Best solo melee class?

[Cecily]

That is a great deal for someone like yourself when you are running out of mana by casting 10 mana spells. You spend zero mana on the initial agro transfer before the mob reaches you, and you may not need to cast as many flame licks.

Remember when I was like it takes me 84 mins to run OOM with flame lick? As others mentioned earlier, it's attrition and more mana objectively increases the length of time that attrition can continue. Running out of mana is ok. Using suboptimal clickies in fear of a break over an hour away is not good advice. Thank you.

[Danth]

Case in point of the relative difference between classes: Shamwowi linked an ice burrower video. Now replace the shadowknight with a ranger. Ranger doesn't have a pet to care about, so if he's solo'ing he doesn't care at all about aggro. He lands 1 ensnare, that lasts a long flippin time so he only has to re-apply it a relative handful of times through a fight. Otherwise it's move-shoot-move-shoot. His mana bar's fine, gloves or no gloves. Totally different tactics, and the snare gloves which are handy for the shadowknight in that situation, collect dust in the ranger's bag.

Kiting for someone else? Ranger would probably rather flame lick--shoot. Still a lot of aggro, and more damage too. Least I would in his place. Mana bar will gradually go down but it'll outlast the burrower.

More likely to use the things in a chain-pulling exp group with no mana regen where the ranger happens to be the tank. Flame lick takes awhile to run you out, but it eventually will, and some exp groups will complain even at one stoppage per hour. Even then it's not THAT likely, kind of a contrived scenario that most ranger players will probably never experience, so I don't really disagree with the folks dismissing the snare click as fluff. It's there, use it if you need it, but you probably won't need it on that class and bag space isn't endless. Frankly I don't use the things all that often on my shadowknight.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Remember when I was like it takes me 84 mins to run OOM with flame lick? As others mentioned earlier, it's attrition and more mana objectively increases the length of time that attrition can continue. Running out of mana is ok. Using suboptimal clickies in fear of a break over an hour away is not good advice. Thank you.

You forget the basic concept that spending zero mana means you have more mana for emergencies. If you are down to 1200 mana from slow attrition, the Ranger who spent zero mana and has a 1600 max mana pool will have more mana available than you do.

My SK uses clickies all the time and doesn't have mana issues in groups.

[Cecily]

No. I didn't forget that. I choose to accept that my mana will run out eventually as a tradeoff of having a higher quality of life during my active playtime. It's actually not a problem for me.

[Naethyn]

I wear https://wiki.project1999.com/Ring_of_Relkententinar because it’s ranger only not because of stats.

[Cecily]

Sometimes I equip my Earthcaller and Wuoshi Shield and walk around pretending I'm female Link. Best use case for that clicky I've found.
It's also really good for ice burrowers because the land rate is like 5% and you will go OOM trying to land ensnare on them

[Goregasmic]

I don't think anybody said to permanentally wear them. On my SK I just swap out my BE Gloves once I am done clicking. It's not hard to do.

Maybe it is just me but at that point I'd just throw on an earring of woven bark and leave it there if I'm gonna use it a lot... and just eat the extra 0,5 cast time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No. I didn't forget that. I choose to accept that my mana will run out eventually as a tradeoff of having a higher quality of life during my active playtime. It's actually not a problem for me.

Your story just doesn't add up. On the one hand you claim that you need the max mana for an 86 minute session, while also suggesting a break will occur well before 86 minutes. This means you don't need 86 minutes of max mana, you can do with less.

[Cecily]

Your story just doesn't add up. On the one hand you claim that you need the max mana for an 86 minute session, while also suggesting a break will occur well before 86 minutes. This means you don't need 86 minutes of max mana, you can do with less.

Literally unreadable.

G7RgN9ijwE4

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Literally unreadable.

Clearly you cannot rebut my argument.

You are suggesting 86 minutes of mana is preferable to 70 minutes of mana. But you also suggest the group will take a break instead of playing for 86 minutes straight.

You are going to break before you run out of mana, even with a lower mana pool.

[bcbrown]

Maybe it is just me but at that point I'd just throw on an earring of woven bark and leave it there if I'm gonna use it a lot... and just eat the extra 0,5 cast time.

Earring of woven bark is great! Got semi-decent stats too until you get to no-drop earrings.

[Cecily]

Have you ever had a dream that, that, um, that you had, uh, that you had to, you could, you do, you wit, you wa, you could do so, you do you could, you want, you wanted him to do you so much you could do anything?
I don't think I ever said anything about taking breaks earlier.

[Danth]

I'll defer to Cecily saying the click actually does get used for burrowers. Figured a mana bar would outlast the burrower even brute-forcing the snare, barring some truly foul RNG luck, since you're basically shooting otherwise, but you'd know better than I do.

[Cecily]

Very important to make the distinction between snare and ensnare in that case, too, because 3 mins is nothing on an iceburrower. Only Wuoshi shield makes sense to click.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't think I ever said anything about taking breaks earlier.

Using suboptimal clickies in fear of a break over an hour away is not good advice. Thank you.

You talked about breaks right there. If the group breaks earlier than 86 minutes, you didn't need the extra mana. If your group is going for like 4 hours straight, spending less mana means more time to play before a break.

[Cecily]

Sure.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sure.

Indeed. Using clickies I can group tank longer than 86 minutes straight on a smaller mana pool. This assumes no trains or emergencies of course. But ill be at high mana in those scenarios, as I am not spending much.

[Cecily]

Absolutely.

[Jimjam]

Lol, no. Maybe if you played a ranger you'd understand why they're worthless.

I think pretty much everyone who has played a ranger has tried them on account of KC being a bit of a ranger's paradise and the gloves dropping like candy at LC. Maybe we are unfairly harsh on them as they aren't particularly good in KC, which paints a bad general first experience of them?

Case in point of the relative difference between classes: Shamwowi linked an ice burrower video. Now replace the shadowknight with a ranger. Ranger doesn't have a pet to care about, so if he's solo'ing he doesn't care at all about aggro. He lands 1 ensnare, that lasts a long flippin time so he only has to re-apply it a relative handful of times through a fight. Otherwise it's move-shoot-move-shoot. His mana bar's fine, gloves or no gloves. Totally different tactics, and the snare gloves which are handy for the shadowknight in that situation, collect dust in the ranger's bag.

Kiting for someone else? Ranger would probably rather flame lick--shoot. Still a lot of aggro, and more damage too. Least I would in his place. Mana bar will gradually go down but it'll outlast the burrower.

More likely to use the things in a chain-pulling exp group with no mana regen where the ranger happens to be the tank. Flame lick takes awhile to run you out, but it eventually will, and some exp groups will complain even at one stoppage per hour. Even then it's not THAT likely, kind of a contrived scenario that most ranger players will probably never experience, so I don't really disagree with the folks dismissing the snare click as fluff. It's there, use it if you need it, but you probably won't need it on that class and bag space isn't endless. Frankly I don't use the things all that often on my shadowknight.

I think my iceburrower solo on my ranger was one of the times that I actually did appreciate tolan's gloves (can't remember if I actually used them, but definitely remember thinking of them). ICs are very resistant to magic and ensnare is expensive - loads of snares were useful. Cecily kindly calculated how much time I spent summoning arrows (and I had to take breaks midfight to replenish supplies as I used so many - I got to burn trueshot twice).

I wear https://wiki.project1999.com/Ring_of_Relkententinar because it’s ranger only not because of stats. Me too, I love your style Big Natty!

[Cecily]

The reason I suspect you didn't use them is because how wildly magic resistant the worms are. It generally takes mins to land it and snare is only 3 min duration. I really like ensnare for them simply because it gives you a lil breathing room, but it's a pain in the ass to stick.

[Jimjam]

The reason I suspect you didn't use them is because how wildly magic resistant they are. It generally takes mins to land it and snare is only 3 min duration. I really like ensnare for them simply because it gives you a lil breathing room, but it's a pain in the ass to stick.
The great thing about soloing an ice burrower (maybe I'll do again in the future and video it... does anyone want to watch a 2 hr video of spamming snare, bracer and shoot?!) is it takes so long you can really mix up and experiment with strategies.

[Danth]

Sounds like the ball joint separator sitting in the bottom of my real-life toolbox out in the garage. It has its use (name kinda hints), I've used it before, might use it again sometime, but it's pretty dirty from neglect and basically just sits there taking up space.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sounds like the ball joint separator sitting in the bottom of my real-life toolbox out in the garage. It has its use (name kinda hints), I've used it before, might use it again sometime, but it's pretty dirty from neglect and basically just sits there taking up space.

I always find it fascinating how people will spend hundreds of DKP and many hours of raid time to get a flowing thought I item on their Ranger.

But they won't spend 500 pp and 40 clicks to get a flowing thought I equivalent via Tolan Gloves.

People will happily swap out their ToV weapons for swarmcaller to proc it. This is no different than swapping your BiS gloves for some free mana.

[Jimjam]

Cos you’ll never fill your inventory, wish for more space and decide you want 400pp + an extra item slot than a swarmy when visiting a vendor.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Cos you’ll never fill your inventory, wish for more space and decide you want 400pp + an extra item slot than a swarmy when visiting a vendor.

I understand the inventory game. Most of my bags are full of resist gear and clickies. You would simply think spending like 700+ DKP on Eye of Cazic Thule means you think a Flowing Thought I item is well worth carrying around/equipping. It may be worth an bag slot more than something else.

[bcbrown]

I think pretty much everyone who has played a ranger has tried them on account of KC being a bit of a ranger's paradise and the gloves dropping like candy at LC. Maybe we are unfairly harsh on them as they aren't particularly good in KC, which paints a bad general first experience of them?

The reason I'm so low on them is mostly because Earring of Woven Bark exists. There's a higher level cap, but from 45-49 they won't be very useful anyway. If you're doing pugs in CoM most stuff doesn't flee. If you're out fear kiting, well, a couple 10 mana panic animals and a 15 mana snare per kill isn't gonna deplete your mana before you're ready for a break anyway.

After level 49, the earring is better because it allows better itemization. There's not a lot of great alternative earrings with better stats, but there are some great gloves like Crystal Chitin, Fiery Might, or even SCHW. I don't think there's going to be any earring/glove combo with Tolan's that beats a combo with Woven Bark until you get into no-drop stuff.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The reason I'm so low on them is mostly because Earring of Woven Bark exists. There's a higher level cap, but from 45-49 they won't be very useful anyway. If you're doing pugs in CoM most stuff doesn't flee. If you're out fear kiting, well, a couple 10 mana panic animals and a 15 mana snare per kill isn't gonna deplete your mana before you're ready for a break anyway.

After level 49, the earring is better because it allows better itemization. There's not a lot of great alternative earrings with better stats, but there are some great gloves like Crystal Chitin, Fiery Might, or even SCHW. I don't think there's going to be any earring/glove combo with Tolan's that beats a combo with Woven Bark until you get into no-drop stuff.

To be clear, my argument has never been that Tolan Gloves are a Ranger's best snare clickie. If you have earring or woushi shield, feel free to use them instead. I also agree with you that having the snare clickie on your ear is easier, as earrings generally have less stats than gloves anyway.

My broader point is that using a snare clickie over a spell cast saves you mana, which is useful. This is especially true if you are running out of mana due to spellcasting.

If you save 600 mana per hour from clicking the snare clickie, you have a flowing thought I item.

[Jimjam]

Maybe it'd be worth saving a spell slot for. IDK, I've always kept at least one snare on bar.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Maybe it'd be worth saving a spell slot for. IDK, I've always kept at least one snare on bar.

It gives you more options for sure. I sometimes have 0 FD spells on my bar, and rely exclusively on BE Greaves for FD.

[Jimjam]

Fall down pants are mighty fine, and that is why my vote is for SK!

[Snaggles]

IMHO, if you can cast snare and/or root, FD and DA…those are always on the bar.

Dying ironically is the most painful way to die.

[Cecily]

Yep. The casted versions are superior. The FD pants are a backup.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yep. The casted versions are superior. The FD pants are a backup.

It's best to use pants whenever possible to save mana. Deaths peace is for emergencies. No reason to spend 120 on a basic mob split.

[Goregasmic]

Earring of woven bark is great! Got semi-decent stats too until you get to no-drop earrings.


After level 49, the earring is better because it allows better itemization. There's not a lot of great alternative earrings with better stats, but there are some great gloves like Crystal Chitin, Fiery Might, or even SCHW. I don't think there's going to be any earring/glove combo with Tolan's that beats a combo with Woven Bark until you get into no-drop stuff.

Yeah, my daily drivers are sarnak earring of station and sarnak pearly bauble. Figured I could switch the earring of station for a woven bark with imperceptible downsides. I also have a pair of HGLs but I'm not sure I'm cool with the -30ac, although I can see it working out in some situations. I'll swap one for earring of living thunder eventually but I just blew all my money on a fungi.

[Naethyn]

Sounds like the ball joint separator sitting in the bottom of my real-life toolbox out in the garage. It has its use (name kinda hints), I've used it before, might use it again sometime, but it's pretty dirty from neglect and basically just sits there taking up space.

You can see my ranger modeling it here. https://wiki.project1999.com/Ye_Auld_Ball_Peen_Hammer

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah, my daily drivers are sarnak earring of station and sarnak pearly bauble. Figured I could switch the earring of station for a woven bark with imperceptible downsides. I also have a pair of HGLs but I'm not sure I'm cool with the -30ac, although I can see it working out in some situations. I'll swap one for earring of living thunder eventually but I just blew all my money on a fungi.

Swapping Earring of Station to woven bark would be a good move. You won't notice the 5 STR missing.

Grats on the Fungi! It's worth it.

[Penish]

amazing

[Renault]

Why are there 9 pages of discussion about Tolan's gloves for threat in xp groups in a thread about best SOLO melee class? Jesus let it go.

[Cecily]

It's the determining factor.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why are there 9 pages of discussion about Tolan's gloves for threat in xp groups in a thread about best SOLO melee class? Jesus let it go.

Knowing how to save mana via clickies is relevant to soloing as well. If you are kiting with snare, using a snare clickie saves you mana. This means you can solo longer between med breaks.

Even if you get hit once or twice due to the cast time, you can just equip Fungi while running around. 15 HP/Tick is a much faster recovery rate than 1-2 Mana/Tick.

This is especially true when you are playing a class with spell Regen. A 60 Ranger is getting 29 HP/Tick with Fungi and Chloroplast while standing.

Knowing how to spend resources wisely (including HP) is how you optimize your solo kills per hour.

[shovelquest]

It's the determining factor.

lol

[Naethyn]

I like the woushi shield, because I already have buttons on my (1) hotbar for swaping weapons and it doesn't require me to use valuable hotbar space on other slots.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I did a quick video in HS north using Blood Ember Gauntlets and Blood Ember Boots for fear kiting. I used SK Epic for my weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjWT9dj2uI

I started at 100% HP and Mana. After 6 kills, I ended the 6th kill at 100% HP and Mana. This was without taking any breaks between kills. I did not meditate at all.

This is an example of how strong clickies are when it comes to saving mana. For all of the people wary about clickie cast times, Blood Ember Boots have a 7 second cast time, and the gloves have a 5 second cast time. I was able to land them just fine without any significant issues to the overall session.

[Vexenu]

I did a quick video in HS north using Blood Ember Gauntlets and Blood Ember Boots for fear kiting. I used SK Epic for my weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjWT9dj2uI

I started at 100% HP and Mana. After 6 kills, I ended the 6th kill at 100% HP and Mana. This was without taking any breaks between kills. I did not meditate at all.

This is an example of how strong clickies are when it comes to saving mana. For all of the people wary about clickie cast times, Blood Ember Boots have a 7 second cast time, and the gloves have a 5 second cast time. I was able to land them just fine without any significant issues to the overall session.

Have you experimented with just using the gauntlets and casting Spook the Dead instead of clicking the boots? Much shorter cast time and only 10 mana. With a five-second difference in cast time, you could med the mana back after each kill and come out ahead, even without a FT item.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Have you experimented with just using the gauntlets and casting Spook the Dead instead of clicking the boots? Much shorter cast time and only 10 mana. With a five-second difference in cast time, you could med the mana back after each kill and come out ahead, even without a FT item.

Yes, I do this already in HS. I had Spook the Dead on bar.

The point was to show you can do it with Blood Ember Boots too and still end with 100% HP and Mana.

Some posters like Cecily seem to think clicky cast times are a major problem, but they generally aren't, even at 7 seconds.

I have FT1 and FT2, and I still use blood ember boots to save mana. Not all targets are undead. Blood Ember Boots save you 40 mana on a live target. So even if you don't want to use them on undead, this strategy works just fine on live mobs.

And yes, you can med a tick between pulls. But unless you are counting server ticks, you may end up waiting 5 seconds for the next server tick anyway.

[Crede]

Have you experimented with just using the gauntlets and casting Spook the Dead instead of clicking the boots? Much shorter cast time and only 10 mana. With a five-second difference in cast time, you could med the mana back after each kill and come out ahead, even without a FT item.

I could usually go 2+ hours before needing a med break on my sk in HS. Slam/epic is extremely helpful in close quarters fear kiting. I typically always used spook for undead, and boots for the live mobs. I would also use dooming to lead depending on positioning and how slow I needed the mob to be. But once at around 50% engulfing was always plenty slow to finish the job. As demonstrated in this thread, the epic is extremely good at mitigating damage due to the life tap proc. I would usually proc epic then switch to great spear of dawn and go back and forth balancing tanking and fear kiting.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I could usually go 2+ hours before needing a med break on my sk in HS. Slam/epic is extremely helpful in close quarters fear kiting. I typically always used spook for undead, and boots for the live mobs. I would also use dooming to lead depending on positioning and how slow I needed the mob to be. But once at around 50% engulfing was always plenty slow to finish the job. As demonstrated in this thread, the epic is extremely good at mitigating damage due to the life tap proc. I would usually proc epic then switch to great spear of dawn and go back and forth balancing tanking and fear kiting.

Yeah this basically what I do as well. The main difference is I probably use Dooming less. I use it for the first mob I kill on ramp sometimes since I have less runway, but I mostly just use gloves. Also I don't have a great spear for swap.

If you are killing the mobs on the North ramp, usually engulfing darkness is good enough, even above 50%:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjWT9dj2uI

But I'd certainly use Dooming in other areas if the runway is too small.

[Cecily]

Maybe I'll record 30 mins running of farming Crushbone with a Vulak Axe to demonstrate how clickies are unnecessary.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Maybe I'll record 30 mins running of farming Crushbone with a Vulak Axe to demonstrate how clickies are unnecessary.

Clearly Howling Stones is just as easy as Crushbone. Your game knowledge is truly impressive!

You could record your Ranger and show us why you think you are correct about clickies. But then you would open yourself up to critisism of your playstyle. Your ego probably wouldn't allow that.

I've proven you wrong with multiple videos now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGMz5gpf_EY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjWT9dj2uI

People can decide who is more credible:

1. Cecily, who leveled 3 Rangers to 60 and still goes OOM in XP groups due to a lack of mana management knowledge.

2. Factual videos.

There's nothing wrong with not knowing something. It is ok to admit you are wrong from time to time, and learn from others.

I am not trying to be mean here. From what I have seen you simply have a pattern of using the argument from authority fallacy. It is great that you have leveled 3 Rangers to 60. You know more about Rangers than I do. But that doesn't mean you know everything, and are unable to learn from others.

[Cecily]

I don't get what you're saying. A Vulak Axe would work just as well in Splitpaw with no clickies needed either.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't get what you're saying. A Vulak Axe would work just as well in Splitpaw with no clickies needed either.

Your sarcasm doesn't hurt my argument, or help yours.

Thanks for showing you cannot rebut my arguments!

[Cecily]

I've known a lot of ogre roleplayers over the years. What your interpretation of an ogre wiseman lacks in humor it makes up with authenticity.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I've known a lot of ogre roleplayers over the years. What your interpretation of an ogre wiseman lacks in humor it makes up with authenticity.

Thank you for continuing to prove that you cannot rebut my arguments. Insults, sarcasm, and fallacies are all you have left.

If you don't have mana recovery, those cheap spells will eventually tank your mana and the recovery is bad.

You agree with me that even cheap spells eventually drain your mana. I showed that you can use your snare clickie (Tolan Gloves, Woven Bark Earring, or Woushi Shield) to save mana. Spending zero mana is a great way to save it:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3764176&postcount=428

So you suggest spending 8 seconds on an incoming mob to get agro similar to 10 mana? Yeah that sounds awful. Stop giving advice.

When you suggested 4 second cast times were too long (the 8 seconds Cecily is referencing is two clicks of a 4 second cast time clickie), I showed you that I can consistently use 5 second and 7 second clickies to save mana, while also maintaining my HP:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3764650&postcount=543

The interesting thing about your two comments is they contradict themselves. On the one hand you say cheap spells drain your mana, while simultaneously scoff at saving mana by not spending it.

Hopefully one day you will decide to move past your pride and try new things. You might just end up lasting longer than 86 minutes before needing a med break in XP groups.

[Ephirith]

DSM in 2025, favoring sustained output over max mana:

Let me ask you a question. Do you always meditate back to full mana before starting a new encounter, or do you sometimes start a new encounter under 100% mana?

If you generally start a new encounter at say 2000/2400 mana, you are not using 400 of your max mana that is from gear in each of those encounters.

Max mana is good when you are starting an encounter at max mana, let's say a solo artist challenge. You can cast more spells in a short period before OOM.

This is true across all classes. You don't need 3 60 Rangers to understand this.

On my SK I don't wait until 100% mana to start fighting a new mob in a group when I am tanking and/or pulling.

Fixing the group's issues is more efficient than stacking max mana.

Max mana should be a lower priority for sure. When trying to maximize kills per hour, you generally aren't meditating to full mana before the next kill, so extra max mana is often unused.

DSM in 2023, favoring max mana over sustained output:

I think you may have forgotten we are talking about SKs.

SKs don't need to worry about gating mobs, they have fear and snare. This can be used in both solo and group scenarios. Both of these spells use mana (INT), and Iksars do not have access to Blood Ember Clickies. Preventing a mob from gating completely is much more effective than slightly faster kill speeds. If you are doing a solo challenge mob that is immune to fear, that is one of the situations where the INT comes in handy! You are going to be using your full mana bar for that kind of fight, including the +20 INT from starting stats.

In a raid you have full access to buffs, which means you are STR capped anyway. You are getting +135 STR from Maniacal Strength and Focus of Spirit, which means you only need 120 STR before buffs. You simply need +40 STR from your gear on an Iksar SK if you put your starting stats into INT. I would be amazed if a level 60 melee class had less than +40 STR from gear. Please do not try and use the argument that asking for Maniacal strength is some kind of burden on Shamans lol. I have raid buffed for years, and never had an issue with buffing people with DEX and STR in addition to FoS and STA.

You are massively overestimating the small benefits you are getting from +20 STR via starting stats. Please stop telling people they are getting massive gains. This is simply false. I have provided plenty of counter evidence thus far, which you have yet to refute.

Using your analogy, INT is constantly having a 16 gallon tank. STR is having a small 1 gallon attachment to your 15 gallon tank that occasionally falls off.

Would you prefer a 16 gallon tank, or a 15 gallon tank with a 1 gallon attachment that sometimes falls off?

When you are stat capped, you get nothing.

INT is always helping.

I have shown that there are going to be a lot of scenarios in which a 4-5% DPS boost is not going to give you any more kills per hour.

Blah blah blah

Yes I remember this thread because it was where I finally got triggered and butthurt enough to put him on ignore on my old account.

He's at it again!

+20 STR to smash your keyboard and ensure that you don't waste time replying to DSM threads.
+20 STA to have the endurance required to keep up with DSM threads
+20 DEX to type replies more quickly in DSM threads
+20 INT to come up with stronger arguments in DSM threads
+20 WIS to understand from the get-go that you shouldn't even bother responding to DSM threads
+20 CHA to post better memes and gifs in DSM threads

Typical DSM M.O, pick some absurd, reductionist position that completely misses the forest for the trees and plant your feet for 60 pages. The positions don't even have to be logically consistent with each other across threads! I thought about doing a Clear argues with Clear but it's too much effort.

https://i.imgur.com/OBYGg9h.jpeg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM in 2025, favoring sustained output over max mana:



DSM in 2023, favoring max mana over sustained output:







Yes I remember this thread because it was where I finally got triggered and butthurt enough to put him on ignore on my old account.

He's at it again!



Typical DSM M.O, pick some absurd position that completely misses the forest for the trees and plant your feet for 60 pages. The positions don't even have to be logically consistent with each other across threads! I thought about doing a Clear argues with Clear but it's too much effort

You should actually read these posts instead of simply posting them and claiming a non-existant victory. It makes you look really bad lol. You haven't improved at reading comprension or context it seems.

[Cecily]

After some testing, I can say with some authority that clickies are absolutely required to not kill Tserrina. Here's proof:

https://i.imgur.com/AbFB7Uo.png

[Ephirith]

You should actually read these posts instead of simply posting them and claiming a non-existant victory. It makes you look really bad lol. You haven't improved at reading comprension or context it seems.

Thank you for continuing to prove that you cannot rebut my arguments. Insults, sarcasm, and fallacies are all you have left.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

After some testing, I can say with some authority that clickies are absolutely required to not kill Tserrina. Here's proof:

https://i.imgur.com/AbFB7Uo.png

Great! Nobody has claimed you need clickies to kill her. Nor did anybody claim you need clickies to kill mobs in Howling Stones.

The specific word here is "need". You can certainly play less efficiently and kill less mobs per hour by ignoring clickies when they make sense. Nobody is stopping you.

I also stated in this very thread max mana can be useful for killing more difficult mobs. You are comparing mana sustain in XPing scenarios (solo and group) to killing the boss mob of a dungeon. Perhaps you don't understand the difference?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thank you for continuing to prove that you cannot rebut my arguments. Insults, sarcasm, and fallacies are all you have left.

The difference here is people can just read my quotes and see you are wrong.

As a simple example, you quoted a thread about starting stats. Suggesting you put 20 points into INT as your starting stats doesn't mean I am saying max mana is better than sustain in a solo/group XP session. These are two different discussions.

[bcbrown]

Yeah, my daily drivers are sarnak earring of station and sarnak pearly bauble. Figured I could switch the earring of station for a woven bark with imperceptible downsides. I also have a pair of HGLs but I'm not sure I'm cool with the -30ac, although I can see it working out in some situations. I'll swap one for earring of living thunder eventually but I just blew all my money on a fungi.

Yeah I'd definitely give the woven bark a spin over the earring of station. Statwise it's probably close to a wash depending on other gear, but the clicky is convenient. Living thunder certainly looks nice, but the see invis part is kinda a waste until you outgrow helm of the tracker. Speaking of which, if you don't have one and want one I can hook you up with a MQ for that.

This whole discussion actually has me considering whether I've outgrown my earring of woven bark. It was a hand-me-down from my druid, where I got it while leveling in chardok as a tip from befriending and buffing a necro farmer with regrowth over a couple weeks. It's been great to have, but the mana savings aren't significant and the clicky cast time is annoying. I'm curious what you or any of the other rangers in this thread would suggest for a replacement. I'll trade you the woven bark for that bauble straight up :)

[Ephirith]

Suggesting you put 20 points into INT as your starting stats doesn't mean I am saying max mana is better than sustain in a solo/group XP session. These are two different discussions.

->

4. When soloing, SK's use mana for fear kiting, especially when they are an Iksar without access to Blood Ember. This is a much more efficient manner of leveling than face tanking the mob. The mana is going to help with fear kiting.

Max mana should be a lower priority for sure. When trying to maximize kills per hour, you generally aren't meditating to full mana before the next kill, so extra max mana is often unused.

Which is it, is the max mana helpful for fear kiting leveling, or is it often unused because you generally aren't meditating to full while fear kiting leveling?

The argument could be made that it's both, but that would also mean you're weighting the value of that extra mana far differently then versus now, for the purposes of rhetoric.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

->





Which is it, is the max mana helpful or is it often unused?

It depends on the scenario. You are mixing like three different scenarios together and seemingly suggesting they must all have the same answer. Nuance seems lost on you.

1. In an XP solo/group scenario mana sustain is better, as you aren't meditating back to full mana between kills generally speaking. This means you aren't using a chunk of your max mana. You are also going for long periods of time, so regeneration has plenty of time to operate.

2. In a solo challenge scenario, the fight is often only going to last maybe 5-10 minutes, so sustain is less useful. This is where max mana can be more useful. You are starting at full mana, and you don't have a lot of time to regenerate mana. You also probably can't fear kite anyway, as the mobs are 55+ and summon.

3. In the specific case of Iksar SKs, they don't have access to Blood Ember Clickies at all. This means max mana is more useful for Iksars, as they have less sustain options.

I said all of this already in this thread and those quotes.

[Ephirith]

It depends on the scenario. You are mixing like three different scenarios together and seemingly suggesting they must all have the same answer. Nuance seems lost on you.

1. In an XP solo/group scenario mana sustain is better, as you aren't meditating back to full mana between kills generally speaking. This means you aren't using a chunk of your max mana. You are also going for long periods of time, so regeneration has plenty of time to operate.

Yes, this was my point exactly, and you are disagreeing with yourself in the other thread, because kill speed is directly proportional to mana sustain. Faster kills = less spells cast, less lost opportunity cost in stunted regen, lower damage taken, and minimized suboptimal positioning considerations while waiting for a long clickie cast. The contribution from 20 STR or 20 DEX, though infinitesimal, adds up over that long period of time, and it's a solo/group scenario so those stats will not be capped in 80% of players, ESPECIALLY the type of player that is asking this type of question.

2. In a solo challenge scenario, the fight is often only going to last maybe 5-10 minutes, so sustain is less useful. This is where max mana can be more useful. You are starting at full mana, and you don't have a lot of time to regenerate mana. You also probably can't fear kite anyway, as the mobs are 55+.

Max mana is such a bottom of the barrel shit stat for the majority of classes, especially hybrids casting bargain bin cleric/nec/druid spells, that I think even this debatable. You would have to gain a lot of max mana and/or lose very little sustain in order for that trade-off to come out ahead across a 5-10 minute fight.

3. In the specific case of Iksar SKs, they don't have access to Blood Ember Clickies at all. This means max mana is more useful for Iksars, as they have less sustain options.


->

You also probably can't fear kite anyway, as the mobs are 55+.

Then why is max mana any more useful for an iksar than anyone else, if your solo challenge mobs are 55+ and max mana is a shit stat for other situations, according to you (and me)? What has the iksar lost in that situation, if nobody can click their blood embers?

[Ephirith]

p.s. monk is the superior overall soloist whether you're twinked or not.

[Snaggles]

This whole discussion actually has me considering whether I've outgrown my earring of woven bark. It was a hand-me-down from my druid, where I got it while leveling in chardok as a tip from befriending and buffing a necro farmer with regrowth over a couple weeks. It's been great to have, but the mana savings aren't significant and the clicky cast time is annoying. I'm curious what you or any of the other rangers in this thread would suggest for a replacement. I'll trade you the woven bark for that bauble straight up :)

Two HGL’s are ideal. I have an Earring of Essence only because I’ve been lazy about grabbing another. It’s a solid earring though. If coupled with an EoE, I’d rather use a Blue Diamond earring or Fingerbone Hoop over a pearly bauble. MR is the best for a class that does a lot of pulling.

[Snaggles]

I might have missed the nuance of the debate so my apologies in advance.

With a SK, the case for mana comes down to stunt/named kills that summon and can’t be feared. At this point you are likely proccing Avatar off an eye so STR and Dex are capped. Roughly every 18 INT is another drain soul, to a point.

For this rather narrow definition of “solo”, a 338 DD and heal is pretty solid stat optimization even if you don’t have Avatar. You could instead have about 18 attack, or 93 hps. It’s really one of the few situations where an erudite or DE might be matched to an ogre or troll. In the extreme situation, an erudite loses Slam, regen, and strength but picks up nearly 700 mana. That’s three extra Drain Souls as a reward for struggling to carry fine steel for 59 levels.

Still, most people are going to loot and equip gear that has a variety of stats and there are only so many pieces of gear with preset stats. I wish we could mess with stat sliders…I’d trade agility for damn near anything :) .

[DeathsSilkyMist]

:cool:
The contribution from 20 STR or 20 DEX, though infinitesimal, adds up over that long period of time, and it's a solo/group scenario so those stats will not be capped in 80% of players, ESPECIALLY the type of player that is asking this type of question.


The starting stat discussion has to do with the distribution of stats across items and buffs. Melee classes in Velious will cap STR and DEX eventually via a primal weapon and a combination of raid gear and raid buffs. This means you will eventually stop using those 20 starting stats in STR or DEX, as you'll be capped at 255 anyway. INT will most likely not be capped with gear/buffs, so INT is the better starting stat if you plan on getting a primal and raid gear. 200 extra mana is better than 0 STR or 0 DEX.

Yes, this was my point exactly, and you are disagreeing with yourself in the other thread, because kill speed directly equates to mana sustain. Faster kills = less spells cast or lost opportunity cost in stunted regen, damage output, and suboptimal positioning options while waiting for a long clickie cast.


I can give you a simple example with my recent video:

https://youtu.be/yZjWT9dj2uI?si=PB8P3Gpq26SJVdXO

Lets say we are killing a live mob in HS that needs 3 fears and takes 120 seconds to kill:

1. Fear Boots - 7 seconds cast, 0 mana.
2. Fear Spell - 3.5 second cast, 40 mana.
3. Meditate is 20 mana per tick.

3 casts of Fear is 10.5 seconds of cast time + 6 ticks (36 seconds) of med time. That is 46.5 seconds per kill.

5 casts of Fear Boots (Let's say 2 were interrupted) is 35 seconds per kill.

35 seconds (Fear Boots) is faster than 46.5 seconds (Fear Spell) when you look at both cast time and recovery.

My video already shows that I can maintain my HP with worn regen and Epic Procs, so a bit of extra HP lost during fear casts isn't a big deal.

I am not including standing mana regen, as both scenarios get the same amount of mana from standing mana regen.


Max mana is such a bottom of the barrel shit stat for the majority of classes that I think even this debatable. You would have to gain a lot of max mana and/or lose very little sustain in order for that trade-off to come out ahead across a 5-10 minute fight.


That is why I said it can be more useful. Let's say you have FT1 and FT2. That is 40 mana per minute when including base 1 regen. You are getting 200-400 extra mana, depending on the fight duration. Whether or not the extra mana matters depends on when you need it. If you frontload most of your mana early in the fight (healing yourself while waiting for a slow proc), you may be in a position where you are OOM, and cannot wait another minute to regenerate some mana for another spell. In that case using a Crown of Rile for +300 mana roughly speaking may be better than wearing Narandi Crown for FT2.


Then why is max mana any more useful for an iksar, if your solo challenge mobs are 55+ and max mana is a shit stat for other situations, according to you? What has the iksar lost in that situation, if nobody can click their blood embers?

Max mana works the same for Iksars and non-iksars in a solo challenge scenario.

In solo/group xp scenarios, max mana is the way to increase the time between med breaks if you don't have easy access to cheap sustain items like blood ember clickies. Since Iksars don't have Blood Ember clickies, max mana is basically their only option until raid gear.

Iksars can still get Soul Defiler and Flowing Thought, but Soul Defiler in particular is expensive and rare.

[Ephirith]

In solo/group xp scenarios, max mana is the way to increase the time between med breaks if you don't have easy access to cheap sustain items like blood ember clickies. Since Iksars don't have Blood Ember clickies, max mana is basically their only option until raid gear.

You should not be routinely depleting your mana to 0 in either a solo grinding or group xp scenario. You should be operating in a sustainable way and keeping a reserve for emergencies. If you are burning through to a med break you are making a choice, and it's a suboptimal one. Or you're playing casually watching porn between pulls, in which case none of these considerations matter and by all means stack max mana so you can get more pulls in between your breaks-- that wouldn't be unique to iksar.

You don't have to agree with me, but you should at least agree with yourself. Don't forget, compared to max mana, any option that increases your character's output is an indirect form of sustain.

In an XP solo/group scenario mana sustain is better, as you aren't meditating back to full mana between kills generally speaking.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You should not be routinely depleting your mana to 0 in either a solo grinding or group xp scenario. You should be operating in a sustainable way and keeping a reserve for emergencies. If you are burning through to a med break you are making a choice, and it's a suboptimal one. Or you're playing casually watching porn between pulls, in which case none of these considerations matter and by all means stack max mana so you can get more pulls in between your breaks-- that wouldn't be unique to iksar.

You don't have to agree with me, but you should at least agree with yourself. Don't forget, compared to max mana, any option that increases your character's output is an indirect form of sustain.

I do agree with you, and myself. I've been saying for years people should avoid rolling Iksar SKs due to not having Blood Ember. The lack of Blood Ember is suboptimal, and SK Epic is better than Greenmist.

Why do you think I am pushing for using clickies instead of max mana for solo/group XP scenarios lol? Did you miss the entire conversation?

With all this being said, some people play Iksar SKs anyway. I'm not going to tell them to reroll their characters if they ask for advice. If you play an Iksar, your two choices for more mana to play with between med breaks is more max mana, or raid items. That is the reason why Iksars would favor max mana more. They don't have a choice before raid items.

[Duik]

...watching porn between pulls...

Hehe

[sammoHung]

p.s. monk is the superior overall soloist whether you're twinked or not.

[Goregasmic]

Two HGL’s are ideal. I have an Earring of Essence only because I’ve been lazy about grabbing another. It’s a solid earring though. If coupled with an EoE, I’d rather use a Blue Diamond earring or Fingerbone Hoop over a pearly bauble. MR is the best for a class that does a lot of pulling.

Where do you pull that MR is that significant? Genuinely curious. Outside seb/chardok I don't really see it and groups rarely do chardok. I find getting slowed while soloing is a better reason to wear MR. Considering all the earring options a ranger has EoE is pretty weak when you don't need the MR.

HGL is 30hp over a bauble, the -15ac seems like a steep price to pay if you're not already oozing AC, which won't happen for a non raid geared ranger.

Am I missing something?

[Naethyn]

Lotta things cast on me with MR in KC.

[sammoHung]

Lotta things cast on me with MR in KC.

There's like 4 mobs total in KC that cast, the rest are melee

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah I'd definitely give the woven bark a spin over the earring of station. Statwise it's probably close to a wash depending on other gear, but the clicky is convenient. Living thunder certainly looks nice, but the see invis part is kinda a waste until you outgrow helm of the tracker. Speaking of which, if you don't have one and want one I can hook you up with a MQ for that.

This whole discussion actually has me considering whether I've outgrown my earring of woven bark. It was a hand-me-down from my druid, where I got it while leveling in chardok as a tip from befriending and buffing a necro farmer with regrowth over a couple weeks. It's been great to have, but the mana savings aren't significant and the clicky cast time is annoying. I'm curious what you or any of the other rangers in this thread would suggest for a replacement. I'll trade you the woven bark for that bauble straight up :)

The thing about earrings is they are generally low stat anyway, until you get raid items. They are also often swapped for a resist piece. Earring of Essence and Blue Diamond Earrings will have your MR covered.

Hammered Golden Loop would give you like 74 more max HP over Woven Bark if you aren't STA capped, but the mana savings from the clickie are going to help you more than 74 max HP.

If you are in the position where 74 HP was the difference between life and death, you messed up somehow. Most of the time you will be using the mana savings over the max HP, unless you are raiding. Hammered Golden Loops would be good for raiding to help you stay alive from AoEs.

[Naethyn]

There's like 4 mobs total in KC that cast, the rest are melee

I camp entrance with my paladin solo who I went max MR on and I see casts on myself all the time that are resisted. All the spirits and some of the skeletons. I have an undead weapon so I go for them over dogs.

[Goregasmic]

Lotta things cast on me with MR in KC.

Ghosts and scryer IIRC. Figured with sow, snare and how twisty KC is you can LOS all the way back to camp most of the time, if we're talking pulling. IIRC some of the ghosts are clerics so you get more mileage out of MR by resisting nukes too. Blind and slow also sucks on shamans.

Plenty of good reasons for MR but nothing make or break in an exp group I feel, especially if not tanking. Solo is different since you have the mob's attention for the entire fight.

[Ephirith]

I'm not going to tell them to reroll their characters if they ask for advice.

But you will tell a newb iksar SK, with a statistically infinitesimal chance of making it to raid gear, to put their starting stats into INT instead of STR, STA, or even DEX which is horrendous advice. We know from past data that most people drop their hybrids around 45-52, at a greater rate than other classes. You proceeded to spend 60 pages consistently minimizing the contribution of increased output, with is directly proportional to sustain, in favor of a tiny amount of max mana that might some day be useful when fully raid geared and raid buffed.

There, in page after page, you weighted max mana comparatively highly against various other considerations, and here, page after page, you consistently minimized max mana against various other considerations, because it suited your rhetoric and whatever point you were making. To the extent that you're now both noting that a hybrid should almost never run out of mana, and yet recommending it as a priority stat for iksars in the same post.

If you are in the position where 74 HP was the difference between life and death

Glad to know +HP is optional because if we all play perfectly we'll never die. Bonehead logic, this could be said about any non-output stat. Don't forget rangers are usually DPS and there is a massive opportunity cost to stand there for 4 seconds hard-casting a snare to save 15 mana. Yes you can cast it on pull, but you can also get in a med tick in on pull and generate a lot more than 15 mana.

[kjs86z2]

But you will tell a newb, with a statistically infinitesimal chance of making it to raid gear, to put their starting stats into INT instead of STR, STA, or even DEX which is horrendous advice. We know from past data that most people drop their hybrids around 45-52, at a greater rate than other classes. You proceeded to spend 60 pages consistently minimizing the contribution of increased output, with is directly proportional to sustain, in favor of a tiny amount of max mana that might some day be useful when fully raid geared and raid buffed.

There, in page after page, you weighted max mana comparatively highly against various other considerations, and here, page after page, you consistently minimized max mana against various other considerations, because it suited your rhetoric and whatever point you were making. To the extent that you're now both noting that a hybrid should almost never run out of mana, and yet recommending it as a priority stat for iksars in the same post.



Glad to know +HP is optional because if we all play perfectly we'll never die. Bonehead logic, this could be said about any non-output stat. Don't forget rangers are usually DPS and there is a massive opportunity cost to stand there for 4 seconds hard-casting a snare to save 15 mana. Yes you can cast it on pull, but you can also get in a med tick in on pull and generate a lot more than 15 mana.

at least someone else out there is seeing what im seeing when it comes to DSM lol

[Goregasmic]

But you will tell a newb iksar SK, with a statistically infinitesimal chance of making it to raid gear, to put their starting stats into INT instead of STR, STA, or even DEX which is horrendous advice. We know from past data that most people drop their hybrids around 45-52, at a greater rate than other classes. You proceeded to spend 60 pages consistently minimizing the contribution of increased output, with is directly proportional to sustain, in favor of a tiny amount of max mana that might some day be useful when fully raid geared and raid buffed.

Sir, this is the p99 forums where the answer to all problems is "get more BiS".

[kjs86z2]

If you aren't full BiS at level 46 are you even playing p99?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But you will tell a newb iksar SK, with a statistically infinitesimal chance of making it to raid gear, to put their starting stats into INT instead of STR, STA, or even DEX which is horrendous advice. We know from past data that most people drop their hybrids around 45-52, at a greater rate than other classes. You proceeded to spend 60 pages consistently minimizing the contribution of increased output, with is directly proportional to sustain, in favor of a tiny amount of max mana that might some day be useful when fully raid geared and raid buffed.

There, in page after page, you weighted max mana comparatively highly against various other considerations, and here, page after page, you consistently minimized max mana against various other considerations, because it suited your rhetoric and whatever point you were making. To the extent that you're now both noting that a hybrid should almost never run out of mana, and yet recommending it as a priority stat for iksars in the same post.


The problem here is you have a bias against me, and are thus doing mental gymnastics to try and attack me. You aren't trying to have a real conversation.

Any person with a basic understanding of Everquest can tell you starting stats are a different discussion from itemization.

Starting stats cannot be changed once you create your character. This means you need to consider how your character will look at the end, not just how they look at level 20. Leveling from 1-50 is quite easy, so it is a very short sighted idea to put your unchangeable starting stats into STR just for that purpose. This is especially true considering how much STR gear is available. I have a Gnome Warrior who didn't put any starting stats into STR, and he has like 140 STR already just from EC gear.

And yes, you can have nuanced opinions about stats. Max mana can be useful in certain situations. I am not sure why you think people cannot have nuanced answers.

Finally, you aren't reading what I am saying about Iksars correctly. I am not sure how much simpler I can say it:

1. Non-Iksars can increase the time between med breaks via sustain from Blood Ember Clickies.

2. Iksars cannot use Blood Ember clickies. This means if Iksars want to increase the time between med breaks, INT is their primary option before Soul Defiler and Flowing Thought. There may be a camp of mobs that needs 2000 mana to clear, and the respawn timers do not allow a med break at 1500 mana, as a simple example.


Glad to know +HP is optional because if we all play perfectly we'll never die. Bonehead logic, this could be said about any non-output stat. Don't forget rangers are usually DPS and there is a massive opportunity cost to stand there for 4 seconds hard-casting a snare to save 15 mana. Yes you can cast it on pull, but you can also get in a med tick in on pull and generate a lot more than 15 mana.

More silly attacks that make you look bad. We are talking about swapping a single item. 74 HP at level 60 isn't a lot of HP when mobs are htting you for 140+. Saving mana via clickies could give you enough mana for an extra 270 HP heal. 270 > 74 last time I checked.

A lot of non-clickie spell cast times are around 4 seconds too. That isn't an exceptionally long cast time by any stretch of the imagination. Are you going to tell a 60 SK to avoid casting Drain Soul because it has a 6 second cast time? Even with the hybrid reduction in cast time, you are spending at least 4 seconds.

[shovelquest]

If you aren't full BiS at level 46 are you even playing p99?

Yeah, all it takes is a pair of Tolan's gloves for ranger.

[sajbert]

But you will tell a newb iksar SK, with a statistically infinitesimal chance of making it to raid gear, to put their starting stats into INT instead of STR, STA, or even DEX which is horrendous advice.

Nah. First of all, INT will be more useful than STA 1-60 and especially with shittier gear. With gear there won't be anything you can't group tank either so STA is basically dead. The extra damage from STR is negligible and UNLESS you are doing some weird solo minmax speed leveling shit it won't matter.

Also, sometimes it's less about achieving BIS and more about living the dream.

[sammoHung]

So, if I can summarize what the last 20 or so pages have been about --

Monk is best solo melee?

[bcbrown]

Good advice Snaggles, thanks. Looks like a Blue Diamond will keep me covered until I get a Fingerbone.

Where do you pull that MR is that significant?

Not pulling, but I mostly want resists for dragon AOEs. A skeletal scryer fucked me up pretty bad in KC last night with those 600dd nukes, though. Also nice in Droga if I wanna go farm more skins.

Hammered Golden Loop would give you like 74 more max HP over Woven Bark if you aren't STA capped, but the mana savings from the clickie are going to help you more than 74 max HP.

I'm using the damn clicky earring (which you've never used) and I'm telling you the mana savings aren't important. Furthermore I'm very rarely low-mana. The other night I was constantly nuking off my excess mana and didn't snare a single thing.

at least someone else out there is seeing what im seeing when it comes to DSM lol

Oh we all see it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm using the damn clicky earring (which you've never used) and I'm telling you the mana savings aren't important. Furthermore I'm very rarely low-mana. The other night I was constantly nuking off my excess mana and didn't snare a single thing.


I've used snare clickies before. I have multiple videos in this thread. You don't need to play a ranger to understand the following:

1. Click the clickie
2. Mob is snared
3. You spent zero mana
4. A 4 second cast time is not long, especially when compared to many other non-clickie spells that people cast often.

Please stop using the argument from authority fallacy. I'd love to hear about this supposed knowledge that can only be gleaned from clicking Woven Bark earring specifically.

You can of course have Hammered Golden Loop bagged for scenarios where you don't use snare if you have the bag space. The downside with earring slots is they are swapped for resist gear, so you need to know how to play with less max HP anyway.

You have 3 basic scenarios:

1. When using snare, 5 clicks of woven bark earring gives you enough mana for 270 HP via Greater Healing, which is better than +74 max HP from HGL.

2. When not using snare and not needing resists, you can get +74 max HP from HGL.

3. When you need resists, you are either losing all max HP in that slot for Blue Diamond Earrings, or you have basically the same max HP as Woven Bark Earring when using Earring of Essence.

Until you get a nice all purpose raid earring like Essence Pearl, Vulak Earring, etc., you aren't going to be permanentally using one earring.

[Jimjam]

Ghosts and scryer IIRC. Figured with sow, snare and how twisty KC is you can LOS all the way back to camp most of the time, if we're talking pulling. IIRC some of the ghosts are clerics so you get more mileage out of MR by resisting nukes too. Blind and slow also sucks on shamans.

Plenty of good reasons for MR but nothing make or break in an exp group I feel, especially if not tanking. Solo is different since you have the mob's attention for the entire fight.

The clerics only know cheal.

The callers have nasty spells with their slow and stat/ac debuffs. Also you’ll have to tank swarmcaller, nature’s wrath, etc.

[sammoHung]

The caller's damage will come from their cold nukes (SV COLD)

and the DoTs (Poison, Disease)

And the pet.

Yeah, you might be able to avoid slow - but with ~ 80 MR I routinely resist Togor's.

Again, though... the vast majority of mobs in KC are melee.

[bcbrown]

Please stop using the argument from authority fallacy. I'd love to hear about this supposed knowledge that can only be gleaned from clicking Woven Bark earring specifically.

Yeah, I don't believe that. I could explain (again) but you'll just ignore my reasoning so you can argue with me some more. You're far too stubborn to ever change your mind and I'm not interested in arguing about this with you. I wanted some advice on upgrades from the rangers in this thread and Snaggles provided an excellent suggestion for an upgrade path.

[Cecily]

Yeah, I don't believe that. I could explain (again) but you'll just ignore my reasoning so you can argue with me some more. You're far too stubborn to ever change your mind and I'm not interested in arguing about this with you. I wanted some advice on upgrades from the rangers in this thread and Snaggles provided an excellent suggestion for an upgrade path.

I dislike the negative AC on those hoops. I generally run Fingerbone Hoop / Vindi earring for AC/STR/MR on my melees.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah, I don't believe that. I could explain (again) but you'll just ignore my reasoning so you can argue with me some more. You're far too stubborn to ever change your mind and I'm not interested in arguing about this with you. I wanted some advice on upgrades from the rangers in this thread and Snaggles provided an excellent suggestion for an upgrade path.

As you can see, Bcbrown cannot rebut my arguments yet again. I understand he is biased and trolling. This is his normal routine when responding to me. But this is a weak response even then.

If he knew the answers, he would simply counter my points.

1. He can't explain how Woven Bark earring is unqiue clickie-wise.

2. He cannot rebut the basic idea that most players typically have a set of resist gear they swap to. This means you have to know how to play without your non-resist gear.

3. He has no response to the basic fact that great non-clickie spells have cast times around 4 seconds too.

4. He can't explain why saving mana from clickies is unimportant. He cites the idea that he doesn't use his mana. This implies he doesn't need to heal either. Maybe he needs to use his mana a bit more to speed up killing if he isn't using it.

[Cecily]

He's talking about earring upgrades, not snare clickies, you child.

[Naethyn]

The caller's damage will come from their cold nukes (SV COLD)

and the DoTs (Poison, Disease)

And the pet.

Yeah, you might be able to avoid slow - but with ~ 80 MR I routinely resist Togor's.

Again, though... the vast majority of mobs in KC are melee.

[Sat Aug 09 23:05:06 2025] You resist the Malisement spell!
[Sat Aug 09 23:04:15 2025] You resist the Flash of Light spell!
[Sun Apr 06 18:48:11 2025] You resist the Force Spiral of Al'Kabor spell!
[Sun Apr 06 18:47:07 2025] You resist the Gravity Flux spell!
[Sun Apr 06 18:46:46 2025] You resist the Force Strike spell!
[Sun Mar 02 00:07:43 2025] You resist the Thunderclap spell!
[Sat Mar 01 22:06:59 2025] You resist the Listless Power spell!
[Sat Mar 01 22:06:33 2025] You resist the Togor's Insects spell!
[Sat Mar 01 22:06:17 2025] You resist the Enstill spell!
[Fri Feb 21 22:22:47 2025] You resist the Tishan's Clash spell!
[Sun Dec 22 21:17:37 2024] You resist the Thunderclap spell!
[Tue Dec 31 20:39:39 2024] You resist the Incapacitate spell!

My logs show a total of 223 MR spells resisted in KC since level 54. These are just the unique values in that list.

[bcbrown]

I dislike the negative AC on those hoops. I generally run Fingerbone Hoop / Vindi earring for AC/STR/MR on my melees.

Yeah, Snaggles and I disagree about the relative importance of gearing for AC on a ranger. But instead of yelling at him about it I appreciate the context in which he has his priorities and adapt his advice to apply to my own, different, context. I find that leads to a much more enjoyable and productive discussion than treating every disagreement like high school debate club and going on about rhetorical fallacies and shit.

Appreciate your input too, thanks :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

He's talking about earring upgrades, not snare clickies, you child.

If you read the thread, he is wearing woven bark earring. So yes, it is related. Unequipping a max HP item like Hammered Golden Loop will remove that extra HP you have if you are at full HP. So even swapping between woven bark earring and HGL affects the utility of HGL to some degree.

[Naethyn]

Ranger should be the least impacted by negative AC as they are only just above cloth when it comes to how much real ac they get.

[Cecily]

If you read the thread, he is wearing woven bark earring. So yes, it is related. Unequipping a max HP item like Hammered Golden Loop will remove that extra HP you have if you are at full HP. So even swapping between woven bark earring and HGL affects the utility of HGL to some degree.

The core message is frustration and I don't want to continue talking to you. And you reinforce that feeling with an itemized list of points you've already made. I have some experience working with autistic children, so just let me know if you ever need a neurotypical read on someone's post.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The core message is frustration and I don't want to talk to you by, stupidly, talking to you. And you reinforce that feeling with an itemized list of points you've already made. I have some experience working with autistic children, so just let me know if you ever need a neurotypical read on someone's post.

When you can't win with facts and logic, you act like a child.

I am sorry you think you know everything. It blinds you to learning anything new.

My posts have facts. Your posts have silly insults and nonsense. I feel sorry for you.

[zelld52]

There are entire pages of this post that are hidden from me. Ah, well. Was it anything good?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I would consider the I'm rubber you're glue argument a bit more child-like. You see... I called you a child a few posts back and you can't just hit me back with that and expect it to be impactful. You wanna try another one?

People can read the thread. This is yet another weak response.

I am posting math, facts, logic, and in game evidence to back up my positions.

You respond by acting like a child, claiming you know everything.

The presumption that you have anything to educate me with regarding a class I've leveled and raided with extensively which you also don't play is, quite frankly, presumptuous, and I don't appreciate it.

The person who is lacking in this thread is yourself. You can keep responding like this if you wish. It just means everybody can see your inability to counter my points.

You aren't hurting me, or helping yourself look like an authority.

[Botten]

Ranger should be the least impacted by negative AC as they are only just above cloth when it comes to how much real ac they get.

In regards to damage reduction... when recognizing raid tanking
Warrior > Knight > Monk > Bard > Ranger = Rogue > Shaman > Necro (Who would make a Necro the raid tank!?!?)

But in an exp group tanking in an exp group with Velious gear is serious business!!!
Top BiS or nothing!!! /s

*sigh -.- Rangers can tank in an exp group just fine.

[bcbrown]

Ranger should be the least impacted by negative AC as they are only just above cloth when it comes to how much real ac they get.

Yeah it seems like most people with a lot of experience with melee in EQ think AC isn't very important on a ranger. When I did a little parsing I didn't find any ranger-specific limitations on AC, but I was also comparing to a druid and a cleric so I don't have a high degree of confidence in my conclusions. I found that there's a hit distribution where roughly a third of hits are either for min or max value, and that adding AC shifts hits from max value to min, and that once there's <3% hits for min value adding AC doesn't help.

My interpretation of the "don't bother gearing rangers for AC" school of thought is that when raiding you're either not getting hit or you're bumping, so it's not a priority. That makes a ton of sense, but I'm not 60 yet so I'm still gearing AC for when I'm tanking.

I'd love to hear your detailed thoughts on ranger AC, and perhaps your thoughts on the parsing I did in this thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=438517&page=10).


There are entire pages of this post that are hidden from me. Ah, well. Was it anything good?

Just the usual.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just the usual.

Unfortunately true. Bcbrown and Cecily will continue to use the argument from authority fallacy, while proving no evidence or counter points of their own.

If they are so confident in their knowledge, they wouldn't use fallacies to try and win a debate.

[Ephirith]

When you can't win with facts and logic, you act like a child.

The problem is that there is no point engaging with someone who has a very poor capacity for logic themselves. Your ability to coherently progress from premises to conclusions across multiple variables is pitiful and embarrassing; your "arguments" are rhetoric disguised as reasoning.

It should be a clue for you that almost everyone who engages with you eventually realizes this; in thread after thread, you develop this reputation. It took me two years and being on a different account that didn't have you on ignore to make this mistake again.

Unfortunately true. Bcbrown and Cecily will continue to use the argument from authority fallacy, while proving no evidence or counter points of their own.

If they are so confident in their knowledge, they wouldn't use fallacies to try and win a debate.

What they didn't teach you in your undergrad writing class is that appeal to authority isn't a fallacy when the conduct of your argument is generating such a negative consensus about you that it's undermining your ability to effectively engage with the community. It's like a man waving his dick at traffic and chastising all the honking cars for honking instead of using 'logic'.

Yeah it seems like most people with a lot of experience with melee in EQ think AC isn't very important on a ranger. When I did a little parsing I didn't find any ranger-specific limitations on AC, but I was also comparing to a druid and a cleric so I don't have a high degree of confidence in my conclusions. I found that there's a hit distribution where roughly a third of hits are either for min or max value, and that adding AC shifts hits from max value to min, and that once there's <3% hits for min value adding AC doesn't help.

My interpretation of the "don't bother gearing rangers for AC" school of thought is that when raiding you're either not getting hit or you're bumping, so it's not a priority. That makes a ton of sense, but I'm not 60 yet so I'm still gearing AC for when I'm tanking.

I'd love to hear your detailed thoughts on ranger AC, and perhaps your thoughts on the parsing I did in this thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=438517&page=10).

Just to add another kinda weak data point, when I played my ranger there was a time I went the ultra-high AC route, given that I was often tanking for groups, and I thought I was being clever. I parsed a few sessions (not enough sessions for it to be super meaningful data), but I never really noticed a difference between my very high AC set and my normal set (and the normal set had low-moderate priority for AC).

[bcbrown]

Just to add another data point, when I played my ranger there was a time I went the ultra-high AC route, given that I was often tanking for groups, and I thought I was being clever. I parsed a few sessions (not enough sessions for it to be super meaningful data), but I never really noticed a difference between my very high AC set and my normal set (and the normal set had low-moderate priority for AC).

Appreciate the data point. I'd love it if you'd read that thread and give your thoughts. One conclusion is that there's a mob-specific "squelch point" above which there's minimal hits for max damage, and more AC above that value isn't helpful. For level 40-45 mobs that value is around 150-200 worn AC. How much worn AC was in your normal set and what level were the mobs you were fighting?

[Danth]

For level 40-45 mobs that value is around 150-200 worn AC.

Note that these values are higher than can readily be reached during the classic period. Later-era Kunark and Velious equipment trickling down throws a lot of impressions out of whack. A era-appropriate ranger wearing banded and maybe a few nicer random pieces like crested spauldors will typically gain from whatever AC he can scrounge up. Today's ranger alt wearing a bunch of Velious hand-me-downs, perhaps not so much.

[Cecily]

Ranger should be the least impacted by negative AC as they are only just above cloth when it comes to how much real ac they get.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of it's a bad idea to make a weak point worse. Like there's certainly a point where piling on more AC to a ranger offers minimal benefits, but I don't think it works the other way around. You're bringing your character closer to the naked baseline, and I don't see any way that's not worse.

[Ephirith]

Appreciate the data point. I'd love it if you'd read that thread and give your thoughts. One conclusion is that there's a mob-specific "squelch point" above which there's minimal hits for max damage, and more AC above that value isn't helpful. For level 40-45 mobs that value is around 150-200 worn AC. How much worn AC was in your normal set and what level were the mobs you were fighting?

I call it weak/minimally meaningful data because this was in Kunark, I was in my high 50's, the sessions ranged from Karnor's basement to Seb, and it was long enough ago that I don't remember what my worn AC was. So mobs ranging from mid 40's to low 50's (krups). Also tanked Emperor Chottal; god bless my poor healer. It was about as much AC as you were capable of getting at the time with droppables/not raid gear... gem encrusted ring, targishins bone mask, idol of the thorned instead of a bow, etc etc.

It resulted in... really an intuition rather than a conclusion at the time that the extra AC wasn't really noticeable but losing the resistances certainly was.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The problem is that there is no point engaging with someone who has a very poor capacity for logic themselves. Your ability to coherently progress from premises to conclusions across multiple variables is pitiful and embarrassing; your "arguments" are rhetoric disguised as reasoning.

It should be a clue for you that almost everyone who engages with you eventually realizes this; in thread after thread, you develop this reputation. It took me two years and being on a different account that didn't have you on ignore to make this mistake again.


Your dishonestly about my posts and your clear bias are the biggest clue here.

People can read the posts you provided and see your analysis of my posts and positions are incorrect.

If you want to take the easy path and use the ad populum falllacy, I can't stop you.

"The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject." - Marcus Aurelius


What they didn't teach you in your undergrad writing class is that appeal to authority isn't a fallacy when the conduct of your argument is generating such a negative consensus about you that it's undermining your ability to effectively engage with the community. It's like a man waving his dick at traffic and chastising all the honking cars for honking instead of using 'logic'.


Facts, math, logic, and in-game evidence trump authority every time. A person can level all classes to 60, and they would still be wrong if they said something factually incorrect.

You are also acting quite poorly with the insults and lies. Perhaps fix yourself before trying to fix others.

[Goregasmic]

Ranger should be the least impacted by negative AC as they are only just above cloth when it comes to how much real ac they get.

So far it seems like rangers take more damage because their lower defense stat leads to taking more hits compared to warriors and knights.

If rangers take more hits that could technically mean AC has the most importance to them since it keeps those extra hits lower on the distribution.

[Ephirith]

So far it seems like rangers take more damage because their lower defense stat leads to taking more hits compared to warriors and knights.

If rangers take more hits that could technically mean AC has the most importance to them since it keeps those extra hits lower on the distribution.

This

EQ has always felt like your defense, dodge, parry, riposte caps account for 80% of your incoming damage and your worn AC the other 20%, which is the real reason why rangers, rogues, even shamans, just get rolled in spite of actually usually having decent worn AC, and monks are incredibly tanky even with worn AC often on the lower side (before Velious)

[bcbrown]

This

EQ has always felt like your defense, dodge, parry, riposte caps account for 80% of your incoming damage and your worn AC the other 20%, which is the real reason why rangers, rogues, even shamans, just get rolled in spite of actually usually having decent worn AC.

Yup, agreed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So far it seems like rangers take more damage because their lower defense stat leads to taking more hits compared to warriors and knights.

If rangers take more hits that could technically mean AC has the most importance to them since it keeps those extra hits lower on the distribution.

You are correct that Rangers take more damage due to their lower defense stat.

Rangers shouldn't have any class-specific penalties for AC, other than possibly a lower AC softcap. In the EQEMU code one possibility for AC softcaps is armor based. So a plate class has the highest AC softcap, a chain class (Ranger) has a lower AC softcap than plate classes, etc.

This means Rangers would be the only hybrid on the chain softcap. Knights would be on the plate softcap.

[bcbrown]

Rangers shouldn't have any class-specific penalties for AC, other than possibly a lower AC softcap. In the EQEMU code one possibility for AC softcaps is armor based. So a plate class has the highest AC softcap, a chain class (Ranger) has a lower AC softcap than plate classes, etc.

This is not true on p99, or at least any softcap that does exist is higher than the squelch point for mobs in the mid-40s. You can see that thread I linked for the details, but the effect of AC was the same across leather, chain, plate classes.

[Naethyn]

Chapter 5: Real AC vs. Displayed AC

While it comes as a shock to many, a person's displayed AC actually means relatively nothing. Displayed AC is affected by many things and in no way has no bearing on a persons Real AC (rAC).

Real AC is calculated using the following formula:

rAC = SoftCap + Shield + [ WornAC - (SoftCap + Shield) ]*OvercapReturn

Overcap Returns (Subject to Change):

Warrior: 0.45
SK/Pal/Monk: 0.33
Rang: 0.17
Silk: 0.02

The rest of you shouldnt be tanking, reason (Silk Overcap Return = 0.02)


Example:

Zyric has a worn AC of 2500, (This can be found using Magelo under Worn AC + Aug AC)

Shadowknight SoftCap = 915 (This changes for each class, consult your CC or respective community to find yours)

Shield AC = 218

Shadowknight OvercapReturn = 0.33

Zyric's rAC = 915 + 218 + [ 2500 - (915 + 218) ]*0.33 = 1584

While Zyric's ingame Displayed AC may be 5000, in reality his rAC is only 1584.


Displayed AC and its relationship to Raw AC:

Displayed AC = Raw AC * 1.575

If you get a 10 Raw AC upgrade, for instance upgrading from a 25AC aug to a 35AC aug, your displayed AC will actually increase by 15.75; not just by 10. **The 1.575 is a standard fudge factor for all classes excluding rogues and silkies**


Yes I realize this is from a later expansion, but if you consider how negative AC works, ranger is almost dead last on this list for how much of a negative they receive.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is not true on p99, or at least any softcap that does exist is higher than the squelch point for mobs in the mid-40s. You can see that thread I linked for the details, but the effect of AC was the same across leather, chain, plate classes.

According to one of the P99 devs, there is a softcap:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1424908&postcount=13


There is a component to your defense rating based on level.

And we use a softcap system, not a hardcap based system.

Warriors get a 45% return above softcap.

Adding a shield increases ur softcap.

Based on new formulas from soe, i am removing the level part from defense rating. And increasing the ac component by 4/3. This helps ac mean more, and you get hit harder naked.

Other changes that are on beta, is iksar ac bonus is moved to be equal to level, 10 min, 35 max. Previously it was level/2. Not 15 like wiki had i guess.

At low levels the softcap is more level based than defense based. I basically doubled transition so at low levels ac means more.

I added a low level raw ac cap of level * 6 + 25.

It looks better now and i can see ac scaling damage up to soft cap, and lesser reductions above softcap.

H


But this post was from 2014, so it is certainly possible something changed over 10 years.

Honestly I don't think anybody has done a proper test on softcaps, especially in the last few years.

[Goregasmic]

The softcap formula gives you like 385 worn at 50. I'm not even sure a BiS ranger reaches that. I don't think this is the issue.

It also seems AC is mob level capped so I guess you'd only see returns for going over softcap on like vulak.

IIRC haynar said he was satisfied with that formula and didn't feel like touching it again but who knows.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The softcap formula gives you like 385 worn at 50. I'm not even sure a BiS ranger reaches that. I don't think this is the issue.

IIRC haynar said he was satisfied with that formula and didn't feel like it touch it again but who knows.

The way I read this post (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1424908&postcount=13) is the "raw ac cap" of (level * 6 + 25) is a hardcap put on lower levels. So a level 1 has a hardcap of 31 worn AC, and a softcap of X.

I know this contradicts his previous statement:


And we use a softcap system, not a hardcap based system.


But I don't think he would use the words "raw ac cap" instead of softcap if he was revealing the softcap formula. He also specified the formula is for low levels.

My guess is they didn't want to divulge the softcap information, but they wanted to give out the low level hardcap information.

EDIT: A warrior can go over 385 worn AC, but this "raw ac cap" is said to be for low levels, so it is probably removed well before level 60.

[Duik]

Are we still talking clickies?

This is one thread i was *actially* interested in.
Never had a decent ranger (or pally/SK for that matter).

There was hopefully gonna be an easily sortable forumy kinda list of ideas/options. Instead, it starts kinda well then the usual shitfuck begins.

There is only a certain number of ways you can say the same thing. (It's one)
So telling us clickies save mana and make a positive effect on the ability to "solo".
It's said. It's done. There is Good points, there is Bad points. Please let the reader decide.
The 20th time the same thing is said makes it sound like those old adverts on late night TV.
Ya gotta keep banging on about it until you find the weak spot in the listeners armor. Then BAM!.
Just like Janine Melnitz says on Ghostbusters.

We Got One!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Are we still talking clickies?

This is one thread i was *actially* interested in.
Never had a decent ranger (or pally/SK for that matter).

There was hopefully gonna be an easily sortable forumy kinda list of ideas/options. Instead, it starts kinda well then the usual shitfuck begins.

There is only a certain number of ways you can say the same thing. (It's one)
So telling us clickies save mana and make a positive effect on the ability to "solo".
It's said. It's done. There is Good points, there is Bad points. Please let the reader decide.
The 20th time the same thing is said makes it sound like those old adverts on late night TV.
Ya gotta keep banging on about it until you find the weak spot in the listeners armor. Then BAM!.
Just like Janine Melnitz says on Ghostbusters.

We Got One!

The same logic would certainly apply to the other posters repeating their same points, bringing in off topic nonsense, posting nothing but insults repeatedly, etc.

Somehow I am always the only person getting called out, even when other people do worse things. People like to claim there is a pattern where it is always my fault, even when the post history shows otherwise.

The more interesting pattern is why other bad behavior is routinely ignored in favor of focusing on me.

[Cecily]

I don't see how Tolan's gloves save mana in a group setting.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't see how Tolan's gloves save mana in a group setting.

I know. That is why you have leveled 3 Rangers to 60, and you still can't maintain your mana in a group. One day you may figure it out. The answers might be in this very thread!

[Cecily]

Feels like you're shaming me for running oom in 84 min intervals and trying to frame it as a skill issue when this isn't a thread about optimizing not leaving your chair as a 300 lb mammal. You've already established your authority on that subject. This is, however, a thread about soloing, and your argument is invalid.

[Goregasmic]

The way I read this post (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1424908&postcount=13) is the "raw ac cap" of (level * 6 + 25) is a hardcap put on lower levels. So a level 1 has a hardcap of 31 worn AC, and a softcap of X.

I know this contradicts his previous statement:



But I don't think he would use the words "raw ac cap" instead of softcap if he was revealing the softcap formula. He also specified the formula is for low levels.

My guess is they didn't want to divulge the softcap information, but they wanted to give out the low level hardcap information.

EDIT: A warrior can go over 385 worn AC, but this "raw ac cap" is said to be for low levels, so it is probably removed well before level 60.

By raw I guess he meant worn.

He stated "lower level" was below 51.

50*6+25=325 @lvl50. Which means at least 385 @60.

He says there's no hardcap so I always assumed that cap was a softcap. I always felt that cap was ridiculously high but if it is a one size fits all type of deal it has to work for warriors too so I guess it makes sense.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Feels like you're shaming me for running oom in 84 min intervals and trying to frame it as a skill issue when this isn't a thread about optimizing not leaving your chair as a 300 lb mammal. You've already established your authority on that subject. This is, however, a thread about soloing, and your argument is invalid.

More insults. I am just pointing out things you have already said:

If you don't have mana recovery, those cheap spells will eventually tank your mana and the recovery is bad. You can maintain a semi-homeostasis longer with more mana.


So I have 2300 mana. Flame lick costs 10. I cast it twice per mob. That's 20 mana. That's 115 mobs. Say 45 seconds a kill. That's 86 mins of uptime, not including passive mana regen. Snaggles ranger with 1600 mana gets 60 mins of uptime only spending mana on flame licks. It's not an issue that needs to be solved with Tolan's gloves. The mana just runs out eventually. It's ok. That's an example of how more mana not run out faster. Thank you for weighing in.


Feel free to correct the record if you are using some strategy other than max mana to maintain your mana past 86 minutes.

When I pointed out clickies were a method of mana recovery, you responded with sarcasm:

Lol. Did you know you can use 4 second cast items and proc weapons as a replacement for near instant cast, low mana spells? Thank you for sage insights as always.

I have plenty of evidence showing clickies work as mana recovery items when applicable. But unfortunately you use the argument from authority fallacy to ignore what I say, instead of countering with your own evidence:


The presumption that you have anything to educate me with regarding a class I've leveled and raided with extensively which you also don't play is, quite frankly, presumptuous, and I don't appreciate it.


People will think you are an authority if you respond with evidence instead of fallacies.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

By raw I guess he meant worn.

He stated "lower level" was below 51.

50*6+25=325 @lvl50. Which means at least 385 @60.

He says there's no hardcap so I always assumed that cap was a softcap. I always felt that cap was ridiculously high but if it is a one size fits all type of deal it has to work for warriors too so I guess it makes sense.

Good catch on the level 51 comment.

Yeah the softcap post is worded a bit loosely. My assuption is the level * 6 + 25 formula isn't the softcap formula, since it gets removed at 51+. I'd be suprised if the softcap was removed entirely 51+, but I haven't done a lot of research on the topic.

[Goregasmic]

Good catch on the level 51 comment.

Yeah the softcap post is worded a bit loosely. My assuption is the level * 6 + 25 formula isn't the softcap formula, since it gets removed at 51+. I'd be suprised if the softcap was removed entirely 51+, but I haven't done a lot of research on the topic.

I haven't read anywhere it gets removed at 51? I'm assuming it just ramps up for a cap higher than 385.

Btw that softcap formula until 50... it says it is until 50 on the "statistics" wiki page but the source linked doesn't confirm this. I tried rereading haynar's posts to find a source for this and haven't found anything. Unless I'm brainfarting I don't think we know what "low level" is.

Also: later in the thread haynar goes on a rant about people saying AC was hardcapped while it wasn't, and didn't understand why people came to that conclusion. The recent parses in the ranger thread seemed to show mob level (atk proxi?) hardcapped player AC returns so I'm not sure what baffled haynar so much as to why players drew that conclusion. Is it possible that the mob hardcap was added later? Because that system probably negates the need for a softcap until you reach raiding

[Duik]

The same logic would certainly apply to the other posters repeating their same points, bringing in off topic nonsense, posting nothing but insults repeatedly, etc.

Somehow I am always the only person getting called out, even when other people do worse things. People like to claim there is a pattern where it is always my fault, even when the post history shows otherwise.

The more interesting pattern is why other bad behavior is routinely ignored in favor of focusing on me.

Who said i was talking about you?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I haven't read anywhere it gets removed at 51? I'm assuming it just ramps up for a cap higher than 385.

Btw that softcap formula until 50... it says it is until 50 on the "statistics" wiki page but the source linked doesn't confirm this. I tried rereading haynar's posts to find a source for this and haven't found anything. Unless I'm brainfarting I don't think we know what "low level" is.

Also: later in the thread haynar goes on a rant about people saying AC was hardcapped while it wasn't, and didn't understand why people came to that conclusion. The recent parses in the ranger thread seemed to show mob level (atk proxi?) hardcapped player AC returns so I'm not sure what baffled haynar so much as to why players drew that conclusion. Is it possible that the mob hardcap was added later? Because that system probably negates the need for a softcap until you reach raiding

Sorry. To be clear, I am not implying I read "removed" specifically anywhere so far.

Haynar said the formula of level * 6 + 25 is for the "low levels'. This implies the formula stops getting used past "low levels". I don't know if this means a second formula takes over, or there is no formula at all past "low levels".

The section where he is talking about hardcaps is in reference to an Eashen fight if I understand correctly. So the level * 6 + 25 formula could still be a hardcap, as it wouldn't apply to an Eashen fight anyway. Everyone would be 60.

The main reason why I think the level * 6 +25 formula is a hardcap (aside from the wording) is because it doesn't make much sense as a softcap at low levels.

It looks like a Warrior can get like 500 worn AC. So that means a level 5 deleveled raid gear warrior would have 55 AC + 445 AC * 0.45 = 255 AC at level 5. That is clearly way too much AC even at level 5. A hardcap at low levels would at least keep the mobs from basically always rolling the lowest hit in this scenario.

But this should be easy enough to test. A level 5 Warrior should see the same result with 55 worn AC and like 200 worn AC.

Who said i was talking about you?

Name all the posters you were talking about! Sounds like it wasn't me then:)

[Duik]

Carly Simon called, she wants her song back.

[Cecily]

Low int and narcissistic is a terrible combo.

[Snaggles]

Where do you pull that MR is that significant? Genuinely curious. Outside seb/chardok I don't really see it and groups rarely do chardok. I find getting slowed while soloing is a better reason to wear MR. Considering all the earring options a ranger has EoE is pretty weak when you don't need the MR.

HGL is 30hp over a bauble, the -15ac seems like a steep price to pay if you're not already oozing AC, which won't happen for a non raid geared ranger.

Am I missing something?

Many of the worst spells in the game are MR based. It doesn’t happen often but when it does, you die.

Snare, root, fear, blind, slow. Gflux if no Levitate in PoHate.

Sure, maybe 255mr won’t resist that dragon fear either…but the question will keep you awake at night.

I’ve never cared at all about AC. That only matters if you take physical damage. And as we have figured out with rangers, it doesn’t really matter then either. I admit, I’m very biased against it…maybe naive but it’s worked well over be years.

Good advice Snaggles, thanks. Looks like a Blue Diamond will keep me covered until I get a Fingerbone.


I still swap mine in for ToV. They are solid!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Low int and narcissistic is a terrible combo.

Rangers do have low INT. It isn't a primary stat for them.


The presumption that you have anything to educate me with regarding a class I've leveled and raided with extensively which you also don't play is, quite frankly, presumptuous, and I don't appreciate it.


This looks like narcissism to me.

I agree with your assessment!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Many of the worst spells in the game are MR based. It doesn’t happen often but when it does, you die.

Snare, root, fear, blind, slow.

Sure, maybe 255mr won’t resist that dragon fear either…but the question will keep you awake at night.

I’ve never cared at all about AC. That only matters if you take physical damage. And as we have figured out with rangers, it doesn’t really matter then either.

Yeah MR is very useful. Some mobs charm too. Getting dragged back to the middle of multiple mobs that recover back to full HP and Mana can be a problem hehe.

[Snaggles]

Yeah MR is very useful. Some mobs charm too. Getting dragged back to the middle of multiple mobs that recover back to full HP and Mana can be a problem hehe.

I don’t care as much on other classes, especially like a knight.

Rangers generally dont take CH chains. Ideally you will have amazing gear and can have a lot stats everywhere. I was a casual raider for 7 years…I just went for weapons and SV’s, lol.

For solo with a ranger nothing is worst than a root or a blind. For raiding, it becomes dragon fear or a root in PoFear. I feel like 200+ SV fire and cold help a lot as well.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don’t care as much on other classes, especially like a knight.

Rangers generally dont take CH chains. Ideally you will have amazing gear and can have a lot stats everywhere. I was a casual raider for 7 years…I just went for weapons and SV’s, lol.

For solo with a ranger nothing is worst than a root or a blind. For raiding, it becomes dragon fear or a root in PoFear. I feel like 200+ SV fire and cold help a lot as well.

Knights do have other options to stop spell casters, like fear and stun.

I focused on resist gear for my Shaman too when raiding. When you don't have a lot of options for preventing spellcasting, you just need to resist it lol.

Rangers could probably blind kite with bio orb reasonably well since they have snare. Woven Bark Earring + Bio Orb + Bow + Tolans Bracers would be free blind kiting.

[Ephirith]

Nah. First of all, INT will be more useful than STA 1-60 and especially with shittier gear. With gear there won't be anything you can't group tank either so STA is basically dead. The extra damage from STR is negligible and UNLESS you are doing some weird solo minmax speed leveling shit it won't matter.

Also, sometimes it's less about achieving BIS and more about living the dream.

Before I say anything else, it's worth acknowledging that starting stats for an ikky SK is a damn near meaningless decision with such little impact.

That said, remember that INT is solely max mana, max mana only provides its benefit in situations where you blow all your mana from 100-0, and 20 int is maybe like an extra spell and a half? Basically only going to come into play when pushing your limits for a difficult fight, giving you another spell or two. The other stats provide their small contributions in that situation as well, in addition to all other situations.

Alternatively,
20STR: Very, very little additional dps. HOWEVER, additional dps every single fight, always, forever, until you're raid geared and raid buffed. Also greater carry capacity for fine steel weps and such if you're an untwinked or poorly geared leveler who can't afford tink bags.

20STA: Key differences from INT- 1. Makes life easier for your healer by providing more of a buffer and more efficient CH. 2. Far more easily capped than INT. 3. You run out of mana you can't cast, run out of HP you die. IMO this is the choice if you're untwinked or solo self found. Makes you a slightly easier tank to heal and increases the chance you will survive a nasty caster pull in mistmoore or guk. A slightly higher chance to survive a nasty pull while leveling is far more impactful than another spell or two in 100-0 situations IMO.

20DEX: Proc your epic and greenmist slightly more, with the presumption that your str and sta will be capped by raid gear.

So, looking at all these options, none of the contributions are huge. But it seems to me that INT provides the smallest benefit. INT is at it's greatest relative weight when you make the assumption you will quickly be 60 and raid geared (which is somewhere very few knights ever get), where str and sta will probably be capped. However, I think dex is a serious contender in this situation, as it probably won't be capped either

SK epic and greenmist are both awesome. (Does dex also affect vampiric embrace/shroud of undeath?) Would you rather proc them a little bit more, always, grouping, raiding, soloing, or cast 1 more spell when blowing your entire mana bar?

Personally I'd only choose INT if my goal for the char were to be quickly uber raid geared and focus on difficult solo artist type fights, but then, I wouldn't be rolling an iksar.

[kjs86z2]

Before I say anything else, it's worth acknowledging that starting stats for an ikky SK is a damn near meaningless decision with such little impact.

That said, remember that INT is solely max mana, max mana only provides its benefit in situations where you blow all your mana from 100-0, and 20 int is maybe like an extra spell and a half? Basically only going to come into play when pushing your limits for a difficult fight, giving you another spell or two. The other stats provide their small contributions in that situation as well, in addition to all other situations.

Alternatively,
20STR: Very, very little additional dps. HOWEVER, additional dps every single fight, always, forever, until you're raid geared and raid buffed. Also greater carry capacity for fine steel weps and such if you're an untwinked or poorly geared leveler who can't afford tink bags.

20STA: Key differences from INT- 1. Makes life easier for your healer by providing more of a buffer and more efficient CH. 2. Far more easily capped than INT. 3. You run out of mana you can't cast, run out of HP you die. IMO this is the choice if you're untwinked or solo self found. Makes you a slightly easier tank to heal and increases the chance you will survive a nasty caster pull in mistmoore or guk. A slightly higher chance to survive a nasty pull while leveling is far more impactful than another spell or two in 100-0 situations IMO.

20DEX: Proc your epic and greenmist slightly more, with the presumption that your str and sta will be capped by raid gear.

So, looking at all these options, none of the contributions are huge. But it seems to me that INT provides the smallest benefit. INT is at it's greatest relative weight when you make the assumption you will quickly be 60 and raid geared (which is somewhere very few knights ever get), where str and sta will probably be capped. However, I think dex is a serious contender in this situation, as it probably won't be capped either

SK epic and greenmist are both awesome. (Does dex also affect vampiric embrace/shroud of undeath?) Would you rather proc them a little bit more, always, grouping, raiding, soloing, or cast 1 more spell when blowing your entire mana bar?

Personally I'd only choose INT if my goal for the char were to be quickly uber raid geared and focus on difficult solo artist type fights, but then, I wouldn't be rolling an iksar.

The choice for 95% of players is STR.

For the sweatiest 5% its not STR, its whatever stat they cooked up in their pixel-sickness-fried brains whats more important.

Guess what? Answer is still STR.

[sammoHung]

Monk is the best solo melee class.

[kjs86z2]

no its max mana ranger because cast more spells more mob more gud

[sammoHung]

Do you guys think that Revanx22, the OP - who was taking a break from levelling their only toon, a level 40 something druid, is gearing up their BiS ranger? Or maybe a BiS knight?


Oh, no.. wait. They wanted a class that you can just pick up and start playing and doesn't need BiS gear to solo.

Which is monk. End of convo. Lock this thread, or else.

[Goregasmic]

The way I read this post (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1424908&postcount=13) is the "raw ac cap" of (level * 6 + 25) is a hardcap put on lower levels. So a level 1 has a hardcap of 31 worn AC, and a softcap of X.

I know this contradicts his previous statement:



But I don't think he would use the words "raw ac cap" instead of softcap if he was revealing the softcap formula. He also specified the formula is for low levels.

My guess is they didn't want to divulge the softcap information, but they wanted to give out the low level hardcap information.

EDIT: A warrior can go over 385 worn AC, but this "raw ac cap" is said to be for low levels, so it is probably removed well before level 60.


WARNING: Wild assumptions based on partial/contradictory claims and evidence.

We know from the sogundordor parses a level 45 mobs will have a 200ac hardcap against them. Bcbrown found 180ac @40.

If that thing is linear, at lower levels it yields:
lvl----cap----softcap
25---120---175
20---100---145
15----80---115
10----60----85
5----40----55
1----20----31

Lvl being player level and cap being mob hardcap. My guess would be "lower level" being something like up to 20 and they removed the hardcap so you could not max out AC until ~25 with bronze armor.

The softcap would be 295ac at lvl45 but the hardcap was parsed at 200. No point in having a softcap if hardcap is lower. I'd guess the hardcap was lifted in kunark for mob 50+ since haynar says there's no hardcap but he's talking to raiders discussing velious raid targets.

That's what would seem to make the most sense so far but we have very little data. I'm currently working on my ranger with hopes of parsing some of that stuff to make sense of all this.

[kjs86z2]

or else!!!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am not sure why Ephirith had to rehash the starting stat discussion on his alt account, but here we go!

===============================
Starting Stat Facts For Melee Classes
===============================

1. Starting stats do not affect your gameplay in a significant way.

2. Starting stats cannot be changed, and people play their characters for years.

3. STR and DEX are increased by 160 each via FoS + Avatar. This means you will be significantly overcapped on both stats, as these two buffs alone can cap a naked character.

4. STA is increased by 50 via Riotous Health. You will eventually cap it via gear as well, albeit slower.

5. WIS/INT will probably never be capped via gear.

6. CHA will probably never be capped via gear.

7. AGI has a penalty if you are under 75.

========
Summary
========

STR and DEX are not long term investments. They can be capped even before 60. Race, class, gear, and play preferences (playing solo vs. grouping) determine how soon you get capped.

STA scales with level, so you do not get the full benefit until 60. Putting your starting stats here can save you a buff slot if you can cap STA without Riotous Health.

INT/WIS scales with level, so you do not get the full benefit until 60. They will probably never be capped at 60 due to melee class itemization. This means you will always benefit from your starting stats placed here.

CHA is used for Divine Intervention, which is typically used in raids. It will probably never be capped at 60 due to melee class itemization. This means you will always benefit from your starting stats placed here.

AGI offers little return past 75. Putting 5 points into AGI on the races that start under 75 (like Ogre) can help with itemization, as you do not rely on gear to get to 75.

For people who claim starting stats matter, remember that players choose to play Gnome Warriors instead of Ogre Warriors. Gnome Warriors have 70 less STR than Ogres. If a player is willing to sacrifice 70 STR via race choice, they will be fine putting their starting stats somewhere other than STR.

While it is true many characters never reach 60, some characters do get dusted off later and end up reaching 60. You should not assume a character will never reach 60, unless they are a mule or a Naggy/Vox raider capped at level 52.

Starting stats cannot be changed, so putting them into stats that will not be capped is the best long term investment. STA is the exception to this, as extra STA can help you reduce a buff slot by not needing Riotous Health to cap STA.

[kjs86z2]

EHRMAGHERD U CAN BE CAPPED STR BEFORE LEVUL 60 DO NOT START STRE!!~!!!!


dweebus maximus

[DeathsSilkyMist]

EHRMAGHERD U CAN BE CAPPED STR BEFORE LEVUL 60 DO NOT START STRE!!~!!!!


dweebus maximus

You are the one being silly here. Racial choice will often cause you to lose a lot of STR. But I don't see you suggesting all Warriors should be Ogres. If a Gnome Warrior is ok with losing 70 STR via race choice, they will be fine if they put their points into STA or CHA. They would still be down 45 STR even after putting starting stats into it.

[kjs86z2]

You are the one being silly here. Racial choice will often cause you to lose a lot of STR. But I don't see you suggesting all Warriors should be Ogres. If a Gnome Warrior is ok with losing 70 STR via race choice, they will be fine if they put their points into STA or CHA. They would still be down 45 STR even after putting starting stats into it.

a gnome war gets self haste big guy, making them BiS especially for this threads context

dont be dense...cmon...i know you can do this

STR is the correct melee starting stat for 95%+ of players

[DeathsSilkyMist]

a gnome war gets self haste big guy

dont be dense...cmon...i know you can do this

STR is the correct starting stat for 95%+ of players

Dark elves do not get haste arms, and they also start at 70 STR. Are you advising all Warriors/SK's to not be Dark Elves? The fashion quest is great.

[kjs86z2]

ah theres the ole DSM we've all come to love

[Goregasmic]

Most people will not have a pocket shaman and much less a primal weapon so unless you know for a fact you're headed that route I wouldn't bank on that at character creation.

But yeah, 25str/dex/sta won't move the needle much either way. For non/casual raiders I'd say max your primary stat and worst case scenario you just get more wiggle room to toy with optimization/resists.

[sammoHung]

End of convo. Lock this thread, or else.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

ah theres the ole DSM we've all come to love

I am pointing out the obvious. My guess is the majority of melee class characters that can play Ogre/Troll are a race other than Troll/Ogre. If you are fine losing somewhere between 27-70 points of STR for fashionquest, you'll be fine putting your starting stats into something other than STR.

[Snaggles]

Do you guys think that Revanx22, the OP - who was taking a break from levelling their only toon, a level 40 something druid, is gearing up their BiS ranger? Or maybe a BiS knight?


Oh, no.. wait. They wanted a class that you can just pick up and start playing and doesn't need BiS gear to solo.

Which is monk. End of convo. Lock this thread, or else.

I highly doubt OP realizes what a mess this has become.

Although, you really shouldn’t generalize monk as the best solo melee. Sure with good gear they can mow though light blues with ease; with insane gear they scale like no other class. Just get a primal and some god weapons, EZ.

Without a fungi, 34-36% haste, epic, and a Tstaff the field evens out. A pally for example has no borked knight melee table at this point in the progression. Access to very cheap weapons (a Reaver on blue is like 5kpp, same for a Narandi Lance at 55). A DW helm is about 400p and heals 110hp/12 seconds at 45.

Also mind you, no monk epic until 50 and that’s if you have a crew to get it. Before that you are rocking a whistler robe again if you can pay for the MQ’s since no 35 monk is venturing into Chardok or KC on a pipe quest.

I am pointing out the obvious. My guess is the majority of melee class characters that can play Ogre/Troll are a race other than Troll/Ogre. If you are fine losing somewhere between 27-70 points of STR for fashionquest, you'll be fine putting your starting stats into something other than STR.

If you are an alt-o-holic the 20% exp penalty for a troll or 15% for ogre are fine print worth noticing. I still don’t think it’s enough for sway a player away from a fatty if they really want to play one. Likewise, the stats won’t lean a player away from a smaller race of their choice.

Keep in mind though for a warrior, gnomes are preshrunk and have access to 40% spell haste arms. Hitting the stamina target of 205 is not difficult.

For SK’s the difference between an Erudite and Troll is roughly 600-700 mana with the same gear. That’s a few drain souls. It’s not ideal as having a ton of Str, stam, refen, and slam, but it means you can stack cheap droppable HP gear which seldom has mana.

Here is my very scruffy SK that’s mostly an EC bin sale. She does ok. I’d even play her more if not locked away in VP for an eternity, lol.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Corinnia

[Jimjam]

Most people will not have a pocket shaman and much less a primal weapon so unless you know for a fact you're headed that route I wouldn't bank on that at character creation.

But yeah, 25str/dex/sta won't move the needle much either way. For non/casual raiders I'd say max your primary stat and worst case scenario you just get more wiggle room to toy with optimization/resists.

I have a highly regarded friend with a 60 shaman. Check mate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Most people will not have a pocket shaman and much less a primal weapon so unless you know for a fact you're headed that route I wouldn't bank on that at character creation.

But yeah, 25str/dex/sta won't move the needle much either way. For non/casual raiders I'd say max your primary stat and worst case scenario you just get more wiggle room to toy with optimization/resists.

The reason why I suggest people think of endgame for their starting stats is because P99 is a game you play for years.

My first main character was my SK. I started my Shaman for fun as an alt to try out the class. I never thought he would be a level 60 character. At the time I also didn't plan on ever doing high end raids like ToV. I was doing PoSky for the most part on my SK.

My Shaman ends up becoming my main, getting to 60 before my SK. I also decide to join Aftermath and do endgame raiding.

People may change their minds on a character later on. That is why I suggest people assume their new characters will be level 60 and raiding, because this may be the case a year from now.

Starting stats do not significantly impact your play, so it's not an expensive gamble to assume your character will be finished eventually.

[sammoHung]

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/giant-padlock-sale-souk-marrakesh-morocco-giant-padlock-sale-marrakesh-souk-111307783.jpg

WARNING:

This thread is now LOCKED. The answer was derived many pages ago, and now the harmonious p99 forums community has devolved into personal attacks over minutae - which is very unlike our very easy-going community. Any attempts to further discourse in this thread will result in a time out in a dark room so you can think about what you've done.

You have been warned.

[kjs86z2]

DSM was definitely not in AM.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM was definitely not in AM.

I was, and I maintained my raid attendance requirements.

https://youtu.be/qYCpsgMYx7A?si=Iqa03v5AMPNcI1SR

My Enchanter is still tagged. That was when I was raiding the most.

[Ripqozko]

DSM was definitely not in AM.

he prob raided as much as he does in fuse.

**RAID ATTENDANCE Deathssilkymist#0**```md
+ Last Week: 0/0 (0%)
+ Last Month: 0/153 (0%)
+ Last 3 Months: 0/912 (0%)
+ Life: 7/2484 (0%)
```

[sammoHung]

kjs86z2, DeathsSilkyMist, Ripqozko:

Please report to the prinicpal's office.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

he prob raided as much as he does in fuse.

**RAID ATTENDANCE Deathssilkymist#0**```md
+ Last Week: 0/0 (0%)
+ Last Month: 0/153 (0%)
+ Last 3 Months: 0/912 (0%)
+ Life: 7/2484 (0%)
```

I know you really want me to play again! I appreciate that you miss me. I don't have as much time to raid as I used to.

[sammoHung]

Ok, buddy - that's it. You have been disrupting this class for too long. DeathsSilkyMist you are in timeout.

No TV, no phone and DEFINITELY no EverQuest until your Dad gets home and we talk about this.

[kjs86z2]

talk to me daddy

[sammoHung]

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71oYMXFY3CL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg

SECURITY WARNING:

This thread has been placed under SUPER lockdown. Because a few didn't heed the earlier warning - this entire post has been securely locked behind this vault door.

If you eat your vegetables and keep quiet for a while, we can discuss re-opening this thread. Until then, just finish your dinner and go straight to your room.

[loramin]

SECURITY WARNING:

This thread has been placed under SUPER lockdown. Because a few didn't heed the earlier warning - this entire post has been securely locked behind this vault door.

If you eat your vegetables and keep quiet for a while, we can discuss re-opening this thread. Until then, just finish your dinner and go straight to your room.

Artist's rendition of sammoHung trying to moderate the P99 forums:

https://media.tenor.com/AqpiiqeW4iEAAAAM/piglet-bailing.gif

[sammoHung]

https://media.tenor.com/WldRk8DfR-QAAAAM/doing-my.gif

[Snaggles]

I bet Sam plays a low dps warmbody monk too.

[kjs86z2]

I bet Sam plays a low dps warmbody monk too.

confirmed

[sammoHung]

Snaggles, principal's office - now!

[sammoHung]

confirmed

Try 0 DPS. I feign death in the wall so that my body is hidden and AFK. Occasionally, I'll get up and request a buff so that I have enchanters and shaman that can vouch for me that I was active.

I have earned tens of thousands of DKP this way. I spent it all on my ranger twink though, so it basically got wasted.

Now - back to the thread being LOCKED. Everyone needs to clear out, immediately!

https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/yellow-tape-showing-text-crime-600nw-2521773821.jpg

[Jimjam]

I earned my dkp not tanking on my warrior so I could spend it on all / all hp / ac items on my ranger, much to the chargrin of magi.

I like you, SA MMO Hung

[kjs86z2]

that was the ole trick on quake / repop day go flop in W tov some wall / corner and just soak

[WarpathEQ]

that was the ole trick on quake / repop day go flop in W tov some wall / corner and just soak

Lots of corners in the picture room that you'll routinely find toes sticking out of.

[Ephirith]

Monk such an OP solo class they can solo large amounts of DKP

[DeathsSilkyMist]

WARNING: Wild assumptions based on partial/contradictory claims and evidence.

We know from the sogundordor parses a level 45 mobs will have a 200ac hardcap against them. Bcbrown found 180ac @40.

If that thing is linear, at lower levels it yields:
lvl----cap----softcap
25---120---175
20---100---145
15----80---115
10----60----85
5----40----55
1----20----31

Lvl being player level and cap being mob hardcap. My guess would be "lower level" being something like up to 20 and they removed the hardcap so you could not max out AC until ~25 with bronze armor.

The softcap would be 295ac at lvl45 but the hardcap was parsed at 200. No point in having a softcap if hardcap is lower. I'd guess the hardcap was lifted in kunark for mob 50+ since haynar says there's no hardcap but he's talking to raiders discussing velious raid targets.

That's what would seem to make the most sense so far but we have very little data. I'm currently working on my ranger with hopes of parsing some of that stuff to make sense of all this.

I made a new thread about the ac hardcap/softcap discussion here. (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444022)

[Ephirith]

I made a new thread about the ac hardcap/softcap discussion here. (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444022)

https://i.imgur.com/EICVY0J.jpeg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/EICVY0J.jpeg

Here is one example of me changing my mind, it is from 2020. (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3162541&postcount=71) Learning new things and changing my mind isn't anything new for me on these forums.

I am genuinely curious. What would change your mind about me?

[kjs86z2]

spergus maximus

[loramin]

https://i.imgur.com/EICVY0J.jpeg

https://gifdb.com/images/high/shaquille-oneal-laughing-spit-take-aj5tw91nkxh4nbe7.gif

Wow, I didn't actually spit my coffee out when I saw this, but ... I came close. Thank you for brightening my morning :D

What made it even funnier was DSM's response (I have him on ignore, but I had to "View Post" this one time just to see what he'd say ... and he didn't disappoint):

Here is one example of me changing my mind, it is from 2020. (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3162541&postcount=71)

Hey guys, I'm totally open-minded. Once, five years ago, someone actually managed to overcome my insane "deny everything that disagrees with what I've said" reflex. Once. Five years ago.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://gifdb.com/images/high/shaquille-oneal-laughing-spit-take-aj5tw91nkxh4nbe7.gif

Wow, I didn't actually spit my coffee out when I saw this, but ... I came close. Thank you for brightening my morning :D

What made it even funnier was DSM's response (I have him on ignore, but I had to "View Post" this one time just to see what he'd say ... and he didn't disappoint):



Hey guys, I'm totally open-minded. Once, five years ago, someone actually managed to overcome my insane "deny everything that disagrees with what I've said" reflex. Once. Five years ago.

See? Loramin still views my posts, and just pretends to have me on ignore. He just can't ignore me.

I have more examples of me changing my mind. I've posted them repeatedly whenever this accusation comes up.

The goal posts simply get moved, so digging up all the examples each time doesn't do anything. Your accusation is no longer "you never change your mind". "Never" implies the number is 0. Now your accusation is "you don't change your mind by an arbitrary amount that can be adjusted at any time".

The funny thing is I bet someone like Loramin has admitted they are wrong or changed their mind less than I have if we looked at the numbers.

[Jimjam]

I mean he admited to changing his mind about not viewing all your posts 👼

[kjs86z2]

https://i.imgur.com/EICVY0J.jpeg

lol 10/10

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I mean he admited to changing his mind about not viewing all your posts ��

Lol very true. I guess he just missed them, or perhaps misread them. Loramin does have a bad habit of misreading posts and assuming things about other posters.

[loramin]

See? Loramin still views my posts, and just pretends to have me on ignore. He just can't ignore me.

I have more examples of me changing my mind. I've posted them repeatedly whenever this accusation comes up.

The goal posts simply get moved. Your accusation is no longer "you never change your mind". "Never" implies the number is 0. Now your accusation is "you don't change your mind by an arbitrary amount that can be adjusted at any time".

The funny thing is I bet someone like Loramin has admitted they are wrong or changed their mind less than I have if we looked at the numbers.

I'll admit I read the one before Ephirith's incredible post, the one after, and this one.

But beyond that, no, I don't read your posts: after years of trying to reason with you, I finally gave up and realized you are inherently unreasonable. Ignoring you was one of the best decisions I've ever made on this forum.

Meanwhile, if you had any sense whatsoever, you'd realize that when the entire forum (or at least all the regulars) consider you to be a meme for obstinancy, compiling a list of the times you've changed your mind ... where that number is easily less than the number of years you've been posting here ... is not going to change anyone else's mind.

There's no list you can possibly make DSM: the only way to change how people see you is to change your behavior.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There's no list you can possibly make DSM: the only way to change how people see you is to change your behavior.

So let's say I provided enough examples of me admitting I was wrong to match your arbitrary number. This would mean your accusation against me is false.

What is next for me to improve my behavior?

And do you have any accountability for your own actions? Or am I somehow forcing you to post off-topic attacks against me in this thread?

[loramin]

So let's say I provided enough examples of me admitting I was wrong to match your arbitrary number. This would mean your accusation against me is false.

As I said:

There's no list you can possibly make DSM: the only way to change how people see you is to change your behavior.

But this will be the last "View Post" I click, because (as everyone else here knows) there's absolutely no point in trying to reason with you or change your mind ...

... the last post, that is, unless someone else makes another great meme ;)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But this will be the last "View Post" I click, because (as everyone else here knows) there's absolutely no point in trying to reason with you or change your mind.

You can't explain how I need to change my behavior.

You are unwilling to entertain the possibility that you are incorrect about me changing my mind.

You didn't answer me about the accountability for your own actions.

Perhaps your should look at your own behavior.

[zelld52]

The way in which DSM pursues the semantic arguments makes me believe he is just a LLM forum bot, designed by a Chinese intelligence expert whose aim is to test how well these bots work in infuriating forum goers online by delving deeper than any actual existing human would on such semantics.

By the way, the forums are so boring now. This post and a few in RnF and Off topic are the only ones cooking. P99 in its death throes?

[Ripqozko]

No worries guys he changed his mind 5 years ago once.

**RAID ATTENDANCE Deathssilkymist#0**```md
+ Last Week: 0/0 (0%)
+ Last Month: 0/153 (0%)
+ Last 3 Months: 0/912 (0%)
+ Life: 7/2484 (0%)
```

[shovelquest]

Why do people put people on ignore then click and read all their comments?

[shovelquest]

lol there is 690 replies in this thread.

Yeah it's DSM that is the one who is weird :rolleyes:

Ya'll are one big big stew, you know that right? One ingredient, is the same as there rest at this point.

https://i.imgur.com/EICVY0J.jpeg

This is fantastic though :)

I like it for the EQ lore of an ogre that doesn't change his mind.

[Ephirith]

The way in which DSM pursues the semantic arguments makes me believe he is just a LLM forum bot, designed by a Chinese intelligence expert whose aim is to test how well these bots work in infuriating forum goers online by delving deeper than any actual existing human would on such semantics.

lol, this was ultimately my conclusion as well:

DSM is an LLM designed by Satan to argue with people and irritate them on vbulletin boards.

By the way, the forums are so boring now. This post and a few in RnF and Off topic are the only ones cooking. P99 in its death throes?

Heat death is the ultimate fate of the universe, unless Rogean decides to Fiat Lux a new server into existence, or pass the project off to someone who will*.

*No implied spoiled child entitlement, I'm immensely grateful for everything the p99/eqemu people have given us, and if they want to put it out to pasture and ride off into the sunset, that's their prerogative

[shovelquest]

Everquest community:

"I am the only one that is right!"

https://i.imgur.com/RScXshK.png

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No worries guys he changed his mind 5 years ago once.

So far I've provided more examples than you have. When was the last time you changed your mind?

Everquest community:

"I am the only one that is right!"

https://i.imgur.com/RScXshK.png

Lol indeed.

[sammoHung]

So far I've provided more examples than you have. When was the last time you changed your mind?


You're on page what, what is this, 66? Asking someone to list the times they've changed their mind, on a thread about why Monk is the best solo class.

By the way, it's monk.

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/GHLH69x4d7dpbhwNqTtXyP.jpg

This post is now under Ancient Egyptian Protection and has been locked away in King Tutankhamen's tomb. Any efforts to resurrect this thread will be met with:

Excessive force from Egyptian Police
A pox upon your house
Eternal damnation to the underworld of Ruat where you will be forced into servitude to the God Osiris


YOU HAVE BEEN TRIPLE WARNED