Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[cyxthryth]

This is where you are simply wrong.

Mob AC/HP/Resists do not change when you play solo vs. group. You have no basis in your claim my DPS parses are irrelevant, or would change.

You tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Your post claiming Troxx's data was way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Your post to Allishia when they provided their initial data:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"arguent" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? :) Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

I am sorry you are angry that I am not complying with your request. That is not a valid argument for claiming my data is irrelevant.

Your apology is as irrelevant as the solo DPS data you provided. No "argument" is required to make the factual claim that your data is irrelevant hehe, the only requirement is that your data be irrelevant - and it is - the reasons for which have been explained multiple times, and you have not - and seemingly cannot - refute them.

You need to prove my data is invalid first.

"Solo" =/= "4 person all caster/priest group"
"Correct" =/= "Relevant"
4 =/=5

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We already went above and beyond the call of duty when we gave you those parses. It showed mage DPS being higher than shaman DPS, and it was recorded in a group. Troxx wasn't trolling you, and you spat in his face.

Any intelligent troll would have bowed out of this thread at that point, but you continue in the name of your ego.

I also spent a lot of time recording my videos, parsing, providing the logs, and showing the math. You are the one who keeps spitting in my face by claiming it is all invalid for literally no reason.

I am sorry, but you get no sympathy as a troll. Troxx started insulting me as early as page 21 when he didn't like what I had to say. He is no saint here.

Honestly the only wounded pride is from yourself. You are so angry you can't help but troll.

[Ripqozko]

I also spent a lot of time recording my videos, parsing, providing the logs, and showing the math. You are the one who keeps spitting in my face by claiming it is all invalid for literally no reason.

I am sorry, but you get no sympathy as a troll. Troxx started insulting me as early as page 21 when he didn't like what I had to say. He is no saint here.

Honestly the only wounded pride is from yourself. You are so angry you can't help but troll.

Yikes

[Gloomlord]

But you can't do all that in a group? Why not?

Is it because you know you're wrong?

"Literally no reason"? You honestly believe that?

[cyxthryth]

I also spent a lot of time recording my videos, parsing, providing the logs, and showing the math. You are the one who keeps spitting in my face by claiming it is all invalid for literally no reason.

No, not "for no reason" - for the reason that has been stated to you mulitple times: the data you have provided is not relevant. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

I am sorry, but you get no sympathy as a troll. Troxx started insulting me as early as page 21. He is no saint either.

Your apology is as irrelevant as the solo Shaman data you have - laughably - continued to provide & seemingly attempted to argue for the relevance of (oh and your opinion that Troxx is no saint; which is simply your opinion) hehe. :)

Honestly the only wounded pride is from yourself. You are so angry you can't help but troll.

You have provided zero evidence to support the claim of wounded pride in the above Quote, therefore it is unsubstantiated (and probably false). Your post also seems to indicate that you believe that you have knowledge of and can therefore make objective claims about others' feelings, such as that they are "so angry they can't help but troll". You have provided zero evidence to support this implication, therefore, it is simply unsubstantiated (and probably false).

You have - still - not provided the definition that you are using for "troll" - can you please provide it for the sake of civil discussion? :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But you can't do all that in a group? Why not?

Is it because you know you're wrong?

"Literally no reason"? You honestly believe that?

Simple. I have already provided the necessary data, and shown matching math.

I am not going to let you spread the false information that DPS cannot be parsed solo.

It's just nonsense.

[Troxx]

Yikes

https://c.tenor.com/wrJ_NpV_nFQAAAAd/nervous-shudder.gif

[Gloomlord]

Simple. I have already provided the necessary data, and shown matching math.

I am not going to let you spread the false information that DPS cannot be parsed solo.

It's just nonsense.

Isn't a parse done from solo, then applied to a group situation, not false information itself?

It's patently unfair, even.

[cyxthryth]

Simple. I have already provided the necessary data, and shown matching math.

I am not going to let you spread the false information that DPS cannot be parsed solo.

It's just nonsense.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing that it is your opinion that you have "provided the necessary data" - despite the irrefutable fact - which you cannot refute - that the data which you are referring to when you make this claim is data which is irrelevant to to the discussion, as been pointed out and explained in detail to you multiple times by multiple posters, including myself.

In the above Quote you appear to attempt to claim that others are attempting to "spread false information that DPS cannot be parsed solo" which is simply an example of you creating a strawman to argue against. You have provided zero evidence of others' (or any particular/specific other) making that particular/specific claim, thus it is an unsubstantiated claim (and probably false) in addition to being a strawman that you have built.

You have not provided the definition that you are using for "nonsense" - can you please provide that for the sake of civil discussion? :)

You tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Your post claiming Troxx's data was way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Your post to Allishia when they provided their initial data:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? :) Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Isn't a parse done from solo, then applied to a group situation, not false information itself?

It's patently unfair, even.

No, because mob HP/AC/Resists do not change when you group and when you solo.

I really don't know where you think the difference is here lol. You have yet to properly explain it. You just keep claiming "the difference is out there".

If your group members are causing you to lose DPS, such as your group keeps getting your pet killed, that is not a valid indicator of class DPS.

[cyxthryth]

No, because mob HP/AC/Resists do not change when you group and when you solo.

I really don't know where you think the difference is here lol. You have yet to properly explain it. You just keep claiming "the difference is out there".

If your group members are causing you to lose DPS, such as your group keeps getting your pet killed, that is not a valid indicator of class DPS.

The data simply only needs to be an indicator of the actual performance / DPS performed in the relevant conext/scenario/environment in order to be a valid indicator of the actual performance / the actual amount of DPS they performed in the relevant context/scenario/environment.

How much DPS a class can do with other players - and their effect ("skew") on the DPS ("data") - removed from the equation (such as parses/data obtained Solo - not in a group), would simply be irrelevant to this discussion - which, again - is about the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" - and therefore simply - specifically, particularly - not about how much DPS a player or class can do with other players - and their effect ("skew") on the DPS ("data") - removed from the equation. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

You tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Your post claiming Troxx's data was way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Your post to Allishia when they provided their initial data:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"arguent" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? :) Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

[Gloomlord]

I mean, we've already explained it. Time and time again. You're outright lying here.

You're just a troll, DSM.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I mean, we've already explained it. Time and time again. You're outright lying here.

You're just a troll, DSM.

No you haven't. Not once. You just keep saying you have. Please show me your explanation. It should be trivial to find it.

[Gloomlord]

No, I refuse to play these games.

If it's trivial for me to find it, then it should be equally trivial for you also to find it.

You think over the course of 300+ pages we haven't refuted every single argument you mustered already?

You think your retort of using a "pocket cleric" wasn't an admission of your defeat?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, I refuse to play these games.

If it's trivial for me to find it, then it should be equally trivial for you also to find it.

You think over the course of 300+ pages we haven't refuted every single argument you mustered already?

You think your retort of using a "pocket cleric" wasn't an admission of your defeat?

Yup, classic trolling. You never need to provide any evidence for your claims. It is the responsibility of everybody else who you are trolling.

[Gloomlord]

Like how you refuse to provide evidence for group DPS as a shaman?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Like how you refuse to provide evidence for group DPS as a shaman?

I didn't refuse. I provided two videos with log data that can be referenced, and plenty of basic math calculations that are using the correct data from the game.

My math calculations are also backed up by the videos, you can see me casting the same spells that are in the math calculations, and it matches.

You haven't provided anything other than rage posts.

[Gloomlord]

But they're not in a group, hence they are irrelevant. How many times are we going to have to repeat this fact to you?

You don't see what is, DSM -- you see only what you want to see.

Somebody want to take over for me? I don't see what else I can say with an obvious troll.

[cyxthryth]

No you haven't. Not once. You just keep saying you have. Please show me your explanation. It should be trivial to find it.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion that it has not already been explained to you why your data is irrelevant, which is - objectively - false.

You tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Your post claiming Troxx's data was way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Your post to Allishia when they provided their initial data:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"arguent" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? :) Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But they're not in a group, hence they are irrelevant. How many times are we going to have to repeat this fact to you?

You don't see what is, DSM -- you see only what you want to see.

The fact that it isn't from a group is the only thing that is irrelevant. Mob AC/HP/Resists don't change when you group vs. solo.

You need to prove your claim that this difference invalidates my data.

[cyxthryth]

Yup, classic trolling. You never need to provide any evidence for your claims. It is the responsibility of everybody else who you are trolling.

You have not provided the definition of "troll"/"trolling" that you are using - can you please provide it for the sake of civil discussion?

[cyxthryth]

The fact that it isn't from a group is the only thing that is irrelevant. Mob AC/HP/Resists don't change when you group vs. solo.

The problem is that your attempt at using the claim "the fact that it isn't from a group is the only thing that is irrelevant" is simply your opinion, the claim is also both unsubstantiated and objectively false. The irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that your data was collected not while in a group is entirely relevant - and it is - specifically, particularly - the reason that your data is not valuable nor valid data to present for how a Shaman would perform in a group (remember - this discussion is - specifically, particularly - about being in a "4 person all caster/priest group") for reasons you may or may not be aware of depending on your current stance/claim/argument(s), which it is unclear which ones you currently support/"argue" due to how often you move goalposts & edit your posts (see below).

You need to prove your claim that this difference invalidates my data. That is a new claim you are making.

"Correct" =/= "Relevant"

You do not have any authority over other posters to tell them what they "need" to do.

For the sake of civil discussion, can you please provide the definition of "new" that you are using? :)

You tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Your post claiming Troxx's data was way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Your post to Allishia when they provided their initial data:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? :) Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

[PlsNoBan]

Mob AC/HP/Resists don't change

Know what else hasn't changed since you were a toddler? Your brainpower and ability to put together an honest argument

https://i.imgur.com/LGHEofD.gif

[PlsNoBan]

Oh shit guys I figured it out. Since apparently we can just change the rules of the question to suit our needs whenever we want. I have my official answer for best 4 man caster/priest group. Ready for it?

Enc/Enc/Enc/Clr and the shaman fucks off and solos somewhere else where he can root rot adds to his hearts content. I think DSM's data will completely back this theory up.

Fuckin thread solved. We can all go home now.

[cyxthryth]

Know what else hasn't changed since you were a toddler? Your brainpower and ability to put together an honest argument

https://i.imgur.com/LGHEofD.gif

Due to the irrefutable objective fact - which cannot be refuted, and is objectively a fact - that no poster in this thread has claimed "AC/HP/Resists change when you group vs. solo", it is an irrefutable objective fact - which cannot be refuted, and is objectively a fact - that in the below Quote DSM has simply built a strawman to argue against. Perhaps he can explain why?

Mob AC/HP/Resists don't change when you group vs. solo.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh shit guys I figured it out. Since apparently we can just change the rules of the question to suit our needs whenever we want. I have my official answer for best 4 man caster/priest group. Ready for it?

Enc/Enc/Enc/Clr and the shaman fucks off and solos somewhere else where he can root rot adds to his hearts content. I think DSM's data will completely back this theory up.

Fuckin thread solved. We can all go home now.

Please go home. Your trolling has done nothing here.

[PlsNoBan]

Please go home. Your trolling has done nothing here.

Admit I'm not a troll or cease feeding me

https://i.imgur.com/YJmqfnI.gif

[cyxthryth]

Please go home. Your trolling has done nothing here.

The above Quote is simply an example of you asking another poster to "please go home" for some reason (at least you said please :)) and sharing that it is your opinion that what you believe is "their trolling" "has done nothing here" - whatever that is supposed to mean.

Again, you have not provided - despite multiple requests for you to provide - the definition that you are using for "troll"/"trolling"; can you please provide that for the sake of civil discussion?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Admit I'm not a troll or cease feeding me

https://i.imgur.com/YJmqfnI.gif

You are a troll who is choosing to continue trolling by his own free will. I am not sure why you need my permission to stop.

[PlsNoBan]

You are a troll who is choosing to continue trolling by his own free will. I am not sure why you need my permission to stop.

Did it sound like I was asking permission to do anything? Was there a question mark anywhere in that post? Maybe that's why everyone thinks you're so stupid. Are you just reading words that aren't there all the time?

https://i.imgur.com/CdOlOSp.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did it sound like I was asking permission to do anything? Maybe that's why everyone thinks you're so stupid. Are you just reading words that aren't there all the time?


Yes, you are asking permission. You are clearly unable to stop posting yourself without my command. That is why you are asking for me to give you the signal to stop posting.

[PlsNoBan]

Yes, you are asking permission. You are clearly unable to stop posting yourself without my command.

https://i.imgur.com/V5IGBst.gif

I don't even know how to respond to this. There is no possible way you believe this. Do you believe I'd stop posting if you "commanded" me to? Would you like to place a VERY VERY LARGE wager on it?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/V5IGBst.gif

I don't even know how to respond to this. There is no possible way you believe this. Do you believe I'd stop posting if you "commanded" me to? Would you like to place a VERY VERY LARGE wager on it?

That is percisely whats happening. You are waiting for me to stop posting or tell you you aren't a troll. That means your actions are determined by my will, not yours.

If you are free, simply stop posting and prove you aren't waiting for my command.

[cyxthryth]

Yes, you are asking permission.

You have provided zero evidence to support the above Quoted claim, and therefore it is simply unsubstantiated (and probably false); I am not sure why you have seemingly attmpted to state your opinion as an objective fact, when it is - objectively - only your opinion (and not an objective fact).


You are clearly unable to stop posting yourself without my command. That is why you are asking for me to give you the signal to stop posting.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing that it is your opinion that another poster is "clearly unable to stop posting their self" "without your command", and that "that is why they are asking for you to give you the signal to stop posting"; which is simply your opinion. I am not sure why your post seems to indicate/reveal/expose/betray that you believe that you are able to state your opinion as an objective fact when in reality is simply your opinion - not an objective fact.

[PlsNoBan]

That is percisely whats happening. You are waiting for me to stop posting or tell you you aren't a troll. That means your actions are determined by my will, not yours.

If you are free, simply stop posting and prove you aren't waiting for me.

https://i.imgur.com/K1CqduE.gif

Just when I think you've already said all the dumb things you could possibly say you surprise me again. I'm struggling to come up with words for how weird and dumb this is. I promise there is just about nothing in this world I care about less than your opinion of me or whether or not you think I'm a troll. You however have made it abundantly clear that you think I'm nothing but a troll that should be ignored. Yet you respond to my posts and "feed the troll" constantly. Bit odd don't ya think?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/K1CqduE.gif

Just when I think you've already said all the dumb things you could possibly say you surprise me again. I'm struggling to come up with words for how weird and dumb this is. I promise there is just about nothing in this world I care about less than your opinion of me or whether or not you think I'm a troll. You however have made it abundantly clear that you think I'm nothing but a troll that should be ignored. Yet you respond to my posts and "feed the troll" constantly. Bit odd don't ya think?

If you don't care, then stop posting. You are the one who is claiming they are waiting for me to say you aren't a troll or stop posting. I am not sure why you are unable to stop yourself, and have to wait for my command instead.

[cyxthryth]

That is percisely whats happening. You are waiting for me to stop posting or tell you you aren't a troll. That means your actions are determined by my will, not yours.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing that it is your opinion that "that" (whatever that is) "is precisely whats happening", and that another poster is waiting for you to stop posting or tell them that they aren't a troll and that that means their actions are determined by your will, not theirs; which is simply your opinion.

If you are free, simply stop posting and prove you aren't waiting for my command.

The problem is that your post seems to indicate that you believe that if another poster is "free" they should "simply stop posting and prove they aren't waiting for your command" as if you believe you have authority over them - which you do not have - that allows you to tell them what they are free or are not free to do.

[cyxthryth]

If you don't care, then stop posting. You are the one who is claiming they are waiting for me to say you aren't a troll or stop posting. I am not sure why you are unable to stop yourself, and have to wait for my command instead.

The problem is that the post that you posted which I have Quoted above seems to indicate that you believe that if another poster "doesn't care" (about something which you did not define in the above Quote) then they should "stop posting", seemingly simply because you are saying that they should as if you have some authority over them - which you do not have - which allows you to tell them what to do.

The above Quote is also simply an example of you sharing that it is your opinion that another poster "is the one who is claiming they are waiting for you to say they aren't a troll" or for you to stop posting, and that you believe another poster is "unable to stop themself and have to wait for your command instead". You have not provided any factual data/evidence or logic/math that would support such beliefs and/or cause you to form such opinions, but you are entitled to them.

[PlsNoBan]

If you don't care, then stop posting. You are the one who is claiming they are waiting for me to say you aren't a troll or stop posting. I am not sure why you are unable to stop yourself, and have to wait for my command instead.

I honestly have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Why you think I said anything that resembles asking for your permission about anything is mind boggling to me. I was simply pointing out how dumb it is to repeatedly call someone a troll that should be ignored and then respond to their alleged trolling 1000+ times. It's the most ridiculous shit I've ever seen.

If you truly believe I'm seeking your permission to stop posting then let's make a bet. Go ahead and try to command me to stop posting. If I stop posting I'll give you every material possession I own in the known universe. If I post even a single time after being commanded to stop you must delete all of your everquest characters and never visit this forum again for the rest of your life. We got a deal? Ready to put your money where your enormous mouth is?

(Mods I'm making a joke here to prove a point. Pls don't ban me for talking about RMT)

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/LNKN4pb.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I honestly have no fucking idea what you're talking about. Why you think I said anything that resembles asking for your permission about anything is mind boggling to me. I was simply pointing out how dumb it is to repeatedly call someone a troll that should be ignored and then respond to their alleged trolling 1000+ times. It's the most ridiculous shit I've ever seen.

If you truly believe I'm seeking your permission to stop posting then let's make a bet. Go ahead and try to command me to stop posting. If I stop posting I'll give you every material possession I own in the known universe. If I post even a single time after being commanded to stop you must delete all of your everquest characters and never visit this forum again for the rest of your life. We got a deal? Ready to put your money where your enormous mouth is?

(Mods I'm making a joke here to prove a point. Pls don't ban me for talking about RMT)

You are the one who is missing the point.

You claim you don't care, but you are still posting.

You want me to admit you aren't a troll, but you claim not to care if you are called one.

You want me to stop posting, but you just keep posting yourself.

Your motivation is the only thing that doesn't make sense. If you are a troll, admit it and become another Cyxthryth, copy/pasting nonsense.

If you don't want to be called a troll, that is the real reason why you are asking me to stop calling you that. You are waiting for me to admit you arent a troll, or to stop posting.

If you truly don't care about any of this, the answer is to walk away and stop trolling.

[PlsNoBan]

You are the one who is missing the point.

You claim you don't care, but you are still posting.

You want me to admit you aren't a troll, but you claim not to care if you are called one.

You want me to stop posting, but you just keep posting yourself.

Your motivation is the only thing that doesn't make sense. If you are a troll, admit it and become another Cyxthryth, copy/pasting nonsense.

If you don't want to be called a troll, that is the real reason why you are asking me to stop calling you that. You are waiting for me to admit you arent a troll, or to stop posting.

If you truly don't care about any of this, the answer is to walk away and stop trolling.

Soooo.... Do we have a bet or not?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Soooo.... Do we have a bet or not?

You keep posting, so you have already lost the bet. You just can't let this thread go without me saying you aren't a troll.

[PlsNoBan]

You keep posting, so you have already lost the bet. You just can't let this thread go without me saying you aren't a troll.

Do you agree to the terms of the bet as I explained them? You attempt to command me to stop posting and if I post again you lose and have to delete chars and never visit this forum again? If you're so certain that I care about your permission or anything you have to say then this should be an easy bet for you. You're going to receive a substantial amount of value if you win.

Are we on or not?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Do you agree to the terms of the bet as I explained them? You attempt to command me to stop posting and if I post again you lose and have to delete chars and never visit this forum again? If you're so certain that I care about your permission or anything you have to say then this should be an easy bet for you. You're going to receive a substantial amount of value if you win.

Are we on or not?

You just posted again. You are still waiting for those words, that you aren't a troll. I am sorry, but you are.

[PlsNoBan]

You just posted again. You are still waiting for those words, that you aren't a troll. I am sorry, but you are.

Oh look DSM deflecting again and refusing to answer the question

https://i.imgur.com/ktH9fpJ.gif

Is it painful? Being so full of shit?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh look DSM deflecting again and refusing to answer the question

https://i.imgur.com/ktH9fpJ.gif

Is it painful? Being so full of shit?

You are the one who said they are waiting for me to say you aren't a troll or to stop posting.

If you are a troll, then I am not sure why you need any signal from me to continue your trolling. Just do it. If you want to show you aren't a troll, then stop trolling.

[PlsNoBan]

Don't stop posting now DSM! I'm a troll and I need to be fed!

https://i.imgur.com/aPOwUQy.gif

[cyxthryth]

You are the one who is missing the point.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of who is missing the point; which is simply your opinion (that you have not supported with any relevant fact based data/evidence, nor logic or math).

You claim you don't care, but you are still posting.

The problem with what you have stated in the above Quote is that it would seem to imply that you believe there is some - or any - reason that the other poster "should stop posting" as if you believed that you have some authority over them that they should stop posting simply because you would - apparently - like them to, for some reason which you have not provided in the above Quote.

You want me to admit you aren't a troll, but you claim not to care if you are called one.

Someone can simply want another person to say/admit something despite not caring. Caring is not a requirement to make a request of another person/poster, and you have provided no evidence to the contrary.

You want me to stop posting, but you just keep posting yourself.

The above Quote is simply an example of you indicating that you believe another poster wants you to stop posting (for some reason which you did not provide in the above Quote), and you correctly stating that the other poster is continuing to post - which they are free to do regardless of what you believe or what you choose to type.

Your motivation is the only thing that doesn't make sense. If you are a troll, admit it and become another Cyxthryth, copy/pasting nonsense.

The problem is the Quote above includes you claiming something does not make sense, but you have not provided any reason/logic or data/evidence or math that supports such a claim, and thus it is unsubstantiated (and probably false). You again claim I am a troll, and that I am copy/pasting nonsense - despite the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that I am not only copy/pasting, and you have not provided the definition that you are using for "nonsense", so I am not sure what point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting.

If you don't want to be called a troll, that is the real reason why you are asking me to stop calling you that. You are waiting for me to admit you arent a troll, or to stop posting.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of what is "the real reason" another poster is asking you to stop calling them a troll - which you have not defined - and that you believe the other poster is waiting for you to admit (this particular verbiage seemingly betraying that you do not truly believe the other person is a troll, and would thus be able to "admit" such a thing (which - if you did not believe, you would not be "admitting", as you would simply be falsely stating it (for some reason) - not "admitting" (your true, factual stance/claim/position/"argument") it.

If you truly don't care about any of this, the answer is to walk away and stop trolling.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing that it is your opinion that if another poster "truly doesn't care about any of this" that you believe "the answer" is for them to "walk away and stop trolling"; which is simply your opinion, and you have - still - not provided the definition that you are using for "troll"/"trolling". Can you please provide that for the sake of civil discussion? :)

[cyxthryth]

You just posted again. You are still waiting for those words, that you aren't a troll. I am sorry, but you are.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing that it is your opinion/belief that another poster is waiting for "those words, that they are not a troll", but that it is your opinion that they are. That is simply your opinon, and not an objective fact, and thus should not be stated as if it were an objective fact, which - again - it is not, it is simply your opinion.

[PlsNoBan]

Admit I'm not a troll or cease feeding me

https://i.imgur.com/YJmqfnI.gif

I think maybe you read this HILARIOUSLY wrong and that's why you're confused and saying shit that makes no sense whatsoever. This was me saying "If I'm a troll why are you even responding to me? Shit doesn't add up. Just come clean already and admit you don't actually think I'm a troll or just do what normal people do when they truly believe someone is trolling and ignore them". You seemingly believe everyone in this thread except you is a troll yet you've posted nearly 1100 times in direct response to trolls that you continuously say should "be ignored". Interpreting my quoted post above as me "asking for permission to stop posting" or that I'm seeking some kind of validation from you in the form of an admission that I'm not a troll is fucking hilarious. I was calling out your hypocrisy and idiocy. Don't flatter yourself. I get entertainment out of reading the ramblings of a lunatic and pointing out the plethora of ways in which everything he says is stupid. Don't ask me why cause I don't know the answer. I just do. That's why I'm still here.

You don't even believe the bullshit you're saying. Otherwise you'd accept my bet. Instead you dodge the question and spew more bullshit.

[cyxthryth]

You are the one who said they are waiting for me to say you aren't a troll or to stop posting.

You have provided zero evidence to support the claim Quoted above, thus it is simply unsubstantiated (and probably false).

If you are a troll, then I am not sure why you need any signal from me to continue your trolling. Just do it. If you want to show you aren't a troll, then stop trolling.

I am not sure why your post would seem to imply that you believe that there is any specific/particular reason that any specific/particular poster needs (or does not need) to "stop trolling" when you simply have not even provided the definition of what you believe "trolling"/"being a troll" is - despite having been asked (directly) multiple times; can you please provide this definition for the sake of civil discussion?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Don't stop posting now DSM! I'm a troll and I need to be fed!

https://i.imgur.com/aPOwUQy.gif

Thanks for admitting this, yet again.

It is quite obvious, but it helps show how disingenous you have been thoughout this thread. It is why you can just dismiss whatever data and math people provide. You are here to troll, not to have a debate.

[PlsNoBan]

Thanks for admitting this, yet again.

It is quite obvious, but it helps show how disingenous you have been thoughout this thread. It is why you can just dismiss whatever data and math people provide. You are here to troll, not to have a debate.

Yup I'm definitely nothing but a troll that should be ignored. Along with all the other posters here. Now please ignore all of us and stop responding to troll posts. We would all greatly appreciate it.

https://i.imgur.com/4Al5Xtr.gif

[cyxthryth]

Thanks for admitting this, yet again.

It is quite obvious, but it helps show how disingenous you have been thoughout this thread. It is why you can just dismiss whatever data and math people provide. You are here to troll, not to have a debate.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of what you believe to be "quite obvious"; which is simply your opinion.

I am not sure why your post would seem to indicate that you believe that you have knowledge of and can therefore make objective claims about what other posters or any specific/particular other poster is/are "here to do".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[cyxthryth]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

You tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Your post claiming Troxx's data was way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Your post to Allishia when they provided their initial data:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? :) Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

[PlsNoBan]

Short circuited him back into copy pasting cause he has no counter point to what I'm saying lol. He either doesn't believe we're all trolls and keeps using that label to dismiss our arguments OR he DOES believe we're all trolls but still posts 1100 times in direct response to troll posts. Those are literally the only 2 options and neither of them is good for DSM. Makes him look extremely foolish either way. Backed into a corner he resorts to copy pasting nonsense again lol

https://media2.giphy.com/media/iOm1xOSfAtPzmPXJqH/200.gif

[Gloomlord]

You know what? Just let him have the "win".

As I said, it's pyrrhic victory for him either way. Noone is taking him seriously anymore.

NOONE!

[PatChapp]

Let's get this to 5000pages

[Gloomlord]

Let's get this to 5000pages

Actually, let's not.

God, it's mentally exhausting talking with this guy. But I suppose that's the point, isn't it?

His insanity is a wonderful boon for him. As soon as we tire of him, he'll mentally proclaim "I won this argument fair and square".

[Troxx]

You know what? Just let him have the win

https://c.tenor.com/k7576P0RCakAAAAd/michael-scott-creasing-forehead.gif

Nah I’m really enjoying this. Every time he copies and pastes that long ass drivel of a post with the preface plea to the silent masses to ignore the all the trolls … followed by the listing of literally all the other people actually reading the thread …

My heart is like …

https://c.tenor.com/Yhmjrf2VfSAAAAAC/hills-are.gif

… because it reinforces that we have already won.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Short circuited him back into copy pasting cause he has no counter point to what I'm saying lol. He either doesn't believe we're all trolls and keeps using that label to dismiss our arguments OR he DOES believe we're all trolls but still posts 1100 times in direct response to troll posts. Those are literally the only 2 options and neither of them is good for DSM. Makes him look extremely foolish either way. Backed into a corner he resorts to copy pasting nonsense again lol


I am not sure how you got me. You have yet to disprove anything in that post. Trolling doesn't count unfortunately.

All I can do is repost the facts because you can't be bothered to do anything other than troll.

Actually, let's not.

God, it's mentally exhausting talking with this guy. But I suppose that's the point, isn't it?

His insanity is a wonderful boon for him. As soon as we tire of him, he'll mentally proclaim "I won this argument fair and square".

You really have this strange idea I am trying to "win". I am just keeping the facts from being drowned out by trolls like yourself. You can stop posting or prove me wrong via evidence at any time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[Toxigen]

jesus christ DSM

[Gloomlord]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling.

https://c.tenor.com/Elp6DxobGWkAAAAC/truman-show.gif

Utter lunatic!

[Troxx]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288….




Nah I’m really enjoying this. Every time he copies and pastes that long ass drivel of a post with the preface plea to the silent masses to ignore the all the trolls … followed by the listing of literally all the other people actually reading the thread …

My heart is like …

https://c.tenor.com/Yhmjrf2VfSAAAAAC/hills-are.gif

… because it reinforces that we have already won.

[Toxigen]

beep beep boop short circuit copy paste

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You have lost so completely you have to keep posting that you "won" to reassure yourself. Yikes.

You should win with facts and logic instead. Sadly, trolling is all you have been doing, so nothing has been accomplished on your part. My data still stands.

[cyxthryth]

You have lost so completely you have to keep posting that you "won" to reassure yourself. Yikes.

You should win with facts and logic instead. Sadly, trolling is all you have been doing, so nothing has been accomplished on your part. My data still stands.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing that it is your opinion that another poster has "lost so completely they have to keep posting that they 'won' to reassure themself" and that you believe that they "should win with facts and logic", but you believe that "all they have been doing is trolling" - which you have not provided the definition for - and that you believe that "your data still stands"; which - of course - are simply your opinions hehe. :)

For the sake of civil discussion can you please provide the definitions that you are using for "trolling" and "stands"? :)

You tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Your post claiming Troxx's data was way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Your post to Allishia when they provided their initial data:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? :) Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/osv21u6.gif

Just had an interesting thought. What if DSM was actually just an advanced chat bot algorithm being trained on elfsim forums? That would explain quite a lot. If it was programmed to never admit defeat in an argument it would just move the goalposts all the time or repeat the same stupid thing that's obviously false over and over then eventually just start copy pasting the exact same stuff word for word when it ran out of things to say.

Have we been arguing with a GPT-3 bot for 330+ pages? Did we ACTUALLY short circuit it into copy/paste mode? The way it behaves doesn't really seem human

[cyxthryth]

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify this/these for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Jimjam]

Considering the duration of Bane of Nife a 42 second burn followed by 18 seconds down time to spam canny / torpor (with no other mobs in camp for pets to attrition on in that time) looks like the perfect storm for shaman burst dps but it still compares unfavourably to magician.

We’re using data from Seb/KC, right? What is the scenario the 42 second burn with no other mobs in camp meant to be modelling?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Considering the duration of Bane of Nife a 42 second burn followed by 18 seconds down time to spam canny / torpor (with no other mobs in camp for pets to attrition on in that time) looks like the perfect storm for shaman burst dps but it still compares unfavourably to magician.

We’re using data from Seb/KC, right? What is the scenario the 42 second burn with no other mobs in camp meant to be modelling?

The pro Mage side for 300 pages now has been trying to constrain the discussion to a vary narrow scope to paint Mages in the best light possible:

A group of four level 60's is chain pulling trash mobs one at a time (in this case high 40's Sebilis mobs with around 8000 HP). Additionally, they are saying the Shaman cannot root/rot trash mobs that Shamans could normally solo and root rot. I have no idea why, since this would increase DPS with no additional risk.

I have been humoring them by providing data and maths for this specific scenario to strong man their arguments.

I personally think this is strange, because a group of four level 60's it typically not going to just be chain pulling trash mobs. They will be doing money camps like Fungi King, Ixiblat Fer, Chardok, etc. In those situations You are 100% correct a Shaman's DPS will be better due to them being able to use DoTs fully.

DoT DPS is still not as good as a Mage when talking about single targets, but the math shows the difference in DPS isn't really giving you anything even when looking at a Shaman's worst possible DPS. You have already reached the proper DPS breakpoints with an Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman group. That is the group composition most commonly being discussed, which is being compared to Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

[cyxthryth]

The pro Mage side for 300 pages now has been trying to constrain the discussion to a vary narrow scope to paint Mages in the best light possible:

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing that it is your opinion that "The pro Mage side for 300 pages now has been trying to constrain the discussion to a vary narrow scope to paint Mages in the best light possible"; which is simply your opinion.

A group of four level 60's is chain pulling trash mobs (in this case high 40's Sebilis mobs with around 8000 HP). Additionally, they are saying the Shaman cannot root/rot trash mobs that Shamans could normally solo and root rot. I have no idea why, since this would increase DPS with no additional risk.

I am not sure why you are - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide evidence of your Shaman root/rotting such trash mobs in the specifically/particularly relevant (to this discussion) environment/context/scenario, despite having been requested to multiple times by multiple posters, as that particular data would be relevant to the discussion (as has been explained to you multiple times, by multiple posters) - unlike the data/evidence you continue to copy/paste, and/or the various opinions you seemingly hold which you have - seemingly - attempted to - laughably - claim/state as objective fact.

I personally think this is strange, because a group of four level 60's it typically not going to just be chain pulling trash mobs. They will be doing money camps like Fungi King, Ixiblat Fer, Chardok, etc. In those situations You are 100% correct a Shaman's DPS will be better due to them being able to use DoTs fully.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing what you would - presumably, seemingly - like to convey to other posters (or a particular/specific other poster) that you - personally - think, and what you - personally - think "will be better", and what you would - presumably, seemingly - like to convey you believe a group of four level 60's "will be doing".

If you were to attempt to utilize the fact that another particular/specific poster seemed to agree with you on one or more particular points to attempt to claim, state, or otherwise imply/reveal/betray/expose (intentionally or otherwise) that you believe that could, would, or did somehow strengthen your argument, that would simply be an example of you claiming your argument is strengthened due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum - like you previously (intentionally or otherwise) attempted to claim by attempting to claim/imply that it was relevant that you and OP both (apparently) believe that "OP's post was/is general", and that that somehow meant there are no goalposts and/or that you have not moved the goalposts, simply due to you (and OP) making and agreeing with that claim. You have - laughably - still not provided the meaning that you were attempting to convey by "general" (or what meaning you believed the OP was attempting to convey causing you to - seemingly - agree with them).

DoT DPS is still not as good as a Mage when talking about single targets, but the math shows the difference in DPS isn't really giving you anything even when looking at a Shaman's worst possible DPS. You have already reached the proper DPS breakpoints.

For the sake of civil discussion, can you please go into a bit more detail about what meaning you are attempting to convey via the use of "isn't really giving you anything"?

[PlsNoBan]

this would increase DPS with no additional risk.

https://i.imgur.com/MsAludK.gif

Someone fix this buggy ass chat bot please. It's saying infuriatingly stupid things.

[PlsNoBan]

Fucking ROFL at the guy answering the "best 4 man caster/priest group" question with "Just level a 5th pocket cleric" and repeatedly bringing up Ixiblat and WW dragons (the only things that MIGHT make sense to bring a shaman in this group for) so he can shoehorn his beloved shaman into the group instead. THEN accusing the OTHER people of "trying to constrain the discussion to a vary narrow scope" to paint their side in the best light possible.

You can't make this shit up

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/MsAludK.gif

Someone fix this buggy ass chat bot please. It's saying infuriatingly stupid things.

You are the one who keeps claiming the group is good and doesn't wipe. Now you are arguing for safety? Which is it?

[cyxthryth]

You are the one who keeps claiming the group is good and doesn't wipe. Now you are arguing for safety? Which is it?

In the above Quote, you have simply not addressed the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that you indicated/revealed/exposed/betrayed/confirmed your seemingly apparent - objectively false - belief that introducing additional mobs to a group introduces no additional risk, which is simply - again - objectively false, even if the mobs will be root/rotted:

they are saying the Shaman cannot root/rot trash mobs that Shamans could normally solo and root rot. I have no idea why, since this would increase DPS with no additional risk.

The above Quote would appear to include what appears to be you attempting to deflect by asking an - irrelevant - question in order to avoid addressing the above-mentioned unaddressed irrefutable fact (which you have not acknowledged/addressed/attempted to refute); which would simply be an example of deflection.

[PlsNoBan]

You are the one who keeps claiming the group is good and doesn't wipe. Now you are arguing for safety? Which is it?

A group with 2 (or more) enchanters in it is relying heavily on mez for CC in the event that CC is needed. It's objectively a better form of CC than root and just automatically safer and more reliable. A moron shaman root rotting a bunch of adds all over camp with a random chance to break root and be unmezzable cause they're dotted 100% adds risk. To claim it adds 0 risk is absolutely retarded. There's no other word for it. Mez is a huge part of the reason this group is so safe and unlikely to wipe. A single enchanter can keep tons of adds mezzed for quite a long time if shit hits the fan and there's no random chance to break and be beating on people.

The fact that I have to explain this to you is concerning. Have you even played this game before? Do you do anything but solo? I'm guessing probably not. Who the fuck would want to group with you.

[PatChapp]

A malo/tashed mob isn't going to be breaking roots constantly. Really not dangerous at all

[cyxthryth]

A malo/tashed mob isn't going to be breaking roots constantly. Really not dangerous at all

"Constantly" =/= "at all"
Any amount of risk that is not no risk =/= no risk

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A group with 2 (or more) enchanters in it is relying heavily on mez for CC in the event that CC is needed. It's objectively a better form of CC than root and just automatically safer and more reliable. A moron shaman root rotting a bunch of adds all over camp with a random chance to break root and be unmezzable cause they're dotted 100% adds risk. To claim it adds 0 risk is absolutely retarded. There's no other word for it. Mez is a huge part of the reason this group is so safe and unlikely to wipe. A single enchanter can keep tons of adds mezzed for quite a long time if shit hits the fan and there's no random chance to break and be beating on people.

The fact that I have to explain this to you is concerning. Have you even played this game before? Do you do anything but solo? I'm guessing probably not. Who the fuck would want to group with you.

Now you are arguing for saftey. So you agree with me lol.

A complete 180 from your previous "groups never wipe" argument. Amazing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A malo/tashed mob isn't going to be breaking roots constantly. Really not dangerous at all

Agreed. I never wipe when root/rotting. It is quite easy.

[PlsNoBan]

Now you are arguing for saftey. So you agree with me lol.

A complete 180 from your previous "groups never wipe" argument. Amazing.

Go fuck yourself. I explained my stance and you willfully ignored it to try to spin it into your nonsense. Mez is a LARGE part of why this group is safe and doesn't wipe. Root rot ruins mez thus lowering the safety of the group (Which without root rot it has plenty of)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Now you are arguing for saftey. So you agree with me lol.

A complete 180 from your previous "groups never wipe" argument. Amazing.

[PlsNoBan]

Safety has a limit you imbecile. The group has more than enough of it. Your dots ruin it. This isn't hard.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Now you are arguing for saftey. So you agree with me lol.

A complete 180 from your previous "groups never wipe" argument. Amazing.

[Ripqozko]

Mega Yikes

[PlsNoBan]

DSM stupidity is almost causing me physical pain at this point

[Troxx]

Are we still root rotting mobs parallel to the group? All so the shaman can still do less actual dps than the mage? You do remember epic dot take a long while to ramp up and the 2x enchanter pets are going to be buzz sawing through them fast enough that you are dumping a lot of mana or slow ramp up clicks into mobs that still won’t receive full damage from the dots?

And remember this group has all content from 1-59 to contend with before they GET to 60, have full spell books or epics to click right.

We have so far focused this discussion for the most part on the high end level 60 game but that is a tiny corner of the content eq has to offer

[PatChapp]

I lvld my enchanter a lot of 56-60 with a necro duo.
He would pull and park with paralyzing, while my charm pet killed one at a time. Swap new pet every 4or 5 merbs, root parking is very adequate cc. Very high kill rate,very safe until casters get in the mix. With casters we just tried to park them around corners or prioritized them on the kill list.
Root parking is strong cc,and frees up the enchanter for enchanter things.

[Troxx]

Mega Yikes

https://c.tenor.com/wrJ_NpV_nFQAAAAd/nervous-shudder.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I lvld my enchanter a lot of 56-60 with a necro duo.
He would pull and park with paralyzing, while my charm pet killed one at a time. Swap new pet every 4or 5 merbs, root parking is very adequate cc. Very high kill rate,very safe until casters get in the mix. With casters we just tried to park them around corners or prioritized them on the kill list.
Root parking is strong cc,and frees up the enchanter for enchanter things.

Yup. It is a perfectly valid strategy for anybody who doesn't have some strange obsession against it.

[Troxx]

I lvld my enchanter a lot of 56-60 with a necro duo.
He would pull and park with paralyzing, while my charm pet killed one at a time. Swap new pet every 4or 5 merbs, root parking is very adequate cc. Very high kill rate,very safe until casters get in the mix. With casters we just tried to park them around corners or prioritized them on the kill list.
Root parking is strong cc,and frees up the enchanter for enchanter things.

I don’t think you know what he is referring to man. He isn’t pulling one mob and parking it for the group. He is planning on pulling FOUR or FIVE additional mobs all so he can root rot them while the enchanters x2 with their own charmed hasted pets are dealing with their own mobs to kill. All while having one cleric to heal them all. These 4-5 additional adds are dotted mind you so you hamstring the best cc enchanters have in their arsenal.

And why? So the shaman can still do less damage than the mage and pet … and while increasing the baseline risk for the group, at a minimum by 400-500% (more since you can’t even mez the adds.

https://c.tenor.com/RkWhIPCOfDMAAAAC/rip-turnaround.gif

His arguments are the flailings of a sad autistic robot caught in the webs of his own illogical arguments.

[cyxthryth]

I lvld my enchanter a lot of 56-60 with a necro duo.
He would pull and park with paralyzing, while my charm pet killed one at a time. Swap new pet every 4or 5 merbs, root parking is very adequate cc. Very high kill rate,very safe until casters get in the mix. With casters we just tried to park them around corners or prioritized them on the kill list.
Root parking is strong cc,and frees up the enchanter for enchanter things.

"Very safe" =/= "No risk" this really isn't hard hehe. :)

Yup. It is a perfectly valid strategy for anybody who doesn't have some strange obsession against it.



If you were to attempt to utilize the fact that another particular/specific poster seemed to agree with you on one or more particular points to attempt to claim, state, or otherwise imply/reveal/betray/expose (intentionally or otherwise) that you believe that could, would, or did somehow strengthen your argument, that would simply be an example of you claiming your argument is strengthened due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum - like you previously (intentionally or otherwise) attempted to claim by attempting to claim/imply that it was relevant that you and OP both (apparently) believe that "OP's post was/is general", and that that somehow meant there are no goalposts and/or that you have not moved the goalposts, simply due to you (and OP) making and agreeing with that claim. You have - laughably - still not provided the meaning that you were attempting to convey by "general" (or what meaning you believed the OP was attempting to convey causing you to - seemingly - agree with them).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don’t think you know what he is referring to man. He isn’t pulling one mob and parking it for the group. He is planning on pulling FOUR or FIVE additional mobs all so he can root rot them while the enchanters x2 with their own charmed hasted pets are dealing with their own mobs to kill. All while having one cleric to heal them all. These 4-5 additional adds are dotted mind you so you hamstring the best cc enchanters have in their arsenal.

And why? So the shaman can still do less damage than the mage and pet … and while increasing the baseline risk for the group, at a minimum by 400-500% (more since you can’t even mez the adds.


I never die root rotting solo. You have very strange ideas about how grouping somehow changes how mobs work.

[PlsNoBan]

I don’t think you know what he is referring to man. He isn’t pulling one mob and parking it for the group. He is planning on pulling FOUR or FIVE additional mobs all so he can root rot them while the enchanters x2 with their own charmed hasted pets are dealing with their own mobs to kill. All while having one cleric to heal them all. These 4-5 additional adds are dotted mind you so you hamstring the best cc enchanters have in their arsenal.

And why? So the shaman can still do less damage than the mage and pet … and while increasing the baseline risk for the group, at a minimum by 400-500% (more since you can’t even mez the adds.

https://c.tenor.com/RkWhIPCOfDMAAAAC/rip-turnaround.gif

His arguments are the flailings of a sad autistic robot caught in the webs of his own illogical arguments.

This. Fucking exactly this. Root is perfectly fine CC. Mez is better. Rooting 5-6 adds parallel to the group and dotting them all so if root breaks during a charm break or something and they can't be mezzed. This 100% adds unnecessary risk just to mildly increase shitty shaman dps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I never die root rotting solo. You have very strange ideas about how grouping somehow changes how mobs work.

[PatChapp]

I'm not sure why you all think this is very risky.
When root breaks,the mob isn't going to attack the enchanters it's going for the shaman. Anyone can reroot it.
Why wouldn't a shaman,with the extremely common epic poker, dot rooted mobs while the group kills the rest?
Do I think it's the best strategy for hard camps? No but it would work well for xp grind groups especially.
In hard camps at 60 your trying to kill the named ph and don't care about the rest of the trash.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not sure why you all think this is very risky.
When root breaks,the mob isn't going to attack the enchanters it's going for the shaman. Anyone can reroot it.
Why wouldn't a shaman,with the extremely common epic poker, dot rooted mobs while the group kills the rest?
Do I think it's the best strategy for hard camps? No but it would work well for xp grind groups especially.
In hard camps at 60 your trying to kill the named ph and don't care about the rest of the trash.

Exactly.

[cyxthryth]

I never die root rotting solo.

You have provided zero evidence to support this claim, and therefore it is simply unsubstantiated (and probably false).

You have very strange ideas about how grouping somehow changes how mobs work.

The above Quote is simply an example of you attempting to make objective statements/claims about what "ideas" other posters have - laughably - when you have provided zero evidence to support your ability to make such objective claims, which are therefore unsubstantiated (and probably false); and are - objectively - simply your opinion(s).

[Troxx]

A) Shamans are not a group dps class.

B) The group doesn’t need the shamans utility or heals.

C) The group does not want “still shittier than mage” shaman dps now spread out across 5 additional epic dotted mobs that can’t be mezzed.

D) You have been wrong for 336 of the most hilariously absurd pages of the most asinine thread I have ever read on the internet. You did it yourself DSM.

[cyxthryth]

I'm not sure why you all think this is very risky.
When root breaks,the mob isn't going to attack the enchanters it's going for the shaman. Anyone can reroot it.
Why wouldn't a shaman,with the extremely common epic poker, dot rooted mobs while the group kills the rest?
Do I think it's the best strategy for hard camps? No but it would work well for xp grind groups especially.
In hard camps at 60 your trying to kill the named ph and don't care about the rest of the trash.

I am not sure why the above Quote's content would seem to include you attempting to move the goalpost from discussing a particular - objectively false - claim that there would be "no additional risk" introducing additional mobs to an encounter, to - somehow/for some reason - being about whether or why others "think it is very risky"?

That would simply seem to be an example of a strawman that you have built to argue against. Why have you - seemingly - done that?

Exactly.


If you were to attempt to utilize the fact that another particular/specific poster seemed to agree with you on one or more particular points to attempt to claim, state, or otherwise imply/reveal/betray/expose (intentionally or otherwise) that you believe that could, would, or did somehow strengthen your argument, that would simply be an example of you claiming your argument is strengthened due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum - like you previously (intentionally or otherwise) attempted to claim by attempting to claim/imply that it was relevant that you and OP both (apparently) believe that "OP's post was/is general", and that that somehow meant there are no goalposts and/or that you have not moved the goalposts, simply due to you (and OP) making and agreeing with that claim. You have - laughably - still not provided the meaning that you were attempting to convey by "general" (or what meaning you believed the OP was attempting to convey causing you to - seemingly - agree with them).

[Troxx]

Do I think it's the best strategy for hard camps? No but it would work well for xp grind groups especially.
In hard camps at 60 your trying to kill the named ph and don't care about the rest of the trash.

Would/could it work? Sure. Lots of things work. But look at the title of the thread: best 4 man all caster/priest group. Emphasis on “Best”. This group could work with 4 mages. Or 4 necros. Or 4 enchanters … or hell 4 shamans easily. Lots of weird combos work.

You are 336 pages late to this thread. I recommend you start at page 1.

[PlsNoBan]

Would/could it work? Sure. Lots of things work. But look at the title of the thread: best 4 man all caster/priest group. Emphasis on “Best”. This group could work with 4 mages. Or 4 necros. Or 4 enchanters … or hell 4 shamans easily. Lots of weird combos work.

You are 336 pages late to this thread. I recommend you start at page 1.

/thread

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do something and it CERTAINLY doesn't mean it's the "best" thing. Which is what this thread is about.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The trolls get mad whenever basic facts of the game are explained.

[cyxthryth]

The trolls get mad whenever basic facts of the game are explained.

You have not provided the definition of "troll" that you are using, and the above Quote is simply an example of you sharing that it is your opinion - which you are seemingly - laughably - attempting to state/claim as an objective fact - that "the trolls get mad whenever basic facts of the game are explained"; which is simply your opinion. As you have provided zero evidence to support it, the claim is also unsubstantiated (and probably false).

[Ripqozko]

The trolls get mad whenever basic facts of the game are explained.

Mega yikes

[Troxx]

I mean really. This group would easily work great with 2 ench + cleric + a FD necro who never contributed a damn thing. And it would work well because ench/cleric may objectively be the best duo in the game. Adding a 2 enchanter makes the group so much better.

We have spent nearly 340 pages splitting hairs because the title of the thread challenged us to come up with the best setup for the entirety of eq groupable content. Starting at level one and pushing all the way up to 60 and high end camps.

More or less everyone agrees the starting point is 1 cleric 2 enchanters.

So let’s go through the rest of the options:

Wizard: ports, evacs, nukes and redundant roots. Worst choice by far.

Shaman: malo is useful. Sow is useful while leveling I guess. Redundant heals you won’t need. Redundant slows you won’t need. Buffs you won’t need. Ass-craptic dps with 2x charming dps which hamstrings the best dps shamans do … dots. I would rate them absolutely above wizard because a str buff on the charm pets does add real dps … maybe more than the difference in wizard vs shaman nukes alone.

Druid: snare is useful. Sow is useful while leveling. Ports/evacs. Eventually has POTG which is a massive boon to any 4x caster group. DS helps I guess. Free clicky regrowth of the grove will be nice. Can charm animals so if you level in the right locations this is actually pretty huge. Has backup heals you won’t need but they’re there. When all else fails they nuke decently. Can also give str buff to charm pets.

Enchanter: redundant utility (already have 2) but an extra set of eyes for charm breaks is good. 3rd charm pet for exquisite dps.

Mage: very strong dps. Has malo. Has pet masks eventually. An extra beefy pet dps tank that is risk free and always there. Mod rods, DS, and CoTH. Extemely strong leveling 1-55. Solid, reliable, easy to play addition.

Necro: moderate dps class. Has the full necro utility kit to include backup rez, FD, snare, twitches, root you won’t need, ghetto mez which may help with pet breaks, backup heals. Is fully self sufficient and should never need an ounce of cleric mana to heal. Pet is strong enough easily to offtank if needed. All in all the most versatile option. If played well opens up early he field for all sorts of shenanigans.

Tier 1: ench/mage/necro. Strong case could be made for any of them

Tier 2: druid/shaman. I’ll be honest the more I think about it is probably opt for the druid over the shaman given the constraints of the challenge. Less overlap in redundancy. Extra charm pet depending on location and eventually free group regen and the almighty POTG

Tier 3: poor wizards

Unless you are very specifically hunting Ixblatthefckxitsname or maybe 7/6 WW dragons where the shaman will specifically shine, leave it at home. Even then this content is doable without a shaman.

[Troxx]

Mega yikes

https://c.tenor.com/wrJ_NpV_nFQAAAAd/nervous-shudder.gif

[Troxx]

I’d honestly like to see a group of 4 mages go at it with shovels and earth pets and see how far they can go. My guess is straight to 60 rocking 4 earth pets and just summoning a new one any time one of the pets dies. Certain areas/camps would be tricky or need to be avoided outright due to adds etc but if the mages are smart and focus fire DD dps to burst down one mob at a time I’m pretty sure they could handle pulls of up to 4 at a time with no significant struggles. One earth buddy per mob … all 4 mages kablooie 1 mob at a time with nukes and roll the pets onto the remaining mobs.

Would be pretty efficient leveling if wager.

[PlsNoBan]

I think every single one of us can agree on one thing:

Poor Wizards. Brad really hated them.

[Troxx]

I think there was just massive oversight in the early expansions. Remember that early expansions came out pretty quickly. Later expansions moved aggressively to get things balanced. By later expansions wizards actually became the premier burst dps class with good to great sustained dps possibilities. I forget which expansion I finally stopped playing live during but at that time monks specifically and rogues were far and away in the worst spot.

Live never saw years and years of velious and a few years of kunark before that. Very few people proportionally saw level 60 before Luclin dropped. And only one guild I’m aware of was actually in VP before velious (Afterlife of Mithaniel Marr led by Hobben and Thot - my home server)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shaman: Redundant heals you won’t need. Ass-craptic dps .

Druid: Has backup heals you won’t need but they’re there. When all else fails they nuke decently. DS helps I guess.


This speaks volumes about how badly you want to prove I am wrong (but are still failing).

You have to try and make druid healing sound better when you think it's all redundant anyway. Torpor is the vastly superior heal to Druid healing.

You forget Shamans can nuke too (the nukes are very similar to Druids), but you don't claim they are decent too. Instead Shaman DPS is "Ass-craptic". You also think Druid DS is better DPS than a Shaman Pet.

I am not sure why you bother writing these long summaries when you can't even be honest about them. You're attempts to make Shamans sound worse are painfully clear.

[Troxx]

For both classes the healing is redundant.

Druid nukes are objectively better than shaman nukes but both of them will put out comparatively poor dps.

For non-stacking utility and extras …

Shaman has malo and crap dps

Druid has snare, ports, evacs, animal charms, PoTG, damage shield, harmony … and crap dps

Can the druid also root rot in parallel to the group (if you really want to keep getting stupid lol?). Yep free clicky epic. Free clicky bracers. Practically irresistibly drones line too.

You won’t need either of them at 60 but the more we think about it the better the druid actually looks better simply due to PoTG. Certainly more useful than a crappy shaman pet and poor nuking dps. Druids don’t have canni but they do have extra stacking mana regen between mask of the hunter (lasts for hours) and PoTG … which incidentally gives an extra 24? Mana per tick to the entire group … that’s almost a canni IV passively spread around the group ever 3.5 ticks without any heath loss to heal back up. And it is spread around all 4 casters who use mana … not just one out of 4. A druid sittingdown meditating or standing with self is getting what … 9 more mana per tick passively? Every single tick regardless of spell casting or whatever else is going on.

Point is you’re wrong. At best shaman is tied for 4th place but realistically might just be 5th place out of 6.

[PlsNoBan]

This speaks volumes about how badly you want to prove I am wrong (but are still failing).

You have to try and make druid healing sound better when you think it's all redundant anyway. Torpor is the vastly superior heal to Druid healing.

You forget Shamans can nuke too (the nukes are very similar to Druids), but you don't claim they are decent too. Instead Shaman DPS is "Ass-craptic". You also think Druid DS is better DPS than a Shaman Pet.

I am not sure why you bother writing these long summaries when you can't even be honest about them. You're attempts to make Shamans sound worse are painfully clear.

Sorry druid being better for this group than shaman triggers you so hard. At least you can solo better!

[PlsNoBan]

Know what else druids can do that is often overlooked? They can keep charm pets perma snared which basically reduces risk to fucking zero. A non summoning snared charm pet breaking poses almost no risk whatsoever. This is easily better "safety" than anything a shaman provides for this group makeup.

[Troxx]

You're attempts to make Shamans sound worse are painfully clear.

Oh it’s just funny when we expand the focus of the discussion now that we all agree (you included - your numbers) that shamans are objectively bad dps. Your only counter argument to date to make your case is that utility covers any gap somehow. But when you consider that, you’ve got 2 classes with objectively bad dps but one of them has a whole lot more actually useful stacking utility. Both of them have emergency healing that is more than adequate. Both can root to help cc.

The druid just offers more and if there’s an animal around to charm (there are TONS of locations from level 1-60 this is the case), the druid actually becomes a real dps class to boot. Oh, and the druid can actually get your 4 man group to where they want to hunt!

Isn’t it great when your own arguments get under

https://c.tenor.com/Kh7n_DV59x4AAAAC/your-skin-skin.gif

Does it itch DSM?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I find it interesting you are trying so hard to talk up Druids simply because you cannot say anything good about Shamans, for fear of me being right.

Any class can work fine as the fourth member, Druid and Wizard included. But it is amusing to see you struggle to try and come up with why a Druid would be superior in a general sense.

You can get PoTG and ports from any outside Druid. Nobody has argued against people getting ports/buffs from people outside of the four man group (yet). I am sure that will probably happen now.

Snare isn't necessary. Enchanters solo perfectly fine using Charmed pets without it. When having two Enchanters and a Shaman Charm breaks are not an issue with the safety all three classes provide. I have never seen a group need snare for Charm safety.

Druid charming is restricted to specific zones, so it is going to be less useful overall, and you still have the same problem of having 3x Charmed pets, which is riskier. Just pick a third Enchanter at that point since you can charm everywhere.

Alternatively, you could pick a Shaman to open up camps that charming classes have problems with, while having more safety, great buffs, Malo, and DPS that will not impact your breakpoints.

[Troxx]

I find it interesting you are trying so hard to talk up Druids simply because you cannot say anything good about Shamans.

Does it get under

https://c.tenor.com/Kh7n_DV59x4AAAAC/your-skin-skin.gif

?

As I have stated many times shamans are arguably tied for first as the single standalone best solo class in the game. Top 3 for standard groups. Top 2 for duos. Cleric/ench is best but cut out the enchanter and shaman can duo with pretty much anything to great effect. Sham + any melee (even rog let the sham tank. Sham plus any pet class. Heck even 2 shamans if you split the “extra” duties, rock 2 pets, stagger who casts what dots, etc.

Top tier for raids too.

They simply do not thrive in this theoretical group as well as others.

The fact that pointing this out irritates you so profusely is just the icing on the cake.

https://c.tenor.com/uTD9aWuc3a4AAAAC/whats-the-matter-got-some-sand-in-your-vagina.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Does it get under

As I have stated many times shamans are arguably tied for first as the single standalone best solo class in the game. Top 3 for standard groups. Top 2 for duos. Top tier for raids too.

They simply do not thrive in this theoretical group as well as others.

The fact that pointing this out irritates you so profusely is just the icing on the cake.


I don't know why you think it bothers me, because nobody was seriously arguing for a druid until you got into the trolling phase where you care more about proving me wrong, rather than having a discussion.

I still find it amusing that Shamans are considered at the top of your list for everything except this thread. Interesting...

[cyxthryth]

I find it interesting you are trying so hard to talk up Druids simply because you cannot say anything good about Shamans, for fear of me being right.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of what is interesting, and you seemingly attempting - laughably - to make claims about what others or a particular/specific other can or cannot say, as if you have knowledge over what they can or cannot say and can therefore make objective claims such as that "they cannot say anything good about shamans, for fear of you being right" (which would also seem to imply that you believe you have knowledge of and cann therefore make objective claims about others' or a particular/specific other's fears).

Any class can work fine as the fourth member, Druid and Wizard included. But it is amusing to see you struggle to try and come up with why a Druid would be superior in a general sense.

You have not provided the definition that you are using for "general", so I am not sure what point you think you are making or what fact you are refuting, or what meaning you are attempting to convey by stating "why a Druid would be superior in a general sense".

You can get PoTG and ports from any outside Druid. Nobody has argued against people getting ports/buffs from people outside of the four man group (yet). I am sure that will probably happen now.

We are not here to "argue" - we are here to - civilly - discuss the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" and, unfortunately for you: 4 =/= 4 + X pocket characters, which is a fact that has been previously stated to you multiple times by multiple posters.

Snare isn't necessary. Enchanters solo perfectly fine using Charmed pets without it. When having two Enchanters and a Shaman Charm breaks are not an issue with the safety all three classes provide. I have never seen a group need snare for Charm safety.

The problem is that nobody has stated/claimed/implied that "snare is necessary", and you have simply apparently built a strawman that somebody has stated/claimed/implied such so that you can argue against that strawman. I am not sure why you have - seemingly - done that. Can you please explain for the sake of civil discussion?

Druid charming is restricted to specific zones, so it is going to be less useful overall, and you still have the same problem of having 3x Charmed pets, which is riskier. Just pick a third Enchanter at that point since you can charm everywhere.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of what is going to be "less useful overall"; which is simply your opinion (and which you have provided zero data/evidence or logic or math that supports such opinion nor explains why you hold/"argue" it).

Alternatively, you could pick a Shaman to open up camps that charming classes have problems with.

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD do something and it CERTAINLY doesn't mean it's the "best" thing. Which is what this thread is about.

[PatChapp]

There's a couple spots where ide rather the druid,and a couple where the shaman will do better.
The group of 4 could do gwurms with the shaman tanking,for instance.
I think in chardok I would prefer the druid.
Most seb camps I would take a necro.

Only one I would I would want the mage would be chardok Royals. Mage makes that camp much easier.

[Troxx]

I don't know why you think it bothers me...

And how many posts have you wracked up in this thread alone. You seem to have OCD about always being right. You always have the last post. Anyone disagreeing with you or having the most recent post gets you

https://c.tenor.com/78guAmU9_e4AAAAC/triggered-star-trek.gif

It’s why we’re nearly on page 340. It’s why we will eventually hit page 400 … and then 500. Cause you can’t resist it. You won’t stop. And I’m so fucking amused that I’ll keep prodding your angsty arse along.

https://c.tenor.com/u8jzkOicbsAAAAAC/the-beguiled-colin-farrell.gif

In the meantime I recommend that those collectively following along cast your vote. In this theoretical group we are drafting and considering the full scope of 1-60 play. All camps. All zones. Creature comforts. Mobility. Usefulness not just farming Ixblatthefckzitsname. Which would you rather have.

Druid or shaman.

I’ll go first.

[Troxx]

Druid.

I’ll keep a tally.

(Really I would honestly vote necro then mage then enchanter then druid then shaman then wizard)

But for the very narrow scope of this vote … druid.
Mobility.
Evacs.
Snare.
Harmony.
Animal charm
More useful buffs at the high end.
Comparably bad dps if charming is not an option.
Equally useful other utility and backup emergency heals

Remember guys. DSM has already edumacated us that we are pst the DPS break point with 2 charm pets.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There's a couple spots where ide rather the druid,and a couple where the shaman will do better.
The group of 4 could do gwurms with the shaman tanking,for instance.
I think in chardok I would prefer the druid.
Most seb camps I would take a necro.

Only one I would I would want the mage would be chardok Royals. Mage makes that camp much easier.

Agreed. Different classes shine at specific camps. Thats why I say Enchanter/Mage/Shaman/Necro would be best. You open up all of camp options and still have enough healing and DPS.

To Troxx, you are the only one who is getting triggered. You had to double post to vote on your own poll lol.

[cyxthryth]

Druid or shaman.

My vote would be Druid.

Agreed.

If you were to attempt to utilize the fact that another particular/specific poster seemed to agree with you on one or more particular points to attempt to claim, state, or otherwise imply/reveal/betray/expose (intentionally or otherwise) that you believe that could, would, or did somehow strengthen your argument, that would simply be an example of you claiming your argument is strengthened due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum - like you previously (intentionally or otherwise) attempted to claim by attempting to claim/imply that it was relevant that you and OP both (apparently) believe that "OP's post was/is general", and that that somehow meant there are no goalposts and/or that you have not moved the goalposts, simply due to you (and OP) making and agreeing with that claim. You have - laughably - still not provided the meaning that you were attempting to convey by "general" (or what meaning you believed the OP was attempting to convey causing you to - seemingly - agree with them).

[Troxx]

Druid 2
Shaman 0

Get your votes in!

If DSM doesn’t cast an official vote I’ll presume shaman is his preference and happily cast his vote in absentia for him.

[PlsNoBan]

Druid 2
Shaman 0

Get your votes in!

If DSM doesn’t cast an official vote I’ll presume shaman is his preference and happily cast his vote in absentia for him.

Between those 2 for the group makeup in question I'm going druid for almost every situation. Less utility overlap. Just as much or more safety (heals, snare, root, harmony outdoors, evac). Similar dps without charms. Massively more dps if animals available for charm. Extra mana regen buff for an entirely caster group. It's absolutely a no brainer.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Glad to see people have finally learned something about DPS, which is why they are no longer considering Mage over Shaman.

The Druid argument is very obviously designed to simply be contrarian, but I will count it as progress none the less.

My vote is still OPs choice of Necro/Shaman/Enchanter/Mage for maximum camp options and great heals/DPS/utility.

[Troxx]

Between those 2 for the group makeup in question I'm going druid for almost every situation. Less utility overlap. Just as much or more safety (heals, snare, root, harmony outdoors, evac). Similar dps without charms. Massively more dps if animals available for charm. Extra mana regen buff for an entirely caster group. It's absolutely a no brainer.

Druid 3
Shaman 0

Get your votes in!

If DSM doesn’t cast an official vote I’ll presume shaman is his preference and happily cast his vote in absentia for him.

[Troxx]

Glad to see people have finally learned something about DPS, which is why they are no longer considering Mage over Shaman.

Nah I’m pretty sure everyone but you still agrees Necro, a 3rd ench, mage are still the best choice. Personally considering the whole scope I think I would probably settle on nec >= mage > ench.

This is a vote off for who gets the coveted 4th place award and which class is relegated to be being right beside wizard at the bottom.

My vote is still OPs choice of Necro/Shaman/Enchanter/Mage for maximum camp options and great heals/DPS/utility.

That’s not what we’re voting on.

https://c.tenor.com/DnC3qtozsnYAAAAC/will-arnett-get-in-the-game.gif

Having said that I find it funny that for all your mage hate you still put mage in your ideal 4 man group over the cleric lol. All to rationalize needing the shaman. Cause if you can’t have a cleric shaman is the ideal secondary healer choice?

L
O
Lawl

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As I have stated many times shamans are arguably tied for first as the single standalone best solo class in the game. Top 3 for standard groups. Top 2 for duos. Cleric/ench is best but cut out the enchanter and shaman can duo with pretty much anything to great effect. Sham + any melee (even rog let the sham tank. Sham plus any pet class. Heck even 2 shamans if you split the “extra” duties, rock 2 pets, stagger who casts what dots, etc.

Top tier for raids too.

Troxx seems to think Shamans are pretty good.

OP thinks so too.

You don't have to bend over backwards to try and exclude Shamans just to try and "win" against me.

I don't have any Mage hate. I like Mages. I like Wizards too. But I am also realistic about how the game works.

[Troxx]

So I’m assuming you want to vote for shaman. I’ll add it to the tally. If you change your mind let me know and I’ll happily change it to druid for you.

Druid 3
Shaman 1

Get your votes in!

If DSM won’t cast an official vote so I’ll presume shaman is his preference and have happily cast his vote in absentia for him.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Having said that I find it funny that for all your mage hate you still put mage in your ideal 4 man group over the cleric lol. All to rationalize needing the shaman. Cause if you can’t have a cleric shaman is the ideal secondary healer choice?

I have no Mage hate. I like Mages.

Unlike yourself I can objectively look at the game. I am picking Mage for CoTH support on camps like Royals, not primarily for DPS, which has been your argument.

Shaman is a great healer in small group situations, including 4 man groups. Between the Necro and Shaman there isn't any camp I can think of where CH would be necessary due to Torpor + Necro heal being insufficient after slow.

Enchanter/Shaman/Necro/Mage hits all the breakpoints and has the most camp options. Plus pocket clerics are a common occurence among epxerienced players.

[Troxx]

As I have stated many times shamans are arguably tied for first as the single standalone best solo class in the game. Top 3 for standard groups. Top 2 for duos. Cleric/ench is best but cut out the enchanter and shaman can duo with pretty much anything to great effect. Sham + any melee (even rog let the sham tank. Sham plus any pet class. Heck even 2 shamans if you split the “extra” duties, rock 2 pets, stagger who casts what dots, etc.

Top tier for raids too.

They simply do not thrive in this theoretical group as well as others.

You forgot the relevant part of the quote. Conveniently left out so it fits your agenda? I have come to expect nothing less from ya DSM. Quote the whole me, not excluding the parts you find objectionable.

I have lots of love for shamans. Overpowered class to be honest. But reference the above part I appropriately quoted and made BOLD SO YOU CAN READ IT BETTER

But … when you can’t win the argument ..

If you can’t objectively make the case that starting with the agreed upon best of the best starting three classes in this theoretical 4 man group …

https://c.tenor.com/CObW3z-GeMUAAAAC/moving-goalposts-goalposts.gif

Remove the cleric? What a dumb thing to even consider.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You forgot the relevant part of the quote. Conveniently left out so it fits your agenda? I have come to expect nothing less from ya DSM. Quote the whole me, not excluding the parts you find objectionable.

I have lots of love for shamans. Overpowered class to be honest. But reference the above part I appropriately quoted and made BOLD SO YOU CAN READ IT BETTER

I read that part the first time. It is simply a silly comment based on your description above. Completely contrary to what you wrote above.

It is clear you are only rating Shamans lower here out of some desire to prove me wrong. A Shaman doesn't suddenly lose it's overpowered nature in a group with one more person lol.

[Troxx]

Druid 3
Shaman 1

Get your votes in!

If DSM won’t cast an official vote so I’ll presume shaman is his preference and have happily cast his vote in absentia for him. If he changes is mind I’ll happily change his vote to druid for him.

[Karanis]

18813

18812

[cyxthryth]

Completely contrary to what you wrote

It would - seemingly - appear that you have a certain amount of experience with posting things that are contrary to what you have already posted, and I submit the following - irrefutable - proof/evidence:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM simply contradicted himself afterward by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post claiming Troxx's data was way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stange/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

[Danth]

A Shaman doesn't suddenly lose it's overpowered nature in a group with one more person lol.

Admittedly I haven't read most of the past ~250 pages (wow!), but I've read the past dozen posts or so:

Shaman loses some of its power due to some of its best abilities--haste and slow--being redundant in this group. The shaman adds less to this group than what it can do solo or as the anchor of a typical melee duo. So, here, it's merely a strong character rather than an overpowered (or necessarily the best--I like necromancer better, as said before) addition.

Unlike you I do look down on magicians; I consider them little more than a crappier necromancer suited mainly to bad or low-motivated players. At least a shaman has some remaining advantages of its own right even when its best advantages are nullified. Magician looks at necromancer and feels small and useless. Heck, we have another thread on the forum, right now, where there's considerable agreement as to how bad magicians are in a world where necromancers also exist.

Comparing the shaman to a druid makes for an interesting task. Druids didn't get much thought earlier in the thread but in truth druids are one of the game's most popular enchanter partners so obviously they fit in here. They provide ports so the group doesn't have to constantly pay for them or level their own port-mule, they do what they do without needing 100K+ worth of spells, they have a part-time charm option in some of the best high-level zones, they're a fair choice. Compared to shaman it has less mana regeneration, can't really act as a tank, and gives up malo but it does get a lot in compensation. Both of them allow the group to break up into two powerful duos when desired, and both provide buff and heal back-up in case the cleric doesn't log on (a serious weakness for Team Mage--stuff like that happens in the real world). It's pretty close.

Chalk me up as a tie for now. I'm leaning slightly toward druid due mainly to it being so much cheaper, but it's a weak lean and I don't feel very emphatic about it. I might change my mind later if someone makes a particularly sound argument for one over the other but for a few minutes' thought they look pretty close overall.

Danth

[Troxx]

Thanks for the input Danth.

Druid 3
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)

Get your votes in!

As DSM won’t cast an official vote, I’ll presume shaman is his preference and have cast his vote in absentia for him. If he changes is mind I’ll happily change his vote to druid.

[Gloomlord]

I vote druid for reasons I stated long ago in this thread.

Also: did DSM also suggest a pocket druid just before?

What is wrong with this lunatic?!

[PlsNoBan]

What is wrong with this lunatic?!

I've been trying to figure that out for a long time now. The way I see it is basically there's a couple options.

A: Drugs. Lots and lots and lots of drugs.
B: Actual mental illness/autism of some kind
C: An extremely unintelligent nerd with an obsession for everquest shamans

All are equally possible I think. It's tough to nail down where the truth lies.

[Troxx]

I vote druid for reasons I stated long ago in this thread.

Also: did DSM also suggest a pocket druid just before?

What is wrong with this lunatic?!

Druid 4
Shaman 1
Tie 1 (with druid lean)

Get your votes in!

As DSM won’t cast an official vote, I’ll presume shaman is his preference and have cast his vote in absentia for him. If he changes is mind I’ll happily change his vote to druid.

I've been trying to figure that out for a long time now. The way I see it is basically there's a couple options.

A: Drugs. Lots and lots and lots of drugs.
B: Actual mental illness/autism of some kind
C: An extremely unintelligent nerd with an obsession for everquest shamans

All are equally possible I think. It's tough to nail down where the truth lies.

Perhaps an eclectic mix of A, B and C?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Admittedly I haven't read most of the past ~250 pages (wow!), but I've read the past dozen posts or so:

Shaman loses some of its power due to some of its best abilities--haste and slow--being redundant in this group. The shaman adds less to this group than what it can do solo or as the anchor of a typical melee duo. So, here, it's merely a strong character rather than an overpowered (or necessarily the best--I like necromancer better, as said before) addition.

Unlike you I do look down on magicians; I consider them little more than a crappier necromancer suited mainly to bad or low-motivated players. At least a shaman has some remaining advantages of its own right even when its best advantages are nullified. Magician looks at necromancer and feels small and useless. Heck, we have another thread on the forum, right now, where there's considerable agreement as to how bad magicians are in a world where necromancers also exist.

Comparing the shaman to a druid makes for an interesting task. Druids didn't get much thought earlier in the thread but in truth druids are one of the game's most popular enchanter partners so obviously they fit in here. They provide ports so the group doesn't have to constantly pay for them or level their own port-mule, they do what they do without needing 100K+ worth of spells, they have a part-time charm option in some of the best high-level zones, they're a fair choice. Compared to shaman it has less mana regeneration, can't really act as a tank, and gives up malo but it does get a lot in compensation. Both of them allow the group to break up into two powerful duos when desired, and both provide buff and heal back-up in case the cleric doesn't log on (a serious weakness for Team Mage--stuff like that happens in the real world). It's pretty close.

Chalk me up as a tie for now. I'm leaning slightly toward druid due mainly to it being so much cheaper, but it's a weak lean and I don't feel very emphatic about it. I might change my mind later if someone makes a particularly sound argument for one over the other but for a few minutes' thought they look pretty close overall.

Danth

Of course. Any fourth member can bring interesting options to a group.

In your example where the groups can break up into two powerful duos, the Shaman clearly wins. You really don't see Druid/X duos as a popular choice. Not to say you can't do it, but Shaman is a much more popular duo choice.

Druids basically have the same problem as all of the teleporting classes (Mage/Druid/Wizard). Their toolkits simply aren't powerful enough in the endgame to justify them, and most people don't bother with evac on P99 due to the ease of corpse recovery.

I personally don't consider spell price to be a huge factor when dealing with the scenario of a four man group leveling up to 60 and then farming high level gear. You will get the necessary platinum/gear in that kind of a composition. Enchanters also spend a decent chunk of money on their spells.

If you feel you are highly unlikely to finish the leveling process, then the group composition honestly doesn't matter that much. Any four man group can level up to the 50s really easily. At that point you win simply by having four players.

I've been trying to figure that out for a long time now. The way I see it is basically there's a couple options.

A: Drugs. Lots and lots and lots of drugs.
B: Actual mental illness/autism of some kind
C: An extremely unintelligent nerd with an obsession for everquest shamans

All are equally possible I think. It's tough to nail down where the truth lies.

There is nothing wrong with me. You are simply a troll that prefers to troll over having a conversation, and the hundreds of troll posts prove it.

[PlsNoBan]

Druids basically have the same problem as all of the teleporting classes (Mage/Druid/Wizard). Their toolkits simply aren't powerful enough in the endgame to justify them

Did DSM just call mages a teleporting class? I was joking earlier when I asked if he even played this game. Now I'm not so sure?

[Danth]

You really don't see Druid/X duos as a popular choice. Not to say you can't do it, but Shaman is a much more popular duo choice.

Has this changed of late? I admittedly have not been very active on P99 this year, but when I was most active druid/enchanter was an extremely popular duo, probably second for enchanter after cleric. Shaman/enchanter was extremely rare. Popular tactics do change over time on P99 so maybe it's different now?

[PlsNoBan]

Has this changed of late? I admittedly have not been very active on P99 this year, but when I was most active druid/enchanter was an extremely popular duo, probably second for enchanter after cleric. Popular tactics do change over time on P99 so maybe it's different now?

Druid is a popular choice for duo with enc. It just doesn't fit DSM's narrative so he says it isn't. Most enchanters don't want their charms attack speed slowed when their duo partner heals it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Has this changed of late? I admittedly have not been very active on P99 this year, but when I was most active druid/enchanter was an extremely popular duo, probably second for enchanter after cleric. Shaman/enchanter was extremely rare. Popular tactics do change over time on P99 so maybe it's different now?

I've never seen it personally, but that doesn't mean it isn't the case. I am just saying Shaman/Enchanter is better.

[cd288]

If you write 1,100 posts in a single thread because you need to try over and over to have the last word there might be something wrong

[PlsNoBan]

If you write 1,100 posts in a single thread because you need to try over and over to have the last word there might be something wrong

Nope he's a perfectly sane mentally stable genius. Nothing wrong here. Now brb I gotta go find a mage to port me.

[Troxx]

How have you never seen it? Enchanter/druid is extremely capable. Snare mob. Charm it. Snare target. Have them fight. Toss a cheap haste on pet and don’t bother healing it. Druid kills it it off when low if ench doesn’t have a new pet immediately lined up and keep chugging along. Grab new pet and plow along.

Indoors or out snare mitigates most if not all the risk of charm breaks. If charm does break … it and the mob are snared.

Why waste mana healing the pet when you can use the mana to kill the old pet when it’s low and just get a new one.

Heck you can do something comparable with ench/paladin.

Paladin babysits the enchanter doing their thing. Keeps target rooted. Stuns charm on break and emergency heals the ench of ever needed. When pet is very low health, break charm and have paladin melee it down while ench grabs a new pet.

Duo with an enchanter I have crawled all over seb playing my druid, enchanter, cleric and shaman. NG to disco to chef. If someone could open doors you can do this with any of the 4 above down in crypt as well. If trying to duo deeper towards king there’s a strong cast to be made for druid as runners down there are deadly and once it’s snared … your mob ain’t going anywhere.

Cleric chealing pet works out best.
Druid comes in a close second dump/kill pet when low. Extra mana to ench with PoTG.
Paladin arguably could come in third though I imagine if a shaman chose to play this way they’d be just as capable (albeit without a fast stun to cast)

When I do this with shaman I usually end up playing slower/buffer, use my own pet and cast dots while torporing pet. It works just dandy but results in a slower kill rate thanks to torpor snare/slow component. And it at 1200 (rarely as much as 1500 with a lucky server tick) per heal … well that’s 4-5 torpor casts to “complete heal” a pet slowly over 4-5x casts lasting 24-30 seconds heal over time time each to get the pet healed.

That’s a lot of time with a slowed/gimped ench pet.

If you can’t complete heal it, much more efficient to kill off the old pet and grab a new charm.

[PlsNoBan]

I can't stop laughing about calling mage a port class lol. As if we needed any more proof that DSM has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. What the fuck kind of EQ player makes that mistake?

https://i.imgur.com/ydEPjcn.gif

[Danth]

Druid is a popular choice for duo with enc. It just doesn't fit DSM's narrative so he says it isn't.

Nah, I try to give folks a benefit of the doubt, Shamwowi included. He says it that by whatever coincidence he hasn't really run into that duo much, I've no problem taking him at his word on it. He didn't call me a liar or anything, just said he hasn't seen it, fair enough. There's stuff I haven't seen much of, either, that other folks talk of as common.

If you can’t complete heal it, much more efficient to kill off the old pet and grab a new charm.

Some of the ench's I know with druid or shaman partners, if they weren't trying to kill for EXP, they'd heal mostly by dropping combat and memblurring the pet so it'd out-of-combat heal.

Danth

[Troxx]

Some of the ench's I know with druid or shaman partners, if they weren't trying to kill for EXP, they'd heal mostly by dropping combat and memblurring the pet so it'd out-of-combat heal.

Danth

Very true. Especially if you are tossing weapons and tola robe on a pet you like and want to keep. If only killing a few loot phs/named and not trying to maximize xp - this works well.

It takes a fair bit of time away from productively killing but if you don’t need the xp it’s a wash.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nah, I try to give folks a benefit of the doubt, Shamwowi included. He says it that by whatever coincidence he hasn't really run into that duo much, I've no problem taking him at his word on it. He didn't call me a liar or anything, just said he hasn't seen it, fair enough. There's stuff I haven't seen much of, either, that other folks talk of as common.



Some of the ench's I know with druid or shaman partners, if they weren't trying to kill for EXP, they'd heal mostly by dropping combat and memblurring the pet so it'd out-of-combat heal.

Danth

Exactly. You don't need CH to heal your charmed pets. I have been in plenty of groups that had Enchanters and no Clerics. It's really not a hard requirement.

I can't stop laughing about calling mage a port class lol. As if we needed any more proof that DSM has absolutely no idea what he's talking about. What the fuck kind of EQ player makes that mistake?


Mage is a teleport class. Did you forget about CoTH, their most important spell? They are the only other class besides Druids and Wizards who can teleport a living player. You are trying to "gotcha" me by assuming I mean "porting" class, who can teleport you to different zones.

[PlsNoBan]

Mage is a teleport class. Did you forget about CoTH, their most important spell? They are the only other class besides Druids and Wizards who can teleport a living player.

Oh my fucking god

https://i.imgur.com/QPdbfS0.gif

Shamans have gate. Shamans teleport class confirmed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh my fucking god

Shamans have gate. Shamans teleport class confirmed.

This is the worst troll you have attempted yet. Gate is self teleport. CoTH teleports other players. They are 100% different.

[PlsNoBan]

Do we have any Dial-a-Port representatives here? How many mages you guys got? Being that they're a teleport class and all

[Troxx]

My warrior has an OT hammer, WC cap and thurg pots.

Warrior = teleport class?!

https://c.tenor.com/R2BXnIPdLjQAAAAC/kevin-omg.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Do we have any Dial-a-Port representatives here? How many mages you guys got? Being that they're a teleport class and all

Yikes. You are really embarrassed you forgot about CoTH.

[PlsNoBan]

My warrior has an OT hammer, WC cap and thurg pots.

Warrior = teleport class?!

https://c.tenor.com/R2BXnIPdLjQAAAAC/kevin-omg.gif

Bro this is the funniest shit DSM has done so far. Legit made me laugh IRL

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yikes. You are really embarrassed you forgot about CoTH.

[PlsNoBan]

Yes I'm very very embarrassed that I forgot mages have coth and thus they are a "teleport class". You got me DSM! You really caught me with my pants down on this one!

https://i.imgur.com/HdUFXt5.gif

[Troxx]

So … DSM in summary has thusly asserted:

Shamans can dps like mages? (They can’t)
Groups will want shamans root rotting 4-5 adds parallel to the group (they won’t)
4 man BOTB groups get to have pocket clerics (wtf?)
Warriors solo better than enchanters after enchanters get charm (they don’t)
Mages are teleporting classes (they are not)

Have I left something else out?

I swear if I had posted on the forums 2 months ago there was someone out there on these forums who is level 60, in one of the premier raiding guilds and would say such things I would have been tarred and feathered.

https://c.tenor.com/KZSCnVzDgKcAAAAM/controlling-laugh-laughing.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes I'm very very embarrassed that I forgot mages have coth and thus they are a "teleport class". You got me DSM! You really caught me with my pants down on this one!

This is really a bad troll. Which classes can teleport other living players?

Answer: Mages, Wizards, and Druids.

Nobody said Mages can teleport you to West Commons.

Your desperation to try and score points is painfully obvious, and you are still failing.

You simply forgot CoTH existed, and are trying to back out of it.

[Troxx]

Anyone who receives a duel request from another player who has an OT hammer is a porting class? They facilitate the porting of another character to a desired destination.

I’m going to join DAP on my level 30 Ranger and offer my services at KC zone line for a nominal fee!

#DSM logic

https://c.tenor.com/to_3BoEExkQAAAAd/haha-ha.gif

[PlsNoBan]

LOL he's trying to dismiss me as a troll cause he said mages are a teleport class and I called him out for saying something retarded. This might be my favorite part of this thread so far lol.

Seriously does anyone in <Vanquish> know what's going on here? This is getting really embarrassing lol. Imagine being this clueless about everquest and posting bad/wrong information 1100+ times while representing one of the top raid guilds on the server.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Anyone who receives a duel request from another player who has an OT hammer is a porting class? They facilitate the porting of another character to a desired destination.

I’m going to join DAP on my level 30 Ranger and offer my services at KC zone line for a nominal fee!

This is such a bad strawman. OT Hammer doesn't teleport other players.

Why do you think you aren't embarrassing yourself here? I really don't understand how you think a non-sequitur strawman looks smart.

Mages can factually teleport other players via CoTH.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/TqFRlOFQpM8AAAAC/laugh-lol.gif

Summoning within a zone =/= teleporting. That’s like saying clerics and necros can teleport also by summoning your ass to your corpse .. whether or not you’re in the same zone.

You are a truly weird fella brosef

I swear I couldn’t even can’t even make this shit up.



Mages can factually teleport other players via CoTH.

And my warrior can factually allow for teleportation to OT of others by accepting a duel. And my shaman can FACTUALLY teleport someone by giving them a potion.

Actual, factual porters: druid and wiz

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/fhUIvde.png

Anyone see the word "teleport" anywhere?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://c.tenor.com/TqFRlOFQpM8AAAAC/laugh-lol.gif

Summoning within a zone =/= teleporting

You are a truly weird fella brosef

Moving another player that isn't yourself from point A to point B via a spell (without the player being dead) is a teleport.

I am sorry you don't know what teleporting means. It doesn't require you to go to different zones.

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/DMsfqeK.png

Oh here it is!

[Troxx]

ANY CLASS can FACTUALLY be a porter by giving someone a WC cap.

ANYONE can FACTUALLY port someone to bind by killing them in a duel.

14 out of 14 classes are situational teleporters following DSM logic

https://c.tenor.com/K9H6ltNcrhoAAAAC/lol-laughing.gif

[PlsNoBan]

God damn if I was an officer/leader in VQ I would be so fucking embarrassed by this thread lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

ANY CLASS can FACTUALLY be a porter by giving someone a WC cap.

ANYONE can FACTUALLY port someone to bind by killing them in a duel.

14 out of 14 classes are situational teleporters following DSM logic


This is the worst strawman I have ever seen. Please keep doing it, because it just makes you look like a fool.

None of those things teleport other players.

If you are going to create a strawman, don't do it in such a poor way. You just get the worst of both worlds.

[PlsNoBan]

This is the worst strawman I have ever seen. Please keep doing it, because it just makes you look like a fool.

None of those things teleport other players.

If you are going to create a strawman, don't do it in such a poor way. You just get the worst of both worlds.

This guy really thinks WE are the ones that look like a fool. This is comedic gold man

https://i.imgur.com/33l3GE6.gif

[Gloomlord]

DSM, despite making *THIS* many hiccups, is still persisting?

He's made a complete embarrassment of himself now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This guy really thinks WE are the ones that look like a fool. This is comedic gold man


It is comedic gold. You guys are trying to troll and failing utterly at it.

Your desire to "win" against me has gotten so bad that you think a non-sequitur straw man such as comparing Gate to CoTH is proving a point.

A non-sequitur strawman doesn't hurt the person you are attacking silly.

I could have not said anything to make yourself look even worse, but I think it is a little too cruel to do so.

I wouldn't advise continuing to post it. Either way works for me, since it is only hurting yourself.

[PlsNoBan]

Is <Dial a Mage> an available guild name? Asking for a friend

[Gloomlord]

Nothing but useless "rage posts", DSM.

You compared a summon ability that mages get in their mid 50's to two classes which can teleport people across the entire world?

Mages aren't underpowered either, you imbecile. Stop spreading this bullshit already.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nothing but useless "rage posts", DSM.

You compared a summon ability that mages get in their mid 50's to two classes which can teleport people across the entire world?

Mages aren't underpowered either, you imbecile. Stop spreading this bullshit already.

If a Druid casts the Commons teleport within West Commons, is the spell no longer considered a teleport because you didn't zone? By your logic, a teleport spell is only considered such if you go between zones. What a nonsense argument.

I am being serious when I say you shouldn't keep posting such a bad strawman. It's really bad, and makes you look very silly.

[PlsNoBan]

If a Druid casts the Commons teleport within West Commons, is the spell no longer considered a teleport?

https://media2.giphy.com/media/SYdXvXt9PHIzF4LSqS/200.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/SYdXvXt9PHIzF4LSqS/200.gif

It is not at all. Again, by your logic a teleport spell only counts as one if you go between zones. That means you believe you aren't teleporting if you Evac or cast the teleport spell in the same zone.

It's such an illogical idea. I am sorry you are this desperate.

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/fY7A0wa.png

https://i.imgur.com/f8FYJO6.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It is indeed. You are again using silly semantics to try and win.

If you think the word "summon" changes the actual result of the spell, you are mistaken.

[PlsNoBan]

It is indeed. You are again using silly semantics to try and win.

If you think the word "summon" changes the actual result of the spell, you are mistaken.

https://i.imgur.com/APSI91u.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/APSI91u.gif

Indeed. I really wouldn't advise continuing to embarrass yourself by thinking CoTH isn't a teleport. It is honestly your worst attempt yet at a "gotcha".

[Ripqozko]

Indeed. I really wouldn't advise continuing to embarrass yourself by thinking CoTH isn't a teleport. It is honestly your worst attempt yet at a "gotcha".

Mega yikes

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mega yikes

Indeed. Thinking CoTH isn't a teleport is Mega Yikes.

[PlsNoBan]

Indeed. I really wouldn't advise continuing to embarrass yourself by thinking CoTH isn't a teleport. It is honestly your worst attempt yet at a "gotcha".

Before you hit "Submit Reply" and say something dumb for the 1,123rd time. Please think of your guildies. They don't deserve to be represented like this. Go find a mage to teleport you somewhere and solo some mobs.

[Ripqozko]

Indeed. Thinking CoTH isn't a teleport is Mega Yikes.

Yikes

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Before you hit "Submit Reply" and say something dumb for the 1,123rd time. Please think of your guildies. They don't deserve to be represented like this. Go find a mage to teleport you somewhere and solo some mobs.

Yup, you realized your troll failed, and now you go back to try and silence me by any means possible.

Why do you think trolling works?

[Gloomlord]

https://www.geekalerts.com/u/picard-facepalm.jpg

[PlsNoBan]

Yup, you realized your troll failed, and now you go back to try and silence me by any means possible.

Yup I definitely failed. I was totally wrong about everything DSM. Warriors solo better than enchanters. Mages are a teleport class. Shamans are a better group dps class than mages. Root rotting adds in an xp group makes sense and isn't retarded at all.

You win. I was wrong about everything. Please go find a mage to teleport you somewhere and kill some mobs. It's a better use of your time than posting here. You've clearly won the intellectual arguments here. All I can do is troll cause I clearly lost.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yup I definitely failed. I was totally wrong about everything DSM. Warriors solo better than enchanters. Mages are a teleport class. Shamans are a better group dps class than mages. Root rotting adds in an xp group makes sense and isn't retarded at all.

You win. I was wrong about everything. Please go find a mage to teleport you somewhere and kill some mobs. It's a better use of your time than posting here. You've clearly won the intellectual arguments here. All I can do is troll cause I clearly lost.

Nice summation of a good portion of your strawmen.

You can stop trolling at any time. I don't know why you feel compelled to keep failing at trolling here.

[cyxthryth]

silence me

Hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

Nice summation of a good portion of your strawmen.

You can stop trolling at any time. I don't know why you feel compelled to keep failing at trolling here.

Trolls can't help themselves DSM. They keep posting and can't stop. It takes a real "non troll" to stop posting. Please show us all how non trolly you are. Find a mage and ask him for a teleport. See where it takes ya. Find some mobs to root rot. Have a grand ole time! Nobody will think you're a troll then!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Trolls can't help themselves DSM. They keep posting and can't stop. It takes a real "non troll" to stop posting. Please show us all how non trolly you are. Find a mage and ask him for a teleport. See where it takes ya. Find some mobs to root rot. Have a grand ole time! Nobody will think you're a troll then!

You have admitted to trolling and have literally hundreds of just insult/meme/troll posts.

I am not sure why you want to troll and be taken seriously simultaneously.

You get the worst of both worlds. You look foolish, and people don't know when you are being serious.

Just stop trolling and/or posting if you think I am incorrect. There is nothing wrong with that.

[PlsNoBan]

You have admitted to trolling and have literally hundreds of just insult/meme/troll posts.

I am not sure why you want to troll and be taken seriously simultaneously.

You get the worst of both worlds. You look foolish, and people don't know when you are being serious.

Just stop trolling and/or posting if you think I am incorrect. There is nothing wrong with that.

You got me DSM! I admitted you were right about everything! I'm just a big fat smelly troll that posts nonsense trolly things! You're just feeding me by responding and you can't stop responding! You're playing right into my hand over and over and over and over! If you truly want to "win" I suggest you stop posting and feeding the trolls. Find a mage to port you somewhere and go play the game. Get off the forums. Only trolls here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You got me DSM! I admitted you were right about everything! I'm just a big fat smelly troll that posts nonsense trolly things! You're just feeding me by responding and you can't stop responding! You're playing right into my hand over and over and over and over! If you truly want to "win" I suggest you stop posting and feeding the trolls. Find a mage to port you somewhere and go play the game. Get off the forums. Only trolls here.

Nah. The trolls win when they silence other people. You don't get to win simply by trolling.

Prove your points with evidence, or stop trolling.

[cyxthryth]

Nah. The trolls win when they silence other people. You don't get to win simply by trolling.

Prove your points with evidence, or stop trolling.

Let's review what you have "proven" with evidence, shall we? :)


DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM simply contradicted himself afterward by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post claiming Troxx's data was way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stange/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they often change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

Prove your points with evidence, or stop trolling.

What if I do neither? What if I keep trolling forever? You going to just keep responding? I fail to see how that's a win for you. You just keep getting trolled by trolls over and over and you think that's a win?

Any luck finding that mage port yet?

[Gloomlord]

So he claims you to be a troll, yet he keeps responding to you. Why? "Because trolls win if they silence people".

You know, he may have had a point there...if it weren't for 10 other people calling him out on his stupidity.

I know! I know! "Argumentum Ad Populum" right?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What if I do neither? What if I keep trolling forever? You going to just keep responding? I fail to see how that's a win for you. You just keep getting trolled by trolls over and over and you think that's a win?

Any luck finding that mage port yet?

You will just keep showing you are a troll if you keep trolling. That only discredits yourself, and makes it harder for you to be taken seriously in a discussion.

So it is your choice as to whether you want to be viewed as a troll here or not.

You are the one that looks bad. I am not forcing you to be a troll in this thread.

[cyxthryth]

So he claims you to be a troll, yet he keeps responding to you. Why? "Because trolls win if they silence people".

You know, he may have had a point there...if it weren't for 10 other people calling him out on his stupidity.

I know! I know! "Argumentum Ad Populum" right?

Curiously, DSM claims I too am a troll, yet does not reply - directly - to me for some reason hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

It's fucking comical to me that he thinks we're all trolls and the best way for him to "win" is to keep falling for our troll posts over and over. It's the most hilariously backwards thing I've ever heard. If someone is REALLY trolling you there's only 2 possible ways to win. Either you troll them back harder or you disengage and don't respond to them. We've established DSM has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to everquest (calling mages a teleport class, saying warriors solo better than enchanters.etc.etc) but now it almost seems like he doesn't understand the entire internet. Falling for trolls isn't how you beat trolls. This shit is internet 101.

[cyxthryth]

You will just keep showing you are a troll if you keep trolling. That only discredits yourself, and makes it harder for you to be taken seriously in a discussion.

So it is your choice as to whether you want to be viewed as a troll here or not.

You are the one that looks bad. I am not forcing you to be a troll in this thread.

You cannot force another player to do anything and have provided zero evidence to support that you know and can therefore make objective claims about what they will or will not do.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's fucking comical to me that he thinks we're all trolls and the best way for him to "win" is to keep falling for our troll posts over and over. It's the most hilariously backwards thing I've ever heard. If someone is REALLY trolling you there's only 2 possible ways to win. Either you troll them back harder or you disengage and don't respond to them. We've established DSM has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to everquest (calling mages a teleport class, saying warriors solo better than enchanters.etc.etc) but now it almost seems like he doesn't understand the entire internet. Falling for trolls isn't how you beat trolls.

You must really feel comfortable in all of the strawmen you created. You don't have to think at all.

It is sad you think the only way to have a discussion is to troll people into silence.

You haven't disproven my points yet. I am not here to "win". I am here to ensure the facts are available to the community, and they don't get drowned out by trolls.

[cyxthryth]

You must really feel comfortable in all of the strawmen you created. You don't have to think at all.

It is sad you think the only way to have a discussion is to troll people into silence.

You haven't disproven my points yet. I am not here to "win". I am here to ensure the facts are available to the community, and they don't get drowned out by trolls.

What points/stance/belief/"argument" do you currently hold/"argue"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

You must really feel comfortable in all of the strawmen you created. You don't have to think at all.

It is sad you think the only way to have a discussion is to troll people into silence.

You haven't disproven my points yet. I am not here to "win". I am here to ensure the facts are available to the community, and they don't get drowned out by trolls.

When is the last time you posted any facts for the community? 99.9% of your posts are responses to trolls with no facts for anyone. If I'm really a troll then I'm 100% winning. You are responding to my bait almost every time I put it out. How is responding to me trolling you "ensuring facts are available to the community" exactly?

https://i.imgur.com/CRYvZMI.gif

[Gloomlord]

It's fucking comical to me that he thinks we're all trolls and the best way for him to "win" is to keep falling for our troll posts over and over. It's the most hilariously backwards thing I've ever heard. If someone is REALLY trolling you there's only 2 possible ways to win. Either you troll them back harder or you disengage and don't respond to them. We've established DSM has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to everquest (calling mages a teleport class, saying warriors solo better than enchanters.etc.etc) but now it almost seems like he doesn't understand the entire internet. Falling for trolls isn't how you beat trolls. This shit is internet 101.

I argued with shills on the WoW forums who did indeed troll people to silence them. So, I can see where that comment might have merit.

The fact is, though: we're talking about a game that no longer has a sociopathic corporation watching over it. This man is just arguing for the sake of claiming that shamans are better than mages...even in a group DPS situation.

There's nothing at stake here other than one man having pride for something so insanely illogical.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

When is the last time you posted any facts for the community? 99.9% of your posts are responses to trolls with no facts for anyone. If I'm really a troll then I'm 100% winning. You are responding to my bait almost every time I put it out. How is responding to me trolling you "ensuring facts are available to the community" exactly?


You are 100% losing. You just look like a fool, and nobody will bother to listen to you. I repost the current state of the argument. Then you just troll it because you haven't been able to disprove anything in it.

It must be easy to just try silencing people.

[cyxthryth]

You are 100% losing. You just look like a fool, and nobody will bother to listen to you. I repost the current state of the argument. Then you just troll it because you haven't been able to disprove anything in it.

It must be easy to just try silencing people.

You have provided zero evidence to support the Quoted claims, therefore, they are simply unsubstantiated (and probably false).

[PlsNoBan]

You are 100% losing. You just look like a fool, and nobody will bother to listen to you. I repost the current state of the argument. Then you just troll it because you haven't been able to disprove anything in it.

It must be easy to just try silencing people.

Besides responding to my troll bait. What did the above post accomplish? What facts were presented to the community?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Besides responding to my troll bait. What did the above post accomplish? What facts were presented to the community?

It shows you are a troll, and people should be wary about what you post.

[Gloomlord]

You are 100% losing. You just look like a fool, and nobody will bother to listen to you. I repost the current state of the argument. Then you just troll it because you haven't been able to disprove anything in it.

It must be easy to just try silencing people.

Alright, I call your bluff:

If you're not trolling us, why are you even responding anymore?

What's the point of this, DSM?

[cyxthryth]

It shows you are a troll, and people should be wary about what you post.

That is simply an example of you sharing that it is your opinion that another person/poster is a "troll" (which you have not defined); which is simply your opinion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Alright, I call your bluff:

If you're not trolling us, why are you even responding anymore?

What's the point of this, DSM?

I told you. I am keeping the relevant facts here for people to read. If you honestly don't want to be a troll, respond to my post with logic and evidence, or simply stop posting if you disagree.

I am not sure why basic math and evidence bothers you so much.

You can even post a disagreement message and stop.

I am not sure why you think drowning out posts you dislike with trolling is going to work.

[PlsNoBan]

It shows you are a troll, and people should be wary about what you post.

https://i.imgur.com/rIWZk1F.gif

[cyxthryth]

I am keeping the relevant facts here for people to read

Which "relevant facts" might those be - given the below?

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Gloomlord]

I told you. I am keeping the relevant facts here for people to read. If you honestly don't want to be a troll, respond to my post with logic and evidence, or simply stop posting if you disagree.

I am not sure why basic math and evidence bothers you so much.

You can even post a disagreement message and stop.

I am not sure why you think drowning out posts you dislike is going to work.

So, I try to reason with you just a touch, then you respond in the same incendiary manner about my lack of understanding about "basic math and evidence"?

We've told you that solo DPS parsing means nothing in a group. That was irrelevant, for the last time. That is a logical retort to your claim.

How are you not trolling for saying it is relevant?

And why should I stop responding? I'm on the verge of leaving from frustration already, but why is it so important you get the last word?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So, I try to reason with you just a touch, then you respond in the same incendiary manner about my lack of understanding about "basic math and evidence"?

We've told you that solo DPS parsing means nothing in a group. That was irrelevant, for the last time. That is a logical retort to your claim.

How are you not trolling for saying it is relevant?

And why should I stop responding? I'm on the verge of leaving from frustration already, but why is it so important you get the last word?

Since you haven't provided any evidence to discredit my evidence, you are in the losing position here.

You don't get to just say "your data is invalid" to win the argument.

You really don't understand that asking me to prove a negative is incorrect. You need to prove my evidence is invalid. I will happily admit I am wrong if you can.

[cyxthryth]

And I keep telling you that it is relevant. Since you haven't provided any evidence to discredit my evidence, you are in the losing position here.

You don't get to just say "your data is invalid" to win the argument.

What reason(s) do you believe the data you have provided is relevant to this discussion? You have provided zero evidence to support the claim that your data is relevant, therefore, it is simply an unsubstantiated claim (and probably false). You have no authority over other posters with which you may tell them what they do, or do not, get to say. You may choose to type whatever you wish and feel however you feel about it, you will simply not change these irrefutable facts - which cannot be refuted, just like the various irrefutable facts below:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Gloomlord]

Stop lying!

STOP!

"I will happily admit I am wrong if you can." -- complete and utter lie.

Noone, not even you, is believing that you're going to be "happy" about swallowing your pride here. Not even a saint would be "happy" to do that. And you especially, after keeping this conversation going for so long, would not be "happy" about it.

How are you not trolling by saying that?

You can't get out of this one.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Stop lying!

STOP!

"I will happily admit I am wrong if you can." -- complete and utter lie.

Noone, not even you, is believing that you're going to be "happy" about swallowing your pride here. Not even a saint would be "happy" to do that. And you especially, after keeping this conversation going for so long, would not be "happy" about it.

How are you not trolling by saying that?

You can't get out of this one.

The only person who is lying is yourself.

You keep lying to yourself that you have somehow shown my evidence is invalid.

You haven't shown one shred of evidence to invalidate what I have said.

You are not the arbiter of this thread, who gets to decide who's data is relevant and who's isn't.

If you want to claim my data is invalid, YOU need to prove it.

I will happily admit I am wrong, and have done so before on this forum. But you do not get to troll your way to victory by simply claiming my data is invalid.

[cyxthryth]

If you want to claim my data is invalid, YOU need to prove it.

I will happily admit I am wrong

Oh that's easy:

"Solo" =/= "Best 4 person all caster/priest group"
"Correct"=/= "Relevant"
4 =/=5

This really isn't hard hehe. :) Are you ready to happily admit that you were wrong now?

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[Gloomlord]

The only person who is lying is yourself.

You keep lying to yourself that you have somehow shown my evidence is invalid.

You haven't shown one shred of evidence to invalidate what I have said.

You are not the arbiter of this thread, who gets to decide who's data is relevant and who's isn't.

If you want to claim my data is invalid, YOU need to prove it.

I will happily admit I am wrong, and have done so before on this forum. But you do not get to troll your way to victory by simply claiming my data is invalid.

Look at how many posts you've made.

How would you be happy to admit you've lost the argument?

How is that not a blatant lie?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Look at how many posts you've made.

How would you be happy to admit you've lost the argument?

How is that not a blatant lie?

You have no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Just like you have no evidence to disprove my current data.

This is your problem. You simply think you can troll people into silence when they disagree with you.

If you want to prove me wrong, do it the right way. Show my data is invalid. Prove your claim.

I won't be able to back out of hard data showing my argument is incorrect.

[cyxthryth]

If you want to prove me wrong, do it the right way. Show my data is invalid. I won't be able to back out of hard data showing my argument is incorrect.

Oh that's easy:

"Solo" =/= "Best 4 person all caster/priest group"
"Correct"=/= "Relevant"
4 =/=5

This really isn't hard hehe. :) Are you ready to happily admit that you were wrong now?

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

I did a very important test and I have data for the community to review:

https://i.imgur.com/cskk3aC.png

https://i.imgur.com/eISPUjw.gif

[Gloomlord]

You have no evidence to suggest otherwise.

Just like you have no evidence to disprove my current data.

This is your problem. You simply think you can troll people into silence when they disagree with you.

If you want to prove me wrong, do it the right way. Show my data is invalid. Prove your claim.

I won't be able to back out of hard data showing my argument is incorrect.

Notice how you completely ignored my comments about your supposed willingness to be "happy" about losing the argument?

You know why I'm pointing that out? Because it's a sign you are a dishonest, incendiary troll.

I'm not paying attention to your "data" arguments, since we've gone out of our way to show it, which you disregarded time and time again.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Notice how you completely ignored my comments about your supposed willingness to be "happy" about losing the argument?

You know why I'm pointing that out? Because it's a sign you are a dishonest, incendiary troll.

I'm not paying attention to your "data" arguments, since we've gone out of our way to show it, which you disregarded time and time again.

I find it amazing that you think the only person who spent time gathering data and evidence is yourself.

It is astounding arrogance that you think you are the one being wronged here.

You are just dismissing all of my data with no evidence, and think you spend more time providing data and evidence.

It is really a warped view of the conversation.

I did a very important test and I have data for the community to review:


Yup, Nadoom also said Mages can teleport lol. I am sorry you think that word only means "Mage/Wizard zone teleport spells".

Thanks for proving yourself wrong.

[Gloomlord]

I did a very important test and I have data for the community to review:

https://i.imgur.com/cskk3aC.png

https://i.imgur.com/eISPUjw.gif

https://c.tenor.com/p54UKZMskZoAAAAd/jonah-jameson-laugh.gif

[cyxthryth]

I find it amazing that you think the only person who spent time gathering data and evidence is yourself.

It is astounding arrogance that you think you are the one being wronged here.

You are just dismissing all of my data with no evidence, and think you spend more time providing data and evidence.

It is really a warped view of the conversation.

Un-warped, verbatim parts of the conversation are included below:

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/n2WyUFW.png

Shout out to Bontaiga who was very helpful in this investigation

https://i.imgur.com/AGCx3oS.png

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[PlsNoBan]

Yup, Nadoom also said Mages can teleport

I know reading isn't your strong suit. I'll shorten it for you:

https://i.imgur.com/rzcG3G6.png

[Gloomlord]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling.

https://c.tenor.com/Elp6DxobGWkAAAAC/truman-show.gif

STOP!!!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I know reading isn't your strong suit. I'll shorten it for you:

https://i.imgur.com/rzcG3G6.png

https://imgur.com/cskk3aC.png

Notice where Naboom said:

"They can teleport a single group member already in zone to themselves".

That is because you can use the word teleport to describe what happens. It is synonymous.

It is amazing you post evidence disproving your own terrible troll lol.

[cyxthryth]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.
Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.
I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here re is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data
Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


Again, DSM - of course - continues not to (directly) reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", and "win"for the sake of civil discussion hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/MsrIkgF.png

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Notice where Naboom said:

"They can teleport a single group member already in zone to themselves".

That is because you can use the word teleport to describe what happens. It is synonymous.

It is amazing you post evidence disproving your own terrible troll lol.

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/n2WyUFW.png

[cyxthryth]

Notice where Naboom said:

"They can teleport a single group member already in zone to themselves".


No. They said: "teleport"; teleport =/= "teleport" due to the fact that one is simply inside of quotation marks, the other simply isn't. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Notice where Naboom said:

"They can teleport a single group member already in zone to themselves".

That is because you can use the word teleport to describe what happens. It is synonymous.

It is amazing you post evidence disproving your own terrible troll lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.