Warrior dual wield combo on a budget

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Lorian [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ahhh! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] If that is the case would not going with the best ratio (non-proc) even past 37 be an option?

No:
* 2h agro has a negative modifier (-30% iirc), so SoB edge over 1hander not as big as ratio makes it look
* Melee agro is affected by primary hand bonus (or at least it was on live, have not parsed it here) so again SoB edge over fast 1hander is not nearly as big as it looks once you're higher level
* Dual wield fires way more often as you skill it up, off-hand 1hander doesn't get primary hand bonus but also doesn't get 2h malus
* High agro procs (stun, stun+dd, & poison dots) are huge

My 50 warrior holds agro far better with Sarnak Warhammer + Trochillc's Skean than with his Staff of Battle.


Although, it's also true that if your group is just crushing mobs due to the usual massive twinking you could just get a caster or hybrid to root everything and you can hold agro bare fisted with maybe an occasional slam or shield bash for style points.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Lorian [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ahhh! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] If that is the case would not going with the best ratio (non-proc) even past 37 be an option?

If you are only comparing weapons of the same type with no proc, then yes. However things change when comparing 2h vs dual wield. As dual wield becomes more reliable, 2 poorer ratio weapons will surpass a single superior ratio weapon. Primary hand damage bonus also exerts a disproportionately favorable effect on 1h weapons, because the flat damage bonus represents a greater percentage of the lower average damage weapons. Additionally, dual wielding is the only effective means of increasing frequency of procs since their activation rate is set at x times per minute based on the character's dexterity.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No:
* 2h agro has a negative modifier (-30% iirc),

Well that's a new one on me. Source?

[kaev]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well that's a new one on me. Source?

Don't know if it's possible to find all the parsing reported on The Steel Warrior back in the day (and maybe the SK board too, forget the name.)

As far as p99 goes, I'm pretty sure I saw it mentioned in a thread on these boards reporting on some agro parsing, but was some time ago (2 years?) and I don't recall thread title or OP's handle. Might hunt for the p99 thread later.

[kaev]

As far as in-game experience goes, Jade Mace (9/18) + Lamentation (9/19) pulled agro more often than Woodsman's Staff (31/35) with a 47 Ranger. Without a sizeable modifier of some sort I'd expect Woodsman's Staff to very noticeably out-agro that DW combo. (I'm not certain of the current 2h bonus calc, but a quick histogram of my ranger's combat logs from L47 shows a peak at 73, so it appears that 11 was the bonus he had with Woodsman's staff at L47.)

Jade Mace primary at 47: ((9*2+7)/18) * 1.[doubleAttackPercent]
Lamentation secondary: (9*2/19) * 0.[dualWieldPercent]
Woodsman's Staff at 47: ((31*2+?11?)/35) * 1.[doubleAttackPercent]


So: (25/18 * 1.[doubleAttackPercent]) + (18/19 * 0.[dualWieldPercent])
vs. (73/35 * 1.[doubleAttackPercent])


Testing was not even vaguely scientific, just noticing how often I pulled agro off the tank in normal group play (i.e. almost never unless I cast or dual wield.)

[maskedmelon]

Interesting. I agree that on ratios and accounting for DW, the star should generate superior agggro or second and if your anecdotal findings suggest otherwise something is amiss ^^ shorter hate increments certainly play a roll though to what effect cannot be clear without considering the tanks weapons as well.

For example, if a warrior is wielding dual CoT 11/25 and you engage the mob .5 seconds after him:

At t0 warrior has at worst (11*2+5)=27 and at best (11*2+5)*4-10=98
At t.5 DW you has at worst (9*2+5)=23 and at best (9*2+5)*4-10=92
At t2.3 DW you has at worst 46 and at best 184
At t2.5 warrior has at worst 54 and at best 196
At t4.0 WS you has at worst (31*2+11)=73 and at best 73*2=146
At t4.1 DW you has at worst 54 and at best 276 <large chance of aggro jump
At t5.0 warrior has at worst 81 and at best 294
At t5.9 DW you has at worst 72 and at best 368 <larger chance of aggro jump
At t7.5 warrior has at worst 96 and at best 384
At t7.5 WS you has at worst 146 and at best 292

Obviously the chance of DW/DA is going to pull averages at any given point down from potential maxes, but the point is that the more frequent swings create the opportunity for 2 atks I the time of the tank's 1 if you have superior delay weapons plus more frequent atks create more frequent opportunities to catch up assuming the RNG favors you over the war. Essentially aggro is more stable with less boom bust. Now if you were to get 2-3 atk rounds in with the staff before others engaged, there'd be no catching you.

[Lorian]

Is there a cheaper alternative to the SoB for aggro? Raising cash being a lv 20 warrior is painfully slow, at this rate I'd be lv 30 before I have enough money. Managed to scrounge up close to 700 between 16-20 but needed to spend most of it to upgrade from my bronze as I was constantly encumbered.

I guess I might have unrealistic expectations; should I park my warrior for now and find a cash camp with my lv 24 shammy to get some funds? Or should I ignore this whole conversation and be happy with Nathsar Greatsword and SoS/Vilks combo. I might have to go go for the last option as long as people still want to group with me. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[lecompte]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As far as in-game experience goes, Jade Mace (9/18) + Lamentation (9/19) pulled agro more often than Woodsman's Staff (31/35) with a 47 Ranger. Without a sizeable modifier of some sort I'd expect Woodsman's Staff to very noticeably out-agro that DW combo. (I'm not certain of the current 2h bonus calc, but a quick histogram of my ranger's combat logs from L47 shows a peak at 73, so it appears that 11 was the bonus he had with Woodsman's staff at L47.)

Jade Mace primary at 47: ((9*2+7)/18) * 1.[doubleAttackPercent]
Lamentation secondary: (9*2/19) * 0.[dualWieldPercent]
Woodsman's Staff at 47: ((31*2+?11?)/35) * 1.[doubleAttackPercent]


So: (25/18 * 1.[doubleAttackPercent]) + (18/19 * 0.[dualWieldPercent])
vs. (73/35 * 1.[doubleAttackPercent])


Testing was not even vaguely scientific, just noticing how often I pulled agro off the tank in normal group play (i.e. almost never unless I cast or dual wield.)

The way I intellectualize it is, you get 1 pt of agro for the attack (hit or miss!) and 1pt of agro per pt of damage. That is why super fast weapons will take agro over slower two handers -- if the damage difference isn't too huge. On my ranger, I would pull agro 59 using jagged sword of mourning (offhand) + fayguard parrying dagger (mainhand).

I would recommend a fast mainhand and a heavy offhand. Fist of Zek offhand and... something fast mainhand.

[Lorian]

Originally Posted by lecompte [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would recommend a fast mainhand and a heavy offhand. Fist of Zek offhand and... something fast mainhand.

I like your reasoning, it fits better in with my budget! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Kutsumo]

Originally Posted by Lorian [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I like your reasoning, it fits better in with my budget! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just make sure you're still over 75 agi if you decide on the fist of zek. Jagged Long Sword is a good alternative. I grouped with wars quite a bit while leveling up my monk and rogue - and the ones using a high DPS combo seemed to have much more consistent and solid agro than the guys using proc weapons like yaks (sub 50). Maybe wurmslayer + jagged longsword would work well.