Best solo melee class?

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The devs also put a ton of dex and agi on caster gear though, even into velious. Sometimes I'm not sure even the OG devs knew wtf they were aiming for.

For sure, but then there's also just a ton of gear in classic. The itemization is along the same lines as Diablo 2. You'll get something that looks like a five year old came up with it and then the total opposite, where the item not only fits the theme but also has more uses than originally thought.

That said, it didn't help that various devs were working separately on x, y, z. Or that, when they did communicate ideas, heated debates would turn physical.

[Goregasmic]

My theory is they didn't seem to think players would care all that much about items so they didn't care all that much about itemization. For casters there are just so many slots that have pretty much straight up junk until late kunark or velious that it wouldn't have been too hard to come up with gear that isn't terrible. Like, just a gradation of viable options would have been nice. Also they seemed to want player to do exploration/adventuring but they kinda stuck a stick in their own bike wheel by putting like one good item for a slot and expect people wouldn't try to get it? Like if you're a caster in classic it is basically wolf fur slippers then GEBs, that's it, some middle ground boots in like... kedge would have been nice.

Diablo 2 has random generated loot so you'll get both junk and good loot but in EQ the items are static so that junk is just junk forever.

[zelld52]

I was just thinking about this yesterday - the absolute disparity in the quality of Skyshrine armor for casters compared to every other class.

Melee: Bracers , boots, gauntlets and helm are meh at best.
Priest: Boots, Bracer, Gauntlets are meh.
Caster: Boots, Bracer and Gauntlets are legit.

[Raj]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Imagine you were a passionate cokehead stealing ideas directly from a MUD and trying to figure out to implement itemization for a new genre basically entirely about itemization.
They obviously made some missteps. And that's ok. Anyways, this is a thread about bards and their sweet, sweet melee damage.

Haha this is true my friend.

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My theory is they didn't seem to think players would care all that much about items so they didn't care all that much about itemization. For casters there are just so many slots that have pretty much straight up junk until late kunark or velious that it wouldn't have been too hard to come up with gear that isn't terrible. Like, just a gradation of viable options would have been nice. Also they seemed to want player to do exploration/adventuring but they kinda stuck a stick in their own bike wheel by putting like one good item for a slot and expect people wouldn't try to get it? Like if you're a caster in classic it is basically wolf fur slippers then GEBs, that's it, some middle ground boots in like... kedge would have been nice.

Even the early endgame had some laughably bad items. The stats on most Plane of Fear armor drops are hard to look at. Same with the bard weapons in Plane of Hate. EQ's patch history more or less shows that the devs were learning as they went. Testing wasn't restricted to the test server, or alpha/beta before that. It was ongoing. Understandable, since there were so few games like it at the time.

But yeah, certain slot options for purecasters were scarce. Maybe that was intended, similar to monks, but then the demand for gear became apparent. So monks were given more and more weapons, and purecasters extra regalia/finery. That said, before all of that, more useful equipment was available and far better than the ordinary armor that increased stats. Some of it didn't even need to be equipped for the side benefits, like reclaim energy from mage focus items.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Diablo 2 has random generated loot so you'll get both junk and good loot but in EQ the items are static so that junk is just junk forever.

Well, by this I meant specifically the designed gear, uniques and green sets, being comparable to epics and raid drops. If EQ had randomly generated loot with stat variables, that would be demoralizing. Small group camps fungi tunic for hours and then one finally drops, except with +5 regen and slightly more AC. Raid downs their eleventieth Vulak and, at last, Abashi's is linked in chat but with inferior dmg/dly and the effect having a 9sec cast. Better luck next time! Full BiS would take forever.

[Cecily]

EQ items are not well thought out and stats are meaningless. For the purpose of selling you something, more number = better. Some of these numbers will slightly make you stronger. Some of these numbers will do nothing. Don't worry about it. Just keep paying and we'll give you higher numbers later.

[Ennewi]

BFG, shield ac, sky bow, tolan's BP/bracer, deepwater BP, ss helm, prenerf cos, shaman sky ring, flux staff, tstaff, willsapper, primals, peggy cloak, crown of rile, shield of the immaculate, dawncall, pal/sk epic 2h bash, etc.

Monk and mage epic were both clever. Putting self-only haste on smoking jacket was also a nice touch. Shaman sow boots setting them apart from jboot wearers, even those with VP katana. Bard epic, probably the most well thought out.

Resists, ac, and raw hp/mana arguably the most meaningful stats, but others have been shown to be worth investing in, namely charisma. Instrument mods also count as stats IMO, hardly meaningless.

[Cecily]

With all respect, no shit stats do things. The problem is they're nebulous numbers on a spread sheet that slightly modify one or two mechanics without interesting breakpoints, creativity, or otherwise soul involved. Much less an explanation to the players, which in retrospect I think was on purpose to not expose how fraught with meaninglessness these stats were. WIS/INT makes your mana go up. DEX makes you proc fractions of a percent more. AGI is green.

Heroic stats did solve this problem to some extent, giving some tangible feeling of progress with more numbers. In this version of EQ, it's more like watching a spreadsheet fill out.

[Ennewi]

That's fair. Though certain stats do also improve trade skills and tanks don't MA naked, stats aren't what the could be. Even negative cha doesn't benefit necromancers as once believed. Druids could have had a material/earth spell line, doing partial white damage and improved by strength. A magician's stats should have improved their summoned pets, giving more reason to bolster str, sta, etc. Even instrument mods could have improved the range/radius of songs. List goes on.

Ancient game though, still with more potential than most that came after.

[Cecily]

Yeah it's a shame those stats weren't fleshed out more. People likely came from a DnD background around the time and those are how I'd describe "meaningful" stats. Give me benefits, plural, for having a lot of something. Give me penalties, plural, for neglecting it.

I'm playing an RPG now where there's 6 stats and they all have multiple effects. STR makes your sword / axe / mace damage go up every 2 points and unarmed every 4 points. Increases carry weight and parry chance with those STR weapons. DEX does the respective same thing for bows / polearm / dagger and unarmed. It gives you stealth points as well. WIS is elemental resists and has a recovery aspect. END is physical resists and has a recovery aspect. INT vendor prices, tradeskill speed, and magic damage.

Between STR/DEX/INT, there's a favorable attribute. However, there's real tangible benefit to investing in those secondary/tertiary stats because they have a desirable effect. I really enjoy the flexibility of that type of design, where there's no bad options and specializing for dramatic impact comes at cost. The reality is this system just makes me wanna average everything, but it feels surprisingly good to do so. Nerd games should let nerds look under the hood see how things work and let them build how they think they'll have fun in unique and creative ways. Otherwise everything is just a homogeneous mess. Which makes me wanna rant about BIS as a concept now.