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PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 01:39 AM
If you think those statements are incorrect and/or need to be proven, I really don't know what to tell you.

Welcome to my hell

Karanis
08-31-2022, 01:42 AM
18534

Karanis
08-31-2022, 02:04 AM
18535

Raj
08-31-2022, 06:15 AM
huh?

Karanis
08-31-2022, 06:35 AM
You could read the other 500 pages of DSM, but I think the last few pages sum it up pretty well :)

plzrelax
08-31-2022, 06:53 AM
Maybe I’m missing something, but when you solo as an enchanter, especially at low levels, you aren’t hasting or giving your pet weapons anyway. You have two mobs fight each other and you want the fight to be as even as possible so you break charm when both have >5% hp and you kill them with a nuke. If all goes well the enchanter only casts 4-5 spells the whole fight and is medding safely the whole time.

Karanis
08-31-2022, 07:11 AM
Oh absolutely, soloing via charm is keeping 2 mobs evenly matched and killing them both for full exp, DSM was talking about dps, and saying being grouped with a charmed pet (or warrior) doesn't change dps, but if you're grouped on an enchanter and charming a pet, if you're not weaponizing/hasting your pet you're generally fucking up :)

Troxx
08-31-2022, 09:01 AM
https://c.tenor.com/KV7pJkQ6GEwAAAAC/all-the-idiots-idiot-villages.gif

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 09:28 AM
If you think those statements are incorrect and/or need to be proven, I really don't know what to tell you. Though based on everything I've read from you in these enormously bloated threads, I really can't say I'm surprised.

You just keep missing the point lol. I keep providing data to back up claims, and you don't. If you think a Warrior at level 24 is going to lose a large chunk of DPS by fighting a level 22 mob, just show the parse. I can tell you they won't, because at low level mobs have much lower stats (AC, Dodge, Riposte, Parry). A level 22 mob is still going to be easier to hit. You are thinking of level difference in the high levels like level 60, where it matters more.

Karanis
08-31-2022, 09:53 AM
I wish I had a 24 warrior to prove you wrong, but I will say I've recently leveled a warrior up to the 30-40 range, and even in the 20-40 range, level matters a ton when you're talking toe-to-toe melee with a mob, be it a warrior or a charmed pet. If you think a 24 warrior fighting a 22 mob vs a 16 mob is going to lose even remotely as much health or do the same dps, you're absolutely smoking crack. And similarly if you fight a 28 pet against a 28 mob, it's going to take serious damage and not put out nearly the dps it would if it were fighting a level 20 mob.

Karanis
08-31-2022, 09:54 AM
Your 24 v 16 dps up against 28 v 27 dps isn't good or reliable data.

Karanis
08-31-2022, 09:56 AM
18536

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 10:06 AM
Your 24 v 16 dps up against 28 v 27 dps isn't good or reliable data.

It's much more reliable than the zero data you have provided:) There is zero reason to believe you over actual data.

Kich867
08-31-2022, 10:08 AM
I wish I had a 24 warrior to prove you wrong, but I will say I've recently leveled a warrior up to the 30-40 range, and even in the 20-40 range, level matters a ton when you're talking toe-to-toe melee with a mob, be it a warrior or a charmed pet. If you think a 24 warrior fighting a 22 mob vs a 16 mob is going to lose even remotely as much health or do the same dps, you're absolutely smoking crack. And similarly if you fight a 28 pet against a 28 mob, it's going to take serious damage and not put out nearly the dps it would if it were fighting a level 20 mob.

This is very correct. My solo warrior guide revolves around optimizing your leveling around hunting in areas with mobs who are always at the lowest end of your blue-con range.

The difference between fighting a mob 2 levels below you and a mob 5 levels below you at 24 is very noticeable. It might not be when you're jacked out in gear, but its huge. Levels are by far the most noticeable difference maker when warrior soloing.

Camping the Chasm Minotaur in Gorge is a great example, the difference in kill speed / damage taken at level 23/24 is very different than when you're 25/26 now that its at the bottom of your con range. Not to mention when you're 23 or so, the difference between the minotaur being level 19 or 20 when it spawns massively changes how that fight goes.

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 10:17 AM
For someone so obsessed with data and math he's pretty terrible at it

Toxigen
08-31-2022, 10:23 AM
For someone so obsessed with data and math he's pretty terrible at it

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 10:28 AM
When you can't win with facts and logic, go to insults:)

Troxx
08-31-2022, 10:38 AM
The actual point is that from the second enchanters get charm it is powerful and can be used/abused regularly to result in far more effective solo capability than a warrior can expect. Done properly there is basically no down time and will result in significantly more kills over time than the best of twinked out warriors.

My warrior had 34% haste, fungi and comparable weapons. Could I solo like a buzz saw for the early levels? Absolutely but there was still down time. At best I might have been able to break even with a charm pet fighting monsters of comparable level. Fighting mobs close to the level of the charm pet? No way.

This side tangent is absolutely idiotic.

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 10:45 AM
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:53 2022] Auto attack on.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:54 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 62 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:54 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:54 2022] You crush a froglok vis shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:57 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 73 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:59 2022] You crush a froglok vis shaman for 42 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:00 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:04 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:04 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:07 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:08 2022] You kick a froglok vis shaman for 8 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:10 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:13 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:13 2022] You crush a froglok vis shaman for 6 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:16 2022] a froglok vis shaman begins to cast a spell.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:17 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:19 2022] a froglok vis shaman regains concentration and continues casting.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:19 2022] A froglok vis shaman feels much better.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:20 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:20 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 48 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 62 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] You have slain a froglok vis shaman!
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] Your faction standing with FrogloksofGuk got worse.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] You gain experience!!

772 over 29 seconds = 26.6 DPS


https://wiki.project1999.com/A_froglok_vis_shaman , A level 24 mob good enough for you?

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 10:47 AM
The actual point is that from the second enchanters get charm it is powerful and can be used/abused regularly to result in far more effective solo capability than a warrior can expect. Done properly there is basically no down time and will result in significantly more kills over time than the best of twinked out warriors.

My warrior had 34% haste, fungi and comparable weapons. Could I solo like a buzz saw for the early levels? Absolutely but there was still down time. At best I might have been able to break even with a charm pet fighting monsters of comparable level. Fighting mobs close to the level of the charm pet? No way.

This side tangent is absolutely idiotic.

Nobody argued that point that Enchanter charm gets more powerful hehe. I was simply countering the point that classes like Shamans are dead weight in lower levels. This is true, Shamans suck from levels 1-30, but the point is classes like Enchanters and Clerics really aren't much better. They also need about 30 levels to really get going. So it isn't a good argument to say "don't take a Shaman, because they are dead weight at low levels". That is true for other classes too, and you would want to take them since they scale great later on.

Again, Enchanters at low levels have a lot of downtime too. You are vastly underestimating low meditate values, resists, fizzles, interrupts, etc. at low levels. I am leveling an Enchanter, I know hehe.

My Warrior just has SCHW, Wurmslayer, and Fist of Zek.

cd288
08-31-2022, 10:48 AM
The actual point is that from the second enchanters get charm it is powerful and can be used/abused regularly to result in far more effective solo capability than a warrior can expect. Done properly there is basically no down time and will result in significantly more kills over time than the best of twinked out warriors.

My warrior had 34% haste, fungi and comparable weapons. Could I solo like a buzz saw for the early levels? Absolutely but there was still down time. At best I might have been able to break even with a charm pet fighting monsters of comparable level. Fighting mobs close to the level of the charm pet? No way.

This side tangent is absolutely idiotic.

Thank you Troxx. Think we can end this debate here

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 10:51 AM
Nobody argued that point that Enchanter charm gets more powerful hehe. I was simply countering the point that classes like Shamans are dead weight in lower levels. This is true, Shamans suck from levels 1-30, but the point is classes like Enchanters and Clerics really aren't much better. They also need about 30 levels to really get going. So it isn't a good argument to say "don't take a Shaman, because they are dead weight at low levels". That is true for other classes too, and you would want to take them since they scale great later on.

You're just straight up wrong. As I mentioned before I duo'd enc/enc from 1-55. Me and my buddy were duoing camps and killing faster more efficiently in our teens than entire groups. Enchanters are broken powerful. Even if your stupid warrior can do comparable damage (debatable) it can't sustain it as long as a well played enchanter can. I can't believe you're honestly trying to argue this shit. It's fucking absurd.

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 10:56 AM
Except the data shows otherwise.

This "a glyphed sentry" (level 27-29) has 37% haste from Alacrity (to simulate Tola Robe), and a torch in offhand:


[Tue Aug 30 19:44:06 2022] a glyphed sentry says 'Do not underestimate the might of Mistmoore!'
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:06 2022] a glyphed sentry tells you, 'Attacking a glyphed warder Master.'
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:07 2022] A glyphed sentry bashes a glyphed warder for 16 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:07 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 34 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:09 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 13 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:09 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 16 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:11 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 27 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:12 2022] A glyphed sentry bashes a glyphed warder for 13 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:17 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 29 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:18 2022] A glyphed sentry bashes a glyphed warder for 15 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:19 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 32 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:21 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:24 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 8 points of damage..
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:28 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:29 2022] A glyphed sentry bashes a glyphed warder for 12 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:30 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 34 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:30 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:30 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:36 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:36 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:45 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 27 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:47 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:49 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:56 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:56 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:58 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 11 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:58 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 40 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:58 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 11 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:00 2022] A glyphed sentry bashes a glyphed warder for 16 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:02 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:02 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 48 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:04 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:06 2022] A glyphed sentry kicks a glyphed warder for 6 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:06 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:10 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 45 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:11 2022] A glyphed sentry bashes a glyphed warder for 12 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:12 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 37 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:12 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 32 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:15 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 50 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:15 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:17 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 13 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:19 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] A glyphed sentry kicks a glyphed warder for 6 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] a glyphed warder has been slain by a glyphed sentry!
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] Your faction standing with AgentsofMistmoore could not possibly get any worse.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] Your faction standing with KingTearisThex got better.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] Your faction standing with LeagueofAntonicanBards got better.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] Your faction standing with MayongMistmoore could not possibly get any worse.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] Your faction standing with RingofScale got better.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] You gain experience!!

1436 in 1 minute 16 seconds = 18.9 DPS


Here is my 24 Warrior fighting a level 24 mob with just 22% worn haste from Silver Chitin Hand Wraps, so he could still be spell hasted. He is using Wurmslayer and Fist of Zek. This example doesn't have crit/crippling blows:


[Wed Aug 31 07:38:53 2022] Auto attack on.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:54 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 62 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:54 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:54 2022] You crush a froglok vis shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:57 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 73 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:59 2022] You crush a froglok vis shaman for 42 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:00 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:04 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:04 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:07 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:08 2022] You kick a froglok vis shaman for 8 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:10 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:13 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:13 2022] You crush a froglok vis shaman for 6 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:16 2022] a froglok vis shaman begins to cast a spell.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:17 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:19 2022] a froglok vis shaman regains concentration and continues casting.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:19 2022] A froglok vis shaman feels much better.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:20 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:20 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 48 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 62 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] You have slain a froglok vis shaman!
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] Your faction standing with FrogloksofGuk got worse.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] You gain experience!!

772 over 29 seconds = 26.6 DPS


As I said before, classes like Enchanters aren't as good as you think at lower levels. From levels 1-30 or so, even with a decked out pet, your DPS isn't going to be amazing. This also doesn't consider your lower mana pool, slower mana regen, fizzles, interrupts, spell resists, etc. Enchanters will have downtime too because your skills are lower level. I am leveling an Enchanter up, so I know.

It is silly to say "classes that aren't great at low levels shouldn't be taken". Enchanters obviously get way more powerful later on, so it is worth the wait. It is the same thing with Shamans. They suck from levels 1-30 or so, but get much more powerful later on.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 11:07 AM
https://c.tenor.com/JSj9ie_MD9kAAAAC/kopfsch%C3%BCtteln-an-kopf-fassen-oh-no.gif

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 11:09 AM
You guys must get tired of being proven wrong. Not surprising, since all you can do is insult and meme. I would love to see some data.

Toxigen
08-31-2022, 11:10 AM
jesus christ we short circuited him

send help

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 11:12 AM
jesus christ we short circuited him

send help

I don't know why you think I am distressed at all here. Yet again, you have been proven wrong lol. You really should think a little bit more before you post if you care so much about being wrong. That is why you are trolling, because it is the only way you can feel better about yourself.

PatChapp
08-31-2022, 11:13 AM
Except the data shows otherwise.

This "a glyphed sentry" (level 27-29) has 37% haste from Alacrity (to simulate Tola Robe), and a torch in offhand:



Here is my 24 Warrior fighting a level 24 mob with just 22% worn haste from Silver Chitin Hand Wraps, so he could still be spell hasted. He is using Wurmslayer and Fist of Zek. This example doesn't have crit/crippling blows:



As I said before, classes like Enchanters aren't as good as you think at lower levels. From levels 1-30 or so, even with a decked out pet, your DPS isn't going to be amazing. This also doesn't consider your lower mana pool, slower mana regen, fizzles, interrupts, spell resists, etc. Enchanters will have downtime too because your skills are lower level. I am leveling an Enchanter up, so I know.

It is silly to say "classes that aren't great at low levels shouldn't be taken". Enchanters obviously get way more powerful later on, so it is worth the wait. It is the same thing with Shamans. They suck from levels 1-30 or so, but get much more powerful later on.

Carry some silver chitin hand wraps on your Enchanter,up to lvl 30 pets,they will haste cap with alacrity and cheap enough to be throw away
I had alot of fun in cazic Thule on my enchanter high 20s to low 40s, nice and hectic solo and grouping

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 11:15 AM
Carry some silver chitin hand wraps on your Enchanter,up to lvl 30 pets,they will haste cap with alacrity and cheap enough to be throw away
I had alot of fun in cazic Thule on my enchanter high 20s to low 40s, nice and hectic solo and grouping

Oh my example was showing a pet with Tola Robe (36% haste item). The Haste spell is simulating that, because I don't have a Tola Robe on my Enchanter at the moment. My Warrior didn't have spell haste on, so that means both the pet and the Warrior could still be spell hasted. The DPS difference wouldn't change, the numbers would just increase for both when they get spell hasted.

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 11:40 AM
https://i.imgur.com/PWECZjl.gif

Ripqozko
08-31-2022, 11:48 AM
We def making 200

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 11:57 AM
the data shows

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows.



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 12:17 PM
We def making 200

We'd prolly get there with just DSM and this cyx guy reposting the same shit over and over and everyone else stopped posting entirely

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 12:19 PM
We'd prolly get there with just DSM and this cyx guy reposting the same shit over and over and everyone else stopped posting entirely

If the trolls stopped posting (this includes yourself), the thread would have ended ages ago. It is clear nobody else has any data to back up any claims that they have made in this thread. It is also clear nobody else is willing to back up any of their claims with anything other than "I am right, and you are wrong". I am consistently backing up my claims with data from P99, and not "experience", "what I thought live was like", etc.

You can stop at any time:)

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 12:23 PM
If the trolls stopped posting

https://i.imgur.com/g95crDP.jpg

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 12:25 PM
Thanks for proving my point. Still no data, but memes and insults a-plenty! You are just destroying your credibility.

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 12:25 PM
destroying your credibility.

https://i.imgur.com/g95crDP.jpg

Ripqozko
08-31-2022, 12:28 PM
Imagine thinking 23 year old elf simulator forums is where you go for credibility, pro tip no one wins here even tho you think you do.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 12:28 PM
https://i.imgur.com/g95crDP.jpg

Gloomlord
08-31-2022, 12:29 PM
Thanks for proving my point. Still no data, but memes and insults a-plenty! You are just destroying your credibility.

Oh, please! You deserve worse than what Plsnoban is dishing out to you...

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 12:30 PM
Oh, please! You deserve worse than what Plsnoban is dishing out to you...

Yup, people who post evidence to back up their claims are bad (myself). Trolls who turn every thread into an RnF thread are good (PlsNoBan). Great logic there:rolleyes:

Troxx
08-31-2022, 12:31 PM
Imagine thinking 23 year old elf simulator forums is where you go for credibility, pro tip no one wins here even tho you think you do.

I’m always a winner. At least that’s what my mom tells me.


https://c.tenor.com/IwpBV1-KmkQAAAAM/awkward-marketing-rachael-kay-albers.gif

Gloomlord
08-31-2022, 12:32 PM
If you truly believed we were beyond all hope, and only you yourself could see the truth, you yourself would have left long ago.

You're just a troll. Simple as that.

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 12:33 PM
evidence

https://i.imgur.com/tEA4uaT.gif

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 12:36 PM
If you truly believed we were beyond all hope, and only you yourself could see the truth, you yourself would have left long ago.

You're just a troll. Simple as that.

I don't believe you are beyond hope. You are just in a cycle where you think trolling me is fun. Everybody can redeem themselves. But I will keep posting the truth, so anybody else reading can find it.

Gloomlord
08-31-2022, 12:36 PM
In all my years of traversing forums, DSM is definitely one of the most pathetic.

Noone I've seen keeps a topic like this alive this long to prove a point that has already been disproven.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 12:36 PM
I think that’s giving him to much credit. I genuine believe that he genuinely believes he is right. Unfortunately he’s such a short sighted, stubborn, concrete thinker to see the writing on the wall. Failure to acknowledge he is wrong or think abstractly about how others could be right. Barring that … failure to admit defeat in that this is an argument he can’t win (ie convince the other person).

I dunno. Maybe I give him too much credit.

Smells like autism.

Gloomlord
08-31-2022, 12:38 PM
I don't believe you are beyond hope. You are just in a cycle where you think trolling me is fun. Everybody can redeem themselves. But I will keep posting the truth, so anybody else reading can find it.

Are you kidding me right now?!

At *best* one person thinks you may have a point. Everyone else thinks you're either an idiot, autistic or a troll.

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 12:40 PM
I think that’s giving him to much credit. I genuine believe that he genuinely believes he is right. Unfortunately he’s such a short sighted, stubborn, concrete thinker to see the writing on the wall. Failure to acknowledge he is wrong or think abstractly about how others could be right. Barring that … failure to admit defeat in that this is an argument he can’t win (ie convince the other person).

I dunno. Maybe I give him too much credit.

Smells like autism.

Great summary of yourself. You continue to refuse to admit you are wrong, and cling to the silly idea the data you provided is inaccurate, but you don't have to provide better data. For some reason you are special, and the need to provide evidence doesn't apply to you.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 12:41 PM
Remember when we all chortled at the prospect of this bullshit reaching 100 pages?

Seems like only yesterday…

What are the post counts up to now by person?

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 12:42 PM
Remember when we all chortled at the prospect of this bullshit reaching 100 pages?

Seems like only yesterday…

It is a self fulfilling prophecy. You (and others) are the trolls that keep posting memes and insults instead of trying to prove your point:) Clearly you already knew you were going to start trolling when you lost.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 12:42 PM
https://i.imgur.com/g95crDP.jpg

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 12:54 PM
I am not sure why you think that meme is accurate. You can check the post history. I back up my points with logic and data. You have just been trolling. You can't hide it lol.

cd288
08-31-2022, 01:12 PM
It is a self fulfilling prophecy. You (and others) are the trolls that keep posting memes and insults instead of trying to prove your point:) Clearly you already knew you were going to start trolling when you lost.

Most hypocritical statement on this forum in awhile lmao

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 01:17 PM
Most hypocritical statement on this forum in awhile lmao

It isn't. You simply believe people disagreeing with you is trolling lol.

It's pretty clear who the trolls are. Its the people posting memes and insults instead of keeping to the topic at hand. That is the vast majority of Troxx's posts in this thread. He can't hide this fact, you can check his post history.

Even if I was wrong (which currently isn't the case based on the data), the solution isn't to troll people who are wrong lol.

Troxx is trolling hard no matter if he is wrong or right. The post history is clear. I am not trolling, I am simply trying to have a conversation in a sea of trolls. Again, me disagreeing with you isn't trolling.

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 01:34 PM
I back up my points with logic

https://i.imgur.com/SZHBA3j.gif

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 01:35 PM
Thanks for proving my point again:)

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 01:37 PM
https://i.imgur.com/RoymMAJ.gif

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 01:41 PM
You simply believe people disagreeing with you is trolling lol.

You simply have no "argument(s)" to counter my factual statements, and you are simply ashamed of the answers to the simple questions I have posed to you so you deign to choose to pretend they have not been asked.

It's pretty clear who the trolls are. Its the people posting memes and insults instead of keeping to the topic at hand

All I have stated are facts and all I have asked are simple questions yet you continue to call me a troll. I submit this thread and all of both of our posts in it as evidence, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

The post history is clear.

Correct.

I am simply trying to have a conversation

Incorrect. You simply have no "argument(s)" to counter my factual statements, and you are simply ashamed of the answers to the simple questions I have posed to you so you deign to choose to pretend they have not been asked.

Again, me disagreeing with you isn't trolling.

Again, you have accused me of trolling & you have provided zero evidence that I am trolling, despite multiple direct requests to provide such evidence. I submit this entire thread as evidence.


All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows.



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

cd288
08-31-2022, 02:04 PM
Now I know how Biden felt in that debate with Trump lol

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 02:08 PM
Now I know how Biden felt in that debate with Trump lol

If you were being serious about trying to combat trolls, you wouldn't take the side of the obvious trolls in this thread. You would be berating them too. Since you are only targeting me, it is clear you either don't understand what trolling is, or don't actually care. If the trolls are on your side, then you don't think they are trolling.

I feel bad for all of the trolls in this thread. They are just making themselves look bad, and filling their post histories with nonsense.

I will continue to have logical and data driven conversations with people who aren't trolling.

Ripqozko
08-31-2022, 02:09 PM
If you were being serious about trying to combat trolls, you wouldn't take the side of the obvious trolls in this thread. You would be berating them too. Since you are only targeting me, it is clear you either don't understand what trolling is, or don't actually care. If the trolls are on your side, then you don't think they are trolling.

I feel bad for all of the trolls in this thread. They are just making themselves look bad, and filling their post histories with nonsense.

I will continue to have logical and data driven conversations who aren't trolling.

Your self awareness is mind boggling, hope that helps.

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 02:16 PM
I will continue to have logical and data driven conversations

https://media1.giphy.com/media/XgM66sY5pSD4aiPU6F/200.gif

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 02:17 PM
If you were being serious about trying to combat trolls, you wouldn't take the side of the obvious trolls in this thread. You would be berating them too. Since you are only targeting me, it is clear you either don't understand what trolling is, or don't actually care. If the trolls are on your side, then you don't think they are trolling.

If you were being serious about having a civil discussion you would be able and willing to respond to the factual statements I have made and to answer the simple questions I have posed to you. :)

I feel bad for all of the trolls in this thread. They are just making themselves look bad, and filling their post histories with nonsense.

Again, you have provided zero evidence of my trolling despite continuing to call me a troll. Others are not trolls simply because you believe they are or because you state that they are hehe. :)

I will continue to have logical and data driven conversations with people who aren't trolling.

You continue to simply have no "argument(s)" to counter my factual statements, and you simply continue to be ashamed of the answers to the simple questions I have posed to you so you deign to choose to pretend they have not been asked.

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows.



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 02:19 PM
The trolls continue to keep themselves known and obvious. It makes it easy for everybody else to see:)

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 02:19 PM
The trolls continue to keep themselves known and obvious.It makes it easy for everybody else to see:)

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows.



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 02:30 PM
The trolls continue to keep themselves known and obvious

https://i.imgur.com/g95crDP.jpg

Troxx
08-31-2022, 02:31 PM
I will continue to have logical and data driven conversations with people who aren't trolling.

https://c.tenor.com/DKj_JQhjAo8AAAAd/wrong-incorrect.gif

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 02:34 PM
The trolls continue to keep themselves known and obvious. It makes it easy for everybody else to see:)

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 02:36 PM
The trolls continue to keep themselves known and obvious.It makes it easy for everybody else to see:)

Again, you have provided zero evidence of my trolling despite continuing to call me a troll. Others are not trolls simply because you believe they are or because you state that they are hehe. :)


If you were being serious about trying to combat trolls, you wouldn't take the side of the obvious trolls in this thread. You would be berating them too. Since you are only targeting me, it is clear you either don't understand what trolling is, or don't actually care. If the trolls are on your side, then you don't think they are trolling.

If you were being serious about having a civil discussion you would be able and willing to respond to the factual statements I have made and to answer the simple questions I have posed to you. :)

I feel bad for all of the trolls in this thread. They are just making themselves look bad, and filling their post histories with nonsense.

Again, you have provided zero evidence of my trolling despite continuing to call me a troll. Others are not trolls simply because you believe they are or because you state that they are hehe. :)

I will continue to have logical and data driven conversations with people who aren't trolling.

You continue to simply have no "argument(s)" to counter my factual statements, and you simply continue to be ashamed of the answers to the simple questions I have posed to you so you deign to choose to pretend they have not been asked.

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows.



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

cd288
08-31-2022, 02:36 PM
The trolls continue to keep themselves known and obvious. It makes it easy for everybody else to see:)

“Yeah everyone else is the problem not me!”

Toxigen
08-31-2022, 02:37 PM
We def making 200

Troxx
08-31-2022, 02:38 PM
You seem to think that there is a “everyone else” as if scores of silent observers exist and are monitoring this thread for the delicate knowledge nuggets spilling from your gaping face-hole.

There aren’t.

It’s just you and we the other people posting.

cd288
08-31-2022, 02:38 PM
If you were being serious about trying to combat trolls, you wouldn't take the side of the obvious trolls in this thread. You would be berating them too. Since you are only targeting me, it is clear you either don't understand what trolling is, or don't actually care. If the trolls are on your side, then you don't think they are trolling.

I feel bad for all of the trolls in this thread. They are just making themselves look bad, and filling their post histories with nonsense.

I will continue to have logical and data driven conversations with people who aren't trolling.

https://imgur.io/a/sOHFmM1

cd288
08-31-2022, 02:39 PM
You seem to think that there is a “everyone else” as if scores of silent observers exist and are monitoring this thread for the delicate knowledge nuggets spilling from your gaping face-hole.

There aren’t.

It’s just you and we the other people posting.

The silent majority!!!

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 02:39 PM
“Yeah everyone else is the problem not me!”

The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject. - Marcus Aurelius

I know it's easy to just follow the crowd, but that doesn't mean the crowd is correct.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 02:41 PM
https://c.tenor.com/krMOMu4vEo8AAAAd/freshly-squeezed-butt.gif

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 02:41 PM
The trolls continue to keep themselves known and obvious.It makes it easy for everybody else to see:)

Again, you have provided zero evidence of my trolling despite continuing to call me a troll. Others are not trolls simply because you believe they are or because you state that they are hehe. :)


If you were being serious about trying to combat trolls, you wouldn't take the side of the obvious trolls in this thread. You would be berating them too. Since you are only targeting me, it is clear you either don't understand what trolling is, or don't actually care. If the trolls are on your side, then you don't think they are trolling.

If you were being serious about having a civil discussion you would be able and willing to respond to the factual statements I have made and to answer the simple questions I have posed to you. :)

I feel bad for all of the trolls in this thread. They are just making themselves look bad, and filling their post histories with nonsense.

Again, you have provided zero evidence of my trolling despite continuing to call me a troll. Others are not trolls simply because you believe they are or because you state that they are hehe. :)

I will continue to have logical and data driven conversations with people who aren't trolling.

You continue to simply have no "argument(s)" to counter my factual statements, and you simply continue to be ashamed of the answers to the simple questions I have posed to you so you deign to choose to pretend they have not been asked.

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows.



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 02:43 PM
The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject. - Marcus Aurelius

How about when all of them know a lot about the subject and all agree you have no idea what you're talking about?

Troxx
08-31-2022, 02:46 PM
How about when all of them know a lot about the subject and all agree you have no idea what you're talking about?

That would be entirely to logical.

https://c.tenor.com/W-42HlChzwAAAAAd/rainn-wilson.gif

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 02:47 PM
How about when all of them know a lot about the subject and all agree you have no idea what you're talking about?

The data so far still proves all of the opposition wrong. I am sorry data trumps "experience".

You have no evidence to back up your claims, or evidence to counter mine. It would be easy to prove me wrong if your claims are correct, but you would rather spend all your time trolling.

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 02:53 PM
The data so far still proves all of the opposition wrong. I am sorry data trumps "experience".

You have claimed I am a troll and you have provided zero evidence (despite multiple direct requests that you provide such evidence). I submit this entire thread & both of our posts in it as evidence. Again, you have provided no counterevidence.

You have no evidence to back up your claims, or evidence to counter mine.

Incorrect. The evidence is visible to all in this thread that I have (multiple times) provided this entire thread and all posts in it as my direct, indisputable evidence. You have not responded to the factual statements I have made, nor have you answered the simple questions I have posed to you hehe. :) These are facts, they remain facts independent of what you type or how you feel.

It would be easy to prove me wrong if your claims are correct

Correct, and this has been done multiple times and you remain in your corner silently conceding hehe. :)

but you would rather spend all your time trolling.

Again, you have claimed I am a troll and you have provided zero evidence (despite multiple direct requests that you provide such evidence). I submit this entire thread & both of our posts in it as evidence. Again, you have provided no counterevidence.


All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows.



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

Kich867
08-31-2022, 03:01 PM
For fun, from the earlier conversation about how much levels matter, I happen to still have my logs from when I was soloing on my warrior, I wrote a simple parser to pull and summarize the data for all of my Chasm Crawler kills from levels 16-19.

During this time I exclusively killed blue ones. The number is what level I was, my hits aren't how hard I hit, just how many times I hit on average in these fights.

Weapons were: Bullsmasher and Longsword (from a vendor, just the weapon called "Longsword". The TTK listed here is in seconds for easier reading but I didn't convert it later on.

{
"16": {
"averageMyHits": 34.54,
"averageMyMisses": 12.27,
"averageMyDps": 3.89,
"averageTheirHits": 14.18,
"averageTheirDps": 1.51,
"averageTtk": 85.59,
"count": 22
},
"17": {
"averageMyHits": 35.91,
"averageMyMisses": 11.97,
"averageMyDps": 4.45,
"averageTheirHits": 11.02,
"averageTheirDps": 1.15,
"averageTtk": 76.43,
"count": 48
},
"18": {
"averageMyHits": 31,
"averageMyMisses": 8.33,
"averageMyDps": 4.84,
"averageTheirHits": 9.92,
"averageTheirDps": 1.13,
"averageTtk": 70.29,
"count": 54
}
}

Chasm Crawlers range from levels 11-13, so at 16 all of them are blue. Note the massive difference in TTK (Time to kill) from level 16 to 17, this is due to somewhat frequently running into mobs only 3 levels below me, the data shows that these fights take significantly longer. It's the most noticeable level in which you can absolutely tell whether I'm fighting a level 11 mob or a level 13 mob because the results are consistently very different between them.

For example, a lot of my fights at level 16 against these snakes looked like this, start/end are linux timestamps, TTK is in ms: this is almost certainly a level 13 snake (which actually isn't that hard to prove since mob max damage per hit statically scales with their level for the vast majority of monsters so I might go snag that data point later).
{
"start": 1588113011000,
"myHits": 42,
"theirHits": 20,
"myMisses": 18,
"end": 1588113136000,
"timeToKill": 125000,
"myDps": 2.728,
"theirDps": 1.344
}

Compare this to many of my fights at that level that look like this:

{
"start": 1588114078000,
"myHits": 30,
"theirHits": 12,
"myMisses": 8,
"end": 1588114147000,
"timeToKill": 69000,
"myDps": 4.521739130434782,
"theirDps": 1.3623188405797102
}

Which is almost certainly against a level 11 mob, someone I'm 5 levels above. Note how many fewer hits it takes to kill since I'm hitting for more more often, how many fewer hits I take, and how much less I miss.

At level 18, I was exclusively fighting level 13 snakes, as they're the only ones that con blue at that point. I think its fairly clear that, being 4 or 5 levels above an enemy VS being 2-3 levels above an enemy makes a massive difference in combat even at this low of a level. This gap closes as you gain levels, but that's also why the Blue con gap widens, when you're level 35 you're really looking for level 25 mobs to maintain this kind of lead.

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 03:15 PM
The data so far still proves all of the opposition wrong. I am sorry data trumps "experience".

You have no evidence to back up your claims, or evidence to counter mine. It would be easy to prove me wrong if your claims are correct, but you would rather spend all your time trolling.

Unanimous experience of many people > faulty and biased data from 1 person.

Sorry to break the bad news

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 03:17 PM
Thanks for the data Kitch867! It's much better than the ceaseless trolling of the other posters.

Nobody has argued that level makes no difference when fighting mobs. I know you are not suggesting that, but this stuff gets lost in the trolling. I know people think I argued that, since I simply asked for some data lol (big sin for some reason here). The post history is there for anybody who thinks this is wrong.

People just got angry when I ask them to provide data, which is the usual problem in this thread. Their claim was a charmed pet is going to massively out-DPS a Warrior, and that my data was simply wrong because the mob I was fighting was lower level.

However, I have shown data where I can maintain higher DPS than a charmed mob on a mob of equal level to my Warrior in the 1-30 range. Nobody is arguing this is true at higher levels, even though people will probably try to claim that. But again, the post history is clear.

Everquest mobs are balanced to be much easier in the low levels (1-39). Level difference at low levels makes less of a difference because mob stats are scaled down too. This is why in the lower levels you can actually solo yellow or even red mobs sometimes, but you can no longer do that in the higher levels.

Unanimous experience of many people > faulty and biased data from 1 person.

Sorry to break the bad news

More like "angry trolls who can't admit they are wrong, regardless of what 'experience' they have" < hard data.

Sorry you don't got data. Hope this helps.

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 03:29 PM
Thanks for the data Kitch867! It's much better than the ceaseless trolling of the other posters.

Why don't you provide the relevant/requested data instead of ceaselessly and baselessly continuing to label others trolls? Reminder: others are not trolls simply because you think that they are or because you state that they are hehe. :)

I simply asked for some data lol (big sin for some reason here)

I have provided you with plenty factual data points, you simply continue to remain in your corner silently conceding rather than attempt to counter them hehe. :)

I also simply asked you for data in the form of responses to my factual statements & answers to my simple questions (big sin for some reason here hehe :)) but you continue to remain in your corner silently conceding rather than provide hard data (or any reply at all hehe) as is clearly visible in the post history. :)

The post history is there for anybody who thinks this is wrong.

Correct hehe. :)



People just got angry when I ask them to provide data, which is the usual problem in this thread.

What evidence do you have to support this claim? You do not know how other posters feel, regardless of what their posts may cause you to think you know. You can post whatever you want and feel however you want about it, it will not change this fact.

Their claim was a charmed pet is going to massively out-DPS a Warrior, and that my data was simply wrong because the mob I was fighting was lower level.

What they ACTUALLY claimed is visible in this thread's post history and is viewable by all hehe. :)


I have shown data



All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows.



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

cd288
08-31-2022, 03:48 PM
This is getting amusing now

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 04:11 PM
I'm like slightly worried DSM has actual mental issues and I'm gonna feel bad for making fun of him so much. It's reaching a point where I think there might really be some screws loose.

Crede
08-31-2022, 04:17 PM
I'm like slightly worried DSM has actual mental issues and I'm gonna feel bad for making fun of him so much. It's reaching a point where I think there might really be some screws loose.

Let’s be honest most of us have at least minor mental issues engaging in some intense theorycraft discussion of a group composition that will likely never happen in a random community of a few thousand people who play a simulated time locked version of a game created over 20 years ago in which all corrections were made in the modern era.

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 04:18 PM
I'm like slightly worried DSM has actual mental issues and I'm gonna feel bad for making fun of him so much. It's reaching a point where I think there might really be some screws loose.

No evidence to support this. I am honestly more worried about the people like yourself who keep calling other people "autistic" when you don't get your way in a conversation. If you really think I am autistic, it is really sad that like 8 people are trolling an autistic person for no reason. These 8 people can't even provide basic evidence for their own claims lol. It is 8 vs 1 and they still lose to someone who they believe is autistic.

There is nothing about this situation that makes you look good, and you haven't even been able to say anything other than "I am right, and you are wrong", or "I don't like your data, therefore it is wrong". Those aren't valid arguments. I could say the same thing, and we would be at an impasse.

Kich867
08-31-2022, 04:25 PM
I know people think I argued that, since I simply asked for some data lol (big sin for some reason here). The post history is there for anybody who thinks this is wrong.

I was addressing this:

If you think a Warrior at level 24 is going to lose a large chunk of DPS by fighting a level 22 mob, just show the parse. I can tell you they won't [...]

In response to your initial parse against a mob ~8 levels lower than you.

My point is that you do, even at that level, lose a pretty noticeable amount of DPS. Maybe not if you're as geared as your character is, perhaps having enough Strength offsets it, but I don't think a single parse demonstrates that well enough.

The difference between being 3, 4, or 5 levels above a mob is pretty substantial. Being consistently 5 levels above this mob my average TTK was ~70s, being somewhere between 3-5 levels above this mob my average TTK was ~85s, and if I were to filter it to the ones I can confirm are 3 levels below me the TTK is much closer to ~100s.

The amount of times I miss a mob 3 levels below me compared to a mob 5 levels below me is significantly higher when it's 3 levels below me. And the amount of times I hit is significantly higher, indicating that I'm hitting for far less on average against these mobs because I'm not high rolling them as often.

I think it's misleading to suggest that you don't lose much DPS fighting things only a few levels below you, especially since you can have some seriously swingy fights--some of my parses involve lucky strings of crits that are counterbalanced by unlucky fights where I miss a lot over the course of 100 or so parses. In your own parse you did substantially more DPS against a higher level enemy than you did against a low level enemy, which to me would suggest thats an outlier.

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 04:26 PM
like 8 people are trolling an autistic person

You are baselessly & ceaselessly claiming that others are trolling hehe. :) Others are not trolls just because you think they are or claim that they are. You can choose to type whatever you wish and feel however you want, it will not change this fact.

These 8 people can't even provide basic evidence for their own claims lol.

No. I have provided all the relevant/requested data. You should try it some time instead of conceding silently in the corner with your head hung hehe while I continue to state facts that you are unable to refute and pose questions you are too ashamed to answer. :)

you haven't even been able to prove your own case beyond "I am right, and you are wrong".

You have not even attempted to prove your case hehe. :) All you can do is call me a troll and sit conceding silently in your corner. I submit this entire thread as my evidence, and you have yet to provide counterevidence despite multiple direct requests hehe. :)


No evidence to support this.

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 04:32 PM
I was addressing this:



In response to your initial parse against a mob ~8 levels lower than you.

My point is that you do, even at that level, lose a pretty noticeable amount of DPS. Maybe not if you're as geared as your character is, perhaps having enough Strength offsets it, but I don't think a single parse demonstrates that well enough.

The difference between being 3, 4, or 5 levels above a mob is pretty substantial. Being consistently 5 levels above this mob my average TTK was ~70s, being somewhere between 3-5 levels above this mob my average TTK was ~85s, and if I were to filter it to the ones I can confirm are 3 levels below me the TTK is much closer to ~100s.

The amount of times I miss a mob 3 levels below me compared to a mob 5 levels below me is significantly higher when it's 3 levels below me. And the amount of times I hit is significantly higher, indicating that I'm hitting for far less on average against these mobs because I'm not high rolling them as often.

I think it's misleading to suggest that you don't lose much DPS fighting things only a few levels below you, especially since you can have some seriously swingy fights--some of my parses involve lucky strings of crits that are counterbalanced by unlucky fights where I miss a lot over the course of 100 or so parses. In your own parse you did substantially more DPS against a higher level enemy than you did against a low level enemy, which to me would suggest thats an outlier.

I have shown that I didn't lose a large amount of DPS, and not enough to be below the charmed pet, which was the point. Even if the average shakes out to something closer to 19 DPS, that doesn't mean the charmed pet has some sort of heavy advantage.

I 100% agree more data would be better to get the true averages, but the same argument can be made for the pet DPS. It will have highs and lows too.

I am just giving out some quick data that I acquired to disprove obviously silly claims like a low level charmed pet is going to "massively" out-DPS a low level Warrior. If the warrior has low gear like yourself, this may be true. But the reality is most people can afford some minor twink gear (2k is a small sum of money), so I think it is not reasonable to make this assumption unless the thread is specifically talking about making a "self-found only" group.

The reality is I have given out way more data than all of the opposition combined, and it's never enough. They will not believe hours of parse data or a single parse hehe. It's much easier to just say "I am right because other people agree with me".

cd288
08-31-2022, 04:39 PM
I would love to see if we can keep this dude ranting until 200+ pages lol

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 04:41 PM
I would love to see if we can keep this dude ranting until 200+ pages lol

Yup, there it is. You know you are wrong, you just want to troll:)

Troxx
08-31-2022, 04:48 PM
As you typically love to do you posted one log of one fight and parade it around as data/evidence. If you’re so confident your data is accurate why not do an aggregate of multiple fights? You know like 5-10 fights? Why not have the charming mob fighting the same mob/type level as the warrior?

Why didn’t you join a fast paced group for an hour or two like we asked you? Why not do that and aggregate the data for an extended session? Why did you just post single fight logs of you root rotting a level 40 frog as a substitute?

Too much work?
Scared of the results?

https://c.tenor.com/qh-IYhG3C1IAAAAC/its-time-nut-up.gif

Remember that GIF? I tossed it out there a few times when I challenged you to prove what you could do in a fast paced group. I stopped legitimately having a discussion with you the moment I threw down the gauntlet and laid out the ground rules and you refused or just changed directions.

You didn’t have the balls to nut up.
You lack the humility to shut up like most non-autistic cowards would do in similar circumstances.

Such a tool

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 04:48 PM
I have shown that I didn't lose a large amount of DPS,

You "have shown" that you are disingenuous about what normal people (read: the rest of us; everybody except for you) would consider to be a "large amount". I submit your posts in this thread, particularly (but not limited to) regarding the DPS difference between Shaman and Mage as my evidence hehe. :)

The reality is I have given out way more data than all of the opposition combined, and it's never enough. They will not believe hours of parse data or a single parse hehe. .

The reality is that you thinking something does not make it a fact, and your thoughts do not and can not refute or change the actual/true facts hehe. :) You can type whatever you wish and feel however you feel, it is not going to change this.

It's much easier to just say "I am right because other people agree with me"

You have provided no evidence that anybody has made that claim. What has ACTUALLY been claimed is visible in this thread's post history, viewable by all.

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 04:49 PM
As you typically love to do you posted one log of one fight and parade it around as data/evidence. If you’re so confident your data is accurate why not do an aggregate of multiple fights? You know like 5-10 fights? Why not have the charming mob fighting the same mob/type level as the warrior?

Why didn’t you join a fast paced group for an hour or two like we asked you? Why not do that and aggregate the data for an extended session? Why did you just post single fight logs of you root rotting a level 40 frog as a substitute?

Too much work?
Scared of the results?

https://c.tenor.com/qh-IYhG3C1IAAAAC/its-time-nut-up.gif

Remember that GIF? I tossed it out there a few times when I challenged you to prove what you could do in a fast paced group. I stopped legitimately having a discussion with you the moment I threw down the gauntlet and laid out the ground rules and you refused or just changed directions.

You didn’t have the balls to nut up.
You lack the humility to shut up like most non-autistic cowards would do in similar circumstances.

Such a tool

If you are so confident you are right, please post data you claim isn't from a faulty parser.

I have video evidence with logs. You have nothing but faulty data. You need to provide better evidence first lol.

This is your flaw. For some reason you believe that you don't need to provide evidence, everybody else does.

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 04:50 PM
As you typically love to do you posted one log of one fight and parade it around as data/evidence. If you’re so confident your data is accurate why not do an aggregate of multiple fights? You know like 5-10 fights? Why not have the charming mob fighting the same mob/type level as the warrior?

Why didn’t you join a fast paced group for an hour or two like we asked you? Why not do that and aggregate the data for an extended session? Why did you just post single fight logs of you root rotting a level 40 frog as a substitute?

Too much work?
Scared of the results?

https://c.tenor.com/qh-IYhG3C1IAAAAC/its-time-nut-up.gif

Remember that GIF? I tossed it out there a few times when I challenged you to prove what you could do in a fast paced group. I stopped legitimately having a discussion with you the moment I threw down the gauntlet and laid out the ground rules and you refused or just changed directions.

You didn’t have the balls to nut up.
You lack the humility to shut up like most non-autistic cowards would do in similar circumstances.

Such a tool

He literally cherrypicks data using variables that favor his chosen argument and repeats it over and over then is surprised when nobody gives it any weight. If he isn't actually mentally challenged this is the stupidest human being I've ever conversed with.

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 04:51 PM
He literally cherrypicks data using variables that favor his chosen argument and repeats it over and over then is surprised when nobody gives it any weight. If he isn't actually mentally challenged this is the stupidest human being I've ever conversed with.

You literally have zero data and think it's better, and are surprised when people disagree with you.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 04:52 PM
The data was not faulty. I fully explained what happens when you aggregate. I broke out individual fights from the aggregate.

I did precisely what you asked me to do. You, on the other hand haven’t even tried. Worse, however, you chose to ignore the discussion and skew said parses I gave you with your twisted DSM logic and mathematical gymnastics to fit your personally desired talking points.

Lol this is hilarious

cd288
08-31-2022, 04:52 PM
Yup, there it is. You know you are wrong, you just want to troll:)

Not at all. We’ve all proved you wrong multiple times. But since you have some sort of issue where you just can’t accept it and move on I’m curious to see how many long winded ranting posts you’ll write lol

Troxx
08-31-2022, 04:53 PM
He literally cherrypicks data using variables that favor his chosen argument and repeats it over and over then is surprised when nobody gives it any weight. If he isn't actually mentally challenged this is the stupidest human being I've ever conversed with.

Yes. We all know this.

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 04:53 PM
You literally have zero data and think it's better, and are surprised when people disagree with you.

Only 1 person disagrees with me and his mental state is questionable at best. I feel pretty good about where I stand regardless of your irrelevant opinion.

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 04:53 PM
If you are so confident you are right, please post data you claim isn't from a faulty parser.

You have provided zero evidence that the parser Troxx used is faulty. You may type whatever you wish & feel however you feel about it, it will not change this fact.

I have video evidence with logs.

Have you provided the relevant/requested data/evidence of your Shaman DPSing in a high level, fast-paced-killing DPS group? Please indicate where that data/evidence was provided.

You have nothing but faulty data.

You have not provided any evidence to prove this claim.

You need to provide better evidence first lol.

You need to provide the relevant/requested data/evidence. Or any reply at all hehe. :)

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 04:55 PM
The data was not faulty. I fully explained what happens when you aggregate. I broke out individual fights from the aggregate.

I did precisely what you asked me to do. You, on the other hand haven’t even tried. Worse, however, you chose to ignore the discussion and skew said parses I gave you with your twisted DSM logic and mathematical gymnastics to fit your personally desired talking points.

Lol this is hilarious

You have no proof of your claims that your parser reduces your mage DPS by 30%. The only reason why you think this is because the monk who is pulling is losing 30% DPS. If your claim was correct, the Monk would be losing more than 30% DPS, because the parser is undervaluing his data, AND he is losing DPS due to pulling.

I gave you video evidence and log evidence. It is superior to your evidence. The flaw with your logic is you believe DPS will change in a group. Mob stats do not change, so this is simply wrong. Once you knew you were backed into a corner, you have since played this silly semantics game of "you didn't give me the evidence I wanted in the specific manner I requested it, therefore it's wrong". Sorry, that isn't a valid argument lol, and it doesn't disprove my data.

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 04:58 PM
You have no proof of your claims that your parser reduces your mage DPS by 30%. The only reason why you think this is because the monk who is pulling is losing 30% DPS. If your claim was correct, the Monk would be losing more than 30% DPS, because the parser is undervaluing his data, AND he is losing DPS due to pulling.

You baselessly and ceaselessly claiming something does not make it true. It has to actually be true hehe. :) You can type whatever you wish and you can feel however you feel about it, it will not change the facts.

I gave you video evidence and log evidence. It is superior to your evidence. The flaw with your logic is you believe DPS will change in a group. Mob stats do not change, so this is simply wrong. Once you knew you were backed into a corner, you have since played this silly semantics game of "you didn't give me the evidence I wanted in the specific manner I requested it, therefore it's wrong". Sorry, that isn't a valid argument lol, and it doesn't disprove my data.

You did not provide the relevant/requested data. You thinking that you provided the relevant/requested data does not make it true. You may type whatever you wish and feel however you wish, it is not going to change these facts.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 05:03 PM
You have no proof of your claims that your parser reduces your mage DPS by 30%. The only reason why you think this is because the monk who is pulling is losing 30% DPS. If your claim was correct, the Monk would be losing more than 30% DPS, because the parser is undervaluing his data, AND he is losing DPS due to pulling.

I gave you video evidence and log evidence. It is superior to your evidence. The flaw with your logic is you believe DPS will change in a group. Mob stats do not change, so this is simply wrong. Once you knew you were backed into a corner, you have since played this silly semantics game of "you didn't give me the evidence I wanted in the specific manner I requested it, therefore it's wrong". Sorry, that isn't a valid argument lol, and it doesn't disprove my data.

The other mage pet in that aggregate is an epic mage pet. You think it’s dps is that low too?

Ps parsers only start when the damage starts. He wasn’t out there flopping mobs into camp. This is crypt where we never had to deal with a pull larger than 2 or 3. You’ll notice we had no rogue so yeah … none of the back room and Emperor was on the menu.

So much for the “he was out pulling” bs.

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 05:06 PM
The other mage pet in that aggregate is an epic mage pet. You think it’s dps is that low too?

Ah I was hoping you would get to that:) Just take a look at the total seconds it fought. It fought for a total of 109 seconds, where you fought for 600 seconds It has like 1/6 of the fight time you and your pet has. For all we know, it could have simply been fighting a bit better than average.

Plus, nobody has argued an Epic Pet will deal more damage than a regular pet. The unfortunate truth is Mage Epics are just really rare. Personally I wouldn't really count Mage Epics, because the chances of you actually grouping with someone who has it is pretty rare. It's much more common to group with a Torpor Shaman, for example.


Ps parsers only start when the damage starts. He wasn’t out there flopping mobs into camp. This is crypt where we never had to deal with a pull larger than 2 or 3. You’ll notice we had no rogue so yeah … none of the back room and Emperor was on the menu.

So much for the “he was out pulling” bs.

Without video you can't prove your pull patterns, or how often the Monk was in camp. You yourself said his DPS was lower due to pulling.


See the monk's time engaged and you can see why he was below the SK and lower than me to such a degree; he spent a lot of time not engaged. What you can see is that mage dps is very good. This parse undervalues on the combine by a good 30% as my parse system is not perfect.

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 05:08 PM
Without video you can't prove your pull patterns, or how often the Monk was in camp. You yourself said his DPS was lower due to pulling.

Without being in a high level fast-paced-killing DPS group & parsing/recording/etc. you can't prove your Shaman's DPS in a high level fast-paced-killing DPS group. You can type whatever you want (or not hehe :)) it is not going to change this simple fact.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 05:10 PM
I challenge you to put in the sweat equity. Join a fast moving high dps group. Play pure offense and show us the numbers you can manage fight after fight after fight. Aggregate or break separately all you want. I recommend using a parser. Do the thing you claim you can do.

https://c.tenor.com/qh-IYhG3C1IAAAAC/its-time-nut-up.gif

But I know you won’t. If you did, I already know what the numbers would show. Maybe you do too which is why you are unwilling.

Until you grow some balls (and preferably a few more brain cells to rub together), you have effectively conceded that you are wrong.

And since you’re wrong … back to amusing GIFs!

Troxx
08-31-2022, 05:11 PM
https://c.tenor.com/TYQuUYrQQiUAAAAM/poopie-poopy.gif

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 05:12 PM
I challenge you to put in the sweat equity. Join a fast moving high dps group. Play pure offense and show us the numbers you can manage fight after fight after fight. Aggregate or break separately all you want. I recommend using a parser. Do the thing you claim you can do.

https://c.tenor.com/qh-IYhG3C1IAAAAC/its-time-nut-up.gif

But I know you won’t. If you did, I already know what the numbers would show. Maybe you do too which is why you are unwilling.

Until you grow some balls (and preferably a few more brain cells to rub together), you have effectively conceded that you are wrong.

And since you’re wrong … back to amusing GIFs!

You first:) You need to provide evidence that matches your own standards before I provide evidence that matches your standards. So far you are missing a lot of data, and you know it.

My video/log evidence trumps your parse data you claim is wrong.

I see you didn't respond to what I said, and are instead going back to copy/paste.

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 05:13 PM
I see you didn't respond to what I said

Hehe. :)

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

Kich867
08-31-2022, 05:14 PM
The other mage pet in that aggregate is an epic mage pet. You think it’s dps is that low too?

Just wondering, with this parse, do you ever recall having to zone out for any reason? Or have a mob maybe die too far away from you for the mob dying to write to the log? Not sure if that second one actually happens in the game, if you kill something really far away I know you still get the XP message but idk if you get the indication it died.

I ask because in the parser I whipped up while babying this big ass data migration at work...that was a standout issue that had to be addressed in the data.

I used the first attack after a "so and so has been slain" line to capture the fight start time, then the slain message to capture the end time, but a few of those fights I had to run for whatever reason so it thought the fight was very long skewing the DPS for that "fight" to be extremely low which fucked with the averages.

On one hand the logs in EQ are pretty solid for parsing since the messaging is super uniform, on the other, its easy for shit like that to fuck with the data because it can be difficult to adequately identify when combat "starts" and "ends". For instance, if you have multiple mobs, you have multiple kill messages, knowing when to start capturing data is easy but knowing when to stop can be difficult (i.e. how long you should wait until your parser decides combat is officially "over" and you aren't just waiting for the tank to get aggro on the second mob kind of thing).

Troxx
08-31-2022, 05:16 PM
Yeah parser is great for individual fights but it gets weird with aggregate. I almost regret posting the aggregate with the explanation. It was a mistake because DSM is apparently unintelligent and basic reading comprehension and abstract reasoning is beyond him.

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 05:17 PM
Just wondering, with this parse, do you ever recall having to zone out for any reason? Or have a mob maybe die too far away from you for the mob dying to write to the log? Not sure if that second one actually happens in the game, if you kill something really far away I know you still get the XP message but idk if you get the indication it died.

I ask because in the parser I whipped up while babying this big ass data migration at work...that was a standout issue that had to be addressed in the data.

I used the first attack after a "so and so has been slain" line to capture the fight start time, then the slain message to capture the end time, but a few of those fights I had to run for whatever reason so it thought the fight was very long skewing the DPS for that "fight" to be extremely low which fucked with the averages.

On one hand the logs in EQ are pretty solid for parsing since the messaging is super uniform, on the other, its easy for shit like that to fuck with the data because it can be difficult to adequately identify when combat "starts" and "ends". For instance, if you have multiple mobs, you have multiple kill messages, knowing when to start capturing data is easy but knowing when to stop can be difficult (i.e. how long you should wait until your parser decides combat is officially "over" and you aren't just waiting for the tank to get aggro on the second mob kind of thing).

You are correct, log data can be lost because the messages only appear at a certain distance. That is why I purposely stayed close to the mobs in my videos, so I didn't lose anything. All parsers just use the log data, so they have the same issue.

Troxx hasn't provided logs, so we don't know if he lost data, or how his parser is handling the data.

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 05:18 PM
Yeah parser is great for individual fights but it gets weird with aggregate. I almost regret posting the aggregate with the explanation. It was a mistake because DSM is apparently unintelligent and basic reading comprehension and abstract reasoning is beyond him.

I comprehend it just fine. You just don't realize that we can't prove how accurate your data is, because we don't have the logs, and we don't know how your parser works. I am not sure why we just have to trust everything is correct:) If we had the logs we could parse it manually, there would be no need to trust any parser.

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 05:21 PM
That is why I purposely stayed close to the mobs in my videos, so I didn't lose anything. All parsers just use the log data, so they have the same issue.

You purposely stayed close to the mobs that you were killing while your Shaman was NOT part of a high level fast-paced-killing DPS group, correct. This would also be the reason that you did not provide the relevant/requested data hehe. :)



Troxx hasn't provided logs, so we don't know if he lost data, or how his parser is handling the data.

One thing that we DO know for sure is that you have not provided the relevant/requested data hehe. :)

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

Ripqozko
08-31-2022, 05:22 PM
Imagine living with this guy, yikes.

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 05:22 PM
II am not sure why we just have to trust everything is correct:)

I am not sure why we just have to trust that your DPS will be the same solo as it would be when in a high level fast-paced-killing DPS group hehe. :)

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 05:26 PM
I kind of pity VQ members having to regularly put up with this

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 05:28 PM
I pity the trolls to be honest. Clearly they have serious issues admitting they are wrong, to the point where they will post literally hundreds of insults and memes to drown out information they can't handle.

cd288
08-31-2022, 05:29 PM
I pity the trolls to be honest. Clearly they have serious issues admitting they are wrong, to the point where they will post literally hundreds of insults and memes to drown out information they can't handle.

I do not know how you cannot see that you literally just described yourself lol

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 05:29 PM
I pity the trolls to be honest. Clearly they have serious issues admitting they are wrong, to the point where they will post literally hundreds of insults and memes to drown out information they can't handle.

Good thing there are posters like myself here who continue to attempt discuss civilly hehe. :) I will not & have not posted baseless insults nor memes, yet for some reason you seem to be silently conceding in the corner still hehe. :)

You have yet to provide the relevant/requested data/evidence.

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 05:31 PM
I do not know how you cannot see that you literally just described yourself lol

You can take a look at the post history lol. I am not the one with hundreds of insult/meme posts.

The data is still there, and still accurate. These posts won't change the facts.

cd288
08-31-2022, 05:32 PM
New players please do not listen to this person you will very much regret it

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 05:33 PM
Clearly they have serious issues admitting they are wrong, to the point where they will post (the same bad data and arguments) literally hundreds (of times)

https://i.imgur.com/ZWpgSa6.png

Nobody has posted "hundreds" of times except DSM lol. Closin in on 500 buddy keep truckin!

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 05:33 PM
New players please do not listen to this person you will very much regret it

The warning should be to ignore the trolls who keep posting memes/insults because they can't handle facts:)

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 05:35 PM
The warning should be for the trolls who keep posting memes/insults because they can't handle facts:)

Fact: DSM has not provided the relevant/requested data/evidence. :) He may choose to post whatever he wishes, he may feel however he feels about it, it will not change the fact hehe. :)

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.


as the data shows



You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...401629&page=37.

How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.



No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

Troxx
08-31-2022, 05:57 PM
Until such time as DSM actually accepts the challenge and posts the results he has conceded.

To all my fellow trolls feel free to quote this post as your only reply (other than maybe entertaining GIFs)

Thread is over until then.

https://c.tenor.com/NiDYDp8f0XcAAAAM/throwing-up-puke.gif

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 05:59 PM
Until such time as DSM actually accepts the challenge and posts the results he has conceded.

To all my fellow trolls feel free to quote this post as your only reply (other than maybe entertaining GIFs)

Thread is over until then.

https://c.tenor.com/NiDYDp8f0XcAAAAM/throwing-up-puke.gif

Sorry, but you are not the overlord of this thread. So far my data is video evidence with logs that can be cross referenced to the video. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Your data is a few screenshots of parse data you claim is inaccurate.

All of the other frequent posters haven't provided any evidence, and are basically trolling. You are also trolling

The thread is over until you can provide better evidence than what you have. Your current data doesn't match your own standards.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 06:01 PM
Until such time as DSM actually accepts the challenge and posts the results he has conceded.

To all my fellow trolls feel free to quote this post as your only reply (other than maybe entertaining GIFs)

Thread is over until then.

https://c.tenor.com/I_zcNoBp71kAAAAM/bike-penis.gif

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 06:01 PM
Sorry, but you are not the overlord of this thread. So far my data is video evidence with logs that can be cross referenced to the video. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Your data is a few screenshots of parse data you claim is inaccurate.

All of the other frequent posters haven't provided any evidence, and are basically trolling. You are also trolling

The thread is over until you can provide better evidence than what you have. Your current data doesn't match your own standards.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 06:03 PM
https://c.tenor.com/Cl7lk5rCNHEAAAAM/dick.gif

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 06:06 PM
So far my data is evidence

... that you have not provided the relevant/requested data/evidence. This really isn't hard hehe. :)

Your data is a few screenshots of parse data you claim is inaccurate.

No. You believing and/or claiming that something is true (such as that Troxx claims his data is inaccurate) does not make it true. It has to actually be true hehe. :)
The thread and the posts within are self-evident if anyone wishes to see what Troxx has ACTUALLY claimed/explained about his data.

All of the other frequent posters haven't provided any evidence, and are basically trolling.

No. You believing and/or claiming that something is true (such as that other posters are trolling) does not make it true. It has to actually be true hehe. :) The thread and the posts within are self-evident.


All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.

as the data shows.


You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.


How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.


No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

cyxthryth
08-31-2022, 06:09 PM
Until such time as DSM actually accepts the challenge and posts the results he has conceded.

I accepted his concession in advance in my very first post on this thread hehe. :)


I can only speak for myself, but your inevitable concession in silence for this thread is accepted in advance. :)

Ooloo
08-31-2022, 06:12 PM
Has anyone provided data on which classes are most likely to be played well by their respective players?

An enchanter who sucks is not valuable. I'd like to think this is all purely data-driven and analytical, like min-maxers should prefer, but it also might just be a fruitless ego circle jerk!

Troxx
08-31-2022, 06:15 PM
We kind of discussed at least insofar as how easy is to play a mage … even acutely after a stroke. You literally have nothing to do but send in your pet and sling nukes as often as mana allows

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 07:38 PM
Has anyone provided data on which classes are most likely to be played well by their respective players?

An enchanter who sucks is not valuable. I'd like to think this is all purely data-driven and analytical, like min-maxers should prefer, but it also might just be a fruitless ego circle jerk!

I did caveat in a few of my posts that the enchanter has to be good for anything I'm saying to be applicable. If you're an enc that uses animations in groups and barely does anything but mez and cast c2 then all bets are off.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 08:22 PM
Indeed … for all relevant discussions thus far we are assuming the player is paying attention and understands (at a minimum) the very basics of their class to a high level of proficiency and is operating thusly.


Some of us here have played most major classes aggressively to 60

Others have a level 60 shaman, 59 sk, and a few scrub alts but think they are lord Jesus divinely inspired to educate the rest of us on math/logic/evidence.

(Lookin at you DSM)

I am only hopeful his posting reprieve is him at a high level camp with a high dps crew trying to dps on his shaman.

But he isn’t. We all know it.

I hate to admit it but over the last 22-23 years I’m pretty sure I’ve logged 5x more total hours played in EQ than DSM and at least 1000x more hours actually parsing and understanding this game we all love. Pathetic right?

But unlike this other fuck-monkey I actually have undergraduate bachelors in math, statistics, biomedical sciences and physics … and a doctorate in medicine with another 3 years post doctorate in higher education.

These days I do patient care and publish statistics and other BS in major medical journals.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 08:33 PM
https://c.tenor.com/AXrzK4g5NIkAAAAC/the-balls-in-your-court-homie.gif

Prove us all wrong DSM. My mind is wide open to be changed. Put in the sweat equity and prove to me otherwise and I’ll concede.

Otherwise you’re just a try-hard, blow-hard cherry picking whatever “data” supports your agenda.

You will notice that Danth went silent. One of the few allies you had and for whom I have the utmost respect. He knows me. I know him. Great guy but in the end he and I both know you gotta actually do the leg work to prove a dang thing.

Ps: on live I only submitted parses at least 2-3 hours long.

PPS: here can’t box so more wild cards

Nut up shut up. As much as I would like to giggle this thread all the way to 200 pages this is a failboat for you. For me? Im having fun. Let’s take it to 300!

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 08:34 PM
Indeed … for all relevant discussions thus far we are assuming the player is paying attention and understands (at a minimum) the very basics of their class to a high level of proficiency and is operating thusly.


Some of us here have played most major classes aggressively to 60

Others have a level 60 shaman, 59 sk, and a few scrub alts but think they are lord Jesus divinely inspired to educate the rest of us on math/logic/evidence.

(Lookin at you DSM)

I am only hopeful his posting reprieve is him at a high level camp with a high dps crew trying to dps on his shaman.

But he isn’t. We all know it.

I hate to admit it but over the last 22-23 years I’m pretty sure I’ve logged 5x more total hours played in EQ than DSM and at least 1000x more hours actually parsing and understanding this game we all love. Pathetic right?

But unlike this other fuck-monkey I actually have undergraduate bachelors in math, statistics, biomedical sciences and physics … and a doctorate in medicine with another 3 years post doctorate in higher education.

These days I do patient care and publish statistics and other BS in major medical journals.

DSM Data/Math > You tho

Troxx
08-31-2022, 08:42 PM
https://c.tenor.com/X2zRv3xs3toAAAAd/time-to-nut-up-or-shut-up-get-ready.gif

Don’t copy and paste and old post. I challenge you to contribute something new! If done right you WILL use a parse program (grounded in math/logic) to not flood us all with 3 thousand line crap spam. Smarter weiners than you made them. They work excellently if you know where the break points are.

With shaman ass crap pet, knowledge of torpor and canni IV mechanics … I know PRECISELY how you will perform.

Remember… I have played a 60 shaman through the full scope of this game. I already know the answer. I have the epic and the same spells as you. My alts gear is inferior but for this marathon stress test I promise it won’t matter. It won’t fit your agenda I promise. You will be disappointed.

https://c.tenor.com/m6a_O0u4YnsAAAAC/disappointed.gif

Troxx
08-31-2022, 08:44 PM
We all know you won’t because:

https://c.tenor.com/-cMF0nihwrMAAAAC/pussy-annoyed.gif

Mages are not gods. Shamans are UNDENIABLY BETTER! We all know this. But in this specific case you have insisted shamans can dps like mages. We all know this to be bullshit with lightning blue lipstick! In this theoretical situation shamans add nothing profitable. Shamans ARE NOT equivalent or even same ball park dps. You will fall flat on your face even trying. Your “utility” is redundant and needless. Your pet is garbage.

Shaman (for once cause GOD DAMN we all agree they are always great) need not apply. Sorry Charlie. Burden is on you. I follow on with my very first post which is still 100% relevant and accurate.

From page fucking 3 of this dumpster fire:

Troxx
08-31-2022, 08:49 PM
Cleric and ench duo are already wickedly OP. Add a second ench for 2nd pet and backup cc and it’s that much easier. So yeah 3/4 are spoken for.

Remaining options:

-druid (lol no)

-wizard (lol even more no)

-shaman: gives you redundant slows you don’t need, heals you won’t need, buffs you won’t need, a pet that sucks and malo (value added). Dots will not add much as with 2 ench pets nothing is alive long. Malo is good but shamans don’t have a monopoly on this line. Shaman isn’t a terrible choice, but you’re bringing along a class that can’t contribute as much as other options

-mage: strong pet for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), malo (value added), mod rods (value added), coth (value added for both mobility and aggro wipe mechanics), pet haste masks (value added as pets are literally all your dps) … and when all else is covered and nothing else needed, nifty nuke burn potential.

-necro: decent pet choices for additional dps and backup tanking (value added), twitches (value added), additional cc (value added root and screaming), backup heals (probably not needed but value added), FD (value added and opens up some content), snare (meh but value added?), backup rez (value added) … and when all else is covered they can burn extra mana nuking stuff down or just twitching.


So yeah in this theoretical best of the best it’s either
-clr/ench/ench/mage if you don’t need a FD split
-clr/ench/ench/nec if FD split would be useful or at a tougher camp that may benefit from the expanded necro tool kit (but you lose malo)

Shaman are a top notch class but compared to mage or necro … relative dead weight only contributing redundant bs you don’t really need. A competent cleric can easily manage 2 charming enchanters cross covering cc … and healing a charm pet is so laughably easy you don’t need slow … and when you do enchanters can do that too last I checked.


I fully expect a literal tidal wave of dissenting responses from DSM but I call em like I see em.

My only regret I didn’t include a 3rd enchanter as an option. My mistake but it could be considered that the addition of mage malo, pet haste masks, mod rods and CoTH might make the mage a better 4th choice in a group that already has ludicrous dps.

To which I could argue a 4th as mage is better than a 3rd ench for the aforementioned reasons. How much dps does a group need? Even then I have provided parses of my mage and pet putting out more dps than a hasted ench pet. So maybe it’s a nothingburger side argument … that still excludes a shaman who’s utility isn’t needed

Troxx
08-31-2022, 09:00 PM
In B4 DSM submits single fights of him solo fighting level 40 seb frogs or partial/incomplete group parses of cherry picked fights.

Remember on my mage I can cherry pick fights north of 200dps. Give me enough fights and I can give you 20 averaged at 160dps+ but this is NOT a reflection of expectation.

At 60 with no pet focus my average is 100-120 dps in a typical group. As high as 120-140 in an ideal situation and as low as 80-100 in a bad one.

I know the limitations of my alt. I am willing to admit them up front

PS: most non raid geared melee will admit that an average dps over 80 is admirable

PPS: shamans are not a group dps class. They can put out impressive numbers for a multi class role. They are globally BETTER than most all classes. But this thread has a narrow focused question

Troxx
08-31-2022, 09:43 PM
I think he is just asleep but am optimistic he is trying.

DeathsSilkyMist
08-31-2022, 10:15 PM
Looks like nobody has posted any new data, only new trolling posts. Thank you to the trolls for keeping yourself well known:) This is too easy. Your post histories are now flooded with posts that show how poorly you respond to losing an argument.

For anybody who doesn't want to read the 140+ pages, you can safely discount all recent posts by Troxx, Cyxthryth, Karanis, PlsNoBan, Toxigen, and Ripqozko. They have long since lost the desire to have an actual conversation, and instead want to try and bury the conversation in troll posts so people can't see that their own data shows they are wrong.

This is the current state of the discussion, which has yet to be continued due to trolling and lack of evidence or pursuasive arugment:

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Here is Troxx's data for reference. It is using his own standards of being in a group for an extended period of time. He is doing... 79 DPS (without damage shield). It is the precise number I calculated. His DPS is 40 simply because he is nuking more per encounter, but math-wise this also means they aren't pulling mobs that fast. His previous encounter data shows an average kill speed of 36 seconds, and he has yet to provide average kill speed for this data set.

There are two ways you can interpret this data:

1. You can believe Troxx, who is claiming his DPS parser is undervaluing the data by 30%. If that is true, then honestly all of the data he has posted so far is meaningless because his parser is wrong, and he needs to get a better parser.

2. GamParse did it's job and parsed Troxx's DPS correctly. The reason why he thinks the data is undervalued by 30% is because his similarly equipped Monk can do 70 DPS when he isn't pulling. That is where he is getting the 30% number, 70 x 0.7 = 49. The flaw in Troxx's logic is the Monk is only losing 30% DPS because he is pulling, NOT because the parser is wrong. Troxx isn't pulling, he is just sitting in camp DPSing and parsing. He is not losing any DPS, so there is no 30% loss for him. He is basically falsely assuming that if the Monk loses 30% DPS, everybody else is losing 30% DPS too. The parser is correct, and Troxx is wrong.

Either way, he basically has nothing to back up his silly points. The burden of proof now lies on him to either provide better data, or prove his parser is undervaluing all DPS by 30%, and not just the Monk who is pulling lol.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 - Here is real objective data for DPS comparisons between a Mage and a Shaman, using a level 49 Sebilis Mob. A Shaman can do 55.2 DPS, a Mage can do 82.7 with damage shield. The difference is only 27.5 DPS. This is a level 60 Mage vs. a level 60 Shaman, no clickies or mana buffs, and assuming the group is killing a mob every 36 seconds.

Troxx
08-31-2022, 10:35 PM
Congrats on misinterpreting data?

Troxx
08-31-2022, 10:36 PM
I challenge you to put in the sweat equity. Join a fast moving high dps group. Play pure offense and show us the numbers you can manage fight after fight after fight. Aggregate or break separately all you want. I recommend using a parser. Do the thing you claim you can do.

https://c.tenor.com/qh-IYhG3C1IAAAAC/its-time-nut-up.gif

But I know you won’t. If you did, I already know what the numbers would show. Maybe you do too which is why you are unwilling.

Until you grow some balls (and preferably a few more brain cells to rub together), you have effectively conceded that you are wrong.

And since you’re wrong … back to amusing GIFs!

Troxx
08-31-2022, 10:39 PM
https://c.tenor.com/o8aL4fkhOwcAAAAC/starwarsday.gif

Nut up or shut up?!

Troxx
08-31-2022, 10:40 PM
DSM won’t

Viva la 300 pages!

Troxx
08-31-2022, 10:41 PM
Looks like nobody has posted any new data

Including you!

#tooScared
#Incapable!
#Impotent!
#FloppyWeiner???
#SAD

Troxx
08-31-2022, 10:44 PM
https://c.tenor.com/A-w7oBvNmMIAAAAC/appendices-appendice.gif

Troxx
08-31-2022, 10:47 PM
Prove us wrong with math, logic, and other autistic magic!

You are right and we are wrong?! Nut up so we can shut up!!!

Troxx
08-31-2022, 10:47 PM
Watch him .. not …..

Troxx
08-31-2022, 10:50 PM
https://c.tenor.com/A-w7oBvNmMIAAAAC/appendices-appendice.gif

PlsNoBan
08-31-2022, 11:28 PM
Maybe he's not autistic. Aren't autistic people good at math and numbers? He likes them a lot but is really really bad at them

Troxx
09-01-2022, 12:07 AM
Who knows …

Troxx
09-01-2022, 12:10 AM
Bigger question is that when/if I want to raid again will this affect my prospects?

Only Jesus knows…

Troxx
09-01-2022, 12:12 AM
#SorryVanquish

I’m a baller

I promise!

Raj
09-01-2022, 02:53 AM
huh?

TomisFeline
09-01-2022, 03:26 AM
more plz

Troxx
09-01-2022, 03:49 AM
https://c.tenor.com/Oq9I7BqtOSoAAAAC/shh-secret.gif

DSM is asleep.

Special kids need their rest.

Karanis
09-01-2022, 07:25 AM
18551

PlsNoBan
09-01-2022, 10:29 AM
https://i.imgur.com/bUgziVI.png

Maybe DSM finally decided to stop posting before he hit another embarrassing milestone

Troxx
09-01-2022, 11:09 AM
We can only hope.

eqravenprince
09-01-2022, 11:37 AM
Oh wow, this thread still going huh. All discussion theory aside, our Necro, Mage, Shaman, Enchanter is doing great. Even added a wizard to leech some exp along the way.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 11:55 AM
Reposting an overview of the discussion. This is the data given, so it is all we can use. It would be great if someone else posted some data.

I did get the damage shield calculation wrong, I was using a slowed mob after rechecking the video I was using for number of hits.

I also misread the DPS data. I should be using the scaled value, not the DPS value. All calculations I am doing below are using what his parser calls the "scaled" value. This is simply Total Damage Done / Total Kill Time = DPS.

I have no issue making corrections, as the only thing that matters is where the data leads.

============================Mage DPS===================================

This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt:

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

According to Troxx, his pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58.

Average pet DPS: (36 + 50 + 45 + 51 + 30 + 49 + 56 + 60 + 55) / 9 = 48 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick sitting and 12 mana per tick standing. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. Let's assume the Mage has Conjuration Specialization. This reduces the cost to 248. Since the Mage will most likely lose 1 meditation tick due to the 6 second cast time, the mana cost goes back up to 268, to account for the 20 mana lost from not meditating. This means you can cast Shock of Steel 80 times per hour, assuming that is the only thing you do.

Troxx's average casts per individual fight: (5 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 8) / 9 = 5. To pull this off, that means he is spending 1340 - 290 (9 med ticks + 1 standing tick) = 1050 mana per encounter. After 3 encounters he would be out of mana, so there is no way he can sustain the DPS numbers provided. This is why we use the average of 1 nuke per minute, as it is not realistic to be nuking at a high DPS consistently. 74.22 is also close to the overall encounter of 80 DPS, so there is no reason to doubt the individual sets vs. the whole set.

Average player DPS without clickies: (825 damage x 80 nukes) / 3600 seconds = 18.33 DPS.

Using a https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which is a level 49 Sebilis mob and similar to Crypt mobs, an unslowed mob did 74 hits in 144 seconds. (74 x 33) / 144 = 16.95 DPS

Average Damage Shield DPS: 16.95 DPS.

Average Total DPS without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 16.95 = 83.28 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 24.66 + 16.95 = 89.61 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 11.45 = 77.78 DPS
The Direct damage number is lower because you would realistically only be able to nuke once per minute due to mana, so ((825 * 0.5) / 36) = 11.45 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 16.66 + 16.95 = 81.61 DPS
The DPS is halved on this due to it being difficult to realistically get two 17 second casts off in 36 seconds.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 18.5 + 16.95 = 83.45 DPS

============================Shaman DPS===================================

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Shaman Torpor Mana Recovery Video.

Pet DPS is using a max level pet with Celerity (50% haste), Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Average pet DPS: 7321 damage over 414 seconds = 17.7 DPS

A Shaman with max Torpor and Clarity II is regenerating mana at rougly 16 mana per second. Let's assume this Shaman has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (16 x 3600) + 3000 = 60600.

Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt cost 745 mana total. This means you could cast this combination 81 a maximum of times per hour. You would not be using Conjuraton Specialization typically, so the number doesn't change.

Average player DPS without clickies (Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt): ((1648 + 1278) x 60) / 3600 seconds = 48.76 DPS.

Average Total DPS without clickies: 17.7 + 48.76 = 66.46 DPS

Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS

Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS

Average Total DPS with 2x Epic Click + 2x Bane of Nife (on 2 mobs): 17.7 + 68.3 = 86 DPS
I will not use this for the differences in DPS below, since everything else is single target DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS without clickies (2x Ice Strike): 17.7 + 37.5 = 55.2 DPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman Quick DPS video, logs are attached in description.

Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 29.22 = 46.92 DPS

Average Total DPS with 1x JBB and 1x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 35.25 = 52.95 DPS
This would be a bit more mana efficient than 2x Ice Strikes, could do more DPS if the mob takes longer to kill, and is the same cast time as 2x Ice Strikes.

============================Difference in DPS===================================

Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 83.28 DPS (Mage) - 66.46 DPS (Shaman) = 26.82 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 100.24 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 19.54 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 77.78 DPS (Mage) - 55.2 DPS (Shaman) = 22.58 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS

Difference is between 19.54 DPS and 30.5 DPS, depending on the setup of the Mage vs. the Shaman.

============================Conclusion============ =======================

The reason for this breakdown is because the debate is choosing between Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric or Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric for OP's question. The argument for Mage is DPS + Malo + Charm Break Safety.

A Shaman has both Charm Break Safety (Pet + Torpor) and a better Malo -> Malosini chance, due to Malo being better than Mala. When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 20-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. A Shaman's toolkit on the other hand has a much broader application, and will save your group time in other less quantifiable ways. I see very little reason to pick a Mage over a Shaman.

The other debate that spawned was whether to take a Shaman or not based on them being less useful at low levels. It is true Shamans don't come into their own until level 30 or so, but this is true for Enchanters and clerics too. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3499420&postcount=1273 This post shows a level 24 warrior out-DPSing a level 27 charmed pet with 37% haste and a Torch. Enchanter charm isn't as powerful as people think at lower levels, plus Enchanters have to deal with more meditating, lower mana pool, more fizzles, more interrupts, resists, etc. The 2x Enchanters in this group aren't going to be as good as melees with 2k worth of gear. The cleric is also going to bring fairly little to the table. This shouldn't deter you from bringing these classes, as they are well worth the wait once you get to level 30 or so. Luckily leveling from 1-30 is going to be super easy with any group of 4, so this shouldn't be a big consideration.

Finally, this debate is looking at all level ranges, from 1-60, including level 60 item farming. It is up to the user to decide whether they want to pick a Mage for slightly faster kill speeds from levels 1-60 and during level 60 farming, or pick a Shaman for their superior utility and safety. This is very useful when farming level 60 camps like Fungi King and Ixiblat Fer. Honestly a group of 4 casters is already going to level extremely quickly, so I do not believe the Mage is worth it. A slightly better leveling experience does not make up for a Mage bringing very little at the end. OP has already chosen his group (Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage), so it is actually a draw hehe. I personally would do Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric.

Oh wow, this thread still going huh. All discussion theory aside, our Necro, Mage, Shaman, Enchanter is doing great. Even added a wizard to leech some exp along the way.

Glad to hear it! Yeah sadly a lot of people have devolved into just RnF trolling. Wizard will be nice for the ports and nuking when the need calls for it.

Toxigen
09-01-2022, 11:59 AM
Quite the 500th post (in this thread alone).

Stern cringe.

Over 17% of his posts since 2014 have been in this thread alone.

hehehehe

Karanis
09-01-2022, 12:03 PM
18552

PlsNoBan
09-01-2022, 12:10 PM
https://i.imgur.com/Ujg9RMd.gif

Vexenu
09-01-2022, 12:22 PM
Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS

Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS


So by your own math, you are conceding that the Shaman can only hope to maintain at best half the sustained DPS of the Mage in a fast killing group? (i.e. one in which you can't get value from your DoTs and your best DPS comes from spamming JBB).

Are we finally done here?

PlsNoBan
09-01-2022, 12:43 PM
So by your own math, you are conceding that the Shaman can only hope to maintain at best half the sustained DPS of the Mage in a fast killing group? (i.e. one in which you can't get value from your DoTs and your best DPS comes from spamming JBB).

Are we finally done here?

inb4 some idiotic argument about how you misinterpreted his data and/or shaman utility means more than literally double dps in a group with multiple encs and a cleric already. His own data basically confirmed what the "trolls" have been telling him for over 100 pages now. Mage is MUCH more effective DPS than shaman in a fast pulling/killing group. This fact is as blatantly obvious as anything could be but he repeatedly denied it cause of "muh data" and now his own data says the same thing we've all been saying.

Can't wait to see how he tries to spin this one

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 12:50 PM
So by your own math, you are conceding that the Shaman can only hope to maintain at best half the sustained DPS of the Mage in a fast killing group? (i.e. one in which you can't get value from your DoTs and your best DPS comes from spamming JBB).

Are we finally done here?

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS. Please read hehe. Killspeed effects how many clickies you can use in a fight.

If you want to compare the 100 DPS clickie number, you would compare it to:

Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS

This is because the 100 DPS clickie number is assuming slower kill speeds. Slower kill speeds are why you can spam a 17 second clickie multiple times hehe. If you are killing a mob in roughly 30 seconds, you can only click the boots once. This is all in my last post, so please go over it more carefully if you want to ask questions or discuss it.

PlsNoBan
09-01-2022, 01:15 PM
Ahh we went the misinterpretation route. On a 30s fight you'd use clicky once then maybe 1 regular faster cast nuke. You don't have to stick to 1 method the whole time. Dots would still be useless on a fight that short and would be stuck doing JBB but you could mix and match boots of bladecalling with a shock of steel depending on how fast things are dying and get higher DPS than the strictly regular nuke DPS number.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 01:19 PM
Ahh we went the misinterpretation route. On a 30s fight you'd use clicky once then maybe 1 regular faster cast nuke. You don't have to stick to 1 method the whole time. Dots would still be useless on a fight that short and would be stuck doing JBB but you could mix and match boots of bladecalling with a shock of steel depending on how fast things are dying and get higher DPS than the strictly regular nuke DPS number.

It's not misinterpretation. He simply didn't read the whole thing and cherry picked two numbers.

You wouldn't want to mix mana nukes and boots of bladecalling. You would lose 4 ticks of meditate (80 mana) per 24 seconds (17 clickie cast + 6 second Shock of Steel cast). That means you are spending 328 mana per Shock of Steel essentially, while only getting back 110 from clarity 2 + 100 from meditate over 5 ticks. You would be out of mana after 30 mobs. This is assuming you can perfectly meditate between two mobs.

Shamans can mix and match spells/clickies due to Torpor. Shamans can also increase how much they nuke if you want to go down the route of draining mana for more DPS.

Vexenu
09-01-2022, 01:25 PM
As was established well-over 100 pages ago, your forumquest math is nonsensical and in no way correlates to how EQ is actually played.

Kich867
09-01-2022, 01:25 PM
It's not misinterpretation. He simply didn't read the whole thing and cherry picked two numbers.

You wouldn't want to mix mana nukes and boots of bladecalling. You would lose 4 ticks of meditate (80 mana) per 24 seconds (17 clickie cast + 6 second Shock of Steel cast). That means you are spending 328 mana per Shock of Steel essentially, while only getting back 110 from clarity 2 + 100 from meditate over 5 ticks. You would be out of mana after 30 mobs. This is assuming you can perfectly meditate between two mobs.

Shamans can do this due to Torpor.

Do you think it's realistic for that to matter? Most dungeons have 22+ minute spawn timers. In my experience, people mistakenly prioritize dungeons while leveling due to the ZEM but they ignore the fact that the monsters take so long to respawn they're not actually getting better xp.

In the overwhelming majority of dungeon groups I've participated in, if you're churning through mobs too quickly, you hit a dead zone of spawns.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 01:28 PM
Do you think it's realistic for that to matter? Most dungeons have 22+ minute spawn timers. In my experience, people mistakenly prioritize dungeons while leveling due to the ZEM but they ignore the fact that the monsters take so long to respawn they're not actually getting better xp.

In the overwhelming majority of dungeon groups I've participated in, if you're churning through mobs too quickly, you hit a dead zone of spawns.

I 100% agree. It is another reason why people are overestimating how important a Mage is. Realistically you are not clearing tons of mobs in a level 60 area. Both Shamans and Mages can increase their DPS by spending more mana if you are killing mobs at a slower rate (either kill speed or pull speed). Shamans can also root/rot if the area is easy enough to chain pull mobs that die in 30 seconds.

PlsNoBan
09-01-2022, 01:37 PM
Oh boy we're root rotting mobs in xp groups again

https://i.imgur.com/PQyi375.gif

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 01:44 PM
Oh boy we're root rotting mobs in xp groups again

You can't have it both ways:) You can't argue that a group wants to pick a Mage because of 30 DPS, but that same group would absolutely refuse to allow a Shaman to increase the group's overall DPS when fighting in an area like Sebilis or Velks, where it is easy and basically risk free for the Shaman to root/rot ahead of the party. That group doesn't care much about DPS if that is the case, so the argument for Mage also goes out the window.

Ripqozko
09-01-2022, 01:58 PM
We def hitting 200

Troxx
09-01-2022, 02:29 PM
Oh boy we're root rotting mobs in xp groups again

https://i.imgur.com/PQyi375.gif

Gloomlord
09-01-2022, 02:33 PM
You can't have it both ways:) You can't argue that a group wants to pick a Mage because of 30 DPS, but that same group would absolutely refuse to allow a Shaman to increase the group's overall DPS when fighting in an area like Sebilis or Velks, where it is easy and basically risk free for the Shaman to root/rot ahead of the party. That group doesn't care much about DPS if that is the case, so the argument for Mage also goes out the window.

If you have a group of two enchanters, and two charms destroying mobs, why the hell would they want a shaman off to the side root rotting instead of just increasing the speed of the grind against single mobs? They wouldn't...

You've already lost this argument more than a hundred pages ago. Even if you're a troll, you realise even the illusion of your "victory" is null and void, right?

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 02:40 PM
Quite the 500th post (in this thread alone).

Stern cringe.

Over 17% of his posts since 2014 have been in this thread alone.

hehehehe

You forgot to mention the combined 600+ posts from Troxx, PlsNoBan, Cyxthryth, Toxigen, Ripqozko, Gloomlord, etc. At least 500 of those are literally just insults and/or memes with absolutely nothing to do with the topic, bloating this thread like something in RnF. Mega yikes.

I'll take my post history any day thank you. Spreading out the trolling over 6+ people doesn't make it better:)

Toxigen
09-01-2022, 02:49 PM
We def hitting 200

sorry you dont got data, hope this helps

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 02:51 PM
sorry you dont got data, hope this helps

Gloomlord
09-01-2022, 03:01 PM
You forgot to mention the combined 600+ posts from Troxx, PlsNoBan, Cyxthryth, Toxigen, Ripqozko, Gloomlord, etc. At least 500 of those are literally just insults and/or memes, bloating this thread like something in RnF. Mega yikes.

I'll take my post history any day thank you. Spreading out the trolling over 6+ people doesn't make it better:)

Do you enjoy being a self-righteous hypocrite, DSM? I really want to know.

You've lost. Pack it in and leave.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 03:08 PM
Do you enjoy being a self-righteous hypocrite, DSM? I really want to know.

You've lost. Pack it in and leave.

You forgot to mention the combined 600+ posts from Troxx, PlsNoBan, Cyxthryth, Toxigen, Ripqozko, Gloomlord, etc. At least 500 of those are literally just insults and/or memes with absolutely nothing to do with the topic, bloating this thread like something in RnF. Mega yikes.

I'll take my post history any day thank you. Spreading out the trolling over 6+ people doesn't make it better:)

Thanks for proving my point:)

Gloomlord
09-01-2022, 03:10 PM
Did you not realise why I said that?

You're claiming moral superiority over the "trolls", yet even from an unbiased standpoint, it's clear you're getting immense enjoyment over frustrating people.

Why are you still here? Answer the question.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 03:15 PM
Did you not realise why I said that?

You're claiming moral superiority over the "trolls", yet even from an unbiased standpoint, it's clear you're getting immense enjoyment over frustrating people.

Why are you still here? Answer the question.

Honestly you have no proof of this. You can check the post history. I am simply defending myself and my argument from memes, insults, the argumentum ad populum fallacy, and the "my experience trumps data" nonsense. Don't blame me for the 500+ posts that are literally just insults and/or memes. Posts that you have contributed to btw. You can provide better evidence to support your claims or stop trolling at any time. Nobody is forcing you to post.

Gloomlord
09-01-2022, 03:19 PM
Why are you still here? You don't need to "defend yourself". I mean...we're all "lost causes", right?

Nobody is forcing you to post either, you lying hypocrite.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 03:23 PM
Why are you still here? You don't need to "defend yourself". I mean...we're all "lost causes", right?

Nobody is forcing you to post either, you lying hypocrite.

I am providing the correct information for other people reading. If you can disprove my argument, that would be fantastic. Everybody wins, including myself.

You aren't lost causes. You are simply caught in a trolling loop. It happens. I haven't blocked anybody here, nor am I holding any grudges.

Troxx
09-01-2022, 03:41 PM
There are no other people reading.

Ripqozko
09-01-2022, 03:51 PM
Imagine trying to win in a 23 year old elf sim forums

Gloomlord
09-01-2022, 04:07 PM
Except, by implication of the fact we're "trolls", we seem to be. You're contradicting yourself. And what do you mean "other people reading"? Even the one person giving you the small benefit of the doubt is hardly calling for us to "stop trolling".

Do you mean the silent observers browsing this thread? That's pretty presumptuous to think that they perceive you to be anything other than a childish troll.

It's checkmate. Now stop posting, you infantile attention seeker.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 04:14 PM
Except, by implication of the fact we're "trolls", we seem to be. You're contradicting yourself. And what do you mean "other people reading"? Even the one person giving you the small benefit of the doubt is hardly calling for us to "stop trolling".

Do you mean the silent observers browsing this thread? That's pretty presumptuous to think that they perceive you to be anything other than a childish troll.

It's checkmate. Now stop posting, you infantile attention seeker.

It's pretty obvious to anybody reading that 500+ posts containing nothing but memes and insults is trolling. I am calling it for what it is. Everybody invovled in posting those insults and memes have more than earned the title of troll for this thread. That is not how you win a debate against someone you disagree with.

Again, I hold no grudges. People sometimes get into trolling loops. I will gladly engage with you if you bring evidence and logic to counter my argument.

Gloomlord
09-01-2022, 04:18 PM
Then why bother to continue posting to us?!

You are so bad at lying, can't you see that?

"I hold no grudges"? You're trolling. You are a troll.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 04:20 PM
Then why bother to continue posting to us?!

You are so bad at lying, can't you see that?

"I hold no grudges"? You're trolling. You are a troll.

The only question is why are you still posting? If you don't want to be called a troll, stop trolling. Continue the conversation in a civil manner, or stop posting. You can break the trolling loop you are in at any time. I will gladly continue the conversation when you do.

Kich867
09-01-2022, 04:23 PM
Except, by implication of the fact we're "trolls", we seem to be. You're contradicting yourself. And what do you mean "other people reading"? Even the one person giving you the small benefit of the doubt is hardly calling for us to "stop trolling".

Do you mean the silent observers browsing this thread? That's pretty presumptuous to think that they perceive you to be anything other than a childish troll.

It's checkmate. Now stop posting, you infantile attention seeker.

Is that me? Idrc that the thread is going on or that people are shit talking, I do think its funny though that this dude's ramblings evokes such an enormous emotional response from this many people, he has to live rent free in a lot of heads.

That one dude was sitting here for like 16 hours spam refreshing so he could drop his weird copy-pasta after every single person's post. The best part about that though was, I actually went and read some of that thread he said he had backed this dude into a corner in, it was pretty fuckin cringe. The entire argument was an enormously flaccid floppy weiner of an argument.

FWIW I actually disagree with DSM though on the original topic, but more so because I think that the fourth person functionally doesn't matter. That person doesn't relevantly contribute to the groups kill speed, anything over a trio (or duo really) seems obnoxious since they would have to pull gargantuan weight for their presence to offset how much they just reduced the XP per kill, but gun to my head I'd probably argue for a druid because at least keeping enemies snared prevents them from running, they can root-rot as well if that's actually an argument, and they can teleport the group wherever they'd like to go, and evac in a worst case scenario.

So I would opt for whoever has the most value to that group outside of combat, that group will kill things too quickly for a fourth person's in-combat contribution to matter.

Gloomlord
09-01-2022, 04:25 PM
Because there's no reason for this thread to go on this long. That's why I'm posting. I want you to stop this childishness, and make way for better discussions.

We've already told you that root rotting is pointless, and doesn't help the two enchanters and cleric in this hypothetical situation. Might as well group with some necromancers and other shamans in that case.

We can't continue this conversation in a civil manner, when you are a distinctly childish attention seeking troll. Come off it!

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 04:27 PM
Is that me? Idrc that the thread is going on or that people are shit talking, I do think its funny though that this dude's ramblings evokes such an enormous emotional response from this many people, he has to live rent free in a lot of heads.

That one dude was sitting here for like 16 hours spam refreshing so he could drop his weird copy-pasta after every single person's post. The best part about that though was, I actually went and read some of that thread he said he had backed this dude into a corner in, it was pretty fuckin cringe. The entire argument was an enormously flaccid floppy weiner of an argument.

FWIW I actually disagree with DSM though on the original topic, but more so because I think that the fourth person functionally doesn't matter. That person doesn't relevantly contribute to the groups kill speed, anything over a trio (or duo really) seems obnoxious since they would have to pull gargantuan weight for their presence to offset how much they just reduced the XP per kill, but gun to my head I'd probably argue for a druid because at least keeping enemies snared prevents them from running, they can root-rot as well if that's actually an argument, and they can teleport the group wherever they'd like to go, and evac in a worst case scenario.

So I would opt for whoever has the most value to that group outside of combat, that group will kill things too quickly for a fourth person's in-combat contribution to matter.

Thanks for being a calm and rational poster. I have enjoyed all of your posts. I do agree with you, once you get to a four man group it doesn't matter as much. Duos or Trios are where class compositions matter a lot more. But OP asked for our opinions on a four man group, and we obliged.

Gloomlord
09-01-2022, 04:28 PM
Is that me? Idrc that the thread is going on or that people are shit talking, I do think its funny though that this dude's ramblings evokes such an enormous emotional response from this many people, he has to live rent free in a lot of heads.

That one dude was sitting here for like 16 hours spam refreshing so he could drop his weird copy-pasta after every single person's post. The best part about that though was, I actually went and read some of that thread he said he had backed this dude into a corner in, it was pretty fuckin cringe. The entire argument was an enormously flaccid floppy weiner of an argument.

FWIW I actually disagree with DSM though on the original topic, but more so because I think that the fourth person functionally doesn't matter. That person doesn't relevantly contribute to the groups kill speed, anything over a trio (or duo really) seems obnoxious since they would have to pull gargantuan weight for their presence to offset how much they just reduced the XP per kill, but gun to my head I'd probably argue for a druid because at least keeping enemies snared prevents them from running, they can root-rot as well if that's actually an argument, and they can teleport the group wherever they'd like to go, and evac in a worst case scenario.

So I would opt for whoever has the most value to that group outside of combat, that group will kill things too quickly for a fourth person's in-combat contribution to matter.

You see? That's what I meant with "small benefit of the doubt".

Maybe you think some people are going too far in their anger with him, but it's clear DSM has no idea what he's talking about.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-01-2022, 04:33 PM
You see? That's what I meant with "small benefit of the doubt".

Maybe you think some people are going too far in their anger with him, but it's clear DSM has no idea what he's talking about.

I could say the same thing about you, and we would be at an impasse. You are not some arbiter of the truth who gets to dismiss what other people are saying.

The difference is I have data to back up my posts, while you just keep posting in anger. You could back up your points with evidence or stop posting at any time.

Kich867
09-01-2022, 05:10 PM
Maybe you think some people are going too far in their anger with him, but it's clear DSM has no idea what he's talking about.

I certainly don't think that, but again that has more to do with apathy. I think it has more to do with the phenomenon of when people are told they're wrong regardless of whether they are they get very defensive and agitated.

You don't actually need this dude to say he's wrong, and the insistence on turning your wheels to get them to say so is dumb and fruitless.

Most importantly though, I give exactly zero shits if DSM knows what they're talking about or not. I cannot describe to you how easy it is to look at someone who you think is wrong, know for certain you are correct about something, and not engage that person. You don't need their validation and you don't need to assert how correct you are, especially over something as fucking stupid as this.

You might say, "Kich, that's exactly what DSM is doing" -- and that's true, but it very clearly comes from a different place.

I think you're all still responding because you're more bothered that DSM said you're wrong than he would be bothered by being wrong. I think, demonstrably, the dude just likes talking on forums and debating things. And so this is an unbalanced conversation that you all could've avoided had you seen DSM disagree with you and you just go: "Yeah no that's fuckin crazy" and then not respond to the thread anymore.

cyxthryth
09-01-2022, 05:57 PM
Is that me? Idrc that the thread is going on or that people are shit talking, I do think its funny though that this dude's ramblings evokes such an enormous emotional response from this many people, he has to live rent free in a lot of heads.

That one dude was sitting here for like 16 hours spam refreshing so he could drop his weird copy-pasta after every single person's post. The best part about that though was, I actually went and read some of that thread he said he had backed this dude into a corner in, it was pretty fuckin cringe. The entire argument was an enormously flaccid floppy weiner of an argument.

I simply was (and am) communicating similarly to DSM's posts & posting mannerisms. I can't help how others feel about it, and I apologize if you are (hypocritically) trying to discredit/embarrass/ridicule (whatever you are trying to do) me for posting that way, but not DSM hehe. :)

"Flaccid floppy weiner of an argument" lol? Nope. No "argument" here! :) I have merely stated facts and posed simple questions, and I can't help it if you have misunderstood my factual statements or are (intentionally or otherwise) misconstruing your true understanding of them.

I also simply can't help it if the facts I state and questions I pose backed your likely friend/guildy/alt DSM into a corner of silent concession (in two threads hehe :)). That thread is still available, and I am happy to engage in a civil discussion with you about what you believe I've stated in that thread was not factual hehe. :) Can you challenge the actual content of the posts in the thread? DSM couldn't - I present that previous thread as evidence (he called me silly & stopped replying hehe :)).

Kich867
09-01-2022, 06:29 PM
I am happy to engage in a civil discussion with you

What's everyone's boner with being civil all about? I'd be happy to engage with you in an uncivil discussion.

You were being fuckin dumb in that other thread and you never had much of an argument. Your facts were pointless because the entire conversation was unbelievably stupid between the both of you.

Being endlessly rustled by some nerd on the internet isn't healthy. You're (probably) an adult, get a grip on your life and your self esteem, this dude's validation isn't fuckin worth it pal.

You don't need it.

PlsNoBan
09-01-2022, 06:49 PM
Imagine thinking there's droves of silent readers of this dumpster fire thread and they're reading DSM's 500+ posts and going "Thank god someone is posting super useful and smart data so I can learn". That might be the funniest delusion DSM holds. It's almost funnier than saying warriors solo better than enchanters with a straight face and defending that retarded point for like a dozen pages of people saying it's ridiculous.

Gloomlord
09-01-2022, 06:52 PM
I certainly don't think that, but again that has more to do with apathy. I think it has more to do with the phenomenon of when people are told they're wrong regardless of whether they are they get very defensive and agitated.

You don't actually need this dude to say he's wrong, and the insistence on turning your wheels to get them to say so is dumb and fruitless.

Most importantly though, I give exactly zero shits if DSM knows what they're talking about or not. I cannot describe to you how easy it is to look at someone who you think is wrong, know for certain you are correct about something, and not engage that person. You don't need their validation and you don't need to assert how correct you are, especially over something as fucking stupid as this.

You might say, "Kich, that's exactly what DSM is doing" -- and that's true, but it very clearly comes from a different place.

I think you're all still responding because you're more bothered that DSM said you're wrong than he would be bothered by being wrong. I think, demonstrably, the dude just likes talking on forums and debating things. And so this is an unbalanced conversation that you all could've avoided had you seen DSM disagree with you and you just go: "Yeah no that's fuckin crazy" and then not respond to the thread anymore.

Impartiality is always partial.

If you truly think this is waste of oxygen, why are you even here yourself? If we're all childish and crazy somehow, just let us be. I refuse to listen to this hypocritical speech about how I need to be the bigger man here.

Yeah, I do want him to admit he's wrong. You may think that's pointless, but I want sanity to flourish here. That's not going to happen if we go "shucks, what are you gonna do?!" and let him go off thinking he's in the right.

cyxthryth
09-01-2022, 06:57 PM
What's everyone's boner with being civil all about? I'd be happy to engage with you in an uncivil discussion.


Why would you be happy to engage uncivilly, and why with me specifically? There are many posters you could do so with instead, and for some specific reason you chose to (I am still not clear what exactly? my best guesses are) discredit/embarrass/ridicule (or whatever you're trying to do) me, and particularly (seemingly) for simply stating facts and asking questions in a manner similar to that which DSM has done literally thousands more times than I have? Any particular reason? Is he your friend/guildy/alt or something hehe? :)

You were being fuckin dumb in that other thread and you never had much of an argument. Your facts were pointless because the entire conversation was unbelievably stupid between the both of you.

I was being dumb in that thread why exactly? Just because you say so?
I have already explained/stated factually to you that I did not ever have an "argument", so I am not sure what point you believe you are making by talking about "my argument" again hehe. :)

So would I be correct in stating that your posts are intended to convey that you believe that MY facts/posts (mine specifically) in that other thread were pointless (enough for you to point out here in this thread), yet other posts - such as the ones of DSM's that I was directly responding/replying to - were not? If that is not what you are trying to say, would you possibly be able to further explain/extrapolate what are you trying to say exactly, and shed light on why are you saying it specifically to me?


Being endlessly rustled by some nerd on the internet isn't healthy. You're (probably) an adult, get a grip on your life and your self esteem, this dude's validation isn't fuckin worth it pal.

You don't need it.

I do not know why your posts seem to indicate you believe that you have some knowledge of when other people have boners or get "rustled", but believing that - if you do belive it, as your posts would seem to indicate - does not make it true.

I am an adult and I have great self esteem. I do not know why your post seems to imply that you have some reason to believe otherwise hehe. :)

I do not care about what you believe is or is not valid or what you believe is worth validation, but as I have stated above, I am curious the reasoning for your choice to direct your posts toward me in this manner. :)

PlsNoBan
09-01-2022, 07:28 PM
let him go off thinking he's in the right.

On one hand I agree with you but I think we can safely conclude that there is no reasoning with this person. Whether he has actual mental illness of some kind or is just extremely stubborn and misinformed. I'm not sure it matters much either way. Nobody is getting through to him. You could write a 10 page essay with absolutely perfect data points and sources that proves the exact opposite of his claims and he'd find a way to double down on his wrong opinion and walk away acting like he's in the right. I think that's why many people have kinda devolved into memes and trolling because it's quite obvious no rational discussion can penetrate that smooth brain.

https://i.imgur.com/fC952Qh.jpg

Gloomlord
09-01-2022, 08:08 PM
On one hand I agree with you but I think we can safely conclude that there is no reasoning with this person. Whether he has actual mental illness of some kind or is just extremely stubborn and misinformed. I'm not sure it matters much either way. Nobody is getting through to him. You could write a 10 page essay with absolutely perfect data points and sources that proves the exact opposite of his claims and he'd find a way to double down on his wrong opinion and walk away acting like he's in the right. I think that's why many people have kinda devolved into memes and trolling because it's quite obvious no rational discussion can penetrate that smooth brain.

https://i.imgur.com/fC952Qh.jpg

It enrages me when someone goes off thinking they're in the right, I guess.

I suppose this issue isn't important enough to warrant such zeal, but I think this man has gotten under everyone's skin in such a way because of how stubbornly adamant he is in proving how shaman is the be all and end all of EverQuest.

PlsNoBan
09-01-2022, 08:45 PM
It enrages me when someone goes off thinking they're in the right, I guess.

I suppose this issue isn't important enough to warrant such zeal, but I think this man has gotten under everyone's skin in such a way because of how stubbornly adamant he is in proving how shaman is the be all and end all of EverQuest.

Trust me I hear ya. It bothers me too. I just don't think there's any end in sight. I'm just here for the luls now.

Karanis
09-02-2022, 06:32 PM
18577

DeathsSilkyMist
09-02-2022, 07:24 PM
The trolls are still here posting to each other? I guess they need to be consoled after losing so thoroughly.

Troxx, PlsNoBan, Cyxthryth, Toxigen, Ripqozko, Karanis, and Gloomlord have at least 500 posts combined that are literally just insults and/or memes with absolutely nothing to do with the topic. At least they are starting to admit they are trolling flat out. That is helpful. I wouldn't recommend listening to anything they have to say in this thread, it is not objective.

Reposting an overview of the discussion. This is the data given, so it is all we can use. It would be great if someone else posted some data.

============================Mage DPS===================================

This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt:

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

According to Troxx, his pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58.

Average pet DPS: (36 + 50 + 45 + 51 + 30 + 49 + 56 + 60 + 55) / 9 = 48 DPS.

A Mage with max Meditate and Clarity II is regenerating mana at 31 mana per tick sitting and 12 mana per tick standing. Let's assume this Mage has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (31 mana x 10 ticks per minute x 60 minutes) + 3000 = 21600.

Shock of Steel costs 275 mana. Let's assume the Mage has Conjuration Specialization. This reduces the cost to 248. Since the Mage will most likely lose 1 meditation tick due to the 6 second cast time, the mana cost goes back up to 268, to account for the 20 mana lost from not meditating. This means you can cast Shock of Steel 80 times per hour, assuming that is the only thing you do.

Troxx's average casts per individual fight: (5 + 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 4 + 6 + 4 + 8) / 9 = 5. To pull this off, that means he is spending 1340 - 290 (9 med ticks + 1 standing tick) = 1050 mana per encounter. After 3 encounters he would be out of mana, so there is no way he can sustain the DPS numbers provided. This is why we use the average of 1 nuke per minute, as it is not realistic to be nuking at a high DPS consistently. 74.22 is also close to the overall encounter of 80 DPS, so there is no reason to doubt the individual sets vs. the whole set.

Average player DPS without clickies: (825 damage x 80 nukes) / 3600 seconds = 18.33 DPS.

Using a https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which is a level 49 Sebilis mob and similar to Crypt mobs, an unslowed mob did 74 hits in 144 seconds. (74 x 33) / 144 = 16.95 DPS

Average Damage Shield DPS: 16.95 DPS.

Average Total DPS without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 16.95 = 83.28 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 35.29 + 16.95 = 100.24 DPS

Average Total DPS with https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 24.66 + 16.95 = 89.61 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies: 48 + 18.33 + 11.45 = 77.78 DPS
The Direct damage number is lower because you would realistically only be able to nuke once per minute due to mana, so ((825 * 0.5) / 36) = 11.45 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling : 48 + 16.66 + 16.95 = 81.61 DPS
The DPS is halved on this due to it being difficult to realistically get two 17 second casts off in 36 seconds.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds https://wiki.project1999.com/Burnt_Wood_Staff : 48 + 18.5 + 16.95 = 83.45 DPS

============================Shaman DPS===================================

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Shaman Torpor Mana Recovery Video.

Pet DPS is using a max level pet with Celerity (50% haste), Maniacal Strength, and Focus of Spirit.

Average pet DPS: 7321 damage over 414 seconds = 17.7 DPS

A Shaman with max Torpor and Clarity II is regenerating mana at rougly 16 mana per second. Let's assume this Shaman has 3000 Mana to start with.

Max mana per hour: (16 x 3600) + 3000 = 60600.

Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt cost 745 mana total. This means you could cast this combination 81 a maximum of times per hour. You would not be using Conjuraton Specialization typically, so the number doesn't change.

Average player DPS without clickies (Bane of Nife + Envenomed Bolt): ((1648 + 1278) x 60) / 3600 seconds = 48.76 DPS.

Average Total DPS without clickies: 17.7 + 48.76 = 66.46 DPS

Average Total DPS with JBB: 17.7 + 32.88 = 50.58 DPS

Average Total DPS with 1 Epic Click + 1x Pox + 2x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 63 = 80.7 DPS

Average Total DPS with 2x Epic Click + 2x Bane of Nife (on 2 mobs): 17.7 + 68.3 = 86 DPS
I will not use this for the differences in DPS below, since everything else is single target DPS.

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds without clickies (2x Ice Strike): 17.7 + 37.5 = 55.2 DPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman Quick DPS video, logs are attached in description.

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with JBB: 17.7 + 29.22 = 46.92 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds with 1x JBB and 1x Bane of Nife: 17.7 + 35.25 = 52.95 DPS
This would be a bit more mana efficient than 2x Ice Strikes, could do more DPS if the mob takes longer to kill, and is the same cast time as 2x Ice Strikes.

============================Difference in DPS===================================

Average Total DPS difference without clickies: 83.28 DPS (Mage) - 66.46 DPS (Shaman) = 26.82 DPS

Average Total DPS difference with best clickies: 100.24 DPS - 80.7 DPS = 19.54 DPS

The data below will show average DPS over the average 36 second kill speed of the group:

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference without clickies: 77.78 DPS (Mage) - 55.2 DPS (Shaman) = 22.58 DPS

Average Total DPS in 36 seconds difference with best clickies: 83.45 DPS - 52.95 DPS = 30.5 DPS

Difference is between 19.54 DPS and 30.5 DPS, depending on the setup of the Mage vs. the Shaman, and killspeed.

============================Conclusion============ =======================

The reason for this breakdown is because the debate is choosing between Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric or Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric for OP's question. The argument for Mage is DPS + Malo + Charm Break Safety.

A Shaman has both Charm Break Safety (Pet + Torpor) and a better Malo -> Malosini chance, due to Malo being better than Mala. When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 20-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. A Shaman's toolkit on the other hand has a much broader application, and will save your group time in other less quantifiable ways. I see very little reason to pick a Mage over a Shaman.

The other debate that spawned was whether to take a Shaman or not based on them being less useful at low levels. It is true Shamans don't come into their own until level 30 or so, but this is true for Enchanters and clerics too. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3499420&postcount=1273 This post shows a level 24 warrior out-DPSing a level 27 charmed pet with 37% haste and a Torch. Enchanter charm isn't as powerful as people think at lower levels, plus Enchanters have to deal with more meditating, lower mana pool, more fizzles, more interrupts, resists, etc. The 2x Enchanters in this group aren't going to be as good as melees with 2k worth of gear. The cleric is also going to bring fairly little to the table. This shouldn't deter you from bringing these classes, as they are well worth the wait once you get to level 30 or so. Luckily leveling from 1-30 is going to be super easy with any group of 4, so this shouldn't be a big consideration.

Finally, this debate is looking at all level ranges, from 1-60, including level 60 item farming. It is up to the user to decide whether they want to pick a Mage for slightly faster kill speeds from levels 1-60 and during level 60 farming, or pick a Shaman for their superior utility and safety. This is very useful when farming level 60 camps like Fungi King and Ixiblat Fer. Honestly a group of 4 casters is already going to level extremely quickly, so I do not believe the Mage is worth it. A slightly better leveling experience does not make up for a Mage bringing very little at the end. OP has already chosen his group (Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Mage), so it is actually a draw hehe. I personally would do Shaman/Enchanter/Necro/Cleric.

Gloomlord
09-02-2022, 07:28 PM
just shut the fuck up already jesus christ

PlsNoBan
09-02-2022, 08:03 PM
Here's a real (shorter) overview for people with brains that work correctly: Mages are unquestionably a better choice in 99% of cases for a DPS class in a group setting if shaman heals/utility isn't vital. Enchanters lvl 12+ solo better than warriors without major twinking. A parse of a twinked warrior outdpsing a charmed pet means nothing and the parse itself is questionable at best. Without fungi the warrior has a fair bit of inevitable downtime and a well played enchanter has minimal. A point that has been brought up 5 or 6 times and repeatedly been ignored/dismissed in favor of posting more badly done parses. Even with major twinking somewhere around 30-40 they're still going to wipe the floor with warrior solo ability. OP picked a non min/max group comp and their choice (while totally fine) does not have any bearing on what the best setup is. If OP picked 4 rangers it doesn't magically make it the right answer. DSM's logic is extremely flawed and tends to be biased in favor of whatever argument he's trying to make at the time. Likely has a mental disorder of some kind. Actually believes there's a huge audience of silent readers of this thread that are learning valuable information from his over 500 posts in this thread while he mocks 7 other posters for having 500 combined.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-02-2022, 08:11 PM
Here's a real (shorter) overview for people with brains that work correctly: Mages are unquestionably a better choice in 99% of cases for a DPS class in a group setting if shaman heals/utility isn't vital. Enchanters lvl 12+ solo better than warriors without major twinking. A parse of a twinked warrior outdpsing a charmed pet means nothing and the parse itself is questionable at best. Without fungi the warrior has a fair bit of inevitable downtime and a well played enchanter has minimal. A point that has been brought up 5 or 6 times and repeatedly been ignored/dismissed in favor of posting more badly done parses. Even with major twinking somewhere around 30-40 they're still going to wipe the floor with warrior solo ability. OP picked a non min/max group comp and their choice (while totally fine) does not have any bearing on what the best setup is. If OP picked 4 rangers it doesn't magically make it the right answer. DSM's logic is extremely flawed and tends to be biased in favor of whatever argument he's trying to make at the time. Likely has a mental disorder of some kind. Actually believes there's a huge audience of silent readers of this thread that are learning valuable information from his over 500 posts in this thread while he mocks 7 other posters for having 500 combined.

No evidence to support any of these claims in the entire thread. Lot's of trolling though, which you have admitted to. Sorry you think "I am right and you are wrong" is a valid argument.

Gloomlord
09-02-2022, 08:11 PM
I mean, I don't care what kind of "data" he provides. Common sense dictates that, with two hasted charms and a Cleric, Shaman DPS and healing is completely irrelevant. DoTs will be completely mana inefficient, and Shaman nukes have mediocre at best mana/damage coefficients . Torpor is also completely outdone by Complete Heal, so their healing is completely meaningless.

Why is he completely ignoring this fact over and over again?

PlsNoBan
09-02-2022, 08:12 PM
I mean, I don't care what kind of "data" he provides. Common sense dictates that, with two hasted charms and a Cleric, Shaman DPS and healing is completely irrelevant. DoTs will be completely mana inefficient, and Shaman nukes have mediocre at best mana/damage coefficients . Torpor is also completely outdone by Complete Heal, so their healing is completely meaningless.

Why is he completely ignoring this fact over and over again?

Because mental illness. Get ready for a wall of text of useless data.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-02-2022, 08:28 PM
I mean, I don't care what kind of "data" he provides. Common sense dictates that, with two hasted charms and a Cleric, Shaman DPS and healing is completely irrelevant. DoTs will be completely mana inefficient, and Shaman nukes have mediocre at best mana/damage coefficients . Torpor is also completely outdone by Complete Heal, so their healing is completely meaningless.

Why is he completely ignoring this fact over and over again?

I am not ignoring these facts. You are simply too blinded by your bias against me to read my posts properly, or think objectively.

I'll give you a simple example. The reason why Torpor is advantageous (even with a cleric) is because having two healers means two people can get healed at the same time. In a caster group, you don't really need to CH your party members. When a character only has 2000HP, Torpor is actually more efficient. CH is 5.7 HP per mana, and Torpor is 6 HP per mana. If a charm break occurs and the Enchanter loses half their life, the Shaman can Torpor the Enchanter while the Cleric is CHing the other pet. Since casters aren't attacking with melee anyway, the melee slow is irrelevant.

I have already shown you the DPS data, and the mana data is also easy to calculate. You don't just get to say "you are wrong" and get away with it. If you think my math or data is flawed, you need to explain why and provide evidence.

I do agree with you, the DPS of the fourth player is largely irrelevant in a group with two Enchanter pets and a Cleric. I said so earlier in the thread. But if that is the case... then Mage DPS is also largely irrelevant. You don't get to claim Mage DPS is better just because it is Mage DPS. If you don't need 50 DPS, you probably don't need 80 DPS either. If you take DPS off the table, Shamans win in the Charm Safety and Malo department. So there doesn't seem to be a reason to pick Mage, unless you need CoTH.

Gloomlord
09-02-2022, 08:40 PM
The CH is healing the pets...

What the hell are you talking about?! The other casters just get a more quick pop up heal. Why is Torpor a factor here, exactly? If the two enchanters and cleric is on point, healing the charm break isn't much of a factor where Torpor would be considered. All three classes have stuns.

How is shaman DPS a factor over a really good pet that you only need to press a button to unleash hell upon? There is no mana to regen, so over time it's going to be more efficient than anything the shaman can pump out.

Are you factoring shaman DPS in relation to a scenario completely unrelated to two enchanters obliterating mobs one by one? If so, your data is completely irrelevant.

Your maths mean nothing when you completely ignore this factor.

cyxthryth
09-02-2022, 08:40 PM
I am not ignoring these facts.

Hehe. :)

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.

as the data shows.


You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.


How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.


No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

DeathsSilkyMist
09-02-2022, 08:45 PM
The CH is healing the pets...

What the hell are you talking about?! The other casters just get a more quick pop up heal. Why is Torpor a factor here, exactly? If the two enchanters and cleric is on point, healing the charm break isn't much of a factor where Torpor would be considered. All three classes have stuns.

How is shaman DPS a factor over a really good pet that you only need to press a button to unleash hell upon? There is no mana to regen, so over time it's going to be more efficient than anything the shaman can pump out.

Are you factoring shaman DPS in relation to a scenario completely unrelated to two enchanters obliterating mobs one by one? If so, your data is completely irrelevant.

Your maths mean nothing when you completely ignore this factor.

... I said the CH is for healing the pets. This is why I keep saying you don't read my posts. You obviously didn't read my post lol.

I have already shown you the DPS data. The difference is 20-30 DPS between a Mage and a Shaman. If you think this is wrong, you need to provide better data.

If a group doesn't care about 50 DPS, they don't care about 80 DPS. This is really simple. DPS is DPS. A Mage's DPS is not special or unique.

cyxthryth
09-02-2022, 08:47 PM
you need to provide better data

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.

as the data shows


You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.


How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.


No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

Gloomlord
09-02-2022, 08:48 PM
I did read your post. You said: "You don't need really need CH for your party members".

No shit, CSM. Why was that point relevant to anything? A shaman with torpor doesn't mean anything, regardless.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-02-2022, 08:49 PM
I did read your post. You said: "You don't need really need CH for your party members".

No shit, CSM. Why was that point relevant to anything? A shaman with torpor doesn't mean anything, regardless.

It's really simple. CH takes 10 seconds to cast. If the Cleric is in the process of healing a pet, they cannot stun, or heal another character:) The Shaman can heal the Enchanter who took 1000 damage while the Cleric is stunning or CHing. That adds extra safety to the group that the Mage cannot provide.

And as you say, if the group is satisfied with the Enchanter DPS, you wouldn't care about the Mage's DPS.

cyxthryth
09-02-2022, 08:53 PM
It's really simple.

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.

as the data shows


You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.


How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.


No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

Gloomlord
09-02-2022, 08:55 PM
Yeah, it's not like the two other enchanters don't have stun or anything...

The 4th member, which isn't an enchanter, is just there to provide safe and reliable DPS, which mage provides more of than shaman. There's already enough CC and healing with the two other classes.

We're going around in circles, you lunatic. Do you not see you've already lost?

DeathsSilkyMist
09-02-2022, 08:56 PM
Yeah, it's not like the two other enchanters don't have stun or anything...

The 4th member, which isn't an enchanter, is just there to provide safe and reliable DPS, which mage provides more of than shaman. There's already enough CC and healing with the two other classes.

We're going around in circles, you lunatic. Do you not see you've already lost?

You already admitted the DPS of the fourth character is largely irrelevant. Unless you want to walk that back, you have already disproven the need for a Mage's DPS with your own logic.

cyxthryth
09-02-2022, 08:58 PM
You already admitted the DPS of the fourth character is largely irrelevant. Unless you want to walk that back, you have already disproven the need for a Mage's DPS.

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.

as the data shows


You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.


How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.


No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

Gloomlord
09-02-2022, 09:00 PM
I said the utility the shaman brings is irrelevant. Why would the DPS the 4th class brings be irrelevant?

You've lost the argument, DSM. Swallow your pride and admit defeat.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-02-2022, 09:04 PM
Shaman DPS and healing is completely irrelevant.

The difference in Mage DPS and Shaman DPS is 20-30. If 50 DPS is irrelevant, 80 DPS is irrelevant. DPS isn't somehow unique between classes. If a Mage is dealing 50 DPS and a Shaman is dealing 50 DPS, the DPS is still 50.

cyxthryth
09-02-2022, 09:09 PM
irrelevant Shaman

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.

as the data shows


You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.


How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.


No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

Gloomlord
09-02-2022, 09:11 PM
Did this DPS take into account the speed at which two charm pets are doing DPS?

The potential DPS of a shaman means nothing if the mob dies before the DoT has a chance to finish. The mage's pet doesn't need to care about this. The mage doesn't need to care about cannibalise, nor healing himself, to upkeep this DPS either.

cyxthryth
09-02-2022, 09:13 PM
Did this DPS take into account the speed at which two charm pets are doing DPS?

DSM has provided zero evidence of his Shaman DPSing in a high level fast-paced killing DPS group in this thread. (I submit the posts in this thread as evidence.)

The potential DPS of a shaman means nothing if the mob dies before the DoT has a chance to finish. The mage's pet doesn't need to care about this. The mage doesn't need to care about cannibalise, nor healing himself, to upkeep this DPS either.

Correct. These facts (among many others that have seemingly been completely ignored or [intentionally or otherwise] misinterpreted or misconstrued) have been stated to DSM multiple times by multiple posters hehe. :)

Gloomlord
09-02-2022, 09:16 PM
Correct. These facts (among many others that have seemingly been completely ignored or [intentionally or otherwise] misinterpreted or misconstrued) have been stated to DSM multiple times by multiple posters hehe. :)

Then I think it's time to admit defeat.

DeathsSilkyMist
09-02-2022, 09:26 PM
Did this DPS take into account the speed at which two charm pets are doing DPS?

The potential DPS of a shaman means nothing if the mob dies before the DoT has a chance to finish. The mage's pet doesn't need to care about this. The mage doesn't need to care about cannibalise, nor healing himself, to upkeep this DPS either.

Yes, I have already taken this into account if you read my overview of the discussion I posted earlier.

Gloomlord
09-02-2022, 09:32 PM
If you're telling the truth, then mage is still more DPS. So...?

Yeah, I think...

https://c.tenor.com/Ll7MJPm2QvAAAAAC/time-to.gif

cyxthryth
09-02-2022, 09:33 PM
you stopped replying (like a little bitch)

Yes, I have

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.

as the data shows


You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.


How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.


No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

DeathsSilkyMist
09-02-2022, 09:36 PM
When looking at DPS, you can see that you will only lose 20-30 DPS when picking a Shaman over a Mage. Using Troxx's Data, you can see that two charmed level 47 mobs with a Torch and Haste would do 86x2 = 172 DPS. This means you are looking at a difference between 255 DPS and 225 DPS. When killing a mob with 8000 HP, the difference would be 31 seconds vs. 36 seconds. The Mage is only saving 5 seconds per kill, and offers very little else. A Shaman's toolkit on the other hand has a much broader application, and will save your group time in other less quantifiable ways. I see very little reason to pick a Mage over a Shaman.

cyxthryth
09-02-2022, 09:38 PM
you stopped replying (like a little bitch)

Yes, I have

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.

as the data shows


You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.


How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.


No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

Gloomlord
09-02-2022, 09:41 PM
Then you completely left out the upkeep shaman needs to do compared to mage, and how the utility and healing he provides won't make up for nor outdo the mage's extra DPS.

We've been over this time and time again.

https://c.tenor.com/Ll7MJPm2QvAAAAAC/time-to.gif

DeathsSilkyMist
09-02-2022, 09:44 PM
Then you completely left out the upkeep shaman needs to do compared to mage, and how the utility and healing he provides won't make up for nor outdo the mage's extra DPS.

We've been over this time and time again.

https://c.tenor.com/Ll7MJPm2QvAAAAAC/time-to.gif

I didn't, you simply keep refusing to read my posts lol.

Gloomlord
09-02-2022, 09:44 PM
Yes, you keep telling yourself that bullshit...

DeathsSilkyMist
09-02-2022, 09:47 PM
Yes, you keep telling yourself that bullshit...

The information is there, it isn't hiding. You factually haven't read it. This is why you keep arguing, you don't even know what my points are.

cyxthryth
09-02-2022, 09:51 PM
The information is there, it isn't hiding.

Correct hehe. :)

you stopped replying (like a little bitch)

Yes, I have

All I can do is re-state the facts in continued effort to attempt to continue the discussion(s) in a civil manner. The ball is in DSM's court.

as the data shows


You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.


How's it going in that corner you've been backed into?


I am maintaining civility in this discussion, and my position is founded on hard evidence. The only insults I throw are thrown in defense.


No, you have not maintained civility in this discussion.

I have maintained civility in my posts to you - in which I have ONLY stated facts and asked questions - and despite my civility you have (repeatedly) called me a troll, called me silly, accused me of doing/posting things I have not done/posted, and meanwhile have continued to ignore my simple questions and avoided responding to the many facts I've stated. I present both of our posts - from this thread and elsewhere - as evidence of my civility, and you have provided no counterevidence despite me requesting you provide it (multiple times).

Why do you opt out of partaking in a civil discussion with me, and meanwhile claim that you are maintaining civility in this discussion (yet choose to continue to call me names for [seemingly] no reason)?


Why do you feel the need to "defend yourself" from any of the facts I have stated or questions I have asked?

Gloomlord
09-02-2022, 09:55 PM
Hark at the pot, much?

You keep arguing because you're too childish and cowardly to admit defeat.

Better nukes + really good pet + little upkeep + satisfactory MR debuff = better 4th member.

It's over, DSM. We have the intellectual high ground.