Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Toxigen]

Imagine being so hung up on Ixi and WW dragons in 2022 that all of your logic approaching the game is centered around these two meaningless mob sets.

[PlsNoBan]

Only 6 more useless copy paste posts and DSM is at 1000!

[Toxigen]

This thread really makes me want to start a static enc / cleric / mage / druid 4 man doing animal charm zones all the way up and then destroying chardok ala progression 54-60.

[PlsNoBan]

This thread really makes me want to start a static enc / cleric / mage / druid 4 man doing animal charm zones all the way up and then destroying chardok ala progression 54-60.

Enjoy wiping all the time without shaman safety and GOOD LUCK DOING IXIBLAT THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IN EVERQUEST!

Idiot

[Toxigen]

Enjoy wiping all the time without shaman safety and GOOD LUCK DOING IXIBLAT THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IN EVERQUEST!

Idiot

savage

[Troxx]

woohoo grats on 300 pages, good job everyone =P

https://c.tenor.com/6IZKGSu4bSoAAAAC/accomplishment.gif

https://c.tenor.com/ozBZkSgaDEUAAAAC/awesome-thumbs-up.gif

https://c.tenor.com/5S_UqI9MktAAAAAC/rosy-modelo.gif

[Kich867]

Does all of that really matter though? Mob is gonna die, even if it takes a couple extra seconds longer. I don't think there's a need for that level of intricate parsing and optimization in a game like this. It's because of that mindset that other players who play certain classes have a hard time getting taken seriously.

I think that's DSM's entire point. That the mage helps kill things mildly faster but that time difference is irrelevant and you could instead use a 4th more flexible/supportive class instead. In his case, he's arguing heavily for shaman.

Imo, a druid would solve more overarching problems for the party. The convenience of travel on demand and eventually having the party with POTG is nice, the usefulness of snare in stopping runners if that's ever an issue, and decent spot heals. The party doesn't need anything else besides someone to help them get places and give them SoW.

[PlsNoBan]

Imo, a druid would solve more overarching problems for the party.

Nope only shaman for everything at all times. Sorry.

[eqravenprince]

Only 2,494 pages worth of replies left to make this the biggest thread on p99.

[PlsNoBan]

Only 2,494 pages worth of replies left to make this the biggest thread on p99.

https://i.imgur.com/UuvDcNx.gif

[Toxigen]

we can do it

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/1wffTU8qRCYAAAAd/sport-success.gif

[Ripqozko]

Congrats at 300+ , see you at 400. Congrats on making DSM copy and paste over and over.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[PlsNoBan]

I think we short circuited the handful of brain cells DSM had left :(

[Troxx]

……the same old bs …….

https://c.tenor.com/WJQLiIveRCsAAAAC/like-and-then.gif

[cyxthryth]

I think we short circuited the handful of brain cells DSM had left :(

"It turns out both sides were right." - LOL

[cyxthryth]

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

and here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Again, DSM - of course - did not directly reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

Hehe. :)

[tadkins]

Is there a point to spamming that on every page DSM? Not trolling, I'm genuinely just trying to get an answer out of you. Why does it matter so much? Just let people play what they want. You don't need perfect parsing and optimization for a 20+ year old long conquered game.

[tadkins]

I think that's DSM's entire point. That the mage helps kill things mildly faster but that time difference is irrelevant and you could instead use a 4th more flexible/supportive class instead. In his case, he's arguing heavily for shaman.

Imo, a druid would solve more overarching problems for the party. The convenience of travel on demand and eventually having the party with POTG is nice, the usefulness of snare in stopping runners if that's ever an issue, and decent spot heals. The party doesn't need anything else besides someone to help them get places and give them SoW.

Well said. I don't think anyone's ever complained about having a druid around. They just provide so much.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Is there a point to spamming that on every page DSM? Not trolling, I'm genuinely just trying to get an answer out of you. Why does it matter so much? Just let people play what they want. You don't need perfect parsing and optimization for a 20+ year old long conquered game.

I am not forcing people to play anything. I am not sure where you got this idea. I can only assume you read one of the many strawmen created to attack me.

It is strange people think I am the bad guy, when the other posters here are the ones melting down and insulting/memeing/trolling anybody who disagrees with them. It's well over 1000 posts at this point of pure vitriol. They are why this thread is so bloated. They turned it into an RnF thread.

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information. It is really that simple. Trolls don't get to win by hiding information they disagree with.

Factual data will help people determine which group combination they want to play. If you are someone that cares about the mathematical realities of the game, this information will help you. If you don't care, you are going to pick whatever you want to play anyway. It is better to have all the data available, and let people decide for themselves.

For some silly reason, the trolls are afraid of the basic mathematical realities of the game, and are trying to hide it. I can only assume they feel like a class they enjoy is being attacked, in this case a Mage. So they will defend the class at any cost, regardless of the truth.

None of the posters I have called trolls have been able to disprove any of the math so far in this thread, regardless of what they say. They just troll and hope I will go away.

I think that's DSM's entire point. That the mage helps kill things mildly faster but that time difference is irrelevant and you could instead use a 4th more flexible/supportive class instead. In his case, he's arguing heavily for shaman.

Well said. This is my point exactly.

[PlsNoBan]

For some silly reason, the trolls are afraid of the basic mathematical realities of the game, and are trying to hide it.

Ahh yes. All of us "trolls" are very very scared of your basic math reality.

2 + 2 = 4
Warrior solo > Enchanter solo
Redundant Shaman Utility > Everything
Everyone that disagrees with DSM nonsense = Troll

All basically equally valid mathematical equations

[Karanis]

18795

[cyxthryth]

OOPS! #400

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

and here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Again, DSM - of course - did not directly reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

Hehe. :)

[Troxx]

They are why this thread is so bloated.

https://c.tenor.com/DPWfqHRXbugAAAAC/we-stan.gif

[tadkins]

I am not forcing people to play anything. I am not sure where you got this idea. I can only assume you read one of the many strawmen created to attack me.


Not at all. I'm just reading all your data about how a mage does X and X more DPS and I'm sitting here like, "omg who cares, just invite the damn wizard!". Your math may or may not be correct, numbers have never been my strong suit so I can't say for sure or not. I'm only saying it shouldn't matter, as P99 doesn't have the equivalent of a WoW cutting edge mythic boss where that tight number crunching is necessary.

It strikes a nerve with me because that sort of optimization mindset is what's ruining the fun of the game for some. Wizard is my favorite class in the game but I genuinely feel like I can't play it on P99 because of attitudes like that.

Just how I feel personally. I wasn't influenced by anyone else.

[cyxthryth]

It is strange people think I am the bad guy, when the other posters here are the ones melting down and insulting/memeing/trolling anybody who disagrees with them.

No.

You have once again - laughably - attempted to make the claim that you are aware what others think (that they think you are "the bad guy" - whatever that is supposed to mean). You have provided zero evidence to support this claim, and therefore it is an unsubstantiated claim (and probably false).

Your post also seems to include a claim that "other posters hare are melting down".

For the sake of civil discussion, can you please provide the definitions of "bad guy", "troll"/"trolling", and "melting down" that you are using? :)


It's well over 1000 posts at this point of pure vitriol. They are why this thread is so bloated. They turned it into an RnF thread.

For the sake of civil discussion, can you please provide the definition of "vitriol" you are using? :)

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.

No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


It is really that simple. Trolls don't get to win by hiding information they disagree with.

The problem with your post - and the fact that you continue to ignore my posts - is that it seems to imply/indicate/reveal/betray/expose that you are not actually interested in engaging in a civil discussion in which all participants discuss civilly and back up their positions with relevant, factual data/evidence, and are instead interested in ensuring "trolls" do not "win".

For the sake of civil discussion, can you please provide the definition of "troll(s)" and "win" that you are using? :)

Factual data will help people determine which group combination they want to play.

The problem is that your post seems to indicate/reveal/betray/expose/confirm that you simply do not understand - or for some reason are seemingly attempting to pretend that you do not understand - that only relevant factual data is valuable. Data that is not relevant, would simply be irrelevant hehe. :)

If you are someone that cares about the mathematical realities of the game, this information will help you.
If you don't care, you are going to pick whatever you want to play anyway. It is better to have all the data available, and let people decide for themselves.

For some silly reason, the trolls are afraid of the basic mathematical realities of the game, and are trying to hide it. I can only assume they feel like a class they enjoy is being attacked, in this case a Mage. So they will defend the class at any cost, regardless of the truth.

The only data that will help is relevant data; as irrelevant data is simply not relevant, and thus that particular (irrelevant) data simply wouldn't help hehe. :)

You have provided zero definitions for "troll" (or "silly"), and have provided zero evidence to support your seemingly apparent claim that "the trolls are afraid of the basic mathematical realities of the game, and are trying to hide it", therefore, it is unclear what point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting by simply calling others "trolls" (or "silly"), and additionally, the claim is simply unsubstantiated (and probably false).


None of the posters I have called trolls have been able to disprove any of the math so far in this thread, regardless of what they say. They just troll and hope I will go away.

The problem with your post is that it seems to indicate that you believe that it is relevant whether your - irrelevant - math has or has not been "disproven". Only relevant information/data/evidence is relevant, therefore, your data - which is not relevant - is irrelevant, and since that irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - has already been stated to you multiple times by multipel posters (including myself), I am not sure why your posts continue to reveal/betray/expose/confirm a lack of understanding of these simple truths.

Additionally, your post once again states "they just troll" and, again, it is unclear what point you think you are making or what fact you believe you are refuting by making such a statement because you have not provided the definition you are using to - repeatedly - label other posters or the content of their posts.

Yet another problem with your post is that it seems to indicate that you believe that other posters "hope you will go away". Oh quite the contrary! :)

I am eagerly awaiting your replies which contain relevant, factual evidence to support your various claims (which change when you move goalposts or edit your posts) hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not at all. I'm just reading all your data about how a mage does X and X more DPS and I'm sitting here like, "omg who cares, just invite the damn wizard!". Your math may or may not be correct, numbers have never been my strong suit so I can't say for sure or not. I'm only saying it shouldn't matter, as P99 doesn't have the equivalent of a WoW cutting edge mythic boss where that tight number crunching is necessary.

It strikes a nerve with me because that sort of optimization mindset is what's ruining the fun of the game for some. Wizard is my favorite class in the game but I genuinely feel like I can't play it on P99 because of attitudes like that.

Just how I feel personally. I wasn't influenced by anyone else.

I understand how you feel. I honestly don't know the optimal way to make everybody have a great experience.

Some people (like myself), enjoy the math of the game, and want to see how to optimize their play experience.

Some people (like yourself), just want to play and have some fun. They don't care what's optimal.

Both types of players are equally welcome on P99, so you can't really help one without hurting the other. If you keep the math fuzzy to enhance your play experience, then the math inclined suffer, and vice versa.

[cyxthryth]

I understand how you feel. I honestly don't know the optimal way to make everybody have a great experience.

Assuming - as the above Quote would seem to imply - that you are an intelligent and/or understanding enough individual to at least seemingly understand some basic things, and that - at a bare minimum - you are aware that some things have the ability/capacity to make people (the individuals which constitute "everybody") have a great (or not great) experiences... have you considered how it affects the experience of others when you do not back up your positions/claims/statements about them (which you make repeatedly) with relevant, factual data/evidence, and instead you simply - repeatedly - call them "trolls" / claim they are "trolling" or "silly", claim their posts are "nonsense/vitriol/memes"/etc.) or even simply completely ignore their posts (as if you doing so will refute or change any facts)?

Some people (like myself), enjoy the math of the game, and want to see how to optimize their play experience.

Some people (like yourself), just want to play and have some fun. They don't care what's optimal.

Both types of players are equally welcome on P99, so you can't really help one without hurting the other. If you keep the math fuzzy to keep the players like yourself happy, then the math inclined suffer, and vice versa.

For the sake of civil discussion, can you please explain what you are attempting to convey when you say "if you keep the math fuzzy"" and go into a bit more detail on how "the math inclined suffer"?

[PlsNoBan]

Cyxthryth is almost as persistent at trying to get DSM to respond to him as DSM is about how good shamans are at everything

[Troxx]

Cyxthryth is almost as persistent at trying to get DSM to respond to him as DSM is about how good shamans are at everything

I still find it funny DSM literally will not talk to him. He’ll respond to my gifs and flat out insults from others … but will not say a word directly to him.

It’s a mystery

https://c.tenor.com/_InqREP0TIkAAAAM/steve-urkel-detective.gif

[Crede]

I still find it funny DSM literally will not talk to him. He’ll respond to my gifs and flat out insults from others … but will not say a word directly to him.

It’s a mystery

https://c.tenor.com/_InqREP0TIkAAAAM/steve-urkel-detective.gif

Same, it's hilariously obvious how DSM is afraid to engage him in any direct discussion. He actually resorted to trolling him in their brief exchange in this thread with Essence Lens stuff. Here's some history:

Nah, that's going to be Troxx and friends complaining because they don't have good data, and can't accept the truth or basic math.

The thread should have been over here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 , but the truth has thrown them into a rage they can't get out of, and must try and hide the truth with silly troll posts.
"Silly troll posts" huh? I see where this is going. ;)

You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.
Your concession in silence was accepted. :)

I see you haven't quite given up on this current thread just yet though. *chuckle* Take as much time as you need. You will certainly move on to hyper-focus on another thread/topic in which you'll continue to demonstrate your seemingly-apparent autism to all neurotypicals who encounter your posts.
I can only speak for myself, but your inevitable concession in silence for this thread is accepted in advance. :)
Wow. Sorry you are so mad lol. You can choose to believe that is what happened in the thread you linked:) Sorry you don't got Warder loot, silly.
Your multiple apologies are accepted alongside your silent concessions, both prior and pending. :)
Still mad. Still bad. Still sad. No Warder loot either. Essence Lens is great though, and better than most Warder loot. So you will be fine.
You do not know who I am, neither in-game nor IRL, you do not know what loot I have and you do not know how I feel. You may choose to type whatever you wish, it does not change those facts. :)
If you don't care, then why bother posting false nonsense?

Clearly you are still mad from that other thread (which is 4 months old at this point), which is why you are bringing it up lol.

Seriously it is ok. Essence Lens is better than most of the Warder loot you would have gotten. Only the most dedicated of raiders are getting SoM or Fungi Robe, and that is honestly only a few people. None of the other loot really matters. You could argue gnome mask if you are a fashion fanatic, but that is besides the point.

EDIT: I am not going to be responding to any more posts about this silly nonsense involving the other thread with you cyxthryth. Either you are attempting to troll (poorly), or you have some weird grudge and felt the need to bring up a 4 month old thread that isn't even related to this one. Not a good look either way. Please stick to RnF if you want to make a thread about it:)

It's really brilliant how he has managed to defeat DSM in all occasions resulting in him having to troll/ignore cyx.

[Troxx]

Wait … is there a whole ‘mother thread out there I am missing out on Crede?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Same, it's hilariously obvious how DSM is afraid to engage him in any direct discussion. He actually resorted to trolling him in their brief exchange in this thread with Essence Lens stuff. Here's some history:

It's really brilliant how he has managed to defeat DSM in almost all occasions resulting in him having to troll/ignore cyx.

It amazes me that you have to resort to posting what I said out of context, because you have no valid argument in this thread. Anybody who actually looks at what I was responding to will see I was defending myself from nonsense posting.

This is the worst attempt yet.

Do people not know you can look back at the post history?

[Crede]

Wait … is there a whole ‘mother thread out there I am missing out on Crede?

There have been many threads which DSM has blew up in your absence.

The one cyx mentioned above, DSM tried to use facts to state that people didn't have the right to be mad about the sleeper getting awakened, in which he was eventually silenced again by cyx.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There have been many threads which DSM has blew up in your absence.

The one cyx mentioned above, DSM tried to use facts to state that people didn't have the right to be mad about the sleeper getting awakened, in which he was eventually silenced again by cyx.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37

Defendng yourself from trolling is not blowng up, and you can read what they said first. I never started it. This is just sad. You are just posting me defending myself from trolling lol. Great job at showing nothing.

[tadkins]

Both types of players are equally welcome on P99, so you can't really help one without hurting the other. If you keep the math fuzzy to enhance your play experience, then the math inclined suffer, and vice versa.
I certainly don't feel welcome on P99 as a wizard.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I certainly don't feel welcome on P99 as a wizard.

I am sorry to hear that. The data for the game has been out for years at this point, so unless P99 purposely changes the server to be more custom, people will already know which classes are underpowered. I don't think tumhe genie can be put back in the bottle.

[Crede]

It amazes me that you have to resort to posting what I said out of context, because you have no valid argument in this thread. Anybody who actually looks at what I was responding to will see I was defending myself from nonsense posting.

This is the worst attempt yet.

Do people not know you can look back at the post history?

My argument is perfectly valid, and has been backed by the majority of this thread.

It is really quite sad that you had to resort to posting data irrelevant to this discussion(1-2 shaman fights) and had to goalpost shift(5 classes) in an attempt to defend your flawed argument.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

My argument is perfectly valid, and has been backed by the majority of this thread.

It is really quite sad that you had to resort to posting data irrelevant to this discussion(1-2 shaman fights) and had to goalpost shift(5 classes) in an attempt to defend your flawed argument.

The only sad thing here is you are posting things out of context, which can easily be disproven. Its desparate.

You are really afraid of basic math and data, I don't know why.

[Crede]

The only sad thing here is you are posting things out of context, which can easily be disproven. Its desparate.

You are really afraid of basic math and data, I don't know why.

I love to see math/data. But unfortunately yours was in no way relevant to this discussion, which you refuse to acknowledge(1-2 shaman fights != sustained dps groups)

I have already offered to contribute to this group setting which would provide relevant data. But oddly, you continue to invest many hours in defending your irrelevant data, instead of helping to contribute something that can be useful for this thread. So at this point, we can only assume that you are simply a troll like the others you have accused. Specifically, a data troll :D

[PlsNoBan]

Remember when common core started being taught in schools and everyone freaked out about "new math"? Wait til they hear about DSM math

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I love to see math/data. But unfortunately yours was in no way relevant to this discussion, which you refuse to acknowledge(1-2 shaman fights != sustained dps groups)

I have already offered to contribute to this group setting which would provide relevant data. But oddly, you continue to invest many hours in defending your irrelevant data, instead of helping to contribute something that can be useful for this thread. So at this point, we can only assume that you are simply a troll like the others you have accused. Specifically, a data troll :D

Claiming data is invalid without evidence is what you are doing. Nobody has been able to show how the data is invalid. You are grasping yet again.

I have contributed more data and actual math than all of the trolls combined. It is not my responsibility to provide the data for your arguments too.

Asking me to prove a negative is nonsense. If you think the data is invalid, you need to provide evidence for that claim.

[cyxthryth]

I still find it funny DSM literally will not talk to him. He’ll respond to my gifs and flat out insults from others … but will not say a word directly to him.

It’s a mystery

https://c.tenor.com/_InqREP0TIkAAAAM/steve-urkel-detective.gif

I'm glad you a few of you guys have gotten some amount of joy out of my contributions to this thread and the responses - or lack thereof - that my contributions have received from DSM.

As you have all probably seen/noticed, I have simply continued to re-insert myself into the conversation via (direct) replies to DSM's posts, because it is simply that easy (for me) to provide or discuss factual points/data/evidence that are relevant to the conversation. As long as DSM continues to reply to other posters and thereby demonstrates interest in engaging in a civil discussion, I will continue to attempt to engage in civil discussion with him.

With that being said, I am not sure why it seems like DSM does not - seemingly - find it as easy as I do to carry on a simple civil conversation in this manner, otherwise - if it is as easy for him as it is for me (and I imagine most of the rest of you posters/readers) - then his lack of replies to me would seem to possibly indicate an inability to refute the points I have made and/or answer the questions I have asked him (directly) without revealing/exposing/betraying/confirming that he is not actually interested in having a civil discussion (as both his lack of replies to me and the content of some of his posts have seemed to indicate)... or that he simply does not have any/sufficient relevant factual data to provide in support of his position/claim/"argument"(s)... or that he is the one who is "trolling" which - logically - is entirely possible, and perhaps even probable, as he has not yet provided the definition that he is using for "troll"/"trolling" hehe. :)

(lol)

[cyxthryth]

Claiming data is invalid without evidence is what you are doing. Nobody has been able to show how the data is invalid. You are grasping yet again.

I have contributed more data and actual math than all of the trolls combined. It is not my responsibility to provide the data for your arguments too.

Asking me to prove a negative is nonsense. If you think the data is invalid, you need to provide evidence for that claim.

I am not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).

[Troxx]

There have been many threads which DSM has blew up in your absence.

The one cyx mentioned above, DSM tried to use facts to state that people didn't have the right to be mad about the sleeper getting awakened, in which he was eventually silenced again by cyx.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37

Wow, yeah. Pretty sure we’re dealing with a complete mental breakdown.

[cyxthryth]

The only sad thing here is you are posting things out of context, which can easily be disproven. Its desparate.

I am not sure why your post in the above Quote would seem to indicate that you believe that your posts were taken out of context (because you did not provide any reason/evidence/data to support that - unsubstantiated, and likely false- claim) or why you have not simply disproven it (presumably with relevant, factual data/evidence or at least logic or math) if it "can easily be disproven", as you claimed in the above Quote.

You are really afraid of basic math and data, I don't know why.

The problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that you have the ability to know/claim/state the fears of others - such as that someone is "really afraid of basic math and data" - but you have provided no evidence to support this claim, and thus it is unsubstantiated (and probably false).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wow, yeah. Pretty sure we’re dealing with a complete mental breakdown.

You have over 200 posts of just insults and memes because you can't have a civil discussion. Your post history is in shambles right now. I am not sure why you think I am the one that looks bad here.

You are throwing actual temper tantrums every time you start posting again.

[Troxx]

A temper tantrum? I’ll be completely honest at no point in this thread have I ever been mad.

It feels like you’re projecting.

I am quite proud of my posting history. Wouldn’t change it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A temper tantrum? I’ll be completely honest at no point in this thread have I ever been mad.

It feels like you’re projecting.

You can't hide posting five times back to back with memes and insults. I have honestly never seen such a thing on these forums. It looks very angry to me.

You can't remember to post all your memes in one go?

[cyxthryth]

You have over 200 posts of just insults and memes because you can't have a civil discussion. Your post history is in shambles right now. I am not sure why you think I am the one that looks bad here.

You are throwing actual temper tantrums every time you start posting again.

The problem is that your post seems to indicate that you believe that others' posts are "just insults and memes" simply because you - repeatedly (for some reason) - state it as if it is an objective fact. Is it not an objective fact, and the number of times you attempt to state it as an objective fact will not make it an objective fact. The irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - is that you have simply seemingly attempted to dismiss others and others' posts as "silly", "nonsense" and "trolls/trolling", without providing definitions for "silly", "nonsense" or "troll/trolling", so I am not sure what point you think you are making or what facts you think you are refuting when you repeatedly repeat these - unsubstantiated (and probably false) - claims.

For the sake of civil discussion, can you please provide the definition of "temper tantrum" that you are using?

[PlsNoBan]

What's worse?

A: Posting memes/insults in response to someone being an absolute moron that can't have an honest discussion about anything

B: Posting very serious data/math posts (except its wrong/bad 99% of the time) and being an absolute moron and arguing extremely dishonestly and dismissing everyone that disagrees as a troll and copy/pasting over and over and citing argumentum ad populum and quoting marcus aurelius like they're legitimate counter points to everyone (correctly) saying you're wrong

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What's worse?

A: Posting memes/insults in response to someone being an absolute moron that can't have an honest discussion about anything

B: Posting very serious data/math posts (except its wrong/bad 99% of the time) and being an absolute moron and arguing extremely dishonestly and dismissing everyone that disagrees as a troll and copy/pasting over and over and citing argumentum ad populum and quoting marcus aurelius like they're legitimate counter points to everyone (correctly) saying you're wrong

Posting insults and memes is bad. Not only does it show you have no valid arguments, but it makes you look terrible.

You have yet to show why the data is bad. Just saying so means nothing.

The number of people who disagree with me is also irrelevant to the truth.

Sorry you literally have nothing.

I call you a troll because you have admitted it multiple times lol.

[Crede]

You can't hide posting five times back to back with memes and insults. I have honestly never seen such a thing on these forums. It looks very angry to me.

You can't remember to post all your memes in one go?

I’m honestly not sure why you give such a negative connotation to the memes. They at least provide one major benefit - laughter.

Your irrelevant data gives us no benefit. It’s like telling us endlessly 2+2=4. While accurate, it is still completely irrelevant to the scope of this discussion. Like, you might as well have given us a parse/video of a cleric doing dps on vindi. That would have been no difference in irrelevance to the data you’ve already presented.

Unfortunately for us, you are the worst kind of troll, because it gives us no additional benefit each time you post your data.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m honestly not sure why you give such a negative connotation to the memes. They at least provide one major benefit - laughter.

Your irrelevant data gives us no benefit. It’s like telling us endlessly 2+2=4. While accurate, it is still completely irrelevant to the scope of this discussion. Like, you might as well have given us a parse/video of a cleric doing dps on vindi. That would have been no difference in irrelevance to the data you’ve already presented.

Unfortunately for us, you are the worst kind of troll, because it gives us no additional benefit each time you post your data.

The worst kind of troll is the one who just keeps asking for more data without providing any of their own, while claiming all data gathered is invalid. That is you.

If you think my data is bad, you have to prove it.

[Troxx]

The worst kind of troll is the one who just keeps asking for more data without providing any of their own.

https://c.tenor.com/1l_jckzapW4AAAAC/irony.gif

[Crede]

The worst kind of troll is the one who just keeps asking for more data without providing any of their own, while claiming all data gathered is invalid. That is you.

If you think my data is bad, you have to prove it.

I never said your data was bad or inaccurate. I fully agree with what your videos show. It is no mystery what dps a shaman can do to a golem in sebilis.

Unfortunately for us however, nobody asked for that kind of data. So it just gets thrown into the pile of memes/insults/useless information.

Until then, I’m sorry to say, you’re just a data troll.

[PlsNoBan]

"Everyone is trolling and trolling is bad!" - Biggest troll in this thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I never said your data was bad or inaccurate. I fully agree with what your videos show. It is no mystery what dps a shaman can do to a golem in sebilis.

Unfortunately for us however, nobody asked for that kind of data. So it just gets thrown into the pile of memes/insults/useless information.

Until then, I’m sorry to say, you’re just a data troll.

If you agree the data is correct, then you need to explain why the DPS would differ in a group vs. solo. A mobs HP/AC/Resists don't change when you group. My pet hitting the golem for 7 minutes solo would yield the exact same results in a group.

Troxx's data was from Sebilis Crypt trash, and this golem is level 49, which is higher than Crypt trash. I matched Troxx's data with equivalent mobs. I made those videos when Troxx's data was all we had.

Again, you just keep trolling by claiming all data that disagrees with you is invalid. It is just silly. You need to provide evidence showing why my data is invalid.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

"Everyone is trolling and trolling is bad!" - Biggest troll in this thread

The title is yours actually. That is your 500th post, and at least 350 of them are just insults/trolls/memes. You are the #1 troll in the thread, by your own admission of being a troll.

You literally have at least as many troll posts as the total posts of the next highest poster, who is Troxx sitting at 350 posts total.

[Gloomlord]

A temper tantrum? I’ll be completely honest at no point in this thread have I ever been mad.

It feels like you’re projecting.

I am quite proud of my posting history. Wouldn’t change it.

Even if you were angry, should you be ashamed of that?

There should be no shame in feeling disdain for someone like DSM.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Even if you were angry, should you be ashamed of that?

There should be no shame in feeling disdain for someone like DSM.

This is a forum about a 23 year old elf sim. It is very disturbing how harsh your language is about me.

You need to take a break and stop being so angry.

You aren't going to post any evidence, so you are just wasting your time. You haven't posted any yet.

[PlsNoBan]

at least 350 of them are just insults/trolls/memes

https://i.imgur.com/jJgYW8A.gif

You absolutely pulled this number out of your ass and it's so far off it's not even funny. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Your numbers tend to be super far off on everything.

Also: There's absolutely nothing wrong with memes and do not in any way invalidate someones post. Even your stupid posts. They just invalidate themselves from all the bad arguments. You can meme away and it won't change a thing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/jJgYW8A.gif

You absolutely pulled this number out of your ass and it's so far off it's not even funny. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Your numbers tend to be super far off on everything.

Also: There's absolutely nothing wrong with memes and do not in any way invalidate someones post

Everybody can see the post history. Don't blame me because you do nothing but post memes/trolls/insults.

It is sad the majority of your posts on this forum are just RnF flaming a thread not in RnF.

You can't even provide evidence for your claims.

And yes, it is against the forum rules to do what you are doing here. You aren't supposed to troll non RnF threads with memes and insults nonstop.

Attacks/Flames
Argue the point, not the poster. Do not attack, slander, or bash fellow forum users

[PlsNoBan]

Everybody can see the post history. Don't blame me because you do nothing but post memes/trolls/insults.

It is sad the majority of your posts on this forum are just RnF flaming a thread not in RnF.

The post history is very clear. I have posted nowhere near 350 troll posts. Anyone can view the very clear post history to confirm this. I have shown (in the very clear post history) that I have no issue admitting to it when I make a troll post as you so cleverly like to remind me as if it's some kind of "gotcha". You can't "gotcha" someone on something they openly admit to and are not ashamed of lol. I can't believe I have to explain this stuff. It's like I'm talking to a 7 yr old. I suggest reviewing the very clear post history and getting a better idea of the facts before making wild accusations. Also if you're being a moron and I call you a moron that doesn't invalidate my post no matter how much you wish it did. You can bitch and moan about troll posts all you want. Memes don't invalidate and calling a spade a spade does not invalidate. Post history is very clear. Please review the post history.

Post history









.... post history

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The post history is very clear. I have posted nowhere near 350 troll posts. Anyone can view the very clear post history to confirm this. I have shown (in the very clear post history) that I have no issue admitting to it when I make a troll post as you so cleverly like to remind me as if it's some kind of "gotcha". You can't "gotcha" someone on something they openly admit to and are not ashamed of lol. I can't believe I have to explain this stuff. It's like I'm talking to a 7 yr old. I suggest reviewing the very clear post history and getting a better idea of the facts before making wild accusations. Also if you're being a moron and I call you a moron that doesn't invalidate my post no matter how much you wish it did. You can bitch and moan about troll posts all you want. Memes don't invalidate and calling a spade a spade does not invalidate. Post history is very clear. Please review the post history.

Post history









.... post history

Yes, it should be obvious that trolls aren't taken seriously. You admitted to being a troll and have at least 350 troll/insult/meme posts.

There is no reason to believe anything you say in this thread, since your motivation to troll is far beyond your motivation to have an actual discussion.

[Troxx]

Insults? Pointing out that you behave, post, and therefore I guess think like someone who legitimately has Autism? Those were objective observations - not insults.

I got plenty of amazeballs insults:

DSM’s mommas so fat she stepped on the scale and it read “to be continued”!

https://c.tenor.com/e9dx2RZoKikAAAAC/burn-ice.gif

Ah … yo momma jokes. They were the bees knees in early 90s elementary and middle school.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Insults? Pointing out that you behave, post, and therefore I guess think like someone who legitimately has Autism? Those were objective observations - not insults.

I got plenty of amazeballs insults:

DSM’s mommas so fat she stepped on the scale and it read “to be continued”!

https://c.tenor.com/e9dx2RZoKikAAAAC/burn-ice.gif

Ah … yo momma jokes. They were the bees knees in early 90s elementary and middle school.

Mega cringeworthy post.

[PlsNoBan]

What are the top 5 things you guys think DSM thinks about when he's touching himself late at night? I'm guessing it's something like:

1: Shamans
2: Warriors soloing better than enchanters
3: The post history
4: Dishonest arguments
5: The very clear post history
6: Pretending people that post memes and act a little trolly here and there don't have a point

I know I posted more than 5. Just pretend #6 is a pocket answer. Nobody said I couldn't have a pocket answer.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What are the top 5 things you guys think DSM thinks about when he's touching himself late at night? I'm guessing it's something like:

1: Shamans
2: Warriors soloing better than enchanters
3: The post history
4: Dishonest arguments
5: The very clear post history
6: Pretending people that post memes and act a little trolly here and there don't have a point

I know I posted more than 5. Just pretend #6 is a pocket answer. Nobody said I couldn't have a pocket answer.

Yikes.

[Gloomlord]

This is a forum about a 23 year old elf sim. It is very disturbing how harsh your language is about me.

You need to take a break and stop being so angry.

You aren't going to post any evidence, so you are just wasting your time. You haven't posted any yet.

Just read your posts in that thread about the Sleeper.

You're a complete arsehole. Just putting that out there.

You need to take a break from your insanity, I dare say.

[PlsNoBan]

7: Saying yikes or cringe when it isn't

If you can have 1 pocket answer why not 2?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just read your posts in that thread about the Sleeper.

You're a complete arsehole. Just putting that out there.

You need to take a break from your insanity, I dare say.

At least 150 out of the 209 posts of your entire post history is calling me some variation of human filth.

You are the arsehole. You need to calm down and stop being angry about basic math and data from a 23 year old elf sim.

[PlsNoBan]

Uh oh. DSM is making up numbers again.

[Gloomlord]

What I don't understand is why he's saying that I'm "disturbing in how harsh I am".

My literal first post in this thread is saying "lay off the autism insults".

I was willing to ask for PlsNoBan and Troxx to lay off the otherwise deserved insults about your blighted character, and you think I'm being "too harsh"?

Also, funny of you to invoke "23-year-old elf sim" to try and shame me, when everyone else is saying the same about you in how stubborn you are in refusing to admit mage is a better group DPS than shaman.

[Gloomlord]

Ahem, as Troxx would post:

https://c.tenor.com/1l_jckzapW4AAAAC/irony.gif

[PlsNoBan]

To be honest I only made the choice to lay off the autism stuff cause I actually know people with autism who are super smart and they're able to be objective and argue their points honestly and admit when they're wrong. Wasn't really fair to lump them in with DSM. Whatever he's got rattling around in his ogre brain is an entirely different beast.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What I don't understand is why he's saying that I'm "disturbing in how harsh I am".

My literal first post in this thread is saying "lay off the autism insults".

I was willing to ask for PlsNoBan and Troxx to lay off the otherwise deserved insults about your blighted character, and you think I'm being "too harsh"?

Also, funny of you to invoke "23-year-old elf sim" to try and shame me, when everyone else is saying the same about you in how stubborn you are in refusing to admit mage is a better group DPS than shaman.

The language you use is just creepy. It shows real anger. You need to calm down. You literally said you wanted to slap me lol. It's real weird. You also started insulting me about 20 posts in, so your "nice" period was very short.

You keep making up strawmen. The point I am making is Mage DPS doesn't matter in a group with 2x Enchanters due to DPS breakpoints. The data shows even when an Epic Mage (normal Mage DPS is lower) is doing 50 more DPS than a Shaman, you are only gaining 4 seconds per kill on a mob with 8k HP. That isn't getting you more kills per hour, so you gain nothing.

[Gloomlord]

"You need to calm down whilst I post absolute nonsense that I know isn't true".

Pretty hard to do that, wouldn't you say?

If you think I'm creepy because I believe you deserve a slap in the face for your vile behaviour, then you haven't seen creepy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

"You need to calm down whilst I post absolute nonsense that I know isn't true".

Pretty hard to do that, wouldn't you say?

If you think I'm creepy because I believe you deserve a slap in the face for your vile behaviour, then you haven't seen creepy.

Wow.

You are basically threatening me and admitting to doing creepy things to people you don't like. Things that are supposed to sound real bad.

Remember, this is all because you read some basic math about a 23 year old elf sim.

You need to calm down and take a break.

[Gloomlord]

How am I threatening you?!?!

Prove it!

Oh, wait, here's something better:

MEGA YIKES!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How am I threatening you?!?!

Prove it!

Oh, wait, here's something better:

MEGA YIKES!

Don't blame me because you admitted to doing creepy things to people you don't like. Creepy things you clearly want to do to me.

You are way too angry. You need to calm down and stop doing creepy things to people.

[Gloomlord]

I "admitted" to doing "creepy things"...?

What?

GIGA YIKERS!!!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you think I'm creepy because I believe you deserve a slap in the face for your vile behaviour, then you haven't seen creepy.

This is definately a threat. You are implying you have much creepier things you want do to me.

If that wasn't your intent, you need to phrase things in a way less creepy manner.

It is clear your anger is clouding your judgement, or revealing things you probably shouldn't reveal.

Take a break.

[PlsNoBan]

This is definately a threat. You are implying you have much creepier things you want do to me.

If that wasn't your intent, you need to phrase things in a way less creepy manner.

It is clear your anger is clouding your judgement, or revealing things you probably shouldn't reveal.

That's.... not at all a threat? That's him saying you clearly haven't seen anything truly creepy if you think saying some rando on the internet deserves to be slapped for being an idiot is "creepy". I would tend to agree. If that's creepy you have no fucking idea what actual creepy is. That's tame as fuck.

It's really honestly shocking how dense you are

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's.... not at all a threat? That's him saying you clearly haven't seen anything truly creepy if you think some rando on the internet deserves to be slapped for being an idiot is "creepy". I would tend to agree. If that's creepy you have no fucking idea what actual creepy is. That's tame as fuck.

It's shocking how dense you are. Really.

Mega yikes trying to defend that.

[Gloomlord]

That's.... not at all a threat? That's him saying you clearly haven't seen anything truly creepy if you think saying some rando on the internet deserves to be slapped for being an idiot is "creepy". I would tend to agree. If that's creepy you have no fucking idea what actual creepy is. That's tame as fuck.

It's really honestly shocking how dense you are

This is the same guy who told you at the beginning of this thread "You mad bro?".

His self-righteousness is off the charts!

[PlsNoBan]

There's nothing to defend. He said something that is in absolutely no way a threat and you said "This is definitely a threat" except you misspelled it as "definately". I'm just pointing out how VERY CLEARLY wrong you are. I know you'll never admit it cause you've posted over 1000 times and not admitted to being wrong about anything once. But the truth is that was like... extremely obviously not a threat. It doesn't even make sense as a threat.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There's nothing to defend. He said something that is in absolutely no way a threat and you said "This is definitely a threat" except you misspelled it as "definately". I'm just pointing out how VERY CLEARLY wrong you are. I know you'll never admit it cause you've posted over 1000 times and not admitted to being wrong about anything once. But the truth is that was like... extremely obviously not a threat. It doesn't even make sense as a threat.

This is just sad. You are so desparate to prove me wrong you have to try and look at what he said in the best way possible.

I wouldn't recommend defending clearly creepy posts that sound like threats.

[PlsNoBan]

I think the only sad thing here is how badly the education system and/or your parents failed you. No well adjusted human being behaves the way that you do. Nobody threatened you and to say otherwise is insanity.

All jokes aside DSM. I'm kind of embarrassed by how many times I've posted in this thread and you're over 2x higher post count than me. Might be time to like... Give it a rest ya know?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think the only sad thing here is how badly the education system and/or your parents failed you. No well adjusted human being behaves the way that you do. Nobody threatened you and to say otherwise is insanity.

All jokes aside DSM. I'm kind of embarrassed by how many times I've posted in this thread and you're over 2x higher post count than me. Might be time to like... Give it a rest ya know?

You can provide evidence to back up your points or stop trolling at any time. I am not forcing you to be here trolling.

[PlsNoBan]

You can provide evidence to back up your points or stop trolling at any time. I am not forcing you to be here trolling.

1: Not trolling right now
2: You couldn't force me to do anything if you wanted to
3: Your post count is over 2x mine and mine is embarrassing enough

Give it a rest pal. Enough is enough.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

1: Not trolling right now
2: You couldn't force me to do anything if you wanted to
3: Your post count is over 2x mine and mine is embarrassing enough

Give it a rest pal. Enough is enough.

The only embarassing thing here is the admitted troll trying to pretend he isn't a troll lol.

I am not sure who you think you are fooling. You said you are fine admitting to being a troll, so why back down now?

[Gloomlord]

Okay, sorry, DSM. My mistake.

I shouldn't have "threatened" you when I told you are worthy of being slapped in the face.

Can you stop trying to change the subject now about how shaman DPS is completely eclipsed by mage DPS, and how their utility is outdone by a druid? That would be nice.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[PlsNoBan]

The only emberassing thing here is the admitted troll trying to pretend he isn't a troll lol.

I am not sure who you think you are fooling. You said you are fine admitting to being a troll, so why back down now?

I admit when I'm trolling. You simply stating I'm a troll means nothing. Haven't you posted 1000 times now about "just because you say something doesn't make it true"? do your own words not apply to you?

Fact 1: My post count in this thread is embarrassing and I've posted quite a bit more than I should have

Fact 2: Your post count is more than 2x mine

The post history is VERY clear on this. It's time to give it a rest. This thread is going nowhere.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I admit when I'm trolling. You simply stating I'm a troll means nothing. Haven't you posted 1000 times now about "just because you say something doesn't make it true?" do your own words not apply to you?

Fact 1: My post count in this thread is embarrassing and I've posted quite a bit more than I should have

Fact 2: Your post count is more than 2x mine

The post history is VERY clear on this. It's time to give it a rest. This thread is going nowhere.

You can stop trolling at any time. I am not keeping you here.

[PlsNoBan]

You can stop trolling at any time. I am not keeping you here.

We've been over this. I'm aware you aren't forcing me to do anything. You're literally incapable of forcing me to do anything. I'm currently not trolling and have told you as much. Simply stating that I am means nothing.

Your post count is embarrassingly high. Please for your own sake take a step back and really think about the fact that you posted OVER ONE THOUSAND TIMES arguing about shamans in everquest with a bunch of strangers whom you've labeled all of them trolls that should be ignored. Does that really make sense to you? What are you trying to prove here?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We've been over this. I'm aware you aren't forcing me to do anything. You're literally incapable of forcing me to do anything. I'm currently not trolling and have told you as much. Simply stating that I am means nothing.

Your post count is embarrassingly high. Please for your own sake take a step back and really think that you posted OVER ONE THOUSAND TIMES arguing about shamans in everquest with a bunch of strangers whom you've labeled all of them trolls that should be ignored. Does that really make sense to you? What are you trying to prove here?

You can stop trolling at any time. Trolls do not get to win debates by drowning out facts in nonsense posts.

Please provide counter evidence, or stop trolling.

[Gloomlord]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling.

https://c.tenor.com/Elp6DxobGWkAAAAC/truman-show.gif

[PlsNoBan]

You can stop trolling at any time. Trolls do not get to win debates by drowning out facts in nonsense posts.

Please provide counter evidence, or stop trolling.

Simply stating that I am trolling does not make it true. Sorry to break the bad news to you. What is your reason for continuing to post here? Only people you've labeled trolls are reading and responding. Do you still believe after all this time that there's silent readers who haven't seen your copy paste message yet? Do you think posting it again is gonna help someone?

Really dude. What is your motivation? I'm extremely confused. You've said "ignore the trolls" and labeled everyone here a troll like 100+ times now. Yet the only people talking are people you labeled trolls. You aren't even ignoring them yourself? You're responding to people you say are trolls as we speak this very moment. Your behavior is the biggest mindfuck I've ever witnessed in 32 years on this earth.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Simply stating that I am trolling does not make it true. Sorry to break the bad news to you. What is your reason for continuing to post here? Only people you've labeled trolls are reading and responding. Do you still believe after all this time that there's silent readers who haven't seen your copy paste message yet? Do you think posting it again is gonna help someone?

Really dude. What is your motivation? I'm extremely confused. You've said "ignore the trolls" and labeled everyone here a troll like 100+ times now. Yet the only people talking are people you labeled trolls. You aren't even ignoring them yourself? You're responding to people you say are trolls as we speak this very moment. Your behavior is the biggest mindfuck I've ever witnessed in 32 years on this earth.

It would be unfathomable to a troll who thinks they can shut down conversations simply by trolling.

The reality is you haven't provided any evidence to back up your claims, only nonsense posts backed up by other trolls.

If you have ever not been trolling, I am still amazed you think basic math such as determining DPS breakpoints is something you can claim is debatable math. 8000 / 300 is a very easy calculation. DPS in solo situations will be the same in a group, the mob's HP/AC/Resists don't change. It's like you don't understand the game at all.

[PlsNoBan]

It would be unfathomable to a troll who thinks they can shut down conversations simply by trolling.

The reality is you haven't provided any evidence to back up your claims, only nonsense posts backed up by other trolls.

If you have ever not been trolling, I am still amazed you think basic math such as determining DPS breakpoints is something you can claim is debatable math. 8000 / 300 is a very easy calculation. DPS in solo situations will be the same in a group, the mob's HP/AC/Resists don't change. It's like you don't understand the game at all.

I disagree with your argument and a lot of your data but for the sake of argument let's put that aside. Even if I didn't disagree with you. You have labeled me a troll and said all my posts should be ignored. You've copy pasted that message dozens and dozens of times. Yet you aren't ignoring me yourself. In fact you reply to me and other people you believe are trolls CONSTANTLY. So much so that you've accumulated over a THOUSAND posts. Almost ALL of which are in response to someone labeled a troll in your mind.

Does this make sense to you? I'm very very confused by it. Either you're full of shit and don't actually believe we're trolls and you're just saying that to attempt to discredit the opposition (thus being kind of a troll yourself) OR you really sat here and replied to trolls 1000+ times. Neither of those options works out in your favor. You look super dumb either way you spin this one.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I disagree with your argument and a lot of your data but for the sake of argument let's put that aside. Even if I didn't disagree with you. You have labeled me a troll and said all my posts should be ignored. You've copy pasted that message dozens and dozens of times. Yet you aren't ignoring me yourself. In fact you reply to me and other people you believe are trolls CONSTANTLY. So much so that you've accumulated over a THOUSAND posts. Almost ALL of which are in response to someone labeled a troll in your mind.

Does this make sense to you? I'm very very confused by it. Either you're full of shit and don't actually believe we're trolls and you're just saying that to attempt to discredit the opposition (thus being kind of a troll yourself) OR you really sat here and replied to trolls 1000+ times. Neither of those options works out in your favor. You look super dumb either way you spin this one.

This is why you are almost certainly a troll.

You keep posting nonsense because you are claiming my math and data is invalid, but you haven't ever said why, or provided evidence.

You just keep dismissing all data and math that disagrees with you, even when it is basically impossible to disprove. That is classic troll behavior.

How do you think you are going to disprove a player who is regenerating mana at 20 per tick is not getting 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour? That is an example of what you deride as "napkin math" lol. What game are you playing where this changes?

[PlsNoBan]

This is why you are almost certainly a troll.

You keep posting nonsense because you are claiming my math and data is invalid, but you haven't ever said why, or provided evidence.

You just keep dismissing all data and math that disagrees with you, even when it is basically impossible to disprove. That is classic troll behavior.

How do you think you are going to disprove a player who is regenerating mana at 20 per tick is not getting 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour? That is an example of what you deride as "napkin math" lol. What game are you playing where this changes?

Am I a troll that should be ignored or not? Cause you've responded 1000+ times to "trolls" and are doing so literally this very moment. Here are your options:

A: Ignore the "trolls"
B: Admit they aren't actually trolls and you're just name calling/insulting like you love to bitch about
C: Admit that you've posted 1000+ times doing nothing but feeding trolls

Which is it DSM? Let's get to the bottom of this once and for all.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Am I a troll that should be ignored or not? Cause you've responded 1000+ times to "trolls" and are doing so literally this very moment. Here are your options:

A: Ignore the "trolls"
B: Admit they aren't actually trolls and you're just name calling/insulting like you love to bitch about
C: Admit that you've posted 1000+ times doing nothing but feeding trolls

Which is it DSM? Let's get to the bottom of this once and for all.

If you want to prove you aren't a troll, you need to stop dismissing my math and data without reason.

If you can provide counter evidence or show where my calculations are wrong, that would be a step in the right direction.

Again, claiming 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour is debatable math is 100% troll behavior. I refuse to believe you are this incapable of basic math and logic skills.

[PlsNoBan]

If you want to prove you aren't a troll, you need to stop dismissing my math and data without reason.

If you can provide counter evidence or show where my calculations are wrong, that would be a step in the right direction.

Again, claiming 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour is debatable math is 100% troll behavior. I refuse to believe you are this incapable of basic math and logic skills.

You aren't answering the question. Again these are the options:

A: Ignore the "trolls"
B: Admit they aren't actually trolls and you're just name calling/insulting like you love to bitch about
C: Admit that you've posted 1000+ times doing nothing but feeding trolls

Which are you going with?

[PlsNoBan]

I've explained like several hundred times all the ways in which I disagree with you. I don't think explaining any further is going to help much.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You aren't answering the question. Again these are the options:

A: Ignore the "trolls"
B: Admit they aren't actually trolls and you're just name calling/insulting like you love to bitch about
C: Admit that you've posted 1000+ times doing nothing but feeding trolls

Which are you going with?

No. You need to start proving you don't deserve to be called a troll first. You have admitted to being one, and haven't provided any reason to doubt my math or data.

Otherwise me calling you a troll is perfectly valid. Please address my previous post.

[PlsNoBan]

No. You need to start proving you don't deserve to be called a troll first. You have admitted to being one, and haven't provided any reason to doubt my math or data.

Otherwise me calling you a troll is perfectly valid. Please address my previous post.

I'm not asking you to not call me a troll. I don't give a fuck whether you think I am or not. You've decided that you believe I am along with every other poster in this thread. I'm simply asking why you copy/paste over and over that people should ignore all the trolls. Then you don't ignore any of them? Why have you posted over a THOUSAND TIMES in response to people you perceive to be trolls? Is feeding trolls something you enjoy? Are you just insulting/name calling and don't believe they're actually trolls?

Just trying to understand your actions here cause they don't make any sense. Help me understand?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not asking you to not call me a troll. I don't give a fuck whether you think I am or not. You've decided that you believe I am along with every other poster in this thread. I'm simply asking why you copy/paste over and over that people should ignore all the trolls. Then you don't ignore any of them? Why have you posted over a THOUSAND TIMES in response to people you perceive to be trolls? Is feeding trolls something you enjoy? Are you just insulting/name calling and don't believe they're actually trolls?

Just trying to understand your actions here cause they don't make any sense. Help me understand?

l told you why I am doing this before. I am not going to let trolls drown out real facts with nonsense posts.

Trolls do not get to win debates this way.

I am calling you a troll because of your behavior, not because I am insulting you.

If my data is incorrect or my math is wrong, you need to show why.

Simply claiming my math or data is invalid is not an argument. It is a fallacy at best, and trolling at worst. All of the people I claim as trolls are doing the same thing of assuming my data/math is invalid for no reason.

[PlsNoBan]

l told you why I am doing this before. I am not going to let trolls drown out real facts with nonsense posts.

You're telling everyone to ignore "trolls" and not ignoring any of them yourself. This seems contradictory. If your goal is simply to provide silent readers with the data and facts that you believe are correct then just post that and let the reader decipher what's true and what's trolling. What benefit is there to be gained by replying and arguing with trolls? If you're correct and your goal is to provide silent readers with data then just keep copy pasting and stop responding to troll posts. If you respond the trolls win (assuming they're actually trolling)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're telling everyone to ignore "trolls" and not ignoring any of them yourself. This seems contradictory. If your goal is simply to provide silent readers with the data and facts that you believe are correct then just post that and let the reader decipher what's true and what's trolling. What benefit is there to be gained by replying and arguing with trolls? If you're correct and your goal is to provide silent readers with data then just keep copy pasting and stop responding to troll posts. If you respond the trolls win (assuming they're actually trolling)

The troll warning is for other readers, not for myself.

I always believe people can be redeemed. It is why I never block people.

Call me naive, but I think it is always possible to talk someone down from being an asshole troll. It's a win/win when it happens. I still hold no grudges.

[Karanis]

18803

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/YN2DSUG.gif

I gotta go to bed. Been fantastic talking to you as always DSM. Please think about what I said earlier. I'm not saying it to be an asshole or try to trick you into not getting the last word. I know you love the last word very much. It's a little insane to keep posting 1000+ times about this stupid bullshit. I'm pretty embarrassed at 1/2 your post count. Eventually you gotta let this go. There's nothing to be gained here.

Goodnight and I'm sure I'll see you tomorrow

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I gotta go to bed. Been fantastic talking to you as always DSM. Please think about what I said earlier. I'm not saying it to be an asshole or try to trick you into not getting the last word. I know you love the last word very much. It's a little insane to keep posting 1000+ times about this stupid bullshit. I'm pretty embarrassed at 1/2 your post count. Eventually you gotta let this go. There's nothing to be gained here.

Goodnight and I'm sure I'll see you tomorrow

Goodnight!

[Gloomlord]

The troll warning is for other readers, not for myself.

https://c.tenor.com/Elp6DxobGWkAAAAC/truman-show.gif

Seriously!

[Toxigen]

DSM has at least 1 post from all 24 hours of the day.

Let that sink in.

[PatChapp]

Sleep is overrated. Arguing about elf sim is life.

Apologies if I offended anyone.
It's also an ogre sim.

[Troxx]

Wow we just celebrated the 300th page and are already solidly past that.

Definitely making it to 400.

I vote we celebrate that milestone with “The Office” gifs

https://c.tenor.com/cs_ERhD15zMAAAAC/dwight-dwight-schrute.gif

[cyxthryth]

l told you why I am doing this before. I am not going to let trolls drown out real facts with nonsense posts.

Trolls do not get to win debates this way.

I am calling you a troll because of your behavior, not because I am insulting you.

If my data is incorrect or my math is wrong, you need to show why.

Simply claiming my math or data is invalid is not an argument. It is a fallacy at best, and trolling at worst. All of the people I claim as trolls are doing the same thing of assuming my data/math is invalid for no reason.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

and here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Again, DSM - of course - did not directly reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

Hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread. They are just trolling. They have accumulated over 1000 posts that are literally just memes and insults between them. They shouldn't since this isn't RnF, but they seem to enjoy being silly in this thread.

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

Thanks for the logs Allishia! It is much easier to do parsing this way. Based on the logs the Epic Pet is doing 80-90 DPS. For strong manning the argument, I will use a 90 DPS parse that also had a good number of damage shield hits. This is a mana dumping situation, not a situation where you are conserving mana between fights:

======Mage DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Burnout IV and a Muzzle.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:32 2022] Vibann tells you, 'Attacking an elemental crusader Master.'
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:33 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:34 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:35 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:36 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:37 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:38 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:39 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 48 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:45 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 40 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:48 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 53 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:50 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:53 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 25 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 23 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:56 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 56 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 64 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:58 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 38 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:00 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] An elemental crusader bashes Vibann for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 32 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:03 2022] Vibann bashes an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 84 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:05 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 61 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 35 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:08 2022] Vibann kicks an elemental crusader for 27 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] An elemental crusader hits Vibann for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:10 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 67 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] Vibann hits an elemental crusader for 45 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 143 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:14 2022] You gain experience!!


Pet Damage: 3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

Scars of Sigil Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:41 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:47 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:52 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:07 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:12 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 450 points of damage.


Scars of Sigil Damage: 3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS

======Epic Mage DPS No Damage Shield======

3805 in 42 seconds = 90.6 DPS

3150 in 42 seconds = 75 DPS for 1225 mana in 14 seconds (no specialization bonus due to spell being Evocation) 1225 - 200 mana from meditate = 1025 mana lost in the minute.

6955 in 42 seconds = 165.6 DPS

======Shaman DPS Parse======

In the logs the pet is confirmed to have Celerity, Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Pet DPS Parse:

[Thu Aug 25 14:20:03 2022] Lonann tells you, 'Attacking a sebilite golem Master.'
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:04 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 15 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:05 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:07 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:10 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:13 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 50 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:14 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 19 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:17 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 16 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:18 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:25 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 42 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:27 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 14 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:28 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 40 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 38 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:30 2022] Lonann kicks a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:32 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 28 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:33 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:35 2022] Lonann bashes a sebilite golem for 24 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:36 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 36 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:38 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:40 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:41 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:43 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.
[Thu Aug 25 14:20:48 2022] Lonann bites a sebilite golem for 52 points of damage.


Pet Damage: 940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

Bane of Nife Damage: 150 + (214 x 6) = 1434 for 425 mana in 5 seconds

Ice Strike Damage : 675 x 4 = 2700 for 1000 mana in 28 seconds

======Shaman DPS No Damage Shield======

940 in 42 seconds = 22.4 DPS

4134 in 42 seconds = 98.4 DPS for 1425 mana - 416 mana cannibalized back (Torpor specialization bonus) in 27 seconds = 1009 mana lost in the minute.

5074 in 42 seconds = 120.8 DPS

======DPS Difference without Damage Shield======

Difference without Damage Shield = 165.6 DPS - 120.8 DPS = 44.8 DPS while both the Shaman and Mage spend 1000 mana total

======Damage Shield======

Damage Shield Parse:

[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:42 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:44 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:46 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:49 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:51 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:54 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:55 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:57 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:54:59 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:01 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:02 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:06 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:09 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:11 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.
[Mon Jul 04 19:55:13 2022] an elemental crusader was hit by non-melee for 50 points of damage.


======DPS Difference with Damage Shield======

Subtracting 11 from the Damage Shield number. The assumption is there will be an Enchanter in the party, which means you will always have a minimum damage shield of 11 via Feedback.

DPS added by damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 22.3 DPS

DPS added by damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is Tanking: (50 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 6.7 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x 24 / 42 = 12.5 DPS

DPS added by cast damage shield on slowed mob, assuming Epic Pet is not Tanking: (33 - 11) x (24 * 0.3) / 42 = 3.8 DPS

Difference with Damage Shield = 48.6-67.1 DPS, depending on slow/tanking situation.

======DPS Difference in the Four Man Group======

The two groups are going to be Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman and Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage.

According to Troxx's data, the average DPS a level 47 charmed pet with Enchanter haste and a Torch was doing 86 DPS.

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 120.8 (Shaman) + 6.3 (Enchanter Damage Shield) = 299.1 DPS

If two Enchanters are in the group, the DPS is 86 (Enchanter) + 86 (Enchanter) + 165.6 (Mage) + 18.8 (Mage Damage Shield) = 356.4 DPS with a Shaman.

DPS Difference in the Four Man Group = 57.3 DPS

======DPS Breakpoints in the Four Man Group======

This is assuming the group is killing a mob with 8000 HP. The mob in the Mage parse had 8000 HP when you include the damage shield damage.

8000 HP / 299.1 DPS = 26.75 seconds per kill.

8000 HP / 356.4 DPS = 22.45 seconds per kill.

DPS Difference in kill speed = 4.3 seconds

It turns out both sides were right. At least Epic Mages are doing higher DPS than Troxx's data, but the extra DPS doesn't really matter when looking at the breakpoints.

For reference, Fungi King has 17750 HP according to the wiki. That means a group with a Shaman is killing him in 59.3 seconds, and a group with a mage is killing him in 49.8 seconds. That means you are saving a grand total of 9.5 seconds per Fungi King/PH kill. You would kill Fungi King (1620 seconds respawn / 9.5 second saved) = 170 times in a row to get an extra spawn. That is 85 hours continuously camping the mob.

We don't have raw log data for a focused level 60 water pet, which will be much more common. Therefore I cannot currently confirm the DPS difference between a normal Mage and an Epic Mage. Right now Troxx's data is all we have for the level 60 Water Pet, which is lower than the Epic Pet.

It is up to the reader to decide if they think 4.3 seconds per kill is worth losing all the utility a Shaman has to offer. This is if choosing an Epic Mage over a Shaman in a four man group where you are choosing between Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage or Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman.

I do agree with OP's choice of Necromancer/Enchanter/Shaman/Mage. With this combination you have maximum access to all camps via these classes utility, while hitting the DPS threshold. You could level up a pocket cleric for easier resing and CHing if you desire, you only need to level it to 49 for 90% res and CH.

[cyxthryth]

Reposting the current state of the discussion:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":


OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum


The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

and here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:


Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Again, DSM - of course - did not directly reply to me for some reason, and has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM has as of yet not replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.


No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe. :)

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe. :)

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


The ball is in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) (which change when he moves goalposts & edits his posts) hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

Please ignore PlsNoBan, Troxx, Cyxthryth, Gloomlord, Karanis, Toxigen, Ripqozko, cd288, and Chortles Snortles in this thread.

(Rest of DSM copy/paste msg redacted as a courtesy for your eyeballs)

https://i.imgur.com/aqBZ5hi.gif

[plzrelax]

Skipping this page

[Toxigen]

imagine rogean happening across this thread and just permabanning all of us

[PlsNoBan]

I'm still waiting for VQ leadership to notice how badly one of their members is representing them here

[Ripqozko]

I'm still waiting for VQ leadership to notice how badly one of their members is representing them here

This is Normal to them

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm still waiting for VQ leadership to notice how badly one of their members is representing them here

I think they are noticing how poorly everybody else is acting instead.

Over 1000 insult/meme/troll posts in a non RnF thread. Yikes.

Trolling is not a winning strategy when you want to look good.

Nor is it a winning strategy for winning a debate.

[cyxthryth]

I think they are noticing how poorly everybody else is acting instead.

Over 1000 insult/meme/troll posts in a non RnF thread. Yikes.

Trolling is not a winning strategy when you want to look good.

Nor is it a winning strategy for winning a debate.


For the sake of civil discussion, can you please provide the definition of "troll(s)" and "win" that you are using? :)

[PlsNoBan]

I think they are noticing how poorly everybody else is acting instead.

Over 1000 insult/meme/troll posts in a non RnF thread. Yikes.

Trolling is not a winning strategy when you want to look good.

Nor is it a winning strategy for winning a debate.

I keep forgetting that common sense has to be explained to you. Why would a guild care about the behavior of a bunch of random trolls on the forums? Guilds care (or at least they should) about their members and how those members represent the guild as a whole. No guild cares about how random other people act. How you're behaving in this thread is a super bad look on any guild that's aware of it and doing nothing about it. As was mentioned before you're either A: trolling yourself or B: feeding trolls. There is no other option for your actions here since every poster is labeled a troll by you. So you have 1000+ posts representing your guild as either a troll or a troll feeder (which is honestly just a troll as well). Neither is a great look.

Please don't double down on this point. It's super dumb and you can easily just walk away from it and pretend you never said it and try to deflect if anyone calls you on it. I know you're good at that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I keep forgetting that common sense has to be explained to you. Why would a guild care about the behavior of a bunch of random trolls on the forums? Guilds care (or at least they should) about their members and how those members represent the guild as a whole. No guild cares about how random other people act. How you're behaving in this thread is a super bad look on any guild that's aware of it and doing nothing about it. As was mentioned before you're either A: trolling yourself or B: feeding trolls. There is no other option for your actions here since every poster is labeled a troll by you. So you have 1000+ posts representing your guild as either a troll or a troll feeder. Neither is a great look.

Please don't double down on this point. It's super dumb and you can easily just walk away from it and pretend you never said it and try to deflect if anyone calls you on it. I know you're good at that.

I am not acting poorly or trolling here. I am simply defending myself from trolls like yourself. You are the reason why the thread is bloated. You are the one who can't walk away because simple math and data offends you for some reason.

It is really sad you literally changed your signature to have strawmen from this thread included in it. Someone just can't let go.

[PlsNoBan]

I am not acting poorly or trolling here.

You absolutely are and would be instantaneously kicked from any guild I had any authority in. If everyone else but you in this thread is a troll then you're equally as bad for feeding trolls 1000+ times. You're acting like an infant with your "Please ignore blablabla" copy paste post over and over. If you can't see how this looks bad you're truly hopeless.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You absolutely are and would be instantaneously kicked from any guild I had any authority in. If everyone else but you in this thread is a troll then you're equally as bad for feeding trolls 1000+ times. You're acting like an infant with your "Please ignore blablabla" copy paste post over and over. If you can't see how this looks bad you're truly hopeless.

Your actions are the only thing guilds would be skeptical of. You just meme/insult/troll anybody who disagrees with you.

If a guild told you an encounter works a certain way, you would just call them autistic and do something else.

You clearly don't care about factual realities of the game.

[cyxthryth]

I am not acting poorly or trolling here. I am simply defending myself from trolls like yourself. You are the reason why the thread is bloated. You are the one who can't walk away because simple math and data offends you for some reason.


For the sake of civil discussion, can you please provide the definition of "troll(s)" and "win" that you are using? :)

You have provided zero evidence (nor logic or math) that supports your apparent claim that you are not acting poorly or trolling.

You have provided zero evidence (nor logic or math) that supports your - repeated - claims that others are trolls/trolling.

These are irrefutable facts - which you cannot refute.

Another problem is your post seems to imply/reveal/indicate/betray that you believe that others and/or another particular or specific poster should "walk away" (for some reason) simply because you - seemingly - believe that you have knowledge of what offends them, and can therefore make an objective claim about what offends them, such as that "simple math and data offends them for some reason", and you - apparently - believe that therefore they should "walk away" (even though you and your thoughts have no authority over them whatsoever). Since you have provided zero evidence to support your claim (nor math or logic), it is simply unsubstantiated (and probably false).

[cyxthryth]

Your actions are the only thing guilds would be skeptical of. You just meme/insult/troll anybody who disagrees with you.

You have provided zero evidence (nor logic or math) that supports your apparent claim that you are not acting poorly or trolling.

You have provided zero evidence (nor logic or math) that supports your - repeated - claims that others are trolls/trolling.

These are irrefutable facts - which you cannot refute.

If a guild told you an encounter works a certain way, you would just call them autistic and do something else.

You have provided zero evidence to support the Quoted claim, and it is therefore simply unsubstantiated (and probably false).

You clearly don't care about factual realities of the game.

You do not know what others care about, and therefore simply cannot make objective statements about what others care about; you may choose to post whatever you would like, it will not - and cannot - change this simple fact.

[PlsNoBan]

Your actions are the only thing guilds would be skeptical of. You just meme/insult/troll anybody who disagrees with you.

If a guild told you an encounter works a certain way, you would just call them autistic and do something else.

You clearly don't care about factual realities of the game.

Yeah here's the thing you moron. Wanna hear a secret? I'm not representing any guilds in this thread. I can call you out for the retard that you're acting like and it doesn't look bad on anyone else cause I have no affiliation. Not a single person here even knows my character names. I could stop using this forum account and as far as anyone here knows I ceased to exist. The dumbassery you've displayed here is directly linked to your characters and your guild (and not in a good way)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah here's the thing you moron. Wanna hear a secret? I'm not representing any guilds in this thread. I can call you out for the retard that you're acting like and it doesn't look bad on anyone else cause I have no affiliation. Not a single person here even knows my character names. I could stop using this forum account and as far as anyone here knows I ceased to exist. The dumbassery you've displayed here is directly linked to your characters and your guild (and not in a good way)

That is your opinion. You really are so desperate to win in any way possible that you have to try and bring my guild into it.

You wouldn't have to try and censor people you disagree with by any means possible if you had a good argument.

[PlsNoBan]

That is your opinion. You really are so desperate to win in any way possible that you have to try and bring my guild into it.

You wouldn't have to try and censor people you disagree with by any means possible if you had a good argument.

Literally every person in this thread realizes there is no possible way to have an honest argument with you because you're unable to argue honestly. Do you ever stop to wonder why people gave up trying to have honest arguments with you? I'll give you a hint: It's not because you're right and they just couldn't handle it

Keep on makin VQ look bad tho. I'm sure they appreciate it.

[cyxthryth]

That is your opinion. You really are so desperate to win in any way possible that you have to try and bring my guild into it.

It may be your opinion that another poster is "desperate to win in any way possible", but that would simply be just that - your opinion hehe. :)

You have provided zero evidence to support your post's apparent implication that you are somehow able to make objective claims about others' "desperation" while providing zero evidence to support said claims - which means that they are simply unsubstantiated (and probably false). This really isn't hard hehe. :)

You wouldn't have to try and censor people you disagree with by any means possible if you had a good argument.

You wouldn't have to - seemingly - ignore my posts if you were able to refute my points or answer my questions without revealing that you have been backed into a corner "arguing" from bad faith (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument), nor have you provided any relevant data/evidence/logic/math to support your various claims/positions/arguments (which change when you move goalposts & edit your posts) hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Literally every person in this thread realizes there is no possible way to have an honest argument with you because you're unable to argue honestly. Do you ever stop to wonder why people gave up trying to have honest arguments with you? I'll give you a hint: It's not because you're right and they just couldn't handle it

Keep on makin VQ look bad tho. I'm sure they appreciate it.

I am bringing factual data and math to the discussion, and I engage with anybody who isn't trolling in a respectful manner.

I am sorry that simply claiming my data is invalid because you don't like it is not a valid method of argumentation.

The only thing people can see in this thread is all of the trolls who just keep throwing tantrums because they can't have an honest discussion where people disagree with them.

The post history is quite clear who the trolls are here in this thread.

The reason why people don't post here is because anybody who disagrees with the trolls are relentlessly trolled lol. It happens every time.

[PlsNoBan]

The post history is the clearest thing that has ever been clear before

You're extremely dishonest in your arguments and are quite possibly the most stubborn thick headed person I've ever encountered in my life IRL or on the internet. The post history shows this very clearly for all to see. This is why people have largely given up trying to have legitimate debate with you. You've moved the goalpost dozens of times. You assert your opinions as facts and dismiss others opinions. You have an extreme bias that you're unable to hide or get rid of. The post history shows all of this with extreme clarity. Not sure why you would want to draw attention to the post history here. It doesn't look good for you. I'd rather make funny meme/troll posts than serious posts where I argue dishonestly constantly and act like a stubborn child.

Every post makes VQ look worse and worse. Unfortunate for them :(

[cyxthryth]

I am bringing factual data and math to the discussion, and I engage with anybody who isn't trolling in a respectful manner.

No. You have simply provided irrelevant data, and you have continued to ignore my posts - and multiple posts of others, or specific content from their posts - which have explained this to you via simple statements of irrefutable facts - which cannot be refuted. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

I am sorry that simply claiming my data is invalid because you don't like it is not a valid method of argumentation.

You have provided zero relevant data/evidence to support the Quoted implication that others have "simply claimed your data is invalid because they don't like it", thus it is simply an unsubstantiated implication (and probably false).

The only thing people can see in this thread is all of the trolls who just keep throwing tantrums because they can't have an honest discussion where people disagree with them.


The post history is quite clear who the trolls are here in this thread.



You have provided zero evidence (nor logic or math) that supports your apparent claim that you are not acting poorly or trolling.

You have provided zero evidence (nor logic or math) that supports your - repeated - claims that others are trolls/trolling.

These are irrefutable facts - which you cannot refute.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The post history is the clearest thing that has ever been clear before

You're extremely dishonest in your arguments and are quite possibly the most stubborn thick headed person I've ever encountered in my life IRL or on the internet. The post history shows this very clearly for all to see. This is why people have largely given up trying to have legitimate debate with you. You've moved the goalpost dozens of times. You assert your opinions as facts and dismiss others opinions. You have an extreme bias that you're unable to hide or get rid of. The post history shows all of this with extreme clarity. Not sure why you would want to draw attention to the post history here. It doesn't look good for you. I'd rather make funny meme/troll posts than serious posts where I argue dishonestly constantly and act like a stubborn child.

Again, this is your opinion, with no basis in fact.

The idea I have a bias towards Shamans is another strawman.

I am not sure how bringing data and math from the actual game is a dishonest argument.

I am not sure how saying 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is "napkin math", and worthy of being derided.

You are the person who is asserting their opinions as facts and dismissing everything else.

If you honestly thought my math/data was incorrect, you would be able to say why. You can't say why, so you just dismiss it lol. You are basically describing yourself here, and don't realize it.

[PlsNoBan]

Again, this is your opinion, with no basis in fact.

The idea I have a bias towards Shamans is another strawman.

I am not sure how bringing data and math from the actual game is a dishonest argument.

I am not sure how saying 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is "napkin math", and worthy of being derided.

You are the person who is asserting their opinions as facts and dismissing everything else. If you honestly thought my math/data was incorrect, you would be able to say why. You can't say why, so you just dismiss it lol.

What the fuck are you even talking about? 20 x 10 x 60 does in fact = 12000. We're in agreement there. Congratulations. Not sure how this is even relevant to anything that's been discussed in the last few pages? Why the fuck are we talking about mana per hour right now and how is that relevant? What kind of drugs are you on?

VQ please. Save yourself some embarrassment here and do something.

[cyxthryth]

Again, this is your opinion, with no basis in fact.

It is unclear what - specifically - you are - laughably - attempting to objectively state is the Quoted poster's opinion. Please elaborate?

The idea I have a bias towards Shamans is another strawman.

For the sake of civil discussion, can you please provide the definition you are using for "strawman"?

I am not sure how bringing data and math from the actual game is a dishonest argument.

I am not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you - still - think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


I am not sure how saying 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is "napkin math", and worthy of being derided.

I am not sure why your post would seem to indicate that you believe that "saying 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation" is somehow relevant to this discussion. Please elaborate?

You are the person who is asserting their opinions as facts and dismissing everything else.

You have provided zero evidence to support the claim that someone else "is the person who is asserting their opinions as facts and dismissing everything else", therefore, the claim is simply unsubstantiated (and probably false).

If you honestly thought my math/data was incorrect, you would be able to say why. You can't say why, so you just dismiss it lol.

I am not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you - still - think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What the fuck are you even talking about? 20 x 10 x 60 does in fact = 12000. We're in agreement there. Congratulations. Not sure how this is even relevant to anything that's been discussed in the last few pages? Why the fuck are we talking about mana per hour right now and how is that relevant? What kind of drugs are you on?

VQ please. Save yourself some embarrassment here and do something.

This is easy, because the math you keep claiming is "invalid" that I have been using has the exact same principle.

If you agree 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is correct, then you will also agree with these DPS breakpoints:

100 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 80 seconds.

200 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 40 seconds.

400 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 20 seconds.

If we are in agreement with this, then I am not sure where my argument was dishonest, my math incorrect, or my data invalid. You haven't explained any of this, and just keep dismissing everything I say.

[cyxthryth]

This is easy, because the math you keep claiming is "invalid" that I have been using has the exact same principle.

If you agree 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is correct, then you will also agree with these DPS breakpoints:

100 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 80 seconds.

200 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 40 seconds.

400 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 20 seconds.

If we are in agreement with this, then I am not sure where my argument was dishonest, my math incorrect, or my data invalid. You haven't explained any of this, and just keep dismissing everything I say.

I am not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you - still - think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).

[PlsNoBan]

This is easy, because the math you keep claiming is "invalid" that I have been using has the exact same principle.

If you agree 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is correct, then you will also agree with these DPS breakpoints:

100 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 80 seconds.

200 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 40 seconds.

400 DPS will kill a mob with 8000 HP in 20 seconds.

If we are in agreement with this, then I am not sure where my argument was dishonest, my math incorrect, or my data invalid. You haven't explained any of this, and just keep dismissing everything I say.

I literally addressed this multiple times and you just seem to ignore it. Or once again your opinion disagrees and obviously your opinion is correct and nobody elses is so you dismiss it. Or you move the goalpost again.etc.etc

Your entire "DPS breakpoint" argument is retarded for a long list of reasons. First of which being that DPS varies. No combination of classes and/or pets will ever do exactly 200 dps to every mob. You keep trying to precisely math out everything and act like everything is going to be exactly the way you math it even if you change conditions or variables. This tells me you have absolutely zero experience in programming or any kind of software development. Unexpected things happen all the time. This is the entire point of things like unit tests. No human being can 100% accurately predict the outcome of such a complex system with all the different variables and conditions present. Despite what you may think the code running behind the scenes in a game like everquest is fairly complex. Not to mention introducing the unpredictability of human behavior into the equation.

All of that set aside. Even if you were 100% correct about your assessment. You'd still be wrong in assuming that just because you don't get an extra named/PH spawn in a short play session that additional DPS is completely worthless. This is just straight up factually incorrect. It's nothing but your opinion that you've been spewing as fact for dozens of pages. There are tons of people that play this game for super long periods of time per session. I used to regularly play 12-16 hour days at one point in my life. Back when I was younger and unemployed. If I'm not mistaken your own calculation said an extra named cycle would be gained at 11 hours. There are many people that play that long or longer per day. Even if you DON'T get an extra named/PH cycle you can still kill additional mobs per hour. Many many camps (including fungi king that we use as an example often here) has A LOT of mobs within pulling range. I don't know about you but I prefer to play the game and not kill 3 spawns and go AFK for 25 minutes. More trash kills = objectively better. Even if its only a minimal benefit.

Ultimately I think the main crux of the disagreement is that you place an insanely high value on the utility and "safety" aspect that you feel a shaman brings. This isn't backed by data or math. This is simply your preference/opinion being asserted as fact. So far everyone here except you agrees (If you quote fucking argumentum ad populum one more time I swear to fuck) that a group with a cleric and 2 enchanters has MORE than sufficient utility and safety. This is why everyone keeps saying "redundant" in reference to shaman. They don't really bring anything the group doesn't already have. I leveled a enc/enc duo with no healer and we legitimately died like less than 5 times the entire leveling process. I honestly think it was 2 or 3 times over dozens of LONG sessions. It's not an exaggeration to say a cleric is the only safety net this group needs. You don't need to be gods gift to everquest or a pro player or any of that nonsense. 2 reasonably well played enchanters and 1 halfway decent cleric is an unstoppable killing machine. You're kind of an insane person if you really think that group is like "Oh man I really wish we had a shaman so we don't wipe". That's fucking ridiculous man. I know how much you love your class but get fucking real.

Summary: Enc/Enc/Clr doesn't NEED anything. The only real benefit to be gained is more DPS or perhaps some utility the group doesn't already have. Shaman DPS is pretty mediocre and almost all of their utility the group already has. Thus they would not be anyone's (except DSM's) first choice as the 4th filler for this group.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I literally addressed this multiple times and you just seem to ignore it. Or once again your opinion disagrees and obviously your opinion is correct and nobody elses is so you dismiss it. Or you move the goalpost again.etc.etc

Your entire "DPS breakpoint" argument is retarded for a long list of reasons. First of which being that DPS varies. No combination of classes and/or pets will ever do exactly 200 dps to every mob. You keep trying to precisely math out everything and act like everything is going to be exactly the way you math it even if you change conditions or variables. This tells me you have absolutely zero experience in programming or any kind of software development. Unexpected things happen all the time. This is the entire point of things like unit tests. No human being can 100% accurately predict the outcome of such a complex system with all the different variables and conditions present. Despite what you may think the code running behind the scenes in a game like everquest is fairly complex. Not to mention introducing the unpredictability of human behavior into the equation.

All of that set aside. Even if you were 100% correct about your assessment. You'd still be wrong in assuming that just because you don't get an extra named/PH spawn in a short play session that additional DPS is completely worthless. This is just straight up factually incorrect. It's nothing but your opinion that you've been spewing as fact for dozens of pages. There are tons of people that play this game for super long periods of time per session. I used to regularly play 12-16 hour days at one point in my life. Back when I was younger and unemployed. If I'm not mistaken your own calculation said an extra named cycle would be gained at 11 hours. There are many people that play that long or longer per day. Even if you DON'T get an extra named/PH cycle you can still kill additional mobs per hour. Many many camps (including fungi king that we use as an example often here) has A LOT of mobs within pulling range. I don't know about you but I prefer to play the game and not kill 3 spawns and go AFK for 25 minutes. More trash kills = objectively better. Even if its only a minimal benefit.

Ultimately I think the main crux of the disagreement is that you place an insanely high value on the utility and "safety" aspect that you feel a shaman brings. This isn't backed by data or math. This is simply your preference/opinion being asserted as fact. So far everyone here except you agrees (If you quote fucking argumentum ad populum one more time I swear to fuck) that a group with a cleric and 2 enchanters has MORE than sufficient utility and safety. This is why everyone keeps saying "redundant" in reference to shaman. They don't really bring anything the group doesn't already have. I leveled a enc/enc duo with no healer and we legitimately died like less than 5 times the entire leveling process. It's not an exaggeration to say a cleric is the only safety net this group needs. You don't need to be gods gift to everquest or a pro player or any of that nonsense. 2 reasonably well played enchanters and 1 halfway decent cleric is an unstoppable killing machine. You're kind of an insane person if you really think that group is like "Oh man I really wish we had a shaman so we don't wipe". That's fucking ridiculous man. I know how much you love your class but get fucking real.

Summary: Enc/Enc/Clr doesn't NEED anything. The only real benefit to be gained is more DPS or perhaps some utility the group doesn't already have. Shaman DPS is pretty mediocre and almost all of their utility the group already has. Thus they would not be anyone (except DSM's) first choice as the 4th filler for this group.

If you don't get more kills per hour via DPS, then it is redundant. I find it strange you keep saying that Shaman utility is redundant with a negative context, but somehow when DPS is redundant it isn't a bad thing.

This is the problem. It is odd to keep claiming that Shaman utility is redundant, and therefore worthless, but the equally redundant DPS (which isn't getting you more kills per session) is not worthless.

That is where we disagree. No group I have ever been a part of was clamoring to have a 21 minute AFK instead of a 20 minute AFK in between cycles. The 1 minute you save per cycle by adding the extra DPS of the Mage is literally meaningless.

The Shaman offers a broader toolkit which can be used at any time. Therefore it is more useful than the 1 minute saved on AFK time nobody is going to notice.

I don't know why this bothers you. It is backed up by the basic math. Of course DPS varies on a per encounter basis. But in a game of averages like Everquest, it evens out in the end more or less. Unless you get insanely unlucky and parse low for 10 hours straight (which I have never seen), your average DPS will look similar in the end.

[Toxigen]

3rd enc
mage
necro/druid (depending on if you want to do undead or animal charm dungeons)
shaman
wizard
2nd cleric

thats how it goes in order from most to least gudder caster/priest only 4th with enc/enc/cleric base 3 man

can we get this on page 1 and nuke the other 314 pages of DSM sperging out?

thank you all for coming out to this textbook display of autism

[cyxthryth]

If you don't get more kills per hour via DPS, then it is redundant. I find it strange you keep saying that Shaman utility is redundant with a negative context, but somehow when DPS is redundant it isn't a bad thing.

The Quote above is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of what is redundant and strange; which is simply your opinion.

This is the problem. It is odd to keep claiming that Shaman utility is redundant, and therefore worthless, but the equally redundant DPS (which isn't getting you more kills per session) is not worthless.

The Quote above is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of "what the problem is" and "what is odd"; which is simply your onpinon.

That is where we disagree. No group I have ever been a part of was clamoring to have a 21 minute AFK instead of a 20 minute AFK in between cycles. The 1 minute you save per cycle by adding the extra DPS of the Mage is literally meaningless.

The problem with the above Quote is that you have claimed the "1 minute you save by adding extra DPS" is "literally meaningless"; which is of course objectively false and therefore laughable to claim. Objectively, that extra DPS simply "meant" that the group who performed said DPS "saved 1 minute".

If it is your opinion that saving 1 minute is "meaningless", then that is simply your opinion. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

The Shaman offers a broader toolkit which can be used at any time. Therefore it is more useful than the 1 minute saved on AFK time nobody is going to notice.

The Quote above is simply an example of you sharing your opinion about what is "more useful"; which is simply your opinion.

I don't know why this bothers you. It is backed up by the basic math. Of course DPS varies on a per encounter basis. But in a game of averages like Everquest, it evens out in the end more or less. Unless you get insanely unlucky and parse low for 10 hours straight (which I have never seen), your average DPS will look similar in the end.

I do not know why the Quote above seems to indicate that you believe that you are aware of what bothers other posters, and can make therefore objective claims concerning what bothers them such as that "this" (whatever that is) bothers them.

[PlsNoBan]

If you don't get more kills per hour via DPS, then it is redundant. I find it strange you keep saying that Shaman utility is redundant with a negative context, but somehow when DPS is redundant it isn't a bad thing.

This is the problem. It is odd to keep claiming that Shaman utility is redundant, and therefore worthless, but the equally redundant DPS (which isn't getting you more kills per session) is not worthless.

That is where we disagree. No group I have ever been a part of was clamoring to have a 21 minute AFK instead of a 20 minute AFK in between cycles. The 1 minute you save per cycle by adding the extra DPS of the Mage is literally meaningless.

The Shaman offers a broader toolkit which can be used at any time. Therefore it is more useful than the 1 minute saved on AFK time nobody is going to notice.

I don't know why this bothers you. It is backed up by the basic math. Of course DPS varies on a per encounter basis. But in a game of averages like Everquest, it evens out in the end more or less. Unless you get insanely unlucky and parse low for 10 hours straight (which I have never seen), your average DPS will look similar in the end.

You didn't even read my post did you? Lol. This is exactly why people give up on arguing with you man. You're fucking IMPOSSIBLE.

I personally would NEVER choose to camp something like fungi king and clear 3-4 spawns and go AFK for 20+ minutes. I'd much rather continue actually playing the game in between PH's and killing shit. Even if its only for minimal trash loot. You also get the added benefit of buffer xp assuming not every single player is 99% into 60 all the time. Additional DPS 100% gets you more kills if you're continually killing things. There are TONS of available mobs that can be pulled at fungi camp. Respawns are far too slow in this game for any realistic amount of DPS to gain you extra named cycles in a short timeframe. But I'm guessing you know this and that's exactly why you keep bringing up this argument. Because you know shaman DPS sucks and this was the best argument you could come up with for why more DPS doesn't matter. Even though it's a shitty argument and everyone (including you deep down) knows it. If you've been consistent about one thing this entire thread it has been that you try to spin everything you possibly can to be in favor of shamans. Even going as far as answering the "What's the best 4 man caster/priest group?" question with "Actually it's a 5 man group with a pocket cleric cause I love shamans so much".

[Toxigen]

You didn't even read my post did you? Lol. This is exactly why people give up on arguing with you man. You're fucking IMPOSSIBLE.

I personally would NEVER choose to camp something like fungi king and clear 3-4 spawns and go AFK for 20+ minutes. I'd much rather continue actually playing the game in between PH's and killing shit. Even if its only for minimal trash loot. You also get the added benefit of buffer xp assuming not every single player is 99% into 60 all the time. Additional DPS 100% gets you more kills if you're continually killing things. There are TONS of available mobs that can be pulled at fungi camp. Respawns are far too slow in this game for any realistic amount of DPS to gain you extra named cycles in a short timeframe. But I'm guessing you know this and that's exactly why you keep bringing up this argument. Because you know shaman DPS sucks and this was the best argument you could come up with for why more DPS doesn't matter. Even though it's a shitty argument and everyone (including you deep down) knows it. If you've been consistent about one thing this entire thread it has been that you try to spin everything you possibly can to be in favor of shamans. Even going as far as answering the "What's the best 4 man caster/priest group?" question with "Actually it's a 5 man group with a pocket cleric cause I love shamans so much".

Yeah as a 4 man you'd want to clear some extras anyway. You've got the firepower to do it, and makes it much cleaner / quicker to pull the PH into camp as soon as it pops.

Plus, spells + cobalt bracers + buffer xp is pretty rad.

[PlsNoBan]

3rd enc
mage
necro/druid (depending on if you want to do undead or animal charm dungeons)
shaman
wizard
2nd cleric

thats how it goes in order from most to least gudder caster/priest only 4th with enc/enc/cleric base 3 man

can we get this on page 1 and nuke the other 314 pages of DSM sperging out?

thank you all for coming out to this textbook display of autism

I agree with this list. I think you could make an argument that necro or druid would be even better than mage IF you're solely doing camps where animal or undead charms respectively are available. But mage is definitely better overall for the cases where charms aren't available.

Also does anyone else find it funny that like 3 different people in this thread have high or max lvl mages AND shamans and all unanimously agree mage is better for this hypothetical group makeup? But somehow the guy that only has a shaman and some rough math based on data from different conditions than the question at hand is 100% sure he's correct?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You didn't even read my post did you? Lol. This is exactly why people give up on arguing with you man. You're fucking IMPOSSIBLE.

I personally would NEVER choose to camp something like fungi king and clear 3-4 spawns and go AFK for 20+ minutes. I'd much rather continue actually playing the game in between PH's and killing shit. Even if its only for minimal trash loot. You also get the added benefit of buffer xp assuming not every single player is 99% into 60 all the time. Additional DPS 100% gets you more kills if you're continually killing things. There are TONS of available mobs that can be pulled at fungi camp. Respawns are far too slow in this game for any realistic amount of DPS to gain you extra named cycles in a short timeframe. But I'm guessing you know this and that's exactly why you keep bringing up this argument. Because you know shaman DPS sucks and this was the best argument you could come up with for why more DPS doesn't matter. Even though it's a shitty argument and everyone (including you deep down) knows it. If you've been consistent about one thing this entire thread it has been that you try to spin everything you possibly can to be in favor of shamans. Even going as far as answering the "What's the best 4 man caster/priest group?" question with "Actually it's a 5 man group with a pocket cleric cause I love shamans so much".

I read your post perfectly. You are just making excuses again because you don't like what I have to say.

I personally have never been in a Fungi King group that pulls adds in between PH's. It's just an unnecessary risk for a group of players who is there for the Fungi Tunics, not XP and trash loot.

The problem is you keep assuming you are going to be getting extra kills per hour even when pulling mobs in-between named cycles. That takes longer because you are leaving the camp to pull from farther and farther away.

You need to show a camp where you think it is possible to get more kills per hour with a Mage vs. a Shaman. And again, you keep forgetting Shaman's can root/rot trash. It is amazing that you cannot admit root/rotting is a possible (and used) tactic in groups. JimJam saw this firsthand.

If you really want your Shaman to do more DPS, they can. Just because you keep limiting your Shamans in a group doesn't mean everybody else has to.

Finally, I never said a Mage/Necro/Enchanter/Shaman group needs a pocket cleric to function. They do not. They will work 100% fine without it. However, pocket clerics are a common part of P99, and something experienced players will have. So it should be considered. OP never said you couldn't bring one.

[Toxigen]

I agree with this list. I think you could make an argument that necro or druid would be even better than mage IF you're solely doing camps where animal or undead charms respectively are available. But mage is definitely better overall for the cases where charms aren't available.

Also does anyone else find it funny that like 3 different people in this thread have high or max lvl mages AND shamans and all unanimously agree mage is better for this hypothetical group makeup? But somehow the guy that only has a shaman and some rough math based on data from different conditions than the question at hand is 100% sure he's correct?

Yeah you could list it mage/necro/druid as tied for 2nd depending on group preferences. Mage edges out when no undead or animals around ofc.

[PlsNoBan]

I personally have never been in a Fungi King group that pulls adds in between PH's. It's just an unnecessary risk for a group of players who is there for the Fungi Tunics, not XP and trash loot.

I've never been in a fungi king group that didn't kill trash between PH's. It's boring as fuck to sit there doing nothing for 20+ minutes. It's not a fucking risk to kill trash with this group dude. With solid players at the keys this group could pull from jail cells to juggs all day long with 0 issues. Do you also not go outside cause it's an unnecessary risk you may be struck by lightning?

DPS stacks near infinitely. Utility and healing do not. This isn't a debatable topic my guy. This is about as simple as it gets.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I've never been in a fungi king group that didn't kill trash between PH's. It's boring as fuck to sit there doing nothing for 20+ minutes. It's not a fucking risk to kill trash with this group dude. With solid players at the keys this group could pull from jail cells to juggs all day long with 0 issues. Do you also not go outside cause it's an unnecessary risk you may be struck by lightning?

DPS stacks near infinitely. Utility and healing do not. This isn't a debatable topic my guy. This is about as simple as it gets.

DPS has diminishing returns when you stack it. The difference between 300 DPS and 350 DPS is 4.3 seconds on a mob with 8000 HP. It gets worse the higher the DPS number gets.

Having a broader toolkit and more camp options is better than 1 more minute of AFK time and no extra kills.

Having multiple healers does stack, because multiple people can be healed simultaneously. Having a dedicated slower allows the Enchanters to focus on keeping their pets charmed. These are all benefits.

[cyxthryth]

I read your post perfectly. You are just making excuses again because you don't like what I have to say.

The statement "You are just making excuses again because you don't like what I have to say." in the Quote above is yet another example of you simply sharing your opinion; which is simply your opinion.

I personally have never been in a Fungi King group that pulls adds in between PH's. It's just an unnecessary risk for a group of players who is there for the Fungi Tunics, not XP and trash loot.

The Quote above is simply an example of you sharing your opinion about what risks are necessary; which is simply your opinion.

The problem is you keep assuming you are going to be getting extra kills per hour even when pulling mobs in-between named cycles. That takes longer because you are leaving the camp to pull from farther and farther away.

You have provided zero evidence to support your implication that others or any particular other post "keeps assuming they are going to be getting extra kills per hour even when the pulling mobs in-between named cycles". You are not privy to what others assume, and you may post whatever you wish, it will not change this fact.

You need to show a camp where you think it is possible to get more kills per hour with a Mage vs. a Shaman. And again, you keep forgetting Shaman's can root/rot trash. It is amazing that you cannot admit root/rotting is a possible (and used) tactic in groups. JimJam saw this firsthand.

You have zero authority with which to tell others what they "need" to do. I am not sure why your post would indicate that you believe you have such authority.

You have implied in the above Quote that you have the ability to know and therefore be able to make objective claims about what another person does or does not remember. You have zero knowledge of what another person has remembered or forgotten, and you may post whatever you wish, it will not change this fact.

Your final sentence in the above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of what is amazing; which is simply your opinion.

If you really want your Shaman to do more DPS, they can. Just because you keep limiting your Shamans in a group doesn't mean everybody else has to.

The above Quote indicates that you believe others "want their Shaman to do more DPS" and that "they can", but you have provided zero relevant/factual evidence to support this claim, thus it is unsubstantiated (and probably false).

Additionally, the above Quote includes you making an objective statement that others "keep limiting their Shamans in a group" but you have provided zero relevant/factual evidence to support this claim, thus it is unsubstantiated (and probably false).

Finally, I never said a Mage/Necro/Enchanter/Shaman needs a pocket cleric to function. They do not. They will work 100% fine without it. However, pocket clerics are a common part of P99, and something experienced players will have. So it should be considered. OP never said you couldn't bring one.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of what should be considered; and is simply your opinion.

[PlsNoBan]

DPS has diminishing returns when you stack it. The difference between 300 DPS and 350 DPS is 4.3 seconds on a mob with 8000 HP. It gets worse the higher the DPS number gets.

Having a broader toolkit and more camp options is better than 1 more minute of AFK time and no extra kills.

Having multiple healers does stack, because multiple people can be healed simultaneously.

You gain more kills with more DPS if you don't kill 3 spawns and go AFK. This is another dishonest argument that's hell bent on changing the variables as much as possible to favor shaman. You couldn't make an honest argument if your life depended on it.

[cyxthryth]

DPS has diminishing returns when you stack it. The difference between 300 DPS and 350 DPS is 4.3 seconds on a mob with 8000 HP. It gets worse the higher the DPS number gets.

Having a broader toolkit and more camp options is better than 1 more minute of AFK time and no extra kills.

Having multiple healers does stack, because multiple people can be healed simultaneously. Having a dedicated slower allows the Enchanters to focus on keeping their pets charmed. These are all benefits.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of what "is better" and what "are benefits"; which are simply your opinions. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You gain more kills with more DPS if you don't kill 3 spawns and go AFK. This is another dishonest argument that's hell bent on changing the variables as much as possible to favor shaman. You couldn't make an honest argument if your life depended on it.

It is not. It depends on how many kills you get per hour.

If you are killing 20 mobs per 30 minutes, you are saving 4 x 20 = 80 seconds per 30 minutes.

That means you are saving 160 seconds per hour. To get another spawn cycle, you would need to wait 1800 seconds / 160 seconds = 11 hours. It's really simple math.

20 Mobs in a place like Chardok is a lot, since they are much harder. At that point the Shaman can DoT to increase their DPS.

If you are pulling trash like Sebilis Mobs, the Shaman can root/rot for extra DPS, and the gap shrinks between a Mage and a Shaman further.

Remember that I am using the Mage's best DPS too (an Epic Mage). We haven't gotten raw logs of what a Water Pet's DPS looks like, so we don't know the difference there. The reality is most Mages don't have their Epics.

[PlsNoBan]

If you're gonna base your group around killing 3 spawns and going AFK you might as well bring paladins as DPS. They're much safer and provide extra healing and utility u love so much. You'll get just as many cycles of 3 mobs in a short session. There's literally no benefit to the entire rogue class using this braindead logic.

[cyxthryth]

It is not. It depends on how many kills you get per hour.

If you are killing 20 mobs per 30 minutes, you are saving 4 x 20 = 80 seconds per 30 minutes.

That means you are saving 160 seconds per hour. To get another spawn cycle, you would need to wait 1800 seconds / 160 seconds = 11 hours. It's really simple math.

20 Mobs in a place like Chardok is a lot, since they are much harder. At that point the Shaman can DoT to increase their DPS.

If you are pulling trash like Sebilis Mobs, the Shaman can root/rot for extra DPS, and the gap shrinks between a Mage and a Shaman further.

Remember that I am using the Mage's best DPS too (an Epic Mage). We haven't gotten raw logs of what a Water Pet's DPS looks like, so we don't know the difference there.

I am not sure what - relevant - point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting in the above Quote. Remember, irrelevant information is simply not relevant to the discussion. Can you please elaborate on how the above Quote is relevant to the discussion?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you're gonna base your group around killing 3 spawns and going AFK you might as well bring paladins as DPS. They're much safer and provide extra healing and utility u love so much. You'll get just as many cycles of 3 mobs in a short session. There's literally no benefit to the entire rogue class using this braindead logic.

Please show me the level 60 camp that is pulling more than 20 mobs in a 30 minute respawn cycle, but is too difficult for a Shaman to root/rot. That isn't Sebilis, so you need to think of another place.

[PlsNoBan]

"Best group in EverQuest is Shaman Shaman Shaman Shaman Shaman Shadowknight" - DSM

[cyxthryth]

Please show me the level 60 camp that is pulling more than 20 mobs in a 30 minute respawn cycle, but is too difficult for a Shaman to root/rot. That isn't Sebilis, so you need to think of another place.

Please provide evidence that a Shaman's ability to root/rot is - objectively, not just in your opinion - relevant to the discussion.

[PlsNoBan]

Please show me the level 60 camp that is pulling more than 20 mobs in a 30 minute respawn cycle, but is too difficult for a Shaman to root/rot. That isn't Sebilis, so you need to think of another place.

It's not about being too difficult to root rot. It's the fact that root rotting in groups is retarded. Just get a class that does better DPS in a normal fashion. Root rotting is a solo tactic.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's not about being too difficult to root rot. It's the fact that root rotting in groups is retarded. Just get a class that does better DPS in a normal fashion. Root rotting is a solo tactic.

That is just your opinion. Your opinion does not dictate how everybody must play. If you cared about DPS, you would let your group DPS.

I cannot believe you keep arguing that DPS is always worth it, but somehow root/rotting in groups (to increase DPS) is not worth it.

It is contradictory.

[cyxthryth]

That is just your opinion. Your opinion does not dictate how everybody must play. If you cared about DPS, you would let your group DPS.

I cannot believe you keep arguing that DPS is always worth it, but somehow root/rotting in groups (to increase DPS) is not worth it.

It is contradictory.

This discussion is not about "how everybody must play", nor is it about what you can or cannot believe, so I am not sure what point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting, and since this discussion is - again - not about "how everybody must play" or what you can or cannot believe, the above Quote is simply an example of yet another irrelevant post from you.

This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[PlsNoBan]

That is just your opinion. Your opinion does not dictate how everybody must play. If you cared about DPS, you would let your group DPS.

I cannot believe you keep arguing that DPS is always worth it, but somehow root/rotting in groups (to increase DPS) is not worth it.

It is contradictory.

Lol alright man you win. Shaman is the best ever for everything. Root rotting adds in groups isn't retarded at all. Healing full hp targets is beneficial. More DPS is irrelevant. Warriors solo better than enchanters. You were right about all of it all along.

[PlsNoBan]

I guess one way to win arguments is refusing to give up and being so annoyingly obtuse that everyone else gives up talking to you. Not my preferred strategy but it's effective if you're willing to post complete bullshit over 1000 times like a psychopath

[Troxx]

Now that DSM has woken up anyone want to take bets what page we’ll be on by the time he goes to sleep again?

I think it’ll be ballpark of 340 at this rate. Maybe higher? What shall we celebrate page 400 with? I’m still thinking GiFs of The Office.

DSM has said nothing “new” in about 250 pages at this point. Minor tweaks? Sure. But nothing new other than having a pocket cleric around page 224 or so.

Anytime confronted with something that would change the mine of a sane person, his tactics are:

1) ignore it
2) redirect and distract
3) move the goalpost
4) or get the thread all in an unrelated tangent discussion ala #pocketCleric #warriorsSoloBetterthanEnchanters

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/bRF0RKl0Mo4AAAAM/the-office-dwight.gif

[cyxthryth]

I guess one way to win arguments is refusing to give up and being so annoyingly obtuse that everyone else gives up talking to you. Not my preferred strategy but it's effective if you're willing to post complete bullshit over 1000 times like a psychopath

Perhaps such behavior may indeed be a way to "win" arguments (I cannot quantify this since DSM has yet to provide the definition for "win" that he is using) but it is certainly not the way to have a civil discussion like a reasonable, responsible, mature adult who has math and logic on their side and is therefore capable of supporting their stance/positions/claims with relevant factual data/evidence, hehe. :)


Now that DSM has woken up anyone want to take bets what page we’ll be on by the time he goes to sleep again?

I think it’ll be ballpark of 340 at this rate. Maybe higher? What shall we celebrate page 400 with? I’m still thinking GiFs of The Office.

DSM has said nothing “new” in about 250 pages at this point. Minor tweaks? Sure. But nothing new other than having a pocket cleric around page 224 or so.

Anytime confronted with something that would change the mine of a sane person, his tactics are:

1) ignore it
2) redirect and distract
3) move the goalpost
4) or get the thread all in an unrelated tangent discussion ala #pocketCleric #warriorsSoloBetterthanEnchanters

Well said! Whatever page # is reached, I will be here attempting to continue to do my part contributing to the civil discussion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I guess one way to win arguments is refusing to give up and being so annoyingly obtuse that everyone else gives up talking to you. Not my preferred strategy but it's effective if you're willing to post complete bullshit over 1000 times like a psychopath

This is your strategy. The hundreds of troll/insult/meme posts prove this.

I will admit I am wrong if you can provide evidence to back up your claims.

You do not get to win a debate by trolling and simply dismissing anything that disagrees with you.

[cyxthryth]

This is your strategy. The hundreds of troll/insult/meme posts prove this.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of what another's strategy is and what constitutes as "proof"; which are simply your opinions.

I will admit I am wrong if you can provide evidence to back up your claims.

The problem is that your post does not seem to identify any particular claims which (based on the above Quote) apparently in your opinion - which is, again, simply your opinion - require additional evidence provided (for some unspecified reason that you simply did not specify).

You do not get to win a debate by trolling and simply dismissing anything that disagrees with you.

You have not provided the definition you are using for "win" or "troll"/"trolling". The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of whether another poster "gets to win" (whatever that means - as, again - you have not provided the definition you are using for "win").

[Troxx]

Please forgive any minor grammar or spelling/wordswap issues. I’m on my iPhone (fucking autocorrect) and this will be long. I don’t feel like proof reading.

Attempt at honest discussion incomming …

I do find it funny that DSM places such a high value on redundant heals/utility for the sake of safety. Bear with me but let’s play along a shall we?

-Imagine you have a static camp of 27 mobs each with 8000hp.
-Mob respawn time is 27minutes
-camp isn’t hard. Mobs are loosely arranged. Some are single pulls/engages. Some come in 2s. Rare spot there are 3-4 you might have to deal with (cc/lull/FD split)

Without counting the actual mobs down there this is more or less crypt/emp. Unfortunately this caster group by definition cannot have a rog so once you’re down there you can’t do emp but can face pull some stuff through the emp door.

But for the sake of argument. There are 27 mobs.

100dps = 80 second kill time
200dps = 40 second kill time
300dps = 26 second kill time
400dps = 20 second kill time

Hang with me here. We are about to ruminate our head-walnuts and approach this not as concrete thinkers. We are going to engage in that thing DSM is incapable of abstract thought.

Concrete absolutes:

@100 dps (80 second kills): with zero down time to move or pull this group will kill at most 20 mobs per repop cycle. Factoring that you WILL have to move, pull, or whatever else you’re looking at realistically 17-18 kills due to time lost.

@200 dps (40 second kills): with zero down time you can kill all in 18 minutes! Knowing there will be down time and mobility moving around etc you’re probably looking more at all kills in 22ish minutes. This leaves you 5 mins of time between cycles/repops. If there is a named who is more resistant or has more hps or dps time was lost doing CC maybe add a minute or 2-3. Still even then you are done but now have 2-3 minutes of down time for repops.

@300 dps (26 second kills): with zero downtime you can kill it all in 11.7 minute. This leaves 15.3 minutes of down time. Knowing that you have to move around … let’s drop that to 11.3 minutes of down time. With naked or unexpected stuff? Take a way a few more minutes and let’s just say a solid 8-9 mins down time.

@400 dps (20 second kills): with zero down time all dead in 9. 18 minutes down time … wait no make that 14 for movement or maybe 12 for other stuff mentioned above.

OK GUYS CONCRETE BS IS DONE — let’s think abstractly.

Down time: it is good for the heart, soul, allows you to take a piss or look at some tantalizing pictures on the intrawebs of that’s what your heart desires. It gives you a moment to breathe, med up, refresh buffs. It allows you to make a sammich or grab another beer. It allows classes like mages to be freshly full mana with each cycle so they don’t have to get stingy on the nukes.

“Safety”: the shorter a fight, the less time for the fight to go wrong. If you drop your kill time from 80 sec to 40 sec to 26 sec to 20 sec … that’s a whole hell of a lot less time for the emergency situation to actually develop. If it does develop you exponentially reduce chance of catastrophe as the encounter is over so much faster. By killing faster; far less reason to even need that slow, extra root or heal. If mobs die faster less cleric mana use per mob - mana saved.

DPS doesn’t have a break point. Anyone capable of abstract thought can understand this. Even in a situation where you are limited by mobs (no more to pull) there is significant benefit in just getting things dead faster. More time to take care of basic bodily functions or just rest the eyes. It also markedly reduces risk because thing die so much faster … it’s why you never needed the extra heals, cc, or “utility” of the shaman.

What if the group is crawling around though? A place like seb is a veritable all you can eat buffet. If you want to move around the 400dps group will be getting literally twice as much xp loot compared to 200. 300 getting 50% more.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please forgive any minor grammar or spelling/wordswap issues. I’m on my iPhone (fucking autocorrect) and this will be long. I don’t feel like proof reading.

Attempt at honest discussion incomming …

I do find it funny that DSM places such a high value on redundant heals/utility for the sake of safety. Bear with me but let’s play along a shall we?

-Imagine you have a static camp of 27 mobs each with 8000hp.
-Mob respawn time is 27minutes
-camp isn’t hard. Mobs are loosely arranged. Some are single pulls/engages. Some come in 2s. Rare spot there are 3-4 you might have to deal with (cc/lull/FD split)

Without counting the actual mobs down there this is more or less crypt/emp. Unfortunately this caster group by definition cannot have a rog so once you’re down there you can’t do emp but can face pull some stuff through the emp door.

But for the sake of argument. There are 27 mobs.

100dps = 80 second kill time
200dps = 40 second kill time
300dps = 26 second kill time
400dps = 20 second kill time

Hang with me here. We are about to ruminate our head-walnuts and approach this not as concrete thinkers. We are going to engage in that thing DSM is incapable of abstract thought.

Concrete absolutes:

@100 dps (80 second kills): with zero down time to move or pull this group will kill at most 20 mobs per repop cycle. Factoring that you WILL have to move, pull, or whatever else you’re looking at realistically 17-18 kills due to time lost.

@200 dps (40 second kills): with zero down time you can kill all in 18 minutes! Knowing there will be down time and mobility moving around etc you’re probably looking more at all kills in 22ish minutes. This leaves you 5 mins of time between cycles/repops. If there is a named who is more resistant or has more hps or dps time was lost doing CC maybe add a minute or 2-3. Still even then you are done but now have 2-3 minutes of down time for repops.

@300 dps (26 second kills): with zero downtime you can kill it all in 11.7 minute. This leaves 15.3 minutes of down time. Knowing that you have to move around … let’s drop that to 11.3 minutes of down time. With naked or unexpected stuff? Take a way a few more minutes and let’s just say a solid 8-9 mins down time.

@400 dps (20 second kills): with zero down time all dead in 9. 18 minutes down time … wait no make that 14 for movement or maybe 12 for other stuff mentioned above.

OK GUYS CONCRETE BS IS DONE — let’s think abstractly.

Down time: it is good for the heart, soul, allows you to take a piss or look at some tantalizing pictures on the intrawebs of that’s what your heart desires. It gives you a moment to breathe, med up, refresh buffs. It allows you to make a sammich or grab another beer. It allows classes like mages to be freshly full mana with each cycle so they don’t have to get stingy on the nukes.

“Safety”: the shorter a fight, the less time for the fight to go wrong. If you drop your kill time from 80 sec to 40 sec to 26 sec to 20 sec … that’s a whole hell of a lot less time for the emergency situation to actually develop. If it does develop you exponentially reduce chance of catastrophe as the encounter is over so much faster. By killing faster; far less reason to even need that slow, extra root or heal. If mobs die faster less cleric mana use per mob - mana saved.

DPS doesn’t have a break point. Anyone capable of abstract thought can understand this. Even in a situation where you are limited by mobs (no more to pull) there is significant benefit in just getting things dead faster. More time to take care of basic bodily functions or just rest the eyes. It also markedly reduces risk because thing die so much faster … it’s why you never needed the extra heals, cc, or “utility” of the shaman.

What if the group is crawling around though? A place like seb is a veritable all you can eat buffet. If you want to move around the 400dps group will be getting literally twice as much xp loot compared to 200. 300 getting 50% more.

Killing things faster does increase safety. But having an extra healer also does this!

When the difference in kill speed is 4 seconds, there isn't much room for the mob to suddenly do something crazy.

An Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman group is already easily capable of outputting 300 DPS. The difference between 300 DPS and 350 DPS (Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage) is 4.3 seconds on a mob with 8000 HP. That means on a cycle with 20 mobs you are getting an extra 80 seconds AFK time on basically a 20 minute AFK as it is. I don't think anybody is going to care about that. I wouldn't. I'd much rather have a lower chance of wiping or having an emergency come up. 20 minutes is already enough to move and med back to full. Medding for 20 minutes gives you back 4000 mana (without C2), and most casters will have around 3000 mana with normal gear, so you don't need the full 20 minutes.

Because of 30 minute spawn times, you are not just getting more kills indefinitely. You keep assuming you will have a constant cycle of mobs, and that realistically isn't the case most of the time, unless you have the zone completely to yourself. But again, if that is the case, the Shaman can Root/Rot trash too for higher DPS.

You are just saying you prefer to have a few more seconds of downtime. That is a perfectly fine preference to have, but that does not mean it is objectively helping your gameplay. Again, nobody is saying you cannot prefer one thing over the other.

[Troxx]

A mage in a fast paced high dps will put out 100-120 dps. With a good mana pool and some downtime between spawns you can keep it at the higher threshold by nuking more. And in spending that extra mana it gives you the time to med back to full each cycle it is fully sustainable.

DSM posted some videos of him soloing isolated mobs. He estimates 55dps which seems accurate for the single fights he did and what a shaman could do but did not actually ever join a fast moving high dps group to prove he could pull it off when competing with the rest of the group sustainably. How much would be time lost with canni and torpor not nuking? How much would that actually lower shaman dps? We don’t know because he has thus far refused to do it. If his mana pool is deep enough he didn’t have to canni and heal back up then sure its sustainable. But if it IS thusly sustainable … it just widens the gap. If you didn’t need to tap into shaman mana recovery you’re just playing a class that nukes for less with longer cast times and less mana efficiency.

You are effectively a washed out crappier than the mage paired with a terribly low dps pet compared to the buzz saw that is the mage pet.

No matter how you slice it … it is just a failure.

Shamans are not a group DPS class.
The group doesn’t need your utility.

This is not rocket surgery.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A mage in a fast paced high dps will put out 100-120 dps. With a good mana pool and some downtime between spawns you can keep it at the higher threshold by nuking more. And in spending that extra mana it gives you the time to med back to full each cycle it is fully sustainable.

DSM posted some videos of him soloing isolated mobs. He estimates 55dps which seems accurate for the single fights he did and what a shaman could do but did not actually ever join a fast moving high dps group to prove he could pull it off when competing with the rest of the group sustainably. How much would be time lost with canni and torpor not nuking? How much would that actually lower shaman dps? We don’t know because he has thus far refused to do it. If his mana pool is deep enough he didn’t have to canni and heal back up then sure its sustainable. But if it IS thusly sustainable … it just widens the gap. If you didn’t need to tap into shaman mana recovery you’re just playing a class that nukes for less with longer cast times and less mana efficiency.

You are effectively a washed out crappier than the mage paired with a terribly low dps pet compared to the buzz saw that is the mage pet.

No matter how you slice it … it is just a failure.

Shamans are not a group DPS class.
The group doesn’t need your utility.

This is not rocket surgery.

It isn't rocket surgery indeed.

You keep ignoring the higher DPS in situations where you are not chain pulling easy mobs and not allowing the Shaman to root/rot said easy mobs. The 55 DPS number is literally the most constrained DPS position you can be in.

It is basically the equivalent of saying Mage's cannot use their pets when doing DPS. Then you declare that Mage's don't have good DPS. It is just nonsense.

A Shaman can do 150 DPS when root/rotting 4 mobs.

You still haven't proven how variability in groups will affect Shamans differently than Mages, or how DPS will change under the assumption your group isn't actively hurting your DPS.

In a fast moving group, both classes won't be able to med as much (but Shamans can Torpor). In a fast moving group, both classes have less opportunity to cast damage spells if kill speed is fast, etc.

You need to provide evidence that the variability in the group is affecting the Shaman more so than the Mage. Otherwise if a group is doing 20% less DPS for whatever reason, that affects both the Mage and Shaman equally. So it is irrelevant.

[cyxthryth]

Killing things faster does increase safety. But having an extra healer also does this!

Can you please demonstrate this with relevant data/evidence such as parses/video from actual - relevant - gameplay?

When the difference in kill speed is 4 seconds, there isn't much room for the mob to suddenly do something crazy.

The above Quote is simply you sharing your opinion of whether 4 seconds is "much room", which is simply your opinion.

An Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman group is already easily capable of outputting 300 DPS. The difference between 300 DPS and 350 DPS (Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage) is 4.3 seconds on a mob with 8000 HP. That means on a cycle with 20 mobs you are getting an extra 80 seconds AFK time on basically a 20 minute AFK as it is. I don't think anybody is going to care about that. I wouldn't. I'd much rather have a lower chance of wiping or having an emergency come up. 20 minutes is already enough to move and med back to full. Medding for 20 minutes gives you back 4000 mana (without C2), and most casters will have around 3000 mana with normal gear, so you don't need the full 20 minutes.

The above Quote is simply you sharing your opinion of whether "anybody is going to care about that" and what you'd "much rather have"; which is simply your opinion.

the Shaman can Root/Rot trash too for higher DPS.

Again, can you please demonstrate this with relevant data/evidence such as parses/video from actual - relevant - gameplay? :)

You are just saying you prefer to have a few more seconds of downtime. That is a perfectly fine preference to have, but that does not mean it is objectively helping your gameplay. Again, nobody is saying you cannot prefer one thing over the other.

The above Quote is simply you sharing your opinion of what another poster "is just saying"; which is simply your opinion.

[Troxx]

When the difference in kill speed is 4 seconds, there isn't much room for the mob to suddenly do something crazy.

4 seconds x 27 mobs is 2 minutes longer to kill all 27. 2 minutes less to take a breather.

Beyond that you haven’t actually proven it.

Assuming each ench pet is about 120 dps and the mage and pet are another 120 that’s 360dps … 22.22 second fight.

Sub in the shaman with your 55 and it’s 27.11 seconds. So more like 5 seconds which x27 mobs is adds close to another half minute of down time on top of the above.

What about unlimited mobs? The shaman group could kill 132 per hour. The mage group would look at 162 mobs an hour under unrealistic concrete math circumstances.

But I will emphasize again you have only shown us what you can do in isolated solo videos. 55dps is your apex … best case scenario. I bet the numbers would be very different if you actually joined a fast paced, high dps group and tried to do it fight after fight after fight. Especially with your fairly crappy nuke having such a long cast time … oh and the need to spend so much time standing up TO cast it (not meditating) which will likely have your time drawn and pulled away fairly substantially to canni and torpor.

This is why I gave up on you DSM. You never actually tried. You did something completely different than what the community asked you to do and tried to fill the gap with napkin math.

If you had spent literally 0.01% of the time you have posting in this thread actually DOING IT IN A GROUP, we would have a mountain of data to play with to draw actual comparisons with.

But you didn’t. And you won’t.

Which is why I offer you more GiFs:

https://c.tenor.com/Pu_JwsgcrlYAAAAd/dwight-dwight-schrute.gif

No more napkin math.

Trollollolling trolling trollin’ along!

Tally ho!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

4 seconds x 27 mobs is 2 minutes longer to kill all 27. 2 minutes less to take a breather.

Beyond that you haven’t actually proven it.

Assuming each ench pet is about 120 dps and the mage and pet are another 120 that’s 360dps … 22.22 second fight.

Sub in the shaman with your 55 and it’s 27.11 seconds. So more like 5 seconds which x27 mobs is adds close to another half minute of down time on top of the above.

What about unlimited mobs? The shaman group could kill 132 per hour. The mage group would look at 162 mobs an hour under unrealistic concrete math circumstances.

But I will emphasize again you have only shown us what you can do in isolated solo videos. 55dps is your apex … best case scenario. I bet the numbers would be very different if you actually joined a fast paced, high dps group and tried to do it fight after fight after fight. Especially with your fairly crappy nuke having such a long cast time … oh and the need to spend so much time standing up TO cast it (not meditating) which will likely have your time drawn and pulled away fairly substantially to canni and torpor.

This is why I gave up on you DSM. You never actually tried. You did something completely different than what the community asked you to do and tried to fill the gap with napkin math.

If you had spent literally 0.01% of the time you have posting in this thread actually DOING IT IN A GROUP, we would have a mountain of data to play with to draw actual comparisons with.

But you didn’t. And you won’t.

No more napkin math.

Trollollolling trolling trollin’ along!

Tally ho!

You keep claiming the numbers will change, but have no evidence to prove it. I am honestly astonished at how you cannot understand the basic principle that mob HP/AC/Resists do not change in solo vs. group situations. Unless your group is actively hurting your DPS (in which case the Mage would be affected too), the numbers won't change.

5 seconds isn't going to help more than 4 seconds. Most groups do not have unlimited mobs. When you do, the Shaman can root/rot for 120 DPS with just 3 mobs. So you can close the DPS gap if you care about the 4-5 seconds in this specific scenario.

In a scenario where you are only killing a few tough mobs per hour, the DPS gap also shrinks due to a Shaman's DoTs, and the Shaman's utility will help the group more than a bit of DPS. You certainly aren't getting any more kills per hour here.

[PlsNoBan]

Shamans are not a group DPS class.
The group doesn’t need your utility.

Basically sums up the entire thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Basically sums up the entire thread

The data shows otherwise.

[cyxthryth]

It isn't rocket surgery indeed.

You keep ignoring the higher DPS in situations where you are not chain pulling easy mobs and not allowing the Shaman to root/rot said easy mobs. The 55 DPS number is literally the most constrained DPS position you can be in.

Do you have a particular amount of experience with "ignoring" that causes you to believe you can speak with such authority on when others "keep ignoring" something?

It is basically the equivalent of saying Mage's cannot use their pets when doing DPS. Then you declare that Mage's don't have good DPS. It is just nonsense.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion that another post is "nonsense", though - as you have not provided the definition of "nonsense" that you are using - I am not sure what point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting.

A Shaman can do 150 DPS when root/rotting 4 mobs.

Can you please demonstrate this with relevant data/evidence such as parses/video from actual - relevant (to this discussion) - gameplay?

Hehe. :)


You still haven't proven how variability in groups will affect Shamans differently than Mages, or how DPS will change under the assumption your group isn't actively hurting your DPS.

You tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? :) Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

In a fast moving group, both classes won't be able to med as much (but Shamans can Torpor). In a fast moving group, both classes have less opportunity to cast damage spells if kill speed is fast, etc.

You need to provide evidence that the variability in the group is affecting the Shaman more so than the Mage. Otherwise if a group is doing 20% less DPS for whatever reason, that affects both the Mage and Shaman equally. So it is irrelevant.

Your posts content - once again - seems to be attempting to tell others what they "need to do" as if you belive that you have some authority over them. You do not.

[cyxthryth]

You keep claiming the numbers will change, but have no evidence to prove it. I am honestly astonished at how you cannot understand the basic principle that mob HP/AC/Resists do not change in solo vs. group situations. Unless your group is actively hurting your DPS (in which case the Mage would be affected too), the numbers won't change.

Hehe. :)

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.


5 seconds isn't going to help more than 4 seconds. Most groups do not have unlimited mobs. When you do, the Shaman can root/rot for 120 DPS with just 3 mobs. So you can close the DPS gap if you care about the 4-5 seconds in this specific scenario.

The above Quote is simply you sharing your opinion of what is going to "help more"; which is simply your opinion.

In a scenario where you are only killing a few tough mobs per hour, the DPS gap also shrinks due to a Shaman's DoTs, and the Shaman's utility will help the group more than a bit of DPS. You certainly aren't getting any more kills per hour here.

The above Quote is simply you sharing your opinion of what is going to "help the group more"; which is simply your opinion.

[cyxthryth]

The data shows otherwise.

The above quote is simply you sharing your opinion of what the data shows; which is simply your opinion - but feel free to support it with relevant factual evidence/data if you believe that you can and are willing to do so for the sake of civil discussion. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[Troxx]

You need to provide evidence that the variability in the group is affecting the Shaman more so than the Mage. Otherwise if a group is doing 20% less DPS for whatever reason, that affects both the Mage and Shaman equally. So it is irrelevant.

Last I checked YOU are the shaman with skin in the game. I provided the data of how a mage functions in a fast high paced group. You have not provided the same for the shaman … at all … despite being asked.

Why should I provide YOUR classes data for you? I already gave you mage data to compare it to and so did Ally.

You’re the one that can but WON’T provide the “evidence”.

I have a good guess though. It will be lower. You will probably sustain closer to 40-45 dps (possibly lower) due to time spent casting canni, torpor, and missed nukes given thr 7 second long cast time.

But we will never know until you actually do it.

No more napkin math.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Last I checked YOU are the shaman with skin in the game. I provided the data of how a mage functions in a fast high paced group. You have not provided the same for the shaman … at all … despite being asked.

Why should I provide YOUR classes data for you? I already gave you mage data to compare it to and so did Ally.

You’re the one that can but WON’T provide the “evidence”.

I have a good guess though. It will be lower. You will probably sustain closer to 40-45 dps (possibly lower) due to time spent casting canni, torpor, and missed nukes given thr 7 second long cast time.

But we will never know until you actually do it.

No more napkin math.

Again, this isn't how burden of proof works. Both sides provided evidence.

You are making a new claim my evidence is invalid. Therefore it is up to you to prove it.

Asking me to prove a negative is nonsense. I could keep claiming your parse data is photoshopped and not from a Mage. That is the same thing you are doing here.

[cyxthryth]

Again, this isn't how burden of proof works. Both sides provided evidence.

The above Quote is simply you sharing your opinion of how burden of proof works/"doesn't work"; which is simply your opinion.

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you - still - think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).


You are making a new claim my evidence is invalid. Therefore it is up to you to prove it.

For the sake of civil discussion, can you please provide the definition that you are using for the word "new"? :)

Asking me to prove a negative is nonsense. I could keep claiming your parse data is photoshopped and not from a Mage. That is the same thing you are doing here.

The above Quote is simply you sharing your opinion of what the "thing Troxx is doing here" is ("nonsense" apparently, although - again - you have not provided the definition that you are using for "nonsense" so I am not sure what point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting); which is simply your opinon hehe.

Feel free to support it with relevant factual evidence/data if you believe that you can and are willing to do so for the sake of civil discussion. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[Troxx]

One side provided relevant data.

The other side posted videos of solo encounters.

It’s funny. If this were a game of chess DSM was solidly in “check-mate” sometime around 300 pages ago. Instead this clown has spent weeks arguing he’s not actually in checkmate. His dead queen, bishops and rolls are clearly not dead. They are alive because his napkin math stated evidence to the contrary.

https://c.tenor.com/rcVNeqKHmOQAAAAM/fool-youre-a-fool.gif


I don’t know though … who’s the bigger fool? The fool or the folks who foolishly think they can talk sense into the fool?

For now I’m mostly in it for the laughs. The longer this drags on the more foolish the fool looks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

One side provided relevant data.

The other side posted videos of solo encounters.

It’s funny. If this were a game of chess DSM was solidly in “check-mate” sometime around 300 pages ago. Instead this clown has spent weeks arguing he’s not actually in checkmate. His dead queen, bishops and rolls are clearly not dead. They are alive because his napkin math stated evidence to the contrary.

https://c.tenor.com/rcVNeqKHmOQAAAAM/fool-youre-a-fool.gif


I don’t know though … who’s the bigger fool? The fool or the folks who foolishly think they can talk sense into the fool?

For now I’m mostly in it for the laughs. The longer this drags on the more foolish the fool looks.

It is up to you to prove the DPS numbers will change. That is the claim you are making. I am not making this claim at all, because mob AC/HP/Resists factually do not change when soloing vs. grouping. It is a strange claim to be honest if you understood how the basic math of the game works.

[cyxthryth]

It is up to you to prove the DPS numbers will change. That is the claim you are making. I am not making this claim at all, because mob AC/HP/Resists factually do not change when soloing vs. grouping. It is a strange claim to be honest if you understood how the basic math of the game works.

You tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"arguent" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? :) Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

[PlsNoBan]

The data shows otherwise.

It doesn't though. It really really doesn't. The data says mages do significantly more damage than shamans and will net the group more kills over time. Your opinion says the group will wipe without shaman heals/utility. Everyone's common sense says that won't happen.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It doesn't though. It really really doesn't.

It does. It really does. You even admit the math is correct.

[PlsNoBan]

It does. It really does. You even admit the math is correct.

https://i.imgur.com/ysHnd9o.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It doesn't though. It really really doesn't. The data says mages do significantly more damage than shamans and will net the group more kills over time. Your opinion says the group will wipe without shaman heals/utility. Everyone's common sense says that won't happen.

No. The data shows the Mage's extra DPS gives you no more kills over time.

There is always the possibility of wiping. It is silly to claim I said it is a guarantee. But when you have an x% chance to wipe, it can happen, and has happened.

This isn't "common sense", you have this strange notion people never wipe in Everquest. It's nonsense.

[PlsNoBan]

No. The data shows the Mage's extra DPS gives you no more kills over time.

There is always the possibility of wiping. It is silly to claim I said it is a guarantee. But when you have an x% chance to wipe, it can happen, and has happened.

This isn't "common sense", you have this strange notion people never wipe in Everquest. It's nonsense.

https://i.imgur.com/MidVvrQ.gif

[Troxx]

It is up to you to prove the DPS numbers will change. That is the claim you are making.

No it is not. I could post logs of videos of me soloing. We could compare that to the videos you have already posted. THAT would be a direct comparison. We could also expand that and see who could deal the most damage over time and get the most kills. Know who would win? The shaman. Why? Dots. Rots. Roots. Epic click. Slow. Canni.

For all the reasons shamans are great. They would win by a landslide.

If we are going to compare. It needs to be apples to apples. Not apples to bacon. Not apples to gravel.

This thread is about a theoretical best 4 man caster GROUP. A shaman soloing is irrelevant.

You are the shaman. I proffered the mage data in a group of comparable dps to 2x charm enchanter pet + my own dps output. You have not joined a group to see how much damage you can actually do.

My guess is less. Only you can provide the data to prove otherwise.

Why won’t you?

https://c.tenor.com/ZjhtTqc85ecAAAAC/trump-clapping.gif

[cyxthryth]

It does. It really does. You even admit the math is correct.

"Correct" =/= "Relevant"

4 =/= 5

You tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"arguent" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe.

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No it is not. I could post logs of videos of me soloing. We could compare that to the videos you have already posted. THAT would be a direct comparison. We could also expand that and see who could deal the most damage over time and get the most kills. Know who would win? The shaman. Why? Dots. Rots. Roots. Epic click. Slow. Canni.

For all the reasons shamans are great. They would win by a landslide.

If we are going to compare. It needs to be apples to apples. Not apples to bacon. Not apples to gravel.

This thread is about a theoretical best 4 man caster GROUP. A shaman soloing is irrelevant.

You are the shaman. I proffered the mage data in a group of comparable dps to 2x charm enchanter pet + my own dps output. You have not joined a group to see how much damage you can actually do.

My guess is less. Only you can provide the data to prove otherwise.

Why won’t you?


Again, you need to prove the comparison is invalid. So far you haven't provided any evidence other than you saying so.

The funny thing is your screenshot of a parse doesn't prove the data you captured was even from the group that supposedly fills your requirements. For all we know, you were just soloing and happened to be parsing a group nearby.

If you are asking me to prove a negative, I will simply do the same. You need to provide evidence your data was even from a group.

[PlsNoBan]

Again, you need to prove the comparison is invalid. So far you haven't provided any evidence other than you saying so.

The funny thing is your screenshot of a parse doesn't prove the data you captured was even from the group that supposedly fills your requirements. For all we know, you were just soloing and happened to be parsing a group nearby.

If you are asking me to prove a negative, I will simply do the same. You need to provide evidence your data was even from a group.

https://i.imgur.com/QELRf9J.gif

[Troxx]

All you have to do is go out and do it. Post the results.

Why won’t you? It’s not exactly hard. Ally even invited you to tag along but you chose to post on these forums instead. Why?

https://c.tenor.com/hwGuLZHa9ccAAAAC/perrie-edwards-im-scared.gif

[cyxthryth]

Again, you need to prove the comparison is invalid. So far you haven't provided any evidence other than you saying so.

The funny thing is your screenshot of a parse doesn't prove the data you captured was even from the group that supposedly fills your requirements. For all we know, you were just soloing and happened to be parsing a group nearby.

If you are asking me to prove a negative, I will simply do the same. You need to provide evidence your data was even from a group.

That's simple:

Solo =/= "4 person all caster/priest group"
"Correct" =/= "Relevant"
4 =/= 5

You tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"arguent" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe.

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

All you have to do is go out and do it. Post the results.

Why won’t you? It’s not exactly hard. Ally even invited you to tag along but you chose to post on these forums instead. Why?


It's really simple. The data I have provided is more than enough.

I am sorry, but you need to provide evidence to support your claim the data will change in a group scenario in a way that will be harmful to the shaman, but not the Mage.

You do not simply just get to say "your data is invalid" and assume that is a valid argument. It isn't. I could just do the same thing to you. For example "prove your data is from a group and meets your the requirements you gave to me. A few numbers on a screenshot do not prove you were in a group.".

[Troxx]

DSM:

https://c.tenor.com/rfFtbLWHXWkAAAAM/me-after.gif

Clearly you are.

[cyxthryth]

It's really simple. The data I have provided is more than enough.

The above Quote is simply you sharing your opinion of whether the data you have provided "is more than enough"; which is simply your opinon. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Solo =/= "4 person all caster/priest group"
"Correct" =/= "Relevant"
4 =/= 5

I am sorry, but you need to provide evidence to support your claim the data will change in a group scenario in a way that will be harmful to the shaman, but not the Mage

You have provided zero evidence that anybody has suggested being in a group will "be harmful to the Shaman, but not the Mage", so I am not sure what point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting. That is simply an example of you building a strawman to argue against. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/syKf822PfRwAAAAC/chicken-pussy.gif

Go out and do it. I double dog dare you (don’t make me escalate to triple dog)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM:

Clearly you are.

Not at all. The data supports my position. I am quite comfortable right now. I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

If you understand the fact that AC/HP/Resistances of a mob do not change when grouping vs. solo, you will understand how DPS works in the game in both situations. The answer is it doesn't change unless your group members are specifically impacting your performance. For example, your Enchanters keep getting your Mage Pet killed. That isn't a valid indicator a Mage's DPS is lower. That simply means you have bad team mates.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/_Fqwl_NaO-kAAAAC/achristmasstory-tripledogdare.gif

[cyxthryth]

Not at all. The data supports my position. I am quite comfortable right now. I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

If you understand the fact that AC/HP/Resistances of a mob do not change when grouping vs. solo, you will understand how DPS works in the game in both situations. The answer is it doesn't change unless your group members are specifically impacting your performance. For example, your Enchanters keep getting your Mage Pet killed. That isn't a valid indicator a Mage's DPS is lower. That simply means you have bad team mates.

You tried to claim:

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"arguent" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? :) Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

[PlsNoBan]

Not at all. The data supports my position. I am quite comfortable right now. I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

If you understand the fact that AC/HP/Resistances of a mob do not change when grouping vs. solo, you will understand how DPS works in the game in both situations. The answer is it doesn't change unless your group members are specifically impacting your performance. For example, your Enchanters keep getting your Mage Pet killed. That isn't a valid indicator a Mage's DPS is lower. That simply means you have bad team mates.

https://i.imgur.com/Nu9If5d.gif

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/dzBbEjm.gif

[Gloomlord]

All I have to say in regards to DSM:

https://y.yarn.co/32be5ce0-a58b-4779-9f52-4099925eb989_text.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

All I have to say in regards to DSM:

https://y.yarn.co/32be5ce0-a58b-4779-9f52-4099925eb989_text.gif

Of course. It is why trolls like you don't get to win here. I will make sure the correct information is available, regardless of who is right. You want to force people to agree with you via trolling. You are the only one with no honor here with such tactics.

[Gloomlord]

I don't know about that. Troxx asks you to return the favour on the parsing, and you refuse by citing the excuse that group DPS is open to too many variables. You then, however, cite your Solo DPS parse as applicable for some reason. You think that's an honest viewpoint in regards to this discussion?

Forget autism. Don't know why people said that. You're a sociopath at this point.

[Troxx]

I don't know about that. Troxx asks you to return the favour on the parsing, and you refuse by citing the excuse that group DPS is open to too many variables. You then, however, cite your Solo DPS parse as applicable for some reason. You think that's an honest viewpoint in regards to this discussion?

Forget autism. Don't know why people said that. You're a sociopath at this point.

https://c.tenor.com/JmGYf7TnjS4AAAAd/emma-favorite.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't know about that. Troxx asks you to return the favour on the parsing, and you refuse by citing the excuse that group DPS is open to too many variables. You then, however, cite your Solo DPS parse as applicable for some reason. You think that's an honest viewpoint in regards to this discussion?

Forget autism. Don't know why people said that. You're a sociopath at this point.

The problem here is you are making the assumption that Troxx's request is required to prove basic DPS maths. It isn't.

I have provided the correct evidence, which is superior to Troxx's because it is video data with logs that can be cross referenced to the video.

I am sorry you have to resort to trolling because you can't get over the fact that data doesn't have to be gathered in the manner you request.

The maths are also correct, nobody has been able to explain why 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is incorrect. That is an example of "napkin math", which you claim is incorrect.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/Wsjcowm9ucMAAAAC/jim-halpert-nope.gif

[cyxthryth]

The problem here is you are making the assumption that Troxx's request is required to prove basic DPS maths. It isn't.

I have provided the correct evidence, which is superior to Troxx's because it is video data with logs that can be cross referenced to the video.

I am sorry you have to resort to trolling because you can't get over the fact that data doesn't have to be gathered in the manner you request.

The maths are also correct, nobody has been able to explain why 20 x 10 x 60 = 12000 mana per hour via meditation is incorrect. That is an example of "napkin math", which you claim is incorrect.

I am not sure what - relevant - point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting in the above Quote. Remember, irrelevant information is simply not relevant to the discussion. The above Quote would appear to simply be an example of you sharing that it is your opinion that you have provided the correct evidence, and that it is superior to Troxx's; which is simply your opinion.

Solo =/= "4 person all caster/priest group"
"Correct" =/= "Relevant"
4 =/= 5

You tried to claim:


Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

and then you simply contradicted yourself by subsequently posting:


in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data


Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument*" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe.

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

[Gloomlord]

Wait, so now he wants video evidence of a parse for it to be legit?

When do these goalposts end? I feel my body drain in exasperation with this creature.

[Troxx]

DSM he is quoting you verbatim.

You really should reply.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wait, so now he wants video evidence of a parse for it to be legit?

When do these goalposts end? I feel my body drain in exasperation with this creature.

My evidence is provable to come from P99 and from a Shaman. There is no way to actually show that Troxx's data comes from a group, from P99, or from a Mage. He can't even meet his own standards.

[Gloomlord]

https://trekmovie.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/facepalm-head.jpg

[Troxx]

My evidence is provable to come from P99 and from a Shaman. There is no way to actually show that Troxx's data comes from a group, from P99, or from a Mage.

https://c.tenor.com/MwThAODIrBEAAAAC/michael-scott-why.gif

Ah there it is. I called it like 250 pages ago. I knew you’d come out and say it.

Clearly I have fabricated the parses provided. Regardless of the fact that ally’s numbers were shockingly similar.

What a tool.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ah there it is. I called it like 250 pages ago. I knew you’d come out and say it.

Clearly I have fabricated the parses provided. Regardless of the fact that ally’s numbers were shockingly similar.

What a tool.

This is what you have been doing to my evidence for 250 pages. I am simply pointing out you can't prove your data matches the standards you keep trying to claim I must meet.

It is just nonsense. If everybody in this thread wants to claim data must come from a group, then you don't have the evidence to show it came from a group.

This is why asking people to prove a negative is silly. It is what you have been doing the entire time to me.

Allishia's numbers were way different from yours, because she provided log data. Your pet's DPS is much lower. Your average pet DPS was 56 on the individual parses, and 40 on the combined. Her pet is also an Epic Pet.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/MwThAODIrBEAAAAC/michael-scott-why.gif

[Gloomlord]

He's basically lost the argument at this point if he hasn't already.

The man doesn't have a single shred of integrity in his body. He's now accusing Troxx of fabricating the data?!?!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

He's basically lost the argument at this point if he hasn't already.

The man doesn't have a single shred of integrity in his body. He's now accusing Troxx of fabricating the data?!?!

No, I am not accusing him of that at all.

You clearly can't understand the point I am trying to make. I am showing you what you have been doing to me for 250 pages. Asking me to prove a negative. Assuming my data is false.

If the standard is "You must provide data from a four man group with 2x Enchanters, a Mage, and a Cleric", he hasn't met those standards himself.

He has no proof this data actually came from a group, and there weren't 2x Enchanters in his group.

So he needs to provide better data first before he asks for more data from me.

This standard factually isn't necessary, but I find it odd he can't even match his own standard before asking me to do the same.

[Troxx]

He's basically lost the argument at this point if he hasn't already.

The man doesn't have a single shred of integrity in his body. He's now accusing Troxx of fabricating the data?!?!

Didn’t anyone tell you?

https://c.tenor.com/VMr8FIlRrogAAAAC/the-office-pam-beesley.gif

[Gloomlord]

I understand the point you're trying to make, alright.

That you think you're a genius by trolling.

You just once again shifted the goalposts, and you think you're trying to provide wisdom and fairness here?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I understand the point you're trying to make, alright.

That you think you're a genius by trolling.

You just once again shifted the goalposts, and you think you're trying to provide wisdom and fairness here?

You keep saying "shifting goalposts". I don't think you know what that means.

The only people who shifted the goalposts are the people who assume Troxx's request are the goalposts.

I didn't agree to Troxx's request being the standard, so no goalposts even exist to be shifted. I am sorry you have nothing other than the semantic game of claiming my data is invalid because it isn't what Troxx asked for.

It really struck a nerve when I asked you to prove a negative, like you have been doing to me for 250 pages. You really can't stand taking what you dish out.

[cyxthryth]

This is what you have been doing to my evidence for 250 pages. I am simply pointing out you can't prove your data matches the standards you keep trying to claim I must meet.

What "standards" do you believe are being requested/required here? The only requirement that I am aware of your data not meeting is that the data must be relevant, i.e. the data must be capture/recorded/collected in a relevant environment/scenario/context. This has been explained to you multiple times by myself & multiple other posters, so I am not sure why your post would seem to indicate that you do not know this (or are pretending not to know) or that you have forgotten this (or are pretending that you have forgotten).

It is just nonsense. If everybody in this thread wants to claim data must come from a group, then you don't have the evidence to show it came from a group.

You have not provided the definition that you are using for "nonsense", can you please provide this for the sake of civil discussion?

There is data of the performance of other players in Troxx's data. Do you deny this for some reason, and if so - why?

This is why asking people to prove a negative is silly.

You have not provided the definition that you are using for "silly", can you please provide that for the sake of civil discussion?

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Your post to Allishia when they provided their initial data:

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument*" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe.

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

[Gloomlord]

You keep saying "shifting goalposts". I don't think you know what that means.

The only people who shifted the goalposts are the people who assume Troxx's request are the goalposts.

I didn't agree to that, so no goalposts even exist to be shifted. I am sorry you have nothing other than the semantic game of claiming my data is invalid because it isn't what Troxx asked for.

It really struck a nerve when I asked you to prove a negative, like you have been doing to me for 250 pages. You really can't stand taking what you dish out.

But you did, because you just implied video evidence trumps an "out of context parse".

So now we have to go even further to try and prove you wrong.

[Gloomlord]

What "standards" do you believe are being requested/required here? The only requirement that I am aware of your data not meeting is that the data must be relevant, i.e. the data must be capture/recorded/collected in a relevant environment/scenario/context. This has been explained to you multiple times by myself & multiple other posters, so I am not sure why your post would seem to indicate that you do not know this (or are pretending not to know) or that you have forgotten this (or are pretending that you have forgotten).



You have not provided the definition that you are using for "nonsense", can you please provide this for the sake of civil discussion?

There is data of the performance of other players in Troxx's data. Do you deny this for some reason, and if so - why?



You have not provided the definition that you are using for "silly", can you please provide that for the sake of civil discussion?



Your post to Allishia when they provided their initial data:



As I have repeatedly stated to you - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument*" you are defending at any given time due to how often you have moved the goalposts & edited your posts. This really isn't hard hehe.

Which belief do you currently hold/"argue" hehe? Please elaborate for the sake of civil discussion.

I mean, you're raising some pretty good points here. I don't know why he's decided to ignore you. He can't even say "copy-paste" anymore.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But you did, because you just implied video evidence trumps an "out of context parse".

So now we have to go even further to try and prove you wrong.

Now you understand what you have been doing to me for 250 pages. Progress!

You are asking me to prove a negative by asking me to prove my data is valid.

You are making the claim my data and math is invalid. It is up to you to prove this claim.

You really can't take what you dish out for 250 pages.

[cyxthryth]

You keep saying "shifting goalposts". I don't think you know what that means.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing what you think another person does or does not know, and I am not sure what relevance you believe it has to the discussion or what truth-based logic or math or evidence you have to support that belief, but you are entitled to it.

The only people who shifted the goalposts are the people who assume Troxx's request are the goalposts.

This would, of course, be - objectively - false.

I didn't agree to that, so no goalposts even exist to be shifted. I am sorry you have nothing other than the semantic game of claiming my data is invalid because it isn't what Troxx asked for.

Your post seems to indicate that you believe that you must agree that you have shifted the goalposts for it to be an objective fact that you have shifted goalposts; which is simply objectively false. All that is required is for you to shift the goalposts... which the irrefutable evidence - which you cannot refute - clearly shows. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

It really struck a nerve when I asked you to prove a negative, like you have been doing to me for 250 pages. You really can't stand taking what you dish out.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your belief that it has struck a nerve when you asked another poster to "prove a negative", and that you apparently have some belief that you know and can make objective claims about what other posters "can't stand", although, as you have provided no evidence to support such a claim, it is simply unsusbstantiated (and probably false).

[Troxx]

You are making the claim my data and math is invalid.

https://c.tenor.com/CUvcG1ZfS4QAAAAd/the-office-time.gif

[Gloomlord]

For the last time: we told you make a parse as shaman as group DPS.

I mean, you record yourself, right? Prove us all wrong!

Because, like it or not: a solo DPS parse as shaman is irrelevant in a 2 charm group.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

For the last time: we told you make a parse as shaman as group DPS.

I mean, you record yourself, right? Prove us all wrong!

Because, like it or not: a solo DPS parse as shaman is irrelevant in a 2 charm group.

This is where you are simply wrong.

Mob AC/HP/Resists do not change when you play solo vs. group. You have no basis in your claim my DPS parses are irrelevant, or would change.

I am sorry you are angry that I am not complying with your request. That is not a valid argument for claiming my data is irrelevant.

You need to prove my data is invalid first.

[Ripqozko]

This is where you are simply wrong.

Mob AC/HP/Resists do not change when you play solo vs. group. You have no basis in your claim my DPS parses are irrelevant, or would change.

I am sorry you are angry that I am not complying with your request. That is not a valid argument for claiming my data is irrelevant.

Mega Yikes

[cyxthryth]

Now you understand what you have been doing to me for 250 pages. Progress!

You are asking me to prove a negative by asking me to prove my data is valid.

No. You are simply being asked to provide relevent data. The irrelevant data that you have provided - which you seem to believe "others are asking you to prove is valid" - is simply irrelevant to this discussion, and its "validity" is simply irrelevant to this discussion. Only the validity of relevant data/evidence would be relevant. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

You are making the claim my data and math is invalid. It is up to you to prove this claim.

The irrelevance of your data invalidates it from being relevant data - does that verbiage help you understand?

You really can't take what you dish out for 250 pages.

I am not sure why your post indicates that you believe that you know and can make objective claims about what others "can't take", and you have provided zero evidence to support that belief, and I am not sure what point you think you are making or fact you think you are refuting in the above Quote.

[Gloomlord]

Then you're a troll?

Glad we covered this up.

You are a dishonest arsehole, and should be treated as such.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Then you're a troll?

Glad we covered this up.

You are a dishonest arsehole, and should be treated as such.

No. The only trolls here are the people like yourself who just keep claiming all evidence that disagrees with you is invalid.

It's such an obvious troll tactic.

You are simply trying to troll me into agreement. It is just sad.

[Ripqozko]

No. The only trolls here are the people like yourself who just keep claiming all evidence that disagrees with you is invalid.

It's such an obvious troll tactic.

You are simply trying to troll me into agreement. It is just sad.

Mega Yikes

[Troxx]

Mega Yikes

https://c.tenor.com/wrJ_NpV_nFQAAAAd/nervous-shudder.gif

[Gloomlord]

No. The only trolls here are the people like yourself who just keep claiming all evidence that disagrees with you is invalid.

It's such an obvious troll tactic.

You are simply trying to troll me into agreement. It is just sad.

We already went above and beyond the call of duty when we gave you those parses. It showed mage DPS being higher than shaman DPS, and it was recorded in a group. Troxx wasn't trolling you, and you spat in his face.

Any intelligent troll would have bowed out of this thread at that point, but you continue in the name of your ego.