Questioning GM Decisions

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Barkingturtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Between the cheating, half-assed punishments, and disdain for dissenting opinions, well, new players should be scared of this server. And frankly, as a member of a community one has a responsibility to question the decisions of its leaders when those decisions are, for whatever reason, unpredictable and inconsistent.

Most of the dissent is taking place in this context. The "WIPE IT CLEAN" crowd, perhaps goes overboard but most people are discontent with the fact that the rule that everyone has followed when they "Agreed to the Project 1999 EULA" was null and void for this case due to an inconsistency in the very philosophy of the server staff at large.

As mentioned, previous instances in which players or entities were reprimanded for similar reasons resulted in public knowledge and ridicule well beyond what should have occurred, according to this thread. That was no healthier to the server than what is being exclaimed now, yet it went on for months via thread tags, posts, and in game. This is the same thing on a larger scale, affecting more people, and now it's no longer okay? The problem people have is that their friends, guildmates, groupmates, forum buddies, etc betrayed their trust. Sure it's over pixels but it's still unseeming of a server that promotes fairness to have a rampant problem that people wan to push under the rug.

I'm for quelling the loudmouths that are shouting WIPE IT CLEAN, but beyond that you should expect dissent. I don't see anything wrong with that whether the opinion is in the majority or minority. Transparency is important.

Actual edit: ONLY private discourse involving such a public matter would not promote transparency or trust, especially at this point. Due to the fact that the population at large is not getting a master list of everyone that was suspended, it should not come as a surprise that people are voicing disapproval and even saying they don't want to stick around because they're not sure whether their groupmmate is a cheater or not. As mentioned by some, this is a fairly huge deal as the covenant of trust was broken between the players who "Accepted the Terms of Agreement of the P99 EULA" and those that decided to ignore it.

[booter]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, we know you have this fairness crusade to get TR raid suspended for two weeks, but that really isn't the topic of this thread at all. In fact, you're proving the OP's point by not going through the proper channels for it.

This thread is about HOW/WHERE you go about questioning GM decisions and how that affects the overall health of the server - it is not the place to actually DO that.

Start a new thread for this discussion if you honestly want it to go anywhere, instead of cluttering up this surprisingly constructive thread.

Originally Posted by Barkingturtle

Personally, I won't participate in a server where cheaters are allowed to keep playing, nor will I participate in discussions where I am selectively censored in order to dupe prospective players into joining what they think is a server not suffering these ills.

The cheaters who will be joining us again soon won't be cheating anymore. They'll be caught and permanently removed if they do it again, since we know the staff can detect it. Does everyone agree that they should be able to play again? No. Are they going to be? Yes. Were there more variables to the staff's decision than most players probably realize? Most definitely.

[Demetrium]

Originally Posted by Barkingturtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I read the first post. That's all. Here is what I think of it:

Between the cheating, half-assed punishments, and disdain for dissenting opinions, well, new players should be scared of this server. And frankly, as a member of a community one has a responsibility to question the decisions of its leaders when those decisions are, for whatever reason, unpredictable and inconsistent. Of course, they've said before that this is their place and theirs alone, players be damned, but that rings a bit hollow when multitudes of cheaters go on playing because they've become an entity too big to fail. Like CitiGroup, but with more back acne.

Personally, I won't participate in a server where cheaters are allowed to keep playing, nor will I participate in discussions where I am selectively censored in order to dupe prospective players into joining what they think is a server not suffering these ills.

This thread is as vile a piece of propaganda as it accuses others of perpetrating. It is blatant trolling and should be moved to RnF else it is lent credibility. I would question why it hasn't been moved already, but I'm not sure to whom I would pose the query without offending Hasbin's gentle sensibilities.

[yaaaflow]

Originally Posted by Barkingturtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Personally, I won't participate in a server where cheaters are allowed to keep playing, nor will I participate in discussions where I am selectively censored in order to dupe prospective players into joining what they think is a server not suffering these ills.

So just out of interest, shouldn't everyone who agrees with the above have been mad about this and quit like, more than a year ago? I mean just as a couple examples (and I like and respect both people I'm using as examples fwiw) Jeremy gets caught 2 boxing, is suspended and back playing about a month later. Koota gets caught using SEQ to track for his guild, is back playing a couple months later. Both of these happened > 1 year ago.

The GMs have shown leniency to people caught cheating in the past, is this so different? Seems to me the punishment handed out to the cheaters in this case is as or more severe than given in the two cases listed above.

[Barkingturtle]

Originally Posted by booter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The cheaters who will be joining us again soon won't be cheating anymore. They'll be caught and permanently removed if they do it again, since we know the staff can detect it.

We know the staff could detect it. Right now we see announced on the front page that they can't at present. In any event, we don't know that future offenders will be banned, because the precedent isn't that. It's the opposite.

Originally Posted by booter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Does everyone agree that they should be able to play again? No. Are they going to be? Yes. Were there more variables to the staff's decision than most players probably realize? Most definitely.

The other variables? Those are what trouble me. There should be no other variables. This has always been THEIR server, furiously so when defending unpopular decisions. Now they catch hundreds of accounts perverting THEIR server and, well? Suddenly the cheaters aren't the server's detriment, but rather the users disgusted by their displayed lack of testicular fortitude? Suddenly in-game subversiveness is less harmful to the server than out of game candor?

Bullshit.

The main variable is good ol' fashioned hypocrisy. It's easy to say you'll do the hard thing, but when it comes time to do it and it's still the same hard thing, well not everyone can do that. And that's best-case scenario right there: that it was just too difficult a thing to eliminate that many presumably high-profile accounts. That it was too unpalatable. And that is just disappointing.

[Mardur]

Moreso that punishments are handed out completely at random. Perhaps Rogean has a banhammer dartboard in the office.

[Nedala]

Originally Posted by Durison [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can tell you that it was a rough time when Dark Ascension was suspended for a week when a one member was caught using MQ in Lower Guk, while our raid force was in Sol B. Dark Ascension was also referred to as a guild who harboured cheaters by the staff, and during this time a guide allowed for the ALT's of IB to create a guild called Dark Suspension. Very Mature~

It's ironic how the tables have turned.

In memory of DA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmBBNFzWN9k

Since a lot of people are crying for a raid suspension of TR atm, im very surprised one thing hasnt come up so far:

DA wasnt raid suspeded just cause one of their members used SEQ in lguk while they were in solb.

DA hacked the database to gain acces to spawn timers before raid mobs even spawned. DA rolled up in full force multiple times a few minutes before a raidmob spawned.

And then they got punished, and then koota tracked raidmobswith SEQ and they got punished again.

And then some dude of DA used seq for personal gain in lguk, and you got punished again, which was probably unfair but it happened cause the GMs were already mad at you guys cause of the bullshit that happened before.

TR isnt raid suspended cause peruns usage of SEQ didnt give us any raid advantage. Also why is nobody crying for a permanent ban for koota and jeremy ? Why did skope not ragequit the server when the people who were "permanently banned" were allowed back to the server?

I wonder how many people didnt know that, just like almost every time a GM decision happens nobody knows all the inside informations, and thats why you should just trust rogean and nilbog and not question their decisions all the time, cause there is always something you dont know.

Let's get back on topic now.

[Barkingturtle]

Originally Posted by Nedala [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also why is nobody crying for a permanent ban for koota and jeremy ?

I guess it probably caused less of an uproar because there wasn't a huge post on the home page about it. Just a guess, though. Anyway, you have my endorsement. Ban 'em. Ban cheaters.

[G13]

Originally Posted by booter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, we know you have this fairness crusade to get TR raid suspended for two weeks, but that really isn't the topic of this thread at all. In fact, you're proving the OP's point by not going through the proper channels for it.

Of course it is. The rules are the rules and they should be enforced equally across the board. Your own guild is ignoring it's own rules as stated by your guild leader on these very boards. Development is completely ignoring the rules they put into place. You are also allowing the cheaters to re-app, and if they are part of the officer clique, they will enjoy plvling to get them back leading your raids ASAP. This has been proudly proclaimed in solidarity with your "pals".

I don't care what guild you are in. I don't care who your friends are. Rules and punishments have no bias. They are supposed to apply to everyone equally, regardless. 365 accounts caught cheating should = 365 accounts banned. Raid leaders caught cheating during a competitive raid should = raid suspension for offending guild. This should apply to any guild on the server. Period. No exceptions.

Apparently your guild cares more about loot than it's integrity. This was not always what IB claimed it stood for. Why yuor membership continues to circle the wagons is perplexing. Your reputation is in the toilet and you're just digging a deeper hole by defending your leadership who either knew about it or were too stupid to not realize it was happening right under their nose.

This thread is about HOW/WHERE you go about questioning GM decisions and how that affects the overall health of the server - it is not the place to actually DO that.

Start a new thread for this discussion if you honestly want it to go anywhere, instead of cluttering up this surprisingly constructive thread.

This thread is about Hasbinbad trying to sweep this under the rug because the facts surrounding the situation are incredibly embarrassing to his guild. I can guarantee if the roles were reversed and a TMO Officer was caught red handed using a 3rd party hack lile Perun was, HBB would be creating thread demanding TMO be disbanded immediately and Durison tarred and feathered.

The cheaters who will be joining us again soon won't be cheating anymore. They'll be caught and permanently removed if they do it again, since we know the staff can detect it. Does everyone agree that they should be able to play again? No. Are they going to be? Yes. Were there more variables to the staff's decision than most players probably realize? Most definitely.

This is a joke right? We're supposed to take you at your word? A guild who's raid leader cheats? A guild who's leader put people in positions of leadership who cheat? There is no possible way you can guarantee this. The only way to guarantee these cheaters never cheat again is to ban their accounts permanently. Problem solved.

Why you are associating yourself with people who cheat and are now defending them on the boards speaks volumes. Nobody gives a crap if they are "Your homeys". As far as the non cheating community is concerned, they are a disgrace.

[Slathar]

Originally Posted by Nedala [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TR isnt raid suspended cause peruns usage of SEQ didnt give us any raid advantage.

according to your guild. please enlighten me, how is knowing the exact location of a raid mob and the best path for pulling it with no adds not an incredible advantage? and you're also assuming that he only used it once - this is only a claim by perun and not a fact. actually, it's more than likely a lie given the amount of cheaters that were suspended in TR.

your argument is ridiculous.