If you believe in god, you're an idiot...

[chtulu]

You also believe the world is only 6,000 years old and think evolution is a conspiracy theory against Jesus.

[AexDestroy]

IN before someone cares

[chtulu]

If it's about God, some retard will care.

[AexDestroy]

Well This thread is about god... and you seem to care...

[chtulu]

Of course I care. I would love to be able to abolish religion.

[bizzum]

Quickly building your reputation, eh?

[chtulu]

So being atheist is a bad thing?

[bizzum]

So being atheist is a bad thing?

Negative. Being a biggoting atheist is a bad thing.

Also posting a this frequently in R&F (Yes, I understand I'm being hypocritical)

[bizzum]

Fuck no edit button to correct my typo. Now I look like a retard!

[chtulu]

Ironic you call me a bigot for wanting to see religion. Ironic in the sense that Religion creates, condones, and encourages intolerance in so far as to call for genocides and oppression.

[chtulu]

wanting to see religion done away with*

[bizzum]

Sigh.

In the true sense of the word, you are being a bigot though. No need to attempt to justify your means by saying that the other is bad, we already know you don't like it. You can continue, I tire of posting in this worthless thread.

[chtulu]

u tired bro?

[quido]

Genocide is just natural selection at work!! We don't have much natural selection here in the Western world =(

[chtulu]

I didn't know hitler played a shaman!

[Nuggie]

Can't we all just sit around the camp fire and love one another?

[chtulu]

a/s/l?

[Slathar]

worst troll ever

[Harrison]

worst troll ever

Irony

[Slathar]

Irony

except i dont troll i just tell the truth you snaggled toothed type 2 diabetes having gunbitch

[Xanzinder]

You also believe the world is only 6,000 years old and think evolution is a conspiracy theory against Jesus.


You truly are a fucking idiot aren't you. What does the belief in a god have to do with believing the world is only 6000 years old, or in Jesus?

[Slathar]

You truly are a fucking idiot aren't you. What does the belief in a god have to do with believing the world is only 6000 years old, or in Jesus?

hahahahahha you poor bastard

[Daldolma]

If you believe you definitively know whether or not a God exists, to the extent that you could tell another person "the truth", you are an idiot that lacks the ability to think critically.

There's belief and there's non-belief. There's no "knowledge" to be had on the subject.

[john_savage1982]

There is a word I currently use...for all of you...people. You people type in the same "I'm intelligent, I know things, I'm above religion, blah blah blah...I mock the world cause I'm insecure" tone yet most of you probably attended something like a second or third tier state college (or never attended college) and read book from people like Richard Dawkins while thinking "I'm so logical and above the rest and if people don't agree with me then they must be wrong." If you didn't attend college you've probably invented reasons like "I'm anti-establishment" to justify why you have any semblance of legitimate knowledge.

The funny part is while most of you denounce religion and go on about ideas of science/logic/evolution/whatever, most of you probably have just as vague idea about the intricacies of these subjects as you do about the intricacies of religion. This is perhaps the saddest part in all of this. The come back here will be "I have a degree in blah blah blah, I know things." All I will do is laugh if I see them.

There is a difference between religion and the organization/politics surrounding religion. Further, while you stand firm against religion, you might not realize that ideas of morality in the western world is strongly based in judeo-christian ethics. Call whatever your idea of morality whatever you want - it's likely most of these ideas are rooted in religion. Consider - why be moral? State will punish you if you don't? If you stop yourself from being immoral - what brings you to act correctly? What you call "I am in control of my mind, i do what is right, blah blah blah," I happen to call "indoctrination by the state." The stat ein return gets the indoctrinating ideas from religion.

Now, the word I call you folk. Neckbeards. You're all god dang neckbeards. Full of yourselves yet total idiots.

[IMG]http://pugetsoundblogs.com/bremertonbeat/files/2008/10

[john_savage1982]

http://pugetsoundblogs.com/bremertonbeat/files/2008/10/neckbeardihazit.jpg

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

Haw! The intricacies of religion. Good one. Simple point being made is that there is no logical reason to believe in magic. That's what video games are for. You really think you're gonna live forever? Get ready for disappointment.
I also love when people make the argument that ethical philosophy somehow depends on theology. "If you don't believe in god, then what stops you from being a sociopath? I know I'd be a sociopath if I wasn't worried about God! Luckily I'm also scared of going to jail... but if there were no cops and no god I'd stab you in the face for disagreeing with me!" Durp. You can't see any reason for ethical behavior outside a religious context?

[Noser]

In before young atheist?

[Harrison]

If you believe you definitively know whether or not a God exists, to the extent that you could tell another person "the truth", you are an idiot that lacks the ability to think critically.

There's belief and there's non-belief. There's no "knowledge" to be had on the subject.

/thread

[mitic]

"religion is the opium of the people"
(karl marx 1843/44, german philosopher, political economist, historian, political theorist, sociologist, and communist revolutionary)

"believers of any religion are just too lazy to think"
(mitic 2010, everquest ranger)

[zenoo]

You guys need to read some Philosophy books on this subject before pretending to have come to any sort of meaningful conclusion, whether you are an atheist or a theist.

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

What conclusions are you referring to Zenoo? Are you suggesting that footnoting posts is the only way for an argument therein to have validity? Whats your point?

[Harrison]

The epitome of ignorance is to claim you know the purpose, or lack thereof, for existence. The presence of a God, Gods, or the lack of such presence is well beyond our means of finding out.

To claim otherwise is fucking retarded. That goes for atheists and theists of every sort.

To say you believe in either case, is wholly different and acceptable.

But, to say you know? You'd be a moron of epic proportions hiding behind a laughable mask of self-proclaimed intellect.

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

To say you believe in either case, is wholly different and acceptable.



Belief is sacred! It was written long ago that the opinions of every person are always legitimate no matter what. People are free to believe whatever they want about the world and nothing ever gives another person the right to say about the beliefs of another, "You should not believe that "X" is the case." Some people may point out that, "beliefs are simply things that you think are true about the world, and truth claims are always to be based on evidence in the world around us." But that's crazy! My beliefs are unchallengeable!

[skulldudes]

i remember when i was a hardline, aggressive atheist

















back when i was 12

now i'm just a cool dude (read: not annoying) atheist

[fischsemmel]

WHY DO THEY CALL IT AN XBOX 360?! CAUSE WHEN YOU SEE IT, YOU DO A 360 AND WALK AWAY!!!


LOLOLOLWOWTRADECHAT!!!!RELIGIONHITLERGEARSCORENWOR D!!!!!!!

[Tudana]

I heard God has phat L3wtz

[chtulu]

Richard Dawkins on a few questions about religion, science and where he he'd like to see both in the future (as well as some clips of hate mail!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vueDC69jRjE&feature=player_embedded

Trailer for 8: The Mormon Proposition (for the people that feel that religion should just be left alone and that it does good for the world and should be respected simply because it's been around for thousands of years)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezwIZo-hKiI

Barry Schwartz, and leader in the study of psychology, on the topic of the paradox of Choice/Free Will.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO6XEQIsCoM&feature=channel

Richard Dawkins on why God can be interchangeable with any imaginary creature.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yr4gpuyC_4

Richard Dawkins on evolution (for you mouth breathers that try to use intelligent design rhetoric, and propaganda).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhDWCujcFEY

Ricahrd Dawkins speaking at Berkely explaining what would happen if Science worked like religion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYigmGyN2RQ

An easy way to prove God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rqUsC2KsiI&feature=related

Richard Dawkins on a debate panel about Religion in schools, in Europe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-S7M0KZTsU

Richard Dawkins documentary part 1 of 5: The God Delusion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVr9bJ8Sctk

Top leading religious scholars argument for a God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZFG5PKw504


over 70% of people in the U.S.A. are Christian. Even more are religious. Only a fraction are atheist today. Consider this fact and know that the only other countries this religious are in the Middle East. Explain to me why we are so proud to be a country of God?

People would rather vote for any other minority in the world, and trust them, then to vote for anyone who claims to be atheist. People are threatened by us more than any political belief, or extremist. Why is that? American citizens, as a fact, have more common ground with Extremist Muslim terrorists then their own country-men who are educated and are humanists.

Before anyone tries to make dispute my arguments using fallacious statements like " LOL U LEIK RICHARD DAWKINS HOMO?", I will try to quash the idea. He is what a lot of people will consider a spokes-person for Atheism. Just recently have people been "coming out" with their stance against God. Many people are afraid of persecution and alienation by claiming their atheist. It's far more dangerous now a days to not believe in a God than to be a homo sexual, black man or any other minority in this country.

[Harrison]

Your stupidity is staggering.

Homosexual is one word.
Stop hyphenating shit to appear well-spoken. It isn't working.(See what I did there?)
Their != They're
Spokesperson is one word, unhyphenated.
Countrymen is one word, unhyphenated.

"Before anyone tries to make dispute my arguments..."? That abortion of a sentence should have been deleted much the same as you should have been.

That's just you trying to communicate and not even touching the other obvious reasons why you're a blithering idiot, such as spewing youtube videos as a form of argument. *facepalm*

[Harrison]

P.S.

I am an agnostic. I do not claim to know, believe, or otherwise put stock in the existence or non-existence(lol-u-dumb) of a deity or deities. It is impossible to prove or disprove.

P.P.S.

You're dumb.

[chtulu]

You derive your argument based on my grammar errors at 4 in the morning, on a forum where you can not edit your post for errors?

This is the typical theist strategy. Ignore what was said, and cherry pick any weakness in the argument, no matter how relevant it is. Just because you're "agnostic" doesn't mean jack shit to me. Logically, there are more reasons why there God probably doesn't exist than why he should.

[chtulu]

Also, the fact that you put "lol u dumb" after believing in no god as opposed to A god leads me to belief that you DO belief in some imaginary friend, have some kind of emotional investment in the matter, and are actually quite hostile to anyone who says otherwise.

[Harrison]

The "lol-u-dumb" was a play on your tendency to hyphenate words that aren't hyphenated. You are so fucking dumb it's painful to watch you flail about in an attempt to debate. Though, it is equally as amusing too.

[Harrison]

I eagerly await more "pseudo-intellectual" wannabe additions to this thread by the time I get back from work.

I have to put it in quotations or you won't get the fact that I am insulting you. Seeing as you completely missed the fucking point the first time...

[chtulu]

I have stated my points and arguments as well as a person can still up in the early morning. You, however, have done nothing but use ad hominems to try to make yourself look better, but without actually having to explain your stance on the subject, other than you like to come in and out of threads arguing using typical, and unoriginal fallacies.

Simply put, you're a B rated troll at best.

[chtulu]

Your attempt of derailing my thread has failed. We are talking about religion, and the ignorant bastards who still belief in superstition and think that morals came from some higher power and think that the church does good using morbid logic.

[Hoggen]

I think Cthulhu is right. I think Jared Loughner should be the poster boy for how we all should think, i.e. get really mad that no one else believes what we do, think we know better than everyone else, ignore reality, and rail about what other people believe and buy guns.

[chtulu]

I fear the majority of people who play this game are severely over estimated when it comes to basic understanding and critical thinking. Between Mr. Cowboy with this big of manly rifle and Hoggen, I can't really blame the world for looking down on North America.

[chtulu]

Hoggen, I'd love to hear how you tied a sociopath, guns, and reality in with anything I've argued.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that all these responses are knee jerk reactions and neither you or Harrison have ever done any research in the matter or looked at any of my links.

[Hoggen]

Hoggen, I'd love to hear how you tied a sociopath, guns, and reality in with anything I've argued.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that all these responses are knee jerk reactions and neither you or Harrison have ever done any research in the matter or looked at any of my links.

I didn't see an argument. I saw an attention-whore with no critical thinking skills that believes he is intelligent flailing about in public and I was bored, so I commented.

[chtulu]

I didn't see an argument. I saw an attention-whore with no critical thinking skills that believes he is intelligent flailing about in public and I was bored, so I commented.

Ironic?

[chtulu]

Nah, just hypocritical.

[Hoggen]

I didn' start the thread. I'm sure I won't end it. How is that ironic?

[Uberom]

except i dont troll i just tell the truth you snaggled toothed type 2 diabetes having gunbitch

Rofl. I'm going to sit this one out. That shit was funny.

[Hoggen]

I fear the majority of people who play this game are severely over estimated when it comes to basic understanding and critical thinking. Between Mr. Cowboy with this big of manly rifle and Hoggen, I can't really blame the world for looking down on North America.

If you need it spelled out in bone crushingly boring detail to understand, I'll try:

1. No one cares what you believe.
2. You pull things out of your ass regularly and expect people to think this makes you knowledgeable.
3. You assume anyone tries to "estimate" the thinking abilities of people who play Everquest. Most people just look at people that play Everquest and say " what pathetic losers." They don't care how smart they are.
4. Your understanding of foreigners perceptions of North America seems to be really stupid. First of all, how many foreigners look at North America as a single unit? That's like someone looking down on Africa, or Eurasia, or any other broad geographical region. Do you realize how retarded that statement is? Obviously not.
5. You don't know the meaning of ironic.
6. You can't read minds, as you obviously would know that I don't care who reads this other than you, whereas you obviously seem to care a lot about who reads your posts.
7. If you need explanation of my first post in the thread, here goes:
a. Jared Loughner is an avowed atheist.
b. Jared Loughner is a nut job that thinks 6 is 18 and says things like "what use is government if words have no meaning?"
c. The reality of the matter is people with religious beliefs don't give a crap what you think and everyone else knows you are just spouting crap to get noticed.
d. Other people's beliefs obviously upset you, as do people disagreeing with you. Jared Loughner went apeshit for the same reasons and shot up alot of people.


Ok, so my comment was over the top and an overreaction to typical adolescent ravings of a self-proclaimed omniscient. So this entry is an escalation fo said over the toppness. I have to get up early to take my meds and can't get back to sleep immediately so I read the daily wisdom of the forums for the game I almost never play and I come across your twittedness. My apologies.

[VictoryARC]

"Allied Atheist Alliance! It has three As, therefore it is most logical!"

[Chanus]

Science damn you!

[Akame]

You also believe the world is only 6,000 years old and think evolution is a conspiracy theory against Jesus.

Believing in God, and believing in a 6000 year old earth is like saying if you believe in God you MUST believe in one specific type of theology, it's one seriously cheap ass complaint against Christianity that idiots like to use to try and trip up believers with a kindergarten Sunday school knowledge of the Bible.

If you did any study on this topic at ALL before you posted your ignorant statement you would know that the original Hebrew and Greek word used for the term DAY as in "and on the sixth Day God created...." Has two different uses, one for a 24 hour period of time and one for an indefinite period of time.

There is a very large community of believers that believe in the indirect translation, and it is usually considered either belief in Old Earth or New Earth, and neither belief contradicts the Bible or Christian faith.

[Akame]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3117&t=KJV

There you go, my young theology student, there is a direct link to the specific Hebrew word defining that to be day, time, year, lifetime, always, continually, and so on; all reused in the Bible itself as those alternate words in today's translations.

It's kinda crazy, but zomg! Faith in God and creation as *directly transcribed* from the Bible, does not actually contradict scientific findings of an Old Earth! Who'd a thunk it!

[Chanus]

If there's one thing that believing in God or not believing in God has taught us, it's that, as we near the 20th anniversary of what we commonly know as the Internet, people are still dumb enough to debate a topic where neither side has the ability to know the truth.

[Peatree]

...I wonder if there is a time that every atheist asks, "What if I'm wrong?"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ndIAhnkPV28/TKzJLmYT4ZI/AAAAAAAACHM/bdU3eQJ16_U/s400/atheist_tombstone.jpg

[redbandit]

Ironic in the sense that Religion creates, condones, and encourages intolerance in so far as to call for genocides and oppression. Religion doesnt do that, people do that. I have read nowhere in the new testament where is says jesus wants you to do ANYTHING besides love, care for, and be kind to everyone. Also to try to avoid things that you know are wrong and have faith. Ever hear of the saying "too much of a good thing"? Fanaticism in anything creates intolerance and anger. MOST religions talk about peace love and respect for everyone, but fanatics (see what i did there, talking about fanaticism then calling the people with a particular hate for people who dont believe what they do, like yourself, fanatics?) tend to believe so strongly, so above and beyond the call of duty, that they actually start to ignore what it is they believe in to turn everyone else to what they claim they love and follow. Of course if you believe nothing, your just being a dickface for no good reason.

[Timzilla]

Pretty weak troll. Useless.

[Chanus]

Paul had some pretty fucked up things to say about women.

[redbandit]

Paul isnt jesus, thank god, from what ive read, not in the bible but more by scholars, paul was insane. Nobody else would have him in their church so he went off and made his own that was anti gay and anti women. I am not a bible scholar, i dont claim that little bit there for fact, but it doesnt seem to mesh well with the rest of the bibles message of love and care. "We love and care for you, but not if you like cock, but, we only want cocks in our church" seems to be pauls message.

[john_savage1982]

Neckbeard

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3343/3481129503_f1e2e9e664.jpg

I'm so logical because somehow I"m special for noticing that religion is "illogical and stupid"

In reference to the person attacking my (supposed) argument that you must believe in god to be moral. Let me ask - where does your sense of morality come from? Why do you choose to have certain morals? How do you logically justify not killing/stealing/raping/acting in whichever way pleases you at the time. "But we have laws". Did you ever wonder why these laws are the way they are? It seems people put down the stupidity of the past quite often but then don't realize that the basis of the laws for the US ad western countries comes from christian morality. It's more fanatical to me to believe that somehow humans are naturally born with a certain moral system.

In case people haven't realized, one of the goals of the state is to indoctrinate the moral code. It's easier and better to have people that are conditioned not to want to commit certain acts then for people to only not offend out of fear of punishment. So while you pretend that all your thoughts/feelings are uniquely yours, just consider to what lengths your social world has constructed you.

Then you might realize that your denial of god is irrelevant, the state accomplished its task by instilling in you the necessary sacred code of morality.



On a further note it's actually interesting the reasons people use to justify why they don't believe in god. What stirs people to profess such disgust with this concept of a god?

[RocketMoose]

over 70% of people in the U.S.A. are Christian. Even more are religious. Only a fraction are atheist today. Consider this fact and know that the only other countries this religious are in the Middle East. Explain to me why we are so proud to be a country of God?

The fact that you believe this just shows how ignorant you are. Can't get mad at someone for being ignorant, it's not really your fault that you've never been taught. Much like your lack of ability when it comes to English. That's something we can't really be mad at you for, it's the school's fault right?

This only further proves everything I already thought about you.

This is much along the lines of "Bards can't CC" right? Keep rockin that Painbringer, you're the only warrior who knows what's up man.

[RocketMoose]

Paul isnt jesus, thank god, from what ive read, not in the bible but more by scholars, paul was insane. Nobody else would have him in their church so he went off and made his own that was anti gay and anti women. I am not a bible scholar, i dont claim that little bit there for fact, but it doesnt seem to mesh well with the rest of the bibles message of love and care. "We love and care for you, but not if you like cock, but, we only want cocks in our church" seems to be pauls message.

Seriously, that's what you boil it down to? What a sick, sad, little man you are.

God isn't against the person that is acting out the role of a homosexual, he's against the act of homosexuality. We could get into it on this topic as well I'm sure. But it comes down to sin is sin, wrong is wrong. It's not that homosexuality is something that can't be forgiven, it's not 'worse' than harboring hatred in your heart, or lying. It's just something that is more...bizarre, to most people.

It's also not Anti-woman. It's Anti-women in leadership roles, and why is that? Because they aren't logical creatures, they act based on emotion. I know I'm going to catch flak for that statement, but people need to realize that not EVERY person fits into general statements. I'm not saying EVERY woman is incapable of thinking critically. It's not even their fault, but there are certain times that hormones get all out of whack in females, that's just part of nature. Anyway, He's not anti-women, not at all. In fact husbands are called to love their wives like Christ loves the church, which is something he gave his life up for, so you tell me if that's Anti-woman or not.

[Chanus]

It's also not Anti-woman. It's Anti-women in leadership roles, and why is that? Because they aren't logical creatures, they act based on emotion. I know I'm going to catch flak for that statement

Probably because it's a fucking ignorant statement.

[Kassel]

5. You don't know the meaning of ironic.

Is it like a free ride when your already late?

[mirko]

WHY DO THEY CALL IT AN XBOX 360?! CAUSE WHEN YOU SEE IT, YOU DO A 360 AND WALK AWAY!!!


LOLOLOLWOWTRADECHAT!!!!RELIGIONHITLERGEARSCORENWOR D!!!!!!!

hmm actually if you saw it and did a 360 you would still be looking at it

[Chanus]

No, you saw it behind you in a mirror.

[Hoggen]

Is it like a free ride when your already late?

Bingo. To add to the irony, you would have to add the word "too" between already and late... something which AM failed to do as it didn't fit her idea of rythmic/melodic sensibility.

[Chanus]

Being "too late" is redundant. Late is late.

It would be ironic if she had refused the ride for want of being able to afford it, only to find out it had been free the entire time and would have gotten her to her destination before whatever implied event expired.

[Slathar]

fat neckbeards debating religion on an mmorpg message board you say? im sure this will be an intelligent and fruitful gathering of mature minds.

whats hilarious is the guy who failed at trolling citing richard dawkings repeatedly. now go watch bill hicks clips on youtube and wear your fuckin fedora to wendy's while smoking clove cigarettes.

[Hoggen]

Being "too late" is redundant. Late is late.

It would be ironic if she had refused the ride for want of being able to afford it, only to find out it had been free the entire time and would have gotten her to her destination before whatever implied event expired.

No, because many instances allow for someone to complete a task "late." "Too late" is a situation where there is no possibility of completing said task.

Example: you get to work "late" and they dock you a portion of your pay or make you work late to make up for it.

Example 2: McGyver is about to diffuse the bomb when it blows him and his friends up.

One is late. Two is too late.

[Chanus]

No, because many instances allow for someone to complete a task "late." "Too late" is a situation where there is no possibility of completing said task.

Example: you get to work "late" and they dock you a portion of your pay or make you work late to make up for it.

Example 2: McGyver is about to diffuse the bomb when it blows him and his friends up.

One is late. Two is too late.

One is moving the goalposts.

You're late to work, you didn't get to work on time. Your pay being docked or whatever punishment is the consequence. Just because you can continue to be at work after you're late doesn't change that fact.

Regardless, you're addition of "too" to the line doesn't make it ironic.

[Chanus]

*your addition... damn it.

[Theldios]

over 70% of people in the U.S.A. are Christian. Even more are religious. Only a fraction are atheist today. Consider this fact and know that the only other countries this religious are in the Middle East. .

I want to know where you get this so called "fact" from
Because in central and south america the population is 90% catholic the rest is "other" So to say that Fact only the middle east is as religious as the U.S.A. is really kind of ignorant.

Many many many contries are just as or more religious than the U.S.A.

[xshayla701]

1. No one cares what you believe.



It's also not Anti-woman. It's Anti-women in leadership roles, and why is that? Because they aren't logical creatures, they act based on emotion. I know I'm going to catch flak for that statement, but people need to realize that not EVERY person fits into general statements. I'm not saying EVERY woman is incapable of thinking critically. It's not even their fault, but there are certain times that hormones get all out of whack in females, that's just part of nature.

LOL not even gonna give you the time of day

[guineapig]

If you believe in god, you're an idiot...
You also believe the world is only 6,000 years old and think evolution is a conspiracy theory against Jesus.You also believe the world is only 6,000 years old and think evolution is a conspiracy theory against Jesus.

You are really pigeonholing your anti-religion statement to a small subset of Christianity with your opening statement. This statement excludes catholics, most of the more modern thinking Christian sects, and of course most of the non-christian religions.

And what does evolution have to do with a guy named Jesus? :confused:

[nalkin]

LOL not even gonna give you the time of day

ya just did b

[Daldolma]

1- At this point in time, it is impossible for a human being to *know* whether or not a God exists. This is not debatable.

2- Many of the phenomenon attributed to God -- the creation of the Universe, the creation of life, the conditions of the Earth -- are essentially unknowable. The Big Bang Theory is no more viable than God, and it isn't even incompatible with a belief in God.

3- From a standpoint of logic, there is no difference between the belief in extraterrestrial life and the belief in God. Both represent beliefs founded on little to no factual evidence. I find it ironic that in the case of hardline atheists, many dismiss even the faintest possibility of a God, while accepting general scientific consensus that there are lifeforms elsewhere in the Universe. Why is that? Humans are completely ignorant on both subjects. We are smaller than ants on a universal scale. We don't know how rare life is. It's entirely possible that Earth is the only planet in the universe harboring complex lifeforms; in fact, that's what all tangible evidence would point to. But if we can agree that our "evidence" is vastly deficient in discussing lifeforms elsewhere in the universe, then surely our "evidence" -- or lack thereof -- regarding a Creator is entirely too incomplete to issue any kind of conclusive statement.

4- Religion is no more responsible for the atrocities of history than government (Nazi Germany, Stalin's Soviet Union) or science (guns, mines, napalm, nuclear weaponry). The fact is, all three are tools which provide power -- and power can be used for great good, or abused for great evil. Religion has become the whipping boy because these days, it's the least necessary.

[Tovin]

One is moving the goalposts.

You're late to work, you didn't get to work on time. Your pay being docked or whatever punishment is the consequence. Just because you can continue to be at work after you're late doesn't change that fact.

Regardless, you're addition of "too" to the line doesn't make it ironic.You guys realize the lyric is "It's a free ride when you've already paid." and not "It's a free ride when you're already late." ???

[Chanus]

No, because I don't listen to shit music :P

[Kassel]

It's like rain on your wedding day

[Chanus]

It's like rain on your wedding day

If you live in Seattle but had your wedding in Phoenix to avoid said rain, and it turns out it didn't rain in Seattle.

[RocketMoose]

LOL not even gonna give you the time of day

Case in point

[RocketMoose]

Probably because it's a fucking ignorant statement.

And you obviously stopped reading there. Good luck in life

I bet you were always that kid when the teacher passed out the sheet that said "read all the directions first" just jumped into doing the sheet, instead of reading it where the last 'task' was to, put your pencil down on your desk and skip all of the other 'tasks'

Fail = you.

[xshayla701]

Case in point

haha

[Chanus]

And you obviously stopped reading there. Good luck in life

I bet you were always that kid when the teacher passed out the sheet that said "read all the directions first" just jumped into doing the sheet, instead of reading it where the last 'task' was to, put your pencil down on your desk and skip all of the other 'tasks'

Fail = you.

Uh, no. I read your post.

You're ignorant.

Claiming females are slaves to their hormones is ignorant.

You are ignorant.

Fuckwit.

[RocketMoose]

Uh, no. I read your post.

You're ignorant.

Claiming females are slaves to their hormones is ignorant.

You are ignorant.

Fuckwit.

umadbrew?

Ignorant by definition: lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact

Claiming that females are NOT slaves to their emotions is just foolish and wrong. Their hormone levels especially at a certain time of month are in a state of flux that they have no control over. They cry, and they don't know why, they get mad at stuff that normally doesn't bother them. Claiming this is false just proves how much you know...which based on your understanding of the word...ignorant...isn't much.

[Chanus]

Do you even know what a hormone is?

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

This thread is awful. If people want to believe in magic even though there is no compelling reason, let them.

[chtulu]

I like how people use " we can't prove there is a God....YET! But there is" arguments like it makes their superstitions any more valid than the polytheist ideas or anything equally is crazy. So if it can't be be proven than it MUST exist? If that was the case, I could interject that there is a magical tea pot floating in our solar system. Of course, it's too small to see and would never be able to be proven, but since we are using this logic, why can't my belief in the tea pot be any less valid than your man in the sky?

A good quote comes to mind here from Stephen Roberts, "I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

[Chanus]

I like how people use " we can't prove there is a God....YET! But there is" arguments like it makes their superstitions any more valid than the polytheist ideas or anything equally is crazy. So if it can't be be proven than it MUST exist? If that was the case, I could interject that there is a magical tea pot floating in our solar system. Of course, it's too small to see and would never be able to be proven, but since we are using this logic, why can't my belief in the tea pot be any less valid than your man in the sky?

A good quote comes to mind here from Stephen Roberts, "I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

The point is that there are exactly as many facts indicating the existence of a god as there are facts indicating the non-existence of a god.

The disagreement is pointless and needlessly polarizing, and lately the atheist movement has become just as bigoted and unnecessarily hostile as theist movements have been in the past.

Why can't all the wonders of mathematics and physical sciences be our way of observing and understanding the work of a god? Why must there not be a god for there to be truth behind scientific explanations of life, existence, and the universe.

Why can't these concepts coexist?

Believing in Calabi-Yau space is exactly the same as believing in a deity, and we don't (yet) have the ability to disprove either.

[boboo]

To me biblical/Muslim/jewish gods are transparently absurd.

If there are muslim colonists going to Gliese 581G in 400 years, i bet they will have to make sure that Gliesians understand that eating pigs makes our loving god angry. Oh wait, i bet theres no pigs on Gliese 581G. I bet you cant fuck people in the ass either.

[chtulu]

The point is that there are exactly as many facts indicating the existence of a god as there are facts indicating the non-existence of a god.

The disagreement is pointless and needlessly polarizing, and lately the atheist movement has become just as bigoted and unnecessarily hostile as theist movements have been in the past.

Why can't all the wonders of mathematics and physical sciences be our way of observing and understanding the work of a god? Why must there not be a god for there to be truth behind scientific explanations of life, existence, and the universe.

Why can't these concepts coexist?

Believing in Calabi-Yau space is exactly the same as believing in a deity, and we don't (yet) have the ability to disprove either.


The lack of proof of something does not exist is not evidence of its existence. Tell me, why do YOU think these "facts" are that proves an existence of a god?

[Chanus]

The lack of proof of something does not exist is not evidence of its existence. Tell me, why do YOU think these "facts" are that proves an existence of a god?

I never stated I believe there are facts that prove the existence of a god.

And while your first sentence is an oft-quoted axiom, it has no relevance to what I wrote either.

Are you able to read?

[chtulu]

The point is that there are exactly as many facts indicating the existence of a god as there are facts indicating the non-existence of a god.

The disagreement is pointless and needlessly polarizing, and lately the atheist movement has become just as bigoted and unnecessarily hostile as theist movements have been in the past.

Why can't all the wonders of mathematics and physical sciences be our way of observing and understanding the work of a god? Why must there not be a god for there to be truth behind scientific explanations of life, existence, and the universe.

Why can't these concepts coexist?

Believing in Calabi-Yau space is exactly the same as believing in a deity, and we don't (yet) have the ability to disprove either.

[chtulu]

as i just quoted, what are these FACTS indicating god exists? If you give me the emotional " look at the beauty of our earth" type response, i'll slap you.

[Chanus]

Okay, reading comprehension.

Try it again.

[RocketMoose]

I like how people use " we can't prove there is a God....YET! But there is" arguments like it makes their superstitions any more valid than the polytheist ideas or anything equally is crazy. So if it can't be be proven than it MUST exist? If that was the case, I could interject that there is a magical tea pot floating in our solar system. Of course, it's too small to see and would never be able to be proven, but since we are using this logic, why can't my belief in the tea pot be any less valid than your man in the sky?

A good quote comes to mind here from Stephen Roberts, "I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Oh ye of little faith.

[chtulu]

Okay, reading comprehension.

Try it again.

What do you mean rereading comprehension? YOU literally said there was AS MUCH PROOF OF A GOD as there was not a god, so i want to know what the facts are that show a God at all?

[Chanus]

What do you mean rereading comprehension? YOU literally said there was AS MUCH PROOF OF A GOD as there was not a god, so i want to know what the facts are that show a God at all?

I'll give you a hint, as you clearly are struggling here.

Are there facts that indicate the non-existence of a god?

[boboo]

its hard to prove or disprove the existence or non-existence of god(s). Although usually, its pretty easy to prove how organized religion is just a tool to control people and make money by manipulating the fear of death in humans.

[RocketMoose]

as i just quoted, what are these FACTS indicating god exists? If you give me the emotional " look at the beauty of our earth" type response, i'll slap you.

How about the complexity of something as simple as an atom? How about the evidence around the world that supports these "Bible stories" such as the Massive boat that just happens to be on the side of a mountain in the middle east, just coincidence I assume?

Regardless, Faith comes by hearing, not by seeing. If you choose to have enough faith to believe that God doesn't exist, that's fine, why don't you take to proving that He doesn't exist. Some of the greatest minds in history have taken to this task only to find the more they looked to disprove God, the further they proved Him.

Even leading scientists at this point do not believe in the THEORY of evolution anymore.

How about this, I'll take a watch apart, put all the tiny little pieces in a bag, give to you, and let you shake it for 10,000 years. What are the odds your watch will come together ticking, and on time at the end of that? That's what people who choose to believe in evolution are believing. Yet they call us the crazy ones...

[chtulu]

I'll give you a hint, as you clearly are struggling here.

Are there facts that indicate the non-existence of a god?


The burden of proof is on you, Chanus, not science.

If that was the case, anyone could conjunct their own crazy ideas of whatever imaginary character ever, and we would have to believe them an be tolerant of it, by your logic.

We don't need to proof there isn't a God, the burden lies on religion to prove there is.

[chtulu]

How about the complexity of something as simple as an atom? How about the evidence around the world that supports these "Bible stories" such as the Massive boat that just happens to be on the side of a mountain in the middle east, just coincidence I assume?

Regardless, Faith comes by hearing, not by seeing. If you choose to have enough faith to believe that God doesn't exist, that's fine, why don't you take to proving that He doesn't exist. Some of the greatest minds in history have taken to this task only to find the more they looked to disprove God, the further they proved Him.

Even leading scientists at this point do not believe in the THEORY of evolution anymore.

How about this, I'll take a watch apart, put all the tiny little pieces in a bag, give to you, and let you shake it for 10,000 years. What are the odds your watch will come together ticking, and on time at the end of that? That's what people who choose to believe in evolution are believing. Yet they call us the crazy ones...

Ahh, the blind watcher maker argument. An amazingly obsolete and dull conjecture by the church that still pops up even today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDdn0UPDjmk Richard Dawkins explains micro evolution and why you're terribly misinformed on what the process is.

[Mardur]

So being atheist is a bad thing?

Yes, it takes the same amount of idiocy and close-mindedness to completely deny the existence of God as it does to have complete faith in the existence of God.

I believe in God, I also don't believe the world was created 6000 years ago and I believe in evolution. I'm not Christian.

I don't really care what other people believe, but agnosticism is 100x preferable to atheism.

[chtulu]

Next rocket moose will produce the "razor's edge" argument. Are you sure your pastor isn't right behind you?

Or at you subscribing to some website that supports Intelligence design as if it were some actual theory and quantified science?

[chtulu]

Yes, it takes the same amount of idiocy and close-mindedness to completely deny the existence of God as it does to have complete faith in the existence of God.

I believe in God, I also don't believe the world was created 6000 years ago and I believe in evolution. I'm not Christian.

I don't really care what other people believe, but agnosticism is 100x preferable to atheism.

That's having your cake and eating it too.

[Chanus]

The burden of proof is on you, Chanus, not science.

If that was the case, anyone could conjunct their own crazy ideas of whatever imaginary character ever, and we would have to believe them an be tolerant of it, by your logic.

We don't need to proof there isn't a God, the burden lies on religion to prove there is.

There's no burden on me, I never claimed to believe in a god.

There is no harm in believing or not believing in whatever fanciful imaginings one can construct for him- or herself, yet for some reason so-called atheists can not sleep at night without demanding the existence of a god be proven.

There is no need to prove the existence of a god for people who believe. It serves no purpose; they already have their faith.

Why someone who doesn't believe must so vehemently attack the harmless faith of others is ludicrous.

You may claim faith causes war, genocide, bigotry, or any number of things, but the truth is those are caused by greed. Causality and correlation have distinct meanings. Often people who perpetuate evil upon others use their faith as a crutch, but it is their greed that truly motivates them.

There are as many, if not more people who are faithful and do acts of good... just as there are plenty who have no faith and go acts of good or evil.

Your crusade to prove to anyone with faith that he or she is wrong serves no purpose other than to reaffirm your own choices due to some insecurity in your beliefs or misguided anger toward those you feel have done wrong.

[JayDee]

Hi my name is Chtutu and I like arguing about stupid shit on emulated everquest forums cause I aint got shit to do IRL

[RocketMoose]

its hard to prove or disprove the existence or non-existence of god(s). Although usually, its pretty easy to prove how organized religion is just a tool to control people and make money by manipulating the fear of death in humans.

You do know that the 'church' doesn't really function the way the Bible outlines it right? You can't blame Jesus, for what men have done. We have free will, we make our own choices and decisions. Church leaders, Pastors, Deacons, Bishops are all men, and thus corruptible based on the fact that we are all men/women that were born into a world of sin and corruption and while we take on the image of God, we are not in and of ourselves divine beings. So, just because the church in large part is corrupt (and I agree with you here) doesn't mean that Christ is corrupt.

People's misconception of "Christians" isn't really based on "Christians" It's those people who claim to be Christians because they go to church on Sunday, and Wednesday, but choose not to live a Christian life, but go because it makes them feel good. Those aren't Christians, those are impostors.


I know there are many times when I'm not the best ambassador for Christ, and I know especially in regards to the guy who created this thread I've not been, but that's not because God loves Him any less, I just have a hard time dealing with people like him, those who believe they know everything, and have all the answers, even when they're as wrong as his statement about bards not being able to CC so it didn't matter if he was using an AoE sword. But in the end, none of this really matters.

I'm flawed, and I have plenty of my own struggles, so I'm not here trying to point out everything wrong with anyone else, that's for sure, I have my own short comings to work on. But seriously, it's laughable to think that someone who "doesn't care" cares enough to fight this vehemently against something that "doesn't exist"

I guess in the end, this thread isn't going to decide anything, just going to further fragment people, and push people further away from what the true message of the Bible is.

The overly simplified version is this:

Jesus loves you, and God has a plan for your life.

I hope that everyone can someday have the assurance that I do, and can know God how I know God. It's not because of a fact I found somewhere, it's not because Mommy and Daddy told me, it's because I know that God has impacted my life. So you can argue he doesn't exist, and I can know in my heart differently, but I'm not going to help you by words, or trying to convince you, I can just hope.

In the end, if I'm wrong, I haven't really missed out on anything in life, but in the end, if you're wrong, you'll be missing out on everything, and for that, I'm truly sad for you.

[RocketMoose]

Next rocket moose will produce the "razor's edge" argument. Are you sure your pastor isn't right behind you?

Or at you subscribing to some website that supports Intelligence design as if it were some actual theory and quantified science?

Best of luck to you...

Painbringer ftw

[boboo]

You do know that the 'church' doesn't really function the way the Bible outlines it right? You can't blame Jesus, for what men have done. We have free will, we make our own choices and decisions. Church leaders, Pastors, Deacons, Bishops are all men, and thus corruptible based on the fact that we are all men/women that were born into a world of sin and corruption and while we take on the image of God, we are not in and of ourselves divine beings. So, just because the church in large part is corrupt (and I agree with you here) doesn't mean that Christ is corrupt.

People's misconception of "Christians" isn't really based on "Christians" It's those people who claim to be Christians because they go to church on Sunday, and Wednesday, but choose not to live a Christian life, but go because it makes them feel good. Those aren't Christians, those are impostors.


I know there are many times when I'm not the best ambassador for Christ, and I know especially in regards to the guy who created this thread I've not been, but that's not because God loves Him any less, I just have a hard time dealing with people like him, those who believe they know everything, and have all the answers, even when they're as wrong as his statement about bards not being able to CC so it didn't matter if he was using an AoE sword. But in the end, none of this really matters.

I'm flawed, and I have plenty of my own struggles, so I'm not here trying to point out everything wrong with anyone else, that's for sure, I have my own short comings to work on. But seriously, it's laughable to think that someone who "doesn't care" cares enough to fight this vehemently against something that "doesn't exist"

I guess in the end, this thread isn't going to decide anything, just going to further fragment people, and push people further away from what the true message of the Bible is.

The overly simplified version is this:

Jesus loves you, and God has a plan for your life.

I hope that everyone can someday have the assurance that I do, and can know God how I know God. It's not because of a fact I found somewhere, it's not because Mommy and Daddy told me, it's because I know that God has impacted my life. So you can argue he doesn't exist, and I can know in my heart differently, but I'm not going to help you by words, or trying to convince you, I can just hope.

In the end, if I'm wrong, I haven't really missed out on anything in life, but in the end, if you're wrong, you'll be missing out on everything, and for that, I'm truly sad for you.

My Uncle is a christian, and has a somewhat similar outlook than you (softer tone, contempt for corruption). He said to me this summer "These frauds have it all wrong, all you need to do to go to heaven is beleive in god". But still that left me this question: What kind of loving god would send me to burn in hell for eternity because I did not beleive in him?

[Chanus]

What kind of loving parent would let a son or daughter move out of the house and make his or her own decisions, regardless of how harmful they might be?

[chtulu]

What kind of loving parent would let a son or daughter move out of the house and make his or her own decisions, regardless of how harmful they might be?

There is no real thing as free will. It's a paradox.

[nalkin]

Your crusade to prove to anyone with faith that he or she is wrong serves no purpose other than to reaffirm your own choices due to some insecurity in your beliefs or misguided anger toward those you feel have done wrong.

I agree with what Chanus said above.

I only find there are 2 times religion becomes an issue and that is when it is taken as fact to make decisions about important things, and the way religion is presented as truth to children (who for no reason of their own should question its authenticity). In either of these cases I feel like it is ok to make a polite reminder on how their religion is not founded on any evidence or logical reasoning.

Otherwise there is no reason anyone should be restricted in believing whatever they want.

[Crone]

One that wants their children to learn the difference between right and wrong, and that their actions have consequences? amiright?

[Chanus]

I agree with what Chanus said above.

I only find there are 2 times religion becomes an issue and that is when it is taken as fact to make decisions about important things, and the way religion is presented as truth to children (who for no reason of their own should question its authenticity). In either of these cases I feel like it is ok to make a polite reminder on how their religion is not founded on any evidence or logical reasoning.

Otherwise there is no reason anyone should be restricted in believing whatever they want.

I would like to subscribe to your magazine.

[Chanus]

There is no real thing as free will. It's a paradox.

It's only a paradox if you believe time is static.

[chtulu]

What about how religion encroaches on civil rights? Modern example; gay rights. What about all the horrible things done IN THE NAME of religion? When was the last time you heard of a mass cleansing in the name of atheism?

[john_savage1982]

http://local-static1.forum-files.fobby.net/forum_attachments/0018/9296/neckbeard.jpg
neckbeard says:

can I join your debate bros? I'm a logical atheist too.

[john_savage1982]

What about how religion encroaches on civil rights? Modern example; gay rights. What about all the horrible things done IN THE NAME of religion? When was the last time you heard of a mass cleansing in the name of atheism?

Apparently you haven't read much about Stalin. Same sort of atrocities, no religion.

[RocketMoose]

My Uncle is a christian, and has a somewhat similar outlook than you (softer tone, contempt for corruption). He said to me this summer "These frauds have it all wrong, all you need to do to go to heaven is beleive in god". But still that left me this question: What kind of loving god would send me to burn in hell for eternity because I did not beleive in him?

See, the problem I see there, is God isn't choosing to send you to Hell. He's given you the ability to make your own decisions, and if you choose by your actions that you're going to Hell that's up to you. It's not like He's trying to trick you or He wants you to fail. God isn't some kid in the Cosmos just waiting to zap you with His wand every time you screw up.

God also didn't make us robots who are all going to just conform to loving Him because He made us to do so, where would the satisfaction be in that?

So, it's not really God sending you there, He made the rules easy to find, and they're really not outlandish, it's just some people have a problem with authority I think. But God doesn't want to be separated from you, not at all, I can assure you of that. But He also can't have any part with sin. He couldn't even look on His own son when He took on the sins of the world and was crucified.

That's where the "fire and brimstone" guys give the wrong impression I think.

[Chanus]

What about how religion encroaches on civil rights? Modern example; gay rights. What about all the horrible things done IN THE NAME of religion? When was the last time you heard of a mass cleansing in the name of atheism?

Uhmm.. The Soviet Union ring a bell?

[Alawen Everywhere]

There is a word I currently use...for all of you...people. You people type in the same "I'm intelligent, I know things, I'm above religion, blah blah blah...I mock the world cause I'm insecure" tone yet most of you probably attended something like a second or third tier state college (or never attended college) and read book from people like Richard Dawkins while thinking "I'm so logical and above the rest and if people don't agree with me then they must be wrong." If you didn't attend college you've probably invented reasons like "I'm anti-establishment" to justify why you have any semblance of legitimate knowledge.

The funny part is while most of you denounce religion and go on about ideas of science/logic/evolution/whatever, most of you probably have just as vague idea about the intricacies of these subjects as you do about the intricacies of religion. This is perhaps the saddest part in all of this. The come back here will be "I have a degree in blah blah blah, I know things." All I will do is laugh if I see them.

There is a difference between religion and the organization/politics surrounding religion. Further, while you stand firm against religion, you might not realize that ideas of morality in the western world is strongly based in judeo-christian ethics. Call whatever your idea of morality whatever you want - it's likely most of these ideas are rooted in religion. Consider - why be moral? State will punish you if you don't? If you stop yourself from being immoral - what brings you to act correctly? What you call "I am in control of my mind, i do what is right, blah blah blah," I happen to call "indoctrination by the state." The stat ein return gets the indoctrinating ideas from religion.

Now, the word I call you folk. Neckbeards. You're all god dang neckbeards. Full of yourselves yet total idiots.

[IMG]http://pugetsoundblogs.com/bremertonbeat/files/2008/10

Aristotle was neither Jewish nor Christian. Try again.

[boboo]

See, the problem I see there, is God isn't choosing to send you to Hell. He's given you the ability to make your own decisions, and if you choose by your actions that you're going to Hell that's up to you. It's not like He's trying to trick you or He wants you to fail. God isn't some kid in the Cosmos just waiting to zap you with His wand every time you screw up.

God also didn't make us robots who are all going to just conform to loving Him because He made us to do so, where would the satisfaction be in that?

So, it's not really God sending you there, He made the rules easy to find, and they're really not outlandish, it's just some people have a problem with authority I think. But God doesn't want to be separated from you, not at all, I can assure you of that. But He also can't have any part with sin. He couldn't even look on His own son when He took on the sins of the world and was crucified.

That's where the "fire and brimstone" guys give the wrong impression I think.

But still god could choose not to send me to hell could he not? Prevent me from burning and suffering for eternity, because he loves me? How can he send me there if he truly loves me?

[RocketMoose]

What about how religion encroaches on civil rights? Modern example; gay rights. What about all the horrible things done IN THE NAME of religion? When was the last time you heard of a mass cleansing in the name of atheism?

In what way does religion encroach on gay rights?

I don't approve of homosexuality, but I don't disapprove of the homosexuals themselves. Read what I wrote before, it's not the PERSON that's the issue, it's their sin, some people are just more repulsed by it than they are by other sins. The Bible calls it an abomination, but doesn't call the PERSON an abomination.

I'm sure this is a lot for you to grasp though.

Also, the modern "church" is not Jesus, it's not God, in fact in a lot of ways it's a terrible misrepresentation of God and His love.

There are a lot of bigots masquerading as Christians, don't be fooled. People hide behind "religion" but look at Jesus, He went into the church and turned it upside down because the "church" was hosting gambling and games. Jesus wasn't even approved by the "church" in fact it was the "church" who wanted Jesus crucified...

[RocketMoose]

Uhmm.. The Soviet Union ring a bell?

What does that have to do with Jesus?

[Chanus]

What does that have to do with Jesus?

Communist Russia (ie: The Soviet Union) was anti-religious, to the point of massacring people. It pertains to this:

[QUTOE="cthulu"]When was the last time you heard of a mass cleansing in the name of atheism?[/quote]

[Chanus]

gdi... Quote, not Qutoe

RAMSES! LET MY PEOPLE EDIT!

[RocketMoose]

But still god could choose not to send me to hell could he not? Prevent me from burning and suffering for eternity, because he loves me? How can he send me there if he truly loves me?

There is a thing called dispensation of grace, which isn't really defined, and that's why some people believe that once they are "Saved" they are always "saved" and then allowed to do whatever they please.

But if you want to simplify, have you ever been in love? Like crazy high school days in love? Then had that girl/guy just totally crush you and break your heart, and they come to you begging for forgiveness over and over again, you forgive them, and take them back over and over again. What happens if they never ask you to forgive them, do you choose for them to not be with you anymore, or did they make that choice by never asking for your forgiveness and for you to take them back?

Just because you love someone, doesn't mean you can force them to do something they don't want to do. They make the choice to separate themselves from you, not you from them.

[RocketMoose]

gdi... Quote, not Qutoe

RAMSES! LET MY PEOPLE EDIT!

Ah, sorry, my bad.

[Hoggen]

What about how religion encroaches on civil rights? Modern example; gay rights. What about all the horrible things done IN THE NAME of religion? When was the last time you heard of a mass cleansing in the name of atheism?

Are you ever going to stop spouting crap? What do you think one of the central premises of Marxist-Leninism is? I suppose you've never heard of Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot? Get a clue and stick to playing ten year old free games.

[boboo]

There is a thing called dispensation of grace, which isn't really defined, and that's why some people believe that once they are "Saved" they are always "saved" and then allowed to do whatever they please.

But if you want to simplify, have you ever been in love? Like crazy high school days in love? Then had that girl/guy just totally crush you and break your heart, and they come to you begging for forgiveness over and over again, you forgive them, and take them back over and over again. What happens if they never ask you to forgive them, do you choose for them to not be with you anymore, or did they make that choice by never asking for your forgiveness and for you to take them back?

Just because you love someone, doesn't mean you can force them to do something they don't want to do. They make the choice to separate themselves from you, not you from them.

So wait, god has no control over if I get sent to hell or not? Is that what youre saying? Do not evade the question, is the decision to send people to hell is made by god himself or it happens outside of his control? Im not talking about the decisions that would lead me to go to hell, which are mine, but the final decision, when the hammer falls, its god's or not?

[Hoggen]

So wait, god has no control over if I get sent to hell or not? Is that what youre saying? Do not evade the question, is the decision to send people to hell is made by god himself or it happens outside of his control? Im not talking about the decisions that would lead me to go to hell, which are mine, but the final decision, when the hammer falls, its god's or not?

God has no control over whether you spend your life responding in RnF, Boboo. That answer your question?

[boboo]

God has no control over whether you spend your life responding in RnF, Boboo. That answer your question?

No

[Chanus]

So wait, god has no control over if I get sent to hell or not? Is that what youre saying? Do not evade the question, is the decision to send people to hell is made by god himself or it happens outside of his control? Im not talking about the decisions that would lead me to go to hell, which are mine, but the final decision, when the hammer falls, its god's or not?

Does the criminal decide to go to jail or does the law decide to punish the criminal?

If the rules are there and you don't follow them, whose fault are the consequences?

[RocketMoose]

So wait, god has no control over if I get sent to hell or not? Is that what youre saying? Do not evade the question, is the decision to send people to hell is made by god himself or it happens outside of his control? Im not talking about the decisions that would lead me to go to hell, which are mine, but the final decision, when the hammer falls, its god's or not?

The decision is yours and yours alone. God doesn't CHOOSE to send you to Hell. You by YOUR actions, and YOUR choices send yourself there.

Ezekiel 18:23
Ezekiel 33:11
2 Peter 3:9

God is Sovereign, He made the rules, He, being God, must abide by the rules that God himself set in place. He's not choosing for you to go to Hell, It's not His desire for you to go to Hell. It's like a Mom or Dad saying, no, don't do this, or you're going to go to timeout, if you do it, you go to timeout.

You're trying to make this about God choosing to send you to Hell, and no, He never wanted that. But if you choose that path, He's not going to just be like, oh okay, just kidding you can go to Heaven.

[boboo]

You're trying to make this about God choosing to send you to Hell, and no, He never wanted that. But if you choose that path, He's not going to just be like, oh okay, just kidding you can go to Heaven.

Then you beleive the ultimate decision lies with god, wether or not he will condemn me to eternal suffering. Which to me, is absurd to the highest level. A loving god doesnt condemn people to eternal suffering because they do not beleive in god. Thats a god of hate and evil. Thats why i think christianity and other religions are bullshit. So without further ado, i dedicate this dayglo abortions song to God.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MuKZZ8-LHoo?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MuKZZ8-LHoo?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[boboo]

And another Dayglo Abortions song, for good measure:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9dNM-oVNYe0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9dNM-oVNYe0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[RocketMoose]

Then you beleive the ultimate decision lies with god, wether or not he will condemn me to eternal suffering. Which to me, is absurd to the highest level. A loving god doesnt condemn people to eternal suffering because they do not beleive in god. Thats a god of hate and evil. Thats why i think christianity and other religions are bullshit. So without further ado, i dedicate this dayglo abortions song to God.


Right, it's God's fault that YOU chose not to abide by the rules, and he MUST hate you because it couldn't possibly be YOUR fault.

People like you, with your sense of entitlement are exactly what's wrong with MY generation. I'm not an old blue hair, in fact far from it, but I'm not so haughty and high minded that I'm just going to believe that everything I do is right, or everything I say is right, or anything that I want is right.

Do you not see how you're trying to twist it so it fits your view? You ignore the parts you want, and focus on the parts that would make it appear that you're right, even though if you were to take a step back, you'd realize just how wrong you were.

I dunno who did what to you, or if your Daddy didn't hug you enough as a kid or whatever, but quit looking for reason to be mad brew. I'm sure you're sitting there as if you've "won" the debate here, but it's just not true. I'm sad for you.

[thrice]

No, because many instances allow for someone to complete a task "late." "Too late" is a situation where there is no possibility of completing said task.

Example: you get to work "late" and they dock you a portion of your pay or make you work late to make up for it.

Example 2: McGyver is about to diffuse the bomb when it blows him and his friends up.

One is late. Two is too late.


Except for the fact that the lyric is, "It's a free ride when you've already PAID" .

WTF do you think is ironic about getting a FREE ride when you're LATE, let alone TOO LATE.

Last, it's widely known that the situations in the song are hardly irony - just shitty luck.

[Chanus]

To be fair, the logical extension that everyone who died before Jesus was born (and therefore could not accept his divinity) is in Hell is just stupid.

[boboo]

Right, it's God's fault that YOU chose not to abide by the rules, and he MUST hate you because it couldn't possibly be YOUR fault.

People like you, with your sense of entitlement are exactly what's wrong with MY generation. I'm not an old blue hair, in fact far from it, but I'm not so haughty and high minded that I'm just going to believe that everything I do is right, or everything I say is right, or anything that I want is right.

Do you not see how you're trying to twist it so it fits your view? You ignore the parts you want, and focus on the parts that would make it appear that you're right, even though if you were to take a step back, you'd realize just how wrong you were.

I dunno who did what to you, or if your Daddy didn't hug you enough as a kid or whatever, but quit looking for reason to be mad brew. I'm sure you're sitting there as if you've "won" the debate here, but it's just not true. I'm sad for you.

Thats cool, you can always piss on me from heaven when youre chilling with the white bearded dude in the sky, to alleviate my eternal suffering. Hes a male with white skin too right, like in the pictures?

[RocketMoose]

Except for the fact that the lyric is, "It's a free ride when you've already PAID" .

WTF do you think is ironic about getting a FREE ride when you're LATE, let alone TOO LATE.

Last, it's widely known that the situations in the song are hardly irony - just shitty luck.

There in lies the irony of that song.

[Slathar]

i live my life like tyler durden guys.

[Slathar]

also, and i mean this in no bad way, i think cthulu slightly resembles paul giamatti. too bad he isn't cool like him.

[Harrison]

The sheer amount of stupidity and poorly spelled bullshit by this kid is fucking staggering. This was worth the wait lol

[Harrison]

I can't spell in my native tongue or form a coherent argument, but I know everything there is to know about complex metaphysical philosophy lewlz

No.
You're a hate spewing moron.

[Slathar]

No.
You're a hate spewing moron.

wow this is ironic. aren't you a right wing, gun-totting, gay-hating, bush-loving maniac

[Theldios]

I want to know where you get this so called "fact" from
Because in central and south america the population is 90% catholic the rest is "other" So to say that Fact only the middle east is as religious as the U.S.A. is really kind of ignorant.

Many many many contries are just as or more religious than the U.S.A.


Still waiting for your answer as to where you get this "fact" from other than out of thin air

[Harrison]

wow this is ironic. aren't you a right wing, gun-totting, gay-hating, bush-loving maniac

I'm a moderate.
I don't "tott" guns.
I don't hate gays.
I didn't care for Bush at all, actually.

Keep trying, kid. ;)

[Daldolma]

One of the core problems in this discussion is that the concept of God is being conflated with subscription to organized religion. You can believe in God without believing the Earth was created in 7 days. You can believe in God without believing in Jesus, Mecca, the Pope, Jewish God, Xenu, or Oprah Winfrey. You can believe in God without believing in heaven, hell, or Intelligent Design.

God is a theory for the creation of the universe and of life. It's not any better or any worse than any other theory, and most of the scientifically accepted theories (Big Bang, for example) assert nothing that is incompatible with the notion of God the Creator. The beginnings of the universe are wholly beyond the scope and comprehension of humanity. Whether you believe that a God is responsible or not, the truth is, nobody knows and nobody can know and nobody will know for, at a minimum, hundreds and hundreds of years.

So to crap on a fairly reasonable theory (that there was an original, sentient creator of the universe) is highly unfair, and more importantly, illogical. You don't have to believe it, but there's no reason to dismiss it. And there's no burden of proof on anyone. It's called faith/belief because there is no proof, no evidence. You believe it or you don't.

[Mardur]

ITT: Kids who just finished Philosophy 101 with a C.

[Mardur]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1357.snc4/162959_747348910238_60717275_38831127_2270849_n.jp g

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

Whether you believe that a God is responsible or not, the truth is, nobody knows and nobody can know and nobody will know for, at a minimum, hundreds and hundreds of years.

Love how this guy puts a timeline to it. "Minimum, 200 years to proving god exists. Here, I've got the math written down somewhere..."

[Daldolma]

Love how this guy puts a timeline to it. "Minimum, 200 years to proving god exists. Here, I've got the math written down somewhere..."

Shhh. Talk less, read more. I did not put a timeline on proof for God's existence. I said that we're, at a minimum, hundreds of years of technological advancement away from understanding the beginnings of the universe, let alone whether or not any God played a role.

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

It is not technology that limits out understanding of that era of the history of the universe, but our cosmological perspective itself. Unless you are familiar with the underpinnings of the Big Bang theory (which you described as "one of several generally accepted theories. Ha. What are these other generally accepted theories?) you really have no place commenting on the state of humanities understanding of the universe. Quick, what role did the discovery of the "red-shift" play in out understanding of the cosmos and our place in it? If you can't answer that quickly and definitively without use of the internet you should STFU, you are out of your depth. Moron.

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

LET ME EDIT MY TYPOS!! NOOOO!

[Daldolma]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

Like I said -- read more, talk less. Technology is a huge obstacle in understanding whether or not the Big Bang Theory is even viable. And when you sort out the difference between plural and possessive (humanities understanding? Really?), we can delve into red-shift and why you believe you have the right to have me jump through intellectual hoops to earn my chops on a subject that is a footnote to a footnote of the original argument.

The Big Bang Theory is not the issue. The technological requirements for proving the viability of the Big Bang Theory is not the issue. The requisite time and advancement necessary to reach these technological requirements is not the issue.

The point was that we, as a species, have extremely insufficient information regarding the universe's origins in order to make any conclusive claims regarding whether or not a God was necessary or responsible. I'll save you the time of a breathy and angry response: there is nothing to disagree with.

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

As I said, TYPOS! NOOO! and yeah, you clearly don't know what you are talking about. You lose. It's obvious who's done more reading in this field.

[Mardur]

This thread is even worse than that math one.

[Alawen Everywhere]

In the Iroquois creation myth, the world was created on the back of a giant turtle. I like that one.

[RocketMoose]

To be fair, the logical extension that everyone who died before Jesus was born (and therefore could not accept his divinity) is in Hell is just stupid.

No one said that. If you recall that the Old Testament was pre Jesus, and it didn't say they all went to Hell, if you'll remember some were even called to Heaven without dying, and got to ride up in a Chariot of Fire...

There was still God then, there was just a different form of communicating. See, there is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood. It's been that way from the beginning, so people gave of their best, and sacrificed it, whether it was their best lamb, their best goat, whatever they had. They gave their best, but when Jesus came, He didn't eliminate the sacrifice, he just paid the ultimate sacrifice so no more blood was to be shed.

So I don't know why anyone would say this, or believe this, I agree that's just stupid.

[boboo]

2 points in my life where I stopped beleiving in god.

First time: I was about 10 years old, and killing bees by whamming my 2 hands together like HAHA i win stupid bee, whos stinging me now? That was as a revenge for getting stung earlier in my young life. My school principal was called Father Legault (a catholic). Feeling subconsciously guilty, i asked him if bees went to heaven. He tells me no. I ask him why. He snaps... THEY JUST DONT!! Thats when my faith in god took a large nose dive. If the school principal of the school where the choirboys of the biggest church in Canada learned to sing didnt know why bees didnt go to heaven, that was a bit fucked up i thought.

Look at how big it is, JUST LOOK AT IT:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Oratoire_Saint-Joseph_du_Mont-Royal_3.jpg/250px-Oratoire_Saint-Joseph_du_Mont-Royal_3.jpg

The final nail in the coffin: Wasnt religious to begin with, but im bored babysitting at 15, and theres a bible hanging around in the bookcase. I open it at a random spot. Genesis. There i read that the egyptians decided to not pursue the jews into the desert. But to make a point, god controls their mind like some evil cartoon villain and he leads them toward the desert, THEN DROWNS THEM ALL BY SLAMMING BOTH SIDES OF A SEA ON THEM. What a beautiful heart warming story i thought. That sealed the deal of my faith in a biblical god.

[Daldolma]

The final nail in the coffin: Wasnt religious to begin with, but im bored babysitting at 15, and theres a bible hanging around in the bookcase. I open it at a random spot. Genesis. There i read that the egyptians decided to not pursue the jews into the desert. But to make a point, god controls their mind like some evil cartoon villain and he leads them toward the desert, THEN DROWNS THEM ALL BY SLAMMING BOTH SIDES OF A SEA ON THEM. What a beautiful heart warming story i thought. That sealed the deal of my faith in a biblical god.

Dude, Old Testament God is a baller. He did a lot of smiting in those days.

[Alawen Everywhere]

No one said that. If you recall that the Old Testament was pre Jesus, and it didn't say they all went to Hell, if you'll remember some were even called to Heaven without dying, and got to ride up in a Chariot of Fire...

There was still God then, there was just a different form of communicating. See, there is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood. It's been that way from the beginning, so people gave of their best, and sacrificed it, whether it was their best lamb, their best goat, whatever they had. They gave their best, but when Jesus came, He didn't eliminate the sacrifice, he just paid the ultimate sacrifice so no more blood was to be shed.

So I don't know why anyone would say this, or believe this, I agree that's just stupid.

Yeah, that would be dumb! Clearly those Old Testament people just had to ritually slaughter some cattle and then they could go to heaven!

[chtulu]

What people are not understanding is that religion itself is a handicap on people's perspective of the world as well as their ability to "think outside the bun(had to since fourthmeal isn't ringing in this thread).".

Look at the U.S. We can't used government funding for stem cell research. We also give churches tax exemptions, even though their hands are so far up all politicians back, i could swear I was watching a horrible Jeff Dunham special.

My personal opinion is that I don't care if people believe in God(s). I care that this country allows religion, in general, to influence our laws and the way we progress in the scientific community as well as how we dictate civil rights. How many people could we have saved if we started stem cell research in full force 10 years ago from Alzheimer and Parkinson's as well as many other diseases?

The belief in a god is fine when it's confined to one's personal domain, but when it starts affecting others directly; I feel that it's a important line, crossed.

[Uberom]

How many people could we have saved if we started stem cell research in full force 10 years ago from Alzheimer and Parkinson's as well as many other diseases?


You're making the mistake of assuming that the people who make the important decisions in this world actually have that agenda. Stated fact: the money wants global depopulation.

[Supreme]

The world has been destroyed and recreated many times over. Scientist concluded that earth is about 4.5 billion years old. Every 150k years (since about 65 million years ago)the earth burns up and is "recreated". There is no true way to determine if current civilization is actually the FIRST.

Scientist cant explain, however, what or who caused the "big bang".

Religion is spiritual to many. It is in your heart. Because you want it there and you want to believe. I personally believe in god (someone/something of intelligent design had to have created existence) but i do not believe in religion.

[chtulu]

The world has been destroyed and recreated many times over. Scientist concluded that earth is about 4.5 billion years old. Every 150k years (since about 65 million years ago)the earth burns up and is "recreated". There is no true way to determine if current civilization is actually the FIRST.

Scientist cant explain, however, what or who caused the "big bang".

Religion is spiritual to many. It is in your heart. Because you want it there and you want to believe. I personally believe in god (someone/something of intelligent design had to have created existence) but i do not believe in religion.


One did something HAVE to create us? Why do you need to believe that? Also... this is the first time I've heard of a theory that conjectures that the earth is destroyed every once in awhile, and is recycled. I have a hard time believing that since we can date things much older than 150 thousand years old in existence now.

[Mardur]

Chtulu what's the difference between blindly denying god and blindly believing in god? Why do only one of these situations make you an "idiot?"

[Mardur]

http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/106807-the-ten-best-mini-games-ever-/Ten%20Best%20Mini-Games%20-%207-468x.jpg

[chtulu]

An easy way to explain why I am hostile to religion.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtC65lm4MGE

Basically, because I'm tired of people just using God to explain everything and people to use religion to manipulate people. But seriously, just watch the clip.

[Kassel]

Thank god for the Grammy, Thank god for the touchdown, Thank god for blowing up the enemy's sacred ground.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Do you understand that pathos and ethos are both parts of rhetoric besides logos? Your entire premise here is that logos is all that matters.

Most people in religion don't care about the dogma and they never read their sacred texts aside from hearing someone drone on about it once a week or whatever. Most organized religion is about socializing and community. Sometimes it's about a really charismatic religious leader.

Many people are much more affected by things like emotion, reputation, authority and tradition than they are by reason and pointing out their lack of reason is insulting to them.

Now can we talk about the giant turtle?

[chtulu]

Do you understand that pathos and ethos are both parts of rhetoric besides logos? Your entire premise here is that logos is all that matters.

Most people in religion don't care about the dogma and they never read their sacred texts aside from hearing someone drone on about it once a week or whatever. Most organized religion is about socializing and community. Sometimes it's about a really charismatic religious leader.

Many people are much more affected by things like emotion, reputation, authority and tradition than they are by reason and pointing out their lack of reason is insulting to them.

Now can we talk about the giant turtle?

I'd be ok with religion if it was all about community and helping others. But when those religions start asking their members to donate money to propagate against gay marriage, or lobby politicians into voting against pro choice and stem cell research, then I have a huge problem with it; and lately religion has really been poking it's nose in things that are not their business other than their own personal principals.

[chtulu]

Oh, and if anyone has the balls to ask about morality and atheism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSYosM2ZhzY&feature=related

[Mardur]

Chtulu keeps ignoring me :(

This guy and Pycoba should get together sometime.

<Troll Proof>

[chtulu]

Chtulu keeps ignoring me :(

This guy and Pycoba should get together sometime.

<Troll Proof>

I answered you why. I gave you a link that describes my feelings toward why believing in God is worse, in a social and scientific progression stand point, than NOT believing in a God.

[Alawen Everywhere]

I'd be ok with religion if it was all about community and helping others. But when those religions start asking their members to donate money to propagate against gay marriage, or lobby politicians into voting against pro choice and stem cell research, then I have a huge problem with it; and lately religion has really been poking it's nose in things that are not their business other than their own personal principals.

That's interesting and all, but don't be surprised when the (very numerous) members of those monolithic religions are insulted and don't like you.

[chtulu]

That's fine, they can be insulted all they want. Their beliefs shouldn't be anymore protected than the belief of someone's favorite basketball team.

[Daldolma]

I like when people try to pretend that "religion" dictates things like the average American's stance on gay marriage. This is where the frustration comes from. You're lashing out at the wrong bogeyman. Religion isn't the problem. Ignorance is.

Do you honestly think the Church's viewpoint on gay marriage is the reason it's been excluded from American law? If the Pope came out tomorrow and said gay marriage is just as valid as straight marriage, do you think even 1% more of Americans would be willing to vote in favor of gay marriage? Let me spare you the suspense: the answer is no. Ol' Billy Bob in Little Rock isn't voting in favor of gay marriage, period, ever. Homosexuality between adult men had been ridiculed and ostracized for thousands of years before Jesus was ever even born. It's a prejudice that existed long before religion, and would continue to exist thereafter.

Let's move onto capital punishment. Pope John Paul II issued an edict stating that in modern times, capital punishment should be practically obsolete, as it should not be used so long as there is a method to protect society from the offender without putting him to death (ie: imprisonment). Did that change anything in the US? Of course not. The Church is firmly against the use of condoms. Take a look at Trojan's quarterly numbers. Doesn't look like religion is really doing much there, either.

Was Christ a member of the NRA? Because somehow they still have a sizable constituency. Hitler, Stalin, Mao -- they managed to put together some of the most horrific atrocities in the history of our species without citing any religious justification. And literally millions of people cheered them on while they did it.

Organized religion opens its own can of worms -- it's not what this thread was originally about. It's entirely different from "belief in God". But even regarding organized religion, you're giving it more credit than it deserves. In America, when organized religion tells people what they want to hear, they listen. When it doesn't, they don't. It's not 1100 anymore. The vast majority of Americans live their lives based on prejudices and ignorances which are mostly or wholly independent of religion, even if they don't know it. People interpret religion to support whatever they want it to.

You show me where in the Bible it says stem cell research is illegal.

[chtulu]

We have had issues with abortion and pro choice for years. We still aren't funding stem cell research with government money because of the religious aspect of life at conception, yadda yadda yadda.

Also, if you don't think the government on a state level is being influenced by the church then maybe you should look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezwIZo-hKiI

It's about how much the mormon church influenced and spent on proposition 8. They directly impacted the votes. In this case, religion impacted government; specifically civil right laws. Don't try to tell me that religion and God is only for personal well being, it encroaches on other lives and their personal beliefs.

[john_savage1982]

Do you understand that pathos and ethos are both parts of rhetoric besides logos? Your entire premise here is that logos is all that matters.

Most people in religion don't care about the dogma and they never read their sacred texts aside from hearing someone drone on about it once a week or whatever. Most organized religion is about socializing and community. Sometimes it's about a really charismatic religious leader.

Many people are much more affected by things like emotion, reputation, authority and tradition than they are by reason and pointing out their lack of reason is insulting to them.

Now can we talk about the giant turtle?

To extend this. When we consider science do you realize how much trust is placed in the findings of others? The scientific method is supposed to insure repeatability but tell me guys, what have you done to personally try and verify the theory of evolution? How many quantum physic experiments have you done? What makes the word of a researcher any more valid then the words of a priest? Because the "science" has been verified? By who? Why do you trust them?

Can you explain exactly, in detail, how a car works, and be able to build one yourself from just raw materials? A television? A computer? A steam engine? Did you drive a vehicle before you learned the science behind how a vehicle was constructed and how it worked? Not just the broad idea - every little tiny mechanism. Did you examine the source code for your OS before you used it and make sure you knew how every tiny part worked? If you do all this stuff then you're some kind of uber-man but for most people there is considerable implicit trust placed in scientific findings and the technology and consumer products that result from the findings.

Perhaps many of you are emotionally-repressed and secretly angry all the time but there is a very rich realm of experiences that can be learned from feeling. Especially in the US, people tend to think of and treat their body like some sort of slave to their mind, however, if you want to look at (science), our body is, for the most part, driving the mind. Concerning feelings though, what makes ones emotional experience of life any less legitimate then the light entering their eyes to create an image or vibrations creating sound? Is it because we can somehow measure and categorize these things that they are more legitimate? Does that seem right/feel right to people?

If you want to reduce human experience and living down to only the scientific facts then you'd be ignoring a large part of being human. Why choose to do that? Religion is largely an emotional experience - which is probably why many of you attack it - and unless you've genuinely experienced religion you're ignorantly attacking something that you don't understand. Look at this entire thread. Everybody here seems caught up in information like gods existence, the evils of the church, reasons why religion shouldn't exist, but nobody is considering how religion makes people feel. What some people call indoctrination and mind control, others call sharing a very beautiful and terrific feeling.

You might notice that the consequences of religion really isn't that different from the consequences of science technology. Nuclear technology can provide energy or it can level entire cities. Religion can provide aid and community or it can lead to murder and destruction. We continue to do science, why can't we continue to do religion too? Perhaps to YOU the benefits of religion doesn't out way the costs, but for many people the rich emotional experience that religion provides out ways the cost.

[chtulu]

What does religion give emotionally that a spouse can't, or a hobby or personal achievement?

Or do you mean it emotionally soothes people who are afraid of the unknown and/or death? Because I feel emotionally satisfied without believing there is a bearded man in space.

What does belief in an intangible super being give you that things in the real world can't other than a false sense of security when you're on your death bed?

[Daldolma]

We have had issues with abortion and pro choice for years. We still aren't funding stem cell research with government money because of the religious aspect of life at conception, yadda yadda yadda.

Also, if you don't think the government on a state level is being influenced by the church then maybe you should look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezwIZo-hKiI

It's about how much the mormon church influenced and spent on proposition 8. They directly impacted the votes. In this case, religion impacted government; specifically civil right laws. Don't try to tell me that religion and God is only for personal well being, it encroaches on other lives and their personal beliefs.

No, you're missing the point. Religion didn't raise money and votes for Proposition 8. People did. They did it through the Mormon church. If the Mormon church didn't exist, they'd have done it through some anti-gay marriage PAC. In fact, that very trailer quotes a person saying that the Church was operating as a PAC. You're talking about "religion" as if it's forming people's opinions on the matter, when that is clearly not the case. As stated above, persecution against homosexuals pre-dates Jesus by thousands of years. In the case of its work on Proposition 8, the Mormon Church might as well have been the NRA. You're acting as if these viewpoints are being created by religion, when in reality, the religious entities you're pointing at are only being used as tools to legitimize and organize previously-held prejudices and beliefs.

[chtulu]

No, you're missing the point. Religion didn't raise money and votes for Proposition 8. People did. They did it through the Mormon church. If the Mormon church didn't exist, they'd have done it through some anti-gay marriage PAC. In fact, that very trailer quotes a person saying that the Church was operating as a PAC. You're talking about "religion" as if it's forming people's opinions on the matter, when that is clearly not the case. As stated above, persecution against homosexuals pre-dates Jesus by thousands of years. In the case of its work on Proposition 8, the Mormon Church might as well have been the NRA. You're acting as if these viewpoints are being created by religion, when in reality, the religious entities you're pointing at are only being used as tools to legitimize and organize previously-held prejudices and beliefs.

Of course these view points are created by the church. Which bible DOESN'T say that homosexuality is a deadly sin? If religion wasn't around in the first place to brainwash people into it's agenda of right and wrong (that is quite hypocritical and morbid to say the lead) than our societies perspective on personal beliefs and lifestyles would be different.

Of course the mormon church was part of a PAC. But where do you think those anti gay movements and establishments got their seed of bigotry? It started somewhere, and Judaism is the oldest form of anti gay propaganda.

[skulldudes]

arguing about religion, or lack thereof, is like making jokes about how arguing on the internet is like the special olympics.

old and tired.

[chtulu]

arguing about religion, or lack thereof, is like making jokes about how arguing on the internet is like the special olympics.

old and tired.

so was arguing woman's suffrage.

[Theldios]

I want to know where you get this so called "fact" from
Because in central and south america the population is 90% catholic the rest is "other" So to say that Fact only the middle east is as religious as the U.S.A. is really kind of ignorant.

Many many many contries are just as or more religious than the U.S.A.


Still waiting....

[Theldios]

Of course these view points are created by the church. Which bible DOESN'T say that homosexuality is a deadly sin? If religion wasn't around in the first place to brainwash people into it's agenda of right and wrong (that is quite hypocritical and morbid to say the lead) than our societies perspective on personal beliefs and lifestyles would be different.

Of course the mormon church was part of a PAC. But where do you think those anti gay movements and establishments got their seed of bigotry? It started somewhere, and Judaism is the oldest form of anti gay propaganda.

Please quote for me passage and verse where itsays homosexuality is a deadly sin. Bet you can't

[chtulu]

Still waiting....

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

there are the reports of religion in the united states. AKA less than 2% of the population is atheist (or will admit it).



* Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
* Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
* 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
* Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."


You tell me where ANY religion CONDONES homosexuality, and i'll eat my words.

[Daldolma]

Judaism is most certainly *not* the oldest form of anti-gay propaganda. Your ignorance on the matter is showing, and that's not meant as an insult. It's not necessarily common knowledge, I'm simply informing you. The first Jewish anti-gay laws were recorded in the 6th century BC. Assyrians had anti-gay laws recorded in the 11th century BC. And it's highly likely that there was severe persecution against homosexuals in the centuries predating the Assyrian laws, but obviously, the recording of those eras is spotty -- particularly in niche areas like social response to homosexuality. Anti-homosexual sentiment was *not* created by any church or any religion. Neither was male chauvinism. Both were "grandfathered in", if you will.

And if you truly believe that organized religion is brainwashing the American masses into adherence, then why is it that so many religious edicts are flatly ignored? What makes the Church so effective at indoctrinating anti-gay sentiment, while they fail miserably at preventing the use of condoms? Why do so many people oppose abortion, while so many gladly partake in pre-marital sex? The fact is, the Church isn't brainwashing anyone. People take the Bible and use it to confirm their prior-held beliefs, whether or not that's what the Bible actually says. The vast majority of NRA supporters are religious Christians. Do you think Jesus would have been pro-automatic weaponry for the masses? I'm guessing no.

Religion is a red herring. It's about ignorance and dogma. Some people use religion, some people use the Constitution, some people use nationalism. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao managed to do everything you accuse religion of doing -- without religion.

[Theldios]

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

there are the reports of religion in the united states. AKA less than 2% of the population is atheist (or will admit it).



* Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."1
* Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"
* 1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."
* Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."


You tell me where ANY religion CONDONES homosexuality, and i'll eat my words.

Perhaps you do not remeber your own words. You stated as fact that the onlyother countriesin the world more religious than the USA are in the middle east.
I Called bullshit and pointed out latin america. and you link something that only touches on religion in america?I still call bullshit

And where do any of those passages call it a deadly sin?
Do you even know what the term "deadly sin" means?
Please learn of what you speak before spouting terms like "deadly sin"
Which is a term created by catholic doctrine not the bible.
Matter of fact there is no such think as a "deadly sin" in the bible

So again please quote me a passage where it is stated it is a "deadly sin"
Still Bet you can't

[chtulu]

Judaism is most certainly *not* the oldest form of anti-gay propaganda. Your ignorance on the matter is showing, and that's not meant as an insult. It's not necessarily common knowledge, I'm simply informing you. The first Jewish anti-gay laws were recorded in the 6th century BC. Assyrians had anti-gay laws recorded in the 11th century BC. And it's highly likely that there was severe persecution against homosexuals in the centuries predating the Assyrian laws, but obviously, the recording of those eras is spotty -- particularly in niche areas like social response to homosexuality. Anti-homosexual sentiment was *not* created by any church or any religion. Neither was male chauvinism. Both were "grandfathered in", if you will.

And if you truly believe that organized religion is brainwashing the American masses into adherence, then why is it that so many religious edicts are flatly ignored? What makes the Church so effective at indoctrinating anti-gay sentiment, while they fail miserably at preventing the use of condoms? Why do so many people oppose abortion, while so many gladly partake in pre-marital sex? The fact is, the Church isn't brainwashing anyone. People take the Bible and use it to confirm their prior-held beliefs, whether or not that's what the Bible actually says. The vast majority of NRA supporters are religious Christians. Do you think Jesus would have been pro-automatic weaponry for the masses? I'm guessing no.

Religion is a red herring. It's about ignorance and dogma. Some people use religion, some people use the Constitution, some people use nationalism. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao managed to do everything you accuse religion of doing -- without religion.

Exactly, thank you for proving my point. Without religion, that would be one less reason to have an excuse for bigotry and intolerance. It's just a visage to cover pure and simple, hate for anything different then the opinions of the movers and shakers in the churches.

[chtulu]

Perhaps you do not remeber your own words. You stated as fact that the onlyother countriesin the world more religious than the USA are in the middle east.
I Called bullshit and pointed out latin america. and you link something that only touches on religion in america?I still call bullshit

And where do any of those passages call it a deadly sin?
Do you even know what the term "deadly sin" means?
Please learn of what you speak before spouting terms like "deadly sin"
Which is a term created by catholic doctrine not the bible.
Matter of fact there is no such think as a "deadly sin" in the bible

So again please quote me a passage where it is stated it is a "deadly sin"
Still Bet you can't

http://www.prolades.com/amertbl06.htm

more than 50% of those countries have higher % of atheists than the united states.

[chtulu]

http://www.prolades.com/amertbl06.htm

more than 50% of those countries have higher % of atheists than the united states.

We could also go with wikipedia, who has several sources for the polling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism



* Uruguay – 17.2% Atheist or Agnostic[38]
* Argentina – 11.3% "indifferent towards religion" (including agnostic and atheists) [39]
* Chile – 8.3% Atheist or Agnostic [40]
* Brazil – 7.4% Non-Religious[41]
* Colombia – 1.9% Non-religious [42]
* Peru – 1.4% Non-religious as of 1993[43]
* Paraguay – 1.1% Non-religious [44]

[skulldudes]

so was arguing woman's suffrage.

hahahahahaha

you can't be real

you're fucking with me

[chtulu]

hahahahahaha

you can't be real

you're fucking with me

Religion promoted women as objects of man. Also, blacks were inferior and anyone with dark skin were born from satan.

[Theldios]

http://www.prolades.com/amertbl06.htm

more than 50% of those countries have higher % of atheists than the united states.

Again I call bullshit. you stated no other country has a higher %pop of people who are religious that the us except for middle east.
Even your own link shows almost every latin america country in fact has a higher population % of people with religious belifs.
Your original statment had nothing to do with % of atheists.and BTW the non on your survey link also includes those who declined to answer
So yet again you have twisted something to fit your idea..Oh wait is this not what you are acusing religion of doing. Hypocrite

[chtulu]

Again I call bullshit. you stated no other country has a higher %pop of people who are religious that the us except for middle east.
Even your own link shows almost every latin america country in fact has a higher population % of people with religious belifs.
Your original statment had nothing to do with % of atheists.and BTW the non on your survey link also includes those who declined to answer
So yet again you have twisted something to fit your idea..Oh wait is this not what you are acusing religion of doing. Hypocrite

explain to me how if the other countries have a high % of atheists/buddhists than how can they also have a higher % of religious believers? Unless you are trying to exceed 100%.

Also, people who decline to answer I am willing to bet are atheists but, of course, are too afraid to admit it due to the fact that atheists are persecuted more than any other minority.

[skulldudes]

Religion promoted women as objects of man. Also, blacks were inferior and anyone with dark skin were born from satan.

WHAT? NO, I'VE NEVER HEARD OF SUCH THINGS, THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE? :eek:

[Daldolma]

Exactly, thank you for proving my point. Without religion, that would be one less reason to have an excuse for bigotry and intolerance. It's just a visage to cover pure and simple, hate for anything different then the opinions of the movers and shakers in the churches.

I think you're missing the point. The bigotry and intolerance wouldn't dissipate with the removal of religion. It would just take on some new manifestation. Ironically, the argument against homosexuality would probably jump to scientific dogma. It's already started. Something along the lines of, "homosexuality doesn't promote reproduction, thus doesn't contribute to evolution, and ultimately hurts the species".

It's a prejudice that has existed for literally thousands of years. It's not going away by removing an institution that is, at a minimum, half a thousand years younger. Combating prejudice against homosexuals, much like combating racial, religious, and gender-based prejudice, relies almost entirely upon education. Again, the problem is ignorance -- not religion.

[chtulu]

I think you're missing the point. The bigotry and intolerance wouldn't dissipate with the removal of religion. It would just take on some new manifestation. Ironically, the argument against homosexuality would probably jump to scientific dogma. It's already started. Something along the lines of, "homosexuality doesn't promote reproduction, thus doesn't contribute to evolution, and ultimately hurts the species".

It's a prejudice that has existed for literally thousands of years. It's not going away by removing an institution that is, at a minimum, half a thousand years younger. Combating prejudice against homosexuals, much like combating racial, religious, and gender-based prejudice, relies almost entirely upon education. Again, the problem is ignorance -- not religion.

Religion promotes education against all those things. Science doesn't perverse it's way into civil rights, unless you can give me an example?

[Daldolma]

Religion promoted women as objects of man. Also, blacks were inferior and anyone with dark skin were born from satan.

You have got to be kidding me.

Women as objects of man has existed for just about as long as mankind has existed. In fact, there are probably more than a few zoologists that would argue male ownership of woman originated in the animal kingdom, before man even existed.

Ditto for prejudice against blacks -- but don't limit it to blacks. Prejudice against basically every ethnic group but your own was exceptionally prevalent long before organized religion existed. Again, it could be argued that this has roots in the animal kingdom.

You're blaming religion for prejudices and viewpoints that existed literally thousands and thousands of years before the birth of organized religion, and have continued to exist independently of religion. Hell, this stuff existed before the birth of organized society. Male ownership of woman is a defining trait of dozens of African tribes to this very day. They're not exactly Judeo-Christian.

[Theldios]

explain to me how if the other countries have a high % of atheists/buddhists than how can they also have a higher % of religious believers? Unless you are trying to exceed 100%.

Also, people who decline to answer I am willing to bet are atheists but, of course, are too afraid to admit it due to the fact that atheists are persecuted more than any other minority.

Can you not even read the link you posted
cath pro other none
USA - TOTAL POP. 2005 25.0 50.0 17.0 8.0 100% POLL =92% relgious

COSTA RICA 2009 71.0 20.0 2.0 7.0 100% POLL CID-GALLUP, AUG 2009 =93% religious

PANAMA 2003 66.7 24.0 4.3 5.0 100% POLL CID-GALLUP POLL, SEPT 2003 =95% religious
And this isj ust 2 that prove you wrong form your own so called proof

So again tell me that only in the middle east are there countries more religious than the USA
I call bullshit

Still waiting to see what bullshit answer your going to invent for "deadly sin"

[Daldolma]

Religion promotes education against all those things. Science doesn't perverse it's way into civil rights, unless you can give me an example?

Of course it does. The Holocaust was a prime example -- it was meant as a racial cleansing. They were trying to eliminate genetic pollution, for lack of a better term. That's based on science, just as much as anti-homosexual sentiment is based on religion. Both are completely convoluted misinterpretations, used by bigots with agendas to confirm and legitimize their own prejudices.

[john_savage1982]

What does religion give emotionally that a spouse can't, or a hobby or personal achievement?

Or do you mean it emotionally soothes people who are afraid of the unknown and/or death? Because I feel emotionally satisfied without believing there is a bearded man in space.

What does belief in an intangible super being give you that things in the real world can't other than a false sense of security when you're on your death bed?

If you meant this in seriously then this is exactly the emotional shallowness and ignorance of religion that I was referring to in my post. For many genuine believers, religion isn't about achieving feelings you get from things you experience on earth through your body. Religion acts more as a vehicle to experiencing outside the body - to experience the soul, the outside. This theme of connecting with the "outside" or as some academics call "the other" is present throughout most religions. Keep in mind that not all religions are monotheistic. Religion comes in all forms. Some don't even believe in any super-beings.

I'm curious, when you refer to "false sense of security when you're on your death bed" I start to wonder about your proximity to death in terms of your current health/age. Why do you invalidate peoples' sense of security through belief in god by calling it false? Perhaps what people feel is real - to them - and like I mentioned in my previous post, why is it so easy for people to ignore an entire aspect of being human? Are feelings not legitimate unless they have a definable causal reason related to physical phenomenon?

[john_savage1982]

Religion promotes education against all those things. Science doesn't perverse it's way into civil rights, unless you can give me an example?

The 20th century was one big struggle with science and industrialization. Go research eugenics and the 19th and 20th century. I'm not giving you sources it's a pretty major part of the 19th and 20th century.

[chtulu]

If you meant this in seriously then this is exactly the emotional shallowness and ignorance of religion that I was referring to in my post. For many genuine believers, religion isn't about achieving feelings you get from things you experience on earth through your body. Religion acts more as a vehicle to experiencing outside the body - to experience the soul, the outside. This theme of connecting with the "outside" or as some academics call "the other" is present throughout most religions. Keep in mind that not all religions are monotheistic. Religion comes in all forms. Some don't even believe in any super-beings.

I'm curious, when you refer to "false sense of security when you're on your death bed" I start to wonder about your proximity to death in terms of your current health/age. Why do you invalidate peoples' sense of security through belief in god by calling it false? Perhaps what people feel is real - to them - and like I mentioned in my previous post, why is it so easy for people to ignore an entire aspect of being human? Are feelings not legitimate unless they have a definable causal reason related to physical phenomenon?

Placebo effect. Just because they think they feel something doesn't mean anything. Also, you're quite presumption, throwing around the word soul. I believe people like that are delusional. But if course, if you get enough people who feel that way, it's a religion.

[chtulu]

Of course it does. The Holocaust was a prime example -- it was meant as a racial cleansing. They were trying to eliminate genetic pollution, for lack of a better term. That's based on science, just as much as anti-homosexual sentiment is based on religion. Both are completely convoluted misinterpretations, used by bigots with agendas to confirm and legitimize their own prejudices.


Is it ever fair to hold a historical figure personally responsible for all the future unbidden and unforeseeable consequences of all that he or she has said or done? Was Jesus responsible for the Inquisition or Muhammad for 9/11? Can we blame Newton and his laws of motion for the damage caused by cruise missiles? And even where one can establish a chain of causal links between scientific discoveries and their subsequent abuses, does this mean that we must belittle the discovery or close down future research?


Protestant Christians are on the shakiest ground when using this argument, as it allows us to indict Martin Luther for the Holocaust, with his On The Jews and their Lies (1543), which was avidly quoted by Hitler. Chillingly, the first of ten recommendations from Luther was “First to set fire to their synagogues or schools...” Should we really blame Luther for Kristallnacht?


In fact, Nazi ideology was derived from a range of ideas and beliefs, which included anti-Semitism, militaristic Nationalism, anti-Capitalism and anti-Communism. The Nazis also blended a distorted German Christian tradition with Nordic mythology and derived their zest for eugenics as much from ancient Sparta as from any modern sources. The influence of evolutionary thinking on Hitler was, if anything, very minor: nowhere in Mein Kampf does he mention Darwin, natural selection or biological evolution. In fact, in the first edition of the book, Hitler comes across as a young Earth creationist, claiming at one point that “this planet will, as it did thousands of years ago, move through the ether devoid of men”.


The film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed misappropriates the Holocaust and its imagery as a part of its political effort to discredit the scientific community which rejects so-called intelligent design theory.

Hitler did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people and Darwin and evolutionary theory cannot explain Hitler's genocidal madness.

Using the Holocaust in order to tarnish those who promote the theory of evolution is outrageous and trivializes the complex factors that led to the mass extermination of European Jewry.

off of

http://www.zimbio.com/Richard+Dawkins/articles/48/Dawkins+Darwin+economics+Hitler

[chtulu]

Not only is science corrosive to religion, but religion is also corrosive to science. It teaches people to be satisfied with trivial super natural not explanations and blind them to wonderful real explanations that we have within our grasp. it teaches to accept authority, revelation and faith instead of always insisting of evidence.

http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_dawkins_on_militant_atheism.html

I really wish everyone who has any interest in gaining knowledge, whether you're atheist or not, would watch this clip. It explains and answers a lot of questions about why religion is harmful in today's society and the arguments that religion tries to bring up against evolution.

[chtulu]

This is why I am a militant atheist and am insulted by anyone who feels that religion should be respected and be left alone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaJelU29jeI&feature=related

[jilena]

If god was real, my ranger would have a cloak of flames. I mean seriously.

[Seeatee]

1. I love the way you wrangle EVERYONE who is religious or believes in god into one category, because you know, every single person ever, everywhere must believe the exact same thing and behave in the exact same way.

2. this whole thread is completely invalid right from the start because you are calling people who share a different opinion then yours idiots, there is and can never be any middle ground or shades of grey.

I am a Christian, I try and go to church every Sunday, I believe in god, I DO NOT blindly follow and or believe everything I am told, I do realize that church is a man made corruptible institution, I realize that the bible was cobbled together under very shady circumstances and that a lot of information was left out.

my 3 favorite bands are Ozzy Osbourne, Black Label Society, and Slayer.

I cuss like a sailor and am a total gore hound when it comes to movies, I also have a firm belief that all horror movies need more topless women in them.

I do believe in evolution, there is a lot of evidence to support it , I don't understand why we can't have our cake and eat it too on this one, god is all powerful entity who can pretty much do anything he wants anytime he wants, so why is it impossible that evolution was gods plan for creating man from the start?

do you still believe everyone who believes in god can be lumped into the same category? do I fit into your predefined box of what makes a Christian and or someone who believes in god?

to end, I would like to add that there is no way anyone can be 100% certain one way or the other, all the faith in the world can not prove god exists, and at the same time all the lack of evidence that god exists is not evidence that god does not exist - no matter what argument any makes no matter how passionate or well thought out and worded - no body can ever physically prove 100% one way or the other if god is real or not, so the best we can do is believe what we believe and keep our opinions to our selfs.

:cool:

[Chanus]

Cthulu.

I don't think you actually understand the meaning of a single term or definition you've thrown out in this entire thread.

Maybe stop linking things other people have said and actually put in the effort to understand these things yourself.

Your entire argument has come down to, "But this guy said this!" At the same time, you've thrown around terms like "placebo effect" and in the same sentence demonstrated you have no idea what that actually means.

[Misto]

the creator of this thread trolls hardcore!

[Daldolma]

Is it ever fair to hold a historical figure personally responsible for all the future unbidden and unforeseeable consequences of all that he or she has said or done? Was Jesus responsible for the Inquisition or Muhammad for 9/11? Can we blame Newton and his laws of motion for the damage caused by cruise missiles? And even where one can establish a chain of causal links between scientific discoveries and their subsequent abuses, does this mean that we must belittle the discovery or close down future research?


Protestant Christians are on the shakiest ground when using this argument, as it allows us to indict Martin Luther for the Holocaust, with his On The Jews and their Lies (1543), which was avidly quoted by Hitler. Chillingly, the first of ten recommendations from Luther was “First to set fire to their synagogues or schools...” Should we really blame Luther for Kristallnacht?


In fact, Nazi ideology was derived from a range of ideas and beliefs, which included anti-Semitism, militaristic Nationalism, anti-Capitalism and anti-Communism. The Nazis also blended a distorted German Christian tradition with Nordic mythology and derived their zest for eugenics as much from ancient Sparta as from any modern sources. The influence of evolutionary thinking on Hitler was, if anything, very minor: nowhere in Mein Kampf does he mention Darwin, natural selection or biological evolution. In fact, in the first edition of the book, Hitler comes across as a young Earth creationist, claiming at one point that “this planet will, as it did thousands of years ago, move through the ether devoid of men”.


The film Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed misappropriates the Holocaust and its imagery as a part of its political effort to discredit the scientific community which rejects so-called intelligent design theory.

Hitler did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people and Darwin and evolutionary theory cannot explain Hitler's genocidal madness.

Using the Holocaust in order to tarnish those who promote the theory of evolution is outrageous and trivializes the complex factors that led to the mass extermination of European Jewry.

off of

http://www.zimbio.com/Richard+Dawkins/articles/48/Dawkins+Darwin+economics+Hitler

You need to re-read that article, because it's not saying what you think it is. It's arguing that the abuses of scientific discoveries are not grounds for belittling or ceasing scientific exploration, and that you can't use events like the Holocaust to tarnish the theory of evolution.

I agree completely. It's exactly the point I've been making regarding religion. The fact that someone misinterprets something and uses it for evil does not make the entire institution evil. If the US government comes out with a law that "Man may not harm other man", and some asshole interprets that to mean crimes against women are legal, is the US government the problem? Of course not. When you talk about religion, you act as if it's some hyper-organized ruling party. Who determines what is "religion"? In the opinion of the vast majority of religious people in America, it's some combination of God (and His scripture), Jesus, and Mohammad. If you can find me a single quote in the Old or New Testament, or from the lips of Jesus or Mohammad, that addresses abortion or stem cell research, we can call off this argument. The fact is, no such quote exists. It's a Rorschach test. If you read the Bible and determine abortion is ungodly, it's because you were pro-life before you ever sat down with the book. Similarly, if you believe in ethnic cleansing and eugenics, it's because you were a bigot before you knew the difference between a dominant and recessive allele.

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

No one who ever died has ever come back. Religions (basically) all claim that there is an immortal soul that does not die with the body. Since this rather central claim has never been upheld by observable evidence, the rational person is compelled to believe that the claim is in all likely-hood false. Fairy tales. Conjecture. Childish. Motivated primarily by Man's fundamental inability to cope with death.

[Chanus]

No one who ever died has ever come back. Religions (basically) all claim that there is an immortal soul that does not die with the body. Since this rather central claim has never been upheld by observable evidence, the rational person is compelled to believe that the claim is in all likely-hood false. Fairy tales. Conjecture. Childish. Motivated primarily by Man's fundamental inability to cope with death.

This is probably one of the dumber attempts at an argument I've ever read.

[AexDestroy]

This is probably one of the dumber attempts at an argument I've ever read.

second that.

[AexDestroy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Qing_Yuen

For those with any spiritual sense about health and reality.

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

Just trying to boil down the issue to its fundamentals - one group of people believes in something very strongly for which there is no palpable reason to believe, while another group holds the threshold for belief to be rooted in observable phenomena. Simple, but not dumb. You're a dummy, dummy! Nya nya!

[Bones]

There's no burden on me, I never claimed to believe in a god.

There is no harm in believing or not believing in whatever fanciful imaginings one can construct for him- or herself, yet for some reason so-called atheists can not sleep at night without demanding the existence of a god be proven.

There is no need to prove the existence of a god for people who believe. It serves no purpose; they already have their faith.

Why someone who doesn't believe must so vehemently attack the harmless faith of others is ludicrous.

You may claim faith causes war, genocide, bigotry, or any number of things, but the truth is those are caused by greed. Causality and correlation have distinct meanings. Often people who perpetuate evil upon others use their faith as a crutch, but it is their greed that truly motivates them.

There are as many, if not more people who are faithful and do acts of good... just as there are plenty who have no faith and go acts of good or evil.

Your crusade to prove to anyone with faith that he or she is wrong serves no purpose other than to reaffirm your own choices due to some insecurity in your beliefs or misguided anger toward those you feel have done wrong.
As entertaining as this thread has been, it should have stopped after this post.

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

I agree. It's mean to tell children Santa Claus doesn't exist.

[vincin]

If you dont believe in god, then you also dont believe people have souls. You are also more likely not to believe other things without facts or evidence. Of course it makes logical sense that anything not visible to the human eye doesnt exist, but god is spiritual, not human, so arguing about something you dont have and cant back up doesnt make sense. Many famous scientists also say the universe is so perfect an complex that it would almost be impossible not to be created by a higher power. In conclusion, if you dont believe in a higher power, or an afterlife...then whats the point of living? Then evolution theories dont prove anything. They shouldnt even compare humans to animals, because its obvious humans have something animals lack....(a soul). Which a soul cant be scientifically tested so there is no proof of it, which leads me back to the top of the loop of confusion. END RESULT: Believer are not dumb for being spiritual and unbelivers arent dumb because they dont want to believe anything in life that they cant prove because they think their human brain can obtain the knowledge of everything.

[teganyavo]

"imagine for a moment that you could dream any dream you wanted to dream--and, each night, you could make your dream last for what appeared to be 75 years of total time. Or any length of time you wanted to have. What would you do with this? Naturally, as you began on this adventure of dreams, you would fulfill all your wishes. You would have every kind of pleasure imaginable, and satisfy every curiosity. You would visit every place, and see every thing--and after several nights of 75 years of total pleasure each, you would say "Wow, that was pretty great! But now lets have a dream that isn't under control." Well, naturally, something unexpected must happen. And you would go through your dream with slightly less control than before, and when the unexpected happened, you would say "My, that was a close shave, wasn't it?" And you would proceed on like this, relinquishing more and more control, and making further and further gambles, until eventually, you would dream where you are now. You would dream the dream of living the life that you are actually living today."

-Alan Watts

atman imo. The idea of an eternal being that would send a disappointing experiment to a place where it would consciously be tortured for eternity is, imo, the most ridiculously stupid shit I can possibly imagine

[vincin]

If you were God what would you do?

[boboo]

If you were God what would you do?

Patrick Stewart explains what i would do:

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[chtulu]

What I don't get why some people here claim to be Christan or religious and follow a certain church, but yet admit that they hardly follow any of the doctrine or scripture. If you're going to be that liberal and cherry pick what you like in the Bible, Koran, etc, then why label yourself at all? These books and religions clearly state you must follow their rules and philosophies or you will burn in eternal damnation.

My real question is WHY believe in ANY God? Why choose to be satisfied with fairy tales to explain natural phenomenons that are already explained by science? Science shows us that the universe is much for vast than what any God explains to us. It also has shown us how vastly more complex life on earth is than just saying it was randomly put here by some egotistical being who just wants to be worshiped by lesser beings.

Another point I'd like to make is even if there WAS a god, look at all the horrible things that has happened to this world that he has allowed to happen. Look at utterly incompetent he is with his "work". I'm sure no one has cared to realize that over 90% of life that has even been on earth is now extinct. If there was a great and all knowing God, why would he have created entire, just to have it destroyed and wiped away forever? Either he is an Incompetent God, or he is an Evil God, that enjoys suffering and annihilation.

I'd suggest watching "God on Trial". It's a very well done piece of work that judges God by his actions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP4i6tRGw7Q

[boboo]

Another vid you can check out to see the worst in christians is "Doomsday code" which is a documentary on apocalyptic christians.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6439295521791525424#

[Alawen Everywhere]

What I don't get why some people here claim to be Christan or religious and follow a certain church, but yet admit that they hardly follow any of the doctrine or scripture. If you're going to be that liberal and cherry pick what you like in the Bible, Koran, etc, then why label yourself at all? These books and religions clearly state you must follow their rules and philosophies or you will burn in eternal damnation.

My real question is WHY believe in ANY God? Why choose to be satisfied with fairy tales to explain natural phenomenons that are already explained by science? Science shows us that the universe is much for vast than what any God explains to us. It also has shown us how vastly more complex life on earth is than just saying it was randomly put here by some egotistical being who just wants to be worshiped by lesser beings.

Another point I'd like to make is even if there WAS a god, look at all the horrible things that has happened to this world that he has allowed to happen. Look at utterly incompetent he is with his "work". I'm sure no one has cared to realize that over 90% of life that has even been on earth is now extinct. If there was a great and all knowing God, why would he have created entire, just to have it destroyed and wiped away forever? Either he is an Incompetent God, or he is an Evil God, that enjoys suffering and annihilation.

I'd suggest watching "God on Trial". It's a very well done piece of work that judges God by his actions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP4i6tRGw7Q

What's amazing here is that the loud atheist is the most closed-minded person in an argument about religion.

I'm going to repeat myself once more and then relegate you to the "not so bright" pile.

Religion is not about dogma, literal interpretations of sacred texts and nitpicking for most of the religious. It's about socializing and community. People go to church to be part of something larger than themselves. They go to church because they get something from the traditions, or the companionship, or the gospel choir, or a million other reasons that are not the written mythology of their cult.

Most people just believe in some sort of vaguely defined force of good in the universe--some kind of embodiment of mercy, kindness, justice and other idealized virtues. No one really thinks there is a robed sky god sitting on a golden throne in the clouds.

Mostly, they want to not feel alone and afraid. They want to have an idea of why they're here and what they're supposed to do while they're here. Most religions espouse a belief of trying to be a good person while they're alive.

Do you really have a huge issue with that? I think your mom made you go to church and you're kind of pissed off about it. I'd say try to get over it. Live and let live.

Pray with me.

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith.
Where there is despair, hope.
Where there is darkness, light.
Where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Now was that so bad?

[chtulu]

Religion only cheapens our existence here. It literally devalues our lives by saying there is something greater after this. I find that tragic and believe that we should love this life more than anything because it's the only one we get.

Also, your argument about church being about community can be used to rationalize why the KKK exists. Sure, they teach hate, intolerance, and above all, teach that they are the superior ones, while everyone else are lesser beings; but hey, if it brings a community together, than it MUST be healthy and good for society, right?

[Alawen Everywhere]

Do you know the difference between rationalizing something and explaining it?

You're going to have a bitch of a life if you get this worked up about how other people explain the world to themselves and try to convert them with insults and condescension.

Incidentally, I'm 100% atheist. I believe that we're here because we're here and when we die we cease to exist. I am not afraid of the void before I was born and I am not afraid of the void that will follow. I also believe that it is important to try to be a good man while I walk this planet.

And so, with that in mind, I am going to go cut up a pineapple.

[boboo]

Religion only cheapens our existence here. It literally devalues our lives by saying there is something greater after this. I find that tragic and believe that we should love this life more than anything because it's the only one we get.

Also, your argument about church being about community can be used to rationalize why the KKK exists. Sure, they teach hate, intolerance, and above all, teach that they are the superior ones, while everyone else are lesser beings; but hey, if it brings a community together, than it MUST be healthy and good for society, right?

Cthulu im an atheist, but it doesnt mean im right. Its a belief, just like any other. Saying "because its the only one we get" as if its law is rather presumptuous. I agree its the only life we get, and the videos youve linked about atheism I am in accord with. But im only 99.99% sure that when I die its over. There is absolutely no way for me to be sure until i check out of here. For you to say "because its the only one we get" as if its self-evident truth makes you sound like a dogmatic religious person, which you are railing against.

[boboo]

I hate religions because it makes life cheap. It makes people care less about ameliorating their condition here for some pie-in-the-sky dreampipe.

[Slathar]

I hate religions because it makes life cheap. It makes people care less about ameliorating their condition here for some pie-in-the-sky dreampipe.

but oh my god if you dont believe in climate change you're a hateful idiot who hates everything and i hate you ahhhhhh *watches al gore movie 84 times*

[chtulu]

Cthulu im an atheist, but it doesnt mean im right. Its a belief, just like any other. Saying "because its the only one we get" as if its law is rather presumptuous. I agree its the only life we get, and the videos youve linked about atheism I am in accord with. But im only 99.99% sure that when I die its over. There is absolutely no way for me to be sure until i check out of here. For you to say "because its the only one we get" as if its self-evident truth makes you sound like a dogmatic religious person, which you are railing against.

it's not about being right, it's about the fact that religion is used to pass laws, to sway civil right changes, and over all control Government legislation. I have a problem with religion because it perpetuates ignorance and it insults our intelligence and tries to destroy our need to explain WHY things exist they way they are by simply saying that a GOD did everything.

I would be 100% fine with people believing in God if it try to corrode science with Sunday schools and people using religion to try to say evolution doesn't exist, or that stem cell shouldn't be used because it violates their imaginary friend's law and when corrupt leaders get tax exemptions and profit off the meek because they lead a religion. When things like this occur, it is time to put a stop to religion as a protected entity.

[chtulu]

but oh my god if you dont believe in climate change you're a hateful idiot who hates everything and i hate you ahhhhhh *watches al gore movie 84 times*

where in this thread was climate change, or anything about nature presented? Take your ignorance somewhere else.

[chtulu]

but oh my god if you dont believe in climate change you're a hateful idiot who hates everything and i hate you ahhhhhh *watches al gore movie 84 times*

And by the way, Al Gore is an idiot. He's no better than any other politician or pseudo-activist who tries to use the shock effect to get results.

[Daldolma]

Does it make life cheap? Do you believe your lives have been enriched through atheism? I find it interesting that anyone feels like they are in a position to judge what adds value to a human life. Is reading Aristotle any more "valuable" to a human life than reading the Bible? How, exactly, is the belief that this is your one and only life more valuable than the belief in an eternal soul? Is a three-hour session of Project 1999 more valuable than a three-hour session of Church?

It takes some serious narcissism to believe that you can answer any of those questions.

[chtulu]

Does it make life cheap? Do you believe your lives have been enriched through atheism? I find it interesting that anyone feels like they are in a position to judge what adds value to a human life. Is reading Aristotle any more "valuable" to a human life than reading the Bible? How, exactly, is the belief that this is your one and only life more valuable than the belief in an eternal soul? Is a three-hour session of Project 1999 more valuable than a three-hour session of Church?

It takes some serious narcissism to believe that you can answer any of those questions.

Human life should be measured in what you do while you live, and the good you do. Not whether or not you've done ENOUGH to go to a heaven.

[chtulu]

Does it make life cheap? Do you believe your lives have been enriched through atheism? I find it interesting that anyone feels like they are in a position to judge what adds value to a human life. Is reading Aristotle any more "valuable" to a human life than reading the Bible? How, exactly, is the belief that this is your one and only life more valuable than the belief in an eternal soul? Is a three-hour session of Project 1999 more valuable than a three-hour session of Church?

It takes some serious narcissism to believe that you can answer any of those questions.

Hence why atheism promotes doing good for goodness sake. Religion tries to sell people on a superficial belief that you'll be rewarded at the end. Hence why Atheists can be deemed more selfless than religious people.

[Alawen Everywhere]

By an odd coincidence, I am currently attempting to struggle through "Ars Rhetorica." I'm pretty impressed by Aristotle.

I've also read the Bible. I'm less impressed with that. It's so butchered from hundreds of years of willful manipulation that it's pretty much gibberish.

At the same time, I'm also impressed by Linus Pauling, who said, "The best way to have a good idea is to have a lot of ideas." Personally, I think everyone should learn everything they can and think and judge for themselves.

My pineapple is pretty good, too.

Also, a giant turtle.

[Daldolma]

Why should human life be measured by what good you do while you live? How is that any less arbitrary than to say life should be measured by God after you die? And there are plenty of atheists that believe life should be measured by the maximization of pleasure and enjoyment, not good. Or the pursuit of truth. Or the pursuit of beauty. There are many, many theories as to how one should value a human life, and absolutely none of them are empirically correct.

But in the case of the atheist, who's measuring, anyway? Post-death is a blank void. To the atheist, life has no "greater meaning" -- it is what it is. Meaning there is no value, except to the person living it. In which case, you choose your own meaning. And if that's the case, if you want to live a life devoted to religion, and that's what makes you happiest and most fulfilled, that's exactly what you should do. Whether or not that religion is valid.

The harsh anti-religion stance doesn't even stand up to atheist logic, which is the irony in the whole matter. Atheists believe there is no meaning and everyone should choose to live life the way they see fit, not the way some religion tells them to. You can live in pursuit of truth, justice, beauty, love, pleasure -- anything but God. Doesn't seem real logical to me. Theoretically speaking, the atheist should be more tolerant of religion than anyone.

[Slathar]

where in this thread was climate change, or anything about nature presented? Take your ignorance somewhere else.

oh no ive been called out on an internet forum guys

lets talk about why climate change isnt real