I forgot how mudflated live eq was

[Jimjam]

I don't think that weapon is so ridiculous.

If at lvl 50 vanilla you use a short sword of ykesha for a proc aggro weapon and at level 60 you use the red epic, that suggests for each 10 levels DMG should increase by a factor of two thirds.

If that is a weapon for a level 100: 8*1.67^5=103DMG ... seems to more of less follow the trend set by Kunark.

Mind you, I have often said Kunark messed up itemisation in Everquest, so yea.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think that weapon is so ridiculous.

If at lvl 50 vanilla you use a short sword of ykesha for a proc aggro weapon and at level 60 you use the red epic, that suggests for each 10 levels DMG should increase by a factor of two thirds.

If that is a weapon for a level 100: 8*1.67^5=103DMG ... seems to more of less follow the trend set by Kunark.

Mind you, I have often said Kunark messed up itemisation in Everquest, so yea.

Exactly. That's the problem. In modern EQ that weapon is not ridiculous. Its just the so-called "mudflation". Have an expansion: Increase stats on gear/weps + Make encounters relative to gear increase in difficulty.

The result is that after several expansions you 1) make segments of your own game insignificant. the more you add expansions in this manner the more of your own game you sunset. 2) the arithmetic gets out of control. instead of dealing with small sensible numbers you are dealing with HUGE unwieldy stats (can you imagine being the dev that has to actually argue whether or not the item should +2875 HP vs. 2800 HP ???).

Yes, you have the same effect over the natural curve of leveling. Lvl 10 zones are useless for a lvl 60 character. (I can zone into crushbone and slaughter the whole zone easily on a lvl 60 toon). The difference is the consistency of the world is not challenged by this nearly as much as after a few mudflation expacs.

Also, vanilla EQ did a good job of making sure that there usually good reasons why a high level player would actually need to return to lower level zones---holding the world together.

Modern EQ has not only failed to solve the problems of mudflation, they have actively embraced as a part of their game. The player base that has remained on live EQ doesn't mind it. They even enjoy it from my conversations on live. New expansion, can't wait to get a new set of armor with slightly higher stats, etc.

[Solonus]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Modern EQ has not only failed to solve the problems of mudflation, they have actively embraced as a part of their game. The player base that has remained on live EQ doesn't mind it. They even enjoy it from my conversations on live. New expansion, can't wait to get a new set of armor with slightly higher stats, etc.

To be fair, you just described every MMO expansion ever. That's always the case with any game with any new expansion; new items with a slight increase in stats from the previous expansion, and the active player base tends to be excited about obtaining a minimal upgrade because that's the carrot on a stick to keep playing the game. That's the whole point.

Sure, EQ's has gotten to the point where the stats are getting out of hand, but that's expected in a 15 year old game. It's no different than any other game expansion, just bigger numbers.

[rayeatts]

Originally Posted by Solonus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To be fair, you just described every MMO expansion ever. That's always the case with any game with any new expansion; new items with a slight increase in stats from the previous expansion, and the active player base tends to be excited about obtaining a minimal upgrade because that's the carrot on a stick to keep playing the game. That's the whole point.

Sure, EQ's has gotten to the point where the stats are getting out of hand, but that's expected in a 15 year old game. It's no different than any other game expansion, just bigger numbers.

This is why they need to expand the game horizontally, not just vertically.

New content should include new leveling zones, new leveling dungeons, with incentives to use them.

Then the new leveling content would require more players to roll new toons if they wanted to experience the new low level content. That would breathe new life into the low zones constantly, providing an enjoyable experience for new players, thus preventing the game from evolving into something for veterans only.

[Thulack]

Originally Posted by rayeatts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is why they need to expand the game horizontally, not just vertically.

New content should include new leveling zones, new leveling dungeons, with incentives to use them.

Then the new leveling content would require more players to roll new toons if they wanted to experience the new low level content. That would breathe new life into the low zones constantly, providing an enjoyable experience for new players, thus preventing the game from evolving into something for veterans only.

Not everyone enjoys alts or having to restart to experience "new content" People dont want to go horizontally. They want a reason to keep playing and advancing their characters.

[rayeatts]

Originally Posted by Thulack [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not everyone enjoys alts or having to restart to experience "new content" People dont want to go horizontally. They want a reason to keep playing and advancing their characters.

Yeah, I'm saying that many mmorpgs should expand horizontally, not just vertically. There should still be vertical expansion too.

[Solonus]

Originally Posted by rayeatts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is why they need to expand the game horizontally, not just vertically.

New content should include new leveling zones, new leveling dungeons, with incentives to use them.

Then the new leveling content would require more players to roll new toons if they wanted to experience the new low level content. That would breathe new life into the low zones constantly, providing an enjoyable experience for new players, thus preventing the game from evolving into something for veterans only.

True. And this is one area where i'd say EQ out did even current MMOs. When Kunark and Velious came out, they added a whole new set of leveling zones to compliment the already existing ones in the old world. (I can't speak on current EQ expansions, but I know the expansion that had the Drakkin race had some new lower level zones to exp in.) Yes, said leveling zones in Kunark/Velious were of a higher difficulty/mobs had higher hp/dps, but that was due to McQuaid being butthurt over his content being cleared too quickly.

That's something we don't even really see in current MMOs. Every WoW expansion is simply new content for going from the previous level cap to the next. Same thing for FFXIV, and almost every other MMO out there.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Solonus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

True. And this is one area where i'd say EQ out did even current MMOs. When Kunark and Velious came out, they added a whole new set of leveling zones to compliment the already existing ones in the old world. (I can't speak on current EQ expansions, but I know the expansion that had the Drakkin race had some new lower level zones to exp in.) Yes, said leveling zones in Kunark/Velious were of a higher difficulty/mobs had higher hp/dps, but that was due to McQuaid being butthurt over his content being cleared too quickly.

That's something we don't even really see in current MMOs. Every WoW expansion is simply new content for going from the previous level cap to the next. Same thing for FFXIV, and almost every other MMO out there.

I rerolled in eq live about 5 years ago with another old EQer friend. We both started Drakkin and followed the level progression in that expansion. Obviously it wasn't the EQ we had known, but it was still really fun, loads of quests, lots of different theme zones and content. Interestingly, using level appropriate gear, we dominated content with our double wizards! Was rather fun AOEing huge swarms of bixies down [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

Really the Drakkin expansion and up could have almost been released as a separate sequel to EQ instead.


One thing EQ did experiment with, that somewhat mitigated mudflation, is having areas that focused on different equipment sets. Perhaps one expansion has mobs with low AC so you don't need as much attack to do damage, or even more specific perhaps itemisation for an expansion could include a lot of 'Bane [creature] DMG' or even 'Bane [creature] AC' items, which are useful for that expansion, but of diminished use in other expansions where the [creature] isn't so common.

This allows people to keep playing a character, progress it for that expansion, but also means much of the power gained in that expansion won't follow through to other areas of the game.