Best solo melee class?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes, but the more time the target is snared the less recasts are needed. Dooming is a much slower snare percentage which helps with landing more melee hits.

Invoke last a bit over twice the time (and casts 1 second quicker) so you spend less time getting hit or casting fear before the current one breaks.

Dooming/invoke will result in a faster kill than engulfing/fear and a better quality of life. I’d rather find a spot you can use it properly.

Ideally using undead fears as they are even quicker and more efficient but undead stuff tends to be in dungeons or in Kunark. Undead mobs tend to cast and Kunark ones have more hps than most equivalent live mobs. Outside Karnors of course where each fear is viable.

Blood Ember Gauntlets + Boots are typically more efficient than casting Snare/Fear, as SK's are often limited by mana more than HP. This is especially true if you have Fungi Tunic, Epic, Racial Regen, etc. I still use Blood Ember Gauntlets + Boots for fear kiting at 60. (https://youtu.be/mI_IJ_F1GCY?feature=shared)

Getting hit a bit more isn't a big deal when you can just regenerate it while standing via Fungi Tunic, Epic Proc, Racial Regen, etc. The goal is to sit as little as possible, which means trying to spend less mana.

Meditating less means more time killing. Faster kill times do not always equate to more kills per hour, as you need to take recovery time into account as well.

Once you learn how to use short duration fear + engulfing darkness, there isn't really a need to go back to Dooming Darkness + Invoke Fear. I don't have any issues with htting mobs while they are snared via Engulfing Darkness.

You also open up more camp options, as you can fear kite in smaller areas. I fear kite in Howling Stones North for XP on the ramp. (https://youtu.be/WmDvk3udrhI?feature=shared) Your short duration fear is just long enough to where the mob won't run into the corridor most of the time.

[TytosOfEight]

I’ve noticed a lot of people who “play” rangers either don’t understand the class or just aren’t very good at it. It’s kind of cringe. In group content, my ranger consistently kills faster and takes less damage than my monk, even though both are similarly geared (mostly BiS or second BiS). My ranger has a bit more HP, while my monk has higher AC. The real difference? Earthcaller is overpowered.

I prefer my monk for places like Seb Disco because he can flop there, but in almost every other scenario, my ranger is the clear winner. To test this, I recently parsed 30 Geos on both characters, testing the difference of 100 AC. The result? My ranger took less damage overall, thanks to Earthcaller. Even during leveling, my ranger outpaced my monk, despite my monk being better geared. Around level 50, my monk’s progress slowed, but my ranger just kept trucking with Swarmcaller.

Another example: I was recently taking on the back four Guardians in Skyshrine. On my monk, I had to bandage/clicky heal after every fight. I swapped to my ranger, used Harmony to split, and downed all four before even needing to med. No contest.

Sure, a BiS monk with 1600 AC will tank better in raid content, but for group content, if Earthcaller lands, my ranger takes less damage. Oh, and I regularly tank HoT, Fear, Hate, and ToV trash on my ranger. Slap on an Aary shield and a 100 HP weapon, and you’re golden.

TL;DR: Rangers are underrated in group content, especially when played well. Earthcaller/Swarmcaller make them surprisingly tanky and efficient.

[kjs86z2]

"i have a nearly bis melee they're not a bad class"

k

[zelld52]

My ranger has a bit more HP, while my monk has higher AC. The real difference? Earthcaller is overpowered.
.

Wait, so you're telling us a mob that's slowed 50% will do less damage than an unslowed mob?

Dude, you're about to change the game with this insight. All you need to feel powerful as a ranger is a 200kp perma farmed item from Plate of Hate

For real though - how could you possibly compare slowed vs. unslowed fights.

Monks have the best melee damage mitigation in the game. It's not debatable. They have the highest defensive skill caps, they get block - and they get stonestance.

If the same mob was slowed with the same percentage - the similarly geared monk is taking less damage 11 out of 10 times. I duo'd from with my friend on his monk and ranger with similar gear on my shaman. The monk never needed heals - while the ranger needed an occasional heal. Same exact mobs, same exact camp. Ranger got beat up. Monk did not.

Again - not debatable. It's mathematics.


Monk:
Defense 252
Block 225
Riposte 225
Dodge 230

Ranger:
Defense 220
Parry 220
Riposte 185
Dodge 170

[kjs86z2]

Wait, so you're telling us a mob that's slowed 50% will do less damage than an unslowed mob?

Dude, you're about to change the game with this insight. All you need to feel powerful as a ranger is a 200kp perma farmed item from Plate of Hate

For real though - how could you possibly compare slowed vs. unslowed fights.

Monks have the best melee damage mitigation in the game. It's not debatable. They have the highest defensive skill caps, they get block - and they get stonestance.

If the same mob was slowed with the same percentage - the similarly geared monk is taking less damage 11 out of 10 times. I duo'd from with my friend on his monk and ranger with similar gear on my shaman. The monk never needed heals - while the ranger needed an occasional heal. Same exact mobs, same exact camp. Ranger got beat up. Monk did not.

Again - not debatable. It's mathematics.

you aint too smaht is you

[zelld52]

you aint too smaht is you

oh fuck i thought i blocked you lemme fix that. idiot.

[sammoHung]

I’ve noticed a lot of people who “play” rangers either don’t understand the class or just aren’t very good at it. It’s kind of cringe. In group content, my ranger consistently kills faster and takes less damage than my monk, even though both are similarly geared (mostly BiS or second BiS). My ranger has a bit more HP, while my monk has higher AC. The real difference? Earthcaller is overpowered.

I prefer my monk for places like Seb Disco because he can flop there, but in almost every other scenario, my ranger is the clear winner. To test this, I recently parsed 30 Geos on both characters, testing the difference of 100 AC. The result? My ranger took less damage overall, thanks to Earthcaller. Even during leveling, my ranger outpaced my monk, despite my monk being better geared. Around level 50, my monk’s progress slowed, but my ranger just kept trucking with Swarmcaller.

Another example: I was recently taking on the back four Guardians in Skyshrine. On my monk, I had to bandage/clicky heal after every fight. I swapped to my ranger, used Harmony to split, and downed all four before even needing to med. No contest.

Sure, a BiS monk with 1600 AC will tank better in raid content, but for group content, if Earthcaller lands, my ranger takes less damage. Oh, and I regularly tank HoT, Fear, Hate, and ToV trash on my ranger. Slap on an Aary shield and a 100 HP weapon, and you’re golden.

TL;DR: Rangers are underrated in group content, especially when played well. Earthcaller/Swarmcaller make them surprisingly tanky and efficient.

Earthcaller is indeed OP but as someone whos played both a monk and a ranger: the ranger definitely does not tank unslowed mobs better than a monk. Shid, my rogue tanks an unslowed mob better than my ranger does. Even with 1200AC my ranger gets clapped sometimes when I can't land the Earthcaller proc. Difference is the ranger can root and shoot if HP becomes dicey and wait for the chloroplast / fungi tunic regen to get them back up to a reasonable range.

I don't have BiS gear on either but for instance as a joke I was tanking dock mobs in the hole naked with just epic fist equipped on my Monk, and didn't even need heals. Granted I had a group with me DPSing down, but my ranger needed a dedicated healer to tank for the same group. Also when my monk reached 1300 AC something weird happened and fights got way easier. I haven't got that much AC on my ranger, is it the same for them?

[TytosOfEight]

Wait, so you're telling us a mob that's slowed 50% will do less damage than an unslowed mob?

Dude, you're about to change the game with this insight. All you need to feel powerful as a ranger is a 200kp perma farmed item from Plate of Hate

For real though - how could you possibly compare slowed vs. unslowed fights.

Monks have the best melee damage mitigation in the game. It's not debatable. They have the highest defensive skill caps, they get block - and they get stonestance.

If the same mob was slowed with the same percentage - the similarly geared monk is taking less damage 11 out of 10 times. I duo'd from with my friend on his monk and ranger with similar gear on my shaman. The monk never needed heals - while the ranger needed an occasional heal. Same exact mobs, same exact camp. Ranger got beat up. Monk did not.

Again - not debatable. It's mathematics.

I don’t get your logic here. Was the purpose of this thread to compare a class that can slow vs. one that cannot slow? Or, was it about comparing the overall class? Title is best solo class, not best class once someone else has slowed the mob. My ranger can 50% slow mobs and a monk cannot. They can slow with clickies but for not nearly as much or as consistently.

Oh, and BTW, Swarmcaller is like 400 plat and does the same thing: 50% slow.

[zelld52]

I don’t get your logic here. Was the purpose of this thread to compare a class that can slow vs. one that cannot slow? Or, was it about comparing the overall class? Title is best solo class, not best class once someone else has slowed the mob. My ranger can 50% slow mobs and a monk cannot. They can slow with clickies but for not nearly as much or as consistently.

Oh, and BTW, Swarmcaller is like 400 plat and does the same thing: 50% slow.

youre comparing apples to oranges. you made a comment about how rangers take less damage than monks.

[bcbrown]

youre comparing apples to oranges. you made a comment about how rangers take less damage than monks.

He soloed 30 geos on each and found that the ranger took less total damage than the monk. That seems like apples to apples. Easy access to a 50% slow (via swarmcaller) is a big part of the solo ranger's toolkit. I'm sure you understand the difference between taking less damage on a per-swing basis and taking less damage overall when considering spells and procs. It's the former that seems to me to be apples and oranges when soloing.

[zelld52]

He soloed 30 geos on each and found that the ranger took less total damage than the monk. That seems like apples to apples. Easy access to a 50% slow (via swarmcaller) is a big part of the solo ranger's toolkit. I'm sure you understand the difference between taking less damage on a per-swing basis and taking less damage overall when considering spells and procs. It's the former that seems to me to be apples and oranges when soloing.

you his fuckin lawyer or something?

[sammoHung]

I have a question: if rangers do much better than monks why aren't there more rangers? Is feign death just that fun to use? (i mean it is, but)

I always thought relying on weapon procs was not a reliable metric for determining viability though. It's not like rangers get a spell slow, like a shaman for instance.

[zelld52]

I have a question: if rangers do much better than monks why aren't there more rangers? Is feign death just that fun to use? (i mean it is, but)

I always thought relying on weapon procs was not a reliable metric for determining viability though. It's not like rangers get a spell slow, like a shaman for instance.

rangers are not better soloers thank monk. they have worse DPS and they suck at tanking. hope that helps

[sammoHung]

rangers are not better soloers thank monk. they have worse DPS and they suck at tanking. hope that helps

they have legit toolset though like snare, animal fear, root. and with clickies they have self haste 50%, and also two 50% slow procs.

all that being said though: i peronally had a way easier time soloing the same mobs on my monk without a slow proc than i did with my ranger and a slow proc. (velks spiders / lava duct crawlers). also, monk can split pulls in places ranger cant. i soloed 59-60 in howling stones with black pantherskin and an herbalist spade. i dont see a ranger doing that with similar gear level. i guess the real question would be where are the places that ranger CAN solo that monk CANNOT, because i can think of a handful of places that monk CAN solo that ranger CANNOT

[zelld52]

It doesnt matter

people playing this game at this point are either newbs or lame ass theory crafters on their 12th alt wasting their lives trying to get BiS to what end?

yeah if you have BiS gear on your ranger you can solo, but so fuckin what - now youre 60 and you can finally solo geonids in wakening lands, congrats. enjoy your 100p gems, i guess?

[TytosOfEight]

It doesnt matter

people playing this game at this point are either newbs or lame ass theory crafters on their 12th alt wasting their lives trying to get BiS to what end?

yeah if you have BiS gear on your ranger you can solo, but so fuckin what - now youre 60 and you can finally solo geonids in wakening lands, congrats. enjoy your 100p gems, i guess?

Why hang around on a game forum you no longer play, to imagine playing, I guess? And are you seriously questioning why players chase gear in a game that’s literally designed to motivate them to play and seek out gear?

[Ripqozko]

Wait, so you're telling us a mob that's slowed 50% will do less damage than an unslowed mob?

Dude, you're about to change the game with this insight. All you need to feel powerful as a ranger is a 200kp perma farmed item from Plate of Hate

For real though - how could you possibly compare slowed vs. unslowed fights.

Monks have the best melee damage mitigation in the game. It's not debatable. They have the highest defensive skill caps, they get block - and they get stonestance.

If the same mob was slowed with the same percentage - the similarly geared monk is taking less damage 11 out of 10 times. I duo'd from with my friend on his monk and ranger with similar gear on my shaman. The monk never needed heals - while the ranger needed an occasional heal. Same exact mobs, same exact camp. Ranger got beat up. Monk did not.

Again - not debatable. It's mathematics.

to be fair swarmcaller into cek sword>earthcaller. way more dps and same slow

[Snaggles]

I carry an Earthcaller and Swarmcaller and seldom use either outside specific situations. The Meljeldin is a 43% better ratio so I’ve always just assumed consistency is more important than gambling for a slow. It makes sense though the HP loss on average from a slowed mob would be less (lots of early procs which let you swap to the dps weapon). Add in a melee or two and your own drop in DPS is inconsequential.

I dont think a ranger is a “better tank” than a monk but it’s a good example of how rangers are best at surviving when they are “cheating”. Don’t stack AC when you can stack the cards instead.

Kudos to Tytos for doing a 30 Geo parse of each class for sake of science. It doesn’t seem they are biased outside trying to compare two very different approaches. It’s definitely making me think on this a bit more.

[Crede]

Yes, but the more time the target is snared the less recasts are needed. Dooming is a much slower snare percentage which helps with landing more melee hits.

Invoke last a bit over twice the time (and casts 1 second quicker) so you spend less time getting hit or casting fear before the current one breaks.

Dooming/invoke will result in a faster kill than engulfing/fear and a better quality of life. I’d rather find a spot you can use it properly.

Ideally using undead fears as they are even quicker and more efficient but undead stuff tends to be in dungeons or in Kunark. Undead mobs tend to cast and Kunark ones have more hps than most equivalent live mobs. Outside Karnors of course where each fear is viable.

You will go oom extremely fast using dooming/invoke unless you have some potg/c2 bot keeping you going.

It's really a balancing act between mana/hp if you want to go for a couple hours without taking breaks. I would usually lead w/ dooming but then use spook the dead or blood ember boots if no undead mobs around. By the time dooming wore off I had done enough damage to resnare w/ BE gaunts & then finish off w/ spook/boots as needed. Once the mob is around 50ish% engulfing is the way to go for mana saving(and also for splitting). I would also tank as much as possible to lighten the mana load, and once the mob is like 30% you can just keep it perma feared in place & ideally if you have epic you can swap that in to get procs to regen as much hp as possible.

If you had access to soul defiler, then that would drastically change things as most of your mana problems should go away in which case i would probably throw in some more invoke.

[Crede]

I carry an Earthcaller and Swarmcaller and seldom use either outside specific situations. The Meljeldin is a 43% better ratio so I’ve always just assumed consistency is more important than gambling for a slow. It makes sense though the HP loss on average from a slowed mob would be less (lots of early procs which let you swap to the dps weapon). Add in a melee or two and your own drop in DPS is inconsequential.

I dont think a ranger is a “better tank” than a monk but it’s a good example of how rangers are best at surviving when they are “cheating”. Don’t stack AC when you can stack the cards instead.

Kudos to Tytos for doing a 30 Geo parse of each class for sake of science. It doesn’t seem they are biased outside trying to compare two very different approaches. It’s definitely making me think on this a bit more.

Yea early slow procs are nice but I like the idea of embracing the dps would be interesting to compare kills per hour with using Meljeldin 100% of the time vs leading with swarm/earthcaller first and swapping to Meljeldin after the slow proc.

[Goregasmic]

I have a question: if rangers do much better than monks why aren't there more rangers? Is feign death just that fun to use? (i mean it is, but)

I always thought relying on weapon procs was not a reliable metric for determining viability though. It's not like rangers get a spell slow, like a shaman for instance.

Best exp zones are often indoors and monks can split indoors allowing a lot more solo options. It also shines in smaller groups but loses value when splitting is not required. Their gameplay is also a lot more straightforward.

Rangers have a bigger kit but it is more fiddly and situational so very hit or miss. Sow, harmony, snare, track and the likes can be clutch or totally useless if you're doing a single undead camp indoors. Less good exp/money camps outdoors too.

In the end it kind of depends on which perks you want.

And yeah, earthcaller is nice but that epic has a big bottleneck, not sure how much you can consider it as part of the ranger toolkit. You can swarmcaller but it isn't a great weap so if it doesn't early proc you just gimped yourself. You can fix that with DEX but if you want ~180str and decent AC/hp it is hard to get high dex too if you're not BIS.

[Ripqozko]

Best exp zones are often indoors and monks can split indoors allowing a lot more solo options. It also shines in smaller groups but loses value when splitting is not required. Their gameplay is also a lot more straightforward.

Rangers have a bigger kit but it is more fiddly and situational so very hit or miss. Sow, harmony, snare, track and the likes can be clutch or totally useless if you're doing a single undead camp indoors. Less good exp/money camps outdoors too.

In the end it kind of depends on which perks you want.

And yeah, earthcaller is nice but that epic has a big bottleneck, not sure how much you can consider it as part of the ranger toolkit. You can swarmcaller but it isn't a great weap so if it doesn't early proc you just gimped yourself. You can fix that with DEX but if you want ~180str and decent AC/hp it is hard to get high dex too if you're not BIS.

you gimped yourself by using 1h anyways, the best option is get 46 and get a cek sword and pretend 1h doesnt exist.

[Snaggles]

You will go oom extremely fast using dooming/invoke unless you have some potg/c2 bot keeping you going.

It's really a balancing act between mana/hp if you want to go for a couple hours without taking breaks. I would usually lead w/ dooming but then use spook the dead or blood ember boots if no undead mobs around. By the time dooming wore off I had done enough damage to resnare w/ BE gaunts & then finish off w/ spook/boots as needed. Once the mob is around 50ish% engulfing is the way to go for mana saving(and also for splitting). I would also tank as much as possible to lighten the mana load, and once the mob is like 30% you can just keep it perma feared in place & ideally if you have epic you can swap that in to get procs to regen as much hp as possible.

If you had access to soul defiler, then that would drastically change things as most of your mana problems should go away in which case i would probably throw in some more invoke.

Yea I had a Soul Defiler and epic 57+. Before that, I just juggled two spawns to 60 fairly relaxed.


you gimped yourself by using 1h anyways, the best option is get 46 and get a cek sword and pretend 1h doesnt exist.

Really, this is the most efficient path. Less DKP and typically higher numbers, easier jolting, less enrage deaths.

[Crede]

you gimped yourself by using 1h anyways, the best option is get 46 and get a cek sword and pretend 1h doesnt exist.

If you have access to cek sword then imo just get an earthcaller and whatever the bis secondary is to use while you’re trying to slow. Vyemm whip procs prob makes the most sense from a solo perspective but another high stat wep would be good too. Swarmcaller is pretty bad dps

[Ripqozko]

If you have access to cek sword then imo just get an earthcaller and whatever the bis secondary is to use while you’re trying to slow. Vyemm whip procs prob makes the most sense from a solo perspective but another high stat wep would be good too. Swarmcaller is pretty bad dps

you just dont bother slowing while grinding, relying on procs is dumb for just plain exp. save that for like low man trio groups.

edit: you will have long killed something by time slow procs with a cek sword and way faster than you will have with 1h.

[Snaggles]

I bought a Swarmcaller again after getting a Meljeldin and 2h primal. I’m not convinced it’s much of a dps loss over the EC (with the last 2h damage table change) but haven’t bothered doing any extensive testing. One of these days I will.

The Meljeldin is a 43% better ratio than the Swarmcaller. That makes gamble procs less appealing if your melee is the only way the mob dies. I am curious if the offhand rune makes up for the extra big 2h ripostes etc.

[Crede]

I bought a Swarmcaller again after getting a Meljeldin and 2h primal. I’m not convinced it’s much of a dps loss over the EC (with the last 2h damage table change) but haven’t bothered doing any extensive testing. One of these days I will.

The Meljeldin is a 43% better ratio than the Swarmcaller. That makes gamble procs less appealing if your melee is the only way the mob dies. I am curious if the offhand rune makes up for the extra big 2h ripostes etc.

I would hope double epics can out dps swarmcaller. Not to mention way better stats. But would be nice to pair EC with a tuna whip (nice dps proc) or vyemm whip.

[TytosOfEight]

you just dont bother slowing while grinding, relying on procs is dumb for just plain exp. save that for like low man trio groups.

edit: you will have long killed something by time slow procs with a cek sword and way faster than you will have with 1h.

We’re gonna have to agree to disagree on this point. To give you an example, I’m currently farming a guardian robe. I kill 21 named guardians per cycle: most are easy but some are blue or dark green, and many are undercons. An unlucky pull can occasionally include a roaming guard, and some of these are very tough. I’ve tried these cycles without Earthcaller. I’ve tried with Batton/Claw and Cek, and then my typical setup, EC/Silver Whip. I have never not completed a full cycle with EC/Silver Whip, whereas a bad fight has set me back when using Baton/Claw and Cek, and I’ve had miss a few mobs. I can certainly face tank a blue mob, but I’m then out of or low on mana and also down on HP. EC provides a ton of efficiency.

My typical setup is Aary Shield/EC to begin with. I swap out the shield after losing 100hp for whip. After EC proc, I put whip in mainhand and put claw in offhand. After losing more hp, I swap my first golden loop for a Dragon Blood Earring, then I swap the second for the Thuderforged Earring, so I get more dex. Then after more hp loss, I swap my 20 dex bp for my fungi. I feel like you have to min/max like crazy to fully optimise playing a ranger, but it’s fun as hell.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We’re gonna have to agree to disagree on this point. To give you an example, I’m currently farming a guardian robe. I kill 21 named guardians per cycle: most are easy but some are blue or dark green, and many are undercons. An unlucky pull can occasionally include a roaming guard, and some of these are very tough. I’ve tried these cycles without Earthcaller. I’ve tried with Batton/Claw and Cek, and then my typical setup, EC/Silver Whip. I have never not completed a full cycle with EC/Silver Whip, whereas a bad fight has set me back when using Baton/Claw and Cek, and I’ve had miss a few mobs. I can certainly face tank a blue mob, but I’m then out of or low on mana and also down on HP. EC provides a ton of efficiency.

My typical setup is Aary Shield/EC to begin with. I swap out the shield after losing 100hp for whip. After EC proc, I put whip in mainhand and put claw in offhand. After losing more hp, I swap my first golden loop for a Dragon Blood Earring, then I swap the second for the Thuderforged Earring, so I get more dex. Then after more hp loss, I swap my 20 dex bp for my fungi. I feel like you have to min/max like crazy to fully optimise playing a ranger, but it’s fun as hell.

In your specific example this makes sense.

Using my DPS calculator, a level 60 Ranger with 255 STR, 140 ATK, and 91% haste fighting A Gargoyle Guardian (level 37 mob) for Guardian Robe does the following DPS:

1. Earthcaller + Silver Whip of Rage - 84 DPS
2. Meljeldin, Bane of Giants - 100 DPS

Assuming the wiki is correct, the gargoyle has around 2k HP. This means:

1. Earthcaller + Silver Whip of Rage - 24 second kill
2. Meljeldin, Bane of Giants - 20 second kill

Let's assume the mob does 40 DPS unslowed. That would mean the Ranger using Earthcaller + Silver Whip of Rage is taking 160 more damage per kill due to lower DPS. However, one proc of Silver Whip of Rage is a 150 point Rune. This means the whip by itself will negate the extra damage taken due to lower DPS. When you throw in slow procs, you should take less damage overall than the Meljeldin user. This is assuming you have high DEX of course.

The 4 seconds of extra kill time isn't really going to mess up spawn timers, and less damage taken means less downtime to recover HP. At 255 DEX you should be getting 2 procs per minute on your main hand and at least one proc per minute on your offhand. You are probably killing two mobs per minute using the numbers above, so you should be getting either a slow proc or a rune proc per kill on average.

[Ripqozko]

We’re gonna have to agree to disagree on this point. To give you an example, I’m currently farming a guardian robe. I kill 21 named guardians per cycle: most are easy but some are blue or dark green, and many are undercons. An unlucky pull can occasionally include a roaming guard, and some of these are very tough. I’ve tried these cycles without Earthcaller. I’ve tried with Batton/Claw and Cek, and then my typical setup, EC/Silver Whip. I have never not completed a full cycle with EC/Silver Whip, whereas a bad fight has set me back when using Baton/Claw and Cek, and I’ve had miss a few mobs. I can certainly face tank a blue mob, but I’m then out of or low on mana and also down on HP. EC provides a ton of efficiency.

My typical setup is Aary Shield/EC to begin with. I swap out the shield after losing 100hp for whip. After EC proc, I put whip in mainhand and put claw in offhand. After losing more hp, I swap my first golden loop for a Dragon Blood Earring, then I swap the second for the Thuderforged Earring, so I get more dex. Then after more hp loss, I swap my 20 dex bp for my fungi. I feel like you have to min/max like crazy to fully optimise playing a ranger, but it’s fun as hell.

Yea you doing all that swapping and i just walk in and hit with cek sword and kill it and faster. if i have a med a sec more cool. hard pass on whatever all this is.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea you doing all that swapping and i just walk in and hit with cek sword and kill it and faster. if i have a med a sec more cool. hard pass on whatever all this is.

Remember that faster kill times do not always equate to more kills per hour when soloing. A wizard is the easiest example of this. Ice comet is 186 DPS, but you are going to spend a lot of time meditating if all you are doing is spamming Ice Comet.

Kills per hour is a balance of kill speed and recovery time, as I showed in my previous post:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3763397&postcount=279

[Ripqozko]

Remember that faster kill times do not always equate to more kills per hour when soloing. A wizard is the easiest example of this. Ice comet is 186 DPS, but you are going to spend a lot of time meditating if all you are doing is spamming Ice Comet.

Kills per hour is a balance of kill speed and recovery time, as I showed in my previous post:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3763397&postcount=279

cool yall do all that swapping while i just walk up and hit auto attack.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

cool yall do all that swapping while i just walk up and hit auto attack.

My example didn't include any swapping. Just auto attack with Earthcaller + Whip and you should take less damage on average than with Cek Sword, after you include the faster kill times of Cek Sword. This is with the specific example given of a level 37 mob of course.

[Ripqozko]

**RAID ATTENDANCE Deathssilkymist#0**```md
+ Last Week: 0/0 (0%)
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```

[Cecily]

This guy has been on 7 raids. I think we should hear him out.

But seriously, I got a Meljeldin 100% on the advice of Ripqozko here years ago and it's the best weapon. It's super high QoL for 1-click primal 2h -> Meljeldin swap. And the damage is great. I have so many neat 1-handers I permanently bagged after I got this sword.

[Goregasmic]

Tytos still had the receipts for his claims and DSM did the math. If yall would rather just auto attack and don't care that's cool, you don't have to be dicks.

[Cecily]

My typical setup is Aary Shield/EC to begin with. I swap out the shield after losing 100hp for whip. After EC proc, I put whip in mainhand and put claw in offhand. After losing more hp, I swap my first golden loop for a Dragon Blood Earring, then I swap the second for the Thuderforged Earring, so I get more dex. Then after more hp loss, I swap my 20 dex bp for my fungi. I feel like you have to min/max like crazy to fully optimise playing a ranger, but it’s fun as hell.

You know the robe takes like 3,000 kills to get, right? This sounds ridiculously awful. So anyways, I turned on auto attack. Sometimes cast greater healing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Tytos still had the receipts for his claims and DSM did the math. If yall would rather just auto attack and don't care that's cool, you don't have to be dicks.

That's how they act unfortunately. They have been on tons of raids, and still don't seem to understand the basic concept that recovery times play a role in how many kills per hour you can get. One day they might figure it out.

[Crede]

That's how they act unfortunately. They have been on tons of raids, and still don't seem to understand the basic concept that recovery times play a role in how many kills per hour you can get. One day they might figure it out.

They do understand, they are just lazy and would rather afk with the downtime. Same with complaining about swaps which is funny because this game requires probably 99% less apm than any modern game.

Doesn’t make their choices the most optimal route though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

They do understand, they are just lazy and would rather afk with the downtime. Same with complaining about swaps which is funny because this game requires probably 99% less apm than any modern game.

Doesn’t make their choices the most optimal route though.

Lol indeed. I am just responding in kind to their silly attacks against me.

Some people prefer laziniess over optimization. There are some cases where I do this as well.

But auto attacking with EC + Whip isn't more effort than auto atracking with Cek Sword. Swapping to primal once every few minutes is easy either way.

[Snaggles]

I’ve got most the ranger toys besides an essence mace. Sometimes it’s fun to collect just for compulsion sake. There are situations DW might be ideal, and others where it just makes ring wars less boring.

The “to slow or not to slow?” is always on the mind (even if less so for solo fights). If your class can slow proc with a droppable item, and you don’t have the item, you need to get right with the EQ deity of your choosing.

[Cecily]

If Tunare wanted you to slow things, she wouldn't have given you a damage shield.

[Nickelback8469]

In your specific example this makes sense.

Using my DPS calculator, a level 60 Ranger with 255 STR, 140 ATK, and 91% haste fighting A Gargoyle Guardian (level 37 mob) for Guardian Robe does the following DPS:

1. Earthcaller + Silver Whip of Rage - 84 DPS
2. Meljeldin, Bane of Giants - 100 DPS

Assuming the wiki is correct, the gargoyle has around 2k HP. This means:

1. Earthcaller + Silver Whip of Rage - 24 second kill
2. Meljeldin, Bane of Giants - 20 second kill

Let's assume the mob does 40 DPS unslowed. That would mean the Ranger using Earthcaller + Silver Whip of Rage is taking 160 more damage per kill due to lower DPS. However, one proc of Silver Whip of Rage is a 150 point Rune. This means the whip by itself will negate the extra damage taken due to lower DPS. When you throw in slow procs, you should take less damage overall than the Meljeldin user. This is assuming you have high DEX of course.

The 4 seconds of extra kill time isn't really going to mess up spawn timers, and less damage taken means less downtime to recover HP. At 255 DEX you should be getting 2 procs per minute on your main hand and at least one proc per minute on your offhand. You are probably killing two mobs per minute using the numbers above, so you should be getting either a slow proc or a rune proc per kill on average.

Thanks for doing the math on all these, even if some posters don't care about all the details. Never played a Ranger into the high levels myself but it's cool to see the possibilities and hear from the experience of others.

[Jimjam]

I’ve had the vibe it is worth slowing on high level ranger, but not so much on warrior. It’s cool to see everyone else’s thoughts, experiences and maths. Every time I see Rip post DSM’s raid stats it validates DSM’s posts for me - I can see DSM hasn’t wasted time afk auto attacking on raids but actually engaging with solo and low number melee orientated encounters relevant to the conversation

Thanks for supporting DSM’s posts like that RIP!

Edit: forgot to mention something salient to the convo; ranger does benefit from fighting unslowed mobs when they can as it doubles their already reasonable damage shield output!

[Goregasmic]

If Tunare wanted you to slow things, she wouldn't have given you a damage shield.

Counterpoint: if tunare wanted you to get punched in the mouf she wouldn't have given you the worst mitigation of all melees.

[kjs86z2]

for solo mobs id 100% epic slow + vyemm whip to start, proc slow, and swap to cek sword

wurf

[Snaggles]

If stuff is difficult I’ll often gamble for a few swings of my warrior’s ToD but then quickly switch to the Twisted sword if it doesn’t happen. Warriors have the ability to use Evasive while “gambling”, rangers don’t. Outside root jousting (ideally with a Swarmcaller) and maybe tossing a ghealing on occasion.

It is 100% the move to always have a slow weapon. Whether a lucky bump slow or small-man group stuff. I’ve been on a cleric before on ST just messing around and the sham died on the initial Malo. Neither the warrior or ranger had a slow proc weapon and we were far from mana neutral so I had to gate.

[kjs86z2]

thing with procs is whatever psychological term is for when you remember the bad rolls over the good rolls

all those near insta slow procs get deleted from your memory when it takes 50% of the mobs HP before one lands

mobs per hour is the only thing that matters....not what happens in a 10 minute interval on a (un)lucky streak

[sammoHung]

thing with procs is whatever psychological term is for when you remember the bad rolls over the good rolls

all those near insta slow procs get deleted from your memory when it takes 50% of the mobs HP before one lands

mobs per hour is the only thing that matters....not what happens in a 10 minute interval on a (un)lucky streak

if mobs per hour is the metric - monks kill way faster than ranger, right? less downtime because of mend and no need for mana, better tanking, higher DPS weapons, higher offensive skill caps

from my experience with both, killing rats in both PoM and the Hole- monk was able to kill more than the ranger, mostly because of less downtime between fights.

[Crede]

if mobs per hour is the metric - monks kill way faster than ranger, right? less downtime because of mend and no need for mana, better tanking, higher DPS weapons, higher offensive skill caps

from my experience with both, killing rats in both PoM and the Hole- monk was able to kill more than the ranger, mostly because of less downtime between fights.

Monks also get 210 bind wound in the low 50s which is extremely good.

[Crede]

If stuff is difficult I’ll often gamble for a few swings of my warrior’s ToD but then quickly switch to the Twisted sword if it doesn’t happen. Warriors have the ability to use Evasive while “gambling”, rangers don’t. Outside root jousting (ideally with a Swarmcaller) and maybe tossing a ghealing on occasion.

It is 100% the move to always have a slow weapon. Whether a lucky bump slow or small-man group stuff. I’ve been on a cleric before on ST just messing around and the sham died on the initial Malo. Neither the warrior or ranger had a slow proc weapon and we were far from mana neutral so I had to gate.

This.

If you’re not trying to proc a fast slow(which a lot of the times it does happen) you’re gonna just have less kills per hour than someone who skips this. Especially for ranger who so badly need slow.

[Goregasmic]

Monks also get 210 bind wound in the low 50s which is extremely good.

Yeah bind wound 70% + mend on top of not having to deal with mana. Slap a fungi on that bitch and there you go. In the end it is similar results for a lot less work, a lot of people like that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

thing with procs is whatever psychological term is for when you remember the bad rolls over the good rolls

all those near insta slow procs get deleted from your memory when it takes 50% of the mobs HP before one lands

mobs per hour is the only thing that matters....not what happens in a 10 minute interval on a (un)lucky streak

Correct. Mobs per hour is the metric that matters. This is a balance of multiple variables, including DPS and recovery downtime.

Simplest example is Wizards. Wizards get about 14000 mana to play with per hour via Meditate and Harvest at level 60. This assumes no Clarity, Flowing Thought, Epic, etc. 14000 mana translates to roughly 38 Ice Comets per hour, but I'll round to 40.

40 Ice Comet Casts × 1120 Damage = 44,800 damage per hour / 3600 seconds = 12.5 DPS over an hour when you include recovery downtime.

This is why Rend Robe is great on Wizards. Spamming Rend Robe is 56 DPS over an hour due to having zero recovery downtime.

You are dealing 201,600 damage per hour via Rend Robe compared to 44,800 damage per hour via Ice Comet. That is almost 5x the damage, which will translate to more kills per hour.

Obviously Wizards are casting spells other than their damage spells, so you won't be getting the exact numbers above. Those numbers are just the best you can get in those circumstances.

I am not trying to downplay Wizard burst damage. Wizard burst damage is still quite useful, especially the Dragon/Giant Bane spells. But this is discussion is about kills per hour.

I also agree with the psychological aspect of procs, and 2h weapons for that matter. You remember a Crippling Blow that has high damage when using a two handed weapon, while forgetting the times where you have a string of misses and low damage hits.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is obviously a small sample size, but I did a short test.

My 60 SK was fighting a blue con Geo in WL. Each of the entries below is getting the same Geo down to 20% and then FDing. This was to avoid the possibility that other Geos I fight change their level, which could skew the test.

The data below shows how much damage I took before the Geo got to 20%, and how long it took me to get the Geo down to 20%.

Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge
==============================
3119 HP -> 1882 HP - 1 minute 40 seconds
3119 HP -> 1827 HP - 1 minute 25 seconds
3119 HP -> 2017 HP - 1 minute 25 seconds

3631 damage taken over 270 seconds = Geo does 13.4 DPS to me

SK Epic (This includes Epic Proc Heals)
==============================
3077 HP -> 2750 HP - 1 minute 30 seconds
3077 HP -> 2500 HP - 1 minute 55 seconds
3077 HP -> 2230 HP - 2 minute 06 seconds

1751 damage taken over 331 seconds = Geo does 5.3 DPS to me

This is a small example showing how a lower DPS weapon with a good defensive proc can be more effective than a higher DPS weapon with an offensive proc.

SK Epic was 60 seconds slower on kill time, but saved me 1880 HP. In those 60 seconds saved from the Flamberge I could recover 360 HP from Invigorate BP, and 160 HP via Racial Regen + AoB 2x, for a total of 520 HP.

SK Epic saved me an extra 1360 HP even after you consider recovery downtime from the higher DPS weapon. That means I can spend another 2 minutes fighting instead of recovering with SK Epic.

[Snaggles]

Good testing there. Only caveat is that while rolling the SK epic adds 8.3dps (50/tick) so it’s ratio is effectively better than it looks.

I still think it’s one of the best droga farming options since you can keep on plugging along. Similar to how the tstaff proc in some situations will add a ton of mitigation that isn’t fully appreciated.

Parsing fights gives a lot of good info besides who got 1st place.

[sammoHung]

Parsing fights gives a lot of good info besides who got 1st place.

That's how I realized Monk defense was so OP. way more (unslowed) NPC misses on monk than on warrior of similar AC and character level. way more NPC hits landing on ranger with similar AC as monk

[Goregasmic]

That's how I realized Monk defense was so OP. way more (unslowed) NPC misses on monk than on warrior of similar AC and character level. way more NPC hits landing on ranger with similar AC as monk

Yeah AC seem to work the same for everyone, ranger seem to be suffering from lower defense, which makes their avoidance lower.

[Crede]

Yeah AC seem to work the same for everyone, ranger seem to be suffering from lower defense, which makes their avoidance lower.

Monk block skill is also extremely op, way better than parry

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Good testing there. Only caveat is that while rolling the SK epic adds 8.3dps (50/tick) so it’s ratio is effectively better than it looks.

I still think it’s one of the best droga farming options since you can keep on plugging along. Similar to how the tstaff proc in some situations will add a ton of mitigation that isn’t fully appreciated.

Parsing fights gives a lot of good info besides who got 1st place.

Indeed! SK Epic Proc is quite nice. Flamberge is still higher DPS than SK Epic when taking the procs into consideration, but the gap isn't huge. The healing portion of the Epic Proc more than makes up for the slightly lower DPS of SK Epic.

Yeah AC seem to work the same for everyone, ranger seem to be suffering from lower defense, which makes their avoidance lower.

Yeah the lower defense is the issue with Rangers. Using my DPS calculator, a Ranger Mob takes roughly 8% more damage than a Warrior Mob due to the 32 less defense points.

[Goregasmic]

Yeah the lower defense is the issue with Rangers. Using my DPS calculator, a Ranger Mob takes roughly 8% more damage than a Warrior Mob due to the 32 less defense points.

Yeah IIRC the war/knight parses showed about 8% less damage taken.

[Jimjam]

Yeah AC seem to work the same for everyone, ranger seem to be suffering from lower defense, which makes their avoidance lower.

Indeed! SK Epic Proc is quite nice. Flamberge is still higher DPS than SK Epic when taking the procs into consideration, but the gap isn't huge. The healing portion of the Epic Proc more than makes up for the slightly lower DPS of SK Epic.



Yeah the lower defense is the issue with Rangers. Using my DPS calculator, a Ranger Mob takes roughly 8% more damage than a Warrior Mob due to the 32 less defense points.

Nice findings! I wonder, how does the lower defence impact ranger's avoidance specifically compared to monk and warrior?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nice findings! I wonder, how does the lower defence impact ranger's avoidance specifically compared to monk and warrior?

All classes use the same formulas for avoidance. Avoidance is the chance for the mob to miss when melee attacking.

Avoidance uses your Defense Skill and AGI to determine if the mob misses. There aren't any other factors. Special abilities that are activated, like Voiddance, are the exception to this. As far as I know, there are no classes that get a special passive bonus to avoidance.

Dodge/Parry/Block/Riposte only get triggered when you get hit, which is after the avoidance check. They just set the damage you take to 0.

This is why cloth casters get wrecked a lot faster in melee. Having 145 defense is rough. They are taking like 30% more damage than a Warrior according to my DPS calculator due to having 107 less defense skill points at level 60.

As a simple example, I'll show why a level 1 Orc Pawn has trouble hitting a level 60 Warrior.

The avoidance formula is simple:

1. Orc Pawn has 5 Offense Skill and 5 Weapon Skill. Add them together and you have a total value of 10.

2. The 60 Warrior has 252 Defense Skill and 255 AGI. AGI gets reduced to ~48 at 255 AGI. Add 252 and 48 together to get a total value of 300.

The formula rolls a 10 sided dice for the attacker (Orc Pawn), and a 300 sided dice for the defender (Warrior). If the Attacker's roll is higher than the Defender's, it is a hit. So the Warrior would need to roll a 9 or lower on a 300 sided dice to possibly get hit by an orc pawn.

[Snaggles]

That's how I realized Monk defense was so OP. way more (unslowed) NPC misses on monk than on warrior of similar AC and character level. way more NPC hits landing on ranger with similar AC as monk

Yea, putting a figure on incoming/tanking dps is very helpful. It’s also tough to discern say a non-disc warrior from a monk without actual data.

[Crede]

Indeed! SK Epic Proc is quite nice. Flamberge is still higher DPS than SK Epic when taking the procs into consideration, but the gap isn't huge. The healing portion of the Epic Proc more than makes up for the slightly lower DPS of SK Epic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIb859Cg5ZM

I think this video does a good job of showing how good the SK epic is. Even though he failed killing the cliff golem, his gear at the time was very mediocre and probably would have won had he more had slightly better gear or even just a willsapper proc. He did have outside buffs but was only using eyepatch(probably wins with VoG).

And nice comparison to your ancient 2h wep! I would love to see something similar with a vulak axe sk vs epic.

[Goregasmic]

All classes use the same formulas for avoidance. Avoidance is the chance for the mob to miss when melee attacking.

Avoidance uses your Defense Skill and AGI to determine if the mob misses. There aren't any other factors. Special abilities that are activated, like Voiddance, are the exception to this. As far as I know, there are no classes that get a special passive bonus to avoidance.

Dodge/Parry/Block/Riposte only get triggered when you get hit, which is after the avoidance check. They just set the damage you take to 0.

How is dodge/parry/riposte calculated? I couldn't find from a quick search.

From the ranger thread:

Riposte+Parry+Dodge" skill
ranger: 185+220+170=575
sk: 200+205+155=560
warrior: 225+230+175=630

ranger riposte: 6.4%, parry:9.8%, dodge: 8.3%
sk riposte:7.5%, parry:11.7%, dodge:8.5%
warrior riposte:7.2%, parry:15.6%, dodge:10.8%


If it isn't a sample size issue, there is something dragging the ranger's dodge/parry effectiveness down because they have higher skill caps and still score lower than SK.

So if mobs hit rangers more and rangers dodge/parry/riposte less, that's a double whammy before AC is even factored in.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIb859Cg5ZM

I think this video does a good job of showing how good the SK epic is. Even though he failed killing the cliff golem, his gear at the time was very mediocre and probably would have won had he more had slightly better gear or even just a willsapper proc. He did have outside buffs but was only using eyepatch(probably wins with VoG).

And nice comparison to your ancient 2h wep! I would love to see something similar with a vulak axe sk vs epic.

Yeah that's a cool video. Getting a Cliff Golem down to 37% without a Willsapper is pretty nice! I agree with you they probably would have gotten the kill if they had an early Willsapper proc.

I do have a video where I am using my Epic as a 59 SK and Pint is using a level 60 SK with Vulaxe on the two FM giants. I'll see if I can find the logs, but here is the video:

https://youtu.be/CJwu-fFy0dk?si=viZiU66k-UoQTUzo

Here is the video description. I don't remember if this includes the procs or not, I'll need to dig up the logs.


Thank you Pint for joining me in testing the differences between a fully raid geared SK and a level 59 semi raid geared SK to compare the differences in damage taken.

Kongfuzi Level = 60
Kongfuzi HP = 4362
Kongfuzi AC = 1434
Kongfuzi MP = 2246

Bazgek Level = 59
Bazgek HP = 2864
Bazgek AC = 1080
Bazgek MP = 2018

Parse 1: Kongfuzi Damage Taken: 2405 over 133 seconds = 18 DPS
Parse 2: Kongfuzi Damage Taken: 2559 over 108 seconds = 23.7 DPS
Average = 20.85 DPS

Parse 1: Bazgek Damage Taken: 2,892 over 129 seconds = 22.4 DPS
Parse 2: Bazgek Damage Taken: 3,547 over 143 seconds = 24.8 DPS
Average = 23.6 DPS

Kongfuzi's damage was reduced by: ~12%

Due to the small number of parses, this is not a true average, just a guesstimate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How is dodge/parry/riposte calculated? I couldn't find from a quick search.

From the ranger thread:



If it isn't a sample size issue, there is something dragging the ranger's dodge/parry effectiveness down because they have higher skill caps and still score lower than SK.

So if mobs hit rangers more and rangers dodge/parry/riposte less, that's a double whammy before AC is even factored in.

Dodge/Parry/Riposte/Block do not have any class bonuses/penalties as far as I know. They are calculated the same for all classes, so skill is all that matters.

These are the formulas I am using in my DPS calculator:

Block Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 25

Riposte Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 50

Parry Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 45

Dodge Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 45

I do have log data from my SK. For these logs he wasn't level 60. He would have been between 55 and 58 probably, so the level 60 chances would be a bit higher.

74550 hits
6414 dodges
7268 ripostes
9735 parries
97,867 total hits

6414 / 97,867 = 6.5% chance for dodge at ~155 dodge
7268 / 97,867 = 7.5% chance for riposte at ~200 Riposte
9735 / 97,867 = 10% chance for parry at ~205 Parry

The checks occur in sequential order. That is why you see this pattern where Parry occurs more than other skills, even though the chance of parry occuring is the same as dodge.

Block/Parry get checked first. This means that Dodge and Riposte get checked less, because a successful Parry will stop the dodge and riposte checks from happening at all.

[sammoHung]

6414 / 97,867 = 6.5% chance for dodge at ~155 dodge
7268 / 97,867 = 7.5% chance for riposte at ~200 Riposte
9735 / 97,867 = 10% chance for parry at ~205 Parry

The checks occur in sequential order. That is why you see this pattern where Parry occurs more than other skills, even though the chance of parry occuring is the same as dodge.

Block/Parry get checked first. This means that Dodge and Riposte get checked less, because a successful Parry will stop the dodge and riposte checks from happening at all.

I'm gonna comb through my monk logs later and post results - I estimate Block being a bit more effective than Parry, because of higher skill cap

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm gonna comb through my monk logs later and post results - I estimate Block being a bit more effective than Parry, because of higher skill cap

Yes, block should be better than Parry because it has a smaller denominator:

Block Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 25

Parry Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 45

I got these formulas from EQEMU, so it is possible the denominators are different on P99. That may be why Parry has a 10% chance in my logs rather than the predicted 6.7% chance at 205 skill.

Even if the denominator is different on P99, I'd imagine Block having a smaller denominator than Parry would still carry over. Parry using a denominator of 30 instead of 45 would be a 10% chance to parry. So Block might be more like 16 instead of 25 if the ratios are the same.

[Jimjam]

Yes, block should be better than Parry because it has a smaller denominator:

Block Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 25

Parry Chance = (Skill Value + 100) / 45

I got these formulas from EQEMU, so it is possible the denominators are different on P99. That may be why Parry has a 10% chance in my logs rather than the predicted 6.7% chance at 205 skill.

Even if the denominator is different on P99, I'd imagine Block having a smaller denominator than Parry would still carry over. Parry using a denominator of 30 instead of 45 would be a 10% chance to parry. So Block might be more like 16 instead of 25 if the ratios are the same.
My friend used to be convinced that parry and stuff used different formulae pre PoP (or maybe pre-luclin? I didn't pay enough attention to her!) and should be much more effective for the same skill level in trilogy era than titanium. Never seen anything to substantiate this though!

[Goregasmic]

The checks occur in sequential order. That is why you see this pattern where Parry occurs more than other skills, even though the chance of parry occuring is the same as dodge.

Block/Parry get checked first. This means that Dodge and Riposte get checked less, because a successful Parry will stop the dodge and riposte checks from happening at all.

Yeah but they happen in sequential order for both SK and ranger so ranger shouldn't score lower than SK if skill is higher, especially since nothing sets them appart in the formula.

Sample issues I guess.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah but they happen in sequential order for both SK and ranger so ranger shouldn't score lower than SK if skill is higher, especially since nothing sets them appart in the formula.

Sample issues I guess.

Do you know what the sample size was for the data you provided?

I haven't done extensive research on Dodge/Parry/Riposte/Block. I'd be curious to see if other Rangers have posted their data, so we can compare data sets.

[Crede]

BUGEN (56 Monk) vs YENDOR (59 Ranger)
Howling Stones North/West wing mobs

Bugen

HP: ~3200

AC: ~1020

Total damage: 84,756

Avg hit: 63

Swings: 2692

Defended: 455 (16.9%)

Hit: 1338 (49.7%)

Missed: 899 (33.4%)

Accuracy: 59.8%

Dodged: 93 (4.6%)

Parried: 0 (0%)

Blocked: 274 (10.2%)

Riposted: 88 (3.6%)

Absorbed: 0 (0%)

Avg Dmg/Swing: 31.5

Yendor

HP: ~3600

AC: ~920

Total damage: 45,839

Avg hit: 61

Swings: 1127

Defended: 108 (9.6%)

Hit: 750 (66.5%)

Missed: 269 (23.9%)

Accuracy: 73.6%

Dodged: 45 (4.2%)

Parried: 34 (3%)

Blocked: 0 (0%)

Riposted: 29 (2.7%)

Absorbed: 0 (0%)

Avg Dmg/Swing: 40.7

BUGEN (54 Monk) vs NLAAR (56 SK) vs MYUHARIN (56 SK)
Hole mobs, mostly rats from the jail area

Bugen

HP: ~3000

AC: ~1000

Total damage: 62,415

Avg hit: 64

Swings: 1838

Defended: 276 (15%)

Hit: 968 (52.7%)

Missed: 594 (32.3%)

Accuracy: 62%

Dodged: 44 (2.4%)

Parried: 0 (0%)

Blocked: 176 (9.6%)

Riposted: 49 (2.7%)

Absorbed: 7 (0.4%)

Avg Dmg/Swing: 33.9

Nlaar

HP: ~3500

AC: ~1000

Total damage: 72,411

Avg hit: 65

Swings: 1736

Defended: 148 (8.5%)

Hit: 1099 (63.3%)

Missed: 489 (28.2%)

Accuracy: 69.2%

Dodged: 19 (1.1%)

Parried: 55 (3.3%)

Blocked: 43 (2.6%)

Riposted: 43 (2.6%)

Absorbed: 0 (0%)

Avg Dmg/Swing: 41.7

Myuharin

HP: ??

AC: ??

Total damage: 14,115

Avg hit: 65

Swings: 359

Defended: 39 (10.9%)

Hit: 214 (59.6%)

Missed: 106 (29.5%)

Accuracy: 66.9%

Dodged: 12 (3.3%)

Parried: 12 (3.3%)

Blocked: 0 (0%)

Riposted: 14 (4%)

Absorbed: 1 (0.3%)

Avg Dmg/Swing: 39.3

[Crede]

sorry for the shitty upload but yea that was an old parse of block out performing parry

[Cecily]

Is that ancient blue parses? There's been defense changes for the shitty classes since then. Not rangers though. Rangers are terrible tanks because 200 defense. Same defense as a cleric, but with worse armor.

[bcbrown]

Rangers are terrible tanks because 200 defense.

I think it really is that simple.

[Cecily]

I think we need to dig up a few years worth of parses and run them through dubious calculators to really be able to say anything definitive.

[Snaggles]

30 kills with my notes. No intent to claim something supreme (it’s not raid parsing and that’s different). I carry the junk constantly and probably won’t change my method regardless.

If I thought the Geo might be getting buffed by a shaman, I pulled with Nullify Magic, then snared, then if they turned to run I would circle to face them. I wasn’t counting baton procs, or ripostes. Most the time slow would land 70-80% health. One time was around 20%. I didn’t fight shaman mobs. I didn’t take note of green vs blue cons.

Meljeldin 100%, no DS, no Avatar, no Call of Fire etc
Greater Wolf Form, SoN, CoTP, one AoB, Storm Strength
239 STR, 1353 Attack Power, 91% Haste (Dragon gloves + Sky cloak)

Total Dmg—-Time—-DPS—-Dmg to PC
7964—-106—-75—2456
7302——79—-92—1891
7544——91—-82—-2181
7563——89—-85—-1700
7195——70—-102—1138
7744——83—-93—-1802
7853——99—-79—-2548
7967——86—-92—-1835
7409——73—101—-2759
7544——96—-78——1158
76085—873—87—-19468

Baton of Flame/Claw of Lightning 100%, no DS, no Avatar, no Call of Fire etc
Greater Wolf Form, SoN, CoTP, one AoB, Storm Strength
237 STR, 1352 Attack Power, 91% Haste (Dragon gloves + Sky cloak)

Total Dmg—-Time—-DPS—-Dmg to PC
7778—-84—92—-2159
7887—-82—96—-1251
7358—-89—84—-2280
7491—-91—82—-1700
7692—-85—90—-1919
7933—-93—85—-2535
7892—-89—88—-2886
7091—-78—90—-1364
7548—-83—90—-1837
75763—852–88—19451

Earthcaller & Silver Whip of Rage /Silver Whip of Rage & Claw of Lightning on slow
No DS, no Avatar, no Call of Fire etc
Greater Wolf Form, SoN, CoTP, one AoB, Storm Strength
244 initial STR*, 1357 Attack Power, 91% Haste (Dragon gloves + Sky cloak)
*I forgot to get the swapped stats

Total Dmg—-Time—-DPS—-Dmg to PC
6923—-96—-72—-1223
7232—-94—-76—-548
7276—-96—-75—-2026
7184—-92—-78—-836
7200—-91—-79—-1053
7547—-90—-83—-1330
7074—-114—62—-993
7903—-120—65—-1618
7165—-97—-73—-1196
72722—995—-73—-11994


Conclusions:
I’m running low on word count here I expect. I’ll let you think on this stuff.
The HP of the third group is lower…I expect since the Earthcaller dot is 20/tick and doesn’t get parsed. Roughly 600 seconds (60s x10 geos) is 100 ticks x 20 = 2000 dot health.

I didnt use avatar because I didn’t want to worry about upkeep and if dropping then skewing the figures (my slow setup was like 148 DEX). I have a Swarmcaller in my bag but ran out of patience. Another time!

PS: sorry for the formatting

[Goregasmic]

Do you know what the sample size was for the data you provided?

I haven't done extensive research on Dodge/Parry/Riposte/Block. I'd be curious to see if other Rangers have posted their data, so we can compare data sets.

Couple hundreds to a couple thousands,not entirely clear.

[bcbrown]

I think we need to dig up a few years worth of parses and run them through dubious calculators to really be able to say anything definitive.

It can be fun to do that sort of thing, as long as you approach the results with the appropriate humility and a critical eye. The discussion on when to use ranger slows a few pages ago prompted me to work out a little calculator for how much damage to expect to be prevented when wielding a proc weapon. E.g. in the Guardian example I'd expect it to save about 140-180 health/fight on average.

My rule of thumb has always been that for any solo fight against a blue to start with swarmcaller until the mob is at ~80% hp and then switch to dps weapons. Of course this is heavily influenced by what weapons you have, and I'm still using Swarmcaller vs Fellspine's Tail/Swiftwind.

Anyway, if I finish work on this little calculator I think I'll be able to tell whether 80% is the right cutoff point, or what it should be instead. As long as you don't treat the output as gospel that sort of project can be helpful.

Edit: cool shit Snaggles, thanks for posting some data!

[Snaggles]

Oh…and I only had like 3100 self buffed ups with Dain hammer and Skin like Nature (forgot to mention that). Some of those fights were clinchers and I was hovering my mystic cloak to avoid hunting a Rez…never needed it though.

This gear with the Tracker helm, and I swapped out the Mantle for my Sky shoulders. It’s a work in progress…focusing on armor finally.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Blerv

[Cecily]

What's the total time on your anti-dps setup, Snaggles? Note Cek sword and baton/claw perform the same. Nice fucking MR btw. That might beat Cecily's. Yeah it does. Jesus christ.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Green:Cecily
https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Green:Zalea

[Snaggles]

What's the total time on your anti-dps setup, Snaggles? Note Cek sword and baton/claw perform the same. Nice fucking MR btw. That might beat Cecily's. Yeah it does. Jesus christ.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Green:Cecily
https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Green:Zalea

Ugh sorry, typo. 995 seconds.

Haha thanks btw!

[Cecily]

Subjectively, which combo felt best / lowest stress? Really only metric that matters for soloing. Primal bow pulls for avatar + Meljeldin, Bane of the Giants feels best for me, but EC + Whip is stupid good sustain.

[Snaggles]

Subjectively, which combo felt best / lowest stress? Really only metric that matters for soloing. Primal bow pulls for avatar + Meljeldin, Bane of the Giants feels best for me, but EC + Whip is stupid good sustain.

That’s a good question. The brain is tricky because I was probably the most comfortable with the Meljeldin just logically knowing I’d get bigger ripostes and get hit by less. I’m used to a lumpy 2h and for most stuff it’s my go-to. The DW dps combo was concerning as I was hoping of 100dd procs, despite being rather close (statistically).

The EC and Whip initially was freaky knowing it was a bit of a gimmick. I didn’t factor how many times an offhand weapon will still proc, or that when running id preproc a rune for the next fight. The whip in the MH on a slowed Geo the ranger felt more like a real melee. One fight I pulled two and rooted one, then killed then back to back. Maybe two greens but with an early slow proc on the first I wasn’t worried at all.

[Ripqozko]

That’s a good question. The brain is tricky because I was probably the most comfortable with the Meljeldin just logically knowing I’d get bigger ripostes and get hit by less. I’m used to a lumpy 2h and for most stuff it’s my go-to. The DW dps combo was concerning as I was hoping of 100dd procs, despite being rather close (statistically).

The EC and Whip initially was freaky knowing it was a bit of a gimmick. I didn’t factor how many times an offhand weapon will still proc, or that when running id preproc a rune for the next fight. The whip in the MH on a slowed Geo the ranger felt more like a real melee. One fight I pulled two and rooted one, then killed then back to back. Maybe two greens but with an early slow proc on the first I wasn’t worried at all.

so ya parsed about same 1h and 2h, but 1h would reposite more. the gimick of earthcaller and silver whip did half the dmg roughly which is terrible, id rather sit/heal/have c2 and chill than take half the time getting beat with ranger defense. sure slow off the rip is nice but we know how proccing goes. to each their own i aint gonna rely on procs tho.

[Snaggles]

so ya parsed about same 1h and 2h, but 1h would reposite more. the gimick of earthcaller and silver whip did half the dmg roughly which is terrible, id rather sit/heal/have c2 and chill than take half the time getting beat with ranger defense. sure slow off the rip is nice but we know how proccing goes. to each their own i aint gonna rely on procs tho.

Oh I get that too. I don’t like gambling but should I have to tank stuff it’s a solid answer. Besides just logging in a tank of course.

[Ripqozko]

Oh I get that too. I don’t like gambling but should I have to tank stuff it’s a solid answer. Besides just logging in a tank of course.

so is killing it twice as fast so you aint getting beat on. more dps=less dmg you take. people here dont seem to get that. can slow weapons be optimal? if you have god rng sure. can they be useful in small grouping where you are the tank and the mobs are harder than you can solo ie: juggs? sure. will i use it just grinding blue con mobs? no.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

30 kills with my notes. No intent to claim something supreme (it’s not raid parsing and that’s different). I carry the junk constantly and probably won’t change my method regardless.


Thanks for the data, this is great! It lines up with my DPS calculator as well. It is very cool to see the 73 DPS from EC + Whip is 84% of the DPS of Meljeldin's 87 DPS. This is the same percentage difference as the Gargoyle calculation I did earlier:


Using my DPS calculator, a level 60 Ranger with 255 STR, 140 ATK, and 91% haste fighting A Gargoyle Guardian (level 37 mob) for Guardian Robe does the following DPS:

1. Earthcaller + Silver Whip of Rage - 84 DPS
2. Meljeldin, Bane of Giants - 100 DPS


My DPS calculator shows 71 DPS for EC + Whip, 89 DPS for Baton + Claw, and 85 DPS for Meljeldin against a 44 Warrior, so those numbers line up well too.

As we suspected, you also took significantly less damage with EC + Whip compared to Meljeldin.

You killed 9 Geos in 777 seconds with Meljeldin, and took 18310 damage. I subtracted 1 kill so we would have the same number of kills for both weapons.

You killed 9 Geos in 995 seconds with EC + Whip, and took 11994 damage.

These are the averages:

1. Meljeldin - 86 seconds per kill, and you take 2034 damage per kill.

2. EC + Whip - 110 seconds per kill, and you take 1333 damage per kill.

This means the Meljeldin user gets 24 extra seconds of recovery downtime per kill. I do not believe you can recover the difference of 701 HP in 24 seconds. If someone thinks you can, let us know. I don't know the most optimal recovery setup for solo Rangers.

I'll give an example recovery plan. You will recover 80 mana in 4 med ticks, so you could Greater Healing every other kill. Fungi + Chloroplast + Sitting is 32 HP/Tick, so you could recover like 128 HP (Regen) + 135 HP (Half of Greater Healing) = 263 HP per 24 seconds. EC + Whip is still +438 HP per kill when you include the extra recovery time Meljeldin gives you.

This means EC + Whip should get you more Geo kills per hour than Meljeldin with this setup due to how much HP recovery time you save.

[Crede]

Thanks for the data, this is great! It lines up with my DPS calculator as well. It is very cool to see the 73 DPS from EC + Whip is 84% of the DPS of Meljeldin's 87 DPS. This is the same percentage difference as the Gargoyle calculation I did earlier:



My DPS calculator shows 71 DPS for EC + Whip, 89 DPS for Baton + Claw, and 85 DPS for Meljeldin against a 44 Warrior, so those numbers line up well too.

As we suspected, you also took significantly less damage with EC + Whip compared to Meljeldin.

You killed 9 Geos in 777 seconds with Meljeldin, and took 18310 damage. I subtracted 1 kill so we would have the same number of kills for both weapons.

You killed 9 Geos in 995 seconds with EC + Whip, and took 11994 damage.

These are the averages:

1. Meljeldin - 86 seconds per kill, and you take 2034 damage per kill.

2. EC + Whip - 110 seconds per kill, and you take 1333 damage per kill.

This means the Meljeldin user gets 24 extra seconds of recovery downtime per kill. I do not believe you can recover the difference of 701 HP in 24 seconds. If someone thinks you can, let us know. I don't know the most optimal recovery setup for solo Rangers.

I'll give an example recovery plan. You will recover 80 mana in 4 med ticks, so you could Greater Healing every other kill. Fungi + Chloroplast + Sitting is 32 HP/Tick, so you could recover like 128 HP (Regen) + 135 HP (Half of Greater Healing) = 263 HP per 24 seconds. EC + Whip is still +438 HP per kill when you include the extra recovery time Meljeldin gives you.

This means EC + Whip should get you more Geo kills per hour than Meljeldin with this setup due to how much HP recovery time you save.

1H setup becomes even more favorable if you swap the EC to a better weapon immediately after proc like Baton. Would be nice to simulate some numbers for that as well.

[Ripqozko]

Thanks for the data, this is great! It lines up with my DPS calculator as well. It is very cool to see the 73 DPS from EC + Whip is 84% of the DPS of Meljeldin's 87 DPS. This is the same percentage difference as the Gargoyle calculation I did earlier:



My DPS calculator shows 71 DPS for EC + Whip, 89 DPS for Baton + Claw, and 85 DPS for Meljeldin against a 44 Warrior, so those numbers line up well too.

As we suspected, you also took significantly less damage with EC + Whip compared to Meljeldin.

You killed 9 Geos in 777 seconds with Meljeldin, and took 18310 damage. I subtracted 1 kill so we would have the same number of kills for both weapons.

You killed 9 Geos in 995 seconds with EC + Whip, and took 11994 damage.

These are the averages:

1. Meljeldin - 86 seconds per kill, and you take 2034 damage per kill.

2. EC + Whip - 110 seconds per kill, and you take 1333 damage per kill.

This means the Meljeldin user gets 24 extra seconds of recovery downtime per kill. I do not believe you can recover the difference of 701 HP in 24 seconds. If someone thinks you can, let us know. I don't know the most optimal recovery setup for solo Rangers.

I'll give an example recovery plan. You will recover 80 mana in 4 med ticks, so you could Greater Healing every other kill. Fungi + Chloroplast + Sitting is 32 HP/Tick, so you could recover like 128 HP (Regen) + 135 HP (Half of Greater Healing) = 263 HP per 24 seconds. EC + Whip is still +438 HP per kill when you include the extra recovery time Meljeldin gives you.

This means EC + Whip should get you more Geo kills per hour than Meljeldin with this setup due to how much HP recovery time you save.

700 dmg is 3 heals, not that big of a deal

[DeathsSilkyMist]

700 dmg is 3 heals, not that big of a deal

It becomes a big deal over time. If your Ranger has 4200 Max HP, that is 1 full HP bar you need to recover every 6 kills using Meljeldin compared to EC + Whip.

[Ripqozko]

It becomes a big deal over time. If your Ranger has 4200 Max HP, that is 1 full HP bar you need to recover every 6 kills using Meljeldin compared to EC + Whip.

Lmk when ya stop using formula and start actually doing what ya theory craft. Why not roll a ranger?

[Snaggles]

so is killing it twice as fast so you aint getting beat on. more dps=less dmg you take. people here dont seem to get that. can slow weapons be optimal? if you have god rng sure. can they be useful in small grouping where you are the tank and the mobs are harder than you can solo ie: juggs? sure. will i use it just grinding blue con mobs? no.

I was very intentionally not trying to put my thumb on the scale. The testing was mostly out of curiosity as I expected more dps = better. Regardless, in this set of RNG I took quite a bit less damage for the same mobs, while killing much slower.

There are many situations where it wouldn’t be optimal. Toss a healer over, or better haste/attack buffs, maybe even Avatar. That said, an extra hundred dec would likely increase my chances of a slow proc…and I had a ton in the 70-80% range with plenty of health left to chew though.

In hindsight a swap to the Cek after a slow would probably good too. After 30 geos I just didn’t want to keep the tests going.

[Cecily]

I think you handicapped yourself hard by not using avatar, especially with the gimmicks. It's huge for Cek sword as well, but you had wolf form for 40/100 atk. I found that archery with a 2 hander especially maintains avatar for like 80% uptime with just pulls without having to force a proc. Very good for goblin hunting in Droga, which is the only use case for a ranger as far I can tell.

Personally I would have swapped to Baton after EC proc and left the whip in offhand to minimize click fatigue. It's not optimal for rune procs but the wangjangling you were doing would drive me insane over an extended hunt.

[Snaggles]

Thanks for the data, this is great! It lines up with my DPS calculator as well. It is very cool to see the 73 DPS from EC + Whip is 84% of the DPS of Meljeldin's 87 DPS. This is the same percentage difference as the Gargoyle calculation I did earlier:



My DPS calculator shows 71 DPS for EC + Whip, 89 DPS for Baton + Claw, and 85 DPS for Meljeldin against a 44 Warrior, so those numbers line up well too.

As we suspected, you also took significantly less damage with EC + Whip compared to Meljeldin.

You killed 9 Geos in 777 seconds with Meljeldin, and took 18310 damage. I subtracted 1 kill so we would have the same number of kills for both weapons.

You killed 9 Geos in 995 seconds with EC + Whip, and took 11994 damage.

These are the averages:

1. Meljeldin - 86 seconds per kill, and you take 2034 damage per kill.

2. EC + Whip - 110 seconds per kill, and you take 1333 damage per kill.

This means the Meljeldin user gets 24 extra seconds of recovery downtime per kill. I do not believe you can recover the difference of 701 HP in 24 seconds. If someone thinks you can, let us know. I don't know the most optimal recovery setup for solo Rangers.

I'll give an example recovery plan. You will recover 80 mana in 4 med ticks, so you could Greater Healing every other kill. Fungi + Chloroplast + Sitting is 32 HP/Tick, so you could recover like 128 HP (Regen) + 135 HP (Half of Greater Healing) = 263 HP per 24 seconds. EC + Whip is still +438 HP per kill when you include the extra recovery time Meljeldin gives you.

This means EC + Whip should get you more Geo kills per hour than Meljeldin with this setup due to how much HP recovery time you save.

Thanks for digging into it :).

I feel like it could have gone very poorly as well with bad RNG on procs. However, it would have to go abysmal to take more damage per fight (at least based on this small sample). With more Dex, in theory my proc rate would almost double. The last fight I had on the EC/Whip example I didn’t get a slow until around 20%, yet the rune whip must have been helping more than I realized.

Personally the two pieces of info I’m going to think about, are:

1. Just because you don’t get a one-round slow doesn’t mean you shouldn’t hold out a bit longer if the payoff is a 50% reduction.

2. The Whip is not an outstanding weapon so far as BiS goes. It’s not a bad offhand though if you are taking any damage or need the MR. I don’t think the claw would make up for the hps it was offsetting. Claw for the parse; whip for the QoL.

Note: this took a lot longer than the parse time. I expect most melee classes could move much quicker. I tended to end fights at like 10-60% health, even on the top end that isn’t “great” :) .

I mixed greater healing and sat with the fungi and chloro on. I also refreshed buffs more than needed to make sure they didn’t drop.

[Snaggles]

I think you handicapped yourself hard by not using avatar, especially with the gimmicks. It's huge for Cek sword as well, but you had wolf form for 40/100 atk. I found that archery with a 2 hander especially maintains avatar for like 80% uptime with just pulls without having to force a proc. Very good for goblin hunting in Droga, which is the only use case for a ranger as far I can tell.

Personally I would have swapped to Baton after EC proc and left the whip in offhand to minimize click fatigue. It's not optimal for rune procs but the wangjangling you were doing would drive me insane over an extended hunt.

Yea I agree too. I just didn’t want to add variables with the test.

I think the baton would have been very solid compromise.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thanks for digging into it :).

I mixed greater healing and sat with the fungi and chloro on. I also refreshed buffs more than needed to make sure they didn’t drop.

No problem! Thanks again for the data, and thanks for letting me know your recovery plan.

Lmk when ya stop using formula and start actually doing what ya theory craft. Why not roll a ranger?

The data is from a real level 60 Ranger. That isn't theorycraft.

Going back to the averages from Snaggle's data:


1. Meljeldin - 86 seconds per kill, and you take 2034 damage per kill.

2. EC + Whip - 110 seconds per kill, and you take 1333 damage per kill.


Standing Regen is 29 HP/Tick with Fungi + Chloroplast. The damage numbers including Regen look like this:


1. Meljeldin - 86 seconds per kill, and you take 1628 damage per kill when accounting for Regen.

2. EC + Whip - 110 seconds per kill, and you take 811 damage per kill when accounting for Regen.


Using Snaggle's recovery plan, Fungi + Chloroplast + Sitting is 32 HP/Tick. Greater Healing costs 150 mana per 270 HP, so you are getting 270 HP per 8 ticks of meditate. That is 34 HP per Tick.

(32 HP per Tick + 34 HP per Tick) / 6 seconds = 11 HP/Second. When you put everything together:

1. Meljeldin - (1628 / 11) = 148 seconds of recovery time + 86 seconds of kill time is 234 seconds per kill.

2. EC + Whip - (811 / 11) = 73 seconds of recovery time + 110 seconds of kill time is 183 seconds per kill.

[Ripqozko]

No problem! Thanks again for the data, and thanks for letting me know your recovery plan.



The data is from a real level 60 Ranger. That isn't theorycraft.

Going back to the averages from Snaggle's data:



Standing Regen is 29 HP/Tick with Fungi + Chloroplast. The damage numbers including Regen look like this:



Using Snaggle's recovery plan, Fungi + Chloroplast + Sitting is 32 HP/Tick. Greater Healing costs 150 mana per 270 HP, so you are getting 270 HP per 8 ticks of meditate. That is 34 HP per Tick.

(32 HP per Tick + 34 HP per Tick) / 6 seconds = 11 HP/Second. When you put everything together:

1. Meljeldin - (1628 / 11) = 148 seconds of recovery time + 86 seconds of kill time is 234 seconds per kill.

2. EC + Whip - (811 / 11) = 73 seconds of recovery time + 110 seconds of kill time is 183 seconds per kill.

You should really try things for yourself, roll a ranger. You could even raid sometimes with us.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You should really try things for yourself, roll a ranger. You could even raid sometimes with us.

I know you miss me!

I have also tested the same concept on my Shadowknight using SK Epic vs. Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge.


These tests are attacking the same Geo, getting it down to 20% HP before using Feign Death to reset the mob.

Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge
==============================
3119 HP -> 1882 HP - 1 minute 40 seconds
3119 HP -> 1827 HP - 1 minute 25 seconds
3119 HP -> 2017 HP - 1 minute 25 seconds

3631 damage taken over 270 seconds = Geo does 13.4 DPS to me

SK Epic (This includes Epic Proc Heals)
==============================
3077 HP -> 2750 HP - 1 minute 30 seconds
3077 HP -> 2500 HP - 1 minute 55 seconds
3077 HP -> 2230 HP - 2 minute 06 seconds

1751 damage taken over 331 seconds = Geo does 5.3 DPS to me


I can recover 520 HP/Minute out of combat. 520 / 60 = 8.6 HP/Second.

1. Flamberge - 1210 Damage / 8.6 seconds = 141 seconds recovery time + 90 seconds of kill time is 232 seconds per kill.

2. Sk Epic - 584 Damage / 8.6 seconds = 68 seconds of recovery time + 110 seconds of kill time is 178 seconds per kill.

[Ripqozko]

I know you miss me!

I have also tested the same concept on my Shadowknight using SK Epic vs. Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge.



I can recover 520 HP/Minute out of combat. 520 / 60 = 8.6 HP/Second.

1. Flamberge - 1210 Damage / 8.6 seconds = 141 seconds recovery time + 90 seconds of kill time is 232 seconds per kill.

2. Sk Epic - 584 Damage / 8.6 seconds = 68 seconds of recovery time + 110 seconds of kill time is 178 seconds per kill.

As someone with ranger and SK at 60 it ain't same , try a ranger

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As someone with ranger and SK at 60 it ain't same , try a ranger

The relevant game mechanics in this discussion work the same for SK's and Rangers.

You will need to explain why you think Auto Attacking, Procs, and HP Regen are somehow different on a Ranger.

You will also need to explain why you think Snaggle's data doesn't work for this discussion.

[Ripqozko]

The relevant game mechanics in this discussion work the same for SK's and Rangers.

You will need to explain why you think Auto Attacking, Procs, and HP Regen are somehow different on a Ranger.

You will also need to explain why you think Snaggle's data doesn't work for this discussion.

I just think instead of theorycraft you should try the class

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I just think instead of theorycraft you should try the class

Snaggle's data is real level 60 Ranger data. A level 60 Ranger parse isn't theorycraft.

If you think Snaggle's data is faulty, feel free to provide better data!

[TytosOfEight]

As someone with ranger and SK at 60 it ain't same , try a ranger

To be fair, I play my ranger every single day (for the most part) and I solo in a range of places, even in more difficult places like Chardok and Seb, and my experience aligns perfecting with what DeathsSilkyMist is finding. EC main and Silver Whip in offhand is BiS solo setup, with Whip swap to main and Claw in offhand after slow proc. I think Essence mace in offhand after swap might be even better, but I put my mace on my monk, so I can't test it.

[TytosOfEight]

I think you handicapped yourself hard by not using avatar, especially with the gimmicks. It's huge for Cek sword as well, but you had wolf form for 40/100 atk. I found that archery with a 2 hander especially maintains avatar for like 80% uptime with just pulls without having to force a proc. Very good for goblin hunting in Droga, which is the only use case for a ranger as far I can tell.

Personally I would have swapped to Baton after EC proc and left the whip in offhand to minimize click fatigue. It's not optimal for rune procs but the wangjangling you were doing would drive me insane over an extended hunt.

I've found that PD sword is best for lower level mobs like Droga and Hill Giants. No need to dispel. And with a Fungi and Ring 10, I take basically no damage with the big rune procs.

[Vexenu]

Not sure why Ripqozko is having difficulty understanding that proccing rune and slow repeatedly over the course of multiple fights substantially reduces damage taken, which in turns reduces downtime, which makes the Whip/EC combo more efficient over time despite marginally slower per-mob kill speed. These are really basic EverQuest mechanics at play here.

DSM is DSM, but he's absolutely right in this case.

[Crede]

Not sure why Ripqozko is having difficulty understanding that proccing rune and slow repeatedly over the course of multiple fights substantially reduces damage taken, which in turns reduces downtime, which makes the Whip/EC combo more efficient over time despite marginally slower per-mob kill speed. These are really basic EverQuest mechanics at play here.

DSM is DSM, but he's absolutely right in this case.

Bc he's lazy and doesn't want to use the 2 apm swapping weps and just afks with the downtime. Pretty common around here tbh. Also most of these calculations are involving EC/whip which you'd be immediately swapping out EC after a proc.

[kjs86z2]

Gee golly gosh what a surprise the ranger epic combo + vyemm rune whip is BiS solo

start EC til slow, toss whip in main, equip swiftwind...done

i could have told you this with zero data and never having played a ranger before

some of you take this shit way too seriously

[Snaggles]

I feel like the Essence Mace and Silver whip might be the best combo for all around use. Swapping the MH to OH depending on how you value durability over dps. It would likely be a 8-10% drop over the BoF/Claw but you also end up with a lot more MR over say a Meljeldin.

If anyone knows someone with a scale for sale on Blue, lemme know :D . I feel like it would be better as a ring…but we all see where this is going.

PS: Much of this should have caveats. Not to play both sides (I don’t care) but while I suspected slowing would be a savings I was surprised at the difference. Functionally it really just serves to remind that the swarmcaller at 400p is the best value on the sim for a melee character. Or right up there with a Peacebringer at least.

[sammoHung]

to what end though? is all this minutia going to actually affect viability?

will it be the difference between soloing something and not?

[Snaggles]

to what end though? is all this minutia going to actually affect viability?

will it be the difference between soloing something and not?

In every case without expendables or outside buffs/heals my self buffed 3100 hp ranger could solo a geonid. I expect without a slow landing, the EC/Whip could have failed that or gotten very close, as the Baton/Claw almost did once (I was a couple hits from death).

The harder the mob and longer the fight, the more slow proc is a necessary thing, by Swarmcaller or EC. If pushing the limits it’s your HP pool and dps vs theirs. If a ranger doesn’t want to cheat to win, and are reliant on exchanging hits, the cards aren’t in their favor like some other classes.

For the record…rangers shouldn’t be soloing geos for exp. It’s a rather painful process even if you have solid gear.

[TytosOfEight]

I feel like the Essence Mace and Silver whip might be the best combo for all around use. Swapping the MH to OH depending on how you value durability over dps. It would likely be a 8-10% drop over the BoF/Claw but you also end up with a lot more MR over say a Meljeldin.

If anyone knows someone with a scale for sale on Blue, lemme know :D . I feel like it would be better as a ring…but we all see where this is going.

PS: Much of this should have caveats. Not to play both sides (I don’t care) but while I suspected slowing would be a savings I was surprised at the difference. Functionally it really just serves to remind that the swarmcaller at 400p is the best value on the sim for a melee character. Or right up there with a Peacebringer at least.

Not to be pedantic or argumentative, but Geonids are one of the most chilled spots to top-up exp in the game. They don’t summon and have very low MR, so they don’t resist anything. I can usually churn through like 8-10 of them before needing to med on my ranger. It’s super easy. I’m not sure why you’re having trouble with them.

[Snaggles]

Not to be pedantic or argumentative, but Geonids are one of the most chilled spots to top-up exp in the game. They don’t summon and have very low MR, so they don’t resist anything. I can usually churn through like 8-10 of them before needing to med on my ranger. It’s super easy. I’m not sure why you’re having trouble with them.

I don’t have a ring 10 for one. I wasn’t proccing Avatar as well, and clicked off my melee raid buffs from Kael. For the first leg of this testing I had C2 which pretty much let me grind without stopping.

My point is that for normal geared people in the high 50’s this isn’t ideal solo exp. Not when there are mobs out there with a few thousand hps who won’t occasionally get hasted by nearby friendlies.

Also, I’ve had max exp since 2020 so this was just out of curiosity since we were lacking actual data.

[Jimjam]

Bc he's lazy and doesn't want to use the 2 apm swapping weps and just afks with the downtime. Pretty common around here tbh. Also most of these calculations are involving EC/whip which you'd be immediately swapping out EC after a proc.

I do like the lack of push on 2hers. It is good being able to just toggle autoattack, MAYBE hit a kickspam macro and just afk for a min or two. It needs less thought to positioning than dual wield. I’m not sure whether this really counts as playing the game at that point.

[Snaggles]

My results are on page 33. The HP loss from the EC/Whip was quite a bit lower. With R10 and a couple heals I can see it being sustainable until a med break.

[TytosOfEight]

I don’t have a ring 10 for one. I wasn’t proccing Avatar as well, and clicked off my melee raid buffs from Kael. For the first leg of this testing I had C2 which pretty much let me grind without stopping.

My point is that for normal geared people in the high 50’s this isn’t ideal solo exp. Not when there are mobs out there with a few thousand hps who won’t occasionally get hasted by nearby friendlies.

Also, I’ve had max exp since 2020 so this was just out of curiosity since we were lacking actual data.

That's fair. And having thought about it a bit more, it's probably closer to 6-7 before needing to med. I usually start at the middle entrance and do the left one, 2 at the rock, then the 2 slightly further in (left and right) and 1 or 2 after those before medding and going left or right.

[Snaggles]

I do like the lack of push on 2hers. It is good being able to just toggle autoattack, MAYBE hit a kickspam macro and just afk for a min or two. It needs less thought to positioning than dual wield. I’m not sure whether this really counts as playing the game at that point.

DW push is a nightmare on raids. Watching many of those people enrage death though makes it a bit easier to be tolerate.

[Goregasmic]

Gee golly gosh what a surprise the ranger epic combo + vyemm rune whip is BiS solo


Easy to say once the data is out. Why are you guys always so mad about people testing stuff?

Rip's idea of mitigation through higher DPS could have been valid. That's what came out of the monk common weap parses thread. A hypothesis remains one until somebody actually tests it.

[sammoHung]

Can a BiS ranger solo Warlord Skarlorn in Sol B?

I was able to (albeit a close fight) with my non-BiS monk. I still think monk is leagues ahead of ranger in solo capability. Everywhere I have soloed on my ranger, I have soloed more effectively on a monk. Yes, the ranger doesn't have quite as good gear as the monk - but the ranger debate seems to point to requiring BiS gear to get to the same effectiveness as your average casual raiding monk.

[Ripqozko]

Can a BiS ranger solo Warlord Skarlorn in Sol B?

I was able to (albeit a close fight) with my non-BiS monk. I still think monk is leagues ahead of ranger in solo capability. Everywhere I have soloed on my ranger, I have soloed more effectively on a monk. Yes, the ranger doesn't have quite as good gear as the monk - but the ranger debate seems to point to requiring BiS gear to get to the same effectiveness as your average casual raiding monk.

of course they are leagues ahead, thats why i prefer mitigation by dps. the defense/block on monk is significantly better at reducing dmg.

[Cecily]

BIS ranger can solo King Tranix. Just hurts to think about getting BIS on a ranger and being outshined by EC tunnel monks (which I don't think is actually the case having a 60 monk with slightly better than EC gear, but it's uncomfortably close for the disparity in effort acquiring the gear).

I'm solidly in camp kill it faster. Proc reliance burns you too often and rangers recover quickly. I've only soloed 3 rangers to 60, so take that with a grain of salt.

[kjs86z2]

Easy to say once the data is out. Why are you guys always so mad about people testing stuff?

Rip's idea of mitigation through higher DPS could have been valid. That's what came out of the monk common weap parses thread. A hypothesis remains one until somebody actually tests it.

It didn't need testing. Its a slow and a rune proc. Nothing is going to beat that as far as mobs per hour solo.

I've never played a ranger and I could have told you this.

[Naethyn]

Mathematical summary:
=========================

Even though you started with:
10% chance to Parry
10% chance to Riposte
10% chance to Dodge
10% chance to Block

Does NOT mean only 60% of hits will get through!!!

In reality:

In this example, for every time a mob attacks you there is:
10 % chance you Parry it
9 % chance you Riposte it
8.1 % chance you Dodge it
7.29 % chance you Block it

and a 65.61% chance the mob hits you

So Block has a 10% chance to work, but an effective use of 7.29% because of earlier defensive checks.

[Cecily]

It didn't need testing. Its a slow and a rune proc. Nothing is going to beat that as far as mobs per hour solo.

I've never played a ranger and I could have told you this.

Rangers have trash DEX if they're not using avatar. If they have good DEX, they have deficiencies in AC/HP/STR. Slow + Rune is a lot more viable capping Dex. I don't think it's worth it with shitty gear and rangers have trouble benefiting from the AC on good gear.

[kjs86z2]

Can a BiS ranger solo Warlord Skarlorn in Sol B?

I was able to (albeit a close fight) with my non-BiS monk. I still think monk is leagues ahead of ranger in solo capability. Everywhere I have soloed on my ranger, I have soloed more effectively on a monk. Yes, the ranger doesn't have quite as good gear as the monk - but the ranger debate seems to point to requiring BiS gear to get to the same effectiveness as your average casual raiding monk.

A monk is going to get to these mobs and get them killed before the ranger can even set up a pull unless its outdoors.

lmk when a ranger solos something significant

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mathematical summary:
=========================

Even though you started with:
10% chance to Parry
10% chance to Riposte
10% chance to Dodge
10% chance to Block

Does NOT mean only 60% of hits will get through!!!

In reality:

In this example, for every time a mob attacks you there is:
10 % chance you Parry it
9 % chance you Riposte it
8.1 % chance you Dodge it
7.29 % chance you Block it

and a 65.61% chance the mob hits you

So Block has a 10% chance to work, but an effective use of 7.29% because of earlier defensive checks.

What is the context for this? As far as I know there are no classes in the game that get block and parry. It's one or the other. Parry or Block get checked first from my understanding, depending on which one you have.

You are correct that earlier checks make subsequent checks less likely, as they are checked in sequential order. That is why you generally see more Parries/Blocks than Dodges and Ripostes.

[sammoHung]

Just hurts to think about getting BIS on a ranger and being outshined by EC tunnel monks (which I don't think is actually the case having a 60 monk with slightly better than EC gear, but it's uncomfortably close for the disparity in effort acquiring the gear).


Yah I sadly didn't realize this until I already spent a boatload of plat on a SEoC MQ. Rangers still very fun though. I think rangers really shine in places like KC where you can snipe nameds from unattended camps.

[Cecily]

A monk is going to get to these mobs and get them killed before the ranger can even set up a pull unless its outdoors.

lmk when a ranger solos something significant

This is what peak male performance looks like.

elAYmxcDOrM

[Naethyn]

That is in reference to shield block, not the block we have here. This is data from live:

Preliminary Avoidance are checks that occur prior to a NPC actually landing a blow on you.

This is an explanation of how the defensive abilities fire in a nut shell.

The order is: Parry/Block --> Riposte --> Dodge --> Shield Block.

**Note: Nomenclature: Parry/Block will be refered to as "Parry" and Shield Block will be refered to as "Block". While no class gets both Parry and regular Block, tanks in particular use both Parry AND Shield Block thus, the guide will be written with that as the predominant theme.

Each defensive ability has a % chance of firing, thus causing you to avoid the attack. For the sake of easy math, lets assume each has a 10% chance to fire.

Mob attacks you:

First defensive tier: (Parry)
======================
Check 1: Parry (10%) So theres a 10% chance you successfully parry

Second defensive tier: (Riposte)
=======================

Parried?
(10% chance) Yes: Check 2: Still fires, Riposte (10%) but does nothing. Since you already "parried." Show "parried"

(90% chance) No: Check 2: Riposte (10%), attempt 2 at avoiding attack.

Not Parried, but Riposted: (9%...10% of the remaining 90%) Show "riposted"
-This shows that the chance to visibly see "riposted" is now 9%, regardless if parry fired or not

Third defensive tier: (Dodge)
=======================

Parried? (10% chance) Show "parried"

Not Parried: (90% chance)
---------------------------

Not Parried, but Riposted: (9%) Show "riposted"

Not Parried, AND not Riposted: (81% chance)
-------------------------------------------
Check Dodge (10%)

Not Parried, AND not Riposted, but Dodged: (8.1% chance..10% chance of the remaining 81%)

-This shows that the chance to visibly see "dodged" is only 8.1%

Fourth defensive tier: (Shield Block)
========================

Not Parried, AND, not Riposted, AND not Dodged: (72.9% chance)
----------------------------------------------------------------
Check Block (10%)

Not Parried, AND not Riposted, AND not Dodged, but Blocked: (7.29% chance):

-This shows that the chance to visibly see "blocked" is only 7.29%

In summation:
A single attack can be: dodged, parried, riposted and blocked, or any combination there of, but it will only "show" which ever checked first.

If you dodge and block a single attack, it will still show as "dodged" because you dodged it before you got to the shield block check point.

Since shield block is the last check, its ability decreases with every check before it. For you to see "You blocked suchandsuchs attack" It would mean you failed to dodge, parry, or riposte the attack first.

[Naethyn]

EQ Tanking Reference: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NixAkHvJHV29ziul55lSTsmyPNJnIH4GRDg_dmEp4DA/edit?usp=sharing

[Crede]

This is what peak male performance looks like.

elAYmxcDOrM

He doesn't look BiS. But yea, human 4tw. Sad tho to see all that mana, rangers combat spells suck.

[Cecily]

Did you know that you can exchange 150 mana for 270 hp?

[kjs86z2]

That is in reference to shield block, not the block we have here. This is data from live:

https://i.imgur.com/WrKPhfd.gif?noredirect

[Ripqozko]

Yah I sadly didn't realize this until I already spent a boatload of plat on a SEoC MQ. Rangers still very fun though. I think rangers really shine in places like KC where you can snipe nameds from unattended camps.

It's a fun class, one of my favorites. Tanking is not it's forte tho no matter how you slice it. They can do fairly well dps wise with either top end 1h or cek sword which I prefer for A. Cheaper dkp B. Higher potential highs .

[Crede]

Did you know that you can exchange 150 mana for 270 hp?

heh, greater heal really isn't a combat spell, nice try tho. for killin random greens? ok fine i'll give you that.

[Cecily]

Did you know that you can cast a spell to make things not move? Bit of an advanced tactic, but you cast a "root" type spell and you move backwards and switch your target to yourself and cast that heal spell on yourself 1 - 3 times and then move back into melee. And after combat, you can use the heal spells on yourself to get ready for the next fight, too. *sucks in air through braces* Nice try, tho.

[Crede]

again, for killin random greens/trash mobs. gl breaking even on tranix while getting summoned, or any relevant mob for that matter.

And if you still aren't sure what actual combat healing spells are, let me help you out with that:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Drain_Soul
https://wiki.project1999.com/Celestial_Cleansing

[Cecily]

Hi I'm making fun of you for having the opinion that having mana gear on a ranger is wasted. That's an idiot thought. It's useful. Even if you don't use the mana on "combat spells" on the class that primarily has utility spells. You can use that mana on things that aren't Tranix, too, and that's surprisingly more common.

Thank you for clarifying your position that rangers don't have SK / Paladin spells.

[Crede]

If you're prioritizing mana on a ranger, that is an idiot thought. but go ahead keep recasting cotp to make it feel relevant.

Edit: Since you edited:

Thank you for literally describing what I said the mana can be used on.

[Cecily]

If you're prioritizing mana on a ranger, that is an idiot thought. but go ahead keep recasting cotp to make it feel relevant

If you can't see how having a large mana pool is helpful for a ranger in terms of overall gameplay, you're not smart enough to continue interacting with. We're done.

[Crede]

If you can't see how having a large mana pool is helpful for a ranger in terms of overall gameplay, you're not smart enough to continue interacting with. We're done.

Never said there weren't uses or it's not helpful in certain situations. It just should not be a priority for rangers over other stats. If you are still trying to make a case for ranger greater heal being relevant on solo artist mobs, then we are indeed done interacting.

I already said it was useful for random greens/trash. Feel free to provide more examples other than "things".

[Jimjam]

DW push is a nightmare on raids. Watching many of those people enrage death though makes it a bit easier to be tolerate.

dw is a great faction hit dodge on raids, but this thread is more orientated around solo remember :)

[Snaggles]

It didn't need testing. Its a slow and a rune proc. Nothing is going to beat that as far as mobs per hour solo.

I've never played a ranger and I could have told you this.

I’ve had my Ranger since 2011 and couldn’t tell you withcertainty to what degree it would be better or worse. That’s why I tested it. Also why I hadn’t used my Earthcaller in a few years outside some yolo Klandicar bump openers.

A shame you didn’t mention this in the first 30 pages. I truly was more in the Rip camp of logic before I tried it. Now I’m bagging my warriors Eashen sword until the ToD procs while soloing to 60. Live and learn…

[Jimjam]

Mathematical summary:
=========================

Even though you started with:
10% chance to Parry
10% chance to Riposte
10% chance to Dodge
10% chance to Block

Does NOT mean only 60% of hits will get through!!!

In reality:

In this example, for every time a mob attacks you there is:
10 % chance you Parry it
9 % chance you Riposte it
8.1 % chance you Dodge it
7.29 % chance you Block it

and a 65.61% chance the mob hits you

So Block has a 10% chance to work, but an effective use of 7.29% because of earlier defensive checks.

I previously was interested in how the different defence skills stacked up. I had planned on a more detailed write up, but lost the heart. Here are some notes I had previously shared in pm.

I compared riposte vs swings on two different level 53 halfling warriors - one which had trained dodge and parry, the other which hadn't.

115/2644 = 0.434 ripostes per enemy swing when dodge/parry has been trained

vs

116/2593 = 0.447 ripostes per enemy swing when dodge/parry has NOT been trained

That is just shy of 3% more ripostes when no dodge/parry was being made. That is the direction we would expect if dodge or parry override riposte... Was this down to chance? IDK. A simple statistical test like Chi square would explain away the difference as being down to chance.

I hope this wasn't too random a tangent.

[loramin]

on two different level 53 halfling warriors - one which had trained dodge and parry, the other which hadn't.

I need to hear the story of how someone got a Warrior to 53 without training dodge or parry.

[Jimjam]

I need to hear the story of how someone got a Warrior to 53 without training dodge or parry.

Well I had one with the skills trained, so I did another one without. I think I had the idea when i was playing on a level 25 warrior in guk - “how can i riposte more?” - Was curious whether it would score more hits with riposte and cut down fight times anything worthwhile with parry/defence untrained. Plus more hits incoming means better value from DS buffs and pots. Was a fun investigation, but didn’t really go anywhere.

[loramin]

Well I had one with the skills trained, so I did another one without. I think I had the idea when i was playing on a level 25 warrior in guk - “how can i riposte more?” - Was curious whether it would score more hits with riposte and cut down fight times anything worthwhile with parry/defence untrained. Plus more hits incoming means better value from DS buffs and pots. Was a fun investigation, but didn’t really go anywhere.

And yet you took him all the way to 53!

https://media.tenor.com/svTTSH3vuB0AAAAM/nice-wow.gif

[Cecily]

I doubt you feel any difference. Short of a monk, and that's solely due to the excellent block sound effect, avoidance only really noticeable when you double dodge incoming 1500s.

[Jimjam]

I doubt you feel any difference. Short of a monk, and that's solely due to the excellent block sound effect, avoidance only really noticeable when you double dodge incoming 1500s.

Yeah the lack of dodge/parry was basically unnoticable. It didn't really make things any harder than the previous characters I'd levelled.

[shovelquest]

yeah even the ripost disc on live really doesn't net you much damage at all.

So not surprised that awesome idea didn't pan out. But awesome idea anyway jimjam.

[kjs86z2]

Hi I'm making fun of you for having the opinion that having mana gear on a ranger is wasted. That's an idiot thought. It's useful. Even if you don't use the mana on "combat spells" on the class that primarily has utility spells. You can use that mana on things that aren't Tranix, too, and that's surprisingly more common.

Thank you for clarifying your position that rangers don't have SK / Paladin spells.

bro not so bright on this one

mana is a shit stat, flowing thought is more betterer

[loramin]

bro not so bright on this one

mana is a shit stat, flowing thought is more betterer

Did Cecily ever say Flowing Thought was bad, or are you just making a bad faith straw man argument?

https://scontent-sjc6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/484867728_1076575574467139_119745483285706363_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=833d8c&_nc_ohc=IZRXn_5Z7kIQ7kNvwHrs6lv&_nc_oc=Adk2iGnEd1sY5-0Va6FDnAgQSDvQOEuCg6ucOSZCI6BKXI6r9Ya-rJpXdgl6i5rTc-M&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc6-1.xx&_nc_gid=Gb3I6kX7ZHU2faRPTgc3PA&oh=00_AfZ0zIm7TI9jHBEk6xjnruGNGgDVMAwebIJZhHqq8-wsag&oe=68E49139

[shovelquest]

Did Kjs86z2 say that Cecily said flowing thought was bad, or are you just making a bad faith straw man argument.

https://i.imgur.com/vHEdaZN.png

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did Kjs86z2 say that Cecily said flowing thought was bad, or are you just making a bad faith straw man argument.

Kjs86z2 did not make the claim that Cecily said flowing thought was bad.

Loramin is just doing his normal routine of randomly attacking posters in a random thread. Often times he barely reads the thread/posts, so he doesn't undertstand what is happening. That is why his attacks generally don't make sense.

bro not so bright on this one

mana is a shit stat, flowing thought is more betterer

Max mana should be a lower priority for sure. When trying to maximize kills per hour, you generally aren't meditating to full mana before the next kill, so extra max mana is often unused. Flowing Thought is especially nice in scenarios where you are playing for hours at a time.

Max mana is more useful when doing solo artist kills, as you are starting the fight at Max HP/Mana. Often times the fight isn't going to last that long, so Flowing Thought isn't giving you a lot of mana in that single fight. But this obviously depends on the fight and the strategy. Bow kiting an Ice Burrower is going to take a long time lol.

[loramin]

Yeah, he didn't just make an entire post that said nothing except "mana bad, FT good" in response to Cecily saying "mana good". I'm the one who can't read :rolleyes:

[shovelquest]

So he disagrees how good mana is, and thinks flowing thought should be highly prioritized.

Yes: learn how to read if you're going to make insulting accusations.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So he disagrees how good mana is, and thinks flowing thought should be highly prioritized.

Yes: learn how to read if you're going to make insulting accusations.

This is correct. There is no reason to assume Kjs86z2 is claiming Cecily said "Flowing Thought is bad" when Kjs86z2 literally didn't make that claim.

Kjs86z2 should have worded his post less agressively, but an agressive post does not imply it has hidden and unspoken claims.

[loramin]

So he disagrees how good mana is, and thinks flowing thought should be highly prioritized.

Yes: learn how to read if you're going to make insulting accusations.

Here, I'll try to break it down in a way you can understand.

When I say "the guy behind THJ is a douche", a normal rational/logical argument against it is to say something like "no, he's not a douche: he helps orphans learn to read" (or some other argument that's pertinent to what I said).

If you don't have a rational/logical argument to make, you'll instead say something like "the guy behind THJ isn't a douche, and America is awesome!" Now, I didn't say anything at all about America, but by throwing that in you make it sound like I did, and like you're rebutting the point (I didn't make).

Can I explain some more things slowly for you in bad analogies about THJ? Since that's just about all that you post about these days.

[kjs86z2]

im just saying cecily dying on the mana hill is pretty godamn dumb...and the only mana-ish stat that would ever be decent on ranger is FT

and hes being a little bitch about it to boot

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here, I'll try to break it down in a way you can understand.

When I say "the guy behind THJ is a douche", a normal rational/logical argument against it is to say something like "no, he's not a douche: he helps orphans learn to read" (or some other argument that's pertinent to what I said).

If you don't have a rational/logical argument to make, you'll instead say something like "the guy behind THJ isn't a douche, and America is awesome!" Now, I didn't say anything at all about America, but by throwing that in you make it sound like I did, and like you're rebutting the point (I didn't make).

Can I explain some more things slowly for you in bad analogies about THJ? Since that's just about all that you post about these days.

Now Loramin is bringing off-topic nonsense about a different server (THJ) into a thread about P99 melee classes.

It would be a lot easier if he just read people's posts as-is, and admitted when he was wrong.

im just saying cecily dying on the mana hill is pretty godamn dumb...and the only mana-ish stat that would ever be decent on ranger is FT

and hes being a little bitch about it to boot

Dying on that hill is silly, I agree.

[loramin]

This message is hidden because DeathsSilkyMist is on your ignore list.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm the one who can't read

The funny thing is I am the one who said Loramin can't read, not Shovelquest. Pretty sure Loramin is still reading my posts, and just pretends to have me on ignore:D

[Cecily]

im just saying cecily dying on the mana hill is pretty godamn dumb...and the only mana-ish stat that would ever be decent on ranger is FT

and hes being a little bitch about it to boot

Rangers get two three FT items in this timeline and they're all FT1 and one of them is a shield and another is the Coldain Prayer Shawl. What was your point again? That rangers should get the Eye of Cazic Thule for mana related reasons? Yes, I agree. I also appreciate a larger raw mana pool as the best way for increased sustain because rangers 1) don't get time to sit and 2) are the worst class at meditate besides bard. Thanks for joining DSM on weighing on stuff you have experience to talk about.

I've leveled 3 rangers to 60. You are an obnoxious edge lord who is a raider min/maxer like most peanut-brained MMO players these days. You have played zero rangers.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thanks for joining DSM on weighing on stuff you have experience to talk about.

We do indeed have the experience to discuss these issues!

If this was a typo, and you are saying we don't have experience, please explain how Max Mana, Mana Regen, and Flowing Thought work differently on a Ranger compared to other classes.

[Cecily]

It's literally all in the post, and that's actually sarcasm. But since you can't read:

1. Limited FT itemization, FT1 is ranger cap. FT is good.
2. Meditation skill is the lowest* on ranger out of all classes that can meditate. This means that med breaks are slower for them.
3. Having a larger mana pool increases uptime and is directly proportional to how many heals and other spells (regen/DS) you can cast to further extend that uptime. I like actively playing more than I like recovery.

So in a very common situation where you're the tank in an exp group on a ranger, your role is to spit flame licks and root CC. Tanks don't get time to sit. Rangers meditate poorly. Longer uptime before break is good.

Let me know if there's any big words or concepts you need explained.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's literally all in the post, and that's actually sarcasm. But since you can't read:

1. Limited FT itemization, FT1 is ranger cap. FT is good.
2. Meditation skill is the lowest* on ranger out of all classes that can meditate. This means that med breaks are slower for them.
3. Having a larger mana pool increases uptime and is directly proportional to how many heals and other spells (regen/DS) you can cast to further extend that uptime. I like actively playing more than I like recovery.

So in a very common situation where you're the tank in an exp group on a ranger, your role is to spit flame licks and root CC. Tanks don't get time to sit. Rangers meditate poorly. Longer uptime before break is good.

Let me know if there's any big words or concepts you need explained.

Let me ask you a question. Do you always meditate back to full mana before starting a new encounter, or do you sometimes start a new encounter under 100% mana?

If you generally start a new encounter at say 2000/2400 mana, you are not using 400 of your max mana that is from gear in each of those encounters.

Max mana is good when you are starting an encounter at max mana, let's say a solo artist challenge. You can cast more spells in a short period before OOM.

This is true across all classes. You don't need 3 60 Rangers to understand this.

On my SK I don't wait until 100% mana to start fighting a new mob in a group when I am tanking and/or pulling.

[Cecily]

That's a great question and if you had any reading comprehension I assume you would already know whether or not I med to full every encounter. You're the second person to bring up solo artist challenges and that's fundamentally not what the class is about. This is a class that chases frogs across Trak's Teeth. I posted Hektor's excellent solo video because I think it's cool, but it's not where the class shines at all.

Let me know if you have any relevant questions I haven't already answered.

[Snaggles]

Yea, basically your utility spells which are frequently casted are so low mana it’s effectively moot. Even using Enveloping Roots (80m) instead of grasping, ensnare (35m) instead of snare, and flame lick (10m) you will hardly ever struggle, certainly not with POTG or C2. There is a middle root which is like 60m, 1.5m max duration, and a slower cast time if needed.

The spells that cost mana are going to be the ones that bankrupt you. SoN for 20+ rogues, CoTP for everyone who seldom asks after in a full group, or Calefaction if trying to KS fairies on island 1 of Sky.

Greater healing might be the best argument for a mana dump while around a corner waiting for a heal…but it’s a bad hp/mana conversion and is rather horrid for in-fight use. Compared a 1.5 sec pally HoT or a chunky Drain Soul. To each their own but I’ve always priorized Mana/Wis just above AC, both of which are below SV Disease and poison…

[kjs86z2]

It's literally all in the post, and that's actually sarcasm. But since you can't read:

1. Limited FT itemization, FT1 is ranger cap. FT is good.
2. Meditation skill is the lowest* on ranger out of all classes that can meditate. This means that med breaks are slower for them.
3. Having a larger mana pool increases uptime and is directly proportional to how many heals and other spells (regen/DS) you can cast to further extend that uptime. I like actively playing more than I like recovery.

So in a very common situation where you're the tank in an exp group on a ranger, your role is to spit flame licks and root CC. Tanks don't get time to sit. Rangers meditate poorly. Longer uptime before break is good.

Let me know if there's any big words or concepts you need explained.

for all that experience leveling rangers you didnt get very good at it did ya

the only thing a bigger mana pool does is make for longer med breaks...so if you're into that sort of thing, great...but you aren't gonna kill more mobs per hour having more mana

[Cecily]

If you don't have mana recovery, those cheap spells will eventually tank your mana and the recovery is bad. You can maintain a semi-homeostasis longer with more mana.

And yeah in a raid situation, SoN/CoTP will nuke your mana if you're the sole ranger and that happens a lot. That's mainly the whole utility for mana raiding.

The class is for running around and killing blues. Solo artist/raiding perspectives from people who don't have rangers in the first place aren't adding anything to the conversation about what boils down to MY preference and playstyle for a bad class I enjoy. Mana isn't bad to stack on a ranger and I respectfully disagree if you fucking morons think otherwise.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's a great question and if you had any reading comprehension I assume you would already know whether or not I med to full every encounter. You're the second person to bring up solo artist challenges and that's fundamentally not what the class is about. This is a class that chases frogs across Trak's Teeth. I posted Hektor's excellent solo video because I think it's cool, but it's not where the class shines at all.

Let me know if you have any relevant questions I haven't already answered.

I read your previous post just fine. I ask for clarity because I don't want to be accused of putting words in your mouth.

It is safe to say you do NOT meditate back to full mana before the next pull in a group.

This means you understand that you aren't using your max mana most of the time in this scenario. That is the point everybody is making.

[Cecily]

More mana not go out longer

[DeathsSilkyMist]

More mana not go out longer

There are other ways to save mana while tanking in a group. Using Tolan's Gloves for snare/agro and using Herbalist's Spade for root procs are two easy wins. You can also just alternate between who roots in a group. Chances are there will be someone else in the group who can root, and they will probably be meditating more often.

If the group is constantly having agro issues, it's probably not solely the Rangers fault. Fixing the group's issues is more efficient than stacking max mana.

[Cecily]

Lol. Did you know you can use 4 second cast items and proc weapons as a replacement for near instant cast, low mana spells? Thank you for sage insights as always.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol. Did you know you can use 4 second cast items and proc weapons as a replacement for near instant cast, low mana spells? Thank you for sage insights as always.

If you are having mana issues, the better way to save mana is by not spending it in the first place. Clickies, procs, and other group members (if applicable) help you do this.

I use clickies all the time on my Troll SK to save mana. They work great.

[sammoHung]

Necro is the best melee class because they get damage shield, lifetap proc, pet DPS to help, and they can use Staff of the silent star.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol. Did you know you can use 4 second cast items and proc weapons as a replacement for near instant cast, low mana spells? Thank you for sage insights as always.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGMz5gpf_EY

Here is a video of me using nothing but Blood Ember Gauntlets to maintain agro while my 20% hasted pet with dual wield beats a Geo down to 20%. In case you don't bother to watch the video, I am purposely running away from the Geo to show that the agro is on me instead of the pet. This is because mobs will prioritize the player over the pet anyway if they are in melee range.

Am I suggesting that players spam Blood Ember Gauntlets/Tolan Gauntlets to maintain agro? Of course not. But you can see that the gloves generate decent agro by themselves, even with a 5 second cast time. Landing 1-2 Tolan Gauntlet clicks while the mob is running into camp will already give you a decent leg up hate-wise for 0 mana. Tolan Gauntlets are also 1 second faster than Blood Ember Gauntlets, so Rangers have a bit of an advantage there compared to SK's.

[Danth]

Here is a video of me using nothing but Blood Ember Gauntlets to maintain agro while my 20% hasted pet with dual wield beats a Geo down to 20%.

I use the gloves the same way to aggro-kite ice burrowers once in awhile when I have some other melee partner. Works best with feigners who can blur themselves regularly, but I've also done it with folks who can't. Not something that can or should be used 100% of the time, and nobody's suggesting that, but it's a tool and has its place in the toolbox. In the shadowknight's case I'd say its place got a little bit larger after Disease Cloud got (wrongly) nerfed, but that's of no relevance to a ranger.

That being said I get where Cecily is coming from as well. It's nice having a larger mana pool, don't have to stress it as much, can go longer without needing to sit to meditate. Especially in a raid setting where your meditate breaks are usually timed with raid-wide breaks, you don't want to have to stop when nobody else is stopping. All a matter of building your character to do the jobs you're using it for.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I use the gloves the same way to aggro-kite ice burrowers once in awhile when I have some other melee partner. Works best with feigners who can blur themselves regularly, but I've also done it with folks who can't. Not something that can or should be used 100% of the time, and nobody's suggesting that, but it's a tool and has its place in the toolbox. In the shadowknight's case I'd say its place got a little bit larger after Disease Cloud got (wrongly) nerfed, but that's of no relevance to a ranger.

That being said I get where Cecily is coming from as well. It's nice having a larger mana pool, don't have to stress it as much, can go longer without needing to sit to meditate. Especially in a raid setting where your meditate breaks are usually timed with raid-wide breaks, you don't want to have to stop when nobody else is stopping. All a matter of building your character to do the jobs you're using it for.

Indeed.

And don't get me wrong, I understand that having a larger mana pool has benefits. Any stat increase your character can use will help you.

But one of the problems with Velious-era melee gear is it often lacks +WIS/INT and +Mana. This means increasing your max mana on a melee character often comes at the cost of other stats.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Blerv

Snaggle's Ranger is only getting like 36 WIS and 200 Mana from his current setup if I counted correctly. Obviously if he got more BiS/Near BiS items like white Dragon Helm/Crown of the Kromzek Kings/Crown of Rile, Ring of Destruction, Eye of Cazic Thule, etc. he could have the best of both worlds. But that is a lot of time/DKP.

[Duik]

If you have more mana you can maybe choose when to med break. It offers choices by allowing you to start lower % but have same mana as your example ranger does.
A suprise pop or wanderer can be dealt with using the extra (useless) mana.

I dunno im just slitballin' here.
Maybe dont dismiss someones opinion out of hand.
If you didnt see that (having more mana offers options), using your logic you are bad.
Disclaimer. There is no disclaimer

[Cecily]

But one of the problems with Velious-era melee gear is it often lacks +WIS/INT and +Mana. This means increasing your max mana on a melee character often comes at the cost of other stats.

Absolutely untrue. There's plenty of itemization issues in Velious, but finding gear that combines AC/STR/HP + INT/WIS/MANA is not one of them.

[Snaggles]

I’ve just never needed much mana. I’ll get more eventually but it’s just not on my radar. Maybe KT crown over the dragon helm?

My personal unbuffed goal is about 2800 hps, 255 MR, about 150 FR and CR without using 0hp SV gear (will also free up bag slots). With 255 MR and bark pots you can survive a lot of fears. 200 self buffed FR and CR feels very durable in ToV even with low hps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Absolutely untrue. There's plenty of itemization issues in Velious, but finding gear that combines AC/STR/HP + INT/WIS/MANA is not one of them.

It is true. You also forgot about resists, those are important stats too.

I can give you some quick examples of good Ranger gear without mana:

1 Spirit Wracked Cord - only 100 HP item in arm slot.

2. Fungi Tunic - Anytime you swap to Fungi you lose all max mana from your chest piece. This is especially painful if you have Robe of Azure Sky.

3. Vindi Boots

4. A lot of popular Ranger weapons like Meljeldin, Earthcaller, Swiftwind, Silver Whip of Rage, Claw of Lightning, Baton of Flame, etc.

BiS/Near BiS gear like Cazic Eye, Ring of Destruction, etc., will have all stats in good amounts, but it takes a long time to fully BiS a character. For most of your character's career you will have gear that doesn't have all stats. You'll also need to swap to resist gear in some scenarios.

Did you read my post on Blood Ember Gauntlets/Tolan Gauntlets hate generation? I have a video there that shows Blood Ember Gauntlets generating a decent amount of hate.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3764176&postcount=428

[Cecily]

Right, how could I forget the iconic ranger piece, Boots of the Vindicator:

Boots of the Vindicator

MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Slot: FEET
AC: 30
STR: +5 STA: +5 WIS: +5 INT: +5 HP: +50
SV DISEASE: +13
WT: 15.0 Size: MEDIUM
Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD BRD SHM
Race: ALL

You should talk about subjects you know about. No I didn't watch your video showing how clickies work you ogre INT weirdo.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Right, how could I forget the iconic ranger piece, Boots of the Vindicator:

Boots of the Vindicator

MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Slot: FEET
AC: 30
STR: +5 STA: +5 WIS: +5 INT: +5 HP: +50
SV DISEASE: +13
WT: 15.0 Size: MEDIUM
Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD BRD SHM
Race: ALL

You should talk about subjects you know about. No I didn't watch your video showing how clickies work you ogre INT weirdo.

I was thinking of mithril boots, my apologies. It is late.

I find it amusing that you ignored my entire argument and didn't watch the video that proves you are wrong about Tolan Gauntlets because you pounced on a small mistake.

Leveling 3 Rangers to 60 doesn't mean you know everything. You still don't understand clicky agro or mana management it seems.

You should stop assuming you know everything and try to learn once in a while. Calling everybody else stupid doesn't make it true, or make you look good.

[Cecily]

The presumption that you have anything to educate me with regarding a class I've leveled and raided with extensively which you also don't play is, quite frankly, presumptuous, and I don't appreciate it. Not knowing what you're talking about has never stopped you from interjecting, so it's really a me problem for engaging with a LLM. And I'm not calling everyone else stupid. I'm calling you stupid, specifically.

I apologize for not responding to your argument that items missing mana means that it's difficult to stack mana with raid gear. That was too ignorant a point to take seriously, and I'm not about to list off every piece of wisdom gear.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The presumption that you have anything to educate me with regarding a class I've leveled and raided with extensively which you also don't play is, quite frankly, presumptuous, and I don't appreciate it. Not knowing what you're talking about has never stopped you from interjecting, so it's really a me problem for engaging with a LLM.

The arrogance here is frankly astounding.

You don't seem to understand the basic concept that many game mechanics in P99 are universal across classes. You don't need to level or play a Ranger to learn basic mana management as a group tank.

After leveling 3 Rangers to 60, you still don't understand how to leverage clickies like Tolan Gauntlets to save mana. You don't need to play a Ranger to understand this concept, it works the same across multiple classes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGMz5gpf_EY


I apologize for not responding to your argument that items missing mana means that it's difficult to stack mana with raid gear. That was too ignorant a point to take seriously, and I'm not about to list off every piece of wisdom gear.

You clearly didn't read my argument. I said repeatedly you can get mana with high end raid gear. But most items in velious are not high end raid gear.

[Cecily]

You keep laboring that point like using slow casting painful to use items are good. That's shaman brain rot from mashing JBBs. That's not an efficient way to play a ranger. And I personally use a Wuoshi shield which casts a quicker and better snare. Ranger agro is generated by flame lick which costs 10 mana. You don't spam clickies for agro on a ranger. I'm perfectly well aware that the concept exists and that it's an option if necessary. I prefer to have a larger mana pool to delay that necessity as long as possible. I've just ignored you about 3 times now suggesting I don't know the concept.

You clearly didn't read my argument. I said repeatedly you can get mana with high end raid gear. But most items in velious are not high end raid gear.
I did read it. I thought your point was idiotic. Yeah I'm specifically talking about raid gear. The fact items exist that don't have wis/mana is not an argument. You also don't need that stat distribution in every slot. Doesn't really merit talking about because it's so trivially true. You are a buffoon.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You keep laboring that point like using slow casting painful to use items are good. That's shaman brain rot from mashing JBBs. That's not an efficient way to play a ranger. And I personally use a Wuoshi shield which casts a quicker and better snare. Ranger agro is generated by flame lick which costs 10 mana. You don't spam clickies for agro on a ranger. I'm perfectly well aware that the concept exists and that it's an option if necessary. I prefer to have a larger mana pool to delay that necessity as long as possible. I've just ignored you about 3 times now suggesting I don't know the concept.

You really need to read people's posts.

I didn't say to spam Tolan Gauntlets. I said you can click them 1-2 times on an incomming mob to get some free agro for 0 mana before the mob gets to you. You can also click them occasionally to save mana in a scenario where you don't need snap agro. This is basic stuff.

You are the one claiming you are running out of mana in an XP group. Clearly that 10 mana is a problem for you.

Woushi shield and Tolan Gauntlets are both 4 second casts.


I did read it. I thought your point was idiotic. Yeah I'm specifically talking about raid gear. The fact items exist that don't have wis/mana is not an argument. You also don't need that stat distribution in every slot. Doesn't really merit talking about because it's so trivially true. You are a buffoon.

Again, you don't read. Most people do not have full BiS Rangers. The magelo of your Ranger you linked isn't full BiS either. So yes, the majority of non-BiS gear is relevant for most players.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Green:Zalea

[Cecily]

So you suggest spending 8 seconds on an incoming mob to get agro similar to 10 mana? Yeah that sounds awful. Stop giving advice.

And apologies, I thought shield was 3.5 second. Guess that's more reason to not use it. Thanks. You did teach me something.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So you suggest spending 8 seconds on an incoming mob to get agro similar to 10 mana? Yeah that sounds awful. Stop giving advice.

And apologies, I thought shield was 3.5 second. Guess that's more reason to not use it. Thanks. You did teach me something.

You leveled 3 Rangers to 60 and you are still spamming flame lick until you run out of mana. Yes, 8 seconds of cast time for 0 mana while the mob is coming into camp is going to be better than you spamming flame lick into OOM.

I never said you shouldn't use Woushi shield if you have one lol. You really need to read.

Think about it this way. If you click your shield 60 times an hour instead of 60 Flame Licks, you would save 600 mana per hour. That is the same amount of mana as wearing a Flowing Thought I item. It's a good way to make up for the lack of Flowing Thought items a Ranger has access to.

[Jimjam]

Unlike the BE gloves/boots which I have found rather useful on my SK, I never found Tolan's gloves to get amazing use on my ranger... honestly I'd rather have the extra slot to loot another fine steel sword :o. Even when mucking about in KC they'd barely get any use when looted as primarily a cash item.

Anyways, considering the context of the thread is best solo power, free snare isn't terribly useful, especially as if you are soloing it is pretty easy to quickly catch a med tick and recoup mana spent on casting a snare properly. Soloing an ice burrower is a fun one time thing for a ranger to do when they have a spare hour or so. It is useful there as landing snare without a druid epic is pretty arduous, and by fighting an ice burrower with a ranger you've already committed to being pretty time intensive... I can't remember if you have time to land the snare cast on an unsnared IB, or if you have to start preresnaring before the current one fades. Definitely there must be some kind of 'usecase' there? But honestly, just finding half a second to catch a med tick feels better.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Unlike the BE gloves/boots which I have found rather useful on my SK, I never found Tolan's gloves to get amazing use on my ranger... honestly I'd rather have the extra slot to loot another fine steel sword :o. Even when mucking about in KC they'd barely get any use when looted as primarily a cash item.

Anyways, considering the context of the thread is best solo power, free snare isn't terribly useful, especially as if you are soloing it is pretty easy to quickly catch a med tick and recoup mana spent on casting a snare properly. Soloing an ice burrower is a fun one time thing for a ranger to do when they have a spare hour or so. It is useful there as landing snare without a druid epic is pretty arduous, and by fighting an ice burrower with a ranger you've already committed to being pretty time intensive... I can't remember if you have time to land the snare cast on an unsnared IB, or if you have to start preresnaring before the current one fades. Definitely there must be some kind of 'usecase' there? But honestly, just finding half a second to catch a med tick feels better.

The specific context is Cecily is saying they are going OOM. This means they need to save mana somehow.

You are correct that sitting for a tick will recover the 15 mana spent on snare. However, the cast time on the snare clickies are only 4 seconds.

This means you can save the 15 mana and catch the full meditation tick if you start casting the clickie snare after a server tick. You get the snare and 20 mana instead of the snare and 5 mana. You are effectively gaining 15 mana per snare this way.

[Cecily]

So I have 2300 mana. Flame lick costs 10. I cast it twice per mob. That's 20 mana. That's 115 mobs. Say 45 seconds a kill. That's 86 mins of uptime, not including passive mana regen. Snaggles ranger with 1600 mana gets 60 mins of uptime only spending mana on flame licks. It's not an issue that needs to be solved with Tolan's gloves. The mana just runs out eventually. It's ok. That's an example of how more mana not run out faster. Thank you for weighing in.

Your suggestion of saving 600 mana an hour with gloves clicks equates to 4 mins per hour of glove casting. No. That's pure aids.

Anyways this was just an aside about how originally I was arguing more mana isn't a bad thing and this is a group example, so not really relevant to the thread... Nor is the ranger class in general. They're great soloers, but the answer is monk and everyone knows it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So I have 2300 mana. Flame lick costs 10. I cast it twice per mob. That's 20 mana. That's 115 mobs. Say 45 seconds a kill. That's 86 mins of uptime, not including passive mana regen. Snaggles ranger with 1600 mana gets 60 mins of uptime only spending mana on flame licks. It's not an issue that needs to be solved with Tolan's gloves. The mana just runs out eventually. It's ok. That's an example of how more mana not run out faster. Thank you for weighing in.

Your suggestion of saving 600 mana an hour with gloves clicks equates to 4 mins per hour of glove casting. No. That's pure aids.

Anyways this was just an aside about how originally I was arguing more mana isn't a bad thing and this is a group example, so not really relevant to the thread... Nor is the ranger class in general. They're great soloers, but the answer is monk and everyone knows it.

If you only need to cast flame lick twice per mob, you will have infinite up time by simply meditating for 1 tick per mob. This could be done while a new mob is coming into camp, or the existing mob is fleeing. If your group's healer isn't struggling with mana, you could even do it mid combat and eat the bit of extra damage.

Snaggle's Ranger will have infinite up time in the same scenario with 700 less max mana using the strategy above.

You can also use a snare clickie at max casting range while the mob is coming into camp to have it switch agro from the puller to yourself. Then you only need to spend mana on flame lick if you lose agro, rather than always casting 2x flame lick even when you may not need to.

If you pair the snare clicky on incoming mobs with occasional meditation ticks, you'll get even more mana.

[Cecily]

Oh ok thanks

[Duik]

I can see how having more mana is a good thing, but im an aussie so everything you guys do is upside down anyways.
Am i correct in assuming if Cecily (frigsample) has total 2300mana, is currently at 1725 (75%) and needs to drop a few 0 stat sv items into slots that have + mana and/or wis. Say a total of 200 mana from 4 items.
So a new total of 1525 (out of a possible 2100), does the percent mana goes up, to make it look like they have more mana.
This would appear to open up more options.
But chasing more mana is silly. Sorry i forgot.

[Goregasmic]

Ranger mana pool gets chipped away at. With limited regen options and often little time to sit, more mana means more uptime, regardless of clickies, regardless of starting full or not. 80% of 2400mana is still more than 80% of 1800.

Bcbrown ranger's magelo is more or less EC BIS, leaning on the sturdier side. Yeah it is hard to get more mana on a EC beat but if you want more there are options. Melees get the 12mana/wis treatment too and you'll pretty much always be under the 200wis softcap so it is good returns. Yeah, you'll have to sacrifice some stats but depending on the task at hand it might not matter much. If you have the "luxury" of raiding gear it is even easier.

Sidenote: when I started chanter, almost everybody told me mana doesn't matter because you have high regen but even with +14 mana regen is always an issue. Different class with different struggles but a bigger pool is a bigger pool.

[Duik]

Yep agreed Gore.
More is more. No matter how you cut it.

I was trying to make the point that there is always more than one way to skin the cat. Clickies for various spells may work, who knows.
On an unrelated note, its a pity the two best mana rechargers, bard and chanter are so strong solo cuz virtually any duo/trio with (underpowered) bard or chanter would really encourage grouping. NVM.

[kjs86z2]

cecily posted all night and is still categorically wrong

its amazing people don't understand that a large mana pool does not equate to more mobs per hour

[Goregasmic]

cecily posted all night and is still categorically wrong

its amazing people don't understand that a large mana pool does not equate to more mobs per hour

Regen is regen but you can go longer before hitting a wall and you have more margin for dealing with problems. Depending on the context it may or may not be useful.

[Snaggles]

I feel what people sometimes forget is how slow this game is. Actual fights take a long time relative to any other video game. Running around while regening hps/mana, taking a quick AFK to grab a sandwich, etc.

Flame Lick is 10 mana. With a GCD you can fire off one every 2.5 seconds best case (quicker gets hit with the cooldown error message). So basically 20 mana every 5 seconds. With POTG or C2 it isn’t an issue. With both you get roughly 22mana standing mana regen without any FT item.

Aggro is never an issue with a ranger. Flame Lick is similar on cooldown to flash of light. SK’s disease cloud is as cheap but has a slower recycle rate, and disease counters are broken right now. That requires they use spells like Shadow Vortex for big chunks of aggro, and 60 mana isn’t “cheap”. Their equivalent to the rangers 15mana snare is engulfing darkness at 60 mana…the argument for the BE gaunts is at times justified.

Outside buffing, my ranger only goes oom from heavy buffing or casting mana-dumps like greater healing or Calefaction. A HUGE mana reserve would let a ranger recover a bit more hps when tucked behind a wall (but they normally would just expect heals or burn Worts). Calefaction typically only lands on blues and with a 2h can really boost dps (around 120 on short fights) it’s not memmed or used unless you are bored in the early stages of a ring war or plane of sky.

Jolting is 60 mana. With avatar and trueshot BFGing I jolt 10 times just to survive if it’s a raid mob. Without this, using normal weapons I might jolt once in the beginning and once or twice just to be sure I won’t die. If your ranger does 40-50dps on Vindi just wait a few seconds to start attacking. You shouldn’t get aggro ever.

[Snaggles]

BTW, I’m not nipping at anyone. Just putting extra perspective out there.

[Ripqozko]

I feel what people sometimes forget is how slow this game is. Actual fights take a long time relative to any other video game. Running around while regening hps/mana, taking a quick AFK to grab a sandwich, etc.

Flame Lick is 10 mana. With a GCD you can fire off one every 2.5 seconds best case (quicker gets hit with the cooldown error message). So basically 20 mana every 5 seconds. With POTG or C2 it isn’t an issue. With both you get roughly 22mana standing mana regen without any FT item.

Aggro is never an issue with a ranger. Flame Lick is similar on cooldown to flash of light. SK’s disease cloud is as cheap but has a slower recycle rate, and disease counters are broken right now. That requires they use spells like Shadow Vortex for big chunks of aggro, and 60 mana isn’t “cheap”. Their equivalent to the rangers 15mana snare is engulfing darkness at 60 mana…the argument for the BE gaunts is at times justified.

Outside buffing, my ranger only goes oom from heavy buffing or casting mana-dumps like greater healing or Calefaction. A HUGE mana reserve would let a ranger recover a bit more hps when tucked behind a wall (but they normally would just expect heals or burn Worts). Calefaction typically only lands on blues and with a 2h can really boost dps (around 120 on short fights) it’s not memmed or used unless you are bored in the early stages of a ring war or plane of sky.

Jolting is 60 mana. With avatar and trueshot BFGing I jolt 10 times just to survive if it’s a raid mob. Without this, using normal weapons I might jolt once in the beginning and once or twice just to be sure I won’t die. If your ranger does 40-50dps on Vindi just wait a few seconds to start attacking. You shouldn’t get aggro ever.

that first part is why i just dps and not rely on procs, generally when ya do something on ranger its not mobs per minute its a camp where you have time to regen. just killing the mobs and sitting works out better for timers and starts the sit to regen phase. I just believe half people here talking never actually played a ranger.

[Naethyn]

If you look cool enough you don't need regen and that other crap.

https://wiki.project1999.com/images/Golden_Leaf_Armor.png

[TytosOfEight]

I can give examples of how reducing downtime benefits my ranger. In TT, the hunter/forager cycle is much smoother when I don’t have to stop and regenerate hp/mana. Using EC/Whip to slow enemies and rune during combat saves a ton of time compared to medding. A Ring of Stealthy Travel is also incredibly useful, as it reduces mana costs. In Kael, I frequently do 4way on my ranger. With EC/Whip, I can take down all seven giants before needing to med, something I couldn’t do with just my Cek sword.

I’m sure there are likely many other scenarios where reducing med time would be a major advantage for rangers.

[Ripqozko]

I can give examples of how reducing downtime benefits my ranger. In TT, the hunter/forager cycle is much smoother when I don’t have to stop and regenerate hp/mana. Using EC/Whip to slow enemies and rune during combat saves a ton of time compared to medding. A Ring of Stealthy Travel is also incredibly useful, as it reduces mana costs. In Kael, I frequently do 4way on my ranger. With EC/Whip, I can take down all seven giants before needing to med, something I couldn’t do with just my Cek sword.

I’m sure there are likely many other scenarios where reducing med time would be a major advantage for rangers.

And there's 2-3 spawn camps like nobles, Brownie guards , etc that better break between us optimal. Who would of thought eq had multiple exp styles and ways the play . People should roll ranger and try for themselves

[bcbrown]

Unlike the BE gloves/boots which I have found rather useful on my SK, I never found Tolan's gloves to get amazing use on my ranger... honestly I'd rather have the extra slot to loot another fine steel sword :o. Even when mucking about in KC they'd barely get any use when looted as primarily a cash item.

Anyways, considering the context of the thread is best solo power, free snare isn't terribly useful, especially as if you are soloing it is pretty easy to quickly catch a med tick and recoup mana spent on casting a snare properly.

Definitely agree. I've never considered using Tolan's gloves, they're just not worth it. Anyone advocating for them isn't worth listening to.

Bcbrown ranger's magelo is more or less EC BIS, leaning on the sturdier side. Yeah it is hard to get more mana on a EC beat but if you want more there are options. Melees get the 12mana/wis treatment too and you'll pretty much always be under the 200wis softcap so it is good returns. Yeah, you'll have to sacrifice some stats but depending on the task at hand it might not matter much. If you have the "luxury" of raiding gear it is even easier.

I was actually planning on getting a Di'Zok Signet of Service for a while, figuring more mana=better. I farmed all the skins and everything but never pulled the trigger. My mana pool has just never felt like a constraint, unlike hp, dex, strength, ac, resists.

That said, I definitely agree with Cecily and Tytos about the benefits to reducing downtime of having a bigger mana pool. You can go longer between breaks, and you can better choose the timing of when you take a break. You don't need to start every fight at max hp/mana to still reap the benefits of increased hp/mana.

[Jimjam]

Really interesting discussion going on with losds of great points bouncing off each other.

I’ve found mana use is not very consistent on ranger. You’ll go plenty of fights basically spending none, but occasionally use spikes where you need to spend a bunch, and in these instances having enough remaining can be crucial. For example, messing about in Velks or KC you can churn, but a frenzied spider or knight of sathir can be a stretch.

In these instances you can’t just med up then engage - you don’t want to lose a runed blade or scwb that way so having a big reservoir you’ve not dipped much into helps - you'll regain it passively against the trash stuff.

This applies to TT too where you may end up eating a bunch of IC then go back to stuff
You can attrition at smooth pace.

[bcbrown]

I’ve found mana use is not very consistent on ranger. You’ll go plenty of fights basically spending none, but occasionally use spikes where you need to spend a bunch, and in these instances having enough remaining can be crucial. For example, messing about in Velks or KC you can churn, but a frenzied spider or knight of sathir can be a stretch..

Very true, and also speaks to Rip's point about different playstyles. One thing I like about ranger is how flexible and versatile it is with so many different ways to play it. And I've definitely had fights where a reserve of mana has been crucial, either for nuking down a tough mob quickly or for rooting and healing.

[Naethyn]

No reliable stun was always my pain point on ranger.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

.
Sidenote: when I started chanter, almost everybody told me mana doesn't matter because you have high regen but even with +14 mana regen is always an issue. Different class with different struggles but a bigger pool is a bigger pool.

Oh for sure. Enchanters benefit from max mana, especially at lower levels. I am trying to increase max mana on my Enchanter too. At lower levels blue mobs have a smaller level gap so you get more resists, your tash isn't as good, and you get more fizzles due to lower skill levels.

The difference is Enchanters have a lot more INT/Mana on their items in general. It is easier to balance INT/Mana/CHA/HP. My Enchanter Magelo is on the high end of EC gear, and has 13/20 items with Mana and/or int.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Blerv
https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Green:Zalea

Snaggles has 5/20 items with mana/wis
Cecily has 9/20 items with mana/wis

So they have an average of 7/20 items with mana/wis. This is because melee gear in the velious era is less likely to have both melee stats and mana/wis, unless we are talking about a full bis/near full bis Ranger.

Prioritizing mana often comes at the cost of other stats for melee characters.

Definitely agree. I've never considered using Tolan's gloves, they're just not worth it. Anyone advocating for them isn't worth listening to

Bcbrown is simply doing his trolling routine again. At least I hope so for his sake. I understand he is fairly new to P99 still, but he should really learn the basic concepts of clickies and how they save mana. With channeling being the way it is on P99, it is easy to channel through hits as well. I have a video showing how snare clickies generate agro, but Bcbrown often time ignores evidence unfortunately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGMz5gpf_EY

[Snaggles]

If you have a bunch of arrows summoned you can always root and step back like 20 feet, even indoors. It’s index finger Hell but with a decent kit it’s an option at least.

Similar specs before vs blue con Geonid, 60 ranger
1338 self buffed attack in greater wolf overlapped Avatar at 74% health (prior tests were without Avatar, roughly 1450 attack after). 91% haste. Tolan arrows (3dmg), Primal Bow, rooted target so no double damage hits

8083 Total damage….235seconds…34dps…78 hits…max hit 173…average 103
Roughly 4 mins plus 2 mins to summon arrows (x4 clicks)

With a fungi I’d use a Herbalist Spade to open and start plinking once root procs, (unless you have to cast it). They would not be quick fights.

Note: Still painful solo work. Pretty quick to put down highkeep nobles and bards though even if you dont have great gear. Snag a Tolan for sure :)

[Cecily]

I'm not really sure what utility there is to averaging item slots with mana. My ranger was an alt character I decided to stop supporting years ago. My next upgrades would have been Gauntlets of Dragon Slaying and Belt of Dwarf Slaying, which would have provided 439 mana from 2 slots. What items you get makes a difference. Yeah it's raid stuff.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not really sure what utility there is to averaging item slots with mana. My ranger was an alt character I decided to stop supporting years ago. My next upgrades would have been Gauntlets of Dragon Slaying and Belt of Dwarf Slaying, which would have provided over 500 mana from 2 slots. What items you get makes a difference. Yeah it's raid stuff.

And I've said many times that BiS raid gear gives you mana. Nobody is arguing otherewise.

The majority of melee gear in P99 is not BiS raid gear, so most Rangers (including yourself and Snaggles) are making trade-offs between mana, melee stats, and resists until they get full BiS gear. That has always been my point.

Many people have Ranger alts instead of mains, so they aren't going to go full BiS anyway.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Green:Ranelagh

Bcbrown's Ranger has 7/20 items with mana/wis.

I don't think anyone is denying you could wear more mana gear if you wanted to, but so far the pattern is less mana items and more melee stat/resist items.

[Cecily]

Not all gear is BIS, nor is most gear. Got it! Thanks

Anyways. Mana is good to have.

[bcbrown]

Note: Still painful solo work. Pretty quick to put down highkeep nobles and bards though even if you dont have great gear. Snag a Tolan for sure :)

A couple months ago I tried my hand solo against some geos (at level 56). I could kill them, but it was painfully not worth it. I'd root'n'shoot till like 60%, then Swarmcaller into dual wield. Tolan's Bracer is a huge QoL upgrade, definitely a must-have, unlike the gloves.

Oh, on your recommendation I got a BFG this summer too, definitely a really fun toy although I haven't yet figured out when it's appropriate to use. So far I've mostly broken it out for epic fights with disc, and it doesn't eat as many arrows as I feared. That and using the clicky whenever a friend is trying to hammer off me :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not all gear is BIS, nor is most gear. Got it! Thanks

Anyways. Mana is good to have.

So you think there is no pattern to 3 different rangers prioritizing melee gear/resist gear over gear with mana? It was just a random accident?

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Green:Ranelagh
https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Blerv
https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Green:Zalea

The average is 7/20 items with wis/mana on these Rangers, whereas my cloth caster has 13/20 items with int/mana. That has nothing to do with stat distribution on desireable melee gear for Rangers who are not full BiS?

Tolan's Bracer is a huge QoL upgrade, definitely a must-have, unlike the gloves.


Tolans gloves are cheap. You should try them out instead of simply ignoring them. Again it is easy to show their utility with evidence, if you are willing to learn something.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGMz5gpf_EY

[Cecily]

Not all gear has mana. Got it! Thanks.

[Cecily]

A couple months ago I tried my hand solo against some geos (at level 56). I could kill them, but it was painfully not worth it. I'd root'n'shoot till like 60%, then Swarmcaller into dual wield. Tolan's Bracer is a huge QoL upgrade, definitely a must-have, unlike the gloves.

Oh, on your recommendation I got a BFG this summer too, definitely a really fun toy although I haven't yet figured out when it's appropriate to use. So far I've mostly broken it out for epic fights with disc, and it doesn't eat as many arrows as I feared. That and using the clicky whenever a friend is trying to hammer off me :)

I've always found geos a pain in the ass and not sure why people like them. And I guess the answer is gems, but they're not fun to solo imo.

[Snaggles]

A ranger could have 4,000 mana and it really wouldn’t change what they can do. This is the biggest mana sink for a soloist challenge-type ranger. (Assuming you don’t just Ensnare and backpedal while plunking):

https://wiki.project1999.com/Ensnaring_Roots

For a SK or pally the questions are:
Did the sapper land?
Do you need to reproc avatar?
Are taps or HoT’s keeping up with incoming damage?
Are you mana neutral?

The last question is where the big mana reserves are make or break. Especially for a SK since the taps heal more/second than Celestial Cleansing but are mana intensive. A SK with a smidge over 2k mana can tap health 3040 back; with 3500 mana they can tap back 5070 health.

[Cecily]

More mana not go out longer.

[Snaggles]

A couple months ago I tried my hand solo against some geos (at level 56). I could kill them, but it was painfully not worth it. I'd root'n'shoot till like 60%, then Swarmcaller into dual wield. Tolan's Bracer is a huge QoL upgrade, definitely a must-have, unlike the gloves.

Oh, on your recommendation I got a BFG this summer too, definitely a really fun toy although I haven't yet figured out when it's appropriate to use. So far I've mostly broken it out for epic fights with disc, and it doesn't eat as many arrows as I feared. That and using the clicky whenever a friend is trying to hammer off me :)

Hell ya! Nice pickup :)

Depending on you MH weapon it isn’t horrible just to feed with Tolan arrows for non-rooted targets. I did that with Avatar once on Vindi and got killed from pulling aggro at 75dps lol.

Really it’s just fun to have about 5 stacks of 8dmg fletched arrows on you. Some situations bump is a game changer, sometimes you just need to roleplay as a rogue for 2 minutes. Confusing people on the parse is worth the arrow crafting annoyance.

[sammoHung]

All of these are great points as to why monk is the best solo melee.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

More mana not go out longer.

Spend zero mana via clickies when applicable, mana not go out longer. Spending zero mana is a great way to avoid going OOM.

Fungi Tunic recovers 15 HP/Tick. Eye of Cazic Thule is 1 Mana/tick. Spending some HP to avoid spending mana is often worth the price when you have mana issues and aren't meditating.

[sammoHung]

Monk does great solo and is always OOM

[Snaggles]

More mana not go out longer.

So just extending the time between med breaks? In the dumb Geo situation, every 600 mana buys you about 4 greater healings (almost 1100 hps) and potentially one more Geo to kill before a med break.

Functionally it’s just more mana you can buff a raid with and still have more than fumes in the rank for combat stuff. It sucks to give a bunch of people CoTP and realize you have maybe 2 jolts left for the fight.

I’m definitely not against it. Just lower on the priorities.

[sammoHung]

Monk doesn't have to buff anyone on raid. Again, you guys are really putting monks up on a pedestal here - and the class deserves it.

[Snaggles]

Monk doesn't have to buff anyone on raid. Again, you guys are really putting monks up on a pedestal here - and the class deserves it.

My ranger beats a lot of monks on the parse even off-disc.
Monks can’t use a 10dkp Primal axe.

[Cecily]

My ranger beats a lot of monks on the parse even off-disc.
Monks can’t use a 10dkp Primal axe.

A big selling point for monk is they can't equip that ugly thing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

My ranger beats a lot of monks on the parse even off-disc.
Monks can’t use a 10dkp Primal axe.

Cheap 2h primals are great. I always feel bad for classes bottlenecked to primal brawl stick or 1h weapons. At least they improved the drop rate of 1h primals.

[bcbrown]

Hell ya! Nice pickup :)

Depending on you MH weapon it isn’t horrible just to feed with Tolan arrows for non-rooted targets. I did that with Avatar once on Vindi and got killed from pulling aggro at 75dps lol.

Really it’s just fun to have about 5 stacks of 8dmg fletched arrows on you. Some situations bump is a game changer, sometimes you just need to roleplay as a rogue for 2 minutes. Confusing people on the parse is worth the arrow crafting annoyance.

Wait, I was equipping BFG mainhand and Swiftwind offhand, given my weapon choices isn't that the optimal way to use it? And the first time I used it I had no idea how many arrows it would eat, so I think I summoned like 20-30 stacks. Now knowing how many it eats I can see using it more regularly on raids or groups when there's enough downtime between pulls for summoning.

I used it against Brother Z earlier and almost died from pulling aggro. Don't think I had Jolt up so I just turned off autoattack, and waited for some heals and the warrior getting aggro back. I beat the rogue on the parse too, but that's because he pulled aggro too and took a dirt nap. I guess I can take the fact that we both pulled aggro but he died and I didn't as vindication for gearing for AC :)


Tolans gloves are cheap. You should try them out instead of simply ignoring them. Again it is easy to show their utility with evidence, if you are willing to learn something.

Lol, no. Maybe if you played a ranger you'd understand why they're worthless.

[Cecily]

Did you watch the video where he agro kited using a pet and only his blood ember gloves?!

[sammoHung]

My ranger beats a lot of monks on the parse even off-disc.
Monks can’t use a 10dkp Primal axe.

Shovel of the harvest better weapon anyway. Or Facesmasher. Oh yeah, and triple attack.

[bcbrown]

Did you watch the video where he agro kited using a pet and only his blood ember gloves?!

No, but I once watched a video of a druid aggro kiting a cliff golem with flame lick and a charm pet, that was pretty cool.

[sammoHung]

Monks will spend all their DKP on a primal 2hb and still not know how to split a pair of mobs. Monks don't even need weapons. They don't need armor. All they need is hutzpah and level 60

[Cecily]

I guess they used a high level cat. That's awesome.

[shovelquest]

I do love a min max clicky fight that you realize, "hmm if i do this for 2hrs without fucking up i can win this fight!"

[Cecily]

Shovel of the harvest better weapon anyway. Or Facesmasher. Oh yeah, and triple attack.

Bostaff tbh.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol, no. Maybe if you played a ranger you'd understand why they're worthless.

I'd love to hear why you think they are worthless. You can land them at max cast range before the mob reaches you, they cost zero mana, generate agro when needed, and you'll get more mana back if you are doing the trick where you med a tick after a snare cast. Plus you save a spell slot on snare.

Plenty of obvious benefits. You don't need to play a Ranger to understand basic P99 mechanics that are cross-class.

[Cecily]

They're not worthless.

Vendors pay like 489 platinum for them.

[bcbrown]

I'd love to hear why you think they are worthless. You can land them at max cast range before the mob reaches you, they cost zero mana, generate agro when needed, and you'll get more mana back if you are doing the trick where you med a tick after a snare cast. Plus you save a spell slot on snare.

You went to the trouble of digging up my Magelo and counting how many items had wisdom or mana, and you can't figure it out?

And Cecily's right, I shouldn't have said worthless. Vendors pay good money for them!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You went to the trouble of digging up my Magelo and counting how many items had wisdom or mana, and you can't figure it out?

And Cecily's right, I shouldn't have said worthless. Vendors pay good money for them!

Both yourself and Cecily have Rangers, and can't even explain basic Ranger clickies.

This doesn't help your argument from authority fallacy. But thanks for helping my argument by showing you can't counter my points!

[Snaggles]

Wait, I was equipping BFG mainhand and Swiftwind offhand, given my weapon choices isn't that the optimal way to use it? And the first time I used it I had no idea how many arrows it would eat, so I think I summoned like 20-30 stacks. Now knowing how many it eats I can see using it more regularly on raids or groups when there's enough downtime between pulls for summoning.

I used it against Brother Z earlier and almost died from pulling aggro. Don't think I had Jolt up so I just turned off autoattack, and waited for some heals and the warrior getting aggro back. I beat the rogue on the parse too, but that's because he pulled aggro too and took a dirt nap. I guess I can take the fact that we both pulled aggro but he died and I didn't as vindication for gearing for AC :)


Ohh no, you are doing it right. I just meant if you don’t have at least a Kreiz Flame or a NTOV 2h it’s likely more damage on some targets just to melee off-disc. With a couple big bow crits it can punch above its weight class.

DSM, mana cheap aggro truly is the least of the class’ worry. Between Call of Fire, DW and flame lick I don’t think a bane wizard could peel off a ranger…for the 20 seconds they stayed alive.

[bcbrown]

Both yourself and Cecily have Rangers, and can't even explain basic Ranger clickies.

This doesn't help your argument from authority fallacy. But thanks for helping my argument by showing you can't counter my points!

Do you think Blerv should swap out Gauntlets of Dragon Slaying for tolan gloves? Do you think Zalea should swap out Twisted Steel Gauntlets?

And take another look at my Magelo and maybe you'll understand why they'd be a downgrade for me too.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ohh no, you are doing it right. I just meant if you don’t have at least a Kreiz Flame or a NTOV 2h it’s likely more damage on some targets just to melee off-disc. With a couple big bow crits it can punch above its weight class.

DSM, mana cheap aggro truly is the least of the class’ worry. Between Call of Fire, DW and flame lick I don’t think a bane wizard could peel off a ranger…for the 20 seconds they stayed alive.

I didn't say it was a major worry. Cecily is saying he is running OOM in groups after leveling 3 Rangers to 60.

Clearly he is having mana problems, and clickies help with mana problems.

I just find it odd that people are disagreeing with this basic concept for many pages.

Do you think Blerv should swap out Gauntlets of Dragon Slaying for tolan gloves? Do you think Zalea should swap out Twisted Steel Gauntlets?

And take another look at my Magelo and maybe you'll understand why they'd be a downgrade for me too.

I don't think anybody said to permanentally wear them. On my SK I just swap out my BE Gloves once I am done clicking. It's not hard to do.

[Cecily]

Both yourself and Cecily have Rangers, and can't even explain basic Ranger clickies.
Which part were you having trouble with?

You equip the item and right click it, wait 4 seconds, and save 15 mana.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Which part were you having trouble with?

You equip the item and right click it, wait 4 seconds, and save 15 mana.

That is a great deal for someone like yourself when you are running out of mana by casting 10 mana spells. You spend zero mana on the initial agro transfer before the mob reaches you, and you may not need to cast as many flame licks.

[sammoHung]

Tolan's gloves and Elder Spiritst Gloves are pootrash. Long cast time for a spell that is a very low mana cost as is.