Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/W5EYcLh.jpg



Autistic players probably have less issues being hyper focused on mashing buttons in the proper sequence sitting at their desk for 18 hrs straight than regular players. Maybe this is why DSM is confused at the concept of mental fatigue and not being able to play 100% perfectly all day long without losing focus and doesn't understand that playing a shaman to the level he's talking about requires significantly more focus and attention than hitting 1-2 buttons and sitting as a mage.

All jokes aside having autism kinda seems like having video game superpowers and I'm a little jealous

This wasn't even a good troll post. Bad and uninspired. Try harder next time please.

[PlsNoBan]

This wasn't even a good troll post. Bad and uninspired. Try harder next time please.

Wasn't even trolling I honestly believe there's something to it. I have some gamer friends on the spectrum and they're able to focus much more intensely for longer periods than I am. They also tend to be better at games than I am as a byproduct. You seem to legitimately not understand how people would struggle to play perfectly optimally for very long grind sessions. You also don't seem to acknowledge that shaman takes a lot more effort to play well than mage does. That's something autistic folks probably don't struggle with and wouldn't understand.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wasn't even trolling I honestly believe there's something to it. I have some gamer friends on the spectrum and they're able to focus much more intensely for longer periods than I am. They also tend to be better at games than I am as a byproduct. You seem to legitimately not understand how people would struggle to play perfectly optimally for very long grind sessions. You also don't seem to acknowledge that shaman takes a lot more effort to play well than mage does. That's something autistic folks probably don't struggle with and wouldn't understand.

I understand people have different levels of focus. The simple truth is you are overestimating the amount of work a Shaman has to do. It is how you are trying to lower a Shaman's DPS capabilities without actually providing real data.

Not to mention you are completely forgetting about the two Enchanters lol. They are putting in a lot of work keeping the pets charmed, the group safe, and providing the vast majority of the DPS. The Mage is the only person in the group who is basically sitting around doing nothing, adding little value.

If the people you are playing with have focus issues as you claim, you probably wouldn't have 2x Enchanters in your group to begin with. At that point your group isn't worrying about efficiency. They are simply trying to play the class they could use the best. That isn't what this thread is about. OP is not asking which combination would work best assuming you have lower focus levels, time, ability, etc.

[Crede]

Nah. Don't confuse 25 year old elf sim with modern competitive online games.

EQ is a game of doing the same thing over and over and over again in the proper order.

Bruh did you see the kael racer video? Someone researched for months to notice a milliseconds difference to try and prove someone cheated, and they ended up changing the rules for the aow/statue encounter after that. The examples they provided was more in depth than most people's college capstone projects .

[Karanis]

It's sad that you did, because the example is horribly wrong. It is such an obvious strawman that it just makes you and Vexenu look silly:)

It's a good thing though. It shows everybody that you don't understand math problems, because you think a real life situation such as a runner running towards a specific location is the exact same thing as a video game where the math never changes, the rules are fixed, and it is a much simpler world. You are also expending a lot less energy as a whole.

Running long distances is much harder and more complex than playing a video game for a few hours lol.

When you can't win with evidence, you got back to trolling.

18485

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes Karanis, physically running for days at sprint speed is not the same thing as playing a video game in your house for a few hours.

It is unfortunate basic ideas confuse you.

[Karanis]

Guys, spamming canni 4 and torpor almost nonstop for hours can cause some mental and physical fatigue for your average player.

DSM: YOU THINK SPRINTING FOR DAYS IRL IS EASIER AND THE EXACT SAME THING AS PLAYING VIDEO GAMES?!? LOL

Sure bud, sure. That's exactly what we were saying.

18486

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/P1QkPzRUtBAAAAAC/throwing-up.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Guys, spamming canni 4 and torpor almost nonstop for hours can cause some mental and physical fatigue for your average player.

DSM: YOU THINK SPRINTING FOR DAYS IRL IS EASIER AND THE EXACT SAME THING AS PLAYING VIDEO GAMES?!? LOL

Sure bud, sure. That's exactly what we were saying.

18486

Lol you really need to learn how to read. I guess you don't know the context for my post you quoted.

This needs to be settled with an actual demonstration where DSM tries to keep up with Mage DPS for a couple hours straight. It will quickly become apparent that he is wildly overestimating his ability to sustain respectable DPS for more than a few minutes at a time, despite what his "math" says.

Example of DSM math:

DSM: Did you know that Usain Bolt can run 100 meters in approximately ten seconds?
Non-autist: Cool.
DSM: By my calculations that means Usain Bolt can run from New York to Los Angeles in just 5.2 days.
Non-autist: No man, that's not how that works.
DSM: Clearly you just don't understand math.

Vexenu is trying to compare running at sprint speed for 5 days to playing a video game with simple rules for a few hours.

The comparison is nonsensical. I never made an argument like this. Playing a video game for a few hours at an efficient level is not even in the same league as running from Los Angeles to New York. If you don't understand the difference, you are simply a fool.

Sorry you don't understand basic math or logic.

[Troxx]

No he’s’ not. He is making fun of your broken logic. Did you miss the not-so-hidden analogy?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No he’s’ not. He is making fun of your broken logic. Did you miss the not-so-hidden analogy?

No, you are simply too stupid to understand it's a bad comparison:)

His insult only works if the math problems were comparable. They are not.

My logic is fine, and it isn't difficult to play Everquest efficiently.

[Karanis]

Oh I saw Vexenu's post, was pretty spot-on and hilarious.

You've already proven yourself one of the biggest fools on these forums, especially if you think Vex was being 1:1 100% literal with that comparison. Your density rivals lead or gold, holy shit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh I saw Vexenu's post, was pretty spot-on and hilarious.

You've already proven yourself one of the biggest fools on these forums, especially if you think Vex was being 1:1 100% literal with that comparison. Your density rivals lead or gold, holy shit.

Yet another person who doesn't understand math if you think it's a 1:1 comparison.

Lol you believe Everquest is more difficult than running from Los Angeles to New York at sprint speed. You are a fool.

[Crede]

This is always going to make this type of debate unending because utility doesn't have a set value and doesn't show up on a convenient log parser. Different folks value it differently. I've had that argument before in game with couple of friends who had a monk and shaman duo. After a friendly competition we were all slightly surprised to see the wife and I (sk/shaman) had more kills over a 5 hour period than they did because they died a couple times and we did not. Even that could've gone the other way. At the end of the game EQ's a fairly loosely-tuned game and offers different ways of achieving success. That success *is* a finite end point: There reaches a point in any player's career where there is no more loot he cares about, where platinum no longer matters. Nearly any group discussed in this thread could reach such a point and in truth there won't be THAT much difference in how long it takes them to get there given equal effort.


This was awesome to hear. Sk/Shaman is probably my favorite duo. I've seen Monk/Shaman wipe on something like gwurms because the monk could not pull aggro from the shaman while the shaman was trying to slow & torpor himself. You would not have this issue with a SK. It is unfortunate that they are not more liked here. But it's not surprising, because monks can put out more dps, despite the sk having more utility. Monks can also mitigate better, but after hitting that necessary utility(FD/tank), it's all about DPS. The remaining safety utility the SK offers(snare, multiple FDs, insta aggro, etc) is just less important to most people.

[Karanis]

I think I found the issue guys, DSM literally can't read.

If anyone thinks that, it's you, clearly. You proved my point about you being dense as fuck with 1 post, nicely done.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think I found the issue guys, DSM literally can't read.

If anyone thinks that, it's you, clearly.

Lol someone doesn't understand a joke:)

Sorry you honestly think Vexenu's post made any sense.

In Everquest terms, his example would be like someone saying "It's easy to fight Avatar of War with your bare fists as a Mage, solo."

It's basically an impossible scenario that cannot happen.

I am surprised you believe people cannot Torpor/Cannibalize at a fairly efficient rate. It's really easy to do, and most Torpor Shamans are already doing it. It is far from impossible, so I don't know how you think the comparison works at all.

[Crede]

That's where most people probably differ in this thread.

From my years of experience a bit of extra DPS isn't worth the extra risk. Most mobs have pretty low HP in this game, so kill speeds are generally fine unless you are purposely trying to make the slowest group comp you possibly could.

Even one group wipe destroys the DPS advantage of a Mage vs. a Shaman. At best you are set back 10-30 minutes (if you are lucky), at worst your group disbands hehe.

Adding 30 DPS to a group with 2x Enchanter pets is going to give you a lot less benefit than the extra utility and safety a Shaman has to offer. Never wiping is a good way to out-perform a high DPS group that is wiping.

I think you slightly overvalue utility. That very well may be your experience, but I think on average most people want to level/kill as fast as possible and they will likely take more dps with a small chance of dying over more utility with almost no chance of dying. This is because this game isn't that hard, most of us have put in the hours to master it by now, and people just want to be efficient with their time. Having potentially wasted utility is not efficient. Having more dps is always efficient if you can avoid death, which generally you can. CRs also are relatively pretty easy on this server. Almost everybody has access to a rogue/necro/sk to help retrieve their corpse or if not people are usually pretty friendly and willing to help out.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think you slightly overvalue utility. That very well may be your experience, but I think on average most people want to level/kill as fast as possible and they will likely take more dps with a small chance of dying over more utility with almost no chance of dying. This is because this game isn't that hard, most of us have put in the hours to master it by now, and people just want to be efficient with their time. Having potentially wasted utility is not efficient. Having more dps is always efficient if you can avoid death, which generally you can. CRs also are relatively pretty easy on this server. Almost everybody has access to a rogue/necro/sk to help retrieve their corpse.

And I think you overvalue DPS:) The game isn't hard, and mobs die fast, even with sub-optimal groups.

The most efficient thing you can do is not die, and mistakes happen, especially when people are semi-afk watching netflix.

If you have 2x Enchanters with Charmed pets, a Mage really isn't doing much. If you really cared about more DPS and think you can survive at all costs, you would run 3x Enchanters and a Cleric for better DPS. You also wouldn't watch Netflix hehe. Either way a Mage loses out.

[Toxigen]

Bruh did you see the kael racer video? Someone researched for months to notice a milliseconds difference to try and prove someone cheated, and they ended up changing the rules for the aow/statue encounter after that. The examples they provided was more in depth than most people's college capstone projects .

lol i did...that was rnf gold

i guess racing / cothing is a milliseconds thing...you got me there

POPOPOPOPOPOPOPOP

[Zuranthium]

Mage provides survivability, by having a pet to tank in case both Charm pets break at the same time, and Malosini to make the Charms more reliable. It's the highest DPS option for the group while maintaining stability. Not hard to understand.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mage provides survivability, by having a pet to tank in case both Charm pets break at the same time, and Malosini to make the Charms more reliable. It's the highest DPS option for the group while maintaining stability. Not hard to understand.

Shamans also provide survivability, but way better. The DPS of a Mage is unnecessary with 2x Enchanter pets. If you want a bit of extra DPS, the Shaman can provide.

EDIT: Sorry, I shouldn't taunt. Thanks for the civil post this time.

[Toxigen]

53 pages.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

53 pages.

You're here sperging every step of the way:)

[Toxigen]

You're here sperging every step of the way:)

https://i.imgur.com/xXqeip0.png

yikes

[Ripqozko]

He will literally reply to anything over and over again, thats his MO.

[Zuranthium]

Shamans also provide survivability, but way better.

"Way better" survivability isn't needed. There's already a Cleric there, sitting around on their ass waiting for something to do besides occasionally C-heal the OP Charm pet.

Mage provides sufficient stability and more gains. If you're lucky I will use my superior wealth to buy a SoW potion from you. I'll even let you smell my hand while giving you the gold, so you can cherish the scent of greatness before returning to the slowbro life.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

"Way better" survivability isn't needed. There's already a Cleric there, sitting around on their ass waiting for something to do besides occasionally C-heal the OP Charm pet.

Mage provides sufficient stability and more gains. If you're lucky I will use my superior wealth to buy a SoW potion from you. I'll even let you smell my hand while giving you the gold, so you can cherish the scent of greatness before returning to the slowbro life.

I am sorry Mage DPS isn't great. It gets overshadowed by Enchanter DPS. A Shaman offers the better and more consistent ability to do camps. The exception is for the few camps that need CoTH.

One group wipe will undo any small gains you get from the difference in Mage DPS vs. Shaman DPS.

If you want to take the "but we never wipe, we play perfect" route, then bring 3x Enchanters instead, because that is just better DPS:)

[PlsNoBan]

https://i.imgur.com/xXqeip0.png

yikes

Holy fucking shit. I thought I posted way too much. How many times a day you think DSM refreshes this thread looking for another post so he can reply saying the same retarded shit that everyone knows is dumb/wrong for the millionth time? Literally every time I open this forum he's online. I haven't seen him offline once.

Edit: Inb4 some variation of "you have no data something something insults" reply

[Troxx]

I wanna say about a dozen of my posts were Shaq GIFs.

Fun times!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The sad part is 100+ posts combined from Troxx, PlsNoBan, Z, etc. are literally just RnF troll posts.

[Karanis]

Even if that were true, you still dwarf them, DOUBLING that amount, oof.

[Gloomlord]

Guys? Can we stop using "autism" as an insult here?

Yes, DeathsSilkyMist is an obvious troll, or childishly stubborn. Why do we have to bring autism and Asperger's Syndrome into this?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Guys? Can we stop using "autism" as an insult here?

Yes, DeathsSilkyMist is an obvious troll, or childishly stubborn. Why do we have to bring autism and Asperger's Syndrome into this?

I am not the troll here. The only trolls are the people using insults and memes when they can't get their way in a discussion. That is the stubborn childishness you speak of. They are the one's who started using autism as an insult too:) Don't blame me for their silliness.

Danth and myself are the only people on the post list who didn't devolve into trolling. Props to Crede for becoming civil again near the end of the discussion.

Troxx got mad because his own data shows his Mage isn't as good as he thought.

Karanis and PlsNoBan are basically trolling the entire time lol.

Zuranthium has a chip on his shoulder against me for some reason, so he likes to come in to threads and be contrarian from time to time. At least he became civil in his last post or two.

Toxigen likes to troll threads too, it's pretty common.

[Troxx]

Guys? Can we stop using "autism" as an insult here?

Yes, DeathsSilkyMist is an obvious troll, or childishly stubborn. Why do we have to bring autism and Asperger's Syndrome into this?

I’ll be honest his post style, rigid inflexible thinking, hyper-acute focus on arguments at hand, inability to employ abstract reasoning when confronted with opposing view points …. etc all very much smell like autism spectrum. My little brother is on spectrum so I grew up with it. Now that I’m all grown up I take care of patients on spectrum on a near daily basis and facilitate their diagnostic evaluations and direct/manage their care plans.

So yeah, any time you saw me hint at it … it wasn’t a slur. I was being fairly serious.

Is he autistic? I don’t know the guy … but habits on forum are suspicious.

[Toxigen]

Anyone playing p99 is at least a little autistic.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’ll be honest his post style, rigid inflexible thinking, hyper-acute focus on arguments at hand, inability to employ abstract reasoning when confronted with opposing view points …. etc all very much smell like autism spectrum. My little brother is on spectrum so I grew up with it. Now that I’m all grown up I take care of patients on spectrum on a near daily basis and facilitate their diagnostic evaluations and direct/manage their care plans.

So yeah, any time you saw me hint at it … it wasn’t a slur. I was being fairly serious.

Is he autistic? I don’t know the guy … but habits on forum are suspicious.

Troxx thinks he is a doctor who can diagnose medical conditions over the internet with just text messages to go off of. How silly:)

The only autism here is throwing a tantrum and posting silly gifs when you lose an argument.

Video games are built on rules and math. It's really not difficult to find answers to questions like what a classes average DPS is. But plenty of people in this thread are willing to tie themselves into knots trying to use faulty logic to get out of mathematical realities, because they like a certain class and don't want said realities to be true.

[Troxx]

Anyone playing p99 is at least a little autistic.

Probably true.

[PlsNoBan]

I am not the troll here. The only trolls are the people using insults and memes when they can't get their way in a discussion. That is the stubborn childishness you speak of. They are the one's who started using autism as an insult too:) Don't blame me for their silliness.

Danth and myself are the only people on the post list who didn't devolve into trolling. Props to Crede for becoming civil again near the end of the discussion.

Troxx got mad because his own data shows his Mage isn't as good as he thought.

Karanis and PlsNoBan are basically trolling the entire time lol.

Zuranthium has a chip on his shoulder against me for some reason, so he likes to come in to threads and be contrarian from time to time. At least he became civil in his last post or two.

Toxigen likes to troll threads too, it's pretty common.

I've made a couple troll posts here but mostly just pointing out how dumb everything you say is. Literally nobody agrees with you. Couple people agreed on 1 or 2 points you made or said you were like half right about shaman utility being more important than extra mage dps which is a matter of opinion so I won't argue too much on that. But pretty much everyone knows you're more wrong than right and it's hilarious how rigid you are on your bad takes. You continuing to reply 200+ times saying the same dumb shit over and over is just fueling the fire and practically begging to be trolled.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I've made a couple troll posts here but mostly just pointing out how dumb everything you say is. Literally nobody agrees with you. Couple people agreed on 1 or 2 points you made or said you were like half right about shaman utility being more important than extra mage dps. But pretty much everyone knows you're more wrong than right and it's hilarious how rigid you are on your bad takes. You continuing to reply 200+ times saying the same dumb shit over and over is just fueling the fire and practically begging to be trolled.

"Pointing out how dumb everything you say is" is trolling:) You aren't using evidence and logic to make an argument, you just keep saying "you are dumb, therefore you are wrong".

If you were taking the conversation seriously, you would bring evidence and logic, or not post at all. Just look at the post history. You look like a troll lol.

People really don't understand that truth does not require people to agree with the person speaking it. Something can be true, and everybody can try and believe it isn't true.

[Troxx]

Troxx thinks he is a doctor who can diagnose medical conditions over the internet with just text messages to go off of. How silly.

We’ll I am actually a physician. I don’t diagnose anyone with anything over the internet but your forum behavior, especially when confronted with anything that challenges your established opinions about the universe, is pretty atypical.

I don’t know if you’re actually on spectrum and frankly don’t care.

[PlsNoBan]

"Pointing out how dumb everything you say is" is trolling:)

If you were taking the conversation seriously, you would bring evidence and logic, or not post at all. Just look at the post history. You look like a troll lol.

It's not my fault everything you're saying is dumb. I don't possess a 60 mage to give you your precious data you can stroke yourself to. I just know this game well enough to know you're spewing nonsense.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We’ll I am actually a physician. I don’t diagnose anyone with anything over the internet but your forum behavior, especially when confronted with anything that challenges your established opinions about the universe, is pretty atypical.

I don’t know if you’re actually on spectrum and frankly don’t care.

If you don't care, then don't bring it up:) Physicians can't diagnose anything based on simple text conversations over the internet, so I don't know why you even brought it up.

It is not my opinion computer programs like video games are built on math and rules. That is factual reality, and doesn't change.

It's not my fault everything you're saying is dumb. I don't possess a 60 mage to give you your precious data you can stroke yourself to. I just know this game well enough to know you're spewing nonsense.

"Everything you say is dumb". See? I can do it too. That doesn't mean I won the argument, or provided anything of value to this discussion.

[PlsNoBan]

"Everything you say is dumb". See? I can do it too. That doesn't mean I won the argument, or provided anything of value to this discussion.

The problem is you seem to believe if you do enough math on spell cost and damage you can "win" the argument. As like 5+ people have already told you now there's more to the story than your precious data. Things don't always work out that way. Most of us have thousands of hours invested in this game and tons of experience with both classes and have first hand knowledge of how both classes perform in a variety of situations in the real (norrath) world. We all instinctively know what class is better for what situation without doing a single equation about it. You can keep doing all the math you want but it won't make you correct. You're hyper focusing (autism) on the wrong thing here and you're literally unable to see it any other way.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The problem is you seem to believe if you do enough math on spell cost and damage you can "win" the argument. As like 5+ people have already told you now there's more to the story than your precious data. Things don't always work out that way. Most of us have thousands of hours invested in this game and tons of experience with both classes and have first hand knowledge of how both classes perform in a variety of situations in the real (norrath) world. We all instinctively know what class is better for what situation without doing a single equation about it. You can keep doing all the math you want but it won't make you correct. You're hyper focusing (autism) on the wrong thing here and you're literally unable to see it any other way.

The math is in the "real Norrath world". You assume your experience proves everything I say wrong. The biggest problem with this assumption is you may not have learned enough, even in those thousands of hours playing. Not all hours of experience are created equal. Instinct is also not always correct.

Your experience won't change the average DPS of a level 60 water pet, or how many times you can nuke per hour. That is fixed math that will never change. The only way you can nuke more often is if you are getting twitched, or you improve your max mana. That has a limit too. Games are built on a set of rules, and you cannot change them unless you cheat.

Here is a very simple example of something that looks like a "real experience". We will assume no resists occur. The Mage is currently sitting at 2000 mana due to spending some mana in previous fights.

Let's say a Mage nukes a single boss mob 5 times and the boss mob dies in 1 minute. Not resists occurred. For that fight, the Mage's DPS is (825 x 5) / 60 = 69 + 56 from the pet + 15 from DS for a total of 140 DPS. In the next two fights, the Mage only needs to nuke the mob once because the mob is a trash mob, and it dies in 30 seconds. The Mages DPS is 56 + 7 (half of DS since the fight was shorter) + (825 / 30) = 90 DPS for those two fights. However, the Mage is now oom, so they cannot nuke for the next two fights, which would take a bit longer without the extra DPS. Their pet is doing 56, and their DS is probably around 9, so that is 65 DPS for the next two fights.

A total of 5 fights occured, so 140 + 90 + 90 + 65 + 65 / 5 = 90 DPS, which is basically the average I calculated for a Mage who is using Shock of Steel instead of a clickie (88 was the number). Realistically the number would fluctuate a bit, depending on resists and how lucky you get with pet DPS, but you can see that the average still plays out, even in a "real" situation where you have multiple DPS values.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/bI9mkW8aUzYAAAAC/here-we-go-again.gif

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WyF8RHM1OCg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://c.tenor.com/bI9mkW8aUzYAAAAC/here-we-go-again.gif

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WyF8RHM1OCg

You are really childish for a supposed doctor lol. Taking after your patients?

[PlsNoBan]

The math is in the "real Norrath world". You assume your experience proves everything I say wrong. The biggest problem with this assumption is you may not have learned enough, even in those thousands of hours playing. Not all hours of experience are created equal. Instinct is also not always correct.

Your experience won't change the average DPS of a level 60 water pet, or how many times you can nuke per hour. That is fixed math that will never change. The only way you can nuke more often is if you are getting twitched, or you improve your max mana. That has a limit too. Games are built on a set of rules, and you cannot change them unless you cheat.

Here is a very simple example of something that looks like a "real experience". We will assume no resists occur. The Mage is currently sitting at 2000 mana due to spending some mana in previous fights.

Let's say a Mage nukes a single boss mob 5 times and the boss mob dies in 1 minute. Not resists occurred. For that fight, the Mage's DPS is (825 x 5) / 60 = 69 + 56 from the pet + 15 from DS for a total of 140 DPS. In the next two fights, the Mage only needs to nuke the mob once because the mob is a trash mob, and it dies in 30 seconds. The Mages DPS is 56 + 7 (half of DS since the fight was shorter) + (825 / 30) = 90 DPS for those two fights. However, the Mage is now oom, so they cannot nuke for the next two fights, which would take a bit longer without the extra DPS. Their pet is doing 56, and their DS is probably around 9, so that is 65 DPS for the next two fights.

A total of 5 fights occured, so 140 + 90 + 90 + 65 + 65 / 5 = 90 DPS, which is basically the average I calculated for a Mage who is using Shock of Steel instead of a clickie (88 was the number). Realistically the number would fluctuate a bit, depending on resists and how lucky you get with pet DPS, but you can see that the average still plays out, even in a "real" situation where you have multiple DPS values.

https://i.imgur.com/uNloDZV.gif

You're hyper focusing (autism) on the wrong thing here and you're literally unable to see it any other way.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

People really don't understand basic math hehe. The math still works, even after posting gifs.

[PlsNoBan]

Example of DSM math:

DSM: Did you know that Usain Bolt can run 100 meters in approximately ten seconds?
Non-autist: Cool.
DSM: By my calculations that means Usain Bolt can run from New York to Los Angeles in just 5.2 days.
Non-autist: No man, that's not how that works.
DSM: Clearly you just don't understand math.

[Gloomlord]

I am not the troll here. The only trolls are the people using insults and memes when they can't get their way in a discussion. That is the stubborn childishness you speak of. They are the one's who started using autism as an insult too:) Don't blame me for their silliness.

Danth and myself are the only people on the post list who didn't devolve into trolling. Props to Crede for becoming civil again near the end of the discussion.

Troxx got mad because his own data shows his Mage isn't as good as he thought.

Karanis and PlsNoBan are basically trolling the entire time lol.

Zuranthium has a chip on his shoulder against me for some reason, so he likes to come in to threads and be contrarian from time to time. At least he became civil in his last post or two.

Toxigen likes to troll threads too, it's pretty common.

I disagree with how they're talking with you, but they're right. Mage does bring more to the table here, for a fraction of the effort.

I also agree with them in that other thread that mage is not underpowered. Undoubtedly they're a very boring class if you want to apply skill, but they're not underpowered.

However, you decided to pointlessly drag another thread in this demonisation of the magician class that it really doesn't deserve.

I'm not going to call you autistic, but this is a ridiculous obsession to me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I disagree with how they're talking with you, but they're right. Mage does bring more to the table here, for a fraction of the effort.

I also agree with them in that other thread that mage is not underpowered. Undoubtedly they're a very boring class if you want to apply skill, but they're not underpowered.

However, you decided to pointlessly drag another thread in this demonisation of the magician class that it really doesn't deserve.

I'm not going to call you autistic, but this is a ridiculous obsession to me.

Please provide counter evidence, otherwise you are just saying "I am right and you are wrong". That is not a valid argument.

As I have always said, underpowered does not equal bad. There are no bad classes in Everquest. Mages are fine, I enjoy them myself. But that doesn't change the simple fact that their DPS isn't great at level 60. They are a bottom-heavy class that really shines at lower levels. It is a great first character when you have no gear and need a class that can level up and make money.

And PlsNoBan continues to use a terrible straw man meme that just further proves his lack of math and reasoning skills:)

[PlsNoBan]

Please provide counter evidence, otherwise you are just saying "I am right and you are wrong". That is not a valid argument.

Yeah Gloomlord u idiot. Please post more data and math or you have no idea what you're talking about.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah Gloomlord u idiot. Please post more data and math or you have no idea what you're talking about.

If you just say "I am right, and you are wrong", or "you are stupid", you are not contributing anything meaningful:)

I am sorry you continue wasting your time here.

[PlsNoBan]

How's this for math:

Mage > Shaman
DSM = Autist

Hope this helps

[Troxx]

Example of DSM math:

DSM: Did you know that Usain Bolt can run 100 meters in approximately ten seconds?
Non-autist: Cool.
DSM: By my calculations that means Usain Bolt can run from New York to Los Angeles in just 5.2 days.
Non-autist: No man, that's not how that works.
DSM: Clearly you just don't understand math.

https://c.tenor.com/_1RYz9914jQAAAAM/thats-it-right-there.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Continuing to use that terrible straw man only makes you look bad. Please keep using it lol.

It means you believe Shamans cannot Cannibalize and Torpor, it is just as impossible as running at full speed for 5 days. What a silly argument.

The only way that terrible straw man would work is if you could show my math was impossible. You can't, so it is not a valid comparison. You don't need to be a math major to do these calculations yourself and figure out they are not impossible, or even unreasonable.

[Troxx]

The fact that you still miss the underlying sentiment and are interpreting the comment 100% literally …

Concrete thinker much?

https://www.healthline.com/health/concrete-thinking#takeaway

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The fact that you still miss the underlying sentiment and are interpreting the comment 100% literally …

No, you are just showing how poorly you interpreted it to begin with, which is why you continue to use it lol.

His point is he is claiming my math is impossible. Just because someone can sprint for 100 seconds, it doesn't mean they can sprint for 5 days. It's really not a hard analogy to understand lol.

The analogy would work if I was saying something like "You can kill AoW solo if you could kite him around indefinitely". This would be impossible in practice, even if you could theoretically math it out.

If you believe that is what I am doing, you are just bad at math and basic logic.

[Gloomlord]

Please provide counter evidence, otherwise you are just saying "I am right and you are wrong". That is not a valid argument.

As I have always said, underpowered does not equal bad. There are no bad classes in Everquest. Mages are fine, I enjoy them myself. But that doesn't change the simple fact that their DPS isn't great at level 60. They are a bottom-heavy class that really shines at lower levels. It is a great first character when you have no gear and need a class that can level up and make money.

And PlsNoBan continues to use a terrible straw man meme that just further proves his lack of math and reasoning skills:)

Thing is: mages are neither underpowered, nor are they bad. They provide excellent DPS with almost no gear requirement in groups, are very good at soloing and dungeon crawling, and provide invaluable utility for a raid for reasons which should be obvious to everyone.

And we don't need to number crunch to figure out here that mage completely outdoes shaman at the DPS role in this hypothetical situation. Shaman is completely redundant when coupled with two enchanters and a cleric. Mage brings a powerful pet and powerful nukes when they are needed.

I concur with the previous posters with the notion that this isn't rocket science to figure out.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thing is: mages are neither underpowered, nor are they bad. They provide excellent DPS with almost no gear requirement in groups, are very good at soloing and dungeon crawling, and provide invaluable utility for a raid for reasons which should be obvious to everyone.

And we don't need to number crunch to figure out here that mage completely outdoes shaman at the DPS role in this hypothetical situation. Shaman is completely redundant when coupled with two enchanters and a cleric. Mage brings a powerful pet and powerful nukes when they are needed.

I concur with the previous posters with the notion that this isn't rocket science to figure out.

Just because you don't want to number crunch, doesn't mean the facts aren't there.

The difference in DPS between a Shaman and a Mage isn't vast, but a Shaman offers more utility if you don't need CoTH. It's really that simple. In a group with 2x Enchanter pets, the extra 30ish DPS advantage of a mage isn't going to be giving you much. If you want more DPS, bring another Enchanter.

[Gloomlord]

Why exactly do we need to number crunch when we all possess the intelligence here to figure out that the mage pet alone is constantly pumping out more damage over 2 hours than even the best shaman can muster?

Shaman is completely irrelevant when you have a cleric and two enchanters. A mage is just very good reliable DPS that doesn't require attention, and the ability to nuke when needed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why exactly do we need to number crunch when we all possess the intelligence here to figure out that the mage pet alone is constantly pumping out more damage over 2 hours than even the best shaman can muster?

Shaman is completely irrelevant when you have a cleric and two enchanters. A mage is just very good reliable DPS that doesn't require attention, and the ability to nuke when needed.

It's really simple. It's very possible your experience is wrong. There are plenty of people in the world who do something for thousands of hours and don't end up learning much about the thing they spend thousands of hours on.

Besides, if that is the standard, I could just say "My experience says you are wrong", and we are back to square one.

Evidence will prove the truth, and we no longer need to rely on a he-said-she-said argument, which goes nowhere typically.

If you want more DPS, run 3x Enchanters and a Cleric. If you say "That's too risky due to charm breaks", then you admit you prefer safety over DPS lol. That means a Shaman will fill the safety role better, and the DPS loss between a Shaman and Mage isn't huge. It is a much better "in the middle" scenario.

[Gloomlord]

Best doesn't necessarily mean the most DPS.

Thing is: shaman is both worse DPS and worse group composition here. The healing and charm recovery is covered by the cleric, so what does shaman possibly bring to the table?

In this case, wouldn't the high safe DPS and nuking bring more to this group than the redundancy that is shaman?

And the people in the thread have covered why this is. It's time to admit checkmate here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Best doesn't necessarily mean the most DPS.

Thing is: shaman is both worse DPS and worse group composition here. The healing and charm recovery is covered by the cleric, so what does shaman possibly bring to the table?

In this case, wouldn't the high safe DPS and nuking bring more to this group than the redundancy that is shaman?

And the people in the thread have covered why this is. It's time to admit checkmate here.

If you need more DPS, bring an Enchanter. They will blow the Mage out of the water in that department.

If you need more safety, bring a Shaman. They will blow the Mage out of the water in that department.

If you want something in the middle, a Shaman offers more on average than a Mage. The DPS gap between the two is not large, and Shamans simply have a much broader toolkit.

The reason why redundancy is good is because spell casters can only cast 1 spell at a time. Having a Shaman means you can have him Slow instead of the Enchanters. You can have two people getting healed at once instead of just one person at a time, etc. That is not a trivial advantage hehe, and can even help with your DPS because you can cast more spells in the same time period.

If your Shaman is healing, your Cleric can cast https://wiki.project1999.com/Reckoning which is basically the same DPS as Shock of Steel. It isn't like having two healers adds nothing to the group DPS wise.

[Danth]

Going back to the discussion a few pages ago about how most players like offense: The actual group the original poster asked for did take a shaman--but in place of a cleric. Then they went with enchanter/necromancer/necromancer, dual necros mostly because they really like the combination of damage with a pause button. Notice what they didn't pick? The shaman actually did win here, and because of its multi-role nature, though for a somewhat different reason than the main course of discussion has debated.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Going back to the discussion a few pages ago about how most players like offense: The actual group the original poster asked for did take a shaman--but in place of a cleric. Then they went with enchanter/necromancer/necromancer, dual necros mostly because they really like the combination of damage with a pause button. Notice what they didn't pick? The shaman actually did win here, and because of its multi-role nature, though for a somewhat different reason than the main course of discussion has debated.

Danth

Great point.

[PlsNoBan]

The fact that you still miss the underlying sentiment and are interpreting the comment 100% literally …

Concrete thinker much?

https://www.healthline.com/health/concrete-thinking#takeaway

It's like a textbook case lol. I know autism is a meme on these forums but there is 100% some legitimate cases floating around.

[Troxx]

Yeah I wonder if he’ll even read the article linked. My guess is not.

Anyways, everything important that needed to be said was was in the first 5 pages. Page 19 I provided and some individual break down a few pages later

Everything else is just absolute insanity/hilarity/garbage … but this is true of any thread DSM gets emotionally invested in. It’s actually kinda sad (albeit funny)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah I wonder if he’ll even read the article linked. My guess is not.

Anyways, everything important that needed to be said was was in the first 5 pages. Page 19 I provided and some individual break down a few pages later

Everything else is just absolute insanity/hilarity/garbage … but this is true of any thread DSM gets emotionally invested in. It’s actually kinda sad (albeit funny)

You continue to post silly nonsense since you can't provide evidence for your claims.

The evidence you did provide shows your Mage DPS lower than what you thought, both sets of parses lol. The other Mage who posted data was also showing pet DPS around 45-50.

Please come back with better data if you think your own data isn't good enough.

As Danth pointed out, Mage lost to Shaman in terms of what OP picked.

[Gloomlord]

If you need more DPS, bring an Enchanter. They will blow the Mage out of the water in that department.

If you need more safety, bring a Shaman. They will blow the Mage out of the water in that department.

If you want something in the middle, a Shaman offers more on average than a Mage. The DPS gap between the two is not large, and Shamans simply have a much broader toolkit.

The reason why redundancy is good is because spell casters can only cast 1 spell at a time. Having a Shaman means you can have him Slow instead of the Enchanters. You can have two people getting healed at once instead of just one person at a time, etc. That is not a trivial advantage hehe, and can even help with your DPS because you can cast more spells in the same time period.

If your Shaman is healing, your Cleric can cast https://wiki.project1999.com/Reckoning which is basically the same DPS as Shock of Steel. It isn't like having two healers adds nothing to the group DPS wise.

The point is that the more charms you have active, the more liable it is to blow up in your face. We all know this.

So the hypothetical 4th pick is not to increase the safety of the number of charms, which may be only one if the 2nd enchanter is dropping a charm to help with charm breaks, but to increase the efficiency of this group at grinding exp without hiccups.

In which case, the shaman provides absolutely nothing over the mage if we're trying to balance not only DPS, but safety and realism in this scenario.

Why can't you just admit that instead of stubbornly trying to overrate shaman and underrate mage? You're now seriously suggesting that the cleric animation with the shaman healing is more advantageous than the mage constantly throwing his pet in with the cleric healing both it and the charms?

I think you're a troll. I refuse to believe you can't see the logic in this.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The point is that the more charms you have active, the more liable it is to blow up in your face. We all know this.

So the hypothetical 4th pick is not to increase the safety of the number of charms, which may be only one if the 2nd enchanter is dropping a charm to help with charm breaks, but to increase the efficiency of this group at grinding exp without hiccups.

In which case, the shaman provides absolutely nothing over the mage if we're trying to balance not only DPS, but safety and realism in this scenario.

Why can't you just admit that instead of stubbornly trying to overrate shaman and underrate mage? You're now seriously suggesting that the cleric animation with the shaman healing is more advantageous than the mage constantly throwing his pet in with the cleric healing both it and the charms?

I think you're a troll. I refuse to believe you can't see the logic in this.

The 4th pick is indeed to increase safety. If you could handle 3x Enchanter pets, you would do that for the better DPS. Otherwise you are too afraid of the risk, which means you want to increase safety at the cost of DPS. The logic is quite simple. You are indeed correct people want a more consistent experience. That is what safety provides:) More safety = less hiccups.

I am not trolling, you just keep saying "I am right and you are wrong", and think that is some kind of valid argument. Please provide evidence to support your claims. I have provided plenty of evidence.

My point about the Cleric was simply that if the Shaman is sharing the healing burden, the Cleric can DPS more. This means the DPS gap between a Mage and a Shaman shrinks further, because the Shaman is enabling the Cleric to increase their DPS. Remember a Shaman can recover mana much faster, so it is better for the Shaman to heal any time a Cleric doesn't have to, it increases efficiency.

[Gloomlord]

The 4th pick is to get a class that balances out the group without gambling a wipe. You could argue a 3rd enchanter is more DPS with an extra charm, and if you stay lucky, that's correct.

So if we're arguing which is the better class to add here if you don't want to include a 3rd enchanter, why on earth is it shaman over mage? It doesn't make any sense. I think even a druid would bring more to this group than a shaman, if you're really throwing healing into the equation.

You are definitely trolling if you think I'm merely saying "I am right and you are wrong" here. People have already provided the maths in this thread, which you denied. We have access to the wiki, which tells us the abilities of each class.

What "evidence"? I call your bluff. Everyone has every reason here to be angry with you and your bizarre behaviour.

[Troxx]

I fully expect a literal tidal wave of dissenting responses from DSM but I call em like I see em.

From page 3, post 30.

How clairvoyant was I?

https://c.tenor.com/IoIn9W74-lcAAAAC/youre-a-wizard-hagrid.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The 4th pick is to get a class that balances out the group without gambling a wipe. You could argue a 3rd enchanter is more DPS with an extra charm, and if you stay lucky, that's correct.

So if we're arguing which is the better class to add here if you don't want to include a 3rd enchanter, why on earth is it shaman over mage? It doesn't make any sense. I think even a druid would bring more to this group than a shaman, if you're really throwing healing into the equation.

You are definitely trolling if you think I'm merely saying "I am right and you are wrong" here. People have already provided the maths in this thread, which you denied. We have access to the wiki, which tells us the abilities of each class.

What "evidence"? I call your bluff. Everyone has every reason here to be angry with you and your bizarre behaviour.

If you think a Druid would bring more than a Shaman, you have lost the debate. Unless you are in an area where the Druid can Charm, you gain very little from adding the Druid. Even the people who disagree with me aren't arguing for a Druid. It is pretty clear at this point you don't even know what a Shaman is capable of if you think a Druid would provide more on average.

The other people have NOT provided math hehe, that's the problem. The data they have provided doesn't help their case. You need to read the thread a bit more carefully.

You are simply saying "I am right and you are wrong", because you are just making a claim without evidence. I can do that too. If I say "Shamans are better and I don't need to provide evidence", we are back to square one. You said it, I said it, and we are at an impasse.

From page 3, post 30.

How clairvoyant was I?

https://c.tenor.com/IoIn9W74-lcAAAAC/youre-a-wizard-hagrid.gif

It was a self fulfilling prophecy. You are the one providing the bad arguments. This thread would have been over a long time ago if you could just look at the math objectively and realize Mage DPS isn't as much as you thought.

[PatChapp]

There is one thing a druid brings that shaman doesn't. Snared pet is happy pet,major increase in safety.

I'm not saying they are better or worse,just that there is a very strong argument to have one around.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There is one thing a druid brings that shaman doesn't. Snared pet is happy pet,major increase in safety.

I'm not saying they are better or worse,just that there is a very strong argument to have one around.

The same thing can be said for Malo. A Malosini'ed pet is a happy pet. With two healers (a Shaman heals much better than a Druid), you are in a good spot without Snare. Plus a Shaman can AoE slow in an emergency if you really need to drop mob DPS.

And for the sake of argument, let's say we could prove snare is far superior safety wise. That would still mean you wouldn't bring a Mage hehe. It would just mean people have been underestimating the poor Druids!

[PlsNoBan]

You are simply saying "I am right and you are wrong", because you are just making a claim without evidence. I can do that too. If I say "Shamans are better and I don't need to provide evidence", we are back to square one. You said it, I said it, and we are at an impasse.

The difference is you are the singular dissenting opinion going up against the common sense opinion of just about every other person that knows anything about this game. Your opinion is not on equal footing.

[Troxx]

Singular.
Dissenting.
Opinion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The difference is you are the singular dissenting opinion going up against the common sense opinion of just about every other person that knows anything about this game. Your opinion is not on equal footing.

The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject. - Marcus Aurelius

[PlsNoBan]

That's literally like saying "I say the earth is flat and you say it's round. Our opinions are equal"

That's not how it works fella

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject. - Marcus Aurelius

Also, OP picked Shaman over Mage:)

[PlsNoBan]

The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject. - Marcus Aurelius

So your claim is you're the only person that understands EQ and nobody else does? Nobody has agreed with you this entire thread. 1 or 2 people said you had a point about something but nobody is taking the same stance as you overall. Very bold claim!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So your claim is you're the only person that understands EQ and nobody else does? Nobody has agreed with you this entire thread. 1 or 2 people said you had a point about something but nobody is taking the same stance as you overall. Very bold claim!

I never said that at all. You are the one making the claim that "people agree with me, therefore I am right". You can check the post history lol.

Also OP picked Shaman over Mage.

[PlsNoBan]

The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject. - Marcus Aurelius

Also, OP picked Shaman over Mage:)

OP also picked shaman over cleric. They obviously made a preference choice not a min/max choice. Are you really this stupid? Come the fuck on bro

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I never said that at all. You are the one making the claim that "people agree with me, therefore I am right". You can check the post history lol.

Also OP picked Shaman over Mage.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/-JTNmItIzR8AAAAd/silly-world.gif

[PlsNoBan]

I never said that at all.

I said everyone disagrees you're the only one that holds your stance. You made some dumb quote about how 10k people can be wrong cause they don't know about the subject matter. Thus implying everyone is wrong and doesn't understand EQ and only you do.

Jesus fuck do I really have to spell out what you said back to you?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I said everyone disagrees you're the only one that holds your stance. You made some dumb quote about how 10k people can be wrong cause they don't know about the subject matter. Thus implying everyone is wrong and you're the only right one.

Jesus fuck do I really have to spell out what you said back to you?

You made the claim "everybody agrees with me, therefore I am right". The quote I posted rebuts this silly claim, and we are back to square one. You clearly don't understand the quote if you think it means "Everybody is wrong and I am the only right one" lol.

Provide evidence of your claims. Otherwise you are just being silly, and you have made 0 progress towards convincing anyone you are correct.

[PlsNoBan]

You made the claim "everybody agrees with me, therefore I am right". The quote I posted rebuts this silly claim, and we are back to square one.

Provide evidence of your claims. Otherwise you are just being silly, and you have made 0 progress towards convincing anyone you are correct.

You made the claim "the earth is a sphere and everyone agrees therefore I am right". I say its flat and both these claims are equally valid thus we are back at square one and ur a silly goose.


I don't have to convince anyone that I'm right. Literally everyone but you already knows.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You made the claim "everybody agrees with me, therefore I am right". The quote I posted rebuts this silly claim, and we are back to square one. You clearly don't understand the quote if you think it means "Everybody is wrong and I am the only right one" lol.

Provide evidence of your claims. Otherwise you are just being silly, and you have made 0 progress towards convincing anyone you are correct.

[PlsNoBan]

I don't have to convince anyone that I'm right. Literally everyone but you already knows.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You have lost the debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum is a fallacy hehe.

[PlsNoBan]

You have lost the debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum is a fallacy hehe.

You

Are

Braindead

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am not.

Literally everyone but you already knows.

You are using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum to try and win the debate. I am sorry, but that doesn't work. It is a fallacy.

Provide evidence for your claims please, or admit defeat.

[PatChapp]

The same thing can be said for Malo. A Malosini'ed pet is a happy pet. With two healers (a Shaman heals much better than a Druid), you are in a good spot without Snare. Plus a Shaman can AoE slow in an emergency if you really need to drop mob DPS.

And for the sake of argument, let's say we could prove snare is far superior safety wise. That would still mean you wouldn't bring a Mage hehe. It would just mean people have been underestimating the poor Druids!


I think safetywise it would depend on the mobs MR. Enchanter can debuff -80 with some cheap items, bit more with some slightly more expensive ones,topping out at -95 I believe.
If the mobs aren't very high mr,that should bring most to near zero

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think safetywise it would depend on the mobs MR. Enchanter can debuff -80 with some cheap items, bit more with some slightly more expensive ones,topping out at -95 I believe.
If the mobs aren't very high mr,that should bring most to near zero

Malosini adds an extra -60. If the mob never breaks Charm due to their MR being low enough already, you wouldn't need snare either.

[Danth]

Debate has subtly shifted from shaman matching magician damage in normal situatons--that's been largely walked back from--to the classic offense vs. defense/utility debate that will rage as long as this genre exists. Nobody's winning that one and if someone even could it would indicate a major game balance problem.

My problem with a magician isn't even the shaman, exactly, but that unless I need to be Call of the Hero'd someplace I will always prefer a necromancer. A Shaman can at least justify himself once in awhile--your cleric goes AFK, or doesn't log on, you go to West Wastes and want a pseudo-tank, etc. I regard both magician and shaman as a 4th in that group as a battle of the back-ups but between them I still like the shaman better, accepting that in practice the difference in outcome will be relatively minor in either case and there are some individual locations that favor the magician.

Danth

[PatChapp]

Malosini adds an extra -60. If the mob never breaks Charm due to their MR being low enough already, you wouldn't need snare either.

Mobs at this level are likely to require boltrans, which is the shorter duration charm. Your still dealing with regular breaks,even if the mobs are 0mr.
Malo is helpful for sure, especially since a lot of enchanters for some reason don't use the cheap -mr gear.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Debate has subtly shifted from shaman matching magician damage in normal situatons--that's been largely walked back from--to the classic offense vs. defense/utility debate that will rage as long as this genre exists. Nobody's winning that one and if someone even could it would indicate a major game balance problem.

My problem with a magician isn't even the shaman, exactly, but that unless I need to be Call of the Hero'd someplace I will always prefer a necromancer. A Shaman can at least justify himself once in awhile--your cleric goes AFK, or doesn't log on, you go to West Wastes and want a pseudo-tank, etc. I regard both magician and shaman as a 4th in that group as a battle of the back-ups but between them I still like the shaman better, accepting that in practice the difference in outcome will be relatively minor in either case and there are some individual locations that favor the magician.

Danth

I didn't walk it back to be honest. Someone simply pointed out that you could get a bit more DPS from clickies. It was a good point, and changes the equation a bit, but a Shaman can also get more DPS from clickies. My calculations for 80DPS vs. 70DPS weren't taking into account Shaman or Mage clickies. It wasn't a one sided shift.

Math-wise Mage and Shaman DPS doesn't have a vast gulf, like people have been trying to claim. The entire argument of bringing a Mage is Malo + Charm Break Safety + DPS. A Shaman has Malo + Charm Break Safety covered, and DPS wise the different isn't vast. A difference in 30 DPS isn't going to matter with two Charmed Enchanter pets. A Shaman is simply bringing a much broader toolkit to the table without a huge sacrifice in DPS.

Again, this is assuming a level 60 group that doesn't need CoTH. As I have always stated, a Mage is superior levels 1-59, because Torpor is what pushes the Shaman ahead.

[Gloomlord]

If you think a Druid would bring more than a Shaman, you have lost the debate. Unless you are in an area where the Druid can Charm, you gain very little from adding the Druid. Even the people who disagree with me aren't arguing for a Druid. It is pretty clear at this point you don't even know what a Shaman is capable of if you think a Druid would provide more on average.

The other people have NOT provided math hehe, that's the problem. The data they have provided doesn't help their case. You need to read the thread a bit more carefully.

You are simply saying "I am right and you are wrong", because you are just making a claim without evidence. I can do that too. If I say "Shamans are better and I don't need to provide evidence", we are back to square one. You said it, I said it, and we are at an impasse.



It was a self fulfilling prophecy. You are the one providing the bad arguments. This thread would have been over a long time ago if you could just look at the math objectively and realize Mage DPS isn't as much as you thought.

Guys, I think it's obvious he's a troll with the way he speaks.

The pathological lying and twisting your counter arguments into something they weren't.

We're arguing about why mage is better, then you bring in the insane argument that the shaman isn't so redundant if the cleric can throw in his animation when he heals. That's when I said, by that logic, even a druid is better.

Druid would bring damage shield, evac, better nukes and even a potential 3rd charm if it were something like Chardok.

No, noone is arguing for a druid. That's correct. Stop deliberately misinterpreting that point I made, because we all know we're talking about a mage overtaking a shaman here.

[PlsNoBan]

I am not.



You are using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum to try and win the debate. I am sorry, but that doesn't work. It is a fallacy.

Provide evidence for your claims please, or admit defeat.

You are using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism to post a dumb opinion nobody else shares 200+ times. I'm sorry, but that doesn't work. It is autism.

Please get medication. I know you won't admit defeat no matter how wrong you are or what data anyone comes up with.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Guys, I think it's obvious he's a troll with the way he speaks.

The pathological lying and twisting your counter arguments into something they weren't.

We're arguing about why mage is better, then you bring in the insane argument that the shaman isn't so redundant if the cleric can throw in his animation when he heals. That's when I said, by that logic, even a druid is better.

Druid would bring damage shield, evac, better nukes and even a potential 3rd charm if it were something like Chardok.

No, noone is arguing for a druid. That's correct. Stop deliberately misinterpreting that point I made, because we all know we're talking about a mage overtaking a shaman here.

Insults will get you no where.

You are trying to suggest a Druid would be better than a Shaman in this situation. You are the only person arguing this, so you need to bring some evidence to support a Druid being superior over a Shaman.

I also never said anything about a Cleric Animation hehe. I was talking about the Cleric nuke Reckoning. I am not sure where you are getting the Cleric Animation idea from.

[Troxx]

You’re thinking concretely again ..

We should come up with a DSM bingo card set … or better yet a buzz word drinking game. Actually that’s a bad idea as given how often he posts and how often he says the same exact things we’d all be dead from alcohol poisoning in about 45-90 minutes depending on your tolerance.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You’re thinking concretely again ..

You are continuing to embarrass yourself. Again:)

[Troxx]

I trust someone is good with photoshop and can draft us the bing cards though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I trust someone is good with photoshop and can draft us the bing cards though.

You could spend that time collecting data to prove your claims. The argument would be over if you could provide the data that definitively proves your points.

[Gloomlord]

Accusing you of trolling and lying is insulting you now?

Yeah, you're a troll. It's case closed here now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Accusing you of trolling and lying is insulting you now?

Yeah, you're a troll. It's case closed here now.

So if I accuse you of trolling and lying, does that mean it's true? I am not sure why you think you have some sort of upper hand when making these claims lol. You don't have a monopoly on deciding these things.

You haven't brought any evidence to back up your claims, and resort to insults instead.

[Gloomlord]

I may be wrong, potentially, when I make accusations like that, but it's hardly an insult. You're reaching.

Yes, reading your post about Reckoning. My apologies there. However...

That still doesn't overtake a mage, and you know that.

[Kich867]

I mean you're all obviously wrong. It's Rogue/Rogue/Rogue/Cleric.

Cleric root tanks everything and then you've got rezzes for when everyone dies.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I mean you're all obviously wrong. It's Rogue/Rogue/Rogue/Cleric.

Cleric root tanks everything and then you've got rezzes for when everyone dies.

Lol yes, a Rogue has superior DPS to a Mage. The Last one I parsed in Seb was doing around 133 DPS per kill just with Epic, a good offhand, and Celerity.

OP was asking for a group with Casters/Priests only, so for this specific exercise Rogues are disqualified.

[Troxx]

You could spend that time collecting data to prove your claims. The argument would be over if you could provide the data that definitively proves your points.

We have yet to seen you join a fast moving full group and do a few hours of fast paced fast killing grind to parse and show us how awesome shamans are at dps … only some napkin math and a log of you soloing a low level frog with your fancy pants dots that are worthless with the fights are 20-30sec long.

But by all means …

https://c.tenor.com/jfKTQfYq7rcAAAAC/please-do-go-on.gif

[Gloomlord]

You’re thinking concretely again ..

We should come up with a DSM bingo card set … or better yet a buzz word drinking game. Actually that’s a bad idea as given how often he posts and how often he says the same exact things we’d all be dead from alcohol poisoning in about 45-90 minutes depending on your tolerance.

Honestly, I just wanted to bring in that autism is irrelevant to this discussion, and here I am making a mistake adding more fuel to the fire which is DSM's inane ramblings.

My apologies to you guys.

[eqravenprince]

You’re thinking concretely again ..

We should come up with a DSM bingo card set … or better yet a buzz word drinking game. Actually that’s a bad idea as given how often he posts and how often he says the same exact things we’d all be dead from alcohol poisoning in about 45-90 minutes depending on your tolerance.

I like DSM. He can debate things to death which I love about him. I like debating myself. I think he puts a lot of thought into things and is quick to help others with a post.

[Danth]

You’re thinking concretely again ..

We should come up with a DSM bingo card set … or better yet a buzz word drinking game. Actually that’s a bad idea as given how often he posts and how often he says the same exact things we’d all be dead from alcohol poisoning in about 45-90 minutes depending on your tolerance.

I'm a teetotaler so I like the card game idea better.

I like DSM. He can debate things to death which I love about him. I like debating myself. I think he puts a lot of thought into things and is quick to help others with a post.

He's kind of a like a pit bull: When he bites onto something, he doesn't let go, and tends to hold on longer than others might. As with the pit bull, don't give him a reason to bite and he's good company.

[PlsNoBan]

I mean you're all obviously wrong. It's Rogue/Rogue/Rogue/Cleric.

Cleric root tanks everything and then you've got rezzes for when everyone dies.

The OP (62 pages ago) was asking about the best 4 man caster group. Rogue (likely multiple) would definitely be part of a "best 4 man group" that includes melee.

[Ripqozko]

I like DSM. He can debate things to death which I love about him. I like debating myself. I think he puts a lot of thought into things and is quick to help others with a post.

Found the VQ guildy

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I like DSM. He can debate things to death which I love about him. I like debating myself. I think he puts a lot of thought into things and is quick to help others with a post.

Thanks!

We have yet to seen you join a fast moving full group and do a few hours of fast paced fast killing grind to parse and show us how awesome shamans are at dps … only some napkin math and a log of you soloing a low level frog with your fancy pants dots that are worthless with the fights are 20-30sec long.

But by all means …

https://c.tenor.com/jfKTQfYq7rcAAAAC/please-do-go-on.gif

A Mage's DPS is also going to be lower in a fight that is 20-30 seconds long:)

https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling has a 17 second cast, so you are only getting off 1 per fight.

Your DS is also losing about half of it's DPS.

So a Mage fighting a Mob that lives for 30 seconds is doing 56 DPS from Pet + 7 DPS from DS + 20 DPS from https://wiki.project1999.com/Boots_of_Bladecalling (600 / 30). That is a total of 83 DPS.

A Shaman is going to do 2x Ice Strikes (1350 / 2) = 45 DPS, plus roughly 15 DPS from their pet for a total of 60 DPS.

You are looking at a difference of 23 DPS on average in a fight that has already been made 30 seconds long due to the 2x Enchanter pets, NOT the Mage lol.

[Kich867]

I mean you're all obviously wrong. It's Rogue/Rogue/Rogue/Cleric.

Cleric root tanks everything and then you've got rezzes for when everyone dies.

Lol yes, a Rogue has superior DPS to a Mage. The Last one I parsed in Seb was doing around 133 DPS per kill just with Epic, a good offhand, and Celerity.

OP was asking for a group with Casters/Priests only, so for this specific exercise Rogues are disqualified.

The OP (62 pages ago) was asking about the best 4 man caster group. Rogue (likely multiple) would definitely be part of a "best 4 man group" that includes melee.

:|

[Troxx]

DSM. Download GamParse. Get a 6 man group that’s dps heavy (charming chanter, tunare monk, and raid geared knight). Get down to seb and join the group as a dps toon. Show us what you can do! You begged for logs, parses and evidence from me but thus far have only provided napkin math from you.

-No need to worry that you can’t parse your epic dot or other dots as they will be garbage dps when you have 30 seconds or less
-you’re probably better of nuking
-I recommend you get a max pet that doubles for 52 (not lower)
-probably be helpful if you str/focus stack your pet to ensure more max hits

No more napkin math.
No more logs of you solo dotting low level frogs
No more “but I can totally root rot 4-5 mobs parallel to the group”

Will you commit?

[Troxx]

I don’t have boots of bladecalling. I cast my spells manually and the parses I posted somewhere around page 22-23 show fights ranging from like 20-40 seconds. What you see in them is the damage I was putting out in fast paced fights in a high dps group (of which I was generally the biggest contributor).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM. Download GamParse. Get a 6 man group that’s dps heavy (charming chanter, tunare monk, and raid geared knight). Get down to seb and join the group as a dps toon. Show us what you can do! You begged for logs, parses and evidence from me but thus far have only provided napkin math from you.

-No need to worry that you can’t parse your epic dot or other dots as they will be garbage dps when you have 30 seconds or less
-you’re probably better of nuking
-I recommend you get a max pet that doubles for 52 (not lower)
-probably be helpful if you str/focus stack your pet to ensure more max hits

No more napkin math.
No more logs of you solo dotting low level frogs
No more “but I can totally root rot 4-5 mobs parallel to the group”

Will you commit?

I already said I would be willing to do a test with people if we can organize it.

It is not napkin math, the parse I gave you is real data.

I don't need GamParse. I have no idea if that program is working correctly.

All you need is the logs (that is what GamParse uses anyway). Using the raw data removes any potential for bugs on the part of GamParse.

And yes, if we are talking about Sebilis I can indeed root/rot mobs lol. I am not sure why I have to gimp my character just so you can feel better about your Mage.

[Troxx]

Just got home from work. Want singles broken out not compiled? Heres a few

https://images4.imagebam.com/a1/ba/b2/MECDEYY_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/6a/07/fa/MECDEYZ_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/c9/a2/8b/MECDEZ3_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/fb/d3/16/MECDEZ5_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/e2/a6/8c/MECDEZ7_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/a5/43/MECDEZ9_o.png

Later on in same group after I had to make a new pet. I call this series "omg the mage out-dps'd the enchanter pet!

https://images4.imagebam.com/d8/83/a6/MECDF2B_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/3e/cc/60/MECDF2D_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/34/2a/e4/MECDF2F_o.png

#micdrop

Bah sorry it was a few pages after where I thought it was.
-look at fight duration
-no damage clickies used (I have none)

It’s your turn to give is some actual parses.

No more napkin math.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I guess you missed the data I posted like 12 times:)

For Shaman DPS:

My Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:34 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:18 2022] Your Bane of Nife spell has worn off.

[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:41 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off.


[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
30 seconds (6 Ticks)

[Mon Aug 22 08:13:25 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
24 seconds (4 Ticks)

Enemy Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:32 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP

Pet DPS
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:24 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:25 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:28 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 16 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:33 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:42 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:43 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:44 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 39 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:49 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:53 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:56 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:58 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 20 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:01 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:03 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:05 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:06 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:15 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:17 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:22 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:30 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:38 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:41 2022] You bash froglok jin shaman for 1 point of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:42 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 21 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 26 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:54 2022] You have slain froglok jin shaman!

6,549 damage over 93 seconds = 70.5 DPS

That's real data, and has no chance of error (good or bad) from GamParse.

I am also not using a max level pet, and my pet is not Enchanter hasted.

[Troxx]

I will take you seriously when you provide some objective data that isn’t you soloing a level 40 frog or drawing comparisons to root rotting multiple mobs in tandem solo.

https://c.tenor.com/X2zRv3xs3toAAAAd/time-to-nut-up-or-shut-up-get-ready.gif

Seriously I challenge you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am sorry, but that's real data. I don't care if you don't believe it lol. If you want to call me a liar, I can do the same thing to you and we would be at an impasse, since nobody can actually prove if this data is legit or not.

In Sebilis most mobs are level 40-50 lol. Your data doesn't even tell us which mobs you were fighting. You can't even prove these parses aren't from low level frogs:) I at least am not hiding what I was fighting.

[Troxx]

I will take you seriously when you provide some objective data that isn’t you soloing a level 40 frog or drawing comparisons to root rotting multiple mobs in tandem solo.

https://c.tenor.com/X2zRv3xs3toAAAAd/time-to-nut-up-or-shut-up-get-ready.gif

Seriously I challenge you.

[PlsNoBan]

This thread is such a trainwreck and I can't look away

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I will come up with a showcase video if I have time tonight. I will use your data exactly to simulate the encounters. I have to make a bunch of assumptions on your data, since you aren't providing spell casting data, mana usage, or which mobs you are actually attacking. It will be fun:)

[Troxx]

Parses please. No YouTube videos. Want to do both? Great! Include the videos. But concrete, hard objective data.

Time to stop farting around.

FYSA the parses I linked were seb crypt.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Parses please. No YouTube videos. Want to do both? Great! Include the videos. But concrete, hard objective data.

Time to stop farting around.

FYSA the parses I linked were seb crypt.

I will provide both, which will be far superior to your parses with missing data:) I will have the video, so you could double check all the numbers if you wanted to. Then the ball will be in your court if you want to dispute, because my data will be undisputable, while yours isn't.

[Troxx]

Gamparse is a good program. There are others out there but it does a good job. It has different viewing tabs to include one that gives you the spam of the raw logs. I recommend you turn on other’s damage hits so you can parse your group mates as well. Remember, the goal here is to see how much dps a shaman can do in a fast paced, fast killing full group. Mine included charm pet (most of the time), another mage with epic, and a tunare/ST monk other than myself.

That is the scope of this topic, this thread, and therefore the burden of proof is to show us how great your shaman is at doing it.

Regarding your disputable/undisputable jab, I can unfortunately predict where this is going. Once you fail to show that a shaman can keep up with respectable dps (or at least as good as you think you can) under these conditions I fully expect your next angle will to say that what I’ve provided (took all of 5 minutes to compile and another 5 to screenshot a jpg of) is “disputable”. I hope my prediction is wrong.

Sad thing is I have a shaman with all the same spells/levels and the same pet it’s yours. Your best bet is going to be slinging your highest hitting ice nuke repeatedly if mobs are dying fast. Bane and especially Pox are going to be underperforming mana hogs with high speed fights.

The question is will you be able to sling enough ice nukes frequently/fast enough (with canni mana regeneration advantage). Remember: mage nukes cast faster, hit harder, are more mana efficient. You’ll have more mana to play with but unlike your pet, the level 60 mage water pet isn’t a joke.

I’m interested in what you can put out over a long hall dps session sustainably fight after fight after fight and how it stacks up.

(Unfortunately I already know … because my 60 epic troll shaman has done this kind of exercise in the past).

Ps I recommend against spamming JBB as its dps won’t be nearly enough.

PPS: chain casting ice strike precisely every 7 seconds with no lag, fizzle, or partial resist has a 96 dps potential. Unfortunately you’ll have to be taking time to canni and torpor, so actual expected dps is going to be lower. Remember you got about 50dps worth of “bad pet” to make up the difference for before you actually start competing with mage DS and mage nukes.

I wish you luck and am very interested to see your findings. And remember!! While you are furiously mashing buttons non stop trying to put out these numbers, my mage did it causally chatting and peacefully meditating and checking the stock market … standing up to sling a few nukes. Super chill, very relaxing xp and loot grind session.

[Toxigen]

Dkk9gvTmCXY

@DSM

[PlsNoBan]

Gamparse is a good program. There are others out there but it does a good job. It has different viewing tabs to include one that gives you the spam of the raw logs. I recommend you turn on other’s damage hits so you can parse your group mates as well. Remember, the goal here is to see how much dps a shaman can do in a fast paced, fast killing full group. Mine included charm pet (most of the time), another mage with epic, and a tunare/ST monk other than myself.

That is the scope of this topic, this thread, and therefore the burden of proof is to show us how great your shaman is at doing it.

Regarding your disputable/undisputable jab, I can unfortunately predict where this is going. Once you fail to show that a shaman can keep up with respectable dps (or at least as good as you think you can) under these conditions I fully expect your next angle will to say that what I’ve provided (took all of 5 minutes to compile and another 5 to screenshot a jpg of) is “disputable”. I hope my prediction is wrong.

Sad thing is I have a shaman with all the same spells/levels and the same pet it’s yours. Your best bet is going to be slinging your highest hitting ice nuke repeatedly if mobs are dying fast. Bane and especially Pox are going to be underperforming mana hogs with high speed fights.

The question is will you be able to sling enough ice nukes frequently/fast enough (with canni mana regeneration advantage). Remember: mage nukes cast faster, hit harder, are more mana efficient. You’ll have more mana to play with but unlike your pet, the level 60 mage water pet isn’t a joke.

I’m interested in what you can put out over a long hall dps session sustainably fight after fight after fight and how it stacks up.

(Unfortunately I already know … because my 60 epic troll shaman has done this kind of exercise in the past).

Ps I recommend against spamming JBB as its dps won’t be nearly enough.

PPS: chain casting ice strike precisely every 7 seconds with no lag, fizzle, or partial resist has a 96 dps potential. Unfortunately you’ll have to be taking time to canni and torpor, so actual expected dps is going to be lower. Remember you got about 50dps worth of “bad pet” to make up the difference for before you actually start competing with mage DS and mage nukes.

I wish you luck and am very interested to see your findings. And remember!! While you are furiously mashing buttons non stop trying to put out these numbers, my mage did it causally chatting and peacefully meditating and checking the stock market … standing up to sling a few nukes. Super chill, very relaxing xp and loot grind session.

You clearly don't understand math. If you math hard enough your shaman will outdps your mage while tanking and healing and debuffing and canni spamming all at the same time.

[Ripqozko]

Join VQ and be around DSM all the time, apply today

[Danth]

Your best bet is going to be slinging your highest hitting ice nuke repeatedly if mobs are dying fast. Bane and especially Pox are going to be underperforming mana hogs with high speed fights.

The question is will you be able to sling enough ice nukes frequently/fast enough (with canni mana regeneration advantage). Remember: mage nukes cast faster, hit harder, are more mana efficient. You’ll have more mana to play with but unlike your pet, the level 60 mage water pet isn’t a joke.

Yeah, rapid chain pulls tend to play to the magician's favor. The shaman'll like having moderate gaps where both might burst while in combat but afterward the shaman'll recover more quickly than the magician can.

[Ripqozko]

Yeah, rapid chain pulls tend to play to the magician's favor. The shaman'll like having moderate gaps where both might burst while in combat but afterward the shaman'll recover more quickly than the magician can.

Do you even math ? Clearly you don’t understand math . It’s all written out if you look at the math . I’m not the troll, everyone else is clearly not reading the math .

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ok got two videos and logs. As usual, the math is right lol. I am not sure why people think there is some mysticism here.

This test assumes no clickies and no mana regen buffs. The Shaman and the Mage are level 60. The test mob was https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which matches the level of the trash mobs in Crypt.

Based on Troxx's data, the average kill speed for his group was 36 seconds. So I am using that.

Shaman DPS = 17.7 from pet + 37.5 DPS at 2 Ice Strikes per 36 seconds for a total of 55.2 DPS. Mana lost: Rougly 1724 mana. The mana loss isn't 100% accurate since I needed to face tank the mob.

Mage DPS from Troxx logs: 56 DPS from pet + 23 DPS from shock of steel once per 36 seconds + 3.7 DPS from damage shield when getting hit 26 times over the entire video (logs show hits) for a total of 82.7 DPS. Mana lost is 2260, assuming the Mage is meditating at 8 ticks per minute (needs to stand up to nuke for 1-2 ticks).

No resists occurred on my Ice Strike spell. No partial resists occurred either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman DPS video, logs are attached in description.

Shaman DPS is 55.2

Mage DPS is 82.7.

Difference is 27.5.

You decide whether roughly 30 DPS is worth a Mage:)

As my other log data showed:

For Shaman DPS:

My Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:34 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:18 2022] Your Bane of Nife spell has worn off.

[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:41 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off.


[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] You begin casting Bane of Nife.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 150 points of damage.
30 seconds (6 Ticks)

[Mon Aug 22 08:13:25 2022] You begin casting Envenomed Bolt.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 110 points of damage.
24 seconds (4 Ticks)

Enemy Spells
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:32 2022] Froglok jin shaman feels much better. +270HP

Pet DPS
=========
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:23 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:24 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:25 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:26 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:28 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:31 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 16 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:33 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:42 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:43 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:44 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 39 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:49 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:53 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:54 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:56 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:12:58 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 20 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:01 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:03 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:05 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:06 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 30 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 41 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:12 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:15 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:17 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:19 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 17 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:21 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:22 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:24 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:26 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:29 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:30 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:31 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:33 2022] froglok jin shaman was hit by non-melee for 8 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:35 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 13 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:36 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 12 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:38 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:40 2022] Xibarer bashes froglok jin shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:41 2022] You bash froglok jin shaman for 1 point of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:42 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 21 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:44 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 24 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:45 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:47 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 34 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 47 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:51 2022] Xibarer kicks froglok jin shaman for 22 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 28 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:52 2022] Xibarer bites froglok jin shaman for 26 points of damage.
[Mon Aug 22 08:13:54 2022] You have slain froglok jin shaman!

6,549 damage over 93 seconds = 70.5 DPS

A Shaman's DPS increases as well if the fight lasts longer, which means they can use their DoTs. That was 70 DPS, no clickies. So the difference could shrink to about 10 DPS.

As you can see, the numbers are the same as the math I showed earlier. It is not "napkin math" lol, it is just math:)

[Vexenu]

I didn't walk it back to be honest. Someone simply pointed out that you could get a bit more DPS from clickies. It was a good point, and changes the equation a bit, but a Shaman can also get more DPS from clickies. My calculations for 80DPS vs. 70DPS weren't taking into account Shaman or Mage clickies. It wasn't a one sided shift.

Math-wise Mage and Shaman DPS doesn't have a vast gulf, like people have been trying to claim. The entire argument of bringing a Mage is Malo + Charm Break Safety + DPS. A Shaman has Malo + Charm Break Safety covered, and DPS wise the different isn't vast. A difference in 30 DPS isn't going to matter with two Charmed Enchanter pets. A Shaman is simply bringing a much broader toolkit to the table without a huge sacrifice in DPS.

I just want to point how how you continue to move the goalposts. You started out saying that a Shaman can out-DPS a Mage, then you shifted to saying the Shaman is "close enough" DPS to the Mage, now you are saying that a Shaman can also be casting slow and Malo as well as spamming a JBB, while still putting out DPS comparable to a Mage. The entire basis of your "math" argument rested on the fact that a Shaman can output respectable DPS across multiple rooted mobs IF YOU DO NOTHING BUT CAST DOTS AND CANNI/TORPOR NONSTOP. And yet you continue to pile on all these other things the Shaman is supposedly doing at the same time. It's almost as if you are dishonest, or more probably just have an enormous intellectual blind spot in this argument as a consequence of your "special" psychology.


A Mage's DPS is also going to be lower in a fight that is 20-30 seconds long

And here we see you don't even understand the concept of DPS, or at least how DPS works for a Mage compared to a Shaman. A Mage does not need his DoTs to ramp up over time the way a Shaman does with Epic, or with any DoT for that matter to get the full mana/HP value of the spell. The Mage pet is basically a chainsaw you aim at a mob and it does XXX damage every second it's attacking. It doesn't matter if it attacks the mob for 10 seconds or 1000 seconds. The DPS is the same because it always does XXX damage for every second its attacking (on average). And as long as the fight lasts long enough to get one clickie nuke from staff or boots, you are also getting the full DPS value from those items as well. And most importantly, all of that damage from the pet and the clickie nuke is MANA-FREE and can be sustained indefinitely with essentially zero effort besides two button clicks per mob. Meanwhile, you are apparently rooting, slowing, maloing, casting epic, JBB, Pox, Bane, Canni and Torpor all while maintaining DPS equivalent to a Mage who is using ZERO MANA. It's an asinine claim.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I just want to point how how you continue to move the goalposts. You started out saying that a Shaman can out-DPS a Mage, then you shifted to saying the Shaman is "close enough" DPS to the Mage, now you are saying that a Shaman can also be casting slow and Malo as well as spamming a JBB, while still putting out DPS comparable to a Mage. The entire basis of your "math" argument rested on the fact that a Shaman can output respectable DPS across multiple rooted mobs IF YOU DO NOTHING BUT CAST DOTS AND CANNI/TORPOR NONSTOP. And yet you continue to pile on all these other things the Shaman is supposedly doing at the same time. It's almost as if you are dishonest, or more probably just have an enormous intellectual blind spot in this argument as a consequence of your "special" psychology.



And here we see you don't even understand the concept of DPS, or at least how DPS works for a Mage compared to a Shaman. A Mage does not need his DoTs to ramp up over time the way a Shaman does with Epic, or with any DoT for that matter to get the full mana/HP value of the spell. The Mage pet is basically a chainsaw you aim at a mob and it does XXX damage every second it's attacking. It doesn't matter if it attacks the mob for 10 seconds or 1000 seconds. The DPS is the same because it always does XXX damage for every second its attacking (on average). And as long as the fight lasts long enough to get one clickie nuke from staff or boots, you are also getting the full DPS value from those items as well. And most importantly, all of that damage from the pet and the clickie nuke is MANA-FREE and can be sustained indefinitely with essentially zero effort besides two button clicks per mob. Meanwhile, you are apparently rooting, slowing, maloing, casting epic, JBB, Pox, Bane, Canni and Torpor all while maintaining DPS equivalent to a Mage who is using ZERO MANA. It's an asinine claim.

Just read my previous post (the one above yours). I have the data in it. You were replying a bit too late:) Sorry you're so mad.

[PlsNoBan]

Ok got two videos and logs. As usual, the math is right lol. I am not sure why people think there is some mysticism here.

This test assumes no clickies and no mana regen buffs. The Shaman and the Mage are level 60. The test mob was https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem , which matches the level of the trash mobs in Crypt.

Based on Troxx's data, the average kill speed for his group was 36 seconds. So I am using that.

Shaman DPS = 17.7 from pet + 37.5 DPS at 2 Ice Strikes per 36 seconds for a total of 55.2 DPS. Mana lost: Rougly 1724 mana. The mana loss isn't 100% accurate since I needed to face tank the mob.

Mage DPS from Troxx logs: 56 DPS from pet + 23 DPS from shock of steel once per 36 seconds + 3.7 DPS from damage shield when getting hit 26 times over the entire video (logs show hits) for a total of 82.7 DPS. Mana lost is 2260, assuming the Mage is meditating at 8 ticks per minute (needs to stand up to nuke for 1-2 ticks).

No resists occurred on my Ice Strike spell. No partial resists occurred either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-g8Ywibztg - Pet DPS video, logs are attached in description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E - Shaman DPS video, logs are attached in description.

Shaman DPS is 55.2

Mage DPS is 82.7.

Difference is 27.5.

You decide whether roughly 30 DPS is worth a Mage:)

As my other log data showed:



A Shaman's DPS increases as well if the fight lasts longer, which means they can use their DoTs. That was 70 DPS, no clickies. So the difference could shrink to about 10 DPS.

As you can see, the numbers are the same as the math I showed earlier. It is not "napkin math" lol, it is just math:)

When the top end dps is 80 a difference of 30 is fairly substantial. I'm surprised with all your math skills you don't realize that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

When the top end dps is 80 a difference of 30 is fairly substantial. I'm surprised with all your math skills you don't realize that.

So you have finally conceded the math is correct!

No, 30 DPS isn't that big of a deal when looking at all of the other things a Shaman offers.

If you are killing a mob with 8000 HP in 36 seconds, that means your DPS is 222 already. A difference of 30 would change the kill speed from 36 to 42 seconds. That is a difference of 6 seconds. Now I know people will think that's good, but you aren't considering the other things a Shaman can do to save the party time. So really it's a smaller difference, but harder to quantify.

[Vexenu]

I don't see you casting slow, Malo, Epic, JBB, Pox, root, spot heals, canni and Torpor in that log, all of which you have claimed at various times in this thread you will be regularly casting, and all of which together would substantially change your ridiculous little math calculation and reveal it to be the work of an utter imbecile.

Or are you now claiming you will just stand there spamming Bane and E-bolt for hours on end in a sad (and still futile!) attempt to out-DPS a Mage?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't see you casting slow, Malo, Epic, JBB, Pox, root, spot heals, canni and Torpor in that log, all of which you have claimed at various times in this thread you will be regularly casting, and all of which together would substantially change your ridiculous little math calculation and reveal it to be the work of an utter imbecile.

Or are you now claiming you will just stand there spamming Bane and E-bolt for hours on end in a sad (and still futile!) attempt to out-DPS a Mage?

It's your turn to show some data. I have literally done all the work for you. Stop being silly and concede or provide evidence.

[Ripqozko]

Join VQ and play with DSM

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Join VQ and play with DSM

Yup. I am helping other players understand the game better. Most of the other posters are trolling, including yourself. I think people would rather avoid the trolls who refuse to admit they are wrong.

[Danth]

Do you even math ? Clearly you don’t understand math . It’s all written out if you look at the math.

It's that blasted New Math again, isn't it?

------------------------------

When the top end dps is 80 a difference of 30 is fairly substantial. I'm surprised with all your math skills you don't realize that.

A 30 DPS difference is large comparing them individually but not especially sigificant as part of the larger hypothetical group. We already have a couple of hasted/buffed/etc charm pets shredding stuff in our group. A 6-man won't want the shaman as a damage-dealer, but a 6-man pickup group breaks and forms on-site and is ever-changing so they're covering their utility on an as-needed, custom basis. This thread intended to discuss a single, set group intended to do all content throughout the entire game. Frankly I don't care if I can mow something down in 33 seconds with a magician or 30 seconds with a shaman then wait 4 min instead of 5 at the end of the round while stuff respawns. I care what the raw capability of the group is, so I care more about camps where one character is *strongly* preferred over the other. Math won't get us there.

We all liked the magician over the shaman for Juggernauts, even Shamwowi. Probably all of us (I assume?) would like the shaman over the magician for West Wastes dragons. Who wins at more individual locations? I'll be frank here, I'm not experienced enough with magicians--I only occasionally group with them--to know ALL the areas that they're really good for. Chime in, please.

Danth

[Vexenu]

Here's some data:

Turgur's Insects - 3 sec cast, 250 mana
Malo - 5 sec cast, 350 mana
Paralyzing Earth - 2.5 sec cast, 100 mana
Chloroblast - 3 sec cast, 175 mana
Pox of Bertoxx - 5 sec cast, 430 mana
Ice Strike - 7 sec cast, 250 mana
Epic click - 9 sec cast, 0 mana
JBB - 8 sec cast, 0 mana

Why are none of these spells/items included in your astounding little math formula, since you claim at various points in the thread to be casting them regularly for the benefit of the group? Every time you stop to cast one of these spells and deviate from your Bane/E-bolt/canni/Torpor dance the Mage continues to chainsaw DPS mana-free. To even remain in the same ballpark with him you can literally only cast those four spells, and you require they always tick for full duration. You simply have an autistic obsession with the Shaman class and cannot admit that their excellent solo, duo and small group performance does not translate to them being a group DPS class or being especially useful in the specific context of joining a group with an existing Enc/Enc/Clr lineup.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here's some data:

Turgur's Insects - 3 sec cast, 250 mana
Malo - 5 sec cast, 350 mana
Paralyzing Earth - 2.5 sec cast, 100 mana
Chloroblast - 3 sec cast, 175 mana
Pox of Bertoxx - 5 sec cast, 430 mana
Ice Strike - 7 sec cast, 250 mana
Epic click - 9 sec cast, 0 mana
JBB - 8 sec cast, 0 mana

Why are none of these spells/items included in your astounding little math formula, since you claim at various points in the thread to be casting them regularly for the benefit of the group? Every time you stop to cast one of these spells and deviate from your Bane/E-bolt/canni/Torpor dance the Mage continues to chainsaw DPS mana-free. To even remain in the same ballpark with him you can literally only cast those four spells, and you require they always tick for full duration. You simply have an autistic obsession with the Shaman class and cannot admit that their excellent solo, duo and small group performance does not translate to them being a group DPS class or being especially useful in the specific context of joining a group with an existing Enc/Enc/Clr lineup.

I have already provided the actual data:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Please concede or show additional evidence.

You don't seem to realize that a group killing stuff every 36 seconds isn't going to be casting Malo, Slow, Root, etc. most of the time. And remember, people keep complaining about redundancy. In the Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric group, the Enchanters would be handling the root/slow anyway, so it's already covered! The Cleric is healing, so it's covered! The Shaman can just DPS away if the group needs them to:) But the Shaman can also do other things if the situation changes, which is why they are better. 27 DPS isn't going to make a group with 2x Enchanters much better. They are already shredding lol.

[Danth]

If the shaman's supposed to be on offense and he switches to rooting/slowing/healing it means something went wrong or the cleric's AFK. Put the mage in that environment and people are dying while he stands there looking pretty because he can't do jack to help. I don't think him bragging about his superior DPS while his groupmates are trying to arrange a rez is going to endear him to them! Much better for the magician to compare him and a shaman in a happy perfect fun time when nothing's wrong and nobody's in danger, stick to the thing the magician does best.

The velketor boots suffer badly in fast kills due to the slow cast speed--only get to use it once per on those 30 second kills. Burnt staff is probably better in that environment and the shaman bracer will out perform either probably. Fast pulls benefit the magician because fast kills make the pets' contribution proportionally greater and the magician has an inarguably superior pet. The shaman'll like slower pulls or longer kills where his damage over time spells and incredible mana recovery rate get the most mileage while the magician's sustainable damage doesn't actually increase and his burst leaves him out of commision a lot longer than the shaman's recovery takes.

Danth

[Vexenu]

Clearly, neither of you understand math.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If the shaman's supposed to be on offense and he switches to rooting/slowing/healing it means something went wrong or the cleric's AFK. Put the mage in that environment and people are dying while he stands there looking pretty because he can't do jack to help. I don't think him bragging about his superior DPS while his groupmates are trying to arrange a rez is going to endear him to them! Much better for the magician to compare him and a shaman in a happy perfect fun time when nothing's wrong and nobody's in danger, stick to the thing the magician does best.

The velketor boots suffer badly in fast kills due to the slow cast speed--only get to use it once per on those 30 second kills. Burnt staff is probably better in that environment and the shaman bracer will out perform either probably. Fast pulls benefit the magician because fast kills make the pets' contribution proportionally greater and the magician has an inarguably superior pet. The shaman'll like slower pulls or longer kills where his damage over time spells and incredible mana recovery rate get the most mileage while the magician's sustainable damage doesn't actually increase and his burst leaves him out of commision a lot longer than the shaman's recovery takes.

Danth

Well said.

Clearly, neither of you understand math.

As I said before, it is you who's math skills are lacking. My "napkin math" is matching the real in-game data:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

I just don't understand why people think it is difficult to math out this sort of thing. In video games the math and rules are fixed and cannot change unless you cheat, or the developers change something.

[Danth]

Clearly, neither of you understand math.

Don't look at me, I've been trying to avoid the napkin math this whole time. Got an exception to something I said lemme know and I'm glad to explain why I feel the way I do. I'll even get off here before 2 AM.

[PlsNoBan]

Here's some data:

Turgur's Insects - 3 sec cast, 250 mana
Malo - 5 sec cast, 350 mana
Paralyzing Earth - 2.5 sec cast, 100 mana
Chloroblast - 3 sec cast, 175 mana
Pox of Bertoxx - 5 sec cast, 430 mana
Ice Strike - 7 sec cast, 250 mana
Epic click - 9 sec cast, 0 mana
JBB - 8 sec cast, 0 mana

Why are none of these spells/items included in your astounding little math formula, since you claim at various points in the thread to be casting them regularly for the benefit of the group? Every time you stop to cast one of these spells and deviate from your Bane/E-bolt/canni/Torpor dance the Mage continues to chainsaw DPS mana-free. To even remain in the same ballpark with him you can literally only cast those four spells, and you require they always tick for full duration. You simply have an autistic obsession with the Shaman class and cannot admit that their excellent solo, duo and small group performance does not translate to them being a group DPS class or being especially useful in the specific context of joining a group with an existing Enc/Enc/Clr lineup.

You're obviously correct. There's just no reasoning with this idiot so.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're obviously correct. There's just no reasoning with this idiot so.

Incorrect.

The data is here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 . It's in game videos with full logs. It matches up with my "napkin math". You can parse the data yourself, and even double check that the data is correct by comparing the logs to the videos.

Please provide counter-data or admit you are wrong. You are the one being stubborn here:)

Again, the redundancy you keep complaining about means a Shaman wouldn't need to cast those spells. In the Mage/Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric scenario, heals/slows/roots are already covered by the Enchanters and Cleric, and you won't be maloing a mob that dies in 36 seconds. It's just a waste of mana and generally mobs that die this fast don't have high resists. You can see I don't get a resist in my video. Maloing the charmed pets will be infrequent. Malosini lasts about 20 minutes hehe. And if you DO need to Malo mobs, well that would effect the Mana and DPS of the Mage too, since they would be doing that lol.

If the group needs the Shaman to just sit there and DPS, the mana formulas for the Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric do not change by even 1 mana.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/X2zRv3xs3toAAAAd/time-to-nut-up-or-shut-up-get-ready.gif

Has DSM posted actual logs and parse yet or are we still watching videos of him solo and equate that to dps effectiveness in a fast killing group?

Working on dinner for the kids and will check in later but my guess is no.

DSM what you need to deliver:
-actual parses from an actual group
-high dps group
-you’re playing nadda but dps
-be as good or at least close to as a good as a mage (you and pet vs mage and pet)

Sadly I know this won’t be possible for you but I hope the exercise in trying and failing will help a concrete thinking fella like you see the light.

No posting solo fights.

That’s the challenge.

Will check in later.

[Troxx]

I just want to point how how you continue to move the goalposts.

Oh I can pretty much promise you we’ll see more of that.

I have a 60 shaman. I can make and buff my pet to max too. I have a full spell kit. And I can promise you he will fail miserably trying … or he just won’t and will submit “alternate facts” to support his agenda.

I am clairvoyant. Watch and see.

I just want him to try. He’ll fail but knowing him he will “do math” and prove he is right.

We all know this already. Let’s help an autistic fella expand his mind though?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://c.tenor.com/X2zRv3xs3toAAAAd/time-to-nut-up-or-shut-up-get-ready.gif

Has DSM posted actual logs and parse yet or are we still watching videos of him solo and equate that to dps effectiveness in a fast killing group?

Working on dinner for the kids and will check in later but my guess is no.

DSM what you need to deliver:
-actual parses from an actual group
-high dps group
-you’re playing nadda but dps
-be as good or at least close to as a good as a mage (you and pet vs mage and pet)

Sadly I know this won’t be possible for you but I hope the exercise in trying and failing will help a concrete thinking fella like you see the light.

No posting solo fights.

That’s the challenge.

Will check in later.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Here's the undeniable data. The ball is in your court:)

Your "can't be solo fights and must be in a group" requirement is nonsense, and unnecessary. It's easy to simulate, which I have done. I have provided real data using a Seb mob of equivalent level to Crypt mobs. You need to provide your own data now. If you still can't accept this, you are literally just being silly and stubborn. Remember that your own parses do not include logs, so we don't know what mobs you were fighting, how often you nuke, if your parser is accurate, etc.

I have videos and the raw logs, so you can parse the data yourself. You can download the logs via the link in the description of the videos. You can even ensure I am not cheating by comparing the logs to what's being displayed on screen.

[Troxx]

This whole thread is about a theoretical 4 man caster group. Everyone agrees this is at least a cleric and 2 enchanters charming … which is huge dps.

I challenged you to show me how a shaman can do meaningful dps vs a mage. Everyone except you knows the “utility” of the shaman is redundant.

The onus is on you to show that a shaman can add as much pew pew (or close to enough) as a mage.

You have thus far failed.

Please do a fast dps group and prove me otherwise.

Until then … well …

We all know.


I know you’ll fail. You have yet to know you’ll fail. This will be a learning point for you.

We need from you:

-parses
-objective data
-the above over a sustained period of time (1-2 hour minimum)
-be grouped with high dps characters (gotta compete man)
-evidence of shaman awesomeness we all know doesn’t exist.

This is all so stupid. We all know shamans are a stellar class. They cal solo shit nobody else can. They are perfect in duos and trios. It is such a good damn class.

Why do you have to despoil it all by being an idiot? Shamans are not a focused dps class and in a fast paced group they won’t fill a strictly dps role admirably.

We all know that. But if we are wrong … Fckin prove it.

Balls in your court

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/X2zRv3xs3toAAAAd/time-to-nut-up-or-shut-up-get-ready.gif

So far you’ve give nothing but you soloing a Jin shaman (literally the lowest level mob in seb) and napkin math.

Prove us all wrong. I dare and challenge you.

Sustained dps (an hour or 3) in a high level area of seb. You just focus on dps and prove what ya got sustained over time. Single or double parses need not apply … I can burn 200+ dps on cherry picked parses. Give us an hour of parses and parse the dps of the rest of your group.

I know you won’t.

#sad

[Troxx]

He’s backed into a corner he cannot possibly weasel out of.

Give us raw data.

Off to feed the kids …

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Here's the undeniable data. The ball is in your court:)

Your "can't be solo fights and must be in a group" requirement is nonsense, and unnecessary. It's easy to simulate, which I have done. I have provided real data using a Seb mob of equivalent level to Crypt mobs. You need to provide your own data now. If you still can't accept this, you are literally just being silly and stubborn. Remember that your own parses do not include logs, so we don't know what mobs you were fighting, how often you nuke, if your parser is accurate, etc.

I have videos and the raw logs, so you can parse the data yourself. You can download the logs via the link in the description of the videos. You can even ensure I am not cheating by comparing the logs to what's being displayed on screen.

I have video and log proof which can be crossed referenced. You cannot prove your logs were in a group, in crypt, or simply photoshopped. The ball is in your court now:) Give us the data that meets your own standards.

[Troxx]

Need more data for our collective “math” DSM

https://c.tenor.com/kq7AwhwAhBwAAAAd/we-need-some-evidence-steve-kornacki.gif

[Troxx]

Help us math at the graduate level of math you got from MIT …

All we need is evidence.

Ball’s in your court musafa

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You haven't looked at it lol, its clear from your long rambling nonsense posts.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=638

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/TOLq3GZTp4oAAAAC/tyson-liar.gif

It’s an analogy… I try not to think to concretely…

#challenge

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Just going to keep reposting the data lol. Click the link. The ball is in your court, you can't prove your data is even correct with your own standards.

Someone is flaming mad they are wrong lol.

[Troxx]

Regarding your disputable/undisputable jab, I can unfortunately predict where this is going. Once you fail to show that a shaman can keep up with respectable dps (or at least as good as you think you can) under these conditions I fully expect your next angle will to say that what I’ve provided (took all of 5 minutes to compile and another 5 to screenshot a jpg of) is “disputable”. I hope my prediction is wrong
.

I called it!

Page 64 post #632

I’m a Harry wizard!

https://c.tenor.com/vPE84gMCv4EAAAAd/harry-wizard.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Just going to keep reposting the data lol. Click the link. The ball is in your court, you can't prove your data is even correct with your own standards.

Someone is flaming mad they are wrong lol.

[Troxx]

I’m a Harry wizard

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Video and log proof for people who are interested. The truth has broke Troxx.

[Troxx]

This is fun. Dr DoucheRocket has yet to produce any parses!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Video and log proof. Troxx is too blinded by rage to realize parsing programs just use the logs lol. Since I have provided them, I can't cheat either, unlike yourself:) You can parse the logs yourself.

[Troxx]

We’re still soloing as a shaman not pretending to be dps in a group!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Video and log proof. Troxx is too blinded by rage to realize parsing programs just use the logs lol. Since I have provided them, I can't cheat either, unlike yourself:) You can parse the logs yourself.

[Troxx]

Challenge offered … but not accepted

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Challenge accepted and completed

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Troxx has zero counter data, because he can't prove his own data matches his own standards.

[Troxx]

You keep moving the bar man. Nobody in their right mind will insist shamans aren’t good at big ticket solo. I’ve done plenty myself.

Be a dps in a fast moving group. Post your results.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=63

This would parse the same in a group using your own 36 second kill average. A child would know this, but your rage at being proven wrong is intense right now. Cool off, come back, and learn.

[Troxx]

I will take you seriously when you provide some objective data that isn’t you soloing a level 40 frog or drawing comparisons to root rotting multiple mobs in tandem solo.

https://c.tenor.com/X2zRv3xs3toAAAAd/time-to-nut-up-or-shut-up-get-ready.gif

Seriously I challenge you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=63

This would parse the same in a group using your own 36 second kill average. A child would know this, but your rage at being proven wrong is intense right now. Cool off, come back, and learn.

[Troxx]

We all know you wont/can’t

[Troxx]

Fuck .. does this make me autistic???

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The funny thing is you haven't looked at the data:) I am parsing off a 49 seb mob, which is higher level than the trash in crypt. You would know this if you opened the link https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

I have video and log proof. You can cross reference the logs with the video. My evidence is far superior, and isn't suseptible to being photoshopped. You can't even prove your logs were in crypt or in a group lol. Nor can you prove the length of the group. We don't even know if your parser is working. Good job not matching your own standards.

[Vexenu]

So far you’ve give nothing but you soloing a Jin shaman (literally the lowest level mob in seb) and napkin math.


Starting a petition for an unclassic change to rename the "Froglok Jin Shaman" mob in Sebilis to the "Froglok D'sm Shaman", to commemorate this thread itself and to permanently highlight one obstinate autistic man's outrageous, unflagging commitment to playing a DPS Shaman in Seb.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol when they get proven wrong they explode in rage. Sorry Troxx's data doesn't match his own standards.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 the data for people who want to learn.

Mages only have about a 27 DPS lead over Shamans, assuming no clickies, and they are both in a group killing mobs every 36 seconds.

[Troxx]

I will take you seriously when you provide some objective data that isn’t you soloing a level 40 frog or drawing comparisons to root rotting multiple mobs in tandem solo.

https://c.tenor.com/X2zRv3xs3toAAAAd/time-to-nut-up-or-shut-up-get-ready.gif

Seriously I challenge you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol when they get proven wrong they explode in rage. Sorry Troxx's data doesn't match his own standards.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 the data for people who want to learn.

Mages only have about a 27 DPS lead over Shamans, assuming no clickies, and they are both in a group killing mobs every 36 seconds.

[Troxx]

So no objective data yet?

What are you scared of?

C’mon man you asked of me!

[Troxx]

I will take you seriously when you provide some objective data that isn’t you soloing a level 40 frog or drawing comparisons to root rotting multiple mobs in tandem solo.

https://c.tenor.com/X2zRv3xs3toAAAAd/time-to-nut-up-or-shut-up-get-ready.gif

Seriously I challenge you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol when they get proven wrong they explode in rage. Sorry Troxx's data doesn't match his own standards.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 the data for people who want to learn.

Mages only have about a 27 DPS lead over Shamans, assuming no clickies, and they are both in a group killing mobs every 36 seconds.

[Troxx]

DSM is out of talking points and too pussy shit to actually test it out

https://c.tenor.com/GZXCYM6soSAAAAAC/so-sad-oh-no.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx's data can't match his own standards because he can't prove if he was in a group, where it was, how long his group lasted, if his parser is working, etc. It could be photoshopped for all we know.

Troxx wants you to believe mobs somehow act differently if you kill them with a group.

The ball is in Troxx's court, but he is too cowardly to post better evidence. He will instead create standards his own data doesn't follow, and will then blame you for not following them. He is backed into a corner, so silly semantics like this is all he has left. He will continue to create new standards to try and discredit any evidence he disagrees with.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 here is objective video and log proof that can be cross referenced. For people who want to learn. You can parse the logs yourself, and compare the log data to the video to prove it has not been altered in any way.

Mages only have about a 27 DPS lead over Shamans, assuming no clickies, and they are both in a group killing mobs every 36 seconds. The data I showed is undeniable proof.

[Kich867]

You're all wrong. Best 4 squad is definitely Bard / Ranger / Warrior / Necro.

[Troxx]

stuff and such and things


Still waiting on you to post meaningful whatevers

Until then its all smoke and mirrors.

Do you not accept the challenge?

Sad ... i thought a mathematician such as yourself would revel in this possibility ...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Still waiting on you to post meaningful whatevers

Until then its all smoke and mirrors.

Do you not accept the challenge?

The only smoke and mirrors are your "parses" that could be photoshopped.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 Objective video and log evidence here! The logs can be cross reference to the videos, and parsed yourself if you want to double check everything.

You could do the same, but you won't, because you know the data will be the same.

[Troxx]

#NoParses

#NoNothing

Really ... get off your fat autistic ass and prove me wrong.

But you won't ... all talk no "Math"

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only smoke and mirrors are your "parses" that could be photoshopped.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 Objective video and log evidence here! The logs can be cross reference to the videos, and parsed yourself if you want to double check everything.

You could do the same, but you won't, because you know the data will be the same.

Troxx is just really angry right now. He will hopefully calm down and stop rage posting. Then he can admit he is wrong, or provide better evidence. I would be happy to be proven wrong with objective data that isn't possibly photoshopped.

[Troxx]

Why are you posting videos of yourself soloing mobs near seb zone line?

Are you not a shaman? Raid geared?

Why are you avoiding the challenge?

Scared?

Get in a fast moving group and do some dps. Parse it and show us. Give us data.

Or scared?

Impotent?

C'mon man we are 70 pages into this bull shit.

Put up or shut up!

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/X2zRv3xs3toAAAAd/time-to-nut-up-or-shut-up-get-ready.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only smoke and mirrors are your "parses" that could be photoshopped. You have no proof your own parses match the supposed "challenge" you are giving me lol.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 Objective video and log evidence here! The logs can be cross referenced to the videos, and parsed yourself if you want to double check everything.

You could do the same, but you won't, because you know the data will be the same.

The level 49 https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Sebilite_Golem is a good analogy to Crypt mobs. Crypt mobs are all high 40s. Generally only the named mobs are 50+, but again you haven't provided any data to support what you were fighting in your logs (if anything).

It is your turn to "nut up or shut up" lol. It is a pretty telling sign you lost the debate when the only thing you can do is whine because you have no evidence and the other person has objective evidence that can be cross referenced. Seriously, why do you think you can keep demanding evidence from me, but you don't need to provide anything? It's just pathetic. Please provide evidence in kind, or admit you are wrong.

[Troxx]

Just spent some time on my 60 sham Jolav with epic and bane and all that ...

Shamans are good at soloing stuff but the dps is bad man ... bad

Sorry the burden of proof is on you now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Got your proof right here! Objective videos and logs. The logs can be cross referenced to the video, and you can parse it yourself if you want to double check.

Sorry you have nothing to counter it.

[Troxx]

Still putting up logs of you soloing frogs/whatever?

No. Parses of you in a fast group.

Are you scared to try?

What the fuck is going on?

Why won't you actually try it?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Got your proof right here! Objective videos and logs. The logs can be cross referenced to the video, and you can parse it yourself if you want to double check.

The only scared person is yourself. You put up images of logs, with no evidence to prove you even got those logs in a group hehe.

I've provided plenty of evidence. You have provided basically nothing.

It's time to nut up or shut up. Bring the evidence, or admit defeat.

[Troxx]

just youtube videos of mediocre play

OBJECTIVE DATA

PARSES

FROM GROUPS

you arent showing me a damn thing i can't do with my trash geared alt 60 shamain

C'mon man you got 300 posts in this thread

put up or shut up

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Got your proof right here! Objective videos and logs. The logs can be cross referenced to the video, and you can parse it yourself if you want to double check.

The only scared person is yourself. You put up images of logs, with no evidence to prove you even got those logs in a group hehe.

I've provided plenty of evidence. You have provided basically nothing.

It's time to nut up or shut up. Bring the evidence, or admit defeat.

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/X2zRv3xs3toAAAAd/time-to-nut-up-or-shut-up-get-ready.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Got your proof right here! Objective videos and logs. The logs can be cross referenced to the video, and you can parse it yourself if you want to double check.

The only scared person is yourself. You put up images of logs, with no evidence to prove you even got those logs in a group hehe.

I've provided plenty of evidence. You have provided basically nothing.

It's time to nut up or shut up. Bring the evidence, or admit defeat.

[Troxx]

Ok man.

We get it.

You're either to lazy or too pussy shit to provide real data.

Keep soloing random seb zone in mobs by yourself, not in a group ... doing dot damage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Got your proof right here! Objective videos and logs. The logs can be cross referenced to the video, and you can parse it yourself if you want to double check.

You are scared and are unable to provide real data other than images of logs that could be photoshopped for all we know.

[Troxx]

Remember, the goal here is to see how much dps a shaman can do in a fast paced, fast killing full group. Mine included charm pet (most of the time), another mage with epic, and a tunare/ST monk other than myself.

That is the scope of this topic, this thread, and therefore the burden of proof is to show us how great your shaman is at doing it.

[Troxx]

Are you just scared to do it?

We're on page 72 and yoiu're just posting napkin math and videos of you soloing mobs at the zone line of seb with bane/pox.

Why won't you actually do it?

This thread isn't about what class can solo easy zone line crap the best.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Got your proof right here! Objective videos and logs. The logs can be cross referenced to the video, and you can parse it yourself if you want to double check.

The only scared person is yourself. I put in the time and provided undisputable evidence.

You have a 60 Shaman and a 60 Mage. Just make a few videos and post the logs. It's pretty simple. You were the one who said Crypt, and I provided a mob of equal power to Crypt. It is not my fault you think the Crypt mobs are drastically different.

[Troxx]

DSM has given up. Copy/paste the same BS.

Nothing but videos of you (shaman) SOLOING trash (not relevant to this thread) and a raw dog logs of 1 fight with a 40 frog.

No data

You got nothing

Where's your "math" now?

[Troxx]

https://c.tenor.com/X2zRv3xs3toAAAAd/time-to-nut-up-or-shut-up-get-ready.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Got your proof right here! Objective videos and logs. The logs can be cross referenced to the video, and you can parse it yourself if you want to double check.

Troxx has lost the battle so hard he is rage posting nonsense. He asked for Sebilis Crypt level mobs, and then is complaining about it.

The math and data will be here for people who want to learn. Troxx clearly doesn't want to actually know the truth, he just wants to be right at all costs. Too bad he is wrong.

He needs to tell us why he thinks the parses will be vastly different. He hasn't even done that.

[Troxx]

copy/paste fail

https://c.tenor.com/QBx8yT97cQoAAAAS/babababa-captain.gif

#CaptainOfTheFailBoat

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Got your proof right here! Objective videos and logs. The logs can be cross referenced to the video, and you can parse it yourself if you want to double check.

Troxx needs to tell us why he thinks the parses will be vastly different between my evidence and his silly challenge. He can't even do that, because there is no logical explaination he can make.

[Gloomlord]

That moment when you checkmate someone, but he roars to you constantly that the game isn't over yet.

Es ist vorbei, Death. You've lost the game. Time to pack it in.

[Troxx]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

Got your proof right here! Objective videos and logs. The logs can be cross referenced to the video, and you can parse it yourself if you want to double check.

Troxx needs to tell us why he thinks the parses will be vastly different between my evidence and his silly challenge. He can't even do that, because there is no logical explaination he can make.

You still haven't given us what we need for this thread

Are you scared or just incapable?

Do it; parse it; post it!

(you won't)

[Karanis]

The only smoke and mirrors are your "parses" that could be photoshopped.

This man really said the GamParse post might be photoshopped when he's posting PLAIN TEXT logs that you can LITERALLY just change the text of.

18497

[Karanis]

Also refuses to group OR do an extended session on video, oof.

[Keebz]

The fact is 4 casters at 60 should be killing cool targets, not root rotting trash is Seb. It's just this weird struggle to prove... something. The guy needs help.

What do you think the hardest mob 4 beefy casters could take down, and what's the comp?

Epic mobs like Ixi, General, etc all seem doable. I wonder if you could do KD or Fay.

[PatChapp]

No good pets for fay, unfortunately.

[Toxigen]

https://c.tenor.com/X2zRv3xs3toAAAAd/time-to-nut-up-or-shut-up-get-ready.gif

Love me some Woody. Just watched Midway for the first time last night.

Also this is now officially the worst fucking thread I've ever seen in the history of elf forums. Y'all mfkers need jesus.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This man really said the GamParse post might be photoshopped when he's posting PLAIN TEXT logs that you can LITERALLY just change the text of.

18497

Except I posted videos too, so you can look at every line of text that gets generated and compare it to the logs. Are you an idiot?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638

The real data for people who want to learn. The data can be compared to the video, unlike an image that can be photoshopped.

Troxx is too scared to post real data lol.

The fact is 4 casters at 60 should be killing cool targets, not root rotting trash is Seb. It's just this weird struggle to prove... something. The guy needs help.

What do you think the hardest mob 4 beefy casters could take down, and what's the comp?

Epic mobs like Ixi, General, etc all seem doable. I wonder if you could do KD or Fay.

You missed the part where Troxx asked for Seb Crypt trash mob logs:) Shaman would be better at Ixi for Malo and Slow.

The only stuggle here is how many people can't do basic math, or admit they are wrong. It's pretty embarassing honestly.

Also refuses to group OR do an extended session on video, oof.

Yeah no kidding. Troxx hasn't done that, and is too scared to. He has no proof so far of this, other than parse images that could be photoshopped, and are missing a bunch of data.

[Toxigen]

pretty sure DSM can get this bitch to 100 pages

[DeathsSilkyMist]

pretty sure DSM can get this bitch to 100 pages

Nah, that's going to be Troxx and friends complaining because they don't have good data, and can't accept the truth or basic math.

The thread should have been over here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 , but the truth has thrown them into a rage they can't get out of, and must try and hide the truth with silly troll posts.

[Ripqozko]

He literally will post after everything because he needs the last word to “win”. This will keep
Going.

[cyxthryth]

Nah, that's going to be Troxx and friends complaining because they don't have good data, and can't accept the truth or basic math.

The thread should have been over here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 , but the truth has thrown them into a rage they can't get out of, and must try and hide the truth with silly troll posts.

"Silly troll posts" huh? I see where this is going. ;)

You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.
Your concession in silence was accepted. :)

I see you haven't quite given up on this current thread just yet though. *chuckle* Take as much time as you need. You will certainly move on to hyper-focus on another thread/topic in which you'll continue to demonstrate your seemingly-apparent autism to all neurotypicals who encounter your posts.
I can only speak for myself, but your inevitable concession in silence for this thread is accepted in advance. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Here is Troxx's data for reference. It is using his own standards of being in a group for an extended period of time. He is doing... 79 DPS (without damage shield). That is exactly what I calculated in the math. It is the precise number. He is using an average of 2 nukes per encounter, which is why his DPS is 40. His pet DPS is lower than the individual parses he showed earlier because there is DPS time lost when controlling the pet. This just means his group was pulling slower, because he can average 2 nukes per encounter, and he said he was never out of mana. This group mathematically isn't killing one mob every 36 seconds without pause. If you are landing 4 Shocks of steel per minute, you are spending 1100 mana per minute, while only regaining 210 mana. This is assuming you have C2 and are meditating 5 ticks per minute. You need to be standing for at least 24 seconds since each cast is 6 seconds. From his individual parses his group is not killing everything in 20 seconds or less. The average time was 36 seconds. Killing the mobs in 20 seconds or less on average would be the only way he could get 40 DPS per kill on a single nuke, but he hasn't provided kill speed data for this group.

He is going to try and claim the parser is wrong and is undervaluing his data. If that's the case, why should we trust any of his data, or GamParse to begin with? He is going to try and claim the Monk's DPS is lower (which is correct since they are pulling), but what he fails to understand is HE IS THE ONE DOING THE PARSING. He is going to get all of his own data (pet and nuke data), because he is always in camp lol. He is assuming that if the Monk's DPS is lower, his must be too. It's not logically the same. He is just sitting in camp, doing his best DPS job he can, and he is getting all of this own logs since he is parsing. He isn't pulling or doing anything else.

The truth is GamParse is working fine, but Troxx is in denial. This is really sad and embarrassing. Now since this is just an image, it could be photoshopped. But I doubt it, since it gives out the data he is claiming is incorrect.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 - Here is real objective data for DPS comparisons between a Mage and a Shaman, using a level 49 Sebilis Mob. A Shaman can do 55.2 DPS, a Mage can do 82.7 with damage shield. The difference is only 27.5 DPS. This is a level 60 Mage vs. a level 60 Shaman, no clickies or mana buffs, and assuming the group is killing a mob every 36 seconds.

"Silly troll posting"

Wow. Sorry you are so mad lol. You can choose to believe that is what happened in the thread you linked:) Sorry you don't got Warder loot, silly.

[cyxthryth]

Wow. Sorry you are so mad lol. You can choose to believe that is what happened in the thread you linked:) Sorry you don't got Warder loot, silly.

Your multiple apologies are accepted alongside your silent concessions, both prior and pending. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your multiple apologies are accepted alongside your silent concessions, both prior and pending. :)

Still mad. Still bad. Still sad. No Warder loot either. Essence Lens is great though, and better than most Warder loot. So you will be fine.

[cyxthryth]

Still mad. Still bad. Still sad. No Warder loot either. Essence Lens is great though, and better than most Warder loot. So you will be fine.

You do not know who I am, neither in-game nor IRL, you do not know what loot I have and you do not know how I feel. You may choose to type whatever you wish, it does not change those facts. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You do not know who I am, neither in-game nor IRL, and you do not know how I feel. You may choose to type whatever you wish, it does not change that fact. :)

If you don't care, then why bother posting false nonsense?

Clearly you are still mad from that other thread (which is 4 months old at this point), which is why you are bringing it up lol.

Seriously it is ok. Essence Lens is better than most of the Warder loot you would have gotten. Only the most dedicated of raiders are getting SoM or Fungi Robe, and that is honestly only a few people. None of the other loot really matters. You could argue gnome mask if you are a fashion fanatic, but that is besides the point.

EDIT: I am not going to be responding to any more posts about this silly nonsense involving the other thread with you cyxthryth. Either you are attempting to troll (poorly), or you have some weird grudge and felt the need to bring up a 4 month old thread that isn't even related to this one. Not a good look either way. Please stick to RnF if you want to make a thread about it:)

[cyxthryth]

If you don't care, then why bother posting false nonsense?


I did not state whether I cared about any particular thing, please elaborate? What false nonsense?


Clearly you are still mad from that other thread (which is 4 months old at this point), which is why you are bringing it up lol.


You do not know who I am, neither in-game nor IRL, you do not know what loot I have and you do not know how I feel. You may choose to type whatever you wish, it does not change those facts. :)

[cyxthryth]

silly nonsense

Sounds familiar. :) Concession accepted. :)

"Silly troll posts" huh? I see where this is going. ;)

You called me "silly" when you were backed into a corner by my replies to you on the below thread too, and you stopped replying (like a little bitch): https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401629&page=37.
Your concession in silence was accepted. :)

I see you haven't quite given up on this current thread just yet though. *chuckle* Take as much time as you need. You will certainly move on to hyper-focus on another thread/topic in which you'll continue to demonstrate your seemingly-apparent autism to all neurotypicals who encounter your posts.
I can only speak for myself, but your inevitable concession in silence for this thread is accepted in advance. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Here is Troxx's data for reference. It is using his own standards of being in a group for an extended period of time. He is doing... 79 DPS (without damage shield). It is the precise number I calculated. His DPS is 40 simply because he is nuking more per encounter, but math-wise this also means they aren't pulling mobs that fast. His previous encounter data shows an average kill speed of 36 seconds, and he has yet to provide average kill speed for this data set.

There are two ways you can interpret this data:

1. You can believe Troxx, who is claiming his DPS parser is undervaluing the data by 30%. If that is true, then honestly all of the data he has posted so far is meaningless because his parser is wrong, and he needs to get a better parser.

2. GamParse did it's job and parsed Troxx's DPS correctly. The reason why he thinks the data is undervalued by 30% is because his similarly equipped Monk can do 70 DPS when he isn't pulling. That is where he is getting the 30% number, 70 x 0.7 = 49. The flaw in Troxx's logic is the Monk is only losing 30% DPS because he is pulling, NOT because the parser is wrong. Troxx isn't pulling, he is just sitting in camp DPSing and parsing. He is not losing any DPS, so there is no 30% loss for him. He is basically falsely assuming that if the Monk loses 30% DPS, everybody else is losing 30% DPS too. The parser is correct, and Troxx is wrong.

Either way, he basically has nothing to back up his silly points. The burden of proof now lies on him to either provide better data, or prove his parser is undervaluing all DPS by 30%, and not just the Monk who is pulling lol.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 - Here is real objective data for DPS comparisons between a Mage and a Shaman, using a level 49 Sebilis Mob. A Shaman can do 55.2 DPS, a Mage can do 82.7 with damage shield. The difference is only 27.5 DPS. This is a level 60 Mage vs. a level 60 Shaman, no clickies or mana buffs, and assuming the group is killing a mob every 36 seconds.

[cyxthryth]

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Here is Troxx's data for reference. It is using his own standards of being in a group for an extended period of time. He is doing... 79 DPS (without damage shield). It is the precise number I calculated.

There are two ways you can interpret this data:

1. You can believe Troxx, who is claiming his DPS parser is undervaluing the data by 30%. If that is true, then honestly all of the data he has posted so far is meaningless because his parser is wrong, and he needs to get a better parser.

2. GamParse did it's job and parsed Troxx's DPS correctly. The reason why he thinks the data is undervalued by 30% is because his similarly equipped Monk can do 70 DPS when he isn't pulling. That is where he is getting the 30% number, 70 x 0.7 = 49. The flaw in Troxx's logic is the Monk is only losing 30% DPS because he is pulling, NOT because the parser is wrong. Troxx isn't pulling, he is just sitting in camp DPSing and parsing. He is not losing any DPS, so there is no 30% loss for him. He is basically falsely assuming that if the Monk loses 30% DPS, everybody else is losing 30% DPS too. The parser is correct, and Troxx is wrong.

Either way, he basically has nothing to back up his silly points. The burden of proof now lies on him to either provide better data, or prove his parser is undervaluing all DPS by 30%, and not just the Monk who is pulling lol.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 - Here is real objective data for DPS comparisons between a Mage and a Shaman, using a level 49 Sebilis Mob. A Shaman can do 55.2 DPS, a Mage can do 82.7 with damage shield. The difference is only 27.5 DPS. This is a level 60 Mage vs. a level 60 Shaman, no clickies or mana buffs, and assuming the group is killing a mob every 36 seconds.


I see you haven't quite given up on this current thread just yet though. *chuckle* Take as much time as you need. You will certainly move on to hyper-focus on another thread/topic in which you'll continue to demonstrate your seemingly-apparent autism to all neurotypicals who encounter your posts.
I can only speak for myself, but your inevitable concession in silence for this thread is accepted in advance. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Here is Troxx's data for reference. It is using his own standards of being in a group for an extended period of time. He is doing... 79 DPS (without damage shield). It is the precise number I calculated. His DPS is 40 simply because he is nuking more per encounter, but math-wise this also means they aren't pulling mobs that fast. His previous encounter data shows an average kill speed of 36 seconds, and he has yet to provide average kill speed for this data set.

There are two ways you can interpret this data:

1. You can believe Troxx, who is claiming his DPS parser is undervaluing the data by 30%. If that is true, then honestly all of the data he has posted so far is meaningless because his parser is wrong, and he needs to get a better parser.

2. GamParse did it's job and parsed Troxx's DPS correctly. The reason why he thinks the data is undervalued by 30% is because his similarly equipped Monk can do 70 DPS when he isn't pulling. That is where he is getting the 30% number, 70 x 0.7 = 49. The flaw in Troxx's logic is the Monk is only losing 30% DPS because he is pulling, NOT because the parser is wrong. Troxx isn't pulling, he is just sitting in camp DPSing and parsing. He is not losing any DPS, so there is no 30% loss for him. He is basically falsely assuming that if the Monk loses 30% DPS, everybody else is losing 30% DPS too. The parser is correct, and Troxx is wrong.

Either way, he basically has nothing to back up his silly points. The burden of proof now lies on him to either provide better data, or prove his parser is undervaluing all DPS by 30%, and not just the Monk who is pulling lol.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 - Here is real objective data for DPS comparisons between a Mage and a Shaman, using a level 49 Sebilis Mob. A Shaman can do 55.2 DPS, a Mage can do 82.7 with damage shield. The difference is only 27.5 DPS. This is a level 60 Mage vs. a level 60 Shaman, no clickies or mana buffs, and assuming the group is killing a mob every 36 seconds.

This is the undisputable data, using Troxx's data too. Please ignore the trolls like cyxthryth.

[cyxthryth]

This is the undisputable data, using Troxx's data too. Please ignore the trolls like cyxthryth.

You may choose to call me a troll, but that's just you name-calling. I have only posted facts, that does not make me a troll.

You may feel however you choose to feel about it and post whatever you'd like to post, it will not change these facts.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Here is Troxx's data for reference. It is using his own standards of being in a group for an extended period of time. He is doing... 79 DPS (without damage shield). It is the precise number I calculated. His DPS is 40 simply because he is nuking more per encounter, but math-wise this also means they aren't pulling mobs that fast. His previous encounter data shows an average kill speed of 36 seconds, and he has yet to provide average kill speed for this data set.

There are two ways you can interpret this data:

1. You can believe Troxx, who is claiming his DPS parser is undervaluing the data by 30%. If that is true, then honestly all of the data he has posted so far is meaningless because his parser is wrong, and he needs to get a better parser.

2. GamParse did it's job and parsed Troxx's DPS correctly. The reason why he thinks the data is undervalued by 30% is because his similarly equipped Monk can do 70 DPS when he isn't pulling. That is where he is getting the 30% number, 70 x 0.7 = 49. The flaw in Troxx's logic is the Monk is only losing 30% DPS because he is pulling, NOT because the parser is wrong. Troxx isn't pulling, he is just sitting in camp DPSing and parsing. He is not losing any DPS, so there is no 30% loss for him. He is basically falsely assuming that if the Monk loses 30% DPS, everybody else is losing 30% DPS too. The parser is correct, and Troxx is wrong.

Either way, he basically has nothing to back up his silly points. The burden of proof now lies on him to either provide better data, or prove his parser is undervaluing all DPS by 30%, and not just the Monk who is pulling lol.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 - Here is real objective data for DPS comparisons between a Mage and a Shaman, using a level 49 Sebilis Mob. A Shaman can do 55.2 DPS, a Mage can do 82.7 with damage shield. The difference is only 27.5 DPS. This is a level 60 Mage vs. a level 60 Shaman, no clickies or mana buffs, and assuming the group is killing a mob every 36 seconds.

This is the undisputable data, using Troxx's data too. Please do not listen to the trolls, they have no counter evidence.

[cyxthryth]

Please do not listen to the trolls, they have no counter evidence.

You may choose to call me a troll, but that's just you name-calling. I have only posted facts, that does not make me a troll.

You may feel however you choose to feel about it and post whatever you'd like to post, it will not change these facts.

[Troxx]

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Here is Troxx's data for reference. It is using his own standards of being in a group for an extended period of time. He is doing... 79 DPS.

Quote my entire post or not at all. I told you it gets buggy compiling lots of fights and everyone’s dps was artificially reduced by about 30%. I was doing 79dps no more than Grandmaster (15/18 tunare fist and 15/20 sleepers fist) was doing 48dps.

Do not quote me out of context.

You are grasping at straws and literally flailing at this point.

(Well figuratively flailing. We all know you’re a concrete thinker so I guess the obvious should be specified)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Here is Troxx's data for reference. It is using his own standards of being in a group for an extended period of time. He is doing... 79 DPS (without damage shield). It is the precise number I calculated. His DPS is 40 simply because he is nuking more per encounter, but math-wise this also means they aren't pulling mobs that fast. His previous encounter data shows an average kill speed of 36 seconds, and he has yet to provide average kill speed for this data set.

There are two ways you can interpret this data:

1. You can believe Troxx, who is claiming his DPS parser is undervaluing the data by 30%. If that is true, then honestly all of the data he has posted so far is meaningless because his parser is wrong, and he needs to get a better parser.

2. GamParse did it's job and parsed Troxx's DPS correctly. The reason why he thinks the data is undervalued by 30% is because his similarly equipped Monk can do 70 DPS when he isn't pulling. That is where he is getting the 30% number, 70 x 0.7 = 49. The flaw in Troxx's logic is the Monk is only losing 30% DPS because he is pulling, NOT because the parser is wrong. Troxx isn't pulling, he is just sitting in camp DPSing and parsing. He is not losing any DPS, so there is no 30% loss for him. He is basically falsely assuming that if the Monk loses 30% DPS, everybody else is losing 30% DPS too. The parser is correct, and Troxx is wrong.

Either way, he basically has nothing to back up his silly points. The burden of proof now lies on him to either provide better data, or prove his parser is undervaluing all DPS by 30%, and not just the Monk who is pulling lol.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 - Here is real objective data for DPS comparisons between a Mage and a Shaman, using a level 49 Sebilis Mob. A Shaman can do 55.2 DPS, a Mage can do 82.7 with damage shield. The difference is only 27.5 DPS. This is a level 60 Mage vs. a level 60 Shaman, no clickies or mana buffs, and assuming the group is killing a mob every 36 seconds.

These are the facts. If you believe your own data is faulty Troxx, please provide better data. The burden of proof is on yourself. You are clearly wrong about how your parser works, since I can figure out where you got the 30% value from.

[Troxx]

These are the facts. If you believe your own data is faulty Troxx, please provide better data.

I already gave you individual fights broken out from that bugged compile …

Do you not read?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I already gave you individual fights broken out from that bugged compile …

Do you not read?

I did read, and those also came out to 82 DPS lol. You aren't going to be sustaining 144 DPS on nukes because you are literally spamming nukes. You don't have the mana. A Shaman could also increase their DPS on an individual fight by spending more mana.

If the parse is bugged, why are you posting it at all? That means the data is bad.

[Troxx]

Yeah DSM will push this bitch to 100 pages

This is hilarious

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://images4.imagebam.com/94/02/9b/MECCRK4_o.png

Here is Troxx's data for reference. It is using his own standards of being in a group for an extended period of time. He is doing... 79 DPS (without damage shield). It is the precise number I calculated. His DPS is 40 simply because he is nuking more per encounter, but math-wise this also means they aren't pulling mobs that fast. His previous encounter data shows an average kill speed of 36 seconds, and he has yet to provide average kill speed for this data set.

There are two ways you can interpret this data:

1. You can believe Troxx, who is claiming his DPS parser is undervaluing the data by 30%. If that is true, then honestly all of the data he has posted so far is meaningless because his parser is wrong, and he needs to get a better parser.

2. GamParse did it's job and parsed Troxx's DPS correctly. The reason why he thinks the data is undervalued by 30% is because his similarly equipped Monk can do 70 DPS when he isn't pulling. That is where he is getting the 30% number, 70 x 0.7 = 49. The flaw in Troxx's logic is the Monk is only losing 30% DPS because he is pulling, NOT because the parser is wrong. Troxx isn't pulling, he is just sitting in camp DPSing and parsing. He is not losing any DPS, so there is no 30% loss for him. He is basically falsely assuming that if the Monk loses 30% DPS, everybody else is losing 30% DPS too. The parser is correct, and Troxx is wrong.

Either way, he basically has nothing to back up his silly points. The burden of proof now lies on him to either provide better data, or prove his parser is undervaluing all DPS by 30%, and not just the Monk who is pulling lol.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3497117&postcount=638 - Here is real objective data for DPS comparisons between a Mage and a Shaman, using a level 49 Sebilis Mob. A Shaman can do 55.2 DPS, a Mage can do 82.7 with damage shield. The difference is only 27.5 DPS. This is a level 60 Mage vs. a level 60 Shaman, no clickies or mana buffs, and assuming the group is killing a mob every 36 seconds.

The ball is in Troxx's court. He claims his data is bad. If that is true, I have hard evidence via videos and logs, and he has nothing. The only people keeping this thread alive are Troxx and friends. Either provide better data, or concede.