't, will you? Because then you'd see how significant mage DPS will be over a shaman.

Cowardly filth...

The data keeps proving my point. You have yet to provide anything. Maybe you should stop being the coward and do this if you think it will prove your point.

[PlsNoBan]

The data says shaman is only the best choice for this group for a couple niche things. The data says mage/necro/enchanter are all better options for the vast majority of content. The data says you have contradicted yourself and admitted this fact already and are now trying to backpedal and go back to your original incorrect argument.

The post history is clear my friend. Everyone knows the truth. You have thoroughly and completely lost this argument. You can stop posting now.

https://i.imgur.com/BE1ynHl.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The data says shaman is only the best choice for this group for a couple niche things. The data says mage/necro/enchanter are all better options for the vast majority of content. The data says you have contradicted yourself and admitted this fact already and are now trying to backpedal and go back to your original incorrect argument.

The post history is clear my friend. Everyone knows the truth. You have thoroughly and completely lost this argument. You can stop posting now.

https://i.imgur.com/BE1ynHl.gif

The data shows Mage DPS as irrelevant in a four man group, even with Epic. I am not sure why you keep trying to read it differently.

[PlsNoBan]

The data shows Mage DPS as irrelevant in a four man group, even with Epic. I am not sure why you keep trying to read it differently.

You keep doing this weird bullshit where you equate DPS to time spent per kill and try to calculate how many extra spawns you get for that DPS. Here's a hint: It doesn't matter. You can make the difference between SK and Rogue sound small if you calculate it that way. Everyone is still taking rogue over SK for DPS. It's an extremely dumb argument like most things you have argued. Literally 5 more DPS is objectively better than an extra healer with nothing to heal. An extra slower when everything is already slowed. Whether you like it or not you're playing in a group with subpar players if 2 encs and a cleric needs your extra healing and utility. They don't. Realistically 2 encs and a cleric probably doesn't need a 4th but in this hypothetical if we're gonna force a 4th person then shaman isn't even close to the most optimal choice. This is EXTREMELY simple and obvious. The lengths you're going to try to justify the dumbest shit anyone has ever heard is a weird mixture of impressive and sad. You have openly admitted that other classes than shaman are better for most situations. You keep going back to Ixiblat cause it's one of the only things that is actually a semi understandable argument for your side. Arguing that a shaman's extra heals/utility is needed for KC/Seb/HS or most other content 1-60 and beyond is absolutely ridiculous.

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or seriously believe this shit. I lean towards trolling cause you mistakenly admitted you were wrong once already and have been trying to backpedal ever since. You are very very seriously mentally ill if you believe anyone is buying any of this though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You keep doing this weird bullshit where you equate DPS to time spent per kill and try to calculate how many extra spawns you get for that DPS. Here's a hint: It doesn't matter. You can make the difference between SK and Rogue sound small if you calculate it that way. Everyone is still taking rogue over SK for DPS. It's an extremely dumb argument like most things you have argued. Literally 5 more DPS is objectively better than an extra healer with nothing to heal. An extra slower when everything is already slowed. Whether you like it or not you're playing in a group with subpar players if 2 encs and a cleric needs your extra healing and utility. They don't. Realistically 2 encs and a cleric probably doesn't need a 4th but in this hypothetical if we're gonna force a 4th person then shaman isn't even close to the most optimal choice. This is EXTREMELY simple and obvious. The lengths you're going to try to justify the dumbest shit anyone has ever heard is a weird mixture of impressive and sad. You have openly admitted that other classes than shaman are better for most situations. You keep going back to Ixiblat cause it's one of the only things that is actually a semi understandable argument for your side. Arguing that a shaman's extra heals/utility is needed for KC/Seb/HS or most other content 1-60 and beyond is absolutely ridiculous.

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling or seriously believe this shit. I lean towards trolling cause you mistakenly admitted you were wrong once already and have been trying to backpedal ever since. You are very very seriously mentally ill if you believe anyone is buying any of this though.

You keep saying I mistakenly admitted something, but it's just nonsense. Nobody is arguing a Necromancer wouldn't be a good addition to a four man group due to FD. I really don't know why you think this has ever been argued against. Nobody has argued other classes can't contribute to this group either, such as needing Mage if you want CoTH. These aren't revelations, and you can see the post history. It's been said already multiple times, you are simply trying to do some silly gotcha that doesn't even work.

My argument has been the same since page 1: The DPS of the fourth member isn't relevant, which is why utility and safety is better. The data keeps showing this fact. Your strawmen that I said Shamans DPS is higher than a Mage (except via root/rotting), Warriors solo better than Enchanters at higher levels, I have some Shaman fetish, etc., are just that: strawmen. You haven't provided any data, and you have been trolling for 300 posts at least.

The only reason to bring DPS is to get more kills per session. As you keep claiming, the hypothetical group is good enough not to wipe, so it isn't like they need 4 less seconds on a kill to save some mana on healing. If you aren't getting more kills per session, the DPS is useless. Utility and safety on the other hand may save you from an unexpected train, group member DCing due to lag, etc. While these occurrences are unlikely in a skilled group, something is better than nothing. The DPS offers nothing once you hit the ideal breakpoint. Camp options are always nice, since it expands what you can do.

I am sorry, no data so far has supported your point that Mage would be superior, unless you need CoTH. A group with 2x Enchanters and a Cleric is leveling fast enough, it doesn't need the Mage's DPS due to the DPS breakpoints.

For maximum camp options, I would still go with Necro/Enchanter/Mage/Shaman with a level 49 pocket cleric. You hit the DPS breakpoints with this group, and the level 49 pocket cleric can provide CH and reses.

Necro/Enchanter/Mage/Shaman is the group OP picked as well, possibly minus the pocket cleric.

[PlsNoBan]

He's now admitted that mage is better at royals and necro is better at fungi king. He's basically just clinging on to shaman being helpful for ixiblat and maybe like WW dragons? He's backed himself into a very tiny corner with his own words at this point. Would ANYBODY base their entire group makeup for 1-60 and beyond around what class makes more sense for Ixiblat? Or would you take a mage/necro that makes more sense in the vast majority of cases? I played actively on blue for YEARS and I think I killed Ixiblat like twice.

This thread really should be over. I know it won't end. But DSM literally backed himself into a tiny corner and the floor has fallen out beneath him. He's dangling by a thread and is going to continue to argue from there I'm sure.

I said all of this before, you just aren't reading, as usual. You simply have this strange straw man that I am obsessed with Shamans.

Okay so we've established shaman has no place in this hypothetical best 4 man caster group outside of a niche mob or two. You keep bringing up Ixiblat which is one of very few situations where I think shaman might be helpful.

There ya have it boys and girls. If you want the best 4 man caster group for Ixiblat and maybe 1-2 other things put a shaman in there. For 1-60 and 95% of everything else at 60 pick something else.

End of thread.

Sorry your utility is redundant and less relevant than more DPS in this hypothetical group even if it doesn't gain you an additional named/PH spawn in your session. By your own admission shaman is only preferable for a few niche situations. I understand this causes you much distress. I'm sure you'll find a way to get over it eventually. Seems it may take some time though.


P.S. This shouldn't need to be said but we're dealing with an imbecile so. Nobody starting a fresh lvl 1 group (as OP did) is going to level a pocket cleric to 49 and log it in and out every 5 minutes to CH a pet. This is another fucking asinine absolutely absurd idea on top of a pile of other ones you've put forth in this thread.

[cd288]

Lmao I come back here after 48 hours and he’s still going after he accidentally admitted that three ench and cleric is the best 4 person option. DSM did you really have nothing better to do?

Let’s recap the most recent moving of the goalpost here when discussing mage vs shaman. Previously his argument was that he does more dps than a mage. The recent data shows that to be incorrect so now his argument shifts to “well I do less dps but that doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things”

This dude is unreal lmao. Every time he’s wrong he decides to change the argument from what it was before so that he can say he’s not wrong.

[PlsNoBan]

I bet when DSM is leading groups and is LF DPS and gets a tell from a rogue and a paladin he does the math in his head and decides that the rogues DPS won't get him an extra named/PH in the 4 hours he plans on playing and takes the paladin instead for extra heals cause safety is more important

JUST KIDDING NOT EVEN DSM IS DUMB ENOUGH TO DO THAT

.... I hope...

[Toxigen]

i cant believe we're headed to 250

go outside you spergs

[PlsNoBan]

i cant believe we're headed to 250

go outside you spergs

Who's to say I'm not posting from outside right now?

https://i.imgur.com/lAAxEhp.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lmao I come back here after 48 hours and he’s still going after he accidentally admitted that three ench and cleric is the best 4 person option. DSM did you really have nothing better to do?

Let’s recap the most recent moving of the goalpost here when discussing mage vs shaman. Previously his argument was that he does more dps than a mage. The recent data shows that to be incorrect so now his argument shifts to “well I do less dps but that doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things”

This dude is unreal lmao. Every time he’s wrong he decides to change the argument from what it was before so that he can say he’s not wrong.

Please show me where I did this. Your lack of reading is astounding.

I never claimed a Shaman deals more damage than a Mage, unless root/rotting.

The question has always been how much difference in DPS is a Shaman compared to a Mage, and if it matters. Clearly the answer is it doesn't matter in a four man group based on the data.


P.S. This shouldn't need to be said but we're dealing with an imbecile so. Nobody starting a fresh lvl 1 group (as OP did) is going to level a pocket cleric to 49 and log it in and out every 5 minutes to CH a pet. This is another fucking asinine absolutely absurd idea on top of a pile of other ones you've put forth in this thread.

So a fresh group is going to be so pro they don't need a Shaman, but so not pro they can't level a pocket cleric? You are contradicting yourself, yet again. OP never claimed he was a noob, forming a group with other noobs, with no gear what-so-ever.

[PlsNoBan]

I am very very dumb and do not understand even 1 extra dps is better than heals on targets that don't need heals and slows on targets that are already slowed

Wow I actually agree with DSM here

[PlsNoBan]

So a fresh group is going to be so pro they don't need a Shaman, but so not pro they can't level a pocket cleric?

Oh yeah you're totally right. It only takes like an hour to level a pocket cleric to 49. Everyone will definitely wanna do that so they can log it in and out constantly instead of just making a cleric one of the slots in the group instead of a redundant shaman. Sorry I don't know what I was thinking.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh yeah you're totally right. It only takes like an hour to level a pocket cleric to 49. Everyone will definitely wanna do that so they can log it in and out constantly instead of just making a cleric one of the slots in the group instead of a redundant shaman. Sorry I don't know what I was thinking.

Leveling a pocket cleric to 49 is easy. It's much easier than leveling from 50-60. I thought you were pro enough to know this? You keep claiming you are really good.

[PlsNoBan]

Holy fucking christ dude. This guy is unbelievable.

[Ripqozko]

lol @ pocket cleric, my man moved goal posts so far. At least everyone can see how DSM is now with this thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

lol @ pocket cleric, my man moved goal posts so far. At least everyone can see how DSM is now with this thread.

More nonsense. I am not sure where I moved the goal posts as you claim.

My position has always been the DPS of the fourth member is irrelevant.

OP never specified you can't bring a pocket cleric either.

Everything else is just strawmen created by posters who haven't brought evidence to back up their claims, troll, or do not read. This includes yourself. It's easy to go back and see my posts.

Unless you need CoTH, Shaman is objectively better. A Torpor Shaman is a really good way to reduce how much mana your Enchanters and Cleric are using. They Malo and Slow (so the Enchanters don't have to), Heal (so the Cleric doesn't always have to) and self-regenerate their own mana. Plus the buffs and heals help keep the party going. If you need a pet for tanking charm breaks, Shaman pet can tank just fine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY . They can DPS fine too if you are doing well with Epic DoT, Pox, Bane, JBB, etc.

But I agree if you do need CoTH, dropping the Shaman would probably be the right move, since Mage can take over the Malo duty.

This is what I said on the first page. It isn't like I have never said other classes can't contribute if the group wants them to.

None of this has changed. The data shows an Epic Mage can DPS better than I initially thought (thank you to the contributors of said data), but at the end of the day the DPS breakpoints make this irrelevant, since you are only saving a few seconds per kill.

It is completely fine if you want to take a Mage over a Shaman because the group is planning on farming a lot of Chardok Royals. But you aren't taking the Mage for the DPS at that point, you are doing it for the camp options via CoTH. It is the same reason you would pick Shaman over Mage if you wanted to do camps like WW Dragons and Ixiblat Fer.

If you want to do all the camps, Shaman/Necro/Enchanter/Mage gives you everything, and if you want a cleric it's easy to level one up to 49 when needed and keep it as a pocket cleric. You have four people who can level it while your group isn't together.

[Chortles Snortles]

https://i.imgur.com/LckUyX8.png

[PlsNoBan]

Wonder if DSM would agree you could just make a pocket shaman for ixiblat and ww dragons and keep the useless shaman out of the group that doesn't need it for anything else? Guessing no lol

The goal posts are in a different zip code

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wonder if DSM would agree you could just make a pocket shaman for ixiblat and ww dragons and keep the useless shaman out of the group that doesn't need it for anything else? Guessing no lol

The goal posts are in a different zip code

You are seriously suggesting a level 60 Torpor Shaman is just as easy to get as a level 49 cleric?

You only need to level the cleric to 39 for CH if you want the Necro to res instead with a Necro/Shaman/Enchanter/Mage combo.

A pocket CoTH bot only needs to be level 55, so that is also easier to make than a Torpor Shaman. Its better to primarily level the class that will help you the most as a level 60. Mage and Cleric don't need to be 60 for you to get what you need from them.

[PlsNoBan]

You are seriously suggesting a level 60 Torpor Shaman is just as easy to get as a level 49 cleric?

You only need to level the cleric to 39 for CH if you want the Necro to res instead with a Necro/Shaman/Enchanter/Mage combo.

A pocket CoTH bot only needs to be level 55, so that is also easier to make than a Torpor Shaman. Its better to primarily level the class that will help you the most as a level 60. Mage and Cleric don't need to be 60 for you to get what you need from them.

Oh yea what was I thinking that's an absurd idea :rolleyes:

Its better to primarily level the class that will help you the most as a level 60

I agree. Which is why I would suggest leveling something other than shaman which only "helps the most" for a couple niche things.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh yea what was I thinking that's an absurd idea :rolleyes:

We can agree there, it is an absurd idea. It's much easier to level a Cleric to 49 or a Mage to 55 if your group wants their functionality. Leveling all the way to 60 takes the longest, and the Shaman will benefit far more from being 60.

[PlsNoBan]

We can agree there, it is an absurd idea. It's much easier to level a Cleric to 49 or a Mage to 55 if your group wants their functionality. Leveling all the way to 60 takes the longest, and the Shaman will benefit far more from being 60.

Yea leveling a 49 pocket cleric and logging it in and out every few minutes makes way more sense than just putting a cleric in the group and skipping the redundant shaman. You're making so much sense right now it's uncanny.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea leveling a 49 pocket cleric and logging it in and out every few minutes makes way more sense than just putting a cleric in the group and skipping the redundant shaman. You're making so much sense right now it's uncanny.

You can heal with the Necro/Shaman inbetween pulls. You use the Cleric when waiting for respawns. If your group is as pro as you keep claiming, this isn't a big deal.

[PlsNoBan]

You can heal with the Necro/Shaman inbetween pulls. You use the Cleric when waiting for respawns. If your group is as pro as you keep claiming, this isn't a big deal.

Yeah this makes a lot of sense and isn't extremely stupid at all

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah this makes a lot of sense and isn't extremely stupid at all

It makes much more sense than claiming its easy to make a pocket Torpor Shaman. That was your idea:)

[PlsNoBan]

It makes much more sense than claiming its easy to make a pocket Torpor Shaman. That was your idea:)

Yeah I totally meant that seriously and not sarcastically at all. You make some very good points DSM. I'm honestly shocked that anyone would think you're unintelligent. Your wits are legendary.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah I totally meant that seriously and not sarcastically at all. You make some very good points DSM. I'm honestly shocked that anyone would think you're unintelligent. Your wits are legendary.

Don't blame me because your attempt at sarcasm was bad and it is now backfiring on you.

[PlsNoBan]

Don't blame me because your attempt at sarcasm was bad and it is now backfiring on you.

Oh yeah it totally backfired. I'm absolutely devastated at this catastrophic backfire. You outsmarted me again!

[Gloomlord]

DSM, just admit you're wrong.

Is your ego that fragile you can't concede if your life depended on it?

[slard271]

Poll: Which happens first?
a) End of thread; consensus is unanimously built that redundant Shaman over Mage for fantasy land fast killing group scenario is lolz.
b) Heat death of universe.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM, just admit you're wrong.

Is your ego that fragile you can't concede if your life depended on it?

I will happily admit I am wrong if you can prove it. I have done so before.

I am not going to admit I am wrong just because you want me to. Trolling, memes, and insults is not how you win a debate.

So far you haven't provided any data or math to back up your points, but you keep whining about the data and math presented. If you think it isn't correct, you can provide your own data and math at any time.

[PlsNoBan]

This fuckin clown lol. Can't go 3 posts without talking about data and math. All the data and math points to mage doing more damage than shaman by varying degrees. His entire argument is "Yeah but I play in bad groups that need extra heals for all the mistakes they make constantly so shaman is better" which can't really be quantified by raw data easily. Yet he keeps saying look at the data or asking other people to provide data to prove him wrong lol. All the data he's ever posted says mages are better DPS. He counters with "safety" being more important than the extra damage but has no data to back this up.

I don't have the ability to accurately describe in words how stupid this is

[Gloomlord]

I know we've been over this before, but...

Isn't the onus on you to prove that shaman does more DPS? I'd say the overwhelming majority of players in this game think mage does more DPS, but you're saying otherwise.

Recent data has shown that mages do a significant amount more for a fraction of the effort. And since it's a meleeing pet, that DPS is also reliable...unlike nuking and dotting.

You're saying it's "redundant", but isn't the utility a shaman brings also redundant? If it's all subjective what people prefer, wouldn't most pick the mage?

Honestly, I'd even go for a druid over shaman if the argument is for utility and safety. At least druids can port and evac this group if things go south, and even provide a serviceable DPS in the form of animal charming if it's possible.

That's how pointless shaman is in this hypothetical group.

[Gloomlord]

This fuckin clown lol. Can't go 3 posts without talking about data and math. All the data and math points to mage doing more damage than shaman by varying degrees. His entire argument is "Yeah but I play in bad groups that need extra heals for all the mistakes they make constantly so shaman is better" which can't really be quantified by raw data easily. Yet he keeps saying look at the data or asking other people to provide data to prove him wrong lol

I don't have the ability to accurately describe in words how stupid this is

Yeah, he's a self-righteous hypocrite.

You can't proclaim one moment that variables make data irrelevant, and then ask for data when people say that, through experience, one class would bring more to the table.

He wouldn't "happily admit he's wrong". The fact that he even says "happily" implies he's disingenuous. Even humble people wouldn't proclaim they're "happy" when they have to admit they've made a mistake.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I know we've been over this before, but...

Isn't the onus on you to prove that shaman does more DPS? I'd say the overwhelming majority of players in this game think mage does more DPS, but you're saying otherwise.

Recent data has shown that mages do a significant amount more for a fraction of the effort. And since it's a meleeing pet, that DPS is also reliable...unlike nuking and dotting.

You're saying it's "redundant", but isn't the utility a shaman brings also redundant? If it's all subjective what people prefer, wouldn't most pick the mage?

Honestly, I'd even go for a druid over shaman if the argument is for utility and safety. At least druids can port and evac this group if things go south, and even provide a serviceable DPS in the form of animal charming if it's possible.

That's how pointless shaman is in this hypothetical group.

Oh we have been over burden of proof already. You simply don't understand it.

Both sides presented DPS numbers to try and discover the difference in DPS between the two classes. The point was never to prove which class does more DPS. The point was to find the difference, and see if the difference mattered. The evidence shows it doesn't.

You are making a new claim, that my DPS numbers are invalid, because they will be considerably different in a group. That is your claim, and YOU need to prove it.

What you are doing is asking me to prove a negative by asking me to show evdence that my previous evidence is valid.

[PlsNoBan]

Oh we have been over burden of proof already. You simply don't understand it.

Both sides presented DPS numbers to try and discover the difference in DPS between the two classes.

You are making a new claim, that my DPS numbers are invalid, because they will be considerably different in a group. That is your claim, and YOU need to prove it.

What you are doing is asking me to prove a negative by asking me to show evdence that my previous evidence is valid.

You have conceded that mages do more damage than shamans. All the data in this entire thread agrees with this. You have expressed your opinion that redundant utility and healing from shaman is more important than the mages extra damage. You have not provided data to prove this.

Please provide data showing how redundant utility/heals is better than mages doing more damage. Which all the data in this thread backs up. Until then we can assume you tend to play in bad groups that need extra heals beyond a cleric and slows beyond an enchanter. I've been in many many groups where this was not the case.

[Gloomlord]

You provided a parse of solo DPS. This parse can be considered irrelevant in a group with two charm pets. End of story.

One side provided honest data, you provided dishonest data.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You have conceded that mages do more damage than shamans. All the data in this entire thread agrees with this. You have expressed your opinion that redundant utility and healing from shaman is more important than the mages extra damage. You have not provided data to prove this.

Please provide data showing how redundant utility/heals is better than mages doing more damage. Which all the data in this thread backs up. Until then we can assume you tend to play in bad groups that need extra heals beyond a cleric and slows beyond an enchanter. I've been in many many groups where this was not the case.

I didn't concede that Mages deal more damage, because I never made the claim that Shamans normally deal more damage lol. That idea is a strawman you created. Shamans can match DPS when root/rotting, but you don't want to discuss that aspect of the game because it hurts your position.

I have already shown that the DPS a Mage brings is irrelevant due to the DPS breakpoints and respawn timers here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3503633&postcount=2399

This shows the Mage's DPS isn't helping the group at all. Having a Shaman gives you a broader toolkit than a Mage. That is an easy fact you can figure out yourself by looking at the wiki page for Shaman spells and Mage spells.

Having a broader toolkit offers more than DPS that isn't doing anything due to the DPS breakpoints and respawn timers.

You provided a parse of solo DPS. This parse can be considered irrelevant in a group with two charm pets. End of story.

One side provided honest data, you provided dishonest data.

This is a claim that needs to be proven by you. Just saying my data is irrelevant isn't a valid argument. When two sides present data to strengthen their claims in a discussion, you don't get to throw out the other side's data by simply claiming their data isn't valid. If you think the other side's data is invalid, that is a new claim that must be proven. Otherwise evidence would never be valid because you could just keep claiming it is invalid.

[Gloomlord]

But it is irrelevant when you think a solo parse is applicable to group DPS...?

You've already lost the argument, don't you see that?

[cd288]

Remember when we’re talking about a group and DSM starts talking about how shamans are better dps while solo root rotting? Lmao

[Crede]

Why are you guys so obsessed in getting him to admit he’s wrong? Once he picks an opinion, he will never change that. Maybe little facts here and there, like underestimating mage epic dps, but he has never changed an opinion about a debate that he started.

The facts are simple. Mages can put out high amounts of group dps barely doing any actions. Shamans have to wait to 60, and go apeshit clicking buttons to even remotely come close. No shaman is going off on the side root rotting with epic in a fast pace killing group unless you’re trying to win this thread.

Nobody in their right mind is inviting a shaman for a group dps role over a mage if minimum utility is met.

More dps is always good, even if the seconds saved per kill starts to lessen per kill.

Wasted utility is always bad, unless your group sucks.

There’s no reason to continue this debate.

[cd288]

Oh yea what was I thinking that's an absurd idea :rolleyes:



I agree. Which is why I would suggest leveling something other than shaman which only "helps the most" for a couple niche things.

Lol he got talked into a corner without realizing it yet again

[cd288]

Please show me where I did this. Your lack of reading is astounding.

I never claimed a Shaman deals more damage than a Mage, unless root/rotting.

The question has always been how much difference in DPS is a Shaman compared to a Mage, and if it matters. Clearly the answer is it doesn't matter in a four man group based on the data.



So a fresh group is going to be so pro they don't need a Shaman, but so not pro they can't level a pocket cleric? You are contradicting yourself, yet again. OP never claimed he was a noob, forming a group with other noobs, with no gear what-so-ever.

Dude this is so fucking funny I’m loving this. Dude sits around demanding more and more data, someone goes and does a parse in KC and proves that mages are better dps than shamans, and then this dude decides to change the argument to “well it’s just irrelevant for the group anyway”

Yeah no shit man the 4th person in a two enchanter and cleric group is kind of a pointless addition no one disagrees with that. But in this scenario we are forced to choose a fourth person and therefore the only thing that makes sense is more dps (which you agreed on Friday the best group would be three enchanters and a cleric).

Honestly I’ve never laughed harder at a thread on here before. It’s so satisfying watching you act all sanctimonious about data and then Allyshia proves you wrong with data and your response is that it’s irrelevant for the group anyway. Seriously, so funny. This is amazing watching you get destroyed after you made such a big deal out of this for like 900 posts lmaoooooooo

[Gloomlord]

Why are you guys so obsessed in getting him to admit he’s wrong? Once he picks an opinion, he will never change that. Maybe little facts here and there, like underestimating mage epic dps, but he has never changed an opinion about a debate that he started.

The facts are simple. Mages can put out high amounts of group dps barely doing any actions. Shamans have to wait to 60, and go apeshit clicking buttons to even remotely come close. No shaman is going off on the side root rotting with epic in a fast pace killing group unless you’re trying to win this thread.

Nobody in their right mind is inviting a shaman for a group dps role over a mage if minimum utility is met.

More dps is always good, even if the seconds saved per kill starts to lessen per kill.

Wasted utility is always bad, unless your group sucks.

There’s no reason to continue this debate.

I guess we're obsessed because we know he'll have the gall to think he's won after we tire of him and leave.

Perhaps a futile gesture, I admit, but I think this might be a microcosm about how you should try to prevent a person holding an irrational belief in society.

[PlsNoBan]

I have already shown that the DPS a Mage brings is irrelevant due to the DPS breakpoints and respawn timers here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3503633&postcount=2399

1: This proves nothing other than 1 data set says mage DPS will kill mobs x amount faster and x is not large enough to gain y more spawns in z amount of time at said camp. This does not prove irrelevance. Killing things faster is relevant even if it means you get 0 extra PH or named. I assume you would take a rogue over a paladin for a DPS spot in your group even if no extra named/PH were gained right? Why is that?

2: You have yet to provide any data whatsoever or even provide a sound argument for why a shamans redundant heals and utility is beneficial to the group in any meaningful way outside of very few niche camps/mobs that you mention. You cannot heal a full HP target. Not to mention your heal slows the target which is detrimental to the main source of your groups damage (the charm pets). Any decent cleric is not going to run out of mana ever healing in a group with 2 good enchanters. There are already 2 people that can slow almost as good as you. 2 other players with as good or better CC. A mage provides similar malo. What does shaman bring that this group needs besides mediocre dps and slightly better slow/malo that is fairly negligible? The mage pet is tankier than yours. The mage pet provides respectable DPS with no mana requirement. There is literally nothing shaman brings that matters or is better than a mage/necro/enchanter for the 4th slot in ALMOST every situation. Again you have provided 0 data to support your claims here. The only data you've ever brought is strictly related to DPS between shaman and mage. All the data points to mage and you stubbornly are still trying to prove why shaman is better based solely on your preference for unnecessary extra "safety"

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why are you guys so obsessed in getting him to admit he’s wrong? Once he picks an opinion, he will never change that. Maybe little facts here and there, like underestimating mage epic dps, but he has never changed an opinion about a debate that he started.

The facts are simple. Mages can put out high amounts of group dps barely doing any actions. Shamans have to wait to 60, and go apeshit clicking buttons to even remotely come close. No shaman is going off on the side root rotting with epic in a fast pace killing group unless you’re trying to win this thread.

Nobody in their right mind is inviting a shaman for a group dps role over a mage if minimum utility is met.

More dps is always good, even if the seconds saved per kill starts to lessen per kill.

Wasted utility is always bad, unless your group sucks.

There’s no reason to continue this debate.

I agree with you they are obsessed with getting me to admit I am wrong for no reason. It is strange.

You are incorrect that I never change my opinion. That is just another straw man.

This idea DPS is always better is incorrect, because you are restricted by respawn timers. If you kill Fungi King 9 seconds faster, you are still waiting 27 minutes for the next respawn. You would need to kill Fungi King 200 more times in a single session to get another spawn. That is a continuous session of 100 hours. The only two reasons you bring DPS is for safety (faster kills means less damage taken), and getting more kills per hour. If the assumption is your group never wipes, then the added safety of killing the mob faster is irrelevant. At that point you are simply left with DPS to increase kills per hour. If you aren't increasing kills per hour either, DPS offers nothing. A Shaman's broader toolkit gives you more options for camps, and grants you greater safety than simply taking a tiny bit less damage due to a 4 second faster kill.

If you are killing 20 mobs per 30 minutes with a Shaman, and 20 mobs per 30 minutes with a Mage, the Shaman simply offers the group more, even if you choose not to use it.

The rest of the long posts by other users are just more nonsense and not worth replying to.

[Gloomlord]

I agree with you they are obsessed with getting me to admit I am wrong for no reason. It is strange.

This person wasn't defending you, halfwit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This person wasn't defending you, halfwit.

Crede saying you are obsessed with proving me wrong isn't beneficial to your side, silly. It is true, and I agree with him on that point.

[Gloomlord]

Him saying you are obsessed with proving me wrong isn't beneficial to your side, silly.

Except he just concurred with us about mage and shaman.

He's only saying you're a lost cause not worth arguing with. You took his comment as the perfect opportunity to "stick it to the trolls", without really looking at what his post implies.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Except he just concurred with us about mage and shaman.

He's only saying you're a lost cause not worth arguing with. You took his comment as the perfect opportunity to "stick it to the trolls", without really looking at what his post implies.

I read his post. You don't need to put words in his mouth.

Him disagreeing with me doesn't mean he is correct. Just like you disagreeing with me doesn't mean you are correct. We have gone over this before. I know you feel comfortable with safety in numbers, but that is irrelevant to the topic at hand.

He was correct you are obsessed with proving me wrong. It is why you have clearly lost objectivity in the discussion. You don't care what the best group composition is, you just want to prove me wrong, and will do anything to achieve this goal.

[Gloomlord]

Then stop deceiving yourself.

Shaman solo DPS capabilities is not a case for its group DPS capabilities. You have lost objectivity in your pathetic desire to avert the truth: shamans are mediocre at DPS.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Then stop deceiving yourself.

Shaman solo DPS capabilities is not a case for its group DPS capabilities. You have lost objectivity in your pathetic desire to avert the truth: shamans are mediocre at DPS.

The only person deceiving themselves is you. You just keep saying my data is invalid, but you haven't provided one shred of evidence to back this up. Just saying something doesn't make it true.

You are convincing yourself this is the case by repeating it over and over again, rather than actually proving it with data. It is a very obvious self deception technique on your part.

It is part of your quest to prove me wrong at any cost.

The discussion is about a four man group. As long as the group's DPS hits the correct breakpoint, it doesn't matter which class does more DPS. If you are killing 20 mobs every 30 minutes with group composition A, and you are killing 20 mobs every 30 minutes with group composition B, DPS is no longer helping.

There are only two things that matter in Everquest when you boil it down: Kills per hour and number of camps your group can do. To maximize your gameplay, you want to increase both kills per hour and number of camps you can do. If a Mage offers you 50 kills per hour and 30 camp options, and a Shaman offers you 50 kills per hour and 35 camp options, the Shaman is better.

[Chortles Snortles]

https://i.imgur.com/LckUyX8.png

[PlsNoBan]

1: This proves nothing other than 1 data set says mage DPS will kill mobs x amount faster and x is not large enough to gain y more spawns in z amount of time at said camp. This does not prove irrelevance. Killing things faster is relevant even if it means you get 0 extra PH or named. I assume you would take a rogue over a paladin for a DPS spot in your group even if no extra named/PH were gained right? Why is that?

2: You have yet to provide any data whatsoever or even provide a sound argument for why a shamans redundant heals and utility is beneficial to the group in any meaningful way outside of very few niche camps/mobs that you mention. You cannot heal a full HP target. Not to mention your heal slows the target which is detrimental to the main source of your groups damage (the charm pets). Any decent cleric is not going to run out of mana ever healing in a group with 2 good enchanters. There are already 2 people that can slow almost as good as you. 2 other players with as good or better CC. A mage provides similar malo. What does shaman bring that this group needs besides mediocre dps and slightly better slow/malo that is fairly negligible? The mage pet is tankier than yours. The mage pet provides respectable DPS with no mana requirement. There is literally nothing shaman brings that matters or is better than a mage/necro/enchanter for the 4th slot in ALMOST every situation. Again you have provided 0 data to support your claims here. The only data you've ever brought is strictly related to DPS between shaman and mage. All the data points to mage and you stubbornly are still trying to prove why shaman is better based solely on your preference for unnecessary extra "safety"

DSM really out here trying to say his ideal group is calculating minimum DPS required to keep a PH cleared then filling the rest of the group with redundant healers just to justify his nonsensical argument

Hilarious

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated almost 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

For reference, Fungi King has around 18000 HP. That means a group is saving roughly 9 seconds from the extra 50 DPS. For this to give you an extra spawn, you would need to kill Fungi King around 200 times in a row, or camp him for 100 hours straight.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[Gloomlord]

You know what DSM is doing now?

This is something called "Madness Mantra".

"Just ignore the trolls!" -- says DSM to the non-existent silent watchers.

[PlsNoBan]

Please ignore DSM in this thread. He is just trolling. He has accumulated over 800 posts that are literally just bad data and bad arguments. He shouldn't since everyone knows the things he's saying are wrong and stupid, but he seems to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Shaman doesn't belong in the best overall 4 person caster/priest group for a variety of very obvious reasons that require no data or calculations

Enchanters solo better than warriors

[Gloomlord]

The man has lost the game, but now he retreats within a psychosis where there are still people listening to his "wisdom".

Pathetic.

[cd288]

Yet again: DSM dies on the hill that shamans do better dps than mages. When proved wrong about dps, he changes the argument to “well the extra dps isn’t that beneficial so shaman is the better choice”

This dude changes arguments at the speed of light lol

The only positive to this is he’s so obsessed with the fact that he keeps being proven wrong in this thread that he spends all his time in here; so at least he’s inflicting his insufferable presence on us in other threads

[Kich867]

Yet again: DSM dies on the hill that shamans do better dps than mages. When proved wrong about dps, he changes the argument to “well the extra dps isn’t that beneficial so shaman is the better choice”

This dude changes arguments at the speed of light lol

The only positive to this is he’s so obsessed with the fact that he keeps being proven wrong in this thread that he spends all his time in here; so at least he’s inflicting his insufferable presence on us in other threads

Not to be too pedantic but, he never actually said that, that was people being nerds or whatever.

His original statement was:

Shaman pet + Shaman DoTs deal good damage too, so it isn't like a Mage is putting out way more DPS. They are still mostly a single target DPS toon, like Shamans.

Again, Shaman pet is pretty tanky. 2400 HP (with FoS) and Torpor is no slouch when it comes to off-tanking.

But as I said before, level range matters. I agree Mage is better before 60.

He stated that mages deal better dps and that they're better pre-60. He pointed out that the mage dps is basically useless in the group anyways and his perspective was that shamans offer utility and, if didn't need to, could still provide some dps. This is all literally on the first page, people just lost their shit because it's DSM and they freak out apparently when this guy talks.

[Gloomlord]

But it's worthless, redundant utility. We've explained this time and time again, and he refuses to listen.

10+ people all "freak out" and unite against this man, and you don't think that's alarming?

Is your self-righteousness really necessary here? Come on...

[Ripqozko]

Not to be too pedantic but, he never actually said that, that was people being nerds or whatever.

His original statement was:



He stated that mages deal better dps and that they're better pre-60. He pointed out that the mage dps is basically useless in the group anyways and his perspective was that shamans offer utility and, if didn't need to, could still provide some dps. This is all literally on the first page, people just lost their shit because it's DSM and they freak out apparently when this guy talks.

found the VQ batphoned guildy

[cd288]

Not to be too pedantic but, he never actually said that, that was people being nerds or whatever.

His original statement was:



He stated that mages deal better dps and that they're better pre-60. He pointed out that the mage dps is basically useless in the group anyways and his perspective was that shamans offer utility and, if didn't need to, could still provide some dps. This is all literally on the first page, people just lost their shit because it's DSM and they freak out apparently when this guy talks.

Nah man go read through all his posts if you ever have the time. He has literally made the argument of shamans being better dps than mages expressly

At one point he was also tricked into saying that three enchanters and a cleric is the best option and then backtracked when he realized what happened lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nah man go read through all his posts if you ever have the time. He has literally made the argument of shamans being better dps than mages expressly

At one point he was also tricked into saying that three enchanters and a cleric is the best option and then backtracked when he realized what happened lol

I didn't. Kich is spot on. You just can't read and make stuff up lol.

Not to be too pedantic but, he never actually said that, that was people being nerds or whatever.

His original statement was:



He stated that mages deal better dps and that they're better pre-60. He pointed out that the mage dps is basically useless in the group anyways and his perspective was that shamans offer utility and, if didn't need to, could still provide some dps. This is all literally on the first page, people just lost their shit because it's DSM and they freak out apparently when this guy talks.

Great post, yet again.

[Kich867]

But it's worthless, redundant utility. We've explained this time and time again, and he refuses to listen.

10+ people all "freak out" and unite against this man, and you don't think that's alarming?

Is your self-righteousness really necessary here? Come on...

I think it is alarming that 10+ people are making an effort to get some stranger who, from what I understand, you only interact with over these forums, to admit they're wrong about a fictitious scenario of min-max geared level 60's or something, that, if you go and look, you could've all avoided from the get-go by ignoring them.

You don't actually have to provoke this person and drag this out, it's real easy to be like "I disagree" and move on.

Why do you care this much about this dudes opinion?

[Ripqozko]

I think it is alarming that 10+ people are making an effort to get some stranger who, from what I understand, you only interact with over these forums, to admit they're wrong about a fictitious scenario of min-max geared level 60's or something, that, if you go and look, you could've all avoided from the get-go by ignoring them.

You don't actually have to provoke this person and drag this out, it's real easy to be like "I disagree" and move on.

Why do you care this much about this dudes opinion?

Welcome VQ guildy, do you get dkp for this?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Welcome VQ guildy, do you get dkp for this?

Mega cringe. This is just sad.

[PlsNoBan]

I think it is alarming that 10+ people are making an effort to get some stranger who, from what I understand, you only interact with over these forums, to admit they're wrong about a fictitious scenario of min-max geared level 60's or something, that, if you go and look, you could've all avoided from the get-go by ignoring them.

You don't actually have to provoke this person and drag this out, it's real easy to be like "I disagree" and move on.

Why do you care this much about this dudes opinion?

Because he isn't stating it as opinion. He's stating an opinion as fact when the actual facts are in direct opposition. If he just came here and said "I know mage is prolly the better choice from a min/max perspective but I personally prefer having an extra healer just in case someone sucks or messes up" then this thread would've been over in like 2-5 pages. He's perfectly entitled to that opinion. I personally have a very hard time letting it go when someone is so obviously blatantly wrong about something and they act like such a gigantic stubborn piece of shit about how right they are. He might legitimately have some mental issues IRL in which case I might feel a little bad for ragging on him so much. In my defense I have no way to actually know that short of him telling us. So until that point I'm just treating him as the stubborn illogical piece of shit that he's broadcasting himself as.

In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter but people being this blatantly stupid and obtuse gets under my skin. I admit to having a hard time letting it go. Gloomlord made a good point a couple pages ago:

Perhaps a futile gesture, I admit, but I think this might be a microcosm about how you should try to prevent a person holding an irrational belief in society.

[PlsNoBan]

Welcome VQ guildy, do you get dkp for this?

https://i.imgur.com/yS8PFDm.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Because he isn't stating it as opinion. He's stating an opinion as fact when the actual facts are in direct opposition. If he just came here and said "I know mage is prolly the better choice from a min/max perspective but I personally prefer having an extra healer just in case someone sucks or messes up" then this thread would've been over in like 2-5 pages. He's perfectly entitled to that opinion. I personally have a very hard time letting it go when someone is so obviously blatantly wrong about something and they act like such a gigantic stubborn piece of shit about how right they are. He might legitimately have some mental issues IRL in which case I might feel a little bad for ragging on him so much. In my defense I have no way to actually know that short of him telling us. So until that point I'm just treating him as the stubborn illogical piece of shit that he's broadcasting himself as.

In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter but people being this blatantly stupid and obtuse gets under my skin. I admit to having a hard time letting it go. Gloomlord made a good point a couple pages ago:

Mega Yikes. You should look in a mirror before looking at others. You haven't provided any evidence, yet you claim that your opinion is fact. How arrogant.

[Gloomlord]

It's over, DSM! We have the moral and intellectual high ground!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's over, DSM! We have the moral and intellectual high ground!

No, you have neither. You and PlsNoBan have admitted to trolling and rage posting. You also haven't provided one shred of evidence. You just have 100+ posts of insults and nonsense, the majority of your entire history. Same with PlsNoBan, hes working his way to 500 troll posts.

[Gloomlord]

I didn't admit to trolling. What...?

I admitted to being angry with you, and then I admitted that this doesn't make me less right, or you less pathetic.

Evidence was provided to you, and it saw mage better than shaman at DPS in group. You rebutted it was "irrelevant" -- that shaman utility would overtake it.

How many times are we going to go around this circle?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I didn't admit to trolling. What...?

I admitted to being angry with you, and then I admitted that this doesn't make me less right, or you less pathetic.

Evidence was provided to you, and it saw mage better than shaman at DPS in group. You rebutted it was "irrelevant" -- that shaman utility would overtake it.

How many times are we going to go around this circle?

You have. Rage posting is the same as trolling. You aren't doing it to have a real conversation. You just want to get back at me because you are angry for no reason.

The data shows Mage DPS is irrelevant. I am not going to save 9 seconds killing Fungi king on the off chance I stay at the camp for 100 hours. At a camp with 20 mobs, you would need to play 11 hours to see one extra spawn cycle if you save 4 seconds.

What other benefits do you think you are getting from DPS?

[Gloomlord]

Wait...

So you're saying that, if someone is angry, they're wrong?

Am I hearing this right?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wait...

So you're saying that, if someone is angry, they're wrong?

Am I hearing this right?

You need to learn how to read. I didn't say that at all lol.

I said you are rage posting to get back at me (trolling).

I am not sure where you thought I said you were correct. So far you are incorrect. I am not saying you are incorrect because you are angry. You are simply incorrect, and are rage posting because you don't like being told you are incorrect.

[Gloomlord]

That's not trolling, you idiot!

That's ad hominem, and you know it.

[PlsNoBan]

Mega Yikes. You should look in a mirror before looking at others. You haven't provided any evidence, yet you claim that your opinion is fact. How arrogant.

You have not provided evidence for redundant shaman heals/utility being better than higher mage DPS. All the data posted thus has been strictly DPS comparisons between shaman and mage and thus far points to mage doing more damage. Literally every shred of evidence you have posted points to the opposite of your claim. If your claim is shaman is better cause of redundant heals and utility it's up to you to prove it and you have not done so. You have openly admitted that shaman is only preferable in this group for a couple of niche fights. Whether you like it or not you contradicted yourself and accidentally admitted that shaman is not the best option overall for this group.

Implying that increased DPS only matters if its enough DPS to gain an extra PH spawn is astoundingly stupid. I suggest giving up on that argument.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's not trolling, you idiot!

That's ad hominem, and you know it.

I guess we're obsessed because we know he'll have the gall to think he's won after we tire of him and leave.

Perhaps a futile gesture, I admit, but I think this might be a microcosm about how you should try to prevent a person holding an irrational belief in society.

By your own admission, you are rage posting because you think it will somehow get me to stop posting, so you can be right. That is trolling.

If you want me to stop posting, prove your point with evidence, not trolling.

[PlsNoBan]

By your own admission, you are rage posting because you think it will somehow get me to stop posting, so you can be right. That is trolling.

If you want me to stop posting, prove your point with evidence, not trolling.

You have posted plenty of evidence to prove our point. All the evidence in this thread says mage > shaman. Your opinion and your opinion only about utility/safety being more important is the only argument for shaman that you have. You've provided no evidence to back this up.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Implying that increased DPS only matters if its enough DPS to gain an extra PH spawn is astoundingly stupid. I suggest giving up on that argument.

Please explain the other benefits of DPS.

[Gloomlord]

We want you to stop posting because you're wrong.

"Rage Posting"? Ad hominem. Do I need to say more?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We want you to stop posting because you're wrong.

"Rage Posting"? Ad hominem. Do I need to say more?

That is not an argument. Saying "you are wrong" without evidence is meaningless. I can do the same to you. But I do have evidence, and you don't.

You just keep trolling by claiming I am wrong because you have nothing else.

[PlsNoBan]

Please explain the other benefits of DPS.

Are you really suggesting you place 0 value on DPS that isn't enough to gain an extra spawn? You're taking the paladin over the rogue when you already have heals and a tank? Just so you have redundant paladin heals? The rogue isn't getting you another PH why bother?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Are you really suggesting you place 0 value on DPS that isn't enough to gain an extra spawn? You're taking the paladin over the rogue when you already have heals and a tank? Just so you have redundant paladin heals? The rogue isn't getting you another PH why bother?

You didn't answer the question. What do you think you are gaining? If you kill 20 mobs in 30 minutes with a Shaman, and 20 mobs in 30 minutes with the Mage, you are in the exact same position.

[PlsNoBan]

You didn't answer the question. What do you think you are gaining? If you kill 20 mobs in 30 minutes with a Shaman, and 20 mobs in 30 minutes with the Mage, you are in the exact same position.

1: Depending on the camp. There are often more mobs that can be pulled for additional buffer xp (if needed) or just extra random coin/loot and to just keep playing the game and killing stuff.

2: If there aren't enough spawns to keep you busy. Higher DPS allows you to kill through your available mobs quicker then everyone gets a longer AFK break til respawns start happening.

Literally your entire argument banks on groups sucking and needing your extra heals to prevent wipes. What is to be gained by a shaman casting torpor on full HP players? Or on charm pets and slowing their attack speed when a cleric can just CH them? There is no other reason to bring a shaman in this group comp over mage/necro/another enchanter. DPS doesn't become irrelevant just because its not enough to get more PH's. It takes an insane amount of additional DPS to make that happen with how long the respawns are in this game. That's a dishonest argument at absolute best.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

1: Depending on the camp. There are often more mobs that can be pulled for additional buffer xp (if needed) or just extra random coin/loot and to just keep playing the game and killing stuff.

2: If there aren't enough spawns to keep you busy. Higher DPS allows you to kill through your available mobs quicker then everyone gets a longer AFK break til respawns start happening.

Literally your entire argument banks on groups sucking and needing your extra heals to prevent wipes. What is to be gained by a shaman casting torpor on full HP players? Or on charm pets and slowing their attack speed when a cleric can just CH them? There is no other reason to bring a shaman in this group comp over mage/necro/another enchanter. DPS doesn't become irrelevant just because its not enough to get more PH's. It takes an insane amount of additional DPS to make that happen with how long the respawns are in this game. That's a dishonest argument at absolute best.

1. Saving 4 seconds per kill still won't matter here. Most of the time wasted at that point is pull time or travel time.

2. You are seriously suggesting saving 9 seconds at a camp like Fungi King will make a difference to people who want to AFK between spawns? You must really know how to maximize every second of your life.

When DPS is giving you nothing, having more options is better, even if you think you won't use it. Something is better than nothing.

DPS is irrelevant once you can't get more kills per hour within your gaming session. Respawn timers are the bottleneck. You would be correct that DPS would help more if mobs respawned every minute, or you could trigger the spawns consistently. Platehouse is the only example I can think of, but there you want a Shaman to Malo/Slow the last cycle of mobs, they hit hard and are pretty resistant. They also have enough HP to be fully DoTed.

PS: You do get more kills per hour by increasing DPS. On a mob with 8000 HP, going from 100 to 200 DPS saves 40 seconds per kill. If you kill 20 mobs in 30 minutes, that is saving 1600 seconds per hour. You are getting extra respawn cycles when saving almost 30 minutes per hour. But saving 4 seconds per kill means you are getting an extra cycle ten times slower.

[PlsNoBan]

1. Saving 4 seconds per kill still won't matter here.

It doesn't matter a ton. It matters more than casting torpor on full hp players and slowing charm pets with your heals.

Something > Nothing

Simple math

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It doesn't matter a ton. It matters more than casting torpor on full hp players and slowing charm pets with your heals.

Something > Nothing

Simple math

If you kill 20 mobs in 30 minutes with a Shaman, and 20 mobs in 30 minutes with a Mage, the difference is indeed nothing.

Shaman utility and camp options > nothing.

[PlsNoBan]

If you kill 20 mobs in 30 minutes with a Shaman, and 20 mobs in 30 minutes with a Mage, the difference is indeed nothing.

Shaman utility and camp options > nothing.

.... your utility is redundant in this group. The "camp options" you keep droning on about is basically just Ixiblat. Once again the question is "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" NOT "Best 4 person all caster/priest group for Ixiblat". The group already has slow. The group already has malo. The group already has root and other better forms of CC. The group already has tankier pets that do more damage. The group has more heals than it needs. You bring nothing but mediocre DPS which is why you spent 700+ posts with a bunch of napkin math and shitty data trying to prove how much DPS shamans can do. Cause deep down you know that's all you really bring to this group. Unfortunately for you the data kept proving mage was better at it every time you did the math. Now you're arguing the opposite and saying DPS isn't important cause it doesn't get you additional PH/named so you can justify saying shaman redundant bullshit is better somehow.

Please know what I'm about to say I mean with 100% sincerity and honesty and no intention of trolling. You are either the biggest troll I have ever encountered on the internet or one of the stupidest people I've ever conversed with. I'm still not sure which. It's really impressive how bad the arguments you try to make are and how dishonestly you argue. Moving goalposts left and right. Contradicting yourself then going back on it. Making 1 argument then realizing it doesn't support your initial argument so you change it up to argue the opposite while still insisting you're correct. Truly a sight to behold.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

.... your utility is redundant in this group. The "camp options" you keep droning on about is basically just Ixiblat. Once again the question is "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" NOT "Best 4 person all caster/priest group for Ixiblat". The group already has slow. The group already has malo. The group already has root and other better forms of CC. The group already has tankier pets that do more damage. The group has more heals than it needs. You bring nothing but mediocre DPS which is why you spent 700+ posts with a bunch of napkin math and shitty data trying to prove how much DPS shamans can do. Cause deep down you know that's all you really bring to this group. Unfortunately for you the data kept proving mage was better at it every time you did the math. Now you're arguing the opposite and saying DPS isn't important cause it doesn't get you additional PH/named so you can justify saying shaman redundant bullshit is better somehow.

Please know what I'm about to say I mean with 100% sincerity and honesty and no intention of trolling. You are either the biggest troll I have ever encountered on the internet or one of the stupidest people I've ever conversed with. I'm still not sure which. It's really impressive how bad the arguments you try to make are and how dishonestly you argue. Moving goalposts left and right. Contradicting yourself then going back on it. Making 1 argument then realizing it doesn't support your initial argument so you change it up to argue the opposite while still insisting you're correct. Truly a sight to behold.

All nonsense, and you still can't say why killing 20 mobs in 30 minutes with a Shaman is different than killing 20 mobs in 30 minutes with a Mage. You just can't admit that DPS has it's limits in a game with long respawns. It topples your entire argument for DPS, so you keep deflecting to all the strawmen you have created. It's just easier than admitting you are wrong.

[cyxthryth]

still can't say why killing 20 mobs in 30 minutes with a Shaman is different than killing 20 mobs in 30 minutes with a Mage.

One irrefutable fact (which you cannot refute) is that the individual mobs will simply die faster vs the hypothetical Mage's group than the hypothetical Shaman's group, due to the Mage dealing higher DPS than the Shaman hehe. :) This really isn't hard.

[PlsNoBan]

All nonsense, and you still can't say why killing 20 mobs in 30 minutes with a Shaman is different than killing 20 mobs in 30 minutes with a Mage. You just can't admit that DPS has it's limits in a game with long respawns. It topples your entire argument for DPS, so you keep deflecting to all the strawmen you have created. It's just easier than admitting you are wrong.

It's been stated dozens of times now that 2 encs and a cleric doesn't really need anyone else. Their dps and utility are fully covered for most content in the game. This hypothetical is forcing a 4th player that isn't super needed. The argument is what the best filler class is for that largely unnecessary slot. Your dense fucking skull keeps saying "More dps isn't needed!" and we all fucking know that you moron. Guess what's needed less? Your heals and utility that the group already has. DPS can be stacked nearly infinitely even if its for marginal gain. Healing cannot be stacked infinitely. Full health targets cannot be healed. Not to mention your heal literally slows down DPS. Slowed targets don't need to be slowed again. This is soooooooo fucking simple. The only thing to be gained in a 4th slot here is utility (that the group doesn't already have) and additional DPS even if the DPS gain is minimal.