Best solo melee class?

[Zuranthium]

Bards are unique, of course. But casting spells through alternate means than mana, or being able to move while casting, are things that could be built into the design of another caster class.

In the dichotomy of deciding whether something is more physical or more caster, no physical class is capable of being fully effective without attacking. Bards have the same effectiveness as a caster without attacking. The height of their powers involves not attacking and not being in melee, as they want to space away from the thing they are charming (or utilize swarm kiting - very much a caster thing).

No melee class has charm, mesmerize, haste and mana regen buffs, slow and mana drain debuffs, and mass AoE spell damage. It's possible to design hybrid melee classes that do have some of this, but when you're able to "cast" high potency spells non-stop, you have to be considered more of a caster than a physical class.

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by zelld52 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Au contraire:

Riposte: Bards Max = 75. Next lowest is Shadowknight at 175
Parry: Bards Max = 75. Next lowest is Shadowknight at 175

And of course, they do not get double attack.

The asterisk for its casting has to do with unique differences that both hinder and enhance, but distinguish it from all others; there is no melee equivalent in this case. It still has parry and riposte which function the same, just less often. None of the purecaster or priest classes gain the parry or riposte skill, further separating the bard from them. Having a skill versus not, these are class type distinctions...but having a low skill level versus high, that is not. Shadow Knight has lower piercing skill than Paladin, but the skill is available to it all the same.

Originally Posted by zelld52 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Worst damage mitigation skills of all the melee combat characters, probably done to balance the class out against their powerful songs like Slow, Mez, Charm, etc.

But those skill caps were increased as time went on within the classic timeline.

Originally Posted by zelld52 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bards are melee, but just barely. Bards primary role on raids is not to add melee DPS or tank (the two options for a melee focused character), its to provide support. In a group, while levelling: Bards primary role is also not to add melee DPS, but typically to pull and/or provide support in the form of crowd control, song buffs or mana regen. The best bards I've grouped with don't even equip a weapon most times.

Agreed to an extent, but on raids their role can be to add melee DPS however indirect that may be, through ds and/or atk. In terms of leveling, if there were two bards in a group, one could cover those other roles while the other pulled. Or at least they would be able to tank here, before the aggro nerf to songs/procs. By all accounts, their ability in classic to hold aggro was unparalleled due to a number of reasons, one being no mana limitation.

Originally Posted by zelld52 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To anticipate the argument: "Well monks primary role is to pull, not to DPS"

Sure - but monks are also the second (and sometimes best) melee DPS on raids or in levelling groups. They can also tank raid mobs, or tank for levelling groups.

Rangers can't tank shit at level 60 - but they have like 2x the melee DPS of bards with equivalent gear, and fall behind monks and rogues, but do way better than Knights, and are mostly on-par with warriors. Knights can't DPS for shit, but they get great tanking abilities.

One reason why EQ is so satisfying to replay--each class has strengths and weakness to varying degrees, which gear helps with.

[zelld52]

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The asterisk for its casting has to do with unique differences that both hinder and enhance, but distinguish it from all others; there is no melee equivalent in this case.

what? LOL. Bards dont get double attack. That is THE melee equivalent that hinders bards DPS.

also there's a HUGE difference in damage mitigation from 75 to 175+ parry / riposte. For reference: casters only get 75 Dodge max, and theres a huge difference in shaman damage mitigation compared to lets say knight or ranger

and yeah their role can be to support others melee DPS by adding buffs - but this does not mean they are valid melee DPS characters.

all that being said - i bet in classic bards were pretty OP in groups because they could do it all: tank, heal with songs, dps, pull. but thats a bygone era, and in the age of velious they fell way behind every other melee class with those capabilities

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by zelld52 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

what? LOL. Bards dont get double attack. That is THE melee equivalent that hinders bards DPS.

But that isn't a unique difference that's class-defining. Same line of reasoning, monks get triple attack...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by zelld52 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

what? LOL. Bards dont get double attack. That is THE melee equivalent that hinders bards DPS.

Main hand damage bonus is a major factor for melee DPS as well, not just double attack. Using my DPS calculator, let's compare a 60 Wizard, 60 Bard, and 60 Shadowknight using Staff of the Silent Star (Fesh Staff). We are pretending the Bard and SK can use this weapon, because it is one of the best weapons a Wizard can use. We are using Wizard, Bard, and Shadowknight so we can see a parse with no double attack and no main hand damage bonus, a parse with main hand damage bonus and no double attack, and a parse with main hand damage bonus and double attack.

All three characters have 100% Haste, 255 STR, and 100 ATK:

Wizard: ~11.5 DPS
Bard: ~38 DPS
SK: ~55 DPS

The DPS gained from the main hand damage is ~27. The DPS gained from Double Attack is ~17.

The main hand damage bonus is the biggest differentiator between Melee/Hybrid and a caster. The developers probably removed Double Attack from Bards because Bards have the strongest spell set compared to the other hybrids.

[kjs86z2]

lol

[zelld52]

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But that isn't a unique difference that's class-defining. Same line of reasoning, monks get triple attack...

The following classes get double attack:

Warrior
Rogue
Monk
Ranger
ShadowKnight
Paladin



The following classes do not get double attack:

Cleric
Shaman
Druid
Necromancer
Enchanter
Magician
Wizard
Bard

[kjs86z2]

bard is a caster that can get away with melee if piloted by a VERY competent player

maybe 5% of bards leveling can pull off melee properly

odds are that isnt you...keep that lute out and do your actual job (pulling / quarterbacking the group)

[Crawdad]

People who hate their wrists Good bards are going to have Hand to Hand (100) by 60 from swapping, should really say it all. If not, realize casters get epics with clicks and meleers get epics with procs.

[Duik]

Originally Posted by Crawdad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People who hate their wrists Good bards are going to have Hand to Hand (100) by 60 from swapping, should really say it all. If not, realize casters get epics with clicks and meleers get epics with procs.

Good take.

And i never thought about the random fist bumps they'd accumulate by weapon swaps by 60.

Its like learning karate by painting the fence.