Best solo melee class?

[Revanx22]

I need a break from my druid and would like a melee character that can solo when I can't find a group. What are the best options for that?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I wouldn't suggest Warrior or Rogue, they aren't great at soloing.

If you plan on going into Dungeons, I wouldn't suggest Ranger.

Monk will be a fast leveler if you are going to twink them with Fungi, Tstaff, and a 34% or higher haste item.

If you don't plan on heavily twinking, then go Paladin or Shadowknight. Between the two I prefer Shadowknight, as I enjoy their playstyle more. Paladin is slow and steady. Shadowknight has better exploration options and is more aggressive.

[Barlu]

Do you have a fungi and solid twink gear? If not, it will change things quite a bit. With a fungi and the basics like seahorse belt, good weapons, etc, any melee is going to be easy to solo to 40 or 50 (except rogue is quite a bit rougher).

If you are planning to solo to 60, Monk is easiest followed by Pally. SK can solo to 60 pretty well fear kiting but most people don’t enjoy that. Warrior can too at certain boring camps, but with no ability to split it puts you into killing single pull static mobs. Ranger can fear kite animals but also a really rough road.

[WarpathEQ]

They are all pretty much the same until about 45+, the gear will matter more than the class i.e. Fungi, venomous axe/velium crystal staff, haste item...turn on auto attack, be virtually invincible.

Beyond that Monk will shine the most as they have the best combo of DPS, damage mitigation, mobility, and tools to split up camps. Hybrids right behind them for similar reasons. Warriors are obviously beefy boys and can take hits a long time, not as ideal for some camps. Rogues start to get to a place where you either have to focus on green mobs, significantly boost your twinkage, or both to solo at the higher levels (can still solo to 60 just gets a bit rough)

P.S. Don't forget clerics, I twinked one with a fungi, VCS, and full velious armor and he could melee tank all the way to 50+ (although a lot more of the DPS comes from spells versus melee at the higher end of that range). Also if you are doing no twinking or have a very small budget (no fungi, etc) then I would highly recommend bard. Essentially has all the tools of the other classes combined and not really gear dependent at all, can transition away from melee at the higher end (can transition at the low end too I just assume OP wants some hack and slash gameplay).

[kjs86z2]

What is your budget?

Under 50k: Pally

50-100k: monk

100k+: whatever you want

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I disagree that Pally is easier to level than SK, at least for the first 45 levels or so. SK's have their pet, fear kiting kit, and undead lull by level 15. Paladins don't get root until level 22. So you are basically just a lower DPS warrior with lull and heal for the first 21 levels.

SK's get FD at 30, while Paladins get stun. Fear kiting is better at preventing spellcasting than stun, and FD is easier to use (and less mana intensive) than lulling and rooting, especially if you need to cycle mobs by rooting and camping.

Once a Paladin hits 45 and gets their Kunark clickies, then they really get going.

[bcbrown]

Most of the melee classes can solo decently well at least to 50, so I think it comes down to what you mean by "best" and personal preference/playstyle. Rogue is obviously handicapped solo vs grouping and warrior is limited to single-pull camps by the lack of CC, but the rest of the options have decent toolkits for soloing.

Monk is obviously one of the most powerful classes who will be useful in just about any context, but I've heard a couple people say that they didn't enjoy the leveling process late 50s as much as with other melee. Fear kiting with an SK is pretty powerful but I found it to get quite tiresome after a few levels.

Don't forget clerics, I twinked one with a fungi, VCS, and full velious armor and he could melee tank all the way to 50+ (although a lot more of the DPS comes from spells versus melee at the higher end of that range).

I did this recently and it was some of the most fun I've had in EQ. Mine was significantly less twinked (guard captain's mallet/pwc, 21% haste, Sol Ro armor). Unrest was a ton of fun, and I kept /roleplay on and pretended I was a paladin in groups which gave me a lot of amusement. By around 35-37 though the melee damage dropped off significantly and it felt more like a wizard in plate than a melee class. If you go this route I'd heavily recommend not going dwarf so that you have enough charisma to lull your way around lguk.

Also if you are doing no twinking or have a very small budget (no fungi, etc) then I would highly recommend bard. Essentially has all the tools of the other classes combined and not really gear dependent at all, can transition away from melee at the higher end (can transition at the low end too I just assume OP wants some hack and slash gameplay).

Bard is fantastic. Just because swarming is so efficient doesn't mean it's the only tool in the belt. It's a lot of fun to hack and slash your way to the mid-late 30s, then charming gives you no-downtime efficient fighting the rest of the way. It's a lot of APM, though, and playsessions of more than a couple hours can be exhausting.

I'd like to make a pitch for Ranger, though. It's a class where you really have to commit to the concept. Along with necros I think it's one of the best roleplaying classes in the game; I absolutely love patrolling W Karana for hill giants and protecting the wildlife. It's not a great dungeon crawler, so you may end up retreading a lot of the same ground from playing the druid, but if you love the Karanas it's a class tailor-made for that area.

It's nice having the option to bow down mobs as a change of pace or while passively regenning health. Fear kiting animals is super easy, if tiresome. Track means you can always find the next mob to kill. Getting access to a cheap 50% slow proc makes a huge difference. And going to Stonebrunt Mountains is really fun.

SK's get FD at 30, while Paladins get stun. Fear kiting is better at preventing spellcasting than stun, and FD is easier to use (and less mana intensive) than lulling and rooting, especially if you need to cycle mobs by rooting and camping.

I don't disagree with the overall point but unless you've spent a decent amount of time using your undead lull, FD absolutely sucks when you hit 30. Nothing else uses Abjuration so you're gonna have a low skill. I was getting a dozen fizzles in a row or more which meant I couldn't ever rely on it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't disagree with the overall point but unless you've spent a decent amount of time using your undead lull, FD absolutely sucks when you hit 30. Nothing else uses Abjuration so you're gonna have a low skill. I was getting a dozen fizzles in a row or more which meant I couldn't ever rely on it.

You can train abjuration with endure cold at level 15. It's not a big deal, and FD is worth spending the training time.

[Zuranthium]

SK is best because of the fear kiting + feign death package (Bards don't count as melee).

If you don't like chasing around the things you're fighting all day, then Monk.

Rangers are nice versatile option.

I wouldn't bother with Paladin, their kit is going to get nerfed any month now. The fabricated thing of "lulling your way through a dungeon solo" is not something that really works in Classic EQ. Need to rely on the root+camp method to get through groups of NPC's you don't want to fight, and that will also be less reliable than it currently is, since root is supposed to break more frequently.

[zelld52]

It's monk. Mend is OP

[Keebz]

I've done SK, Monk and Ranger and am working on Paladin.

Ranger is great outdoors. Harmony is busted, having snare and root rules and you can now fear kite forever. Indoors it's a bit more tenuous, but you can animal lull at least. 40's you start to find it rough going toe to toe.

Monk you just lol facetank everything and FD / sneak make it easy enough to get around, if a little more involved. Definitely grab some invis rings and make sure to learn BW for when it matters 50+. Not being able to do anything about common stuff like casters and runners is annoying, but you can work around this. 50+ having to reset when something trivial goes wrong can be draining.

SK you are like monk with much worse dps, but you get CoS to get everywhere. Snare + FD makes spliting automatic, if more time consuming than lull. Fear kiting means you can go for hours nonstop. In some of the level ranges maxing your pet and torching it provide a significant dps boost. Throwing an exe axe on there can be nice as well. Being a large race (esp. one with regen) means your stats are near capped with EC gear. Your dps peters off 50+ but the pet, dots, life taps and good stats make it respectable. DS helps.

Paladin—I'm still working on this one—but lull, root and heals/buffs are clutch. With high CHA lulling is much more time efficient and straight forward than the FD split rigamarole. And when you get extras, instead of resetting, you can just root one at a time and work your way through. LoH helps when this happens. So far stun is OK at stopping spells. I think it will be much more impactful for stopping long but powerful spells like CH when I get there. Without a pet and with elf stats, your dps is trash. I wish I had access to DS, but cheesing pots isn't my goal with this character so I'll have to wait for ring 8. I suspect the DW BP is going to a game changer, but I'm taking my time on the leveling grind. All and all it reminds me of ranger indoors, but with good spells and better AC.

All of the above will work, but I enjoy the knights the most. My monk was mostly face rolling warrior mobs (which I've already done 2x on my warriors) while the spells of the hybrids add more variety. YMMV.

[sajbert]

Any melee class can solo except Rogue unless you hate yourself.

Most melee classes require twinking to not be a miserable experience. Haste, fungi, jboots and a good weapon will go a long way and if you can't afford that at least grab 2 of the four, or you'll pretty much be grouping anyway.

Monk and SK and to an extent rangers (vs animals) do the best solo without significant twinking. Once Kunark clickies come into effect Paladins get decent too thanks to the Deepwater helm.

Twinked monk will still do the best, if nothing else because of their high DPS and mend to help mitigate what little downtime you have.

Once 60 monk, pala and SK offer the most power and ability to grind easier targets in upper level dungeons. Ranger however is pretty dead outside of tracking and raiding. In raids SK is pretty much a dead class.

[Jimjam]

do 1 to 30 a bunch of times and keep playing the character you enjoy most as your druid break.

[Snaggles]

If you just want a melee for a change of pace and another option, a ranger will be the most familiar. They are very fun to gear up and can cast sow at level 30.

You can fear kite animals at 22. I did until 49 and could have to 60 with better gear. The alternative is using a Tolan bracer and killing guards (I did that to 60). The high 50’s are a lot of work but it’s still a fun adventure.

[Goregasmic]

I wouldn't bother with Paladin, their kit is going to get nerfed any month now. The fabricated thing of "lulling your way through a dungeon solo" is not something that really works in Classic EQ. Need to rely on the root+camp method to get through groups of NPC's you don't want to fight, and that will also be less reliable than it currently is, since root is supposed to break more frequently.

IIRC so far they said it will make things more difficult for mobs 50+. You can easily get to 60 without ever touching any of those. Yeah that's a sword of damocles hanging over their head but we don't know how it will look like and they can still split a lot of content with root anyway, being plate and having heals.

[Zuranthium]

Yeah that's a sword of damocles hanging over their head but we don't know how it will look like

Well we do, because the exact classic resist values have been thoroughly confirmed. There isn't any reason why the p99 numbers should be different when they put it in.

Any melee class can solo except Rogue unless you hate yourself.

Rogue isn't so bad if very twinked TBH. Their -50% attack speed poison can be made solely from vendor ingredients and their breastplate heal at 45 is faster than every other melee class gets.

[Goregasmic]

Well we do, because the exact classic resist values have been thoroughly confirmed. There isn't any reason why the p99 numbers should be different when they put it in.



Rogue isn't so bad if very twinked TBH. Their -50% attack speed poison can be made solely from vendor ingredients and their breastplate heal at 45 is faster than every other melee class gets.

Not a great point because they just made pet tracking unclassic to avoid banning a clear cheater so that's a highly variable guideline.

My bad though, I went back to check the actual dev quotes and I mixed up two of them. They do intend to restore lulls to its classic shitty state. I was telling myself this week I need to go farm shit that needs lulling in case that happens soon so I'll get on that real quick. The day that patch hits a lot of stuff will become a lot more rare.

As for rogues I saw a twink with SS armor and a Horn of hsagra soloing a greening out entrance in KC and it looked painful even with the heal BP. Pretty sure rogues are known to be the worst soloing class overall. If you need mega twink stuff to scrape by, it isn't a good sign.

[Keebz]

they just made pet tracking unclassic

An aside, but still on topic, SKs really caught a stray on this one.

[Snaggles]

An aside, but still on topic, SKs really caught a stray on this one.

At least they have disease cloud.

[Zuranthium]

Not a great point because they just made pet tracking unclassic

Pet tracking is not classic in terms of developer intent and the amount of people who knew about it.

Lull sucking is very classic, and that kind of hard data is something they're always going to adhere to when they have the info.

At least they have disease cloud.

It's supposed to be generating more aggro, lol. They implemented the classic nerf to clicky/proc aggro incorrectly and put an aggro cap on all spells instead.

[Vivitron]

Pet tracking is not classic in terms of developer intent and the amount of people who knew about it.

Lull sucking is very classic, and that kind of hard data is something they're always going to adhere to when they have the info.



It's supposed to be generating more aggro, lol. They implemented the classic nerf to clicky/proc aggro incorrectly and put an aggro cap on all spells instead.

Disease cloud change was from getting rid of good aggro on disease counters. My best reading of the record is that this was probably a change that happened on live after shaman slows were given disease counters, which briefly gave slows double aggro. On live they fixed slow aggro with the disease counter change. Shouldn't be on our timeline; we end before shaman slows get disease counters.

[Goregasmic]

Pet tracking is not classic in terms of developer intent and the amount of people who knew about it.

Lull sucking is very classic, and that kind of hard data is something they're always going to adhere to when they have the info.

That's some good goalpost moving. You can't call for nerfs because stuff isn't classic then call nerfs on classic stuff because you don't like it. You either want classic or you don't, pick one.

Like pet tracking, Verant fixed lulls later so you could easily argue it was broken in the first place. It isn't classic but we already established you're fine with non classic changes.

[Snaggles]

At least they have disease cloud.

It's supposed to be generating more aggro, lol. They implemented the classic nerf to clicky/proc aggro incorrectly and put an aggro cap on all spells instead.

I was joking.

[jolanar]

If you'd have asked me 5 years ago I would have said monk hands down. Which is probably true for the first 50 levels. And also maybe true for quickest to 60. Problem is the first 50 are largely irrelevant and the things monks can solo at 60 are also pretty meaningless. Good at farming fine steel but not a lot else. But now I'd say if you see yourself going the distance and you want to be able to solo a high variety of content I'd say Paladin or Shadowknight are the answer.

[PatChapp]

If you'd have asked me 5 years ago I would have said monk hands down. Which is probably true for the first 50 levels. And also maybe true for quickest to 60. Problem is the first 50 are largely irrelevant and the things monks can solo at 60 are also pretty meaningless. Good at farming fine steel but not a lot else. But now I'd say if you see yourself going the distance and you want to be able to solo a high variety of content I'd say Paladin or Shadowknight are the answer.

What do you think a paladin or sk can solo that a monk can't? I know monks that solo king tranix,nameds in chardok,big rats in DN,emp in seb has been done without worts.

[jolanar]

What do you think a paladin or sk can solo that a monk can't? I know monks that solo king tranix,nameds in chardok,big rats in DN,emp in seb has been done without worts.

Fair enough I guess you need to differentiate between top end raid geared characters and group group characters at 60.

[Goregasmic]

What do you think a paladin or sk can solo that a monk can't? I know monks that solo king tranix,nameds in chardok,big rats in DN,emp in seb has been done without worts.

Also seen some geared ones destroy frenzy in velks and the early wings of HS if they have beads.

[Keebz]

What do you think a paladin or sk can solo that a monk can't? I know monks that solo king tranix,nameds in chardok,big rats in DN,emp in seb has been done without worts.

Geared at 60 Monk is a beast. Best melee in the game by far. However, soloing 50-60 without raid gear is significantly less beastly. Auto-attack warrior mobs, mend, BW repeat. Need to fight a caster mob? Hope your T-Staff procs a lot and make sure you have good resists.

Leveling my SK 50-60 on the other hand was straight forward if boring. I could fear kite casters and higher level mobs (hole elementals and FM giants come to mind), split faster (snare + FD is automatic), get around easier (CoS) and I could pick up some raid gear for dirt cheap. Monk raid gear on the other hand is obnoxiously competitive.

End game Monk is the clear winner, but for derping around solo? That's SK music baby.

[Goregasmic]

Getting both invis and IVU is pretty good QOL if you want to do any dungeoneering.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Geared at 60 Monk is a beast. Best melee in the game by far. However, soloing 50-60 without raid gear is significantly less beastly. Auto-attack warrior mobs, mend, BW repeat. Need to fight a caster mob? Hope your T-Staff procs a lot and make sure you have good resists.

Leveling my SK 50-60 on the other hand was straight forward if boring. I could fear kite casters and higher level mobs (hole elementals and FM giants come to mind), split faster (snare + FD is automatic), get around easier (CoS) and I could pick up some raid gear for dirt cheap. Monk raid gear on the other hand is obnoxiously competitive.

End game Monk is the clear winner, but for derping around solo? That's SK music baby.

Agreed. SK is usually the better option for a more casual character. You don't need as much expensive raid gear on an SK to do a bunch of fun stuff. Monks have a higher ceiling than SK's in BiS gear, but Monk raid gear is generally more expensive than SK raid gear.

[sajbert]

Agreed. SK is usually the better option for a more casual character. You don't need as much expensive raid gear on an SK to do a bunch of fun stuff. Monks have a higher ceiling than SK's in BiS gear, but Monk raid gear is generally more expensive than SK raid gear.

SK twink gear is more expensive than monk though. CoS + Narandi Crown makes SK one of the most expensive twinks even if you don't "need" pegi cloak.

[kjs86z2]

SK twink gear is more expensive than monk though. CoS + Narandi Crown makes SK one of the most expensive twinks even if you don't "need" pegi cloak.

Technically you don't really "need" pre nerf CoS either.

Don't get me wrong, its amazing...but not a hard requirement like Narandi crown.

[Snaggles]

Keebz summed it up well.

Hybrids certainly have a wide window of performance based on gear but pure melees have a proper performance ramp. If your stat table > the mob’s stat table = no problem. If you need to push that envelope often a hybrid can cheat their way to victory. It will just dredge on longer than you might like. They may struggle against targets that are better to kill quicker than slower (mana drain casters that summon).

Outside the upper echelon of gearing and performance, if a monk can kill with less than 70% health with bind and bind wound you can kill much quicker. Higher dps, better mitigation and avoidance, faster recovery.

There is also what you actually want to play. No wrong answers on a time-locked server with free accounts…

[Ripqozko]

The correct answer is rolling a caster then spend 6 months gearing any melee in fuse so that you don't suck on your melee. Doesn't matter what you roll with 5-6k dkp.

[Jimjam]

The correct answer is rolling a caster then spend 6 months gearing any melee in fuse so that you don't suck on your melee. Doesn't matter what you roll with 5-6k dkp.

The context of the thread is literally that op has a caster and wants to start a melee :).

[Zuranthium]

Like pet tracking, Verant fixed lulls later so you could easily argue it was broken in the first place.

Lulls were meant to not be very good. It wasn't some unintended, little-known bug. Enchanters will need to deal with merely being S tier rather than God-like, and people will need to duo/group more.

I feel bad for Paladins, but better to have the game functioning more like it should. Lulls aren't a thing Paladins should be doing anyway if the game was balanced better.

[Ripqozko]

The context of the thread is literally that op has a caster and wants to start a melee :).

And my context is being in top guild to dkp dump on it is more important than the class.

[Goregasmic]

Lulls were meant to not be very good. It wasn't some unintended, little-known bug. Enchanters will need to deal with merely being S tier rather than God-like, and people will need to duo/group more.

Well verant changed the lull resists rate to what we now have on p99 around luclin/pop apparently. Can't say if it was always meant go be terrible but at a point they figured lulls should be better.

For a lot of stuff you can get away with reverse charming anyway as an ench. Some stuff will just be more tricky but still doable. Some items are about to get a lot more rare though. I'm not sure groups will pick up the slack in chardok, even less in SG when most high level zones are already empty.


I feel bad for Paladins, but better to have the game functioning more like it should. Lulls aren't a thing Paladins should be doing anyway if the game was balanced better.

That's a load bearing if.

[sajbert]

Paladins may have a stronger role if there ever were nerfs to channeling, charming and lulls to the extent that chanters and necros couldn't solo creep dungeons like Sebilis and shamans couldn't face tank with torpor. Suddenly people would have to resort to more honest means and group instead. In such a place a Paladin being a tank would be in higher demand. As is a Paladin rarely has the amount of gear or effort behind it to solo Crypt in Sebilis so it'd likely be a win for most Paladins.

However, I fear that a nerf would lull would only remove a fun aspect of the Paladin class whilst enchanters and necros and shamans still got everything on farm.

[Snaggles]

No change to lull will have a lasting effect on this sim. Most raiders are used to stuff that would send shivers up the spine of almost everyone from Live.

If they truly bork Lull crit resists it will make pallies more useful in that they are the most durable class who can cast this spell. They are also less consequential to a bad pull. Let them die…click them back.

I used lull a lot soloing to 60. Almost never now. I banked my CHA kit. Trust me, this is another overplayed fear like the Blue/Green merge. Even if it happens people will adapt. Those who can’t…were never good players to begin with. They should roll a cleric and learn how to count on their fingers.

[Goregasmic]

that chanters and necros couldn't solo creep dungeons like Sebilis and shamans couldn't face tank with torpor. Suddenly people would have to resort to more honest means and group instead.

I was inspired to make a shaman on live because they could torpor facetank cliff golems so I don't think that's going away.

With reverse charming and just parking stuff around with root or mez I think you'll still be able to do most of the current stuff, it will be slower and more annoying though and it will make CRs a lot more difficult in some cases.

If they ever mess with charm stability that could be a big blow.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

SK twink gear is more expensive than monk though. CoS + Narandi Crown makes SK one of the most expensive twinks even if you don't "need" pegi cloak.

You don't need either. They are great items and you should get them, but an SK on a budget can deprioritize those. Blood Ember Clickies are going to save you a lot of mana already if you use them often. A post-nerf circlet of shadows is still fine for most invis scenarios. If you need instant invis after FD just bring a few Ring of Shadows.

[Ripqozko]

It's really not a big deal question. Farm dkp, dump about half a year of it into a lvl 5 melee and anything is easy.

[Naethyn]

paladin with a full suit of ss, yeli neck, and craslith is my pick

[shovelquest]

paladin with a full suit of ss, yeli neck, and craslith is my pick

what is ss, singing steel?

https://i.imgur.com/Glshxbm.png

[Naethyn]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Gladimir

[shovelquest]

Very fancy. Thx!

[Duik]

That character name hurts my immersion.

Gladimir clearly should be a a Sucko Gnight (Shadow Knight).

Thank you for your attention on this matter.

[zelld52]

A lot of people here saying a whole lot but the answer once again is very simple:

Monk. If you want to breeze to 50 you require 3 items. Fungi, haste, 28/30 29/30 or 19/20 2hb.

Much easier to obtain than full skyshrinr armor and all this other no drop nonsense people are talking about

[Jimjam]

A lot of people here saying a whole lot but the answer once again is very simple:

Monk. If you want to breeze to 50 you require 3 items. Fungi, haste, 28/30 29/30 or 19/20 2hb.

Much easier to obtain than full skyshrinr armor and all this other no drop nonsense people are talking about

My monk not only absolutely smashed it to 40 with just some bristle silk armour and a WQS, but they also (on the very rare occasion they died) able to fight their way back to their camp better naked on a CR than my other melees could do while geared.

Monk, especially iksar, is just crazy good in the early levels. She still kicks more ass than most my 52s did, even with basically just a (rediculously easy to acquire) epic and some crystalline silk armour....

[Ripqozko]

A lot of people here saying a whole lot but the answer once again is very simple:

Monk. If you want to breeze to 50 you require 3 items. Fungi, haste, 28/30 29/30 or 19/20 2hb.

Much easier to obtain than full skyshrinr armor and all this other no drop nonsense people are talking about

It's not hard to leech dkp for melee alts as the #15 druid in fuse raids

[Goregasmic]

My monk not only absolutely smashed it to 40 with just some bristle silk armour and a WQS, but they also (on the very rare occasion they died) able to fight their way back to their camp better naked on a CR than my other melees could do while geared.

Monk, especially iksar, is just crazy good in the early levels. She still kicks more ass than most my 52s did, even with basically just a (rediculously easy to acquire) epic and some crystalline silk armour....

Yeah if you're on a budget you can get a 31/37 for 200pp and SCHW for like 800 and just plow right off the gate.

And if you're motivated you can outfit one with decent gear that you'll keep long into 60 for like 15k.

Fuck that 1 year worth of DKP bullshit, aint nobody got time for that.

[Crede]

The answer really depends on gear/experience. I can out level a monk on my SK(epic + fear kiting is like hours of nonstop kills). Before that reaver can keep up with monk dps.

But monks are overall a much stronger class in all aspects of the game. But if your only desire is to build a solo artist that can go pretty much anywhere and travel with ease, then the answer is SK. There is a point somewhere in there though where a pally can kill hard stuff easier than SKs depending on the fight, but eventually with enough gear you'll be more comfy with an SK.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A lot of people here saying a whole lot but the answer once again is very simple:

Monk. If you want to breeze to 50 you require 3 items. Fungi, haste, 28/30 29/30 or 19/20 2hb.


If you can afford it, then I agree. Monks can level really fast when twinked like this.

SK's can be well equipped for a lot less plat, if cost is a factor.

You can get Ceremonial Iksar Chestplate, Embalmers Skinning Knife, Reaver, and SCHW for like 12k total on Blue. If you put 20k total into your SK you can fill all your slots and have haste, regen, a 40/40 weapon, HP/MP gear, etc. Spend 30k instead of 20k and you'll have a seahorse belt instead of SCHW.

Basically for the cost of a Fungi (or 10k less), you can twink an SK well enough to tear through lower level content.

[Ripqozko]

If you can afford it, then I agree. Monks can level really fast when twinked like this.

SK's can be well equipped for a lot less plat, if cost is a factor.

You can get Ceremonial Iksar Chestplate, Embalmers Skinning Knife, Reaver, and SCHW for like 12k total on Blue. If you put 20k total into your SK you can fill all your slots and have haste, regen, a 40/40 weapon, HP/MP gear, etc. Spend 30k instead of 20k and you'll have a seahorse belt instead of SCHW.

Basically for the cost of a Fungi (or 10k less), you can twink an SK well enough to tear through lower level content.

why is cost a factor on 2nd char, fuse will give you gear for doing nothing.

[Duik]

Cost is always a factor. Dropping 15k on any character is beyond many who dont live EQ.

I could live with 2 yaks, FBSS and iksar bp. Dunno how much that is in total but *I'd* feel like a weapon.
Yes, I can laugh at myself.

[Ripqozko]

Cost is always a factor. Dropping 15k on any character is beyond many who dont live EQ.

I could live with 2 yaks, FBSS and iksar bp. Dunno how much that is in total but *I'd* feel like a weapon.
Yes, I can laugh at myself.

warm body in fuse, spend 0 plat. cast potg and regrowth for 6 months and be twinked heavy

[Duik]

Lulz.
Assumes a lvl60 in the first place...

Key to being wealthy.
Step 1. Have money.

[Ripqozko]

Lulz.
Assumes a lvl60 in the first place...

Key to being wealthy.
Step 1. Have money.

yea whole point was they had a caster and wanted to do a melee. surely they can cast a couple spells and warm body in fuse or equivalent.

[Zuranthium]

The thread is "I need a break from my druid and would like a melee character that can solo when I can't find a group"

NOT

"What would be the best melee character for me after 6 months of boring ass raids to get equip"

[zelld52]

Precisely. This isn’t one of us lifers who have multiple 60s and access to DKP bought items.

But every post devolves into “well if you’re on your 9th toon buy a full set of akyshrine, get ring 8, belt of dwarf slaying and you’ll zoom from 5-60 on your paladin.”

Again, the answer is monk. Can level with barely any gear. (Bard is not a melee toon)

[Ripqozko]

Precisely. This isn’t one of us lifers who have multiple 60s and access to DKP bought items.

But every post devolves into “well if you’re on your 9th toon buy a full set of akyshrine, get ring 8, belt of dwarf slaying and you’ll zoom from 5-60 on your paladin.”

Again, the answer is monk. Can level with barely any gear. (Bard is not a melee toon)

If ya ain't got 10 60s in 2025 after 10 years of velious then maybe you should unplug

[Goregasmic]

If ya ain't got 10 60s in 2025 after 10 years of velious then maybe you should unplug

Not everyone has been playing 5 hours a day for 10 years.

[Ripqozko]

Not everyone has been playing 5 hours a day for 10 years.

10 years? thats light weight, this server is 16 years old, its been 10 just in velious.

[zelld52]

If ya ain't got 10 60s in 2025 after 10 years of velious then maybe you should unplug

Yeah because everyone who plays started 10 years ago…

[WarpathEQ]

Precisely. This isn’t one of us lifers who have multiple 60s and access to DKP bought items.

But every post devolves into “well if you’re on your 9th toon buy a full set of akyshrine, get ring 8, belt of dwarf slaying and you’ll zoom from 5-60 on your paladin.”

Again, the answer is monk. Can level with barely any gear. (Bard is not a melee toon)

Quick someone show this man how to battle bard. Bet a bard could melee their way to 60 faster than a monk could untwinked.

[zelld52]

No double attack no thanks

[Naethyn]

There are likely more people here who have access to these items than those who don't so I'm not sure the context is all that far off.

[Ripqozko]

Yeah because everyone who plays started 10 years ago…

I only talk to folks pre 2016, everyone else is ruining the game

[Vexenu]

Quick someone show this man how to battle bard. Bet a bard could melee their way to 60 faster than a monk could untwinked.
True. Bard melee efficiency is very underrated, probably because it's so much faster to swarm kite for XP, and so much more fun/interesting to charm or play group Bard. But Bards really can melee very effectively with the combination of their self-haste, slow, regen, DS and rune spells (and this is not even factoring in the option of fear kiting).

But if you want to go to the trouble of playing a battle Bard, you might as well just duo/trio with a Monk/Rogue, which is a combo that offers some of the best XP in the game.

[Vivitron]

Overall bards are the casterest of the hybrids and probably not what someone asking for a melee alt is looking for. I agree with Vexenu that they melee better than people give them credit for, that their solo melee is overshadowed by pbaoe/charm if you're willing to take advantage those, and that a duo/trio with another twink melee can be surprisingly solid.

I have a 57 bard twink I have been slowly leveling. I haven't tried much toe-to-toe, but I have mixed in some attempts at fear+melee (although I have primarily leveled with charm or pbaoe). l was able to clear bloodgills while they were still blue using just fear+melee. I have drums of the beast and lute of the howler, though. Harder to justify melee without those: lute illusion gives 40% haste without costing a song and prime hand drum lets you drum dot while meleeing, so you snare/fear/3xdrum. A similarly geared monk can clear it too, I've heard.

I still mix in some fear+melee when charming, but bloodgills stuck out as one good camp that I could keep clear with just fear+melee. I have recently been trying sebilis entrance; I seem to clear faster when I use more charm relative to melee+fear. Planning to try melee+fear in skyshrine while still leveling, too.

[kjs86z2]

melee with a bard pre epic is doing it wrong

[WarpathEQ]

melee with a bard pre epic is doing it wrong

Someone hand this man a venomous axe.

[Goregasmic]

Someone hand this man a venomous axe.

The DD is nice but it seems past level 20 or so it will lose its steam. When I see 60s with one I cry inside as something like a jade mace probably has better DPS and bards get access to a 10/18 wristsnapper for like 300pp. 11/24 is not a great weapon by any metric at this point.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

At least for levels 1-45 or so, Bards should do well enough if someone wants to melee. This is assuming you can twink the Bard well. It won't be as good as bard kiting, but some people like to melee. I like melee quite a bit personally.

Using my DPS calculator, let's compare a level 40 Warrior and a level 40 Bard. Both have 150 STR, 34% Worn Haste, Swiftblade of Zek Mainhand, and Blade of Carnage Offhand. They are fighting a level 35 mob.

Without Bard Songs:
1. Warrior - 27 DPS
2. Bard - 18 DPS

This is expected, as Bards do not have Double Attack. At 200 double attack skill the Warrior will be getting about 50% more weapon swings.

Bard using Vilia's Verses of Celerity (20% Haste) + Tuyen's Chant of Flame (21 DoT damage per Tick) + Selo's Consonant Chain (~25% slow):
1. Warrior - 27 DPS
2. Bard - 21 Melee DPS + 3.5 DoT DPS = 24.5 DPS

I'm not an expert bard, so there may be a better combination of songs at that level. You can see that the Bard is now only 2.5 DPS behind the Warrior, while also slowing the mob by 25%. The slow during the fight, combined with HP regen song after the fight, should put the bard at least on par with a Warrior in terms of kills per hour, due to shorter recovery times. Plus bards can pull better than Warriors.

Reaver at level 40 would also be doing around 27 DPS on a Warrior. But obviously SBoZ + BoC is much more expensive.

I also realized Lute of the Howler is clickable at 40, going off of Vivitron's post. At levels 40+ you would certainly be on par with a Warrior if you have a Lute of the Howler, even if the Warrior has eyepatch (20% haste). Saving a song by not casting haste song would allow another song to be played for better survivability or perhaps more damage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I also realized Lute of the Howler is clickable at 40, going off of Vivitron's post. At levels 40+ you would certainly be on par with a Warrior if you have a Lute of the Howler, even if the Warrior has eyepatch (20% haste). Saving a song by not casting haste song would allow another song to be played for better survivability or perhaps more damage.

To clarify, when I said 40+, I was still referring to the level range of 1-45, so levels 40-45 or so. Warriors 51+ will start to pull farther ahead of Bards melee-wise, and they get triple attack at 60. Bards do get better DoTs, but I am not sure if they are enough to bridge the gap. I am not sure how much DPS a level 60 bard can do with DoTs while meleeing.

[Goregasmic]

I mean warrior is known to be the second worst class to level so I'm not sure you'd want to emulate a shitty version of that. It is possible and if someone wants to do that then by all means do so but when you have access to groups/charm/swarming I don't see any reason you'd go that route. The way I see it is like picking a chanter and root rot/nuke your way to 60. You can but why?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I mean warrior is known to be the second worst class to level so I'm not sure you'd want to emulate a shitty version of that. It is possible and if someone wants to do that then by all means do so but when you have access to groups/charm/swarming I don't see any reason you'd go that route. The way I see it is like pcking a chanter and root rot/nuke your way to 60. You can but why?

The utility of a Bard would make the leveling experience nicer than a Warrior. Bard DPS isn't as bad as you would think from at least levels 1-45 or so, and Bards have the edge when it comes to pulling and recovery times.

Some people prefer to level in a way that's fun for them, rather than the optimal way. A Bard with a Fungi + Seahorse Belt + SBoZ + BoC should level pretty quickly in the lower levels based on my understanding if they wanted to melee. It wouldn't be like leveling a Rogue/Warrior. It would probably be closer to leveling a Paladin/Shadowknight/Ranger.

[Goregasmic]

I appreciate demonstrating the fact that it is kind of viable but you're still spending like 150k to turn a class into something it is not really when you could spend a fraction of that and level 10x faster. Or put that money on a class that does the same thing but better.

[kjs86z2]

At least for levels 1-45 or so, Bards should do well enough if someone wants to melee. This is assuming you can twink the Bard well. It won't be as good as bard kiting, but some people like to melee. I like melee quite a bit personally.

Using my DPS calculator, let's compare a level 40 Warrior and a level 40 Bard. Both have 150 STR, 34% Worn Haste, Swiftblade of Zek Mainhand, and Blade of Carnage Offhand. They are fighting a level 35 mob.

Without Bard Songs:
1. Warrior - 27 DPS
2. Bard - 18 DPS

This is expected, as Bards do not have Double Attack. At 200 double attack skill the Warrior will be getting about 50% more weapon swings.

Bard using Vilia's Verses of Celerity (20% Haste) + Tuyen's Chant of Flame (21 DoT damage per Tick) + Selo's Consonant Chain (~25% slow):
1. Warrior - 27 DPS
2. Bard - 21 Melee DPS + 3.5 DoT DPS = 24.5 DPS

I'm not an expert bard, so there may be a better combination of songs at that level. You can see that the Bard is now only 2.5 DPS behind the Warrior, while also slowing the mob by 25%. The slow during the fight, combined with HP regen song after the fight, should put the bard at least on par with a Warrior in terms of kills per hour, due to shorter recovery times. Plus bards can pull better than Warriors.

Reaver at level 40 would also be doing around 27 DPS on a Warrior. But obviously SBoZ + BoC is much more expensive.

I also realized Lute of the Howler is clickable at 40, going off of Vivitron's post. At levels 40+ you would certainly be on par with a Warrior if you have a Lute of the Howler, even if the Warrior has eyepatch (20% haste). Saving a song by not casting haste song would allow another song to be played for better survivability or perhaps more damage.


now do it for charm killing

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I appreciate demonstrating the fact that it is kind of viable but you're still spending like 150k to turn a class into something it is not really when you could spend a fraction of that and level 10x faster. Or put that money on a class that does the same thing but better.

Even untwinked I think a melee Bard would do suprisingly well compared to an untwinked Monk levels 1-45. I'll probably do a writeup in the evening.

now do it for charm killing

I don't think anybody was suggesting Bard melee is more efficient than the other options Bards have. Bard melee simply isn't as bad as people think when comparing to other melee classes who don't have charming/swarm kiting as options.

[Crede]

Even untwinked I think a melee Bard would do suprisingly well compared to an untwinked Monk levels 1-45. I'll probably do a writeup in the evening

Yea bards are probably the best dungeon crawlers until 51. With moderate twinkage I was doing stuff and killing at a rate that even an enc couldn’t keep up with. This did involve mixing in charm but still crazy good. Even though their aoe mez is one tick it’s really effective still into the mid 40s. Fantastic class that unfortunately ends up swarming as their stuff just doesn’t scale as well 51+. I will say though if I had epic at 46 I would have liked to try more things as melee + chant dots is a ton of dps.

[bcbrown]

Overall bards are the casterest of the hybrids and probably not what someone asking for a melee alt is looking for. I agree with Vexenu that they melee better than people give them credit for, that their solo melee is overshadowed by pbaoe/charm if you're willing to take advantage those, and that a duo/trio with another twink melee can be surprisingly solid.

I have a 57 bard twink I have been slowly leveling. I haven't tried much toe-to-toe, but I have mixed in some attempts at fear+melee (although I have primarily leveled with charm or pbaoe). l was able to clear bloodgills while they were still blue using just fear+melee. I have drums of the beast and lute of the howler, though. Harder to justify melee without those: lute illusion gives 40% haste without costing a song and prime hand drum lets you drum dot while meleeing, so you snare/fear/3xdrum. A similarly geared monk can clear it too, I've heard.

Agree with this and what the other bards are saying. A venomous axe lets you rip through the teens and 20s, especially since bards tend to have good dex. At higher levels melee is still possible, especially since you can always mez and regen halfway through a fight, but it really did fall off hard as a viable playstyle in the 30s and 40s as charm comes online and mobs get tougher. I would mildly disagree at calling drum-dotting with Drums of the Beast with an offhand weapon "meleeing" though. That's just adding a little dps to the drum-dots.

In the context of OP's question, in addition to being the "casterest of the hybrids", the other thing about bards I'd note is that they thrive in random ad-hoc duos and trios. So if you're intent on only soloing you'll skip one of the most fun aspects of playing a bard, but on the other hand if you're up for grabbing a random duo with whomever else is soloing nearby, it might be a factor in favor of choosing a bard. But if you're looking for pure hack-and-slash all the way to 60, probably not the best option.

Yea bards are probably the best dungeon crawlers until 51. With moderate twinkage I was doing stuff and killing at a rate that even an enc couldn’t keep up with. This did involve mixing in charm but still crazy good. Even though their aoe mez is one tick it’s really effective still into the mid 40s. Fantastic class that unfortunately ends up swarming as their stuff just doesn’t scale as well 51+. I will say though if I had epic at 46 I would have liked to try more things as melee + chant dots is a ton of dps.

Yeah one thing bard is great at is zero-downtime fighting, especially with charming or a duo. But the aoe mez has been nerfed to not land on anything above level 25.

[Vivitron]

I would mildly disagree at calling drum-dotting with Drums of the Beast with an offhand weapon "meleeing" though. That's just adding a little dps to the drum-dots.

You melee prime hand too, just pop the drum in as the dot lands. Probably a bit under half the dps comes from melee.

[bcbrown]

You melee prime hand too, just pop the drum in as the dot lands. Probably a bit under half the dps comes from melee.

Oh yeah that makes sense. I'm jealous of your instruments, still a ways away from getting them.

[Duik]

Now i see why bard epic is useful as a melee bard. Not so much for the ratio and the white damage but the instrument mod.
What a newb i am.

[Snaggles]

melee with a bard pre epic is doing it wrong

Soloing? Yea probably.

In a group? Most your normal spells aren’t even modded. Slow has the same effect, mana too, snare hardly affected, dots don’t matter, charm and mez nobody is cycling in a flute. The ones that matter like regen and McVaxious there are better primary instruments to cycle.

The real question is can the bard melee and actually play songs efficiently. Most can. With a lot of CC needed most likely can’t and should step back and tab-target instead of swinging steel.

It’s like most classes, if they are meeting the Bell Curve let them do their thing. If the pre-epic bard isn’t twisting songs to do SK pet dps…ugh.

[kjs86z2]

Soloing? Yea probably.

In a group? Most your normal spells aren’t even modded. Slow has the same effect, mana too, snare hardly affected, dots don’t matter, charm and mez nobody is cycling in a flute. The ones that matter like regen and McVaxious there are better primary instruments to cycle.

The real question is can the bard melee and actually play songs efficiently. Most can. With a lot of CC needed most likely can’t and should step back and tab-target instead of swinging steel.

It’s like most classes, if they are meeting the Bell Curve let them do their thing. If the pre-epic bard isn’t twisting songs to do SK pet dps…ugh.

eh was more thinking you should be pulling (either with eye helm or getting your ass out there)

if you're letting any other class pull you're bad - the monk is doing way more damage and no other class can cast and move at the same time...oh and eye helm too is pure amazeballs for keeping your twist going in camp

there should always be a steady stream of mobs coming into camp, throttled by group dps / capability

obvious caveat being you're breaking some super dangerous spot where you need FD...but for standard leveling groups this doesnt apply ever...especially once you get aoe snare

if you happen to be the virtuoso sperg that can do it all perfectly and melee - bravo...the mage sitting there sending his pet in while watching netflix thanks you for all that extra work

[zelld52]

Even untwinked I think a melee Bard would do suprisingly well compared to an untwinked Monk levels 1-45. I'll probably do a writeup in the evening.



I don't think anybody was suggesting Bard melee is more efficient than the other options Bards have. Bard melee simply isn't as bad as people think when comparing to other melee classes who don't have charming/swarm kiting as options.

bard doesnt get double attack, dont get any special attacks, and cant use any 2h weapons. they simply, mathematically, cannot be on par with the other melee classes.

[zelld52]

Yea bards are probably the best dungeon crawlers until 51. With moderate twinkage I was doing stuff and killing at a rate that even an enc couldn’t keep up with. This did involve mixing in charm but still crazy good. Even though their aoe mez is one tick it’s really effective still into the mid 40s. Fantastic class that unfortunately ends up swarming as their stuff just doesn’t scale as well 51+. I will say though if I had epic at 46 I would have liked to try more things as melee + chant dots is a ton of dps.

if you were doing better than an enchanter at level 51, it was a really bad enchanter.

[Crede]

if you were doing better than an enchanter at level 51, it was a really bad enchanter.

I clearly said "until level 51" in the post you quoted. Yes eventually an enchanter can out level them as they scale much better 51+. But until that point bard is basically nonstop killing if you know what you're doing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

they [bard] simply, mathematically, cannot be on par with the other melee classes.

This is not always correct, and I was talking about levels 1-45 or so. The metric for XPing is kills per hour. This is a combination of variables including DPS, Recovery Time, and Pull time. Let me give a simple example:

Level 40 Human Bard (1/12 HP Regen Standing/Sitting with using hymn of Restoration while sitting)

Level 40 Human Monk (6/8 HP Regen Standing/Sitting with using Mend on cooldown)

Both characters have the same stats:
100 STR
100 DEX
1200 HP

Bard is using Vilia's Verses of Celerity (20% Haste) + Tuyen's Chant of Flame (21 DoT damage per Tick) + Selo's Consonant Chain (~25% slow).

Monk is using Mend on cooldown. 1200 x 0.25 = 300 / 360 = 0.833 × 6 seconds = 5 HP per tick.

Hymn of Resoration gives you between 2 and 13 HP per tick, depending on level. At 40 it should give you 9 HP per tick.

Mob is level 35 with 1000 HP and does 8 DPS.

This example is Classic EQ (No Expansions) Solo Self Found:

1. Human Bard Dual Wielding Dragoon Dirk (0.26 ratio) + Obsidian Scimitar (0.26 ratio) using my DPS Calculator:

7 Melee DPS + 3.5 DoT DPS = 10.5 DPS.
95 Seconds Kill.
760 Damage Taken × 0.75 via Slow = 570 - 16 HP from Regen = 554 Damage Taken.
12 HP Regen including Hymn Sitting = 277 second recovery.
372 seconds total per kill.


2. Human Monk Dual Wielding Bare Fists (0.375 ratio) using my DPS calculator:

11.25 Melee DPS + 5 DPS Flying Kick (guesstimate) = 16.25 DPS
61 second kill.
488 Damage Taken - 60 HP from Mend + Regen = 428 Damage Taken.
8 HP Regen including Mend Sitting = 321 Seconds.
382 seconds total.


The bard in this scenario is melee killing and recovering at the same rate as the monk with worse ratio weapons.

[Jimjam]

eh was more thinking you should be pulling (either with eye helm or getting your ass out there)

if you're letting any other class pull you're bad - the monk is doing way more damage and no other class can cast and move at the same time...oh and eye helm too is pure amazeballs for keeping your twist going in camp

there should always be a steady stream of mobs coming into camp, throttled by group dps / capability

obvious caveat being you're breaking some super dangerous spot where you need FD...but for standard leveling groups this doesnt apply ever...especially once you get aoe snare

if you happen to be the virtuoso sperg that can do it all perfectly and melee - bravo...the mage sitting there sending his pet in while watching netflix thanks you for all that extra work

Tangential but I like it when wizards pull with eye while medding and cc the incoming train with aoe snares, roots, etc.

[Crede]

This is not always correct, and I was talking about levels 1-45 or so. The metric for XPing is kills per hour. This is a combination of variables including DPS, Recovery Time, and Pull time. Let me give a simple example:

Level 40 Human Bard (1/12 HP Regen Standing/Sitting with using hymn of Restoration while sitting)

Level 40 Human Monk (6/8 HP Regen Standing/Sitting with using Mend on cooldown)

Both characters have the same stats:
100 STR
100 DEX
1200 HP

Bard is using Vilia's Verses of Celerity (20% Haste) + Tuyen's Chant of Flame (21 DoT damage per Tick) + Selo's Consonant Chain (~25% slow).


To help your comparison a bit, you should be getting 25% from the low level self haste Jonthan's Whistling Warsong still at 40. And then an even better self haste at 46. And maybe even your lvl 30 chant too if you can get 4 songs off.

I'd imagine with 2/3 chants + haste with epic bards are putting out some pretty nice dps at 46 if you're lucky enough to get it that early.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To help your comparison a bit, you should be getting 25% from the low level self haste Jonthan's Whistling Warsong still at 40. And then an even better self haste at 46. And maybe even your lvl 30 chant too if you can get 4 songs off.

Thanks for the suggestions! Let me know if you think of anything else. I'm not an expert bard, so not 100% sure what the best songs to use are at 40 for a melee bard.

[Crede]

Thanks for the suggestions! Let me know if you think of anything else. I'm not an expert bard, so not 100% sure what the best songs to use are at 40 for a melee bard.

Well depends on gear hehe. If you're meleeing at 40 and can afford Lute of the Howler, you don't need to play the haste song anymore to free up other songs :)

[Snaggles]

It’s easy to lose track of the original post/topic. I’m guilty as well.

I’d go ranger or bard. Bard is the least gear dependant melee by a mile. Even charm kiting 1v1 mobs is much faster. Rangers are a blast…then painful from like 51-59…then amazing to have at 60.

If you want a shiny armor toon that’s easy to level, nothing beats a bard.

[Zuranthium]

Spamming Bard songs is not MELEE. It's like calling a Cleric spamming undead nukes a melee class just because they can stand in melee while they do it. Or a Necro with lifetap spam.

Hymn of Resoration gives you between 2 and 13 HP per tick, depending on level.

Way more than that with an instrument (which ofc should be used during downtime).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Spamming Bard songs is not MELEE. It's like calling a Cleric spamming undead nukes a melee class just because they can stand in melee while they do it. Or a Necro with lifetap spam.


Bards can swing their melee weapons while casting songs. It's different from a Cleric casting spells in melee, as the Cleric cannot swing their melee weapon until the spell finishes.


Way more than that with an instrument (which ofc should be used during downtime).

Indeed, instruments will help. I am just not familiar with how the instrument modifiers work, so I didn't include them.

[bcbrown]

Spamming Bard songs is not MELEE. It's like calling a Cleric spamming undead nukes a melee class just because they can stand in melee while they do it. Or a Necro with lifetap spam.

What, is your definition of bard melee just autoattacking without playing songs? That's dumb as hell. Bard melee is when you have weapons equipped and attacking. You would still be twisting songs, you just don't (exclusively) have an instrument wielded for the modifier. The alternative would be snare-kiting or fear-kiting with drum dots, or charm killing, or swarming.

This is not to say that that scenario is realistic or illustrative, though. The Monk would be using bind wound and the bard would be using a lute while recovering, for one thing. What that napkin math really demonstrates is how powerful bard recovery is. Bard melee sucks shit relatively speaking, but the recovery benefits outweigh that deficit. Plus the ability to split with lull, cc with mez/charm, and snare runners means you have huge QoL benefits. Bard melee is fine, it's just relatively overlooked due to how powerful and efficient it is to swarm, fear kite, snare kite, or charm. That melee scenario has over four minutes of recovery, but with any of these other tactics it will be close to zero downtime.

Indeed, instruments will help. I am just not familiar with how the instrument modifiers work, so I didn't include them.

It's pretty simple. Instrument modifiers multiply the effects by the modifier, so an 18 drum results in dots/selos 1.8x as strong, and a 21 lute means your hymn is 2.1x as powerful. But it doesn't apply to every effect, so things like haste, charm, lull, mana regen, maybe snare/slow aren't affected by modifiers.

[Crede]

Bards can swing their melee weapons while casting songs. It's different from a Cleric casting spells in melee, as the Cleric cannot swing their melee weapon until the spell finishes.



Indeed, instruments will help. I am just not familiar with how the instrument modifiers work, so I didn't include them.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50223

Check out the spreadsheet in this post. You plug in your level and instrument mods and you can get an idea. Shows how much more dot damage you get with instruments for example.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50223

Check out the spreadsheet in this post. You plug in your level and instrument mods and you can get an idea. Shows how much more dot damage you get with instruments for example.

Thanks! That is really handy.

The Monk would be using bind wound.

Bind wound wasn't included in my example because the Monk would be above 50% HP after the fight.

I'd be curious to know if bards can bind wound while singing Hymn. If so then both can bind wound below 50%, so it would even out anyway.

[bcbrown]

I'd he curious to know if bards can bind wound while singing hymn. If so then both can bind wound below 50%, so it would even out anyway.

Yes they can. You should try playing a bard, they're really fairly unique in terms of game mechanics, and a lot of fun to level.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes they can. You should try playing a bard, they're really fairly unique in terms of game mechanics, and a lot of fun to level.

Good to know!

Bard is a class I would love to level up. It will be fun to learn their unique mechanics. I just don't have the time to level a brand new character these days.

[zelld52]

people talk about charming at higher levels, that is no longer melee. bard melee capability drops off severely the same level as all other melee classes - with the exception of fear kiting.

in this regard, bard is the better choice over SK because they dont need to meditate to cast snare / fear.

when it comes to pure melee though, standing toe to toe - a bard twisting all their powerful songs at level 40 could not do the same type of damage that a warrior or monk could do, because they lack double attack. they also lack the defensive skills that monk and warrior have, so would take more damage. they could recover alot easier and quicker with healing songs, but the fights will go faster if youre meleeing with a "fighter" class like rogue, warrior, monk or even ranger - these classes all get double attack, and get WAYYYY higher defensive skills than bard (whos riposte caps at 75, dodge caps at 155, parry caps at 185 - compared to ranger, the worst defensive abilities of all melee with 185 cap riposte, 170 cap dodge, and 220 cap on parry)

bard has better ways of controlling adds, slowing, snaring, fearing, etc. but they are most certainly not a "fighter" class.

soloability, bard has it way better than all the other melee - but again - bard is not a "true" melee character. gonna beat the dead horse here and say that double attack and parry/block, dodge and riposte is what separates melee from the rest. WAR MNK ROG SHD PAL RNG <--- "True" melees with double attack and higher defensive capabilities

Bard arent typically considered a fighter or melee in something like DnD, they arent in many other games that have them as playable characters. parse a raid log, and have the bards doing melee attacks. i bet theyre <50% damage of the worst rogue on the raid.

you CAN melee on a bard, and thats why EQ is great. you can also melee on a shaman - shit i levelled 3 shaman and slow tanked while meleeing until level 46-49 on all 3. but i wouldnt say shaman is the best solo melee class.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

in this regard, bard is the better choice over SK because they dont need to meditate to cast snare / fear.


Once SK's get to level 45 they don't need to use mana on snare / fear unless they are an Iksar. I use Blood Ember Gloves and Boots a lot to save on mana, even at level 60. I rarely use my higher duration fear spells, as they aren't good for fearing in tight spaces like dungeons.


you CAN melee on a bard, and thats why EQ is great. you can also melee on a shaman - shit i levelled 3 shaman and slow tanked while meleeing until level 46-49 on all 3. but i wouldnt say shaman is the best solo melee class.

I don't think anyone was saying Bard (or Shaman) were the best melee class. I was just showing that Bard is better at melee than one might assume when it comes to kills per hour from levels 1-45 or so.

In the lower levels spell haste helps to make up for lack of double attack (same with a Shaman), especially before double attack is skill capped. Bard's ability to slow and regenerate HP allows them to recover quickly, which helps make up for the lower DPS as well. Plus DoTs can add a bit of missing DPS. They are indeed similar to Shamans in this regard now that you mention it.

[Snaggles]

Almost everything in EQ needs three disclaimers next to it.

A bard can do damage with spells (if they land) or melee (on anything). It’s not high-level of DPS but technically they can. They can also sustain this almost forever. Even burning mana on charming you have far more than 1hr of constant charms (on the higher ranked one) before you will go OOM.

They are a flexible support class. However, for solo work between all the tricks they are by far the most capable “hybrid melee” archetype unless you can’t snare, slow, or fear and the mob summons. If that’s the case, it becomes a dangerous game of charm and regen/click’quest.

If you do the math on a toe-to-toe fight, a melee bard is not matching a monk, warrior, or even a normal hybrid. Considering they can self-haste for a duration with a Howler Lute click, sing a 1min duration slow, and then weave other spells like regen, dots, or damage shields the overall package works pretty well for taking damage and dishing it out.

The main opponent of this approach is the fact that same bard could just swarm or charm kill at multiple times the speed. Or pick up a melee and reverse kite stuff with less drama and while keeping its drum equipped for better dots and run speed.

I have a poorly geared who is frequently use for tasks my other classes can’t do. An enchanter is more powerful in almost every way. In most situations a necro is as well. A geared and well played bard especially outdoors likely will rival both in most situations. Any class that can pick up a bronze medal among those fellow competitors is worth trying out. Especially if the cost of entry is some bronze armor and a Mistmoore drum…

[Ennewi]

soloability, bard has it way better than all the other melee - but again - bard is not a "true" melee character. gonna beat the dead horse here and say that double attack and parry/block, dodge and riposte is what separates melee from the rest. WAR MNK ROG SHD PAL RNG <--- "True" melees with double attack and higher defensive capabilities

Bard arent typically considered a fighter or melee in something like DnD, they arent in many other games that have them as playable characters. parse a raid log, and have the bards doing melee attacks. i bet theyre <50% damage of the worst rogue on the raid.

you CAN melee on a bard, and thats why EQ is great. you can also melee on a shaman - shit i levelled 3 shaman and slow tanked while meleeing until level 46-49 on all 3. but i wouldnt say shaman is the best solo melee class.

This is what I prefer about DAoC, specifically for this class. Three options are provided—skald, bard, and minstrel. The skald is more physical/melee, the bard is more cerebral/caster, and the minstrel is neither one nor the other but a little of both, more of a jack of all trades. So that ability to choose your own adventurer is more akin to DnD with bard colleges that differentiate one playstyle from another.

Even so, upgrades in EQ present options in how one can choose to play their class. Without the epic or Velious piercers, bards can still benefit from wielding certain melee weapons, from Melodious Truncheon to Guardians Mace. Situational, but still relevant. If their aggro was corrected/reverted, weapons would see more regular use given that bards would be able to tank, holding aggro and compensating for low defenses and nonexistent defensive skills by applying slow songs. That plus the ability to layer on plate AC and a shield...

As you said, similar to shaman in that way, thanks to being able to slow on demand.

[Zuranthium]

What, is your definition of bard melee just autoattacking without playing songs?

I just think it's wrong to classify Bard as a melee class. That term should be reserved for classes who gain the majority of their worth by attacking in combat. Bard's power is tied to their songs, with their melee attacks just being a bonus sometimes.

Especially if you don't have an epic. You will do more DPS by instrument swapping between DoT's than you will by keeping weapons equipped.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I just think it's wrong to classify Bard as a melee class. That term should be reserved for classes who gain the majority of their worth by attacking in combat. Bard's power is tied to their songs, with their melee attacks just being a bonus sometimes.

Especially if you don't have an epic. You will do more DPS by instrument swapping between DoT's than you will by keeping weapons equipped.

Bards are hybrids, which is why their classification is in a grey area. They are have more melee skills than any traditional caster. This includes Shamans, who are the most melee oriented of all the traditional caster classes.

Remember that Bards get Dual Wield, Parry, Riposte, Weapon Skills that exceed 200 past level 50, Offense skill that exceeds 200 past level 50, and Defense Skill that exceeds 200 past level 50. That is quite a bit more melee prowess than a Shaman, who caps at 200 Weapon skill/Offense Skill/Defense Skill, cannot dual wield, cannot double attack, cannot Parry, cannot Riposte, and only has 75 Dodge Skill. Shamans don't get the main hand damage bonus either.

Bards do get the main hand damage bonus, while casters do not. This is probably the clearest indicator that Bards are melee oriented.

[Sizar]

I moderately twinked out a bard years ago to solo melee. Had full singing steel, 34% haste belt, breath of harmony and some other weapon i forget which. HP rings and earrings. Pretty basic stuff. It is very fun and easy to about level 45, ZERO downtime which i cannot even say for a monk. Kills are obviously slower than other melee but the zero downtime will make up for it somewhat.

After 45 it was a bit tougher. There was a bit of downtime but not a whole lot. At 51 it just became not worth it to only melee mobs down for xp. That is when i swapped to charming. (this was my 3rd bard, other 2 i leveled the more traditional charming way, this one I didnt charm even once)

The trick is to make sure you have the correct songs loaded. Like using a damage shield song did very little if I was also slow/snaring the mob, which I always was.

Oh also, this was all done without fear kiting either, all just 100% melee it down face to face

With an Uber twinked bard it would be ridiculous what you can do. I would imagine you can level at the pace of an uber twinked monk even

[Solist]

I moderately twinked out a bard years ago to solo melee. Had full singing steel, 34% haste belt, breath of harmony and some other weapon i forget which. HP rings and earrings. Pretty basic stuff. It is very fun and easy to about level 45, ZERO downtime which i cannot even say for a monk. Kills are obviously slower than other melee but the zero downtime will make up for it somewhat.

After 45 it was a bit tougher. There was a bit of downtime but not a whole lot. At 51 it just became not worth it to only melee mobs down for xp. That is when i swapped to charming. (this was my 3rd bard, other 2 i leveled the more traditional charming way, this one I didnt charm even once)

The trick is to make sure you have the correct songs loaded. Like using a damage shield song did very little if I was also slow/snaring the mob, which I always was.

Oh also, this was all done without fear kiting either, all just 100% melee it down face to face

With an Uber twinked bard it would be ridiculous what you can do. I would imagine you can level at the pace of an uber twinked monk even

What you're saying is you levelled a bard the slowest possible way to level a bard solo. And all the while did so while spending more on gear :confused:

Vendor horn, vendor drum, vendor lute. Off ya trot to 60 turning left like Dale Earnhardt.

[Snaggles]

I just think it's wrong to classify Bard as a melee class. That term should be reserved for classes who gain the majority of their worth by attacking in combat. Bard's power is tied to their songs, with their melee attacks just being a bonus sometimes.

Especially if you don't have an epic. You will do more DPS by instrument swapping between DoT's than you will by keeping weapons equipped.

Bards gain the majority of their worth by what is equipped in their primary and secondary melee slot. Their spell caps are obviously melee based and they have 1 skill in Meditate.

They do pretty bad melee dps but have you ever parsed a priest or caster swinging a staff?

[Duik]

What you're saying is you levelled a bard the slowest possible way to level a bard solo. And all the while did so while spending more on gear :confused:

Vendor horn, vendor drum, vendor lute. Off ya trot to 60 turning left like Dale Earnhardt.

Plat means nothing. To some.
Fun and/or fashionquest mean everything. To some.

Hearing all this I'd likely do a bit of everything anyways. Spit a 2 spawn initially with charm. Once split you have choices. It's not as if there is a time limit to level up.

[Sizar]

What you're saying is you levelled a bard the slowest possible way to level a bard solo. And all the while did so while spending more on gear :confused:

Vendor horn, vendor drum, vendor lute. Off ya trot to 60 turning left like Dale Earnhardt.

I play the game to have fun, I'm sure most of us do. Guess what, I have never heard anyone saying swarming is fun. If you have then they are full of Sh*t

[Ripqozko]

I play the game to have fun, I'm sure most of us do. Guess what, I have never heard anyone saying swarming is fun. If you have then they are full of Sh*t

i had fun swarming, after about 2mil in kunark it did get boring but i wouldnt say swarming itself is boring. numbers go brrrrrr.

[kjs86z2]

the most fun i had playing bard was being the most badass puller PUGroups had ever seen

[Snaggles]

Charming in outdoor zones is very fun and it’s a skill worth practicing. It’s not swarm speed but is quicker than melee-style as you are putting down two npc’s at the same time. It’s also a bit more flexible where you can hunt.

Being able to run fast is part of the joy of soloing a bard. Personally, my nerves could never handle swarming (fatigue more than the stress).

[Pint]

Monk is the most fun solo melee by a huge margin. It's easy and effective. Every other class will have downsides unless XYZ which usually includes more time then it's worth unless you're a degenerate like the rest of us.

[Crede]

Charming in outdoor zones is very fun and it’s a skill worth practicing. It’s not swarm speed but is quicker than melee-style as you are putting down two npc’s at the same time. It’s also a bit more flexible where you can hunt.

Being able to run fast is part of the joy of soloing a bard. Personally, my nerves could never handle swarming (fatigue more than the stress).

I dunno with the 25 mob limit I feel like a charming bard could out level swarming at least until 51 when charm starts using mana.

[Crede]

Monk is the most fun solo melee by a huge margin. It's easy and effective. Every other class will have downsides unless XYZ which usually includes more time then it's worth unless you're a degenerate like the rest of us.

I think from a pure solo perspective sks are more superior without factoring in endless consumables. Better at splitting, getting around, and interrupting spells. I think monks sweet spot is duo/trio.

[Snaggles]

I dunno with the 25 mob limit I feel like a charming bard could out level swarming at least until 51 when charm starts using mana.

You definitely have more grind spots available with less setup time. Far less deaths.
It’s the “slow but steady” approach which is more my angle.

[Elizondo]

Not Rogue

[jonnyquest]

Go Rogue

[zelld52]

Everyone saying "swarm a bard / charm using a bard" --- those are NOT melee options.

When I think melee characters, I think a character that is going to stand toe-to-toe and melee down a mob to kill it. Using spells / songs as supplement to melee damage.

[Cecily]

It's literally a melee class. Please refrain from giving advice unless you have experience playing the game.

[jolanar]

It's literally a melee class. Please refrain from giving advice unless you have experience playing the game.

Bone knight thread is that way ----->

[Cecily]

I did that on my SK. Dark elf with Yeli sword was fun.

[zelld52]

It's literally a melee class. Please refrain from giving advice unless you have experience playing the game.

You are such a sad, sad person.

[busted]

Bard is OP. Never sleep on the battle bard setup

[Snaggles]

You are such a sad, sad person.

By your arbitrary “toe to toe” definition most rangers won’t qualify exping in this way either. Rogues either.

[zelld52]

By your arbitrary “toe to toe” definition most rangers won’t qualify exping in this way either. Rogues either.

I'm genuinely curious whether you just didn't read my post, or are too dense to understand what I mean.

People are mentioning swarming and charming. THESE ARE NOT MELEE COMBAT.

[Snaggles]

I'm genuinely curious whether you just didn't read my post, or are too dense to understand what I mean.

People are mentioning swarming and charming. THESE ARE NOT MELEE COMBAT.

I’m not the one redefining bards as “not a melee class” when people use them to swarm and charm stuff. Use does not redefine role…you can break up a bag of ice with a screwdriver but that doesn’t make the screwdriver an ice mallet.

Melee is one of the ways they can kill things. A Druid with a primal and shovel of the harvest does around 7-10dps on a raid mob, bards often do 25dps on AoW. Which do you feel is more of a melee archetype? Also, a bard meleeing like this to 60 (ie the least efficient way) is still on par or faster than normal melees outside maybe a monk.

If you are trying to shift the status quo of the game understanding, try being objective and less emotional. The bulk of the players don’t agree with you so try a bit harder to convince them or realize your logic is flawed and stop pouting.

[Zuranthium]

A Druid with a primal and shovel of the harvest does around 7-10dps on a raid mob, bards often do 25dps on AoW. Which do you feel is more of a melee archetype?

Neither of those numbers feel like a melee archetype. Bard is obviously "more melee" than a caster but nobody plays them because of their pure melee capability, and it would be misleading when a new player asks "I want to play a melee character, which one would I like most" to ever tell them to play a Bard. People play melee either because they want to be a tank or because they want to see big damage happening when they swing their weapons. Those are not things Bards excel at. You need to twist songs every 3 seconds to excel as a Bard, which are things that can be interrupted when getting hit, the same as spells. Bards are more caster than they are melee.

[zelld52]

Neither of those numbers feel like a melee archetype. Bard is obviously "more melee" than a caster but nobody plays them because of their pure melee capability, and it would be misleading when a new player asks "I want to play a melee character, which one would I like most" to ever tell them to play a Bard. People play melee either because they want to be a tank or because they want to see big damage happening when they swing their weapons. Those are not things Bards excel at. You need to twist songs every 3 seconds to excel as a Bard, which are things that can be interrupted when getting hit, the same as spells. Bards are more caster than they are melee.

i dont understand why others keep choosing a semantical argument about a rock solid fact like this.

Melee characters are characters that rely primarily on their auto attack to be effective in combat.

Bards clearly were not designed to, as evidenced by lack of the most crucial melee skill: Double Attack

There are no "official" class categories in Everquest. *MOST* gear is more typically split into type (Plate, Leather, Chain, Cloth)

And everyone in this thread suggesting to someone (OP) who stated they want a break from their druid to play a melee , and then suggesting charming or swarming on a bard is missing the mark by a mile.

What most people want to play when they express such feeelings is to play something uber simple like a monk, warrior or rogue - that dont require buying spells / songs, dont require any casting in combat - and rely more simply on auto attack and not much else.

Ranger, Paladin, Shadowknight could be classified as melee (even though they are colloquially known as "Hybrid") because they generate most of their offensive output through MELEE COMBAT.

A SWARMING OR CHARMING BARD IS NOT USING MELEE COMBAT

[Ennewi]

Are monks, rogues, and warriors melee classes? Yes.
Are rangers, shadow knights, and paladins melee classes? Yes and...
Are bards melee characters? Yes but...
Are the other classes melee characters? No but...

[Cecily]

I'm genuinely curious whether you just didn't read my post, or are too dense to understand what I mean.

People are mentioning swarming and charming. THESE ARE NOT MELEE COMBAT.
Can you please keep your insults to the Rants and Flame section of forums? Thank you. This is your last warning.

[Zuranthium]

Are bards melee characters? Yes but...
Are the other classes melee characters? No but...

Bards should be in the "No but..." category, really. If you just stand around auto attacking as a Bard, you're not contributing much. Any actual melee class, they can do that can contribute a significant amount. Just make sure people understand root proximity aggro and that's all there is to it, to reach a workable level of effectiveness as a melee for a casual group.

Bards can solo while fighting in melee the whole time if they want, but it's only effective because of their magic (songs), not because of their melee capability. Similar to Shaman fighting in melee all the time when slow tanking. Like yeah you're in melee, but it's mainly to exploit the non-melee abilities you have.

[Ennewi]

Bards should be in the "No but..." category, really. If you just stand around auto attacking as a Bard, you're not contributing much.

Bards can solo while fighting in melee the whole time if they want, but it's only effective because of their magic (songs), not because of their melee capability. Similar to Shaman fighting in melee all the time when slow tanking. Like yeah you're in melee, but it's mainly to exploit the non-melee abilities you have.

I went with "yes but..." mainly because their groupwide weapon procs are unique to the class and require that they engage in melee, consistently, due to the short duration of those procs. Along with the benefits gained from those procs (atk, str, haste), this indicates that the developers wanted them to be in the fray auto-attacking with other melee classes so the effect(s) would land. Even ignoring the better/bis weapons though, the devs still provided them with Melodious Truncheon which, again, encouraged the class to auto-attack. Guardians Mace can be added to the list as well, to a lesser extent. And the same idea applies to the PoS spear, but with it needing a different proc altogether to be worth a damn.

Of course, all classes have access to procs but it's the presence of groupwide procs that emphasizes the many hats role that bards were granted. They can opt into meleeing and, in some cases, would be questioned for not doing so. DPS is addicted to ATK and haste wasn't so readily available back in classic I imagine, so procs from any of the Velious weapons and/or the epic were probably desired all the more.

Bards can solo while fighting in melee the whole time if they want, but it's only effective because of their magic (songs), not because of their melee capability. Similar to Shaman fighting in melee all the time when slow tanking. Like yeah you're in melee, but it's mainly to exploit the non-melee abilities you have.

Hmm I would say that bard magic compensates for their physical damage, whereas the magic of other hybrids complements it. To me, bards are melee-lite. The devs gave them dual wield, parry, and riposte. Nothing to write cshome about, but good enough, especially when compared to other classes.

[Snaggles]

Neither of those numbers feel like a melee archetype. Bard is obviously "more melee" than a caster but nobody plays them because of their pure melee capability, and it would be misleading when a new player asks "I want to play a melee character, which one would I like most" to ever tell them to play a Bard. People play melee either because they want to be a tank or because they want to see big damage happening when they swing their weapons. Those are not things Bards excel at. You need to twist songs every 3 seconds to excel as a Bard, which are things that can be interrupted when getting hit, the same as spells. Bards are more caster than they are melee.

It’s a hybrid melee for that reason. Otherwise it would have bind and gate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s a hybrid melee for that reason. Otherwise it would have bind and gate.

Agreed. Bards have the main hand damage bonus. No casters have that. This is the best evidence to support Bards being a hybrid IMO. Same with Rangers/SK's/Paladins, who also have the main hand damage bonus.

[Snaggles]

Agreed. Bards have the main hand damage bonus. No casters have that. This is the best evidence to support Bards being a hybrid IMO. Same with Rangers/SK's/Paladins, who also have the main hand damage bonus.

Yea, aside from combat tables the lack of mana use for all but two songs and mana regen spells not affecting the bard is another curious one for “not a melee”.

It’s not odd that most bards swarm to 60. I charmed mostly which was easy and less stressful (but slower exp). On live many reverse kited since people played more casually. Geared bards will tank geos in place and melee away (my buddy did it 57-60), swapping MH instruments and clicking the SS BP. In groups some bards will melee, others won’t. On raids with an epic and melees in your group you will melee a lot.

Being able to kill stuff in various ways, group, solo, and be a useful in raids makes for an outstanding class. Gearing one is VERY affordable. Clicking songs constantly can be annoying but it’s still exciting to play as a begrudging clicker…I just tend to use another class thats less work. I also complain about torping back mana though so take that with a grain of salt, lol.

[zelld52]

Y'all are just dense. Having Gate is not what differentiates Melee from Non-Melee.

Melee combat is. Swarming and charming are not melee combat.

I'll concede that bards are melee characters because they get dual wield and main-hand damage bonus - but nobody has admitted that suggesting a bard to swarm and charm for someone looking for a MELEE FOCUSED TOON is proof of your inability to comprehend basic information.

[Cecily]

Can you please keep your insults to the Rants and Flame section of forums? Thank you. This is your last warning.

[zelld52]

This message is hidden because Cecily is on your ignore list.

Just ignore me back Cecily, I have no interest in having any type of discussion with you, ever, about anything.

[Cecily]

Can you please keep your insults to the Rants and Flame section of forums? Thank you. This is your last warning.

[Snaggles]

Y'all are just dense. Having Gate is not what differentiates Melee from Non-Melee.

Melee combat is. Swarming and charming are not melee combat.

I'll concede that bards are melee characters because they get dual wield and main-hand damage bonus - but nobody has admitted that suggesting a bard to swarm and charm for someone looking for a MELEE FOCUSED TOON is proof of your inability to comprehend basic information.

OP posted in this thread, of which the subheading says “Rogue / Monk / Ranger / Bard”. I would presume they were open to these four classes, potentially also the “Tank” archetypes.

People offered the bard as a suggestion. Others agreed this can be easily soloed via charming and swarming. At no point did the OP say they were unwilling to play a bard, use these techniques, or not use these techniques. A bard can easily melee to 60 as well, whether “toe to toe” fighting or reverse kiting like a SK (presuming you consider a SK a melee per that definition).

At no point did we suggest a cleric, shaman, or necro, classes which can melee to exp as well. At no point we suggested a ranger but only for bow rotting, of which that too is viable.

You are the one attempting to reinvent the definitions 26 years after game was designed. People aren’t agreeing with you so you are pouting and insulting them. Again, try harder to flip the status quo understanding of the game or realize you lack the reasoning to even convince the majority of people that a bard is not a hybrid melee class. Maybe it’s the plate armor, duel wielding weapons, not being able to quickly regen mana, not having essential caster spells, but having quintessential combat skills (like riposte)? If you lack an understanding, maybe ask ChatGTP to explain what the bard is. It might be more successful than I have been.

[zelld52]

OP posted in this thread, of which the subheading says “Rogue / Monk / Ranger / Bard”. I would presume they were open to these four classes, potentially also the “Tank” archetypes.

People offered the bard as a suggestion. Others agreed this can be easily soloed via charming and swarming.

I see your point about the subheading, but that does not change the fact that:

Charming and swarming are not melee combat.

My point is that it sounded like OP wanted to take a break from spellcasters, and wanted to have a toon that was easier to play. Charming and Swarming are not easier than meleeing. I could be wrong about OPs intention - but I've been around p99 long enough to know that people who main casters enjoy having a lower-effort toon to log in and just auto attack on.

[Ennewi]

So two obvious, non-melee aspects of the class are telling when looked at in combination. The bard has free movement while casting, uninterrupted, no concentration required, and yet it's allowed all of 1 skill point in meditation. That isn't a caster in any traditional sense. It also disregards channeling altogether and, typically, does not consume mana when casting. It isn't subject to mana drain effects, even when succored. Each one of these features is unique and excludes it from all other casters.

None of its combat skills come with an asterisk when compared to other melee classes. It has mainhand damage bonus, dual wield, and the epic proc specifically benefits melee attacks, its own and others.

[zelld52]

None of its combat skills come with an asterisk when compared to other melee classes. .

Au contraire:

Riposte: Bards Max = 75. Next lowest is Shadowknight at 175
Parry: Bards Max = 75. Next lowest is Shadowknight at 175

And of course, they do not get double attack.


Worst damage mitigation skills of all the melee combat characters, probably done to balance the class out against their powerful songs like Slow, Mez, Charm, etc.


Also, if you parse raid encounters where bards are actively DPSing with melee, and not just providing support, you notice a trend- Bards are wayyyyyy at the bottom of the DPS parses below the knights, ever so slightly above mage pets (and in some cases Mage and Necro pets out DPS bards). This is because they don't get double attack and can't use any of the cool 2 handed weapons. This improves alot when they finally get double attack AA, but they are still the worst melee DPS.

Bards are melee, but just barely. Bards primary role on raids is not to add melee DPS or tank (the two options for a melee focused character), its to provide support. In a group, while levelling: Bards primary role is also not to add melee DPS, but typically to pull and/or provide support in the form of crowd control, song buffs or mana regen. The best bards I've grouped with don't even equip a weapon most times.


To anticipate the argument: "Well monks primary role is to pull, not to DPS"

Sure - but monks are also the second (and sometimes best) melee DPS on raids or in levelling groups. They can also tank raid mobs, or tank for levelling groups.

Rangers can't tank shit at level 60 - but they have like 2x the melee DPS of bards with equivalent gear, and fall behind monks and rogues, but do way better than Knights, and are mostly on-par with warriors. Knights can't DPS for shit, but they get great tanking abilities.

[Zuranthium]

Bards are unique, of course. But casting spells through alternate means than mana, or being able to move while casting, are things that could be built into the design of another caster class.

In the dichotomy of deciding whether something is more physical or more caster, no physical class is capable of being fully effective without attacking. Bards have the same effectiveness as a caster without attacking. The height of their powers involves not attacking and not being in melee, as they want to space away from the thing they are charming (or utilize swarm kiting - very much a caster thing).

No melee class has charm, mesmerize, haste and mana regen buffs, slow and mana drain debuffs, and mass AoE spell damage. It's possible to design hybrid melee classes that do have some of this, but when you're able to "cast" high potency spells non-stop, you have to be considered more of a caster than a physical class.

[Ennewi]

Au contraire:

Riposte: Bards Max = 75. Next lowest is Shadowknight at 175
Parry: Bards Max = 75. Next lowest is Shadowknight at 175

And of course, they do not get double attack.

The asterisk for its casting has to do with unique differences that both hinder and enhance, but distinguish it from all others; there is no melee equivalent in this case. It still has parry and riposte which function the same, just less often. None of the purecaster or priest classes gain the parry or riposte skill, further separating the bard from them. Having a skill versus not, these are class type distinctions...but having a low skill level versus high, that is not. Shadow Knight has lower piercing skill than Paladin, but the skill is available to it all the same.

Worst damage mitigation skills of all the melee combat characters, probably done to balance the class out against their powerful songs like Slow, Mez, Charm, etc.

But those skill caps were increased as time went on within the classic timeline.

Bards are melee, but just barely. Bards primary role on raids is not to add melee DPS or tank (the two options for a melee focused character), its to provide support. In a group, while levelling: Bards primary role is also not to add melee DPS, but typically to pull and/or provide support in the form of crowd control, song buffs or mana regen. The best bards I've grouped with don't even equip a weapon most times.

Agreed to an extent, but on raids their role can be to add melee DPS however indirect that may be, through ds and/or atk. In terms of leveling, if there were two bards in a group, one could cover those other roles while the other pulled. Or at least they would be able to tank here, before the aggro nerf to songs/procs. By all accounts, their ability in classic to hold aggro was unparalleled due to a number of reasons, one being no mana limitation.

To anticipate the argument: "Well monks primary role is to pull, not to DPS"

Sure - but monks are also the second (and sometimes best) melee DPS on raids or in levelling groups. They can also tank raid mobs, or tank for levelling groups.

Rangers can't tank shit at level 60 - but they have like 2x the melee DPS of bards with equivalent gear, and fall behind monks and rogues, but do way better than Knights, and are mostly on-par with warriors. Knights can't DPS for shit, but they get great tanking abilities.

One reason why EQ is so satisfying to replay--each class has strengths and weakness to varying degrees, which gear helps with.

[zelld52]

The asterisk for its casting has to do with unique differences that both hinder and enhance, but distinguish it from all others; there is no melee equivalent in this case.

what? LOL. Bards dont get double attack. That is THE melee equivalent that hinders bards DPS.

also there's a HUGE difference in damage mitigation from 75 to 175+ parry / riposte. For reference: casters only get 75 Dodge max, and theres a huge difference in shaman damage mitigation compared to lets say knight or ranger

and yeah their role can be to support others melee DPS by adding buffs - but this does not mean they are valid melee DPS characters.

all that being said - i bet in classic bards were pretty OP in groups because they could do it all: tank, heal with songs, dps, pull. but thats a bygone era, and in the age of velious they fell way behind every other melee class with those capabilities

[Ennewi]

what? LOL. Bards dont get double attack. That is THE melee equivalent that hinders bards DPS.

But that isn't a unique difference that's class-defining. Same line of reasoning, monks get triple attack...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

what? LOL. Bards dont get double attack. That is THE melee equivalent that hinders bards DPS.


Main hand damage bonus is a major factor for melee DPS as well, not just double attack. Using my DPS calculator, let's compare a 60 Wizard, 60 Bard, and 60 Shadowknight using Staff of the Silent Star (Fesh Staff). We are pretending the Bard and SK can use this weapon, because it is one of the best weapons a Wizard can use. We are using Wizard, Bard, and Shadowknight so we can see a parse with no double attack and no main hand damage bonus, a parse with main hand damage bonus and no double attack, and a parse with main hand damage bonus and double attack.

All three characters have 100% Haste, 255 STR, and 100 ATK:

Wizard: ~11.5 DPS
Bard: ~38 DPS
SK: ~55 DPS

The DPS gained from the main hand damage is ~27. The DPS gained from Double Attack is ~17.

The main hand damage bonus is the biggest differentiator between Melee/Hybrid and a caster. The developers probably removed Double Attack from Bards because Bards have the strongest spell set compared to the other hybrids.

[kjs86z2]

lol

[zelld52]

But that isn't a unique difference that's class-defining. Same line of reasoning, monks get triple attack...

The following classes get double attack:

Warrior
Rogue
Monk
Ranger
ShadowKnight
Paladin



The following classes do not get double attack:

Cleric
Shaman
Druid
Necromancer
Enchanter
Magician
Wizard
Bard

[kjs86z2]

bard is a caster that can get away with melee if piloted by a VERY competent player

maybe 5% of bards leveling can pull off melee properly

odds are that isnt you...keep that lute out and do your actual job (pulling / quarterbacking the group)

[Crawdad]

People who hate their wrists Good bards are going to have Hand to Hand (100) by 60 from swapping, should really say it all. If not, realize casters get epics with clicks and meleers get epics with procs.

[Duik]

People who hate their wrists Good bards are going to have Hand to Hand (100) by 60 from swapping, should really say it all. If not, realize casters get epics with clicks and meleers get epics with procs.

Good take.

And i never thought about the random fist bumps they'd accumulate by weapon swaps by 60.

Its like learning karate by painting the fence.

[Ennewi]

The following classes get dual wield.

Warrior
Rogue
Monk
Ranger
Bard



The following classes do not get dual wield:

Cleric
Shaman
Druid
Necromancer
Enchanter
Magician
Wizard
Paladin
Shadow Knight

[Zuranthium]

Some rather pointless things being brought up.

Shaman would be able to do better melee damage than Bards in my version of EQ, but that doesn't mean they're not a caster class.

The most difficult categorization theoretically would be a Spellblade. You're meant to be in melee at all times, but if your base melee capability without magic is sub-par, which categorization fits more?

[Goregasmic]

Who cares what they are? You get no actionable knowledge from solving that riddle.

Didn't we have a geared bard on here who melee'd down crypt caretaker solo?

Aren't most of the good songs unaffected by instruments?

If a bard solos in kithicor forest and no one is around to hear it, does he make a sound?

[Ennewi]

It's been debated since EQ's release and even in beta, but it's fun to see how the class is viewed now, after all this time, compared to back then.


https://dbsanfte.github.io/eq-archives/mailing-lists/eqbards/html/20346.html

Message ID: 20346
Date: Thu Jul 6 20:51:53 BST 2000
Author: Kevin L. Crawford
Subject: Re: [eqbards] Bards forgotten again....


Umm actually, Kit, if you page back several months, I've been saying that
all along. Bard Melee is pathetic after level 20, when all the other
Hybrids get double attack. After 20th level we start to get really dusted
in melee ability. After 16th they start to dust us in defensive as well so
by level 22 or so we are horrendously behind the power curve melee wise.

Bard = Caster in Plate, just like a cleric, with slightly better offense
skill and a slightly higher dodge cap.

Actually Cleric is a VERY good comparison, melee power wise, to a bard.
Except that they only get 4 points per level for OFFENSE and DEFENSE and we
get 5. And their Dodge, I believe, is capped at 75

Basically a Bard is a Caster with pretentions at being melee.

Any bard who thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. And I've been saying
that since beta.

From: "Kimes, Dean W." <dean_kimes@...>
To: <eqbards@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 3:09 PM
Subject: RE: [eqbards] Bards forgotten again....


> It is interesting to see that when I long ago argued that our melee skills
> were only barely superior to that of shamans there were many who argued
> vehemently that we were far better at melee. It seems now that more bards
> are beginning to agree that our melee skills are not far beyond those of
> some of the "pure" casters.
>
> Kit
>
>
> Actually his statement is exactly right. Our Melee skills are hardly our
> defining trait. Being only barely a notch above shaman and druids in our
> melee ability. Sure we get dual wield but they can wield 2h blunt
weapons.
> So we're better at melee, but not near on par with the 'true' melee
classes
> that get dual wield and double attack or just double attack but can wield
> 2hs weapons or 1hs and use a shield to bash. Either way, any of the real
> melee classes are "defined" by their melee skills. We are "defined" by
our
> ability to sing songs.
>
> (and almost any bard will tell you that our songs are far more powerful
than
> our melee ability)
>
> Lyrnia


https://dbsanfte.github.io/eq-archives/mailing-lists/eqbards/html/13157.html

Message ID: 13157
Date: Mon Jan 17 20:18:44 GMT 2000
Author: Mike.Langlois@xxxxxxxxx.xxx
Subject: Are we Hybrids?


This is a repost of something I posted to the GZ questions thread.
I think we should be re-classed as casters, much like Shamans and Clerics.

Comments?

Feel free to burn me at the stake for being a heretic, but some good logical
responses would be nice as well :)

----------------------------------
I'd like to pitch in my two coppers on the Binding Issue.

I understand that the Dev Team feels that the current bind status (Hybrids and
Melee classes don't get it) is unlikely to change and is well balanced. For the
most part I agree. However, I'd like to argue that the Bard shouldn't be
classed as a Hybrid. Sound crazy?

Hybrids are Warrior/Pure Caster combos. They get some melee skills in addition
to the spells from a specific casting class. IE Rangers get Warrior skills and
Druid spells.

Our spells are unique in that they may mimic some existing spells, but they do
not come from any particular casting class. We are a casting class unto
ourselves with completely different spells and casting structure.

To be a Hybrid you must be part Melee class (Warrior, or in our case Rogue) and
part caster. We've got the caster part down, but where is the Melee part? We
get Plate, but so do Clerics. Everyone gets Dodge.

If you skip dodge, what Melee skills do the Hybrids get?

Ranger - (7) Kick, Taunt, Dual Wield, Double Attack, Parry, Disarm, Riposte
Paladin- (6) Taunt, Bash, Parry, Double Attack, Riposte, Disarm
SK - (6) Taunt, Bash, Parry, Double Attack, Reposte, Disarm
Bard - (1) Dual Wield


So, the other Hybrids really are part fighter and part caster. In what way does
ONE melee skill make us part fighter? In addition, all other Hybrids get
Archery except Bards.

I fail to see how we can be classed as Hybrids at all, and feel that the
addition of a personal Bind song to be in line with the current Bind thinking.

If we're to have the disadvantages of a Melee Hybrid, shouldn't we get the
skills to compensate? If not, shouldn't we get the pure caster perks?

So far, we have a stick with 2 short ends :) Thanks for the time...

Golias, Sol Ro

[Ennewi]

https://dbsanfte.github.io/eq-archives/mailing-lists/eqbards/html/13159.html

Message ID: 13159
Date: Mon Jan 17 20:33:57 GMT 2000
Author: Dave Gaines
Subject: Re: Are we Hybrids?


Much easier distinction at level 50.

A hybrid/melee will not sit on his/her butt during a fight.
A caster/healer will sit on his/her butt during a fight.

You deserve bind if you spend 90% of your time on your arse.

My 2 cents worth, on the wrong list again
Razzan

[Duik]

Can run (really really fast as it turns out) while casting.

Does not sit during melee.

Cannot hit as good as pure melee.

Cannot cast as good as a pure caster.

Marked as Bard. Says so on the box.

Casts so badly that they need to recast each 3 seconds. The equivalent of the (annoying) child on a long car trip that says "are we there yet", but eventually you are there so proves they did something.

[Drueric]

I need a break from my druid and would like a melee character that can solo when I can't find a group. What are the best options for that?

Well.. my warrior currently has leveled up to 31 solo, and I will continue. Though he is very well geared though....

[Jimjam]

Well.. my warrior currently has leveled up to 31 solo, and I will continue. Though he is very well geared though....

My warrior has made 15. He spams the Elixir Delivery quest, killing any xp or tradeskill mob he passes. When Arnis isn’t up we clear the gnoll guards and do a round of black burrow, passing by the dread corpses to vendor in surefall if necessary.

It’s fun saving up stacks of baked goods like bear steaks and spiderling crunchies and grinding tailoring and blacksmithing with the hope of making some studded armour or better.

[Crede]

The answer has always been SK. You can kill for hours straight with no breaks if you understand mob pathing and mix in fear kiting(it really wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be especially if you have a race that can slam or have epic for bash)

Having snare + fd means they can split much better than monks. No need to bring invis pots. The pets are better than given credit for especially if you’re reclaiming for a good one(especially the final 2). They are just the purest solo melee with monks/Pallies competing for second.

[Drueric]

My warrior has made 15. He spams the Elixir Delivery quest, killing any xp or tradeskill mob he passes. When Arnis isn’t up we clear the gnoll guards and do a round of black burrow, passing by the dread corpses to vendor in surefall if necessary.

It’s fun saving up stacks of baked goods like bear steaks and spiderling crunchies and grinding tailoring and blacksmithing with the hope of making some studded armour or better.

I agree experiencing that content is enjoyable, but I dont wanna do it on every toon I play.