My proposal for Raiding guilds and GMs of P1999

[Nizzarr]

Hello all!

The times are dire! We need changes on the raiding scene of the p1999, as soon as possible.

Here's a solution to the problems I've partly created. Please debate the rules I'm proposing in this thread in a civil manners. Any flames, personal attack or bad mouthing will result in whatever the GMs will do to you :P Hopefully something harsh and permanent.

I am proposing a rotation, with certain guidelines and rules to keep this somewhat competitive.

Here is the mobs that will be on rotation:
a dracoliche
Maestro of rancor
Cazic thule
Innoruuk
Lady vox
Lord nagafen
Lord dojorn

We will get all interested guild leaders or officers together to /random who will get the next spawns to start this rotation.

***Please debate this*** Spawn variance will stay in.

***Please debate this*** Guilds will have 2 hours to kill their target, any numbers of wipe is allowed.

***Please debate this*** Second shots on raid targets will be /randomed with guilds that has at least 20 people in the zone. You will not be allowed to /random on the next or 2(if 3 guilds contest a second shot) next spawns if you win a /random.

EXAMPLE: a dracoliche spawns, Divinity has 2 hours to kill it. They do not kill it within the 2 hours. 2 hour is up, Theres 20 dark ascension in the zone, 20 inglorious bastard and 20 remedy. DA /random 100 and gets 76, remedy rolls 50 and IB rolls a 0. DA gets one attempt at the raid mob, Remedy and IB will roll for the second shot again if they are both present at the next dracoliche. If only IB is there for the second shot of the next dracoliche, DA cannot random against them for it. They get the second shot by default(if IB ISNT present within 2 hours, otherwise DA can claim it)

It might sound complicated but it really isnt.

***Please debate this***Camping raid mobs for second shot isnt allowed, unless you're ACTIVELY clearing a plane for armor drops.

***Please debate this*** Cazic thule, You have 5 hours to kill him from spawn.

***Please debate this*** Other guild should timestamp spawns with enough proof of spawn. This is either with a screenshot of the raidmob with a /time in the chat window, or a screenshot of track and /time.

***Please debate this*** I want a rotation on plane of air. 3 days for each guild, depending on the spawn time of the Island bosses. I'm sure the GMs can provide that information so we can tailor rules around them.


So thats pretty much it -- I am certain I have forgotten to list rules. I am also certain we will need more rules to guide this rotation.

This is just a draft for rules, please debate in this thread on what you think needs to be changed.

These rules were made to keep a somewhat competitive environment and to let other less hardcore guild get shots at content. I hope you will all give your opinions on those rules. They also remove the need to camp mobs endlessly!

Hope you all like those ideas!

Nizzarr

Officer of Dark ascension

[Stickyfingers]

I like this idea, nice job.

[regatta]

veto

[mgellan]

***Please debate this*** Second shots on raid targets will be /randomed with guilds that has at least 20 people in the zone. You will not be allowed to /random on the next or 2(if 3 guilds contest a second shot) next spawns if you win a /random.

Seems to me there's no need for a second/third/... random if the guilds with players in zone have rolled and established an order of precidence based on their roll...

Regards,
Mg

[Supreme]

but but..rotation isn't classic!

:p


I like what you are doing and what you are saying. However i think that a rotation will only serve to temporarily solve the bigger picture. Content is too well known for it to be a progressive challenge to players on p1999.

I have two options/proposals to choose from.


FIRST OPTION

Project 1999 goes to a GM enforced raid rotation. Following Nizzarr's plan he has laid out. As players continue to level to 50 they will seek to be a part of the rotation.

Pros

Guilds given fair chance at raid content
No perma-camping
Less Server Drama


Cons

No true competition
It is not classic EQ
As guilds join the rotation it is possible for a guild to only see 1 raid target per month or LESS!


SECOND OPTION

Develop a second server with a GM enforced raid rotation on 7 day spawns while leaving Project 1999 as a FFA raid server for the crazy hardcore. The fact is that with the release of Kunark the problems of raid rotations will not become easier it will become much worse. If there is no willingness to change the spawn times and give every guild a fair shot at the content then you will still have players that are "disenfranchised" by the entire project. Opening a second server will relieve the pressure of so many players that know 110% of the content.

Pros

Guilds given fair chance at raid content
No perma-camping
Less Server Drama
Leaves a server for true die hard classic fanatics that desire to be "The best"
Could possibly bring back players that left because of raid drama



Cons

Split server could affect server populations
No competition (could be a pro)
Content parallels may not be 100% exact with regards to mob placement,quests, finite details.
Could be Financially hard to maintain two servers





While my idea and the pros and cons of each are not complete nor are they exhaustive i try and think ahead of the problem. Kunark and i honestly feel SoV will bring the server population to such a level that it will be a significant problem for players that have already done the content and simply want to experience the classic EQ feel.

I 100% support (both development and financially) the creation of a second server to give players the option between "Hardcore" and "Carebear (or Normal)".

[Phallax]

rotation were very classic on my server, with 4 able raiding guilds, the same as there are here.

[Alawen Everywhere]

I think everyone knows by now that I'm a pretty straight shooter, so here's exactly what I think.

I think we have been hearing about the "new sheriff" in town for several weeks. We've heard a lot of trash talk from a guild that recruited a huge zerg of anyone level 46 or over that has never killed more than 50% of bosses in a given cycle, despite turning the raid scene into the big sit. We've seen and taken screen shots of a DA officer training our raids. We've had DA leadership actively lie to a GM in order to receive an additional attempt.

If this proposal had come two or three weeks ago, there would still be many issues with it. I'm not an officer and I don't speak for my guild, but I don't expect many of us to welcome this proposal at all now.

From my perspective, I don't see a solid core to DA. I see a huge number of officers (10? 12? how many officers do you guys have?) trying to hold together a guild full of recent 50s with the highest turnover rate I've ever seen in an MMO guild. This proposal looks completely disingenuous to me. I think there is a rising dissent within DA from members who want to camp items from non-raid targets that they are missing, build some wealth on the server, develop alts and just have a good time. I think this negotiation comes from a position of increasing weakness.

Before DA, IB was like a conventional raid guild. We'd have our small tracking team (like me!) watching for raid targets while everyone did their thing, whether online or offline. When something popped, we'd let each other know, assemble and mobilize. We were good at it and many guilds discovered that they weren't as fast as we are. DA's leadership decided to eliminate mobilization from the equation with camping. Now we have a DA officer proposing rotation because they're tired of camping.

Here's the bottom line: from where I sit, it seems like DA thought a couple weeks of camping would destroy IB. Instead, it's destroying DA. It looks like a couple more weeks of camping 24/7 will return the server to raid strategies involving tracking and mobilization.

Just like classic EQ.

[Toony]

but but..rotation isn't classic!

:p

Actually rotations were classic, what isn't classic is making them mandated and or governed by the server admins. As long as the respective guilds are the ones responsible for making and adhering to the agreements then its probably a good idea.

I say probably as I don't raid here yet, so I cant rule out any whack jobiness that exists here that didn't on live.

[Supreme]

rotation were very classic on my server, with 4 able raiding guilds, the same as there are here.

I think there is actually about 7 or 8 guilds that can do all the content if given the chance...

[ooantipostoo]

What if one of the guilds doesn't agree to the rotation and just comes in and Ganks all of you?

Rotation was taken out for a reason


Patch Day Respawns is where its at!

[Phallax]

I think everyone knows by now that I'm a pretty straight shooter, so here's exactly what I think.

I think we have been hearing about the "new sheriff" in town for several weeks. We've heard a lot of trash talk from a guild that recruited a huge zerg of anyone level 46 or over that has never killed more than 50% of bosses in a given cycle, despite turning the raid scene into the big sit. We've seen and taken screen shots of a DA officer training our raids. We've had DA leadership actively lie to a GM in order to receive an additional attempt.

If this proposal had come two or three weeks ago, there would still be many issues with it. I'm not an officer and I don't speak for my guild, but I don't expect many of us to welcome this proposal at all now.

From my perspective, I don't see a solid core to DA. I see a huge number of officers (10? 12? how many officers do you guys have?) trying to hold together a guild full of recent 50s with the highest turnover rate I've ever seen in an MMO guild. This proposal looks completely disingenuous to me. I think there is a rising dissent within DA from members who want to camp items from non-raid targets that they are missing, build some wealth on the server, develop alts and just have a good time. I think this negotiation comes from a position of increasing weakness.

Before DA, IB was like a conventional raid guild. We'd have our small tracking team (like me!) watching for raid targets while everyone did their thing, whether online or offline. When something popped, we'd let each other know, assemble and mobilize. We were good at it and many guilds discovered that they weren't as fast as we are. DA's leadership decided to eliminate mobilization from the equation with camping. Now we have a DA officer proposing rotation because they're tired of camping.

Here's the bottom line: from where I sit, it seems like DA thought a couple weeks of camping would destroy IB. Instead, it's destroying DA. It looks like a couple more weeks of camping 24/7 will return the server to raid strategies involving tracking and mobilization.

Just like classic EQ.

^ this. DA's intention WAS to "try" and destroy IB. Believe me I saw the guild text and "lawl" statements and how they think theyre playing chess, its humorous at best. DA is weakening, they were getting weak the first week of it but kept trying to shrug it off by claiming how IB was getting weak.

A new system is needed but I think it needs to be thoroughly ironed out in a good discussion thread such as this over weeks of time, not 1 night sitting in mumble/TS shootin random shit all night.

It needs input from the enitre server, not just a handful of officers from different guilds.

Nizzarr out of the very few DA I still have respect for, you are 1 and I think this proposal is a good base to start the new rules, that are needed, off of.

[randomer]

I think there is actually about 7 or 8 guilds that can do all the content if given the chance...

7 or 8 guilds ?! who ? more like 4 ib,da,divinity,remedy

[guineapig]

^ this. DA's intention WAS to "try" and destroy IB. Believe me I saw the guild text and "lawl" statements and how they think theyre playing chess, its humorous at best. DA is weakening, they were getting weak the first week of it but kept trying to shrug it off by claiming how IB was getting weak.

That's a whole lot of weakening...

[Nizzarr]

We all know IB wont be for a rotation. Please keep the guild drama out of this thread.

I care for the server's health. The raiding scene is important and we need to keep it clean and as drama free as possible. I care about the 600 other poeple that are gonna get close to 50 and wants to raid in the near future. I proposed these rules so no one, in the near future, has to deal with the retardedness that is the current raiding rules.

[Supreme]

7 or 8 guilds ?! who ? more like 4 ib,da,divinity,remedy

Ahh so unless you are currently PERMACAMPING the raid mobs that means you are not a valid raid guild?

I know alot of level 50s in Trans that no longer play that will come back with Kunark. I am sure there are alot of other 50s out there as well as guilds that have level 50s that are capable of raiding if given the chance but simply have better things to do than sit around 24/7 and permacamp 11 year old content.

[Ektar]

This is what the guild meeting is for.

Like this thread, that business doesn't need to be thrown on the entire server. But if you need to know what happened at the last one, shoot me a tell, buddy.

[Phallax]

This is what the guild meeting is for.

Like this thread, that business doesn't need to be thrown on the entire server. But if you need to know what happened at the last one, shoot me a tell, buddy.

Raiding effects the whole server, so yes "that business" does need to be thrown at the entire server.

[Thorjorkill]

In the spirit of condensed clutter:

Guild and PUGRaid rotation is in fact the solution here:

Setup raid targets and times on calendar, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday.

Guilds and Rpugs throw their name into the hat for raid targets and date time slots.

Individual date time slots are lotteried, you get one slot a week on any one raid target, period, unless their is no one else in rotation for an alloted slot.

Failures to hit the raid target fall to the Alternative/BACKUP lotteried guild, if there is no backup the target is FFA.

Guilds may not continually hit the same target and be lotteried that way week after week, everyone needs a shot at naggy etc. You can throw your name in, but don't expect to get Naggy/Vox/Air/PoH/PoF week after week, its up to the raid liason to rotate the lottery so its fair.

Basically a big scheduling nightmare with a twist, but it IS the fairest solution to maintain server social cohesiveness, unless we want 4 FoH, 2 vagrant/elitest, and 1 WoD running around on the server, with all the drama that goes along with.

----------------
I'm surprised this didn't happen sooner. With one server, I think we all know that someone from the community needs to step up to the plate and become a raiding liason/planning manager, for the entire community.

An assistant will be needed as well. Calendar setup here on the forums, etc.

I've done it before on the tribunal for 3 years, worked pretty well, though it takes a little time and alot of integrity to manage the best solution to a horrendous problem. You think its bad now? Wait til Kunark hits and the server pop triples.

[Ektar]

Raiding effects the whole server, so yes "that business" does need to be thrown at the entire server.

I disagree. But that hardly matters - please see the rest of my post.

[girth]

***Please debate this*** Guilds will have 2 hours to kill their target, any numbers of wipe is allowed.

Baaaaad. Anything other than FFA is pathetic IMO. That's what makes this game the best PVE one, competition. If you want your mob every time its up and no competition - go play World of Warcraft.

[Nizzarr]

I believe if IB is kept out of this thread, it could be kept civil.

There wont be no FFA on this server. GMs dont want to deal with it, no one wants to deal with all the drama either.

For all of you who thinks that thread shouldnt exist, please take a look at the current raiding situation and think again.

[Supreme]

what about two servers..one for the FFA people and one that has rotations.

[Nizzarr]

Supreme, Thats a nice idea but we do not want to split the server community. At least I do not believe the admins wants to deal with 2 different servers.

[Supreme]

Actually i think that having two servers would actually bring more people in and increase involvement over all.

Especially when Kunark comes out.

[Mingo]

what about two servers..one for the FFA people and one that has rotations.

One that has PvP and one that has rotations IMO.

[Ektar]

I believe if IB is kept out of this thread, it could be kept civil.

There wont be no FFA on this server. GMs dont want to deal with it, no one wants to deal with all the drama either.

For all of you who thinks that thread shouldnt exist, please take a look at the current raiding situation and think again.


Here's the bottom line: from where I sit, it seems like DA thought a couple weeks of camping would destroy IB. Instead, it's destroying DA. It looks like a couple more weeks of camping 24/7 will return the server to raid strategies involving tracking and mobilization.

Just like classic EQ.

btw.

http://project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1486&highlight=variance

My favorite line is "If you want to kill shit, then be ready when it matters."


Mythoxxus 2.0, please stop using colorful words to sway the server against IB. 6 months ago you thought the variance was the greatest idea. Now you, leading a new guild, have new interests that happen to coincide with the best interests of the guild that conflict directly with your old interests.

And I'm very sorry that anyone who disagrees with you is "not civil." You are missing the point of why this fiasco exists entirely. Or perhaps you're not and just trying to avoid it, which would actually be my guess. However, discussion of this belongs in a guild meeting; not here.

[Alawen Everywhere]

We all know IB wont be for a rotation. Please keep the guild drama out of this thread.

I care for the server's health. The raiding scene is important and we need to keep it clean and as drama free as possible. I care about the 600 other poeple that are gonna get close to 50 and wants to raid in the near future. I proposed these rules so no one, in the near future, has to deal with the retardedness that is the current raiding rules.

You seem to have an idea that 600 people can somehow raid four bosses but the numbers don't work for me. You truly think that a lottery for bosses and logging in once every two or three weeks to kill the boss your guild won makes the server more "healthy"? You're also proposing to throw Plane of Sky immediately into rotation when it hasn't even been released.

This all seems like an excellent idea for how to organize a business, but it doesn't sound anything like my idea of a competitive hobby. Committed participation in a highly structured environment usually comes with a pay check.

When I was a noob in EQ looking up to great players like Nizzarr in <Ruin>, my guilds got our asses kicked. We practiced things like mobilizing until we got better. When we finally got some kills, there was a great sense of pride and accomplishment. I would have stopped playing this game after a month or two if the end game was a bunch of meetings and calendars and schedules and endless rules.

[Nizzarr]

Yea, I made that thread 6 month ago. I stopped playing in january and came back in late april. I never had a taste of my own ideas until I joined DA.

Let's face it, You guys had no competition until DA showed up. Now it came down to camping things 5 days in advance. You want this to keep on going for the whole summer and into kunark?

I speak for everyone -- except the mentally ill or deranged -- No one wants to camp mobs for 100 hours straight. It has came down to this, whoever faults it might be.

It has to change NOW. It is a disgusting state of affair.

I'm looking onward, and I see disgruntled poeple leaving the server after looking how hard(see impossible) its gonna be for them to get a shot at a raid mob. It shouldnt be that way.

[astarothel]

If I had to choose something for rotations, it would definitely be more a type of suicide kings, rather than just /random. Why? Because random fucks some people while others have a horseshoe permanently entrenched up their ass.

Using something like suicide kings would let guilds choose to pass on the mob or take the suicide.

Raid Rotation Suicide Kings

/random for initial guild placement on the suicide list. Let's say it ends up something like this

1. DA
2. Divinity
3. IB
4. Remedy

Guilds are individually responsible for their own tracking and mob intel.
"No one told us it was up" is not an excuse.

Let's say IB, Divinity, and DA all have trackers in SolB, or intel on a Naggy pop. DA as first on the list has 5 minutes to decide if they will mobilize for Naggy, or pass.

If they mobilize, they have an hour to kill the target (if something has trash like a full zone pop in a plane this might have to be longer, also I'd include attempts that start before the end of that hour to wrap up). Choosing to mobilize for that target will drop them one spot beneath the lowest of the three that were present/aware of the spawn -- they have suicided to the bottom of those people on the list.

If the first guild passes it goes to the next guild down the list who has 5 minutes to decide if they will suicide, and so on.

If it gets to the bottom, obviously the guild at the bottom of those involved can take the raid target and they have nowhere to go. I seriously doubt that it makes it that far down the list though with so few targets in classic.


===

Do I like rotations? No, I think they're pants on head retarded. If I am going to see one implemented though I would want to see one that emphasized tracking and intel rather than OMG OUR TURN EVEN THO WE DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS UP.

Addendum: mobilization is important. If you can't get that shit down in an hour, or you opt to take the raid target but can't get enough people, sucks to be you -- you just suicided for no reason.

[Supreme]

I remember before rotation we had a similar problem where Transcendence would start to camp Naggy/Vox 2 days before the mob would even spawn.

That brought about GM enforced rotation.

Then it was done away with because the idea of a "spawn variance" would solve the idea of camping and promote "mobilization".

The fact was that it did not matter. Now guilds can kill Naggy on Sunday then just stay camped there until he spawns 5-9 days later.


I can also say that no one is going to agree on rotation or FFA. Thus why i recommend a formation of a second server that has a GM enforced rotation and another server that has FFA. Seems like some of you do not believe me but that will bring back MORE players than you would lose from the current state of affairs.

In addition with Kunark and SOV on the horizon you have 2 servers developed to accommodate the number of people that WILL come back to enjoy classic content.

[Supreme]

If I had to choose something for rotations, it would definitely be more a type of suicide kings, rather than just /random. Why? Because random fucks some people while others have a horseshoe permanently entrenched up their ass.

Using something like suicide kings would let guilds choose to pass on the mob or take the suicide.

Raid Rotation Suicide Kings

/random for initial guild placement on the suicide list. Let's say it ends up something like this

1. DA
2. Divinity
3. IB
4. Remedy

Guilds are individually responsible for their own tracking and mob intel.
"No one told us it was up" is not an excuse.

Let's say IB, Divinity, and DA all have trackers in SolB, or intel on a Naggy pop. DA as first on the list has 5 minutes to decide if they will mobilize for Naggy, or pass.

If they mobilize, they have an hour to kill the target (if something has trash like a full zone pop in a plane this might have to be longer, also I'd include attempts that start before the end of that hour to wrap up). Choosing to mobilize for that target will drop them one spot beneath the lowest of the three that were present/aware of the spawn -- they have suicided to the bottom of those people on the list.

If the first guild passes it goes to the next guild down the list who has 5 minutes to decide if they will suicide, and so on.

If it gets to the bottom, obviously the guild at the bottom of those involved can take the raid target and they have nowhere to go. I seriously doubt that it makes it that far down the list though with so few targets in classic.


===

Do I like rotations? No, I think they're pants on head retarded. If I am going to see one implemented though I would want to see one that emphasized tracking and intel rather than OMG OUR TURN EVEN THO WE DIDN'T KNOW IT WAS UP.

Addendum: mobilization is important. If you can't get that shit down in an hour, or you opt to take the raid target but can't get enough people, sucks to be you -- you just suicided for no reason.



Again..just because there are only 4 guilds WILLING to permacamp current raid targets does not mean that there are only 4 guilds CAPABLE of doing the content....If you add 4 more guilds into the mix you have 8 guilds trying to compete for less than 8 raid targets...

[Qaedain]

(Background: Raided in EQ from launch until early OOW, usually 1-2 months behind the curve set by guilds like FOH).

"Patch day" repops.

[astarothel]

Again..just because there are only 4 guilds WILLING to permacamp current raid targets does not mean that there are only 4 guilds CAPABLE of doing the content....If you add 4 more guilds into the mix you have 8 guilds trying to compete for less than 8 raid targets...

Fun fact: It isn't camping in this situation, it is awareness and mobilization. In this method a tracker has just as much claim as however many are camping it. The example used four guilds, simply because that is the situation at the moment. More can be added to the list easily.

If you don't have a tracker or the wherewithall to know when a target is up, I don't see how you should be able to have a claim on it.

[Akame]

I disagree with the notion of guild rotation of any kind at any point.

Any pickup raid or raiding alliance should have just as much right to competition as any set guild, whether they use it or not, they should have the freedom to create themselves and begin attempting raid mobs as they can.

No rotation, no taking turns, no rights to a mob before it spawns. Period.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Here's my counter proposal: stop camping. Teach your guild how to mobilize and let's race. I love to race. It was dull when we got all the bosses. I'd rather lose a close race to Divinity or Dark Ascension than get every spawn uncontested. It's exciting. It makes the kills much more fun. It builds respect between the guilds. Competition helps develop everyone's skills and elevates all to a higher level of play.

On the other hand, I can't imagine anything in the world less exciting than the endless rules and boss lottery you have proposed. Your outline is a full page, which means the completed rules will be ten or twenty pages. That sure sounds fun.

[Loke]

I think everyone knows by now that I'm a pretty straight shooter, so here's exactly what I think.

I think we have been hearing about the "new sheriff" in town for several weeks. We've heard a lot of trash talk from a guild that recruited a huge zerg of anyone level 46 or over that has never killed more than 50% of bosses in a given cycle, despite turning the raid scene into the big sit. We've seen and taken screen shots of a DA officer training our raids. We've had DA leadership actively lie to a GM in order to receive an additional attempt.

If this proposal had come two or three weeks ago, there would still be many issues with it. I'm not an officer and I don't speak for my guild, but I don't expect many of us to welcome this proposal at all now.

From my perspective, I don't see a solid core to DA. I see a huge number of officers (10? 12? how many officers do you guys have?) trying to hold together a guild full of recent 50s with the highest turnover rate I've ever seen in an MMO guild. This proposal looks completely disingenuous to me. I think there is a rising dissent within DA from members who want to camp items from non-raid targets that they are missing, build some wealth on the server, develop alts and just have a good time. I think this negotiation comes from a position of increasing weakness.

Before DA, IB was like a conventional raid guild. We'd have our small tracking team (like me!) watching for raid targets while everyone did their thing, whether online or offline. When something popped, we'd let each other know, assemble and mobilize. We were good at it and many guilds discovered that they weren't as fast as we are. DA's leadership decided to eliminate mobilization from the equation with camping. Now we have a DA officer proposing rotation because they're tired of camping.

Here's the bottom line: from where I sit, it seems like DA thought a couple weeks of camping would destroy IB. Instead, it's destroying DA. It looks like a couple more weeks of camping 24/7 will return the server to raid strategies involving tracking and mobilization.

Just like classic EQ.

Really? I think, like you, everyone knows that I'm fair and tend to speak my mind. That being said, some of what you said may be true, but I hope you realize how big of a jackass you sound in this post. Seriously, get off the high horse and join us "recent 50s" (/boggle) in a civil discussion.

As far as the topic at hand - I think raiding on this server can be compared to economics in regard to Adam Smith's concept of an invisible hand. Eventually it will work itself out. If people get sick of sitting on mobs, then they'll eventually stop. If not, they should be more than welcome to continue using whatever tactic they please assuming it abides by basic server rules (PnP). There is no need to regulate it... it will eventually fix itself.

Oh also - Phallax. I would address your posts in this thread, but I don't think I need to tell everyone what they already know.

[Reiker]

I remember before rotation we had a similar problem where Transcendence would start to camp Naggy/Vox 2 days before the mob would even spawn.

That brought about GM enforced rotation.

Then it was done away with because the idea of a "spawn variance" would solve the idea of camping and promote "mobilization".

The fact was that it did not matter. Now guilds can kill Naggy on Sunday then just stay camped there until he spawns 5-9 days later.

Just wanna say I called it. Although I hated rotation, when Nizzarr was first suggesting spawn variance I had a solid stance that not only would it not solve camping, it would promote longer camping.

Solution is FFA/First aggro.

No hate to Nizzarr though, one of the best people on this server and I commend his passion for trying to improve things.

Edit: I'll agree that simultaneous raid boss spawning or "simulated patch days" would be better than spawn variance though. You'll still retain competition in mobilization, and IB will still be the most efficient guild, getting a majority of the kills, but allows other capable "up and coming" raid guilds to snag some dragon or god loot once a week. Rotation eliminates competition and is completely in opposition of the spirit of the game.

[Supreme]

I disagree with the notion of guild rotation of any kind at any point.

Any pickup raid or raiding alliance should have just as much right to competition as any set guild, whether they use it or not, they should have the freedom to create themselves and begin attempting raid mobs as they can.

No rotation, no taking turns, no rights to a mob before it spawns. Period.

I think you are missing the point we are making.

We play to enjoy the classic EQ content and experience. None of us are still college kids, living single with only ourselves to take care of. We have jobs, families and other responsibilities.

With the current state of affairs it is near impossible to raid and experience classic EQ content unless you spend all your life camping/waiting for this 11 year old content to spawn.

Thus why i suggest creating a second server that has a GM enforced raid rotation to accommodate those players that are like myself. It is not to say that a mob spawns that it is "guaranteed" to go to a guild but a guild will be "guaranteed" a chance to do the content before another guild(s) are allowed.

[Supreme]

I would like to add...

I think it would be UNFAIR to those the desire to "mobilize" or FFA raid mobs to be forced to accept a rotation. Just like i feel it is unfair to those that desire rotation be forced to accept a FFA.

The solution is a second server.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Really? I think, like you, everyone knows that I'm fair and tend to speak my mind. That being said, some of what you said may be true, but I hope you realize how big of a jackass you sound in this post. Seriously, get off the high horse and join us "recent 50s" (/boggle) in a civil discussion.

As far as the topic at hand - I think raiding on this server can be compared to economics in regard to Adam Smith's concept of an invisible hand. Eventually it will work itself out. If people get sick of sitting on mobs, then they'll eventually stop. If not, they should be more than welcome to continue using whatever tactic they please assuming it abides by basic server rules (PnP). There is no need to regulate it... it will eventually fix itself.

Oh also - Phallax. I would address your posts in this thread, but I don't think I need to tell everyone what they already know.

You just called me a jackass and told me to get off my high horse but somehow I'm the one being uncivil because I disagree? I don't like your guild's tactics and strategies. I don't like Nizzarr's ideas to fix the problems that he, by his own admission, helped to cause.

We don't need any fancy proposals and complicated rules to fix this situation. I can't express this any more clearly:

If Dark Ascension stops camping, the camping will stop.

You created the problem and now you're complaining and pretending to offer solutions. Really?

[Aadill]

This is a discussion that does indeed belong in the Guild Meeting and not on the forums. I will hopefully be attending next time as it is my goal to work with each guild and suss out a plan that is more appropriate for the makeup, mindset, and competitive natures of each guild than the current ruleset.

As it stands, this is an idea of one member from DA. There is no official statement attached to the intentions presented in this post. As we are all members of the concerned, we will be able to discuss this at a later time and more appropriate place that is convenient to the appropriate parties. It would be good to provide a forum for a serverwide discussion as there may be possible ideas that can be incorporated into a final plan. As of right now, there is not enough neutrality in this thread and therefore it has lost it's original intent.

The GMs are more focused on developing a fun game as a project. Having to police rules and break up arguments between members of raiding parties is not something that I imagine they enjoy. If we are to move forward with any proposals, then this needs to stop turning into an R&F thread.

[tsonka]

1. DA
2. Divinity
3. IB
4. Remedy


This seems like only half of the guilds that should be involved

[astarothel]

This seems like only half of the guilds that should be involved

Seems like you missed the part where I said

More can be added to the list easily.

All that matters is your tracker being there.

[Alawen Everywhere]

This seems like only half of the guilds that should be involved

I agree with you, Bayer. Beneath the smoke and mirrors, this thread is a thinly veiled attempt to present an elitist proposal as populist. If we create this rotation and include every capable guild, my estimate is not at all exaggerated--each guild will log in once every two or three weeks to kill the boss they won in the lottery.

[Loke]

You just called me a jackass and told me to get off my high horse but somehow I'm the one being uncivil because I disagree? I don't like your guild's tactics and strategies. I don't like Nizzarr's ideas to fix the problems that he, by his own admission, helped to cause.

We don't need any fancy proposals and complicated rules to fix this situation. I can't express this any more clearly:

If Dark Ascension stops camping, the camping will stop.

You created the problem and now you're complaining and pretending to offer solutions. Really?

I'm not going to get this sent to R&F, so I'll keep this brief. If you noticed by my post, I disagree with the idea of a rotation also. It's not that you disagreed - it was that you used the issue to take a dig at DA - which isn't what this thread is for. This is not the venue to express that you apparently think everyone in DA is an inexperienced and sub-par player. That was why I said you sounded like a jackass.

[tsonka]

Originally Posted by randomer
7 or 8 guilds ?! who ? more like 4 ib,da,divinity,remedy


No, its just that there are only 4 guild willing to poopsock mobs. The rest of us feel that raiding is f**ked on this server and do not have the desire to camp mobs for days

[Uaellaen]

We are not camping a single one of those mobs ...

[astarothel]

If we create this rotation and include every capable guild, my estimate is not at all exaggerated--each guild will log in once every two or three weeks to kill the boss they won in the lottery.

This is why I recommended my SK variant, emphasizing trackers and those willing to scout and do intel.

I'd like to see FFA/first to engage/no leapfrogging but there's a big split amongst the server it seems on that.

[Alawen Everywhere]

No, its just that there are only 4 guild willing to poopsock mobs. The rest of us feel that raiding is f**ked on this server and do not have the desire to camp mobs for days

Dark Ascension is entirely responsible for this raid situation. I think I've seen Divinity camp two mobs, their first Vox kill and their first Nagafen kill. I've never seen Remedy camp a mob. Inglourious Basterds didn't start camping until DA had been camping spawns for two weeks. They were camping two zones at once and continuing to recruit every player who hit 46 including untagged IB alts. Not a single person in IB likes to camp.

If we're going to have this discussion about how to resolve the camping situation, I think it is extremely important for everyone to understand who is camping and why. I'm going to hammer on this point until every shred of doubt is gone:

If Dark Ascension stops camping, the camping will stop.

[Alawen Everywhere]

This is why I recommended my SK variant, emphasizing trackers and those willing to scout and do intel.

I'd like to see FFA/first to engage/no leapfrogging but there's a big split amongst the server it seems on that.

I think you have an interesting idea, but you might be missing a key piece of information. The development staff has made it clear that FFA is not an option.

[tsonka]

Well said Alawen

[Taxi]

I think raiding on this server can be compared to economics in regard to Adam Smith's concept of an invisible hand. Eventually it will work itself out. If people get sick of sitting on mobs, then they'll eventually stop. If not, they should be more than welcome to continue using whatever tactic they please assuming it abides by basic server rules (PnP). There is no need to regulate it... it will eventually fix itself.


Just like Adam Smith, you underestimate the power of greed. If people are allowed to perma-camp the best loot in the game in a Zerg guild, they will do it. You say "No need to regulate it" and yet it is already regulated... Its just a question of how to regulate it.

I already voted either for A) FFA (my favorite) or B) One guild kills or fails at killing a named ----> Next in-line (or random) has a go at it.

[nilbog]

what about two servers..one for the FFA people and one that has rotations.

I'm sure Rogean would give more specific reasons as to why he would not patch 2 servers every week as the server hardware admin.

My reasoning should be easy to understand. We will not split the population up for anything other than having too many players on one server. We will not listen to 2 different sets of petitioners and deal with multiple databases just so you can have a rotation. It is already an enormous amount of work.

The times are dire! We need changes on the raiding scene of the p1999, as soon as possible.
I'm completely disheartened with the state of raiding as well. A lot of the players were not here when the current rules were made and/or have no idea why they exist.

No one wants to "camp the dragon", or "turn in a token for their badass weekly chance of rotating a simulated dragon". I don't want this for you, and I don't even play.

WE DO NOT CARE if you get loot. WE DO NOT CARE about guilds. We are here to make classic Everquest. Beyond that, you guys should be able to make your own rules when it comes to raid content. Too bad you can't.

We started out with no enforced raiding rules. Disaster. Guilds training each other, guilds camping out on top of raid npcs days in advance. Then we went to a rotation. That worked fine until a 3rd guild entered the mix, then it became terrible as well.

Then, there was weeks of deliberation about a new system. It was 95% bickering, 5% suggestions. We made the best system out of the best suggestions, and went with it.

So we went with spawn variance + raiding rules. As much as you guys don't like it, this keeps work off of us. We don't want to hear your problems. We want to develop content.. and you should want us developing content if you're interested in it existing.

I said time and time again to the raiding guilds.. work things out between yourselves. Make your own rules with each other; never call the GMs. If GMs aren't called then we'll never know or care what the fuck you do. Now, this thread exists again, and everyone is unhappy with the raiding rules.

Is it REALLY necessary that we act as divine babysitters? Embarrassing imo.

I'd suggest making more proposals, and less accusations. This is turning into exactly what happened last time.

[Aadill]

FFA is an option that has been considered before but is not appropriate for a) the community b) the staff ^^^^ see above

The forum is not a place for discussion of these rules as there really isn't any direction to anything being posted.

[astarothel]

I think you have an interesting idea, but you might be missing a key piece of information. The development staff has made it clear that FFA is not an option.

Yeah, which is why I had to settle for the SK model I put forward.

Straight up rotation is stupid. I don't want to have to hold someone's hand and point them towards their loot, let alone what see what happens when a guild in a rotation can't handle the encounter and wipes for hours when there are several other guilds chomping at the bit.

[Yoite]

i have read through the tread and this is the idea i like the most

Here's my counter proposal: stop camping. Teach your guild how to mobilize and let's race. .... It makes the kills much more fun. It builds respect between the guilds. Competition helps develop everyone's skills and elevates all to a higher level of play.

[Gwence]

And posts like these are why FFA would never work either.

The raid rules were brought about with every guild in mind, in fact every guild (except Fish Bait, which is Dark Ascension now) agreed on the raid rules. This means leaders from all the guilds believed the rules would give them a fair chance at killing a raid boss. So for a long time prior to these rules being instituted and a short time after their was no camping going on and I never really heard much complaining... until Dark Ascension came along.

I wont say this guild lacks skill, Im sure they have people that are skilled. What they do lack is organization to an extent I rarely have seen in any high end mmo. In order to compensate for this they complain nonstop about everything that does not make the game easier for them.

The ONLY reason that mobs are being camped right now is because of THEM and their general lack of organization within their ranks. They lack the ability to mobilize to a target and because of this they have utilized a "loop-hole" within the raid rules to an extent that has forced IB to do the same thing. Their is a problem though. IB does it better than they do even though we may not want to.

Now, even with them camping stuff their general lack of cohesive leadership and organization has NOT granted them any kind of advantage on the raiding scene. At best they have split the big 4 with IB 2/2 and that has only happened twice. So now the realization has hit them yet again that they are the far inferior guild. Because of this, new complaints must commence.

It's pathetic and I almost feel sorry for people that hold that guild tag.

FFA would be ok for like a week or two and then the complaints would begin, becasue IB will still get the most. IB is going to be the best no matter what raid system you put in, hopefully others will realize this soon.

If all you want to do is experience raid content then Im sure something can be worked out intelligently. I suggest contacting one of our officers and offering us our choice of your loot from mobs you kill that are sanctioned by us. We've experienced the raids and are simply farming for our members. I think it's a good idea!

[Akame]

I think you are missing the point we are making.

We play to enjoy the classic EQ content and experience. None of us are still college kids, living single with only ourselves to take care of. We have jobs, families and other responsibilities.

With the current state of affairs it is near impossible to raid and experience classic EQ content unless you spend all your life camping/waiting for this 11 year old content to spawn.

Thus why i suggest creating a second server that has a GM enforced raid rotation to accommodate those players that are like myself. It is not to say that a mob spawns that it is "guaranteed" to go to a guild but a guild will be "guaranteed" a chance to do the content before another guild(s) are allowed.

A Second server isn't the answer, but something is definitely wrong if first in force isn't working. I play to enjoy the game too and I certainly intend to raid when I hit 50, an I also intend to not play like I have too much time on my hands either.

So let me see if I understand it right by all these threads here. (my at a glance view of the raiding on this server by all the complaints and commentary on these forums) The real complaint is DA has the numbers to always have first in force in every raid zone at all times to have first shot at every raid mob as it spawns, however, they're able to monopolize said spawns (at least potentially) because there is no weekly downtime to reset the timers like there used to be in classic? So in order to combat said competition other guilds (namely at least IB) is having to camp things as well, in order to have a shot at said mobs too.

Do I have the right of it?

Also...
Things that have been ruled out as not an option:

No second server: not enough dev man power or will
No simulated patch day: I recall one dev saying it was because this created exposure for exploiters and was never going to be an option
Self policed FFA: Apparently there are more jerks now than there used to be 10 years ago so self policing is not an option.


You can tell me if I'm hot so far.

[Cyrano]

We started out with no enforced raiding rules. Disaster. Guilds training each other, guilds camping out on top of raid npcs days in advance. Then we went to a rotation. That worked fine until a 3rd guild entered the mix, then it became terrible as well

But that is how it was on live. Any rules were implemented by players and usually broke down eventually.

You guys don't have to get involved every time someone get's upset about a situation, but for some reason a GM still always shows up. There will always be new guilds coming into the mix, merging, or reforming from an old tag. These guilds will always want a caveat placed in the rules to help them, or change the situation to make it more open, or in their favor.

The simple fact is raiders in EQ were and are one of the most dedicated and hardcore group of individual gamers in the world... take the gloves off and let us play our game.

Like I've said before in other topics, the people who will abuse an FFA system will get noticed and their reputation will stick... but at least we have a competition which is what the raiding aspect of this game was based on.

[Skope]

The only possible way to nearly eliminate guild bickering and moaning and finger-pointing and the subsequent GM intervention would be a rotation. Getting some mob-hungry and loot-hungry people to agree to that though would be nearly impossible.

Sometimes I wonder what it would be like if the GMs sat down and decided a set of rules and enforced them, having the players give insight as to what would work and what wouldn't, with the GMs trying to take an active role in the formation of the rules as a neutral entity. After that they can just hang back and not worry too much about it. Because the more I think about it, the more I realize that if the GMs really wanted to lighten their work load when it comes to resolving raid guild issues it would actually be quite easy. Whether or not some power-hungry people agree with it wouldn't really matter, their opinions tend to be uncompromising and in reality they don't really have much of a say.

[astarothel]

Sometimes I wonder what it would be like if the GMs sat down and decided a set of rules and enforced them, having the players give insight as to what would work and what wouldn't, with the GMs trying to take an active role in the formation of the rules as a neutral entity.

Keep wondering. It won't happen.

[Aadill]

But that is how it was on live. Any rules were implemented by players and usually broke down eventually.

Rules failed because eventually the gap between guilds was increased and they no longer mattered, anyway. No need for rules where rules couldn't apply to the situation.

You guys don't have to get involved every time someone get's upset about a situation, but for some reason a GM still always shows up.

Sometimes GMs show up even when they are not asked to. They are there to watch over things. Sometimes they overstep their bounds. Due to increasing tensions it's not a surprise that it is starting to become a more common occurrence.

[Taxi]

The only way to have self-regulation is to FFA it. Training is already forbidden, so its not an argument to say we had FFA and people were training. Well, its still ban material to train so... nothing changes. You train, you get banned.

Seeing all the bickering here for trivial stuff, i bet on 0 chances of guilds doing the courteous thing and letting another guild have a go at a raid mob. The next best option, and the closest to EQ classic, is to let groups FFA it. GMs can still monitor if people are training or not, wether its FFA or the current raiding rules.

Cuz the choices for me are between Zerg guilds perma-locking the best mobs in the game, or FFA. An easy choice.

Also, it doesnt mean that with FFA all courtesy goes out the window.

[Supreme]

No second server: not enough dev man power or will


Oh but there is...lots of development and will...

[astarothel]

Oh but there is...lots of development and will...

Point is moot. See Nilbog's post.

[Supreme]

Point is moot. See Nilbog's post.

I'm sure Rogean would give more specific reasons as to why he would not patch 2 servers every week as the server hardware admin.

My reasoning should be easy to understand. We will not split the population up for anything other than having too many players on one server. We will not listen to 2 different sets of petitioners and deal with multiple databases just so you can have a rotation. It is already an enormous amount of work.


Another server that was developed independent of P1999. Separate servers, development and staff but working with the fundamental ideas that brought P1999 up. Not competing but working with them.

The fact is that right now i think we could honestly double our active player base if we gave an option. People that played on FFA would KNOW what the server raid environment would be like. While people on a GM enforced raid rotation would know what that raid environment would be as well. There would be a number of people that would return. There will also be a greater influx of people when Kunark is released as well.

There will be no solution on p1999 that will solve the two issue problem of FFA vs Rotation.

A second server would also mean a fresh start for people. People on p1999 would still have their characters there would be no move logging etc..It would just mean a second independent server would be GM enforced rotation to accommodate those players that desire to see such a system.

[bullet]

This is awesome, so many nerds fighting over limited virtual raid bosses in an old outdated mmorpg.

Too many kids, not enough candy :( :( :(

Glad I stopped, 1-49 was good though.

[Aadill]

No reason to fight :(

[Alawen Everywhere]

Another server that was developed independent of P1999. Separate servers, development and staff but working with the fundamental ideas that brought P1999 up. Not competing but working with them.

The fact is that right now i think we could honestly double our active player base if we gave an option. People that played on FFA would KNOW what the server raid environment would be like. While people on a GM enforced raid rotation would know what that raid environment would be as well. There would be a number of people that would return. There will also be a greater influx of people when Kunark is released as well.

There will be no solution on p1999 that will solve the two issue problem of FFA vs Rotation.

A second server would also mean a fresh start for people. People on p1999 would still have their characters there would be no move logging etc..It would just mean a second independent server would be GM enforced rotation to accommodate those players that desire to see such a system.

This sounds awesome. When is your server coming up? I'll probably start an alt there.

[astarothel]

This is awesome, so many nerds fighting over limited virtual raid bosses in an old outdated mmorpg.

Too many kids, not enough candy :( :( :(

Glad I stopped, 1-49 was good though.

Sup anontroll who was likely banned.

[rioisk]

I 100% support (both development and financially) the creation of a second server to give players the option between "Hardcore" and "Carebear (or Normal)".

This is funny. I want to see IB continue to call themselves the "best" on the server when there's no one there to even compete with....in fact it'll probably just be them on the server. Sounds like an empty world for them.

[Supreme]

I think that when it does come to that there will be less guilds to fight over the spawns and a true mobilization system can be put into place.

[Thorjorkill]

I disagree with the notion of guild rotation of any kind at any point.

Any pickup raid or raiding alliance should have just as much right to competition as any set guild, whether they use it or not, they should have the freedom to create themselves and begin attempting raid mobs as they can.

No rotation, no taking turns, no rights to a mob before it spawns. Period.

I don't think alot of you understand the current problem. Unless you level up and join what will become at least one of eight uberguilds here your never going to see ANY raid content nomatter how skilled you are, it will all be on permalockdown like it is currently...

The current raid rules are being outgrown and abused outside the spirit of the guidelines. Period.

Also, I'll use an ol finawin here... Adding another server is RETARDED for too many reasons to list.

[astarothel]

This is funny. I want to see IB continue to call themselves the "best" on the server when there's no one there to even compete with....in fact it'll probably just be them on the server. Sounds like an empty world for them.

Just them. And the 600+ other people that contentedly play.
I doubt DA would leave, nor would Remedy, and probably not Divinity.

So it'd be pretty much just you leaving. Who are you again?

[sidgb]

Make all raids on bosses PuG raids run by the GM's.

And if the raid wipes the GM will DT the mob and give the loot to a noob killing orcs in EC..

:D :D :D :D :D :D

[Dantes]

Are you not considering that a second server would just turn into exactly what this server is? People are greedy and competitive. Even a server pointed at "casual players" will soon become competitive and you will have exactly the same problem we have here. In fact, some people will even exploit the fact that it's a casual server just to be able to push people around and get what they want while they pretend to be casual players themselves.

Anyway I can only play 4-5 hours a week myself, sometimes up to 10 so I'm going to be in exactly the same boat as you. But during live, as a warrior in a non-raid guild I had friends in raid guilds and got invited to tag along on several raids and I had lots of fun. I just assume it'll be like that here as well, maybe I'm wrong? After Kunark came out, with more raid target mobs out there it opened up the playing field for everybody.

[Cyrano]

You guys act like we never have random people tag along with our raids so they can experience a boss for whatever reason.

[Supreme]

I don't think alot of you understand the current problem. Unless you level up and join what will become at least one of eight uberguilds here your never going to see ANY raid content nomatter how skilled you are, it will all be on permalockdown like it is currently...

The current raid rules are being outgrown and abused outside the spirit of the guidelines. Period.

Also, I'll use an ol finawin here... Adding another server is RETARDED for too many reasons to list.

Retarded to add another server because?

I would like to see "too many reasons to list".

[Supreme]

You guys act like we never have random people tag along with our raids so they can experience a boss for whatever reason.

True..but only if you are recruiting them and they rarely if EVER will have a shot at any of the raid loot.

[Gwence]

You can open your own server if you want to. I dont understand why you're demanding Rogean does it. The Emu code is available to everyone, knock yourself out.

[Otto]

Ok. Raids.

I stopped being hardcore a few months ago due to student teaching taking up the majority of my day. And night. However, when I came back, I continued to not raid due to this camping ridiculousness.

I believe the words that were said in a previous topic were, 'IB is too good at mobilizing so they forced us to start camping mobs'. This made me laugh because it is so false.

What? Seriously? I can GUARANTEE there are some equally skilled if not better players who devote more time to EQ than myself and multiple IB members who are in fact not members of IB. That line is so wrong its laughable. We've lost races to targets before. It WILL happen again, so long as camping mobs stops.

A Rotation is completely unnecessary. What we need is for everyone to agree that camping is bullshit (which it appears everyone has) and go back to racing or make some new setup that is pseudo first to engage/ffa that is agreed upon by the guilds who are raiding. It's time to put on our big boy pants and stop crying to Nilbog and Rogean when things don't go our way.

The problem now lies in the fact that both DA and IB are so badly at each others throats, no one seems to be willing to stop camping first. By joining in on the big sit, IB did nothing but exacerbate the problem. Who knows, maybe things would've been worse if we didn't join in... but I for one never thought it to be necessary, and that's why I have four alts now =p

tl;dr

Show up to the next guild meeting and stop being a bunch of children.

[Nizzarr]

All of you guys are pretty fucking sad. No one barely commenting on the actual ideas of the rotation. Just fucking bickering and childish flaming attitude.

Then GMs wants us to find a solutions. I guess IB doesnt want a solution. So we're back at square one. Good fucking job, idiots.

I posted this thread, then our voice over ip server gets DDoS'ed. Let's say I have ideas who did it.

[Icecometus]

At this point only 4 guilds are up in the planes with any frequency: Div, DA, IB and Remedy. Not sure what these other guilds are you speak of, Trans is all but finished (sorry Supreme). IMO these guilds have a right to a rotation.

I would remove the variance from the mobs. Each week the 4 guilds in the rotation would random for first pick. The mini bosses in fear and hate would be included with their God and the guild that chose that God would get 2 mini boss kills for that week. Once the target has spawned the guild that claimed them has 24 hours to kill the mob or it becomes up for grabs (see the current raid system). You would not get to choose the same target 2 weeks in a row of course.

A timestamped screenshot of the mobs corpse would be required to be posted on these forums so that the accurate time of the respawn could be determined.

Occam's Razor...

[Supreme]

You can open your own server if you want to. I dont understand why you're demanding Rogean does it. The Emu code is available to everyone, knock yourself out.

No where have i demanded that anyone do it. I have on numerous posts stated that i would do it both development and finances.

I have posted the idea of a server that is like p1999 but will have a GM enforced raid rotation system. That system will be developed by the guilds themselves but it must give member guilds the chance at content.

[Alawen Everywhere]

All of you guys are pretty fucking sad. No one barely commenting on the actual ideas of the rotation. Just fucking bickering and childish flaming attitude.

Then GMs wants us to find a solutions. I guess IB doesnt want a solution. So we're back at square one. Good fucking job, idiots.

I posted this thread, then our voice over ip server gets DDoS'ed. Let's say I have ideas who did it.

If Dark Ascension stops camping, the camping will stop.

Your idea is not very good. No one likes it. You're taking it personally. You talk about being civil, and then you curse and call people names.

Well done.

[Thorjorkill]

Supreme you know that you are looking at a MINIMUM of 3-5k to just get started right?

You want reasons, how bout I give you 10 reasons to absolve your retardedness...

1)Community Fracture
2)Hosting costs
3)Hardware costs
4)Emergency Maintenance
5)Data Maintenance
6)Smaller player pool for each server - and good luck with maintaining costs while building a consistent playerbase willing to donate
7)Donations rolling in on TWO servers is sure to raise some eyebrows
8)More of the same horseshit once populations stabilize (you've not fixed a DAMN thing)
9)GMs/Guides (there is enough work here already)
10)People solving problems by throwing money at social issues deserve to be shot. (Yes put that skinny $%^& out on the white house lawn and put one in the back of his head...)


I'll bet if I really thought about it, I can do ten more, but I winged it.

I understand you want to do your own thing, what are you proposing, the devs hand over a copy and let you do your thing with it? Oh hells no... Proposing to pay them for it won't go over well at all either, and again, eyebrows will start going up. I already know their is some chatter going on over at SOE's EQLive team office regarding this server, we may not want to push it... Before anyone starts flapping their jack about how "SOE can't do anything" they had better start doing some research.

[sidgb]

You start randoming for bosses you had best make room for PuG raids and thats where it will always fall apart. Top guilds always assume they have first dibs on content and any guild with 20 - 50+ toons consideres themselves a top guild capable of handling this content. PuG raids are more than capable of taking down any of these bosses and there are plenty of capable raid leaders on this server that can and have led them numerous times on live.

If random drives this, get ready to compete against 10 raids for content...or be ready to be back here arguing over it all over again.

It would be funny to see three guilds camping a boss to make sure the fourth guild got his shot over some PuG raid. just so the "top guilds" could maintain a stranglehold on content. Reminds me of the c-block on PoP content worked out between Explicit and Wraith back on Quellious.

[Icecometus]

This is an agreement between the guilds that are currently raiding. PuG raids are not happening so why should we make considerations for them...

[sidgb]

This is an agreement between the guilds that are currently raiding. PuG raids are not happening so why should we make considerations for them...

This is my point exactly. If mobilization and camping are no longer the deciding factor on access to content, the mob becomes a practical option for PuGs reguardless of how the "top guilds" feel about it.

[Thorjorkill]

This is an agreement between the guilds that are currently raiding. PuG raids are not happening so why should we make considerations for them...

Because the way the situation currently stands, PUG groups CAN'T happen. You douches can rationalize "how everything is fine" all you want. Its not - and its not going to get any better until some sort of compromise breaks that can be SOMEWHAT in the spirit of fairness for everyone - including planned PUGS... It won't be perfect, but we have a fair share of mature, intelligent EQ players here that are at the top of their game and social structure to figure something out - without all the god damned drama of how they want their Epeen to shine like a golden rod of geekdome.

[Glitterati]

At this point only 4 guilds are up in the planes with any frequency: Div, DA, IB and Remedy. Not sure what these other guilds are you speak of, Trans is all but finished (sorry Supreme). IMO these guilds have a right to a rotation.

I beg your pardon? I believe Winston Churchill said it best,

“Beware the sleeping dragon. For when she awakes the Earth will shake"

[Icecometus]

I don't see PuG raids being a reality, sorry. Most people who want to raid will find a guild. If that guild can go up into the planes and clear em then they should be given consideration. My system could handle up to 8 guilds if the mini bosses were a separate pick and 2 guilds a week would get the rights to kill them.

[Supreme]

Supreme you know that you are looking at a MINIMUM of 3-5k to just get started right?

You want reasons, how bout I give you 10 reasons to absolve your retardedness...

1)Community Fracture
2)Hosting costs
3)Hardware costs
4)Emergency Maintenance
5)Data Maintenance
6)Smaller player pool for each server - and good luck with maintaining costs while building a consistent playerbase willing to donate
7)Donations rolling in on TWO servers is sure to raise some eyebrows
8)More of the same horseshit once populations stabilize (you've not fixed a DAMN thing)
9)GMs/Guides (there is enough work here already)
10)People solving problems by throwing money at social issues deserve to be shot. (Yes put that skinny $%^& out on the white house lawn and put one in the back of his head...)


I'll bet if I really thought about it, I can do ten more, but I winged it.

$3000-5000 dollars? *gasp*

How about i give you 10 reasons why your 10 reasons are invalid?

1)Your community is already crumbling because people are choosing to leave or not play at all because there is nothing waiting for them after level 50.

2)Covered

3)Covered

4)Covered

5)Covered

6)Since it would be a fresh start server i think you are wrong in assuming that there will be a smaller player pool for each server. In fact i think there will be a returning of players as well as more people willing to actually play again.

7)Raise eyebrows with who? Sony? Ya i am doing this to make some $$$ for myself of course..just like everything else I have done/do.

8)Horseshit like..FFA ,perma-camped raid mobs? Yet the specific purpose of a second server is to have a GM enforced raid rotation that is governed by the guilds/player base themselves instead of a spawn variance FFA system.

9)Thats right because only p1999 has people willing or able to be GMs/Guides!

10)Your statement that this is a social issue and then trying to correlate it between something political is kinda far fetched. Offering a second server for people that desire to see a rotation while leaving a server for those that desire to see "FFA" system is a great idea. Its a two way street.

I do not feel forcing people that like FFA to accept a rotation is ok nor do i feel forcing people that like rotation to accept FFA works either.


Either way when a second server does become available you can always choose to not play on it /shrug.

[Icecometus]

I beg your pardon? I believe Winston Churchill said it best,

“Beware the sleeping dragon. For when she awakes the Earth will shake"

Haha well he was right. I would hate to be the metaphorical Japan in this "war" :eek:

[sidgb]

Even if you don't buy PuGs as viable don't forget the possibility of alliance raids between one or more guilds. I would say they have a legitimate claim to a random if that becomes the deciding factor.

[Loke]

As long as there are people willing to camp, it will continue to occur.

I don't particularly like camping, but I do it (just like the rest of DA and IB) because it's better than not getting mobs. If we did go back to a no camping thing and one guild wasn't getting as many mobs - I am willing to bet that camping would start up again. Its not going to stop as long as people are willing to do it - plain and simple.

I'm not offering any suggestions in this thread because I don't think that we need more rules. Personally I think we have too many already.

[Supreme]

At this point only 4 guilds are up in the planes with any frequency: Div, DA, IB and Remedy. Not sure what these other guilds are you speak of, Trans is all but finished (sorry Supreme). IMO these guilds have a right to a rotation.

I am not sure why you would need to apologize to me. I see lots of members on each day doing their thing...but i guess because we are not all playing our level 50s and running ourselves into the ground to do 11 year old content that somehow excludes us from the discussion or makes us no longer relevant?

Here is your "Get the fuck over yourself" response.

[astarothel]

A Rotation is completely unnecessary. What we need is for everyone to agree that camping is bullshit (which it appears everyone has) and go back to racing or make some new setup that is pseudo first to engage/ffa that is agreed upon by the guilds who are raiding.


This is what I tried to come up with doing my Suicide Kings rotation.

It's not a pure rotation because if you aren't paying attention to when things spawn you will miss out. Tough nuts.

First and foremost I came up with it to stop the camping game, where you get 3 guilds with who knows how many people just sitting around 'bating, and sooner or later someone is gonna douche it up and interfere.

People say they want racing and mobilization, I feel my SK solution would provide a degree of it since FFA looks less and less likely.

[sidgb]

I don't see PuG raids being a reality, sorry. Most people who want to raid will find a guild. If that guild can go up into the planes and clear em then they should be given consideration. My system could handle up to 8 guilds if the mini bosses were a separate pick and 2 guilds a week would get the rights to kill them.


If the "top guilds" left the boss content up for an evening I guarantee you it would be taken down by a PuG raid (or alliance raid) within 24 hours the first time it was discovered. There after within 6 hours.

Thats how it worked on live and thats how it would work here.

[Icecometus]

I am not sure why you would need to apologize to me. I see lots of members on each day doing their thing...but i guess because we are not all playing our level 50s and running ourselves into the ground to do 11 year old content that somehow excludes us from the discussion or makes us no longer relevant?

Here is your "Get the fuck over yourself" response.

When I see a Tranny raid I will eat crow but its been at least a month since I saw any attempt at one.

[Alawen Everywhere]

As long as there are people willing to camp, it will continue to occur.

I don't particularly like camping, but I do it (just like the rest of DA and IB) because it's better than not getting mobs. If we did go back to a no camping thing and one guild wasn't getting as many mobs - I am willing to bet that camping would start up again. Its not going to stop as long as people are willing to do it - plain and simple.

I'm not offering any suggestions in this thread because I don't think that we need more rules. Personally I think we have too many already.

If Dark Ascension stops camping, the camping will stop.

I know you'll continue to try to pretend it's some intangible problem that somehow landed on the server, but the truth is that your only strategy comes from the leader you got rid of, Salty. Your guild and your guild alone created the current raid environment. Your guild and your guild alone can stop it.

Do the right thing.

[Icecometus]

If the "top guilds" left the boss content up for an evening I guarantee you it would be taken down by a PuG raid (or alliance raid) within 24 hours the first time it was discovered. There after within 6 hours.

Thats how it worked on live and thats how it would work here.

Haha I would love to see a PuG break Fear... but perhaps your right.

[Toony]

Haha I would love to see a PuG break Fear... but perhaps your right.

Its only happened a couple (tens maybe) thousand times.

[Icecometus]

Not on this server. All these peeps from Quellious and no one remembers that Quellious had a raid calender where guilds reserved the plains... how did that work with all the PuG raids?

[astarothel]

If Dark Ascension stops camping, the camping will stop.

Some other guild unhappy with the situation will zerg recruit and do the exact same camping. Rather come up with a way to nuke it for good.

[Toony]

Not on this server.

Clearly, doesn't change the fact its just a matter of time though.

[Supreme]

When I see a Tranny raid I will eat crow but its been at least a month since I saw any attempt at one.

/facepalm.....

Raids are not possible when everything is perma-camped from the time it dies till the time it respawns.

As i said before there are alot of us that do not have the time nor the desire to sit around for hours..even days..on end waiting for content to spawn we did 10-11 years ago...

seriously have you not read the thread?

[sidgb]

Haha I would love to see a PuG break Fear... but perhaps your right.

Back on live I was part of countless PuG raids on every plane. Most fun I ever had in game because you never knew what to expect and met new fun people.

But yes, on occasion it did get messy. Bare in mind though that the game was new then. Lots of people on this server have broken into the planes and understand what is needed. Just not on this server.

[Taxi]

Its not going to stop as long as people are willing to do it - plain and simple.


Or the camping rules are updated to take care of zerg guilds perma-locking mobs. This is not a crack at DA, its just the mechanics of attempting boss mobs needs to be changed.

[tsonka]

Trans is all but finished

I do not appreciate that comment Icecometus, do nto talk shit on my guild

Just because my people play to have fun instead of shitting in a tube sock does not mean anythign is dead

[Loke]

If Dark Ascension stops camping, the camping will stop.

I know you'll continue to try to pretend it's some intangible problem that somehow landed on the server, but the truth is that your only strategy comes from the leader you got rid of, Salty. Your guild and your guild alone created the current raid environment. Your guild and your guild alone can stop it.

Do the right thing.

Yes, (and I don't speak for Dark Ascension here) but it would appear that we are unwilling to stop it since the alternative would be watching IB kill mobs.

You pretend like everyone else is just suppose to conform to the play style that you prefer, but that isn't how this works. People are going to do what benefits them - and at the moment, camping mobs benefits DA.

And as far as Salty goes, I was still in IV when Salty was around - and he was never my guild leader... so yea, can't really comment on him since I only knew him as Tyene from Combine briefly.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Some other guild unhappy with the situation will zerg recruit and do the exact same camping. Rather come up with a way to nuke it for good.

Then we'll break their balls until they come to the forums whining for help just like this.

There is a dragon on this server, but he's definitely not sleeping. I'm not sure he ever sleeps.

[Icecometus]

/facepalm.....

Raids are not possible when everything is perma-camped from the time it dies till the time it respawns.

As i said before there are alot of us that do not have the time nor the desire to sit around for hours..even days..on end waiting for content to spawn we did 10-11 years ago...

seriously have you not read the thread?

Yeah. Well when the people camping the BOSSES are too afraid to drop below 15 they tend to not clear the planes. It is totally possible to go up and clear the planes even if another guild is exploiting the raid rules and camping the bosses with 15.

There are constantly more and more 46 plus peeps that are joining the currently active guilds and need their planer armor. I don't want to think about how many times I have clear the planes with no hope at a boss.

[Icecometus]

I do not appreciate that comment Icecometus, do nto talk shit on my guild

Just because my people play to have fun instead of shitting in a tube sock does not mean anythign is dead

Fair enough. It was not a malicious statement, just an observation.

[G13]

Another thread where IB comes in with their egos and destroys it with shit talking, flaming, and an elitist attitude. Obviously you guys are still trying to play the propaganda board warrior game with a bunch of lies.

So now the crutch they seem to be leaning on is "They are better at mobilization and organization" than anyone else, and proceed to call everyone n00bs. Let's get to the truth of the matter then. In the past they "camped" mobs as well. They just used a druid to do it instead of having 15 in zone do it. WOW, what a difference. So they camped at a druid/wiz ring and/or used shady methods to get somewhere in 5 minutes after a batphone instead of just being there ready. Much respect brews.

The fact of the matter is last week you were handed Innoruuk after you whined, cried, and lied to a GM. Vittra n00bed up a pull and trainwrecked your AFK posse at the hate entrance. Gwence you should know since you were there with song running and attempting to fight mobs but got feared by a ghast. The chain aggro from your song bringing in even more mobs. GG.

DA ported up and beat you by numbers in 5 minutes. If that isn't organization, then I don't know what is. You hadn't even started resing yet when DA had 15+ in zone ready. IB then petitioned and lied to a GM, claiming a monk "planted" mobs on the East wall to trick Vittra (a MONK BTW) into training IB. Yes, there are screenshots that confirm this idiocy and I'll be happy to post them here. DA was ported out by the GM, even though Hate is a 2 raid mob boss zone and meastro was up, and IB was given carte blanche, Inny on a platter. GG. Much respect to your l33t skills brews. We're not talking about buggy king room pathing in perma, where IB was given first shot at VOX because of it and failed miserably bind rushing Vox, but I digress. Your monk wiped you in Hate. You knew this to be true, and you lied to a GM anyways to get your way. Everyone get that? Good

The GMs dont want FFA. It was tried and guess who screwed it up with their greed? IB. Not DA. Not Trans. Not Divinity. Not Remedy. Not Salty.

So either you people need to create a system with a majority vote that brings the server back to Planet Earth, or have this server be at the mercy of IB's greed. Your choice. There is a real life out there living beyond these fucking pixels ya know. If IB wants to claim victory and being the best fine, let them. Put in the rotation and congratulate them on having no lives and being the "best" at classic Everquest. It really is sad that what could have been a constructive thread for the health of the server overall was turned into a flamefest because of the fragile ego of people in IB. Congratulations guys. Well done.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Yes, (and I don't speak for Dark Ascension here) but it would appear that we are unwilling to stop it since the alternative would be watching IB kill mobs.

You pretend like everyone else is just suppose to conform to the play style that you prefer, but that isn't how this works. People are going to do what benefits them - and at the moment, camping mobs benefits DA.

And as far as Salty goes, I was still in IV when Salty was around - and he was never my guild leader... so yea, can't really comment on him since I only knew him as Tyene from Combine briefly.

You just admitted that your guild is incapable of mobilizing for a race and that this is why you have tried to eliminate that part of the EverQuest skill set. I don't understand why you're insulted when I question your skills, experience and leadership. You are sub-par, by your very own standards.

Sit and stew, then. This entire thread is yet another failed attempt at propaganda against IB. Do you know what the net effect of all this is? You make us look amazing. You make us look unbeatable. You direct the players who want to part of the best to app to us. Thanks.

[Supreme]

Yeah. Well when the people camping the BOSSES are too afraid to drop below 15 they tend to not clear the planes. It is totally possible to go up and clear the planes even if another guild is exploiting the raid rules and camping the bosses with 15.

There are constantly more and more 46 plus peeps that are joining the currently active guilds and need their planer armor. I don't want to think about how many times I have clear the planes with no hope at a boss.

Honestly not worth it to go into pofear and pohate to clear trash mobs that do not drop planar gear..or port up to hate to kill the sporadically placed planar mobs and get 10 or so kills.

Its perma camped/dead. I am a rogue and check often.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Hey look, anonymous troll is here to tell everyone the facts! Thanks anonymous troll! No need to post any evidence, your word is good enough for us!

Hey, would you like to come over for dinner? My wife would like to meet you. She thinks your wisdom could be helpful for our marriage.

[Taxi]

You pretend like everyone else is just suppose to conform to the play style that you prefer, but that isn't how this works. People are going to do what benefits them - and at the moment, camping mobs benefits DA.


Loke youre funny, youre talking about camping rules as if theyre the laws of evolution by Darwin.

So when people are saying that perma-locking mobs is an abuse of the camping rules, pointing that out is asking the mega guilds to conform to other players playstyle?

The greediness and the extent to which people are willing to go to get items are the reason why the camping rules are obsolete and need to be re-worked. Its transparent why players like Loke want things to stay the way they are.

Im glad to see a Dev say that they see theres a problem, because long term its going to be a bigger problem with the pop getting to higher tiers.

Its gonna be a matter of who can gather the biggest zerg guild, and arranging time zones so you can claim a mob 24/7.

[azxten]

Here's my proposal.. roll up a fattie and zone out until Kunark comes out because classic always had high end content problems. If you're just trying to get a kill for the sake of reliving it I'm sure that will happen and if you're worried about drops then have fun stressing.

[G13]

Here's my proposal.. roll up a fattie and zone out until Kunark comes out because classic always had high end content problems. If you're just trying to get a kill for the sake of reliving it I'm sure that will happen and if you're worried about drops then have fun stressing.

It stopped being about drops a long time ago brew

[Nizzarr]

Please refer to the first post in this thread for a solution to this problem.

Look -- theres not a million way to go about it. You either have a scrub rotation(24 hour to engage mobs and we're all in happy happy land) or theres the rotation I proposed which still have some kind of competition in it.

Or you keep having this campfest. Cuz let me tell you guys -- its not going away.

[Supreme]

Im glad to see a Dev say that they see theres a problem, because long term its going to be a bigger problem with the pop getting to higher tiers.

Its gonna be a matter of who can gather the biggest zerg guild, and arranging time zones so you can claim a mob 24/7.

Glad you see the problem as well!

[Loke]

You just admitted that your guild is incapable of mobilizing for a race and that this is why you have tried to eliminate that part of the EverQuest skill set. I don't understand why you're insulted when I question your skills, experience and leadership. You are sub-par, by your very own standards.

Sit and stew, then. This entire thread is yet another failed attempt at propaganda against IB. Do you know what the net effect of all this is? You make us look amazing. You make us look unbeatable. You direct the players who want to part of the best to app to us. Thanks.

Wow. You make it sound like the ability to mobilize is the single greatest attribute one can possess. I have never once come here and hated on IB because I do respect most of your members and think you guys are a fine guild. However, clearly mobilizing isn't as important as you think since camping has made the mobilization tactic obsolete. Your ability to mobilize in the current raid setting is about as useful as the ability to sword fight is in a modern day armed conflict.

As far as you insulting me as a player - I think anyone who knows me or has played with me knows that I'm a fine player who knows his class and the game - so just because your GUILD (collectively) has mobilized faster than my GUILD (collectively) in the past, it says very little about the over all quality of player. It simply implies that one guild has more members within a close proximity to their computers at the time the MOB spawns.

But way to come here and run your mouth like you're some sort of EQ all-star.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Please refer to the first post in this thread for a solution to this problem.

Look -- theres not a million way to go about it. You either have a scrub rotation(24 hour to engage mobs and we're all in happy happy land) or theres the rotation I proposed which still have some kind of competition in it.

Or you keep having this campfest. Cuz let me tell you guys -- its not going away.

You really think your members are that bad that you couldn't practice mobilizing for a couple of days and compete? That's a shame. Why would you want to be in a guild that you think so poorly of?

[Nizzarr]

When we did mobilize, we beat ya to mobs.

[astarothel]

So now the crutch they seem to be leaning on is "They are better at mobilization and organization" than anyone else, and proceed to call everyone n00bs. Let's get to the truth of the matter then. In the past they "camped" mobs as well. They just used a druid to do it instead of having 15 in zone do it. WOW, what a difference. So they camped at a druid/wiz ring and/or used shady methods to get somewhere in 5 minutes after a batphone instead of just being there ready.

You just gave an example of mobilization, not camping. Good job.

So either you people need to create a system with a majority vote that brings the server back to Planet Earth, or have this server be at the mercy of IB's greed. Your choice.

Good job at arguing the logical fallacy of "All or nothing".

It really is sad that what could have been a constructive thread for the health of the server overall was turned into a flamefest

By replies like yours too! Surprise!

[Starklen]

When we did mobilize, we beat ya to mobs.

You should be pretty comfortable not camping mobs then.

[Icecometus]

Camping the Bosses leads to a kind of rotation. Why not just formalize it?

[Alawen Everywhere]

Wow. You make it sound like the ability to mobilize is the single greatest attribute one can possess. I have never once come here and hated on IB because I do respect most of your members and think you guys are a fine guild. However, clearly mobilizing isn't as important as you think since camping has made the mobilization tactic obsolete. Your ability to mobilize in the current raid setting is about as useful as the ability to sword fight is in a modern day armed conflict.

As far as you insulting me as a player - I think anyone who knows me or has played with me knows that I'm a fine player who knows his class and the game - so just because your GUILD (collectively) has mobilized faster than my GUILD (collectively) in the past, it says very little about the over all quality of player. It simply implies that one guild has more members within a close proximity to their computers at the time the MOB spawns.

But way to come here and run your mouth like you're some sort of EQ all-star.

I honestly have no idea if you're a great, good, average, poor or awful EQ player. I think I'm a pretty good EQ player. There are a bunch of things I know how to do in theory, fewer things I can perform consistently and well, a lot of things I can do sometimes and a whole bunch of things I'm not very good at.

There is a major element of this game that your guild is so bad at that you're willing to spam recruit and sit in one spot for days on end. You have chosen to align yourself with that weak guild. That definitely brings into question both your quality as a player and your judgement as an individual.

Incidentally, your old guild, In Virtue, kicked my guild's ass up and down the block for the entire time I played on Kane Bayle. Not once did I run to the forums with whining and accusations. Not once did I petition or try to get rules changed because something wasn't fair. We worked hard and practiced and got better and got a kill here and there. I believe in rewarding hard work. I don't believe in rewarding people for gaming the system.

[G13]

You just gave an example of mobilization, not camping. Good job.!

You guys are acting like mobilizing for classic content takes insane skill or something. It never has.

It doesn't even pass the laugh test. So you camp a druid instead of a druid +14 in a zone. That was your problem. So another guild says "why bother with camping at a port when we can just sit in the zone with 15?".

Both guilds are doing the same exact thing. So somehow IB has elite level of skill because they have to port in the zone first. Gotcha. The variance and 15 in zone created the numbers game. Mobilization has nothing to do with it.

[Toony]

Camping the Bosses leads to a kind of rotation. Why not just formalize it?

That's how it worked for us, can't be in two places at once. Yeah we camped, steam rolled and talked shit for a few months, it got old and we struck a 3 (sometimes 4) way rotation and stuck to it for years. Yeah pugs would come along and snatch something every now and then, no biggie.

[Loke]

Not sure what whining you think I'm doing here Alawen. As I said in my original post in this thread - my only issue in this thread is with your need to use the topic as a means to bash on players that you know next to nothing about.

I've said on a number of occasions that I'm fine with the way things are and I think the issues will eventually work themselves out. You're complaining far more than I am in this thread guy.

[Alawen Everywhere]

You guys are acting like mobilizing for classic content takes insane skill or something. It never has.

It doesn't even pass the laugh test. So you camp a druid instead of a druid +14 in a zone. That was your problem. So another guild says "why bother with camping at a port when we can just sit in the zone with 15?".

Both guilds are doing the same exact thing. So somehow IB has elite level of skill because they have to port in the zone first. Gotcha. The variance and 15 in zone created the numbers game. Mobilization has nothing to do with it.

Let's tell the truth. Fish Bait followed Inglourious Basterds into Plane of Fear and then sat at the north wall for months because you were incapable of breaking in. I've still never seen you break the zone. I watched you die and drag corpses to the temple hill (which should aggro the entire temple, but I digress) earlier today.

You don't camp because you're clever. You camp because you're not capable of anything else.

[astarothel]

You guys are acting like mobilizing for classic content takes insane skill or something. It never has.

Mobilizing fast enough to beat another guild to it does.
I mean shit, in one of your other posts you were practically creaming yourself over your ability to mobilize.

DA ported up and beat you by numbers in 5 minutes. If that isn't organization, then I don't know what is.


another guild says "why bother with camping at a port when we can just sit in the zone with 15?".

Maybe because they'd get the first shot with the 15 in the zone rule?
Pretty sure those 14 people would rather be doing something else with their time. Or you know wish that there was a better ruleset in place.

So somehow IB has elite level of skill because they have to port in the zone first. Gotcha.

If they were getting a hefty haul on the kills before the camping business began? Then yea more than camping takes...

[Icecometus]

That's how it worked for us, can't be in two places at once. Yeah we camped, steam rolled and talked shit for a few months, it got old and we struck a 3 (sometimes 4) way rotation and stuck to it for years. Yeah pugs would come along and snatch something every now and then, no biggie.

Right now we could have a perfectly fair 4 way rotation like the one I described above. It could be expanded to up to 8 guilds. With the turnover in players every major guild has to deal with there will be spots available for almost all the serious 46+ people with any amount of social skills (and some spots available for complete DBs as these forums can attest).

[Taxi]

I honestly have no idea if you're a great, good, average, poor or awful EQ player. I think I'm a pretty good EQ player. There are a bunch of things I know how to do in theory, fewer things I can perform consistently and well, a lot of things I can do sometimes and a whole bunch of things I'm not very good at.

There is a major element of this game that your guild is so bad at that you're willing to spam recruit and sit in one spot for days on end. You have chosen to align yourself with that weak guild. That definitely brings into question both your quality as a player and your judgement as an individual.

Incidentally, your old guild, In Virtue, kicked my guild's ass up and down the block for the entire time I played on Kane Bayle. Not once did I run to the forums with whining and accusations. Not once did I petition or try to get rules changed because something wasn't fair. We worked hard and practiced and got better and got a kill here and there. I believe in rewarding hard work. I don't believe in rewarding people for gaming the system.

To be fair, mobilizing is almost the same in practice. If your numbers are high, you have a better chance of mobilizing than if youre a guild with low numbers but still capable of raiding. It still encourages zerging.

Again, to be fair, even if FFA is put in place, zerg guilds will have an advantage, but at least theyll have to fight for it.

It doesnt seem to me that dark ascension is bad and needs to recruit alot to compensate for a lack of skills. Ive grouped with a bunch of DAs before that were good players. Its probably the camping system that encourages zerging, because if the numbers are high enough, you can just sit there and perma-camp the mob.

[Thorjorkill]

How about you twits stop epeening and pointing god damned fingers and go sit together in a chat room/vent and work it the fuck out like adults? Make a compromise that works for everyone on the server and not just four fucking guilds? Thats what this is all about, its not about giving ground you idiots.

Once again you dumbasses have brought this thread down to me me me factor, and thats not even what this thread had in mind.

Shut up and go work it the fuck out, and then come back and get some respect, otherwise just continue to beat off in the corner.

Douchebags... STFU and go DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM, and provide a somewhat progressive solution.

[Icecometus]

At this point only 4 guilds are up in the planes with any frequency: Div, DA, IB and Remedy. Not sure what these other guilds are you speak of, Trans is all but finished (sorry Supreme). IMO these guilds have a right to a rotation.

I would remove the variance from the mobs. Each week the 4 guilds in the rotation would random for first pick. The mini bosses in fear and hate would be included with their God and the guild that chose that God would get 2 mini boss kills for that week. Once the target has spawned the guild that claimed them has 24 hours to kill the mob or it becomes up for grabs (see the current raid system). You would not get to choose the same target 2 weeks in a row of course.

A timestamped screenshot of the mobs corpse would be required to be posted on these forums so that the accurate time of the respawn could be determined.

Occam's Razor...

here is is again, since it got buried under a heap of shit talk.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Right now we could have a perfectly fair 4 way rotation like the one I described above. It could be expanded to up to 8 guilds. With the turnover in players every major guild has to deal with there will be spots available for almost all the serious 46+ people with any amount of social skills (and some spots available for complete DBs as these forums can attest).

Eight guilds. Four bosses. One kill every two weeks.

Hey, I have another idea. Every player who wants to be in a raid guild gets to join the guild of their choice. Competition doesn't matter. Fairness is the only thing that matters. Right?

[Icecometus]

The mini bosses are being camped and have value. every one of the up to eight guilds would get one major kill a WEEK. The 4 way rotation would grant the 2 lucky guilds that got the Gods 3 kills that week. Please read my suggestion, if it does not make sense i will try to make it clearer :)

[astarothel]

Its probably the camping system that encourages zerging, because if the numbers are high enough, you can just sit there and perma-camp the mob.

Which is why it needs to be changed. If the chance of obtaining the mob was the same for 1 tracker as it was for 15 camping people, you can bet 14 other people would happily be playing an alt or doing something else. There'd be none of the lolboxing claims that are being bandied about in relation to the raiding situation and more people would be actively *playing*

[Gwence]

The fact of the matter is last week you were handed Innoruuk after you whined, cried, and lied to a GM. Vittra n00bed up a pull and trainwrecked your AFK posse at the hate entrance. Gwence you should know since you were there with song running and attempting to fight mobs but got feared by a ghast. The chain aggro from your song bringing in even more mobs. GG.


And by Vittra, you mean Bronson of course. You know the guy that had an oppurtunity to roll for the spawn and refused to do so which lead to the GM removing DA from zone.

I guess that's why you post anon, because you have no idea what you're talking about.

[astarothel]

Straight up rotations of "here's your cookie go get it" won't work. There has to be a way to compete still otherwise it's Hello Kitty Island Adventure. Incentive has to be there for players to want to log on to try and get a kill. A rotation takes that drive to improve and pisses all over it.

[Taxi]

There has to be a way to compete still otherwise it's Hello Kitty Island Adventure.

AKA instances.

[sidgb]

Straight up rotations of "here's your cookie go get it" won't work. There has to be a way to compete still otherwise it's Hello Kitty Island Adventure. Incentive has to be there for players to want to log on to try and get a kill. A rotation takes that drive to improve and pisses all over it.

Actually, you guys are competing at out camping one another. It may not be the desired method but it is competing. Some guilds just don't want to compete on someone elses terms. Especially when they think the GM deck may be stacked weither it's true or not.

[Audacious93c]

Im pretty sure you got your point across to everyone in DA and outside of it, Alawen. We're terrible, we camp mobs, we started the long sit, we are not as good as IB, whatever. Its not intended to be a personal attack at you, but your post count versus others in this thread dominates by a wide margin. Id ask that you be the bigger man here and represent your guild better. The same goes for my fellow guild members.

Suicide Kings Rotation is actually not a bad idea in my opinion and something I believe the guilds could work with. It would have to be fleshed out a bit more, but it has the proper frame work. Honestly, it sounds pretty similar to what Xzerion and myself talked about during our two guilds Ventrillo meeting. I just dont feel that letting that guild know that the mob is up (if they dont know themselves), or giving them an extended period of time to get set up is fair to the other guilds (For example: two hours is pretty long for Nagafen). Given a flare of competitive nature with tight time limits and secrecy; I believe it would benefit everyone tremendously. A new guild entering the rotation is really the only tribulation imo. The other side of the coin however, is that we could throw out the 15 person minimum limit. If you want to take the chance with less people, then thats the risk you take.

On a side note: Camping the Bosses leads to a kind of rotation. Why not just formalize it?

You make a good point. DA and IB has traded mobs back and fourth for the last few weeks now. Sometimes DA with the upper hand, sometimes IB. It wouldnt change much as for whos getting loot. The variance has done a good job at deciding what T1 encounters a guild gets. It would just allow some of us to "save on our electric bills."

- Daidraco :rolleyes:

[nilbog]

Especially when they think the GM deck may be stacked weither it's true or not.

We hope you all die, if thats what you mean.

<Team NPC>

[sidgb]

We hope you all die, if thats what you mean.

<Team NPC>

WOOHOO!! I wanna die first!!

[astarothel]

A new guild entering the rotation is really the only tribulation imo. The other side of the coin however, is that we could throw out the 15 person minimum limit. If you want to take the chance with less people, then thats the risk you take.

A new guild /randoms into the list ensuring they will end up -somewhere- on it. Assuming they take the less favoured targets more often sitting at the bottom of the list, it still allows them to gear up a fair amount, because the other guilds will be more likely to suicide on higher tier loot.

By a raid group opting to take the suicide, I presupposed that the 15 person limit was removed. This is because if you take that suicide, you are responsible for mustering and getting your group in progress.

Reasonable time limits (either for failing to muster or failure to drop a target) would have to be worked out since some encounters have trash, while other stuff doesn't.

[Raren]

i think its time for DA and IB to start getting along and working shit out this fucking fighting everyday about every fucking mob is turning into bullshit competition is good but lets all be real people here and work shit out

[Ihealyou]

Periods are your friend.

[Phallax]

Something needs to be worked out far before Velious to get the variance removed. Because variance will single handly fist fuck all of NoTV and Vulak encounters...Hey look we have Vyemm, Aary and all 3 tripplets all in spawn window, but Vulak is up...Lets take the chance and engage....Oh shit Vyemm spawned! Raid wipe...

Something needs done with the raid situation and it needs done quick so it can work itself out of the next year or so. Kunark wont be so bad, with Trak, VS, Gore, Talendor, PoAir stuff, Epic encounters, chardok royals and VP. There will be lots of encounters to throw around, but issues will still rise up. Once Velious gets around even more raid encounters, and events(10th ring).

But as of right now with only 6 targets on such a long cycle with a vairance window it makes the raiding scene tedious at best. The current raid environment is shit and not fun at all, not even when you get the kill. I for one am happy to get my app "denied" by DA, for numerous other reason, but at least I dont have to worry about officers/members thinking im not "dedicated" for not wasting my sweet ass time sitting around in a zone for 48+ hours till something finally spawns just to have more QQ guild drama shit happen.

For everyone saying this doesnt belong on the forums, the fuck if it doesnt. This effects the entire community that has interests in raiding and the enitre community needs to have input on what the raiding situation should be like, not Tom, Dick, and Harry from Guild A, B, and C.

[Skope]

Dumping spawn variance will increase guild-mob monopolies and doesn't address the issue of camping. The 48h +/- and 24 +/- allow for multiple guilds of all time zones to get a fair shot, but it's actually been abused because of the first to 15 in zone rule; essentially making the 48hour +/- a 10-15minute "get back to your PC" event for the guild that's been in there 3-4 days. Variance also makes sure that these guilds camping a target for 3 days may inevitably miss out on another target (say vox spawned early). Variance isn't a bad idea, it's ultimately which rules it's coupled with that make or break its intended purpose.

[Phallax]

Dumping spawn variance will increase guild-mob monopolies and doesn't address the issue of camping. The 48h +/- and 24 +/- allow for multiple guilds of all time zones to get a fair shot, but it's actually been abused because of the first to 15 in zone rule; essentially making the 48hour +/- a 10-15minute "get back to your PC" event for the guild that's been in there 3-4 days. Variance also makes sure that these guilds camping a target for 3 days may inevitably miss out on another target (say vox spawned early). Variance isn't a bad idea, it's ultimately which rules it's coupled with that make or break its intended purpose.

I think variance will destroy the raiding atmosphere in velious. Sure it works now but will fail later. There NEEDs to be some sort of agreement between guilds that doesnt include camping. NToV and VP has to many targets in 1 zone for the current rules to handle correctly.

But Phallax, Velious is years away.

BTW when Variance was introduced to EQlive it was only +/-12 not this 48 bs.

Sure it is, but why wait untill then to refine the raid rules to work with it. A rotation or FFA may not work so well now, but with tons more targets in the future it may work then.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Im pretty sure you got your point across to everyone in DA and outside of it, Alawen. We're terrible, we camp mobs, we started the long sit, we are not as good as IB, whatever. Its not intended to be a personal attack at you, but your post count versus others in this thread dominates by a wide margin. Id ask that you be the bigger man here and represent your guild better. The same goes for my fellow guild members.

I'm going silent out of personal respect for Daidraco. I've already said my piece.

[snifs]

What if the rule changed from "first 15 in zone claim the mob" to something more like "first 30 in zone claim the mob."

It's quite rare that I see any bosses taken down with 15 members of a guild, aside from maybe Maestro or Phinny.

Obv. the number to claim on certain encounters may be lower (maestro), but if you needed 30 to claim Inny, this would still enforce a mobilization race, and guilds wouldn't be able to camp out in multiple zones. I really don't see DA or IB or any other guild camping bosses with 30 members at a time for 2 days straight, it wouldn't be possible unless they just mass recruited to ensure camping mobs, which i can ensure neither guild would want to do.

Now maybe 30 is too high or too little I don't know. But for every boss kill I've seen for DA and IB, they have had more than 30...aside from a few select bosses.

Now, sure, a guild could drop 30 in PoHate and armor pharm and chill in PoHate for as long as they can hold 30, but I think this would greatly reduce camping and encourage a bit more of mobilization tactics.

thoughts?

[astarothel]

Putting numbers on it isn't necessary. You should go with what you think you can succeed with. If you wipe, sucks to be you -- there's plenty of other raid groups probably waiting.

[nicemace]

basic rotation

-guild has 1 hour to engage,
-only 1 attempt before mob goes FFA to next viable raid party 15 - 20 whatever
-variance stays in (maybe reduced to 12 hour windows or somethig, just so its not same fucking time every week)

timestamp screenshots of mob / track of mob will be start of 1 hour period to engage, dont need to inform whoever is up in rot. if mob isnt taken in that 1 hour, you come in have a party take loot.

this still leaves a lot of room for competition and mobilization fun in the middle of the night and mob stealing (lack of a better term) if rotation guild slacks off.

obviously times can be adjusted for plane clearing mobs. but still keep it as short as possible.

this favors both the competitive guilds and the guilds who just want their shot every now and then.

ps. nice job training yourself in hate ib.

[Skope]

Snifs, I'm afraid it will only cause guilds to mass-recruit even further, if these trends continue.

The downsides to rotation are rather obvious: not enough mobs, too many people, and guilds never quite being content with what they have. Though, Phallax is right in his assertion that it would be a good idea down the road, though by Velious there should already be a clear first, second, third, etc. guild structure so that the #1 guild wouldn't be raiding guild #4's mobs.

[snifs]

Putting numbers on it isn't necessary. You should go with what you think you can succeed with. If you wipe, sucks to be you -- there's plenty of other raid groups probably waiting.

True, but it's been stated that GM's don't want FFA. Putting a higher number on the claim, would reduce overall camping. No guild on this server is going to be able to keep 30 members in sol B for naggy and 30 in Fear for draco, atleast not long enough for spawns.

It would push guilds into accepting a bit more of an FFA tactic over camping, and overtime maybe we could compeltely drop it and go FFA or some form of FFA.

But as of now, there is no way FFA is going to stick on this server.

[Thorjorkill]

Seems people are still trying to find the best solution for them and theirs being the primary factor, so fuck it - I'm out of this thread until you terds stop jabbing fingers and polishing your rods on each others chins.

[snifs]

Snifs, I'm afraid it will only cause guilds to mass-recruit even further, if these trends continue.

The downsides to rotation are rather obvious: not enough mobs, too many people, and guilds never quite being content with what they have. Though, Phallax is right in his assertion that it would be a good idea down the road, though by Velious there should already be a clear first, second, third, etc. guild structure so that the #1 guild wouldn't be raiding guild #4's mobs.

I highly doubt any guild, at least the top 4, are going to actively mass recruit just to continue camping even more.

No one LIKES the camping, it's only done because people feel it necessary at the moment.

[astarothel]

No guild on this server is going to be able to keep 30 members in sol B for naggy and 30 in Fear for draco, atleast not long enough for spawns.

That is the exact opposite of what I want to see happen. I want fewer people camping total, not simply a greater concentration in one place.

[snifs]

That is the exact opposite of what I want to see happen. I want fewer people camping total, not simply a greater concentration in one place.


What I'm saying is, guilds just won't do it...I can tell you DA is not going to sit 30 people in one zone, for 2 days straight, just to get 1 kill. Especially with a spawn variance.

^ granted, maybe if all bosses are down, and CT is last to spawn...we could see camping for that. But I think it's at least a step closer to not camping.

I'm thinking it should force guilds into simply mobilizing members when stuff spawns.

[astarothel]

Then it won't be OMG THEY ONLY HAVE 14, it will be OMG THEY HAVE x-1, where x is the required number to claim it.

You'll have mass rushes to a zone, and inevitably there will be people that don't get the claim that will consider asshattery, provided a GM doesn't disperse them (which I think we all want to avoid).

[nilbog]

True, but it's been stated that GM's don't want FFA.


You misunderstand. I said "we do not care wtf you do" as long as we do not have to hear about it. I *personally* agree with a first to engage type ruleset. The current setup and operation of things do not allow for this. We want to make EQ, not mitigate your raids. You could all mutually agree to settle your disputes with PVP for all we care. You could impose a first to engage scenario on each other based on your own logs. The issue is whether or not it is brought to us. When you summon a guide or GM, expect results based on our server rules.

With 6ish raid targets and your huge guilds, I assume some degree of camping would still be happening. It amazes me that there are so few guilds for so many people. You could create competition with yourselves if you made new guilds.

We need a solution that makes sense. *GM-enforced* rotations make no sense to me. Player-made ones do, if that's what you want. GMs should be used for extraordinary circumstances but are presently being called for petty disputes over who gets what pixels.

Is there not a poet amongst you? Designate an ambassador and talk to your rival guild.

[snifs]

If the claim number is raised, your not going to have 30+ members of IB camping Naggy, then they fall to 29 and DA tries to zerg in before they get their numbers up.

With an understanding of the guilds, it will fall back to, multiple trackers in each zone. Mob spawns, and its a rush to get claim to a mob by having 30ish or so members.

That's how FFA would work, for the most part. Except it would avoid any KS'ing or fighting for the mobs.

[snifs]

Either way, anything other than rotation...camping will be involved.

Most of the 50s that have been around all have multiple lvl 50 chars. They will simply camp them out at or near spawn locations. And when the call is made, they will log them in. There is nothing you can do about that.

That being said, I'm against a rotation, just for the sake of classic experience. On my server it was FFA. FFA is classic to me. For others, their server may have been rotation. Rotation is classic to them and what they would enjoy.

Gotta find a middle ground some how.

[Olorin]

You misunderstand. I said "we do not care wtf you do" as long as we do not have to hear about it. I *personally* agree with a first to engage type to ruleset. The current setup and operation of things do not allow for this. We want to make EQ, not mitigate your raids. You could all mutually agree to settle your disputes with PVP for all we care. You could impose a first to engage scenario on each other based on your own logs. The issue is whether or not it is brought to us. When you summon a guide or GM, expect results based on our server rules.

With 6ish raid targets and your huge guilds, I assume some degree of camping would still be happening. It amazes me that there are so few guilds for so many people. You could create competition with yourselves if you made new guilds.

We need a solution that makes sense. *GM-enforced* rotations make no sense to me. Player-made ones do, if that's what you want. GMs should be used for extraordinary circumstances but are presently being called for petty disputes over who gets what pixels.

Is there not a poet amongst you? Designate an ambassador and talk to your rival guild.

Almost everyone is saying they dont want to camp -- solution is relatively simple, develop some anti-camping rules. Just off the top of my head, we could allow each guild to have a tracker or two in the zone -- beyond that, all members of a guild that are in a zone when a target pops are not eligible to be part of the "first in force count".

I am sure that the leaders of these guilds could polish this some (this is just off the top of my head) or even come up with a completely different idea that accomplishes the same thing.

If we don't want to camp, lets take away the advantage that camping gives you.

[G13]

And by Vittra, you mean Bronson of course. You know the guy that had an oppurtunity to roll for the spawn and refused to do so which lead to the GM removing DA from zone.

I guess that's why you post anon, because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Why would Bronson roll for a spawn that was rightfully DA's? Vittra pulled. Vittra trained. Vittra wiped you. You cried to the GMs to get a mob handed to you. I don't remember IB having to roll for Vox the previous week when buggy goblin pathing wiped DA. You got first shot because of a pathing issue. DA complied. IB got first shot. You engaged Vox. You failed. Attempted to bind rush. Failed. DA rolled in and killed Vox. I guess it has something to do "mobilization skills" or something right?

DA loses a mob that was rightfully theirs because IB trained themselves with a noob monk and cried to the GMs to come bail them out. Nobody came here to the forums talking shit after that happened. They let it go, but you guys just can't keep your mouths shut can you? I'm not gonna sit here and stay silent when you guys come and troll up a thread and talk shit about people who have worked their asses off.

What really happened was you guys were fucking around while most of your guild was AFK and got yourselves killed. To save face, you tried to pin the blame on someone else. You lied to your officers and you lied to a GM. Congratulations on your elite skill Gwence, since it was you who was partly responsible for wiping your own guild. I don't blame the GM for having to make a decision. He did what he had to do since you and a few other IB were too pussy to admit you fucked up. Instead you lied to your officers and you lied to a GM.

Kind of funny how Bronson can pull while FD and AFK. Wait, Bronson "planted" the mobs on the east wall right? You have any idea how ridiculous that sounds?

This was supposed to be a thread where people constructively talk about the current raiding situation here and find solutions. You, Alawen, and a handful of others have taken it upon yourselves to talk shit about DA instead. So either you are going to continue to be part of the problem or you can become the solution. It's your call. I commend Nizzarr for trying to find solutions. Maybe your guild needs to do the same instead of running your mouths.

[G13]

Almost everyone is saying they dont want to quit -- solution is relatively simple, develop some anti-camping rules. Just off the top of my head, we could allow each guild to have a tracker or two in the zone -- beyond that, all members of a guild that are in a zone when a target pops are not eligible to be part of the "first in force count".

I am sure that the leaders of these guilds could polish this some (this is just off the top of my head) or even come up with a completely different idea that accomplishes the same thing.

If we don't want to camp, lets take away the advantage that camping gives you.

Like someone above stated

Nothing is stopping people from camping out in the zones instead.

[astarothel]

Multiple trackers is fine, if everyone agreed to go back to it.
The issue will be when both have X amount, and the race is on to engage, if both pull at the same time, etc. That mess will still be possible, and is what GMs will most definitely want to avoid. That's why I went with modding up a SK option. It only rewards those groups willing to invest the tracker or awareness to be involved. The limited amount of time after you call your suicide will make people think "hmmm, can I get enough people on, fast enough to do this? Or should I pass and risk someone else mobilizing fast enough"

[Olorin]

Like someone above stated

Nothing is stopping people from camping out in the zones instead.

Camping out in the zone does not really give a decisive advantage with a +- 48 hour variance. It takes little enough time to gather at a portal and get ports. Camping in a zone (other than say sol b) increases your mobilization time for targets other than naggy.

If thats the strategy that a guild wants to employ, let them. Everyone can do this and its a helluva lot better than camping the zone and using up the badwidth doing nothing.

[Skope]

You misunderstand. I said "we do not care wtf you do" as long as we do not have to hear about it. I *personally* agree with a first to engage type ruleset. The current setup and operation of things do not allow for this. We want to make EQ, not mitigate your raids. You could all mutually agree to settle your disputes with PVP for all we care. You could impose a first to engage scenario on each other based on your own logs. The issue is whether or not it is brought to us. When you summon a guide or GM, expect results based on our server rules.

With 6ish raid targets and your huge guilds, I assume some degree of camping would still be happening. It amazes me that there are so few guilds for so many people. You could create competition with yourselves if you made new guilds.

We need a solution that makes sense. *GM-enforced* rotations make no sense to me. Player-made ones do, if that's what you want. GMs should be used for extraordinary circumstances but are presently being called for petty disputes over who gets what pixels.

Is there not a poet amongst you? Designate an ambassador and talk to your rival guild.

I think Nilbog and I are on the same page, but with a little deviation. I do think that having a rotation can, and most certainly will, decrease GM intervention drastically. Though I think with all the hate-spewing and some of the attitudes at high end raiding, a player-made and enforced rotation would see petty petitions and disputes at a higher rate than a GM enforced and GM/Player constructed agreement to a rotation, particularly when guild A feels it isn't being treated fairly by guild B. Guild A decides not to abide by player-made rules. Then neither does guild B, and you're essentially back to FFA and all the chaos that it may bring. A GM stamp of approval backed by a shiny hammer would prevent that.

12 hour variance allows for a 1 hour engagement on a mob (inny/CT/dragons), -- and perhaps the same on draco/maestro -- allows for mobilization techniques, lesser levels of camping, and active clearing.

[G13]

Camping out in the zone does not really give a decisive advantage with a +- 48 hour variance. It takes little enough time to gather at a portal and get ports. Camping in a zone (other than say sol b) increases your mobilization time for targets other than naggy.

If thats the strategy that a guild wants to employ, let them. Everyone can do this and its a helluva lot better than camping the zone and using up the badwidth doing nothing.

You can just camp out in safe spots in each zone

There is no need to "gather". Anyone who claims "mobilization" is what we need either has an agenda or doesn't understand how the current raid zones are setup.

Let me give you an example. Camping in hate will save you money and port time. So what, is the guild that camps in WC at the wizard spire somehow better at killing the boss mob or something?

Another example - Perma. Camp out at the 2 door room. So what, is the guild that binds there instead or uses potion of the frost better at killing Vox now?

Fear - There are safe spots to camp out which are much more efficient than breaking in. So porting to Fearrot and doing a quick WW break makes you better at killing draco or CT or something?

You get the point. There needs to be a real solution so every guild can enjoy the content. Nobody talks about how there are other guilds capable of killing these mobs that don't get the chance because they don't want to poopsock. Using a druid to track and waking everyone else up at 3AM is still poopsocking. So instead of AFK your character is camped out. It's the same damn thing. People are trying to twist and pretezel semantics here to try and pin the blame on each other and it's childish. We need to look at the situation like adults and find a happy medium.

[eqdruid76]

You know what amuses me? How every single one of you think Sony killed EQ.

Sony didn't kill EQ. You idiots killed EQ.

Just read the shit you've typed here. None of you have good ideas. You THINK you have good ideas, and you think everyone should think you have good ideas. But they don't.

It doesn't work here because you people don't have the capacity to cooperate and make it work. It's someone else's fault. No one will admit any sort of blame, or accept responsibility for being in the wrong.

On the other hand, it's a game. A reversed engineered emulator of an 11 year old game. Why do you care so much? Aren't there a lot more important things in your lives to be nerdraging about? If the answer to that question is no, then.....holy shit, I am so sorry for you....

I'm disgusted by the attitudes and actions of a lot of players on P99, but I have to admit, the word "poopsock" makes me lol no matter how many times I read it. :P

[astarothel]

This was supposed to be a thread where people constructively talk about the current raiding situation here and find solutions. You, Alawen, and a handful of others have taken it upon yourselves to talk shit about DA instead.

Actually the first person to even mention that incidence in poh was you. You criticize others for not adding constructively to a thread, then go and splooge all over it?

How's that hypocrisy hangin?

Nizzarr, Loke, and Aadill have kept it genial (like they always do, thanks gentlemen), but there's a bunch of acidspitters like yourself on DA's side too, ready and willing to drop trou, whip out their e-peen's and beat them off in IB's direction.

[Glitterati]

When I see a Tranny raid I will eat crow but its been at least a month since I saw any attempt at one.


Trans raided Hate tonight. So how do you like your crow, rare or well done?

[Erasong]

You know what amuses me? How every single one of you think Sony killed EQ.

Sony didn't kill EQ. You idiots killed EQ.

Just read the shit you've typed here. None of you have good ideas. You THINK you have good ideas, and you think everyone should think you have good ideas. But they don't.

It doesn't work here because you people don't have the capacity to cooperate and make it work. It's someone else's fault. No one will admit any sort of blame, or accept responsibility for being in the wrong.

On the other hand, it's a game. A reversed engineered emulator of an 11 year old game. Why do you care so much? Aren't there a lot more important things in your lives to be nerdraging about? If the answer to that question is no, then.....holy shit, I am so sorry for you....

I'm disgusted by the attitudes and actions of a lot of players on P99, but I have to admit, the word "poopsock" makes me lol no matter how many times I read it. :P

i hate almost all of your posts eqdruid.. minus this one. you have redeemed yourself sir!


On another note, I really like the suicide kings idea altho it does need more discussion.


Elaida, 50 Paladin and IB's nicest member ;)

[Evorix]

Elaida, 50 Paladin and IB's nicest member ;)

QFT!!

[G13]

Actually the first person to even mention that incidence in poh was you. You criticize others for not adding constructively to a thread, then go and splooge all over it?

How's that hypocrisy hangin?

Nizzarr, Loke, and Aadill have kept it genial (like they always do, thanks gentlemen), but there's a bunch of acidspitters like yourself on DA's side too, ready and willing to drop trou, whip out their e-peen's and beat them off in IB's direction.

Nice try but they were the ones talking shit about DA first. I'm sorry if I had to set the record straight with actual facts. I don't speak for DA anyways. I just know exactly what happened.

Thanks for admitting your members trolled up this thread and DA kept it civil.

[astarothel]

Thanks for admitting your members trolled up this thread

Whose troll members again? Mine? Last I checked neither of my two guildmates were in this thread.

and DA kept it civil.

Haven't we been through this. It wasn't about who did it first, it was that you bothered to respond with what you felt was "in kind" (which for the record only resulted in escalation).

[Erasong]

wow everyone stop bickering, get along, and hammer this out =D



Elaida, 50 paladin and nicest member of IB ;)


i think im just gonna make it a sig

[G13]

wow everyone stop bickering, get along, and hammer this out =D



Elaida, 50 paladin and nicest member of IB ;)


i think im just gonna make it a sig

Talk to your guild members.

That was plan until they came in here talking shit

[Jify]

Talk to your guild members.

That was plan until they came in here talking shit

I just read the last page.. but all I see is you talking shit and other people trying to get you to stop.

Just an fyi.


Doug, 50 Bard and 2nd nicest member of IB... :P

[Modus]

All of you guys are pretty fucking sad. No one barely commenting on the actual ideas of the rotation. Just fucking bickering and childish flaming attitude.

Then GMs wants us to find a solutions. I guess IB doesnt want a solution. So we're back at square one. Good fucking job, idiots.

This. From page 1 of this thread, you can see the mindless insults spit from the drawling retards of IB. I have no doubt in my mind that DA, Remedy, and Divinity could reach a fair, competitive ruleset consensus within minutes. Add Inglorious Douchebags, and all you'll get is childish nonsense resulting in a thread such as this one.

Every time Alawen and Gwence open their mouths, the true colors of IB are clearly shown. Other guilds on this server want a compromise that benefits all of us, as intelligible adults not obsessed with video game bragging rights.

Sometimes a farmer needs to cull the lame sheep from the herd...

[astarothel]

Every time Alawen and Gwence open their mouths, the true colors of IB are clearly shown.

Your guild has forumtrolls too. See: yourself in a mirror, G13.

==

I decided, perhaps because I possess a masochistic personality, to start from page one and revisit this thread.

I shall now provide a TLDR synopsis.

Nizzarr: Hai guyz I have an idea.
Alawen: you guys suck, stop camping lol.
Nizzarr: stop saying we suck
Alawen: stop camping? problem solved?
Daidraco: Tone down the douche, Alawen
Alawen: k

Fast Forward to page 12
G13: OMG RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE response
IB: lolololol escalation inc

Fast forward to page 19
G13: MOAR RAGE replies
Many by this point: G13 dude, stop being a dick.
Modus: clearly you can see only IB has dicks. Clearly.

[Erasong]

This. From page 1 of this thread, you can see the mindless insults spit from the drawling retards of IB. I have no doubt in my mind that DA, Remedy, and Divinity could reach a fair, competitive ruleset consensus within minutes. Add Inglorious Douchebags, and all you'll get is childish nonsense resulting in a thread such as this one.

Every time Alawen and Gwence open their mouths, the true colors of IB are clearly shown. Other guilds on this server want a compromise that benefits all of us, as intelligible adults not obsessed with video game bragging rights.

Sometimes a farmer needs to cull the lame sheep from the herd...

this totally ignores im in IB, and tried to stay constructive. I did notice you didnt call me by name so there is that but fact is, Its 2 of 5 IB members i can think of that posted in this and flamed anyone. A ratio pretty much on par with the rest DA atm. Lets just continue this civil like and forget all the drama. suicide kings sounds good to me. I hope something is worked out eventually.

[Jify]

This. From page 1 of this thread, you can see the mindless insults spit from the drawling retards of IB. I have no doubt in my mind that DA, Remedy, and Divinity could reach a fair, competitive ruleset consensus within minutes. Add Inglorious Douchebags, and all you'll get is childish nonsense resulting in a thread such as this one.

Every time Alawen and Gwence open their mouths, the true colors of IB are clearly shown. Other guilds on this server want a compromise that benefits all of us, as intelligible adults not obsessed with video game bragging rights.

Sometimes a farmer needs to cull the lame sheep from the herd...

Modus, please.

Bickering is not some one sided battle. Attacks on guilds like this will of course draw a response. Your childish behaviour is exactly the cause that we seek to bicker against.

You can call us (IB) all drawling retards and comment on our "childishness", but you're doing nothing but proving your own childish ways.

Please don't pull the "other guilds want this" argument out. If I remember correctly, when the guilds originally ordered together to find a raiding solution, your guild "Fishbait" from which most of DA stems, refused to take part in the meeting, favouring a "all for us" attitude. You've taken part in multiple guilds, bringing what I can only describe as a malice attitude against IB from every guild you hop to.

Sure, it's easy to point fingers, blame the big guys, call everyone else dumb, and suck your thumb. But it doesn't get anything done. Follow the golden rule, grow the fuck up and people will respect you and your buddies.




Nizzarr:
I love the idea of a rotation, with variance. However, I disagree with the rolling for guilds in zone. I would still like to see it as "first guild with over 15" for the secondary guilds to come along. I also would hate to see a "limit" on the amount of mobs people are able to claim.

Obviously, my opinion would work in IBs favour (I think we still have the best mobilization time), but I believe DA has enough numbers (and possibly fast enough mobilization) to provide healthy competition. This change would also allow Divinity to take part in the raiding scene more aggressively, since the "camping" requirement would be lifted.

Thank you for putting the effort forth to fix the system, once again. Your suggestions worked well in the past, and I believe we can build on them to alleviate this silly camping requirement.

[Starklen]

This. From page 1 of this thread, you can see the mindless insults spit from the drawling retards of IB. I have no doubt in my mind that DA, Remedy, and Divinity could reach a fair, competitive ruleset consensus within minutes. Add Inglorious Douchebags, and all you'll get is childish nonsense resulting in a thread such as this one.

Every time Alawen and Gwence open their mouths, the true colors of IB are clearly shown. Other guilds on this server want a compromise that benefits all of us, as intelligible adults not obsessed with video game bragging rights.

Sometimes a farmer needs to cull the lame sheep from the herd...

The irony of this makes me smile.

[Modus]

The first ten pages of this thread belie the truth.

[astarothel]

The first ten pages of this thread belie the truth.

The second ten, another equally valid truth.

[Xzerion]

So I'll start be reiterating what Alawen said, if DA stops camping, IB WILL stop camping as well. We have a guild full of people who want to raid, and if we didn't camp, we wouldn't be raiding at all ever right now because of what was started. Nobody in IB wants to camp, we didn't start this, so if people want it to end under the current rule set, then it is easy for that to happen. We all know it won't though.

For someone to say that IB isn't interested in trying to work anything out or try to get along is flat out wrong. I have never ignored or blown off anyone wanting to come and talk to me about anything here. IB openly went to the guild meetings to try and improve upon the server rules to clear out some gray area so raiding was a more enjoyable, fair, and consistent experience for everyone. We made several compromises from what we wanted to happen for the betterment of the server's end game and the spirit of working together. In the end, every guild agreed to the policies that were posted and agreed it was fairest solution to every guild/pug that wanted to raid. We also agreed to make a concerted effort to take the griefing out of the game with each other and continue to have meetings to continue to develop our rules as well as discuss any problems we are having with each other.

At the most recent guild meeting I had proposed a couple deterrents I had thought of to camping. Without naming names, we were told that camping was their way of competing with IB's mobilization and that camp deterrents were not going to be agreed to (at least the ones I presented, which I will go over below). DA made it clear camping is the system that works for them and were not interested in changing it. The general attitude that everyone minus DA took from the meeting is that camping was going to continue and that if something were to be changed it would need to be GM enforced. Every other guild in that meeting agreed camping was a problem we wanted to work on getting fixed.

Right now there are multiple messages coming from different DA officers. This past weekend DA proposed a rotation between IB and DA with the agreement that other guilds were still free to engage the target and if it was say DA's mob and remedy killed it then the next week it would be IB's uncontested from DA. Basically it was a rotation to stay out of each others way and just share spawns each week. The terms from what I understood was it was to go in until sky. DA also made it clear they want to get along with IB, which I thought was great, and I made it clear that regardless I would like to continue to communicate in an effort to make things better. Two things we did not like was the non-involvement of the other guilds who had helped to develop the existing rules and the fact that it was a very temporary solution, which kills competition basically, I never gave a definite no but I did not say yes either. 3 days later I'm told that a written proposal was sent to all the guilds for a rotation except for IB, so any semblance of consistency or any effort to get along, seems out the window based on that. And now today, another DA officer is talking about something else different and several officers I have talked share different opinions on it all. You guys need to get together and decide what you collectively want and stick to it, its the only way anything is going to move forward. Once that happens come talk to me and lets figure this out.

The camp deterrents I proposed were that if two raid forces were in the same zone and a boss mob spawned, that we straight up roll for it, at the time I thought whats a better way to make camping suck than to sit there for 20 hours only to have the force who had been there for an hour win it in a roll. It was pointed out to me that nothing stops them from leaving 1 tracker in the zone and 40 ppl in the adjacent zone. Its a very good point and it probably wouldn't work. The other thought was to enable a roll call if a boss happened to be up and guild A was in the zone....once guild B zoned in they could issue the call whether they were in the zone when the boss spawned or not. If guild A answered the roll call then guild B would issue the timer...this still seems to make sense to me so perhaps in the future this can be added.

So let's rewind back to the original server rules. The biggest gray area is it says in order to "camp, or claim" a spawn you need to have 15 people at the raid target. However the rules do not define "where the raid target is". In our guild agreement rules we eliminated the need to be at the raid target because the idea was a guild would have a timer to clear to a certain spot and engage the target. This was done to help eliminate trains and leapfrogging. We did not think camping like this would occur. Camping is currently done by sitting 15+ at a safe spot in each zone, many of which are AFK or tabbed out playing other games. My perception of the rules when they were created was that if you were going to camp you needed to have 15 people actually at the keyboard and active. I have sent PM's to Developers suggesting where the "raid target" should be moved to in order to try and make sure that happens.

Vox: 3 spawn Ice giant room just beyond the Door
Naggy: Stone Spider room
Inny/Maestro: On the fountain
Draco: In the GY where TTs spawn
CT: In the frightfinger house.

I personally do not have a problem with camping a spawn if x amount of people are really going to be at the keyboard, active, and waiting. I think if we move where you need to be then maintaining the AFK camping will be near impossible to achieve. Those spots aren't perfect but its just something I thought of. Maybe if the mobs who spawn in that area normally, repop when the boss spawns that could work too. I know that's not classic at all but neither is most of what we are here talking about. In regards to defining where the "raid target" is. Its something that the leadership of several other guilds likes so far.

Ultimately, I would like to see an FFA with no trains/KS. As its been discussed GM involvement would be inevitable due to people either truly training/KSing or just outright lying about it. What if the punishments for either of these things were so severe you needed to darn near be 100% certain you are correct in whatever accusation you are trying to make. Let's say in order to request GM involvement you needed 3 people willing to vouch, 1 being an officer. If the people petitioning are found to be untruthful or lying they lose their levels and become level 1? Same goes for whoever is performing the actual offense. If people were to fear the consequence of being wrong, or doing wrong maybe GMs would be called in a lot less...something harsh like this might make someone really question if they are going to go that far. The more Devs are bugged, the less they are Dev'ing and the longer we wait for more content.

In closing, Nizzarr, I'm sorry if this derailed your topic a little bit and I am sorry it was so long. I just wanted to be clear with my explanation. Again, I am open to continue to talk about ideas and solutions, because this is definitely not what I signed up for here. However, I do not think rotation is the logical solution...at least not yet, I think there is still several things we can try first. But by all means lets continue to talk about it. As I said above, please get everyone in DA leadership on the same page and start chipping away at this.

Xzerion

[Taluvill]

OMG so i have like the easiest solution to this whole thing!!

Just make it so that if your afk for more than... lets say, 30 minutes, you get kicked off the server? That way, there will be less camping and more mobilizing.

I say 30 minutes because it will mess with spawns in guk or other things that people like to afk camp and pop in every 20 or so minutes for the kill.

If you could limit the afk kicking rule to the raid zones by some miracle of a coding thing, we could essentially solve all of the issues. Because in reality, the system right now doesnt do anything but work for AFK campers and batphones, and passing role calls.

want to mobilize, "try my product" -- Karsten

Edit: The only problem i can see with my thing is that both top guilds have 15 or so that can actively camp stuff. Raise the numbers to 25 people required to camp, or 30 like snifs said, and in that sense we can retire camping forever. Because i hate it! even though im a druid and will have to camp/track anyways!!

<--- Do not speak for my guild btw

I should have been a mage with 1/3 of the population when the server opened -_-

[Jify]

i think its time for DA and IB to start getting along and working shit out this fucking fighting everyday about every fucking mob is turning into bullshit competition is good but lets all be real people here and work shit out

Sorry. I know this goes against the "don't start a flame war" mentality, but COME ON! I can't honestly take your serious bud.

This is coming from the same Raren that joins our vent channel, spams/screams in our ears, and gets banned/kicked on a daily basis. If you wanted to play nice and work stuff out you'd stop acting like a spoiled child. If any members of IB did that they'd be severely reprimanded.

You and Modus alone have stained much of DA's reputation, I've had interaction with many DA members, they are great people! You two, not so much.

Sorry for interrupting the discussion at hand! Please continue!

[Ayen]

IB has this ridiculous fascination with mobilization. They have it in there head that this some how implies skill when you can "mobilize" to a mob. But the sad reality is and what people don't understand its the same thing as camping a mob out. Only your logging out your character in the next zone over or same zone as the next due raid target. Then you wait for a text to log on. Congratulations on being unemployed and available to log on. Dont forget, it takes skill to be unemployed.



Ayen "Dark Ascension"

[astarothel]

Just make it so that if your afk for more than... lets say, 30 minutes, you get kicked off the server? That way, there will be less camping and more mobilizing.

Tabbing in once every 30 minutes, jumping, and tabbing back out won't really solve anything with the extended respawn timers on things. The best solution I feel would end most of the camping on the part of everyone except the trackers.

[Taluvill]

Tabbing in once every 30 minutes, jumping, and tabbing back out won't really solve anything with the extended respawn timers on things. The best solution I feel would end most of the camping on the part of everyone except the trackers.

It would, unless you make it 30 required active members to camp stuff. 30 people cant honestly sit there and tab every 30 mins.

If you could limit it to just raid zones, then 15 minutes would be sufficient.

[Xzerion]

Taluvil,

Thats a great idea but a g15 keyboard or some other macro program im sure could get around it. I kicked that idea around myself.

[Taluvill]

Hmmm. never thought about that and i have a macroable mouse = P

Damn. Back to square one.

[Taluvill]

BTW Xz,

Love your ideas to move the raid targets. One of the only issues i can see is aoe's and aggroing other mobs.

A fear from the stone spider room for naggers would mess with BnB groups, and enough spiders/beetles can kill any raid force while they are fighting a dragon.

Love the idea, just any implementation of it seems like it would suck for naggy

[Xzerion]

I didnt mean you actually had to fight them there....just that if you wanted to camp or have a claim you need to have moved there or been sitting there. I think it works great to deter a camp...I dont really know about racing to those spots though...shrug maybe we can conjure up some ideas

[astarothel]

IB has this ridiculous fascination with mobilization. They have it in there head that this some how implies skill when you can "mobilize" to a mob. But the sad reality is and what people don't understand its the same thing as camping a mob out. Only your logging out your character in the next zone over or same zone as the next due raid target. Then you wait for a text to log on.

Nowhere near the same thing. For example, for all the cries of Leatherfoot Raider Skullcap exploits, they still remain a cheaper way to mobilize. 350-500p for an instant port to WC, then from there you can snag a port from a guildie to wherever? 350-500p is nothing in the long run compared to getting a raid target. You don't have to be camped out 15 feet away to mobilize fast, you just have to think ahead (Vox excepted, because getting to perma sucks).

[Taluvill]

I didnt mean you actually had to fight them there....just that if you wanted to camp or have a claim you need to have moved there or been sitting there. I think it works great to deter a camp...I dont really know about racing to those spots though...shrug maybe we can conjure up some ideas

Agreed. But people wont sit there i dont think. there are ways around any system i guess.

WTB first to engage variance ffa tbh, except that will mess things up too with rogues/monks/necros just getting first aggro on crap by sitting/fding on spawn points

[Ektar]

OMG so i have like the easiest solution to this whole thing!!

Just make it so that if your afk for more than... lets say, 30 minutes, you get kicked off the server? That way, there will be less camping and more mobilizing.

Yes, because imposing such a rule on people uninvolved in this bullshit is what they want to do.

Raiding solutions cannot affect the rest of gameplay. Danth and Lara do no raid - Danth and Lara play to kill frogs and dogs. Do you want Danth and Lara to have to move their mouses every 29 minutes?

And no - increasing the number to 30 is just silly. I haven't read any posts I didn't wish to so maybe this was touched on? Naggy can be done with 2 groups maybe? Definitely 3. Why should we camp him with 5?

[Taluvill]

And no - increasing the number to 30 is just silly. I haven't read any posts I didn't wish to so maybe this was touched on? Naggy can be done with 2 groups maybe? Definitely 3. Why should we camp him with 5?


Well, the idea would be that you dont camp him at all???

I thought thats what we were all trying to get rid of

[Ektar]

Agreed. But people wont sit there i dont think. there are ways around any system i guess.

WTB first to engage variance ffa tbh, except that will mess things up too with rogues/monks/necros just getting first aggro on crap by sitting/fding on spawn points

rogues/necros/monks? how about paladins sitting on the spawn point with a raid behind him? :p

[Phallax]

Hmmm. never thought about that and i have a macroable mouse = P

Damn. Back to square one.

g15s and macro programs cant do everythin tho, only spam a certain button/click correct?

So the 30 mins afk timer is based on your /loc if you dont move from any given /loc for 30 minutes this would boot you to char select. You can macro up and down all you want but theres always that chance of lag hitting and your macro putting you in a dangerous situation that you really wouldnt want to risk. Safe spot in fear? lag up and walk to far, agro and wipe your guild, GG.

I actually like the 30 min afk boot option if the Devs were willing to add it, tho its not classic.

[Starklen]

From page 1 of this thread, you can see the mindless insults spit from the drawling retards of IB.

Congratulations on being unemployed and available to log on. Dont forget, it takes skill to be unemployed.


?

[Taluvill]

g15s and macro programs cant do everythin tho, only spam a certain button/click correct?

So the 30 mins afk timer is based on your /loc if you dont move from any given /loc for 30 minutes this would boot you to char select. You can macro up and down all you want but theres always that chance of lag hitting and your macro putting you in a dangerous situation that you really wouldnt want to risk. Safe spot in fear? lag up and walk to far, agro and wipe your guild, GG.

Exactly. I use wsad to move. I think if someone macroed W or S to their thing and moved back or forward every 30 minutes, they could potentially die or wipe there raid.

A or D would not change your loc... soooo

Edit: although im sure you could set up a nifty macro to move forward a step, then back every other 30 min thing. so i guess it wouldnt work

[astarothel]

sit/stand :|

[Ektar]

Well, the idea would be that you dont camp him at all???

I thought thats what we were all trying to get rid of

I'm not pointing any fingers... but DA has a lot of members to do just that (I made a funny... can you figure it out?).

Agreeing to this rule just makes a guild with a lot of members able to camp it while a smaller guild unable to do it. Make it 100 people and maybe it's something to consider. Camping him with 100 people would sure make camping less likely.

[Ektar]

hint. it was a mythoxxus joke.

[Taluvill]

I'm not pointing any fingers... but DA has a lot of members to do just that (I made a funny... can you figure it out?).

Agreeing to this rule just makes a guild with a lot of members able to camp it while a smaller guild unable to do it. Make it 100 people and maybe it's something to consider. Camping him with 100 people would sure make camping less likely.

"I'm not pointing any fingers... but IB has a lot of members to do just that (I made a funny... can you figure it out?)."

Fixed. But in all seriousness, any argument either guild makes is extremely hypocritical to say the least, so i find this extremely funny in the end.

I do want us to find a solution to this nonsense though. i really do.]

Edit: AFK for a bit. I'll be back to fix this crap like a golden e peen of shining awesomeness in a little bit.

[Gwence]

IB has this ridiculous fascination with mobilization. They have it in there head that this some how implies skill when you can "mobilize" to a mob. But the sad reality is and what people don't understand its the same thing as camping a mob out. Only your logging out your character in the next zone over or same zone as the next due raid target. Then you wait for a text to log on. Congratulations on being unemployed and available to log on. Dont forget, it takes skill to be unemployed.



Ayen "Dark Ascension"

If it is indeed the same thing I would think the majority of your members would enjoy utilizing the 1 tracker then moving to the zone instead of having to sit in the zone days at a time.

What you dont seem to understand (or maybe you do and dont want to admit) is that you stand no chance at killing anything if you dont have your entire guild in a zone days before a spawn. What's even more pathetic is your zergathon force has never once had an upper hand on a spawn cycle vs IB. You concede that you cannot move on a target fast enough so you camp it, it's fine I dont have a problem with the practice, I have a problem with your claims that you can match us at "mobilizing" if you had to. You can't, if you could you would. Simple stuff, just admit it and I wont ever say another word about your mass recrutiing newbzergathonage camping extravaganza's.

Xzerion is trying to be nice and work stuff out as best he can, but he is completely right when he says your guild has no organization whatsoever, same as I said back on like page 9 of this thread.

[Grimfan]

So, one thing I remember doing in Classic EQ, which expanded into Kunark, Luclin, PoP, etc, was dividing high end spawns on a rotation, and then taking the lower end ones and making them a mobile first to encounter FFA. So if you were to rate them on a scale, for instance Inny and CT on rotation, and the rest on a first to encounter FFA it gives you the best of both worlds I think. I didn't read through the entire thread, because I'm new and I don't know the drama, but I think asking for GM interference on things is just a little much. People should be mature enough to allow the guild with the first actual encounter on a boss to have their attempt. Isn't that what it comes down to anyway?

EDIT: I guess you would put the entire plane on Rotation? I'm not sure on the logistics of it all.

[Aeolwind]

Back on topic, please, trolls.

[Xzerion]

I never said that. Quit flaming guys

[nicemace]

g15s and macro programs cant do everythin tho, only spam a certain button/click correct?

So the 30 mins afk timer is based on your /loc if you dont move from any given /loc for 30 minutes this would boot you to char select. You can macro up and down all you want but theres always that chance of lag hitting and your macro putting you in a dangerous situation that you really wouldnt want to risk. Safe spot in fear? lag up and walk to far, agro and wipe your guild, GG.

I actually like the 30 min afk boot option if the Devs were willing to add it, tho its not classic.

g 15 is fully customizable macros

in wow i had mine queue for BG, click the enter battle button, then move around a couple of squares every now and then so i could AFK honour.

if you put in a kick after idle for xyz, it will just be macros that stop it from kicking in. its hell easy to do.

[eqdruid76]

So, one thing I remember doing in Classic EQ, which expanded into Kunark, Luclin, PoP, etc, was dividing high end spawns on a rotation, and then taking the lower end ones and making them a mobile first to encounter FFA. So if you were to rate them on a scale, for instance Inny and CT on rotation, and the rest on a first to encounter FFA it gives you the best of both worlds I think. I didn't read through the entire thread, because I'm new and I don't know the drama, but I think asking for GM interference on things is just a little much. People should be mature enough to allow the guild with the first actual encounter on a boss to have their attempt. Isn't that what it comes down to anyway?

EDIT: I guess you would put the entire plane on Rotation? I'm not sure on the logistics of it all.

That's the problem. No one is sure on the logistics. I'm not sure any one of us can tell our asses from a hole in the ground...

[Phallax]

g 15 is fully customizable macros

in wow i had mine queue for BG, click the enter battle button, then move around a couple of squares every now and then so i could AFK honour.

if you put in a kick after idle for xyz, it will just be macros that stop it from kicking in. its hell easy to do.

Yea but the thing is, how many able campers per guild has a g15 or comparable keyboard? Im gonna say not enough to keep the numbers. And as always a lag spike at the wrong time can make some bad results.

[Jify]

I thoroughly support the "Kicked after inactive for 30min" movement!

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Warning: Incoming wall of text with reasoned arguments and no insults or finger pointing. If you are reading this thread to enjoy the drama and munch popcorn, just skip my post.

Even the people who can be logged in nearly 24 horus a day because they work from home, or don't work, or whatever... even those people want to play the game. They want to camp an item or help PL a friend, or play an alt, or maybe just log out and do something else with their time. They don't want to park themselves and alt tab out to surf the web, or play another game, or watch TV/movies, or do housework. They do it now for one simple reason: Under the current rules, it produces results.

Most people will do whatever works that is within the letter of the rules and within their personal ability (read: available time as well as skill set).

So, if we have collectively decided that camping is a "Bad Thing" tm. Then any solution has to do more than wave an index finger and say "camping is bad, don't do it". We need to change the incentives so that camping is more painful, or just doesn't produce better results than other strategies.

AFK camping only works because the current rules grant a guaranteed first shot. So, my first proposal is to totally chuck those rules and go to a FFA with one basic rule.

First to aggro + 15 minute limit to mass engage.

Whoever can get the first aggro on the mob has 15 min to maintain aggro and have his or her guild engage. As long as the battle has begun in earnest (I'll define this as being tanked instead of kited) within 15 min of the first aggro, and there was an unbroken chain of aggro by members of that first guild through the whole 15 minutes, other guilds must back off until the first guild gets the kill or wipes. If the first guild wipes completely and the mob loses aggro, then he becomes FFA again.

If someone can successfully kite a boss for 7 or 8 minutes while his guild mobilizes, then that's cool with me, because it is definitely a skill related to gameplay in EQ. Anyway, the kiting provision is more of a catch-all that is thinking forward to some of the outdoor encounters coming in Kunark and Velious. We don't want one guy from guild X kiting Talendor around for a half an hour waiting for his guild to log in and port over. There has to be a limit. However, I think 15 min is reasonable.

The traditional complaints about FFA are Training, KSing, and excessive need for GM involvement. Obviously, training and KSing are already against server rules. They should be the only reason to involve a GM, and as per the devs, this should be a rare event. They want us to solve things by ourselves. So, how do we make sure that both real KSing and false reports to the GMs of KSing when it didn't happen are rare events. Again, the answer is in the incentives. The penalties for training/ks'ing AND for falsely reporting those charges when they aren't true should both be severe, perhaps a one month IP and account ban, or de-level to 20 or something similarly harsh.

I really believe those few measures (perhaps with a slight adjustment to the time limits) would be enough to ensure equal opportunity with limited camping. The camping becomes much less attractive when the first crack is not guaranteed just for showing up first and when they campers' eyeballs have to be on the screen. I would also strongly favor reducing the variance to +0 to 12 hours. This would still help the spawns rotate around the clock. However, with a more narrow window, there will be less of a pressure to maintain a constant presence in a zone for days... maybe just a few hours. Again, I cannot stress enough how different THIS form of camping would be.... first to aggro and fully engage within 15 min is a very different standard. The people doing the camping actually have to be capable of completing the kill or at least holding on while the rest of their guildmates mobilize, and they will actually have to be at the keyboard with eyeballs on screen, or else someone else who is waiting on the spawn might get first aggro.

However, as much as I want that to happen, I am afraid it might not. The devs might not want to get that harsh with the penalties in the first week or two of this system being in place. That deterrent is vital to this plan. After 3 or 4 people get deleveled or IP banned for a month, people will stop KSing and will be too afraid to level unfounded accusations at others. After that, I believe there would be very few calls to GMs. This satisfies their requirements. As for the players, we will all get a shot. If we can get a force to the mob when it's up or about to spawn and get the first aggro, we can all get a chance to kill it. Then the game is all about keeping solid intel on when targets were killed, when they are due, scouting, picking your battles, mobilizing to your chosen target, and having a good pull team that can get first aggro (or back off when they lose so they don't get banned).

I have a second proposal that is just a tweak of the rules we have, but I don't care for it anywhere near as much. If my first proposal goes up in flames or is ignored, I may post the second one.

[Derpus]

poppycock!
/pops monocle

[Taluvill]

Yea but the thing is, how many able campers per guild has a g15 or comparable keyboard? Im gonna say not enough to keep the numbers. And as always a lag spike at the wrong time can make some bad results.

You dont HAVE to have a g15, it just makes it easier. We had programs that can do anything for you if you can write the code. We used them for Darkfall to insta loot pvp corpses.

The macro problem would be rampant.

[Pyrocat]

First to aggro + 15 minute limit to mass engage.

Whoever can get the first aggro on the mob has 15 min to maintain aggro and have his or her guild engage. As long as the battle has begun in earnest (I'll define this as being tanked instead of kited) within 15 min of the first aggro, and their was an unbroken chain of aggro by members of that first guild through the whole 15 minutes, other guilds must back off until the first guild gets the kill or wipes. If the first guild wipes completely and the mob loses aggro, then he becomes FFA again.

If someone can successfully kite a boss for 7 or 8 minutes while his guild mobilizes, then that's cool with me, because it is definitely a skill related to gameplay in EQ. Anyway, the kiting provision is more of a catch-all that is thinking forward to some of the outdoor encounters coming in Kunark and Velious. We don't want one guy from guild X kiting Talendor around for a half an hour waiting for his guild to log in and port over. There has to be a limit. However, I think 15 min is reasonable.

Holy fuck, I think you might have something there.

[Aadill]

With some tweaking, Suicide Kings might be what we need for a fair yet competitive ruleset.

The suggestions that have come about in this thread are at least providing multiple paths to help us take a step in the right direction!

[Qaedain]

Dumesh's answer is the most reasonable proposed thus far.

[Reiker]

Fuck, Alawen Everywhere is the new Hasbinbad.

[Holey]

i dont get why people dont see PuRaids...
theres one right now in PoHate with 3 different guilds..
Trans,Dutchmasters,Divinity..

why doesn't everyone just work together on trash mobs rather than qq and just help eachother out? this raid went very well as i should say.

[astarothel]

Very little of the debate has been about trash. I honestly think its being cleared more at this point because guilds are required to hold a presence in the zone than for the planar at this point. "Hey its up, let's kill some junk to stave off massive boredom", more than anything. Flip back to trackers rather than camping forces and I think it'd open up a lot more for guilds and pugs that want to just trash clear.

[Taluvill]

Fuck, Alawen Everywhere is the new Hasbinbad.

Haha

[Durison]

http://www.imgshack.info/images/qw6jmi9w3yz5yjd1p10s.jpg

[Icecometus]

Trans raided Hate tonight. So how do you like your crow, rare or well done?

Tastes like chicken. Welcome back to the show :)

[bullet]

Stupid n00bs

[mitic]

***Please debate this*** Guilds will have 2 hours to kill their target, any numbers of wipe is allowed.

EXAMPLE: a dracoliche spawns, Divinity has 2 hours to kill it. ...

***Please debate this*** Cazic thule, You have 5 hours to kill him from spawn.



if you want a guildfriendly boss-rotation u gota make it timezone-friendly too

remedy as european guild wont (most of the time) be able to kill a bossmob within 2 hours upon spawn since them bosses are mostly killed on us-primetime.

make it within 24 hours once boss is spawned and iam all for it.

[nerfed]

Actually most bosses are currently killed within an hour of their spawn regardless of time zone.

[mitic]

Actually most bosses are currently killed within an hour of their spawn regardless of time zone.

yep, but by my understanding we are trying to find a solution to accomodate EVERY guild, am i rite or am i rite?

[Pheer]

if you want a guildfriendly boss-rotation u gota make it timezone-friendly too

remedy as european guild wont (most of the time) be able to kill a bossmob within 2 hours upon spawn since them bosses are mostly killed on us-primetime.

make it within 24 hours once boss is spawned and iam all for it.

the whole point of it only being a small time window is so that the guild in the rotation actually has to put in some work to track and mobilize for those targets, not just have it spawn and sit there until you happen to get around to killing it


PS. rotations are retarded

[mitic]

the whole point of it only being a small time window is so that the guild in the rotation actually has to put in some work to track and mobilize for those targets, not just have it spawn and sit there until you happen to get around to killing it


PS. rotations are retarded

if this is what the op intended then keep it as is since this "new idea" will only help the current campers/batphoners even more but not the rest of the server since every guild other than DA or IB wont log in within 2 or 6 hours to kill a boss.

24 pages for nothing, devs can close the thread imo

[Sslaesha]

IB has this ridiculous fascination with mobilization. They have it in there head that this some how implies skill when you can "mobilize" to a mob. But the sad reality is and what people don't understand its the same thing as camping a mob out. Only your logging out your character in the next zone over or same zone as the next due raid target. Then you wait for a text to log on. Congratulations on being unemployed and available to log on. Dont forget, it takes skill to be unemployed.



Ayen "Dark Ascension"

Mobilization and camping are the exact same thing. This is what you say in your post. So let me get this straight:

1. DA loses at mobilization.
2. DA changes server rules to camping.
3. DA loses at camping.

So if mobilization and camping are the exact same thing, and you lost at mobilization, what gave you the bright idea to change the rules to camping?
That, and the fact that mobilization and camping aren't even close to the same thing has me thoroughly confused.

So with your post, you're either A) Contradicting yourself, or, B) Making some sort of desperate attempt at flaming IB by quickly exiting the topic and accusing our entire guild of being unemployed, and making yourself look uneducated (in the sense that you have no clue as to the differences between mobilization and camping) in the process. So which is it?

I'm dying to know.

[Wrei]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk View Post

First to aggro + 15 minute limit to mass engage.

Whoever can get the first aggro on the mob has 15 min to maintain aggro and have his or her guild engage. As long as the battle has begun in earnest (I'll define this as being tanked instead of kited) within 15 min of the first aggro, and their was an unbroken chain of aggro by members of that first guild through the whole 15 minutes, other guilds must back off until the first guild gets the kill or wipes. If the first guild wipes completely and the mob loses aggro, then he becomes FFA again.

If someone can successfully kite a boss for 7 or 8 minutes while his guild mobilizes, then that's cool with me, because it is definitely a skill related to gameplay in EQ. Anyway, the kiting provision is more of a catch-all that is thinking forward to some of the outdoor encounters coming in Kunark and Velious. We don't want one guy from guild X kiting Talendor around for a half an hour waiting for his guild to log in and port over. There has to be a limit. However, I think 15 min is reasonable.

Wow, this post alone may warrant a new thread just to clear the shit out of this thread. In fact Dumesh I suggest you do that right now before your idea gets flooded by trollish post from both sides. This solution is so sexy on so many different levels, it makes my head hurt at 4am.

People may debate about the minutes to engage, especially for encounters like CT etc... but nothing that would be unworkable. Why not merge it with some of the other suggestions in this thread.

1. 1 Hour afk = booted from server (this should fix the non raiders problem of getting booted randomly for being afk). Honestly if your going to be afk for more than an hour just log back on.

2. First to engage rule 15min, exactly like Dumesh outlined with a small adjustment here and there for specific bosses that requires planar clears.

3. Increase Time variance even more to + or - 7 ~ 10 days. Add in a flat 8 hours before variance starts on time of the death of the boss (Emil's idea). To further discourage camping even with these rules.

4. Offer draconian consequences for lying / fabricating incidents to GM. If proof was ever found that X person was guilty of making shit up, go beyond the 1 month ban. PERMA BAN of IP and account, repeat offenses from full members of X guild = dissolution of sketchy guild.

================================Warning potential trolling section=

Now I can't resist to not point out the irony of this thread. Let's recap a bit here....

1. Server pops: Dedicated players grind to 50, first generation IB is born. Pew pew begins, bosses die. Second generation players look up and want to kill bosses.

2. Transcendence emerges! Hey we want phat loots too zomg. Not enough skilled player base, Trans adapts with a looser recruitment policy.

3. Smack talk begins IB goes head to head vs Trans. Trans loses...

4. Trans leadership: Hey we gotta get rotation going otherwise we'll never get a phat loot to drop. GM brought in and made to understand that it's the fairest way to deal with the situation. None of this is made aware to IB.

5. IB gets blind sided in Sol B on Nagafen. GM sets precedent of 14 day ban if we don't GTFO out of Sol B, enforced GM rotation up in place between 2 guilds.

6. Trans is happy. They don't need to work for mobs, mobs being breast fed to them.

7. IB stews but sucks it up. Bitching is ok, getting banned is not.

8. Drama happens! Divinity Emerges! WTF who told those guys they can raid too? Concept hard to swallow ;) ..

9. Divinity wants equal rights, right to marry, to vote... want the furniture as well. Given the choice of getting no mob to getting 1 mob every 2 weeks, Trans decides that it's now a "we're looking out for the whole server guild".

10. PR War begins... IB=immature,unemployed,hackers,GMfavored etc.. Trans=Unskilled,unemployed,whiners,liars,GMfavored etc... Div=we are not IB or Trans so we must be the good guys.

11. Come on guys, play nice! We all can get 1 boss every 2 weeks... (no thoughts as to how this works for key mobs). Divinity getting restless of not getting the ball passed to them.

12. Gothic Circle emerges! The guild that broke the rotation's back... Nizzarr working hard to find solution to remove rotations.

13. GM Decree the new age of time variance has arrived! Everyone rejoice!! Trash talking resume, Trans convinced they are better than IB, much trolling on forums between both guilds.

14. IB once again emerges on top, how dare they those basterds!

15. Trans officially stops the "we're better than you" trash talk to "dude this shit is 10 years old" to "what about the little guy?? Don't be greedy! Go back to rotation!

16. Douchebags from both IB and Trans being kicked out during the era known as the Troll wars...

17. Trans waves white flag goes to casual status.. All is well in IB's kingdom.

18. Fish Bait emerges! Scanner on douchebags exceeds 9000! If you thought the dbags from IB and Trans were bad, you haven't seen Fish Bait yet! FB determined to be the bad ass kid that won't agree to anything.

19. Funny period in guild relations, we found a guild that we hate even more than each other. Guild relations at an all time high due to FB being such genuine A-holes.

20. My break time! RL finally catches up even to the "unemployed,living at mom's basement,slob". Gone for a few months, no one cares /cry

21. FB implodes! Dark Ascension emerges! FB name is so bad that they decided to re-invent themselves. Smart PR!

22. DA R&D people hard at work to figure out how to beat genuine mobilization... tired of losing mobs to those a-holes from IB. Suddenly someone from DA (Salty?) has an epiphany. Let's just camp at the spot! Must recruit zerg force in order to maintain multiple camping targets.

23. IB boggled by the camping strategy. Realizes that going half retard (responding to text on a boss pop) is not the ultimate raiding strategy, apparently going full retard (of afk camping) beats mobilization.

24. IB leadership decides that going full retard as well is better than not getting any more bosses. Some old members go into semi retirement, disgusted with the current raiding game.

25. IB Full retard vs DA Full retard = IB still wins for the most part with a lot less people we might add.

26. Nizzarr back from retirement! Expected sky to be up! Bummed out it's not out yet. Expects flower petals and a huge party to honour his return. Nothing happens except a dumb loot incident (I'm with you on that issue Nizzarr). Nizzarr leaves unhappy! DA probably on their knees to recruit him, Nizzarr joins DA! Goes from applicant to officer! Much rejoicing in DA land as they actually recruited someone who has good game knowledge!

27. Nizzarr reflects on current situation of being outcamped by IB. Getting sick and tired of losing at whatever game we're playing by those basterds.

28. PR Spin machine going up! Proposal post comes up, to find a solution for the betterment of the whole server (We got everyone's interest at heart card) *wink wink*

29. Much trolling ensues on "constructive" thread to figure out the best way to shift momentum back to DA.

=============End of troll section=============================

Sorry, I really shouldn't have posted the trolling section but just couldn't resist at all the fake PR spin going on here. Like I said, Dumesh I hope you make another thread for your proposal... The original 4 points is my contribution to your post.

PS: It's 5am! Ignore grammar/spelling for all you internet grammar warriors!~

[Biotodd]

Nizzar:

1. If you couldn't handle rotation and I admit I hated it too back when the server Pop was 1/3 what it is now how the hell are you gonna be happy with a rotation now? Seriously back then it was IB and Trans, then Divinity came and wanted to play as well ...then ugg a 4th and rotation falls apart.
Now with the pop at 750-850+ will easily be 10+ guilds looking for a spot on that rotation how are you gonna handle splitting a possible 6 real spawns for rotation(8 spawns I know but I don't count Maestro sorry monks) per week?
Basically I'm saying whatever the system is even if YOU designed it you will complain and whine sooner or later....

2. You guys created the scenario we are in now with the camping and as a tracker I THANK YOU for letting the rest the of the players really appreciate what it is that trackers do/did for their respective guilds..... Finally people without a track button get to see how bad it sucks having to wait endless hours of boredom to get a mob...welcome to the world of druids and Zilo people!!!

GMS:
If guildwar was in game I bet we could solve this very quickly at every spawn point on our own.... but if you want to be classic then the gm's would have to quit showing up everytime a guild cries that their vagina hurts and actually punish the people who cause issues...I dunno maybe try perma banning people who train other guilds, get out of line in ooc/shout with gm's about the decisions they make...seriously have seen people say some serious shitty things to certain gm's who just command 0 respect on this server(you know who you are names aren't needed) Really just force the players to work it out on their own and quit interfering make the players quit being whinny little kids and act like adults..... classic eq was simple either follow the servers agreed upon rules on the honor system or it was FFA.... Never before have I seen gm's randomly show up at raid mobs to mediate so many issues that simply didn't need a gm there to handle.... you have become a crutch for the server to some extent with your constant involvement with raiding....
There is zero incentive for the guilds to work this out simply because if a guild cries foul a gm shows up and makes a decision, then both guilds can easily claim they were right ...the losing guild still claims to be right but gm's favored the other guild for whatever reason and the guild awarded the mob obviously claims they are right....Maybe try this if Guild A claims they were trained by guild B check the logs if they werent actually trained punish them for wasting your time, if they were trained punish Guild B for doing it...create an incentive to make players work together or they never will

I HAVE NO SOLUTION FOR THE CAMPING ISSUE, on my server it was common place to have more than 1 guild at a raid target waiting for it to spawn.... who ever did the most damage won...PERIOD

This Carebear eq sucks, time for people to grow up you can't always win, there shouldn't be trophies for second place, PuG raids never got top tier raid mobs who you fooling...PuG raids didn't even really exsist until Kunark, when people needed epic pieces until then it was all locked down by guilds....

Whatever Im done " The Dude Abides"

Gonna go hide from Nizzar and Dork Ascension's CAREBEAR STARE .....

Blaine

[nerfed]

FFA. I want some epic trains. Can we hire Abacabb as a mercenary?

[Omnimorph]

FFA. I want some epic trains. Can we hire Abacabb as a mercenary?

Mercs aren't classic! :p

GMs used to just despawn mobs if there was drama. It was tough but fair, no one could claim favouritism then!

[astarothel]

make it within 24 hours once boss is spawned and iam all for it.

So you want to make a guild that could do it immediately wait on account of another guild not being able to get their shit together for up to 24 hours? Yeah....

[mitic]

So you want to make a guild that could do it immediately wait on account of another guild not being able to get their shit together for up to 24 hours? Yeah....


lets be clear on this, other guilds else than DA or IB do in fact have a real life.

all this QQ about camping boss mobs with new suggestions to wait 2 or 6 hours before enganging wont solve anything else than still helping those 2 guilds and leaving everyone else out on bosses.

IF the server wants a fair play for EVERYONE, then we (yes, as a community)have to make a calendar system. if a guild wont make it to kill a boss on his spawn-day, the guild of the next week gets the shot.

[Aadill]

================================Warning potential trolling section=

Now I can't resist to not point out the irony of this thread. Let's recap a bit here....

=============End of troll section=============================

Sorry, I really shouldn't have posted the trolling section but just couldn't resist at all the fake PR spin going on here. Like I said, Dumesh I hope you make another thread for your proposal... The original 4 points is my contribution to your post.

PS: It's 5am! Ignore grammar/spelling for all you internet grammar warriors!~

This sounds like a Chinese take on the Korean War. Please keep this kind of stuff out of the discussion.

1. 1 Hour afk = booted from server (this should fix the non raiders problem of getting booted randomly for being afk). Honestly if your going to be afk for more than an hour just log back on.

2. First to engage rule 15min, exactly like Dumesh outlined with a small adjustment here and there for specific bosses that requires planar clears.

3. Increase Time variance even more to + or - 7 ~ 10 days. Add in a flat 8 hours before variance starts on time of the death of the boss (Emil's idea). To further discourage camping even with these rules.

4. Offer draconian consequences for lying / fabricating incidents to GM. If proof was ever found that X person was guilty of making shit up, go beyond the 1 month ban. PERMA BAN of IP and account, repeat offenses from full members of X guild = dissolution of sketchy guild.

I would like to address each point and say that while I disagree with them, the reasons vary greatly from guild perspectives, serverwide population perspectives, and even in terms of GM involvement.

1. Having a hard server kick for AFKing is game changing for people other than raiders. If the server was running on a cable modem in someone's cellar and you want to keep the amount of data transfer down by keeping the population low, then fine. This server has a fairly pro setup and there is no reason to boot people off the server. If, perhaps, Rogean deems it reasonable to make it so as the server population grows, then so be it. This, however, is a "feature" that would have to be decided not by the players but by the GM staff. As the ruleset stands there is nothing against AFK camping. If they implemented this, their own server rules would be moot.

Something to note: a roll call clause was put into effect in the player made rulset to allow a guild to take rights from another guild if they were AFK to the point that they could not meet the minimum requirements to claim a raid force when a mob spawns. It has been used multiple times with little to no success. That tells me that there are enough people active that adding this rule will not alter the gamescape much.

2. Dumesh's idea still focuses on FFA and is only really applicable, as he said, to outside boss encounters. There are no outside boss encounters right now that are appropriate for this sort of thing unless you have very particular stipulations for CT. For future encounters it may be useful but you're relying on everyone to have the same timer, and to respect it. Not to mention the fact that by attempting to steal agro, you're pretty much going against server rules of attempting to KS engaged mobs. Find me a situation where you're not going to have an opposing raid force attempting to agro the mob off of the original kiter. If, on the flipside, you are saying that once agro a guild would have 15 minutes to get ready and engage while the kiter(s) kite, we might be on to something. I will say that for all of the outside dragons in Kunark and Velious, this is a pretty good idea. A guild can claim the spawn by actually having it agroed. If their guild fails to mobilize and engage the target within a set time period, they would lose their claim. No other guild will be able to interact with the dragon unless the kiters from the first guild die. I would expect some level of whining and foul play, though. Damaging a mob to make it summon would be the biggest offense, here. In the event of that, I hope the guild with claim would be ready to engage very quickly, but it defeats the level of respect that would need to be present for this rule to work. If we can calm down the current raiding environment, I would consider this one hell of a pro idea for later expansions and hope that it could discussed in the next guild meeting!


3. Increasing the spawn variance would be interesting but you're severely limiting the extent to which a raiding guild with the "kill the boss" mentality will even bother to log in. Whether or not this type of guild truly exists isn't apparent as of right now as the raiding climate is still in a state of flux. A flat timer before spawn variance even starts only pushes the window further out. Again, the same issue would exist. Since that timer would be known (or could be deduced) it only serves to increase the time between kills. If enough guilds are hot and bothered by the idea of a god or dragon kill, only seeing 2-3 a month is going to piss off a lot of people. On the flipside, this does make dragon and god loot more rare. I'd expect the market for CoFs and RBGs to maintain a highly inflated price for quite some time if either of these ideas were added. Not to say that it's bad but it would be a reasonable expectation. This would not affect overall "mudflation" too much but we'd still see sore spots in the market. I would go so far as to extend this to the idea that all drops should be more rare, whether through spawn rates or drop rate. It would give the game a more epic feeling, but to what extent is that a bad thing? And it's definitely not classic.

4. I don't even know what this would accomplish. As it stands the only bans that took effect were those when guilds first started bickering, and members of guilds that couldn't stop backtalking to GMs. As far as the events go that have been posted on the forums, any bans that occured were not about making stories up but basically disrespecting the staff. There has been suspicion of some activities between guilds but no hard evidence is available either way and because of that, there is very little to gain from it. If anything I'd see this more as an attempt to foster more intervention from GMs by creating a GM/Guide rule that says, "just ban us if we are terrible people" and not so much a deterrent to any particular actions. Enough things are possible in this game that it takes way too much proof to prove. This is a video game, not a courthouse.

[nerfed]

current rules don't bother me that much but some people are bored of afk camping.

imo, IB, DA rotation, if you're raid is not in the zone within 15 minutes of spawn it is ffa.

Of course other guilds could crash the party by camping per current rules but I haven't seen them camp any bosses yet.