If you believe in god, you're an idiot...

[azxten]

All scientific knowledge is gained though observation of phenomena and the postulation of hypotheses. The hypothesis that best explains the phenomena is used until a better one is found. Science therefore goes through continual self examination, ideas are held up to be criticized and this is the scientific methods great strength.

There is no 'faith' in this method of obtaining knowledge.

Religions on the other hand are rigidly defined belief systems based upon faith.

The problem is that people do have "faith" in the method itself as savior of humanity. Sure, there's no faith in a given piece of knowledge but there is a LOT of faith in the form of "we have to push onward because science will fix everything in the end" while ignoring the problems it creates.

In my opinion the "science crazed" portion of society has forgotten that science and technology are supposed to exist to serve humanity. Instead we're entering an era where humanity is serving science and the end goals aren't very clear. The same risk exists with our business and financial institutions. Do the banks and corporations exist to serve and uplift humanity or does humanity now exist to serve and uplift the banks and corporations? These institutions are entities in and of themselves just like you are composed of the living cells in your body.

Religion reinvents itself all the time as well even within specific religions. To use your quote it "goes through continual self examination, ideas are held up to be criticized." Even within religions like Catholicism and Christianity within the last few hundred years the mindset has shifted dramatically in terms of the intent of religious teachings, their true translations, and so on. In light of new evidence and theories there are new religions and theologies created. It evolves exactly the same as science and just as fast.

There is a saying you're probably familiar with regarding, "How can you be moral without God?" Many atheists will spout something about how they don't believe in God and are completely moral people. It's hard to separate your ideals of morality though when society as a whole has been guided since the start by religion and spirituality. Is it really that you're moral without God or it just that your morality stems from society which is always influence by God more than any other factor? Where might humanity be right now if the dominant religion said it was fine to kill your neighbor because you like his wife? At one point in time it's very likely religion DID say that in at least one tribe somewhere. That doesn't make for a very healthy society though and so the religion that worked better for a given society granted them the power to conquer others and bring them into line with God thus continuing the evolutionary cycle.

In my mind both science and rational thought should work hand in hand with religion and spirituality as they exist in separate realms. Instead what we have is a football team and a hockey team playing on the same field and the outcome is going to be a big pile of shit that NO ONE is going to like. Just wait and see.

[azxten]

P.S. The primary "difference" between faith and religion is evidence. You might argue that science is based on evidence and is thus superior but how can you make such an argument when over and over again the evidence is shown to be bogus?

As example comes to mind regarding the faith people had that new brain cells aren't created. The majority of scientists supported this viewpoint based on the evidence obtained using the scientific method in a lab. It turns out though that by putting monkeys in a lab they removed the dynamic environment necessary to produce new brain cells. It was only later with the study of birds in their natural environment that we saw that new brain cells were being created.

The history of science if full of these situations where the researchers are so bias they distort their own results to support their viewpoints. If it's not that then the observation itself changes the results. Maybe our tools were just lying to us the whole time. On and on.

Meanwhile the results that science is producing from these ultimately flawed experiments are being spread from the scientific community as "the truth" and "the way it is". Is it not a leap of faith to believe that's the truth? Don't you have to have faith that the experiment was done right? The researchers stayed true to non-bias? That somewhere on a quantum level shit just got wild because you peeked and have no idea what you're REALLY even doing in the first place?

Of course you do. In the exact same way the religion requires faith in spiritual leaders to tell them what is holy or good. Until new evidence arises in either case all we have is faith in an ideal that is produced by imperfect beings.

The problem arises when people are unable to let go when evidence points out the flaws in their faith. A further problem arises when people are unwilling to admit that new evidence might itself be flawed and not actually disprove anything.

[Azazel]

There is a lot to respond to here. On just this one point:

Religion reinvents itself all the time as well even within specific religions. To use your quote it "goes through continual self examination, ideas are held up to be criticized." Even within religions like Catholicism and Christianity within the last few hundred years the mindset has shifted dramatically in terms of the intent of religious teachings, their true translations, and so on. In light of new evidence and theories there are new religions and theologies created. It evolves exactly the same as science and just as fast.

Religous doctrine is rigid. Yes it does change, but rarely (your own example is of a few hundred years) and is often in necessary response to social pressures. The reformation did not happen in light of new evidence but rather came about because of social / political / economic reasons (and Martin Luther).

Science understanding however changes daily. Just take a look at any scientific journal and each publication will be in same way be a refutation or expansion on previous theory.

It is in the very nature of religion (at least the Abrahimic ones) to be inflexible for they proclaim themselves to be truth.

[Messianic]

So what's the Atheist deathcount for the past century? Stalin with his 15+ Million, Mao with his 40+ Million? Lots of tolerance from those atheistic societies.

I'll say this regarding the title of this thread - if you're a dogmatic atheist with a hatred for religion (i.e. a true atheist, not merely a hard agnostic), you're just as stupid as those whose religions you hate.

[Beauregard]

So what's the Atheist deathcount for the past century? Stalin with his 15+ Million, Mao with his 40+ Million? Lots of tolerance from those atheistic societies.

I'll say this regarding the title of this thread - if you're a dogmatic atheist with a hatred for religion (i.e. a true atheist, not merely a hard agnostic), you're just as stupid as those whose religions you hate.

Act's done by atheists, not in the name of Atheism itself. Let that not be confused with the Inquisition, Crusades, Al Qaida, Teahadists, etc.

[Hauling]

In my opinion the "science crazed" portion of society has forgotten that science and technology are supposed to exist to serve humanity. Instead we're entering an era where humanity is serving science and the end goals aren't very clear. The same risk exists with our business and financial institutions. Do the banks and corporations exist to serve and uplift humanity or does humanity now exist to serve and uplift the banks and corporations? These institutions are entities in and of themselves just like you are composed of the living cells in your body.



Science isn't an institution. It's a method used to learn how things work. I think that's a pretty clear goal. You first wonder how or why something happens and you come up with an idea. For instance, you might wonder where wind comes from and maybe you think that it could be trees sneezing. You then test that idea and see if the idea fits, you might throw chili powder on a tree to induce sneezing and when they don't sneeze, you come up with another idea and test that until you get to the real answer; areas of high air pressure push air into areas of low air pressure. And even once you have that answer, you test it multiple times to see if your results are consistent. Then you give it to other people to test to see if they can get the same results too.

Science and religion are the same thing, except religion doesn't bother to test the ideas. I am confident that as our understanding of things improve, through the scientific method we will find a way to test the existence of a god or gods (though probably not in our life times). I am also confident that whatever is found out won't be consistent with the views you have now.

[Hauling]

I am also confident that whatever is found out won't be consistent with the views you have now.

And just to clarify by "you" I mean "we", not just you specifically.

[Tumdumm]

oh my science

[Alawen Everywhere]

This is a super amusing turn the thread has taken. The big problem in the world is too much science. Got it. Quick, let's all email Obama that the key to winning the future is teaching creationism and going to Bible college.

[Slathar]

If you look at the countries with the best education systems and social welfare programs (math/science/foreign language) you can see that these countries are largely pro-evolution.

Finland, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Denmark are just a few examples, but there are more. These countries are overwhelmingly subscribers of evolution without a magical being who made people out of clay and were tricked into evil by a talking snake at a magical tree that gave never-ending life if you ate it's fruit.

[Slathar]

If you look at the countries with the best education systems and social welfare programs (math/science/foreign language) you can see that these countries are largely pro-evolution.

Finland, Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Denmark are just a few examples, but there are more. These countries are overwhelmingly subscribers of evolution without a magical being who made people out of clay and were tricked into evil by a talking snake at a magical tree that gave never-ending life if you ate it's fruit.

Oops. The (math/science/foreign language) part should have been next to best education systems not social welfare programs. American education has failed me.

[Henini]

Oops. The (math/science/foreign language) part should have been next to best education systems not social welfare programs. American education has failed me.

these are also nations that have to manage their resources properly since they don't have much. It's very different there then it is in the USA.

[Humerox]

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4Vjsf1pVkiU" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

[Slathar]

these are also nations that have to manage their resources properly since they don't have much. It's very different there then it is in the USA.

great explanation of how its very different. not.

they have higher tax rates and a (gasp!) socialist government. sure there arent many mega rich people there but there are a whole lot of people with a house, food, job, and if they so wish, cars. they have health care and access to good education. if they so wish they can go to university which is mostly free to everyone.

but yet in the richest country in the world people are living on the streets in increasing numbers as our national education gets worse and worse. not to mention our decaying infrastructure. our airports are a joke compared to most international airports in the rest of the world.

this is largely due to belief in the "american dream" which is a falsehood and hasn't existed for half a century.

can't wait to move out of the states again :) forgot how awful this country is

[Harrison]

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, leech.

[Slathar]

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, leech.

im a leech? please tell me how :)

keep drinking the cool-aid, fascist.

[Kalifa]

if you want a house, food, job, a car, and health care then get out there and work for it lazy fucker

[Slathar]

if you want a house, food, job, a car, and health care then get out there and work for it lazy fucker

fat republican glenn beck watcher spotted

[Kalifa]

are you fucking serious? working hard makes you a glenn beck watcher........aight

[Slathar]

are you fucking serious? working hard makes you a glenn beck watcher........aight

you seem to think because people want equality in education and health care that makes you lazy. i would say this makes me more patriotic than any of the tea-party bigots. but keep voting against your own self-interests and tax breaks for the .05% of people who control over 85% of the money in the USA. let me know how that works out for ya brosef

[Kalifa]

im a 20 year old with 3 years left of pharmacy school....and when i get out and start making ~$110,000 im going to want to keep as much of that for myself as humanly possible, because i worked my ass off for it. if you had ever worked for something then i am sure you would feel the same way

[Slathar]

im a 20 year old with 3 years left of pharmacy school....and when i get out and start making ~$110,000 im going to want to keep as much of that for myself as humanly possible, because i worked my ass off for it. if you had ever worked for something then i am sure you would feel the same way

your salary is meaningless to me. also reading books and taking tests isn't hard work.

[Slathar]

im a 20 year old with 3 years left of pharmacy school....and when i get out and start making ~$110,000 im going to want to keep as much of that for myself as humanly possible, because i worked my ass off for it. if you had ever worked for something then i am sure you would feel the same way

3 years of pharmacy school left? last time i checked a full time pharmacy program was 3 years. so this implies that you're either just starting.

come back when you've actually finished. getting into school isn't hard if you have half a brain and can fill in bubbles.

[Kalifa]

yes, understanding advanced pharmacological theory is work. as is accumulating 1,500 hours of intern hours, 1,000 of which i have to PAY for, is work. are you high?

[Kalifa]

its 2 years undergrad 4 years professional.......

[Slathar]

yes, understanding advanced pharmacological theory is work. as is accumulating 1,500 hours of intern hours, 1,000 of which i have to GET FEDERAL LOANS for, is work. are you high?

no, but ive been through university and back for graduate school and you're just not impressive. keep thinking you'll be rich one day ;)

[Kalifa]

i dont have to take loans, because my dad has money saved up to pay for my education as well as my 3 siblings. because he worked hard too

[Slathar]

i dont have to take loans, because my dad has money saved up to pay for my education as well as my 3 siblings. because he worked hard too

this explains so much. hard work = dad paying for everything? loooool

you're a joke. have fun perpetuating the cycle of annoying, spoiled, entitled americans who only think of themselves.

[Kassel]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TBoZN9XKTPw/S0QO0kFgquI/AAAAAAAABzk/ZSdp6FmL3i0/s320/slapfight.jpg

[Slathar]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TBoZN9XKTPw/S0QO0kFgquI/AAAAAAAABzk/ZSdp6FmL3i0/s320/slapfight.jpg

you're stupid and irrelevant.

[Ruinous]

I know things!!!!

Feel my wrath as I bombard you with my well-endowed sense of knowledge over teh intrawebz!!!! About topics which no single human being could have a definitive answer on!!!1one

I mean really, who cares?

[Slathar]

I know things!!!!

Feel my wrath as I bombard you with my well-endowed sense of knowledge over teh intrawebz!!!! About topics which no single human being could have a definitive answer on!!!1one

I mean really, who cares?

yeah i mean who cares about government or policies that directly affect your daily life, that shit is for nerds lol lets raid

[Kalifa]

yeah, and im going to save up money for my children's educations.....whats your fucking point loser?

[Slathar]

yeah, and im going to save up money for my children's educations.....whats your fucking point loser?

get mad get real mad

[Kalifa]

i mean who is the spoiled, self entitled person.......

a)the person who keeps their nose to the grindstone, finishes school and supports themselves and their family

OR

b)the person who wants everything handed to them on a silver platter while they sit on their ass. aka you

[Slathar]

i mean who is the spoiled, self entitled person.......

a)the person who keeps their nose to the grindstone, finishes school and supports themselves and their family

OR

b)the person who wants everything handed to them on a silver platter while they sit on their ass. aka you

school isn't hard. you're the one who is having everything paid for by their daddy so im guessing you're the one who is sitting around on their ass not working while having an education delivered on a silver platter

get mad

[Ruinous]

yeah i mean who cares about government or policies that directly affect your daily life, that shit is for nerds lol lets raid

The point is that it's futile to concern yourself over the belief or lack thereof which others possess on topics which have no fucking assurances. I can think of better ways to spend my day, personally.

We all die. If you want to believe that you'll be reborn as a fucking butterfly, who am I to judge you or tell you otherwise? It's egotistical to think you possess any concrete knowledge on such matters in which you could base your judgement of others upon. In a world with no guarantee's other than nobody is getting out alive, who gives a fuck? <--- that's my point since it wasn't evident the first time.

[Slathar]

I can think of better ways to spend my day, personally.


great because your post was terrible. bye

[Kalifa]

haha. what graduate program are you in......art?

[Kalifa]

The point is that it's futile to concern yourself over the belief or lack thereof which others possess on topics which have no fucking assurances. I can think of better ways to spend my day, personally.

We all die. If you want to believe that you'll be reborn as a fucking butterfly, who am I to judge you or tell you otherwise? It's egotistical to think you possess any concrete knowledge on such matters in which you could base your judgement of others upon. In a world with no guarantee's other than nobody is getting out alive, who gives a fuck? <--- that's my point since it wasn't evident the first time.

it's called a debate man, they are pretty common in this world

[Ruinous]

great because your post was terrible. bye

I apologize. I'll begin taking notes on the overwhelming amount of useful input and information that yours contain, sir. Good day.

P.S. I wish I could get my kicks by trolling on forums with one-line responses. Ahh.. I remember when I was 14.....

[Slathar]

haha. what graduate program are you in......art?

are you seriously trying to belittle the utility of a graduate art program?

the arts have produced a substantial amount of work that has moved, motivated, changed, influenced, touched, informed, and inspired more people than any pill pushing pharmacist who live a boring lives in your suburban bubble with their boring family and their boring friends.

with that said, no im not in the arts.

[Kalifa]

i love how you still didn't answer the question. regardless, if can memorize the generics of 233 brand name drugs (for one class out of 8) without working at it, then you sir are my hero. needless to say, you can't. and i don't even see what boring has to do with any of this shit

[Alawen Everywhere]

Kalifa is going to be fucking ELITE at counting to 20.

The starting wage for a pharmacist is around $70K, not $110K, but I think you'll get a discount at the Walmart where you work.

[Hmend]

God vs. Science
"Let me explain the problem science has with religion."

The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'

'Absolutely '

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible! He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. 'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Er..yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'

The student doesn't hesitate on this one.. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student falters. 'From God'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'

Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'

'So who created them ?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues onto another student.

'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist... What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies.. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat? '

' Yes.

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested.. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we
would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy..

Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold.. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'

'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains.. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.' 'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided. 'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.' The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so.. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' 'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers.. 'I Guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?' Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it Everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in The multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world.. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God.. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'


The professor sat down..

[Kalifa]

Kalifa is going to be fucking ELITE at counting to 20.

The starting wage for a pharmacist is around $70K, not $110K, but I think you'll get a discount at the Walmart where you work.

that's really just not right whatsoever, i'm sorry.

[Slathar]

that's really just not right whatsoever, i'm sorry.

The salary range in the United States for a pharmacist with less than a year of experience is between $67,589 and $89,788.

[Alawen Everywhere]

that's really just not right whatsoever, i'm sorry.

I stand corrected. Kalifa will continue his struggle to count to 20. Luckily, he has a full set of fingers and toes to help him.

[Kalifa]

The salary range in the United States for a pharmacist with less than a year of experience is between $67,589 and $89,788.

you do realize that what type of pharmacist you are and what degrees you have affect your salary right? a family friend of mine recently graduated pharmacy school and is now working in a community setting for $129,000 annual pay on top of a ~$5000 signing bonus. who gives a fuck anyway, this is all beside the point

[Kalifa]

I stand corrected. Kalifa will continue his struggle to count to 20. Luckily, he has a full set of fingers and toes to help him.

ha bro i don't know what your getting at. i don't think being a pharmacist is especially hard and i never said i did. earning your license is probably more than half the battle. i'm not doing it because it is the thing i love, i'm doing it so i can afford to do the things that i love

[Harrison]

The salary range in the United States for a pharmacist with less than a year of experience is between $67,589 and $89,788.

So what you're saying is that this kid is going to be making roughly 6 times as much as you?

[Alawen Everywhere]

ha bro i don't know what your getting at. i don't think being a pharmacist is especially hard and i never said i did. earning your license is probably more than half the battle. i'm not doing it because it is the thing i love, i'm doing it so i can afford to do the things that i love

So you're going to devote most of your waking hours for the rest of your life to unrewarding greed? That sounds awesome. Best of luck.

[Kalifa]

So you're going to devote most of your waking hours for the rest of your life to unrewarding greed? That sounds awesome. Best of luck.

the job that i would love most would be a professional baseball player. second to that.................whatever pays the bills. i never said it would be unrewarding. in fact it is probably one of the more rewarding/fitting jobs (in MY OWN opinion) for me. stop putting words in my mouth. shut the fuck up

[chtulu]

So you're going to devote most of your waking hours for the rest of your life to unrewarding greed? That sounds awesome. Best of luck.

When you don't have a god to please, you can base your life around whatever makes you happy.

[Alawen Everywhere]

New to the flame board, thing, huh? Alright, I'm feeling slightly magnanimous at the moment. Here's a free clue: keep stuff about your personal life off MMO flame boards. Tell people you're a dope dealer or that you own half a dozen Subways or some shit like that. Then laugh at them when they tell you that you're going to jail or that your food sucks.

I don't give a shit what you do with your life. Suburban pharmacist sounds like a fine job. It's perfectly lovely that your old man is buying you an education. Pretending that you pulled yourself up by the bootstraps when you're a kid going to school on dad's dime is pretty fucking disingenuous, though.

I have class tomorrow. G'night.

[nalkin]

Lol at anyone who thinks they deserve to be wealthy because they "worked hard".

[Kalifa]

New to the flame board, thing, huh? Alright, I'm feeling slightly magnanimous at the moment. Here's a free clue: keep stuff about your personal life off MMO flame boards. Tell people you're a dope dealer or that you own half a dozen Subways or some shit like that. Then laugh at them when they tell you that you're going to jail or that your food sucks.

I don't give a shit what you do with your life. Suburban pharmacist sounds like a fine job. It's perfectly lovely that your old man is buying you an education. Pretending that you pulled yourself up by the bootstraps when you're a kid going to school on dad's dime is pretty fucking disingenuous, though.

I have class tomorrow. G'night.

whew thanks for letting me off so easy

P.S. aren't you the one always talking about your personal life on here? .......................i apologize if i am mistaken

[Slathar]

So what you're saying is that this kid is going to be making roughly 6 times as much as you?

this means a lot coming from someone who was rejected from the military during a war. you've also never been educated, so i understand this aggression ;) its part of being ignorant and stupid.

[Kalifa]

Lol at anyone who thinks they deserve to be wealthy because they "worked hard".

of course not.......but you rarely earn wealth without some good old hard work.

ALL i said to begin with was a comment about how working for something goes a long way, but of course it's blown out of proportion now.

[Slathar]

of course not.......but you rarely earn wealth without some good old hard work.

ALL i said to begin with was a comment about how working for something goes a long way, but of course it's blown out of proportion now.

but you're justifying your "hard work" (school isnt hard) by implying if the monetary reward isn't X amount then it isn't worthwhile which is proven when you made fun of someone who may be getting a graduate degree in the arts.

it also proves you're close-minded, but thats par for the course for a person whose daddy pays for their "hard work"

[Harrison]

this means a lot coming from someone who was rejected from the military during a war. you've also never been educated, so i understand this aggression ;) its part of being ignorant and stupid.

Says the guy who can't differentiate the uses for "its" and "it's".

LAWL

[Kalifa]

but you're justifying your "hard work" (school isnt hard) by implying if the monetary reward isn't X amount then it isn't worthwhile which is proven when you made fun of someone who may be getting a graduate degree in the arts.

it also proves you're close-minded, but thats par for the course for a person whose daddy pays for their "hard work"

how can you keep saying school isn't work. what the fuck do you think is work. why the fuck do you keep saying this.

i never made fun of the arts, i just look at that as more of a leisurely activity than school work. if i wanted i could go pick up some supplies and start painting right now, and i would probably have a great time doing it. it would be 'worthwhile' for no 'monetary reward'. i just don't need to spend 15,000 on tuition to do it.

[Slathar]

Says the guy who can't differentiate the uses for "its" and "it's".

LAWL

i also dont capitalize letters or punctuate my sentences but at least i could join the army if i was so inclined

[Harrison]

You're not special.

I'm still re-enlisting. The discharge for my injury doesn't exclude me for life, just until cleared.

*thumbs up* You're still an uneducated moron who can't spell.

[Slathar]

You're not special.

I'm still re-enlisting. The discharge for my injury doesn't exclude me for life, just until cleared.

*thumbs up* You're still an uneducated moron who can't spell.

and you're still posting on an eq message board about how you're not in the military lawl

[Harrison]

Who brought it up? The guy still hung up on it.

[chtulu]

Who brought it up? The guy still hung up on it.

You're still hung up on Jesus, bro.

[Harrison]

You're still hung up on Jesus, bro.

I don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, a God, etc.

I only believe that he existed.

Your misconception, which is unsurprising given how fucking flat-out retarded you are, is that I am a religious person at all.

I am on the side of reason, not blind faith in anything.

[chtulu]

I don't believe that Jesus was the son of God, a God, etc.

I only believe that he existed.

Your misconception, which is unsurprising given how fucking flat-out retarded you are, is that I am a religious person at all.

I am on the side of reason, not blind faith in anything.

except in the U.S. Military. Herp Derp.

[Humerox]

i and thou
ee cummings


42.

/thread

[purist]

inb4 Harrison summons his brother to the thread to defend his e-dignity

[Harrison]

Lol I could "summon" at the very least 5 people, but to the likes of you nothings? I'll have to repeat the: "LAWL" part....

[Succession]

My thoughts on Atheism:

I would rather live my entire life believing in God only to find out when I die that there is no Heaven/Hell than live my life denying God only to find out when I die that God is real and consequently spending Eternity in the Burning Depths of Hell. :(

Atleast believe in something, man. Anything.. :/

If there really is an afterlife, you don't want to be one of those lost souls just floating about in limbo for eternity. Come join the party. Those Islamic guys are gonna be chillin with 69 virgins, I know you love that. Or maybe those Christians will invite you over to the Golden Streets of Heaven? Shit man, you could even party in Hell if you're in to that kind of stuff. Maybe, the Buddhists will hook you up with some Nirvana. I mean, group up with the Agnostics and discuss your own ideas if you want. They'll be around I'm sure, atleast some of them.:cool:

Do you really care that much about your tiny significance of a mortal, humanly life to blindly denounce God(s)? Why are you mad? Forgive your debtors my friend. Coexistence is possible.

You're human flesh has an expiration date, no matter what you believe in. We all die. You're belief in nothing will lead you, that is for sure. It will lead you to die alone. You're soul will drift from your dead body alone, into nothing, forever.:eek:

Have faith, in something.
Treat your Soul to a Divine existence, bro.
:cool:

[Unedited - I don't give a fuck]:rolleyes:

[Hauling]

My thoughts on Atheism:

I would rather live my entire life believing in God only to find out when I die that there is no Heaven/Hell than live my life denying God only to find out when I die that God is real and consequently spending Eternity in the Burning Depths of Hell. :(



I have a rock that keeps bears away. I'll sell it to you for $500. Would you rather go the rest of your life in danger of being attacked by a bear, or would you rather buy my rock and be disappointed in the event it doesn't work?

I'm pretty certain being a just-in-case believer doesn't count from everything I've ever heard about religion. It's like telling Santa Claus you've been a good boy when you've been stealing the other kids' lunch money.

[Abysis]

Its not really someone's fault if they don't believe in God. And fear of shitty afterlife doesn't make you believe it just makes you pretend and lie to yourself.

Like if someone told you that you would go to hell if you didn't believe that the sun was cold and the sky was green would you believe that?

It has to be believable to be believed. Some are more gullible then others, and i guess they get to go to heaven. Skeptics go to hell.

But hey God made them skeptical so its kinda his fault.

Unless you play the free will card then the argument gets even dumber, with a totalitarian belief system you must follow or you spend eternity in pain and suffering for just not buying some far fetched idea. And all this from someone who loves you.

[Hauling]

God vs. Science
"Let me explain the problem science has with religion."

The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says.

'So you believe in God?'

'Absolutely '

'Is God good?'

'Sure! God's good.'

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes'

'Are you good or evil?'

'The Bible says I'm evil.'

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible! He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'

'Yes sir, I would.'

'So you're good...!'

'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. 'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Er..yes,' the student says.

'Is Satan good?'

The student doesn't hesitate on this one.. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?'

The student falters. 'From God'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?'

'Yes, sir.'

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'

'Yes'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'

Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'

The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'

'So who created them ?'

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues onto another student.

'Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?'

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'

'No sir. I've never seen Him.'

'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not.'

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?'

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?'

'Yes'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist... What do you say to that, son?'

'Nothing,' the student replies.. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat? '

' Yes.

'And is there such a thing as cold?'

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.'

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested.. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we
would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy..

Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold.. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it isn't darkness?'

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'

'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains.. 'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it.' 'Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do.'

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided. 'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean.' The student looks around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so.. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' 'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers.. 'I Guess you'll have to take them on faith.'

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?' Now uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it Everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in The multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world.. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.'

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God.. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'


The professor sat down..

A few thoughts about this story:

1.) Heat and light can be measured. God cannot. That analogy does not fit.

2.) Evolution has been proven. Just because the "student" in your story has not read a newspaper in 150 years doesn't mean it hasn't. If you yourself need proof of evolution, go catch pneumonia and stop taking your antibiotics as soon as you are feeling better instead of when the doctor recommends. You may even find proof there is no god this way.

3.) A philosophy professor who is an atheist would have heard all these flawed arguments a thousand times before and would most certainly have a well-reasoned rebuttal to every one of them, especially considering it's the same crap that has been circulating the internet in chain letters for the past 20 years.

4.) The argument about the professor not having a brain is both stupid and flawed. The fact that he does have a brain can be measured without seeing inside his skull merely by the fact that he is walking and talking. It doesn't take faith to know there's a fire when you see smoke.

5.) I'll give it to you that there is no evil, but also that there is no good. At least not inherently. The universe is indifferent. No matter what happens, it trudges along with or without us. We live on one planet in a galaxy of billions and in a universe of billions of galaxies and then some. If an asteroid wiped us out, sure it'd be a shame to us, but I doubt we'd be missed or even noticed.

[Henini]

great explanation of how its very different. not.



I was referring to their natural resources. and wasn't flaming you. I actually admire those countries.

and I wouldn't call USA rich, China owns USA now and has for many years. I can see how it would be easy tho thing it's a rich country however.

[Henini]

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so.. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' 'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'


lolll
such poor arguments.

crack his skull open you will find his brain. that's what science would prove easily if it experimented. and we have done so in the past, we know it's there, we don't need to open everyone's skulls to know if they have a brain or not.
fucking retard!

did you see evolution, no it happens over millions of years, humans don't have that kind of life span, which is normal since we are talking evolution... it happens from generations to generations to generations ... ... .. and so on. we are still evolving as we speak. we don't notice it, but if humans are still around in 500 000 years I can assure you they wont look exactly like we do now.
we didn't notice it, but with our brains (that no one can prove we have) we were able to dig up and examine and test (with science, not faith) fociles and preserved bodies and such.
did you ever see a real live dinosaur? no, did they exist? damn right they did.

can you be more retarded. I guess, you can believe in creationism.

I don't even understand how anyone with even high school education can believe in that shit, it's just ridiculous!

[Henini]

Lol I could "summon" at the very least 5 people, but to the likes of you nothings? I'll have to repeat the: "LAWL" part....

you have 5 friends?

WOW I wish I was cool like you, then I could have at least 5 friends as well.

[Henini]

I have a rock that keeps bears away. I'll sell it to you for $500. Would you rather go the rest of your life in danger of being attacked by a bear, or would you rather buy my rock and be disappointed in the event it doesn't work?


This could work on ebay!

*goes to ebay


yes I do realize I have man consecutive posts in this thread now. it's boring at work OK!!!!

thanks for the entertainment :)

[Japan]

did you see evolution, yes it happens in a matter of months in thousands of demonstrable cases

fixed. Evolution isn't some almost-invisible guiding hand that can only be observed over eons. It has very real immediate effects on your life, particularly with regards to disease states induced by constantly-evolving bacteria and virus. Don't give them an inch.

[Hauling]

fixed. Evolution isn't some almost-invisible guiding hand that can only be observed over eons. It has very real immediate effects on your life, particularly with regards to disease states induced by constantly-evolving bacteria and virus. Don't give them an inch.

I concur.

[Henini]

Way to take something totally out of context!

Evolution of the human race from our primal ancestors. (which is what they were talking about)

yes, I know other things evolve at different rates. Generally speaking, the smaller the life form, the faster the evolution. blah blah blah. this isn't a pissing contest a who know more stuff.


Btw Japan, why did you come back here it was nice where your inflated ego wasn't around.

Unlike you, I was making a point, not trying to show to the world how smart I am.

[RocketMoose]

lolll
such poor arguments.

crack his skull open you will find his brain. that's what science would prove easily if it experimented. and we have done so in the past, we know it's there, we don't need to open everyone's skulls to know if they have a brain or not.
fucking retard!

The point isn't that he doesn't actually have a brain, but if you're unable to see/touch/feel etc then the conclusion to draw based on science was that it didn't exist. When it's obviously working, it's obvious that he has a brain due to his body functioning and his ability to 'reason' Yes, you could crack his skull open and disprove the theory, you're right. But until they actually did that, then there was no proof of a 'brain' other than 'faith' that the brain was there. Go ahead and get mad, it's obvious you are.

did you see evolution, no it happens over millions of years, humans don't have that kind of life span, which is normal since we are talking evolution... it happens from generations to generations to generations ... ... .. and so on. we are still evolving as we speak.

So explain to me then how we're all evolving at exactly the same rate, and that there is no one in the world that is 80% human 20% primate? Why are there 0 primates that are 50/50 human/primate? Why don't primates talk? Generations to Generations or not, everyone would have to be at the exact same spot in the evolutionary process.

If you don't want to view it that way, then why aren't there humans that are more evolved, that have larger brains, that pass from generation to generation? Why is it we don't just breed the people with the highest IQs to create more people with high IQs? How do you explain someone with parents with average IQs, being measured in the genius range? Is that because evolution happened so quickly in this case, and then ceased happening all together?

we don't notice it, but if humans are still around in 500 000 years I can assure you they wont look exactly like we do now.
we didn't notice it, but with our brains (that no one can prove we have)

See, no one said we couldn't prove it, not a single time in that example did they say we couldn't ever prove it. Just based on the scientific method that the test for a brain failed, was the test a good one? Absolutely not, but that's the entire point, just because his method was flawed, his result was flawed, just as your method is flawed, thus your result is flawed.

we were able to dig up and examine and test (with science, not faith) fociles and preserved bodies and such.
did you ever see a real live dinosaur? no, did they exist? damn right they did.

can you be more retarded. I guess, you can believe in creationism.

I don't even understand how anyone with even high school education can believe in that shit, it's just ridiculous!

At this point, you're just mad, you really need to get over it. The fact that you can't prove evolution, no one can, no one has, thus it's still called the THEORY of evolution. You want to try to talk down to people, and belittle their minds, and act like they are stupid, because they believe in something you don't, or maybe it's just that they are more 'evolved' than you and you want to reject it.


You can chit chat, piss and moan, and whine all you want about how 'stupid' creationists are. It's not something you're capable of looking at even through your own scientific methods. God created science, God created reason, God is also not bound by time, and he's not finite.

Is God measurable through a thermometer? No, but it's obvious the difference in people who have a faith in God, and have God acting in their lives vs those who refuse to allow God to work in their lives.

Just because we haven't quantified it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just like you can't see the wind, you can't see gravity, you can feel their effects, and we have found a way to quantify them, so you believe it. So, if a 'scientist' puts a number on how much God was in someone, based on their actions, and quantified it you'd then believe in God?

You want to have your cake and eat it too, doesn't really work that way. Every psychologist in the world can see what's going on here, and even those who aren't psychologists can observe what is basically the bully mentality that you're trying to bring here. Bullies try to push the smaller kids around, and prove how 'tough' they are by pointing out how weak someone else is, which in fact is just a way to mask their insecurities, and their weaknesses, which if looked into, just further exposes them.

You can be mad, and you can stay mad, or you can choose to go on and be happy. That choice is yours, no one here can mandate anything to you about your actions, but just know in the end, the true Christians, not the "Christians" in this thread, are people who really want to help you, and are people who genuinely care about your well being, spiritual and otherwise. You can reject that if you want, but it doesn't take the offer away, just as God's offer is still extended to you, and anyone else who will choose to allow Jesus to be their savior.

[RocketMoose]

this explains so much. hard work = dad paying for everything? loooool

you're a joke. have fun perpetuating the cycle of annoying, spoiled, entitled americans who only think of themselves.

I'm confused, because his Dad worked hard, saved up, and was able to give to his children he's the bad guy now? I understand some people have to work their way through school, and/or take out student loans (I know I did) but you're implying that because his Dad is either wealthy, or someone who placed a higher value on paying for his children's education and giving them a leg up on the future, is wrong in some way.

You mad because you're not an American?

Just because you have things doesn't mean you're selfish, his father, and his family could very well have given more money away than you or I made last year, we have no way of knowing that. Just because wealthy people have nice things, doesn't mean they aren't giving. I have friends who's parents are multi millionaires, they live in a nice home and drive nice cars, but they never have the attitude you do towards people. They are very giving, very generous people. Nothing wrong with having nice stuff.

Personally I have quite a few nice things, it's not because I'm rich, it's because I put my priority on something, save up, and buy it. I don't waste my time with credit cards, I'm a weirdo that actually pays off his debts and once he's out of debt works to stay that way. I too hope one day to be able to afford my children's education, and with enough discipline I will be able to do that. But it doesn't mean I don't think of others.

I really hope for your sake, that whatever is making you so mad, is something you can get over, because it's very off putting. No reason to be that mad.

[Hauling]

You can chit chat, piss and moan, and whine all you want about how 'stupid' creationists are. It's not something you're capable of looking at even through your own scientific methods. God created science, God created reason, God is also not bound by time, and he's not finite.

Creationists aren't stupid, just mislead. God did not create science. Science is not a tangible thing, it's a method to find out how things work. It's about having an idea and testing it to see if it's right and then retesting it over and again to make sure prior results weren't just coincidence. There was no moment in history where we went from having no science to having science. Just like everything else, it evolved through trial and error.

Is God measurable through a thermometer? No, but it's obvious the difference in people who have a faith in God, and have God acting in their lives vs those who refuse to allow God to work in their lives.

What's the obvious difference? I'm willing to bet you can't look at any one person in a crowd and tell me what their beliefs are, except for the people who hand out fliers that say I'm going to burn in hell when I'm trying to see a baseball game.

Just because we haven't quantified it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just like you can't see the wind, you can't see gravity, you can feel their effects, and we have found a way to quantify them, so you believe it. So, if a 'scientist' puts a number on how much God was in someone, based on their actions, and quantified it you'd then believe in God?

We can feel wind and gravity's effects, that's how we know they exist. They can be measured in a repeatable, consistent way that every reasonable person can agree on, but I'm pretty sure I would have known they were there even if no one put a name on them. I cannot say that about god.

As far as your questions about why there aren't monkey human hybrids is because, in fact, there were. If you do a little reading on the subject you will find many, many missing links that have been around in the last half million years or so. Climate conditions, inter species relations and other factors have since eliminated them. Just as monkeys today fight with other monkeys, our ancestors fought with the other branches of the evolutionary chain for survival. And for your point about why there aren't people with higher IQ's, we are the people with higher IQ's and better social and communication skills that survived all of that.

And if you need further evidence of how this works, just look at the different races of people. It's no coincidence that a black man and a black woman have black babies nor a white man and a white woman have white babies. How many genocides of entire populations have there been, just in our recorded history?

[Slathar]

I'm confused, because his Dad worked hard, saved up, and was able to give to his children he's the bad guy now? I understand some people have to work their way through school, and/or take out student loans (I know I did) but you're implying that because his Dad is either wealthy, or someone who placed a higher value on paying for his children's education and giving them a leg up on the future, is wrong in some way.

You mad because you're not an American?

Just because you have things doesn't mean you're selfish, his father, and his family could very well have given more money away than you or I made last year, we have no way of knowing that. Just because wealthy people have nice things, doesn't mean they aren't giving. I have friends who's parents are multi millionaires, they live in a nice home and drive nice cars, but they never have the attitude you do towards people. They are very giving, very generous people. Nothing wrong with having nice stuff.

Personally I have quite a few nice things, it's not because I'm rich, it's because I put my priority on something, save up, and buy it. I don't waste my time with credit cards, I'm a weirdo that actually pays off his debts and once he's out of debt works to stay that way. I too hope one day to be able to afford my children's education, and with enough discipline I will be able to do that. But it doesn't mean I don't think of others.

I really hope for your sake, that whatever is making you so mad, is something you can get over, because it's very off putting. No reason to be that mad.

this has nothing to do with what was being discussed at all. he is attempting to appear as though he has pulled himself up by his bootstraps to become who he is today and thinks that others can do the same. in reality, not many people have rich daddy's who pay for everything but he's unable to see that because he's sheltered and ignorant. im also willing to bet he goes to church each sunday! :D

i am american, but find it regrettable that my country is full of religious zealots who try to lord their beliefs over people who are smarter than they are.

[RocketMoose]

this has nothing to do with what was being discussed at all. he is attempting to appear as though he has pulled himself up by his bootstraps to become who he is today and thinks that others can do the same. in reality, not many people have rich daddy's who pay for everything but he's unable to see that because he's sheltered and ignorant. im also willing to bet he goes to church each sunday! :D

i am american, but find it regrettable that my country is full of religious zealots who try to lord their beliefs over people who are smarter than they are.

By what justification? I'd gladly put my IQ test scores up vs yours. I'm not trying to 'lord' my beliefs on anyone, just simply stating what I believe, and making a point for my beliefs just as you are yours. But the fact that you can't comprehend God, doesn't make you smarter than me. I can assure you, day in and day out I run into both smart, and nearly retarded people from both sections of believers and non believers.

I go to church most Sundays, generally only miss for sickness, or being out of town for work or something. Does that make me dumber than you?

[quellren]

So explain to me then how we're all evolving at exactly the same rate, and that there is no one in the world that is 80% human 20% primate? Why are there 0 primates that are 50/50 human/primate? Why don't primates talk? Generations to Generations or not, everyone would have to be at the exact same spot in the evolutionary process.

If you don't want to view it that way, then why aren't there humans that are more evolved, that have larger brains, that pass from generation to generation? Why is it we don't just breed the people with the highest IQs to create more people with high IQs? How do you explain someone with parents with average IQs, being measured in the genius range? Is that because evolution happened so quickly in this case, and then ceased happening all together?

You really don't understand the principles of Evolution do you? Please go get the cliff-notes of Darwin's book, Origin of Species.

It seems to me that you mistake the end-goal of evolution to be complex, and human-like. Evolution isn't solely about increasing complexity. Humans aren't the pinnacle of evolution. Apes aren't becoming more like you and I because they don't need to.

Here's a scenario:
Two groups of apes, one lives deep in the forest, the other at the edge.
Over time, (10 thousand years, lets say) the forest monkeys keep living in the forest, and only the ones that are very good at climbing trees and grabbing fruit and are thus more healthy. This makes them desirable to female monkeys. They breed more. The ones bad at climbing don't mate, because they are sickly, or too muscular to climb well. They are not attractive to the other sex. Over 100 generations, only the monkeys good at climbing make more monkeys, which are, typically good at climbing. These are the concepts known as Fitness and natural selection. One trait was better ADAPTED and thus a benefit over another. It won the competition and stayed around. The other (non-climbing) wasn't aiding in the survival of the monkeys, so that trait wasn't passed on as often as climbing, agile monkeys.

Let's look at the other group, the forest edge monkeys: They can find food both in trees and on the plains away from trees. Over 100 generations, the forest shrunk and they had to compete with the climbing monkeys deeper in the forest, this was a battle that they wouldn't win, all the fruit was gone, taken by the better climbing monkeys deep in the forest. So they stick to food on the plains. But the grass is tall, so they learn to stand up and look over the grass. Now the tall, strong monkeys that can see danger, and carry lots of food to the family are the ones that are healthier and sought after. The short agile monkeys are at a disadvantage and don't breed often. This physical characteristic eventually dies out.
Over millions of years, this group of monkeys will grow very tall, be able to run long distances, and ditch all the body hair, because it's hot in the sun. They become 'human'.

The forest monkeys stayed short, agile, strong, and excellent tree climbers. WHY?
Because they didn't need to. The monkeys that were good at living in trees a million years ago had the same body shape as today because it's perfect for the monkeys lifestyle, climbing trees for food.

So you can drop that idea that evolution is a downloading progress bar, with the 20% complete, or 80% monkey nonsense.
Evolution is not a conveyor belt to being human.

[Henini]

Hauling is awesome in game and he's awesome on the forums too!

rocketmoose, I'm sure when religious groups go out to war against other people in the name of god you think it's ok that they kill people "because gold is telling them too".

nothing you said so far has any kind of logic or sense. your are the typical blind believer kind of person.

you are allowed to believe in creationism. you are allowed to believe spiderman and the tooth fairy exist too. you are allowed to believe in god. no one can take that away from you.
but if you have any kind of insight, you can see that there are so many religions out there and they all have different gods, some even have many gods.
Doesn't that make you think a little? obviously not, because there is only one true god and it's the one YOU believe in and everyone else is wrong. you made that pretty clear.

So, you have made it clear that you are not tolerant about other peoples beliefs, and you rely solely on fantasy novels to justify your beliefs. (the bible and superman cartoon have the same credibility when it comes to reality and facts).
Yet you manage to disregard all the findings from science, facts, tangible things that have been dug out of the earth.

but whatever, there is no point trying to reason with you. if you had any reason you wouldn't be here championing creationism and the absolute power of your god.

[RocketMoose]

Creationists aren't stupid, just mislead. God did not create science. Science is not a tangible thing, it's a method to find out how things work. It's about having an idea and testing it to see if it's right and then retesting it over and again to make sure prior results weren't just coincidence. There was no moment in history where we went from having no science to having science. Just like everything else, it evolved through trial and error.

it is your opinion that we are mislead, we can say the same thing about you. Maybe I should have defined what I meant by science better. God created the laws of physics, that we discovered, God created things and put an order to the universe, we just discover the truth that is already out there.

What's the obvious difference? I'm willing to bet you can't look at any one person in a crowd and tell me what their beliefs are, except for the people who hand out fliers that say I'm going to burn in hell when I'm trying to see a baseball game.

Can you LOOK at anyone and tell what they 'believe' or where they work even? No, looking has nothing to do with it. It's the persons words and actions. Someone who is allowing God to work in their life will show signs of God working in their life. I don't believe ALL of those people handing out fliers are going to heaven either, and I don't believe that running around condemning people to Hell is the Christian's position either. Getting saved is far more than just 'fire insurance' if that's all it is to you, then you're mislead anyway (not YOU specifically, you as in anyone) So, no, I can't LOOK at someone and see they're truly a Christian, but I can see by the way they act and what they do if they are. Am I saying Christians are all perfect? Nope, are we always nice all the time? No, certainly not, but a true Christian will show you their true colors if you just sit back and watch them.

We can feel wind and gravity's effects, that's how we know they exist. They can be measured in a repeatable, consistent way that every reasonable person can agree on, but I'm pretty sure I would have known they were there even if no one put a name on them. I cannot say that about god.

Just as you can feel the effects of wind and gravity, you can also feel God, it's not a physical feeling, but it is a spiritual one, and when you're in tune with what's going on there, then you truly can feel Him stirring your spirit. It's seriously inexplicable by scientific terms. So just like you say that you can know they are there without a name, I can say the same, except I can't attach a number to God's operating in my life, I can however feel His effects, and see the results in my life.

As far as your questions about why there aren't monkey human hybrids is because, in fact, there were. If you do a little reading on the subject you will find many, many missing links that have been around in the last half million years or so. Climate conditions, inter species relations and other factors have since eliminated them. Just as monkeys today fight with other monkeys, our ancestors fought with the other branches of the evolutionary chain for survival. And for your point about why there aren't people with higher IQ's, we are the people with higher IQ's and better social and communication skills that survived all of that.

Just because you say we're the ones who survived, does that mean then we're the perfect evolution of human? No, of course not he answered, because we're constantly evolving...which is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make here. You can attempt to explain the gaping holes in the THEORY of evolution, however your attempts to explain those gaping holes are even less justifiable than God is in your eyes. Oh, we made it because of climate conditions, or inter species relations. That has nothing to do with it, do people adapt? Absolutely, but that's not the theory of evolution, that's just how God created us. God isn't so short sighted to create us with the inability to fight off diseases and climate differences et all. That's the thing, that I would argue vs the people who say that evolutionists are smarter than creationists.

Evolutionists are just trying to simplify God, and creation. To them, everything must have a reason, an exact action and reaction, it has to be measurable, which just isn't true, there are many things in the world that cannot be explained. There are complexities about our Universe, our Planet, and beyond that are so far beyond the realm of understanding it's impossible for the finite human mind to fathom. Those things require faith, faith to believe that God inspired those things and He is in control, or faith to believe that calamity occurred and there is no reasoning behind those things (which completely goes against science's ability to test, and prove, and reprove to verify their existence)

And if you need further evidence of how this works, just look at the different races of people. It's no coincidence that a black man and a black woman have black babies nor a white man and a white woman have white babies. How many genocides of entire populations have there been, just in our recorded history?
Races have nothing to do with it, God created that too, just like He created DNA, something 'science' has only recently discovered, but has been there since the beginning of man. That's like saying me planting a seed for an apple tree should randomly have a chance of creating an orange, not at all true, God is a God of order, not a God of confusion. Genocides or attempted Genocides, what does this have to do with evolution that couldn't simply be explained through the fact that humans are flawed?

Seriously, we could obviously go back and forth on this for...eternity. I don't mind having a good debate here, in fact I like it, I'm not scared of it. I'm firm in my beliefs, as you are in yours, I doubt either of us is going to shake the other and force them to believe something different through this thread, but I do hope that maybe I can make you realize that all Christians are bigots and ignorant and closed off to things and won't simply write things off without listening and comprehending, and giving a response that is more than just "I'm going to take my ball and go home."

I really believe that proper science will one day come to a point where it can do nothing but prove the existence of God by discovering truths along the way that God himself put in place.

btw, thanks for at least being willing to have a decent conversation, and not being all crazy with just trying to call me a retard, or some elementary school style approach to debate/conversation.

[Henini]

You really don't understand the principles of Evolution do you? Please go get the cliff-notes of Darwin's book, Origin of Species.



stop with your blasphemy, god created the perfect humans that we are (well rocketmoose, I was created by my mom and dad) and he's created moneys. just they way they are.... 2011 years ago.

ohh wait never mind! :P

[Succession]

I have a rock that keeps bears away. I'll sell it to you for $500. Would you rather go the rest of your life in danger of being attacked by a bear, or would you rather buy my rock and be disappointed in the event it doesn't work?

I'm pretty certain being a just-in-case believer doesn't count from everything I've ever heard about religion. It's like telling Santa Claus you've been a good boy when you've been stealing the other kids' lunch money.

Yes! I will gladly purchase your bear-deterent rock if it is all that you can do to provide for your family. If not, I'd find my own.
But no, I'm not a just in case believer that was simply just a peculiar scenario.

[Henini]

Races have nothing to do with it, God created that too, just like He created DNA, something 'science' has only recently discovered, but has been there since the beginning of man.
of course he created everything, even the other gods of other religions right?

That's like saying me planting a seed for an apple tree should randomly have a chance of creating an orange, not at all true
seriously are you doing it on purpose to twist things to spew out none sense?
God is a God of order, not a God of confusion.
OK
Genocides or attempted Genocides, what does this have to do with evolution that couldn't simply be explained through the fact that humans are flawed?
we are his most perfect creation, yet we are flawed... but he is god of order? So you are implying that your god really sucks at what he does. but how is that possible, he is god?


Thanks for the lulz!


I can see though how you can't grasp or comprehend anything we are saying properly, it must be a very scary world you live in. having an imaginary friend (god) that reassure you must help a lot. Since he's the explanation to everything.

[RocketMoose]

You really don't understand the principles of Evolution do you? Please go get the cliff-notes of Darwin's book, Origin of Species.

It seems to me that you mistake the end-goal of evolution to be complex, and human-like. Evolution isn't solely about increasing complexity. Humans aren't the pinnacle of evolution. Apes aren't becoming more like you and I because they don't need to.

Here's a scenario:
Two groups of apes, one lives deep in the forest, the other at the edge.
Over time, (10 thousand years, lets say) the forest monkeys keep living in the forest, and only the ones that are very good at climbing trees and grabbing fruit and are thus more healthy. This makes them desirable to female monkeys. They breed more. The ones bad at climbing don't mate, because they are sickly, or too muscular to climb well. They are not attractive to the other sex. Over 100 generations, only the monkeys good at climbing make more monkeys, which are, typically good at climbing. These are the concepts known as Fitness and natural selection. One trait was better ADAPTED and thus a benefit over another. It won the competition and stayed around. The other (non-climbing) wasn't aiding in the survival of the monkeys, so that trait wasn't passed on as often as climbing, agile monkeys.

Let's look at the other group, the forest edge monkeys: They can find food both in trees and on the plains away from trees. Over 100 generations, the forest shrunk and they had to compete with the climbing monkeys deeper in the forest, this was a battle that they wouldn't win, all the fruit was gone, taken by the better climbing monkeys deep in the forest. So they stick to food on the plains. But the grass is tall, so they learn to stand up and look over the grass. Now the tall, strong monkeys that can see danger, and carry lots of food to the family are the ones that are healthier and sought after. The short agile monkeys are at a disadvantage and don't breed often. This physical characteristic eventually dies out.
Over millions of years, this group of monkeys will grow very tall, be able to run long distances, and ditch all the body hair, because it's hot in the sun. They become 'human'.

The forest monkeys stayed short, agile, strong, and excellent tree climbers. WHY?
Because they didn't need to. The monkeys that were good at living in trees a million years ago had the same body shape as today because it's perfect for the monkeys lifestyle, climbing trees for food.

So you can drop that idea that evolution is a downloading progress bar, with the 20% complete, or 80% monkey nonsense.
Evolution is not a conveyor belt to being human.
Yes, but you see, at some point we did come from primates right? So in this theory that you've postalized then there would still be a need for some of these monkeys to become humans in order to survive as we continue to kill off their natural habitats thus forcing out their food supply vs population and forcing someone to survive and some to fail. So right now this process would still be happening. Same would be true for a human that is forced to live out in the caves, and do things only at night he would 'devolve' to suit his condition better right?

You have these gaping holes that you can't explain. Your 2 nice neat vacuum scenarios don't work in the real life situation. It's just like physics in a classroom, they designate a coefficient of friction etc to come up with a world to do their work, and prove that they are right. Those truths are in fact in the world, and absolutely make perfect sense, because they are out there, but those scenarios you present don't disprove God, or prove evolution.

Never in the Bible did it say that man can't adapt, that God's creation can't change in order to be better at things. That's why we practice, it's not because our bodies don't have the ability to do things, it's that we haven't learned how to do them, or haven't learned how to do them as effectively as possible.

If evolution were true, then how is it that just innately that some people in today's generation have 0 physical ability to do something athletic. The skinny guys, and girls who end up behind a computer with the typical stereotype. Then same can be said for guys who are just innately born with a gift for athletics, even if their parents weren't. Same would be true with the monkeys. Not every small agile monkey would be the best climber, not every big powerful monkey would be unable to climb well. I mean c'mon, seriously, in the 'perfect world' that you've created, absolutely it makes perfect since, but there are things that science can not yet explain, that are out there.

I have a buddy of mine, amazing athlete, his brother by the same parents, no athletic ability what so ever. They were raised in the same house, doing similar activities, in what way does this support your theory of blacks being born to blacks etc?

People keep saying I'm the one with no reason, yet when I come to you with a real world scenario you're not going to have anything to say, because science can't say why, because science isn't creation.

I don't blindly believe, if I did I wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation. Bring me a fact, not something you've just come up with out of nowhere. Like how can you explain this...

My friend's Uncle, was one of the healthiest, best athletes, and just all around just the ideal physical specimen. Yet Thanksgiving day he wakes up out of nowhere with this huge pain in his stomach, goes to the hospital, and they found a tumor the size of a football in his stomach. They found out that it was cancerous and told him he had a couple of weeks, to a couple of months to live. So this is something that science proved to in fact be real, and be there.

Yet, a few weeks later he went back in and without surgery, without anything going on because they didn't think chemo was worth it, the tumor was gone, and he was given a 100% clean bill of health.

What does your science have to say about that? Cause I know what the non-Christian doctor said. And I assure you it had nothing to do with science, medicine or anything else 'tangible'

[RocketMoose]

Thanks for the lulz!


I can see though how you can't grasp or comprehend anything we are saying properly, it must be a very scary world you live in. having an imaginary friend (god) that reassure you must help a lot. Since he's the explanation to everything.

You have yet to refute anything I have to say with anything other than playground tactics. You can attempt to demean me, and act as if I have no ability to reason, when the fact remains, I'm still here, I still can debate, and I will continue to debate, using my 'evolved' mind.

I can flip what you say just as you can attempt to flip what I say. Watch:

I can see how you can't grasp or comprehend anything about God and creation, it must be a very scary world you live in, having to go around believing that everything is random happenstance and that you only exist by pure chance. Oh wait, you were 'chosen' by evolution, since that's the explanation to everything.

See how easy that is? Oh wait, I'm not supposed to be able to do that because I have no ability to grasp, or comprehend anything you say though, cause you operate on much more evolved level than I do.

I really do feel for you guy/gal. Hope for your sake you're right about everything, sure would hate for it to all come down to the end for you to find out just how wrong and deceived you were.

[Japan]

Unlike you, I was making a point, not trying to show to the world how smart I am.

In wording your statements weakly and thereby eroding the position of the other people in this thread trying to fight ignorance. I'm sorry you didn't get my point, but it was that you are a fucking idiot.

[Japan]

Yes, but you see, at some point we did come from primates right? So in this theory that you've postalized then there would still be a need for some of these monkeys to become humans in order to survive as we continue to kill off their natural habitats thus forcing out their food supply vs population and forcing someone to survive and some to fail. So right now this process would still be happening. Same would be true for a human that is forced to live out in the caves, and do things only at night he would 'devolve' to suit his condition better right?

You are ignorant of the nature of evolution. This process is still happening, by definition, as long as organisms are reproducing. To imply that a human would change genetically after his birth is a ludicrous misunderstanding of biology.

Never in the Bible did it say that man can't adapt, that God's creation can't change in order to be better at things. That's why we practice, it's not because our bodies don't have the ability to do things, it's that we haven't learned how to do them, or haven't learned how to do them as effectively as possible.
non-sequitur, unless you're confusing genetic variation with learned behavior in which case lol


If evolution were true, then how is it that just innately that some people in today's generation have 0 physical ability to do something athletic. The skinny guys, and girls who end up behind a computer with the typical stereotype...

False premise, once again apparent confusion of genetic variation with physical conditioning

My friend's Uncle, was one of the healthiest, best athletes, and just all around just the ideal physical specimen. Yet Thanksgiving day he wakes up out of nowhere with this huge pain in his stomach, goes to the hospital, and they found a tumor the size of a football in his stomach. They found out that it was cancerous and told him he had a couple of weeks, to a couple of months to live. So this is something that science proved to in fact be real, and be there.

Yet, a few weeks later he went back in and without surgery, without anything going on because they didn't think chemo was worth it, the tumor was gone, and he was given a 100% clean bill of health.

What does your science have to say about that? Cause I know what the non-Christian doctor said. And I assure you it had nothing to do with science, medicine or anything else 'tangible'

Oh no! An unfalsifiable anecdotal story with no supporting evidence! Evolution has been disproved.

[Henini]

Yes, but you see, at some point we did come from primates right? So in this theory that you've postalized then there would still be a need for some of these monkeys to become humans in order to survive as we continue to kill off their natural habitats thus forcing out their food supply vs population and forcing someone to survive and some to fail. So right now this process would still be happening. Same would be true for a human that is forced to live out in the caves, and do things only at night he would 'devolve' to suit his condition better right?
where on earth are there humans that have been living in caves for 10 000 + years right now. again you are retarded and fail to grasp any kind of concept?

You have these gaping holes that you can't explain. Your 2 nice neat vacuum scenarios don't work in the real life situation. It's just like physics in a classroom, they designate a coefficient of friction etc to come up with a world to do their work, and prove that they are right. Those truths are in fact in the world, and absolutely make perfect sense, because they are out there, but those scenarios you present don't disprove God, or prove evolution.

Never in the Bible did it say that man can't adapt, that God's creation can't change in order to be better at things. That's why we practice, it's not because our bodies don't have the ability to do things, it's that we haven't learned how to do them, or haven't learned how to do them as effectively as possible.
by your logic, if I can't turn my head 360 degrees, it's not because I can't do it, it's just because I don't know how. can you show me how please? (since evolution doesn't exist)

If evolution were true, then how is it that just innately that some people in today's generation have 0 physical ability to do something athletic. The skinny guys, and girls who end up behind a computer with the typical stereotype. Then same can be said for guys who are just innately born with a gift for athletics, even if their parents weren't. Same would be true with the monkeys. Not every small agile monkey would be the best climber, not every big powerful monkey would be unable to climb well. I mean c'mon, seriously, in the 'perfect world' that you've created, absolutely it makes perfect since, but there are things that science can not yet explain, that are out there.

I have a buddy of mine, amazing athlete, his brother by the same parents, no athletic ability what so ever. They were raised in the same house, doing similar activities, in what way does this support your theory of blacks being born to blacks etc?

yes, black people regularly give birth to chinese and caucasian. loll
as for your "two brothers" argument. natural physical selection does not apply to humans now days. we have evolved to a point where a vast selection of traits are acceptable and non of them will mean that you will die of hunger. you can even be paraplegic and live a good life now days. but again, you fail to grasp the most simple concept

People keep saying I'm the one with no reason, yet when I come to you with a real world scenario you're not going to have anything to say, because science can't say why, because science isn't creation.
no actually, your the one twisting things and totally ignoring the modern reality to try and spin things your way

I don't blindly believe, if I did I wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation. Bring me a fact, not something you've just come up with out of nowhere. Like how can you explain this...
we been doing this for 50+ pages, you just refuse to admit 2+2=4

My friend's Uncle, was one of the healthiest, best athletes, and just all around just the ideal physical specimen. Yet Thanksgiving day he wakes up out of nowhere with this huge pain in his stomach, goes to the hospital, and they found a tumor the size of a football in his stomach. They found out that it was cancerous and told him he had a couple of weeks, to a couple of months to live. So this is something that science proved to in fact be real, and be there.

Yet, a few weeks later he went back in and without surgery, without anything going on because they didn't think chemo was worth it, the tumor was gone, and he was given a 100% clean bill of health.

What does your science have to say about that? Cause I know what the non-Christian doctor said. And I assure you it had nothing to do with science, medicine or anything else 'tangible'
Obviously your god decided to heal him but not the other 100000000 sick people, it's the only possible explanation!

[Henini]

I really do feel for you guy/gal. Hope for your sake you're right about everything, sure would hate for it to all come down to the end for you to find out just how wrong and deceived you were.


Yes, I do live my life in fear of going to hell lloooll

[RocketMoose]

Yes, I do live my life in fear of going to hell lloooll

I don't live my life in fear of going to Hell either, I know where I'm going to end up...

[Slathar]

I don't live my life in fear of going to Hell either, I know where I'm going to end up...

so you believe that an invisible entity created man from clay, woman from clayman's rib? then the man made from clay was told to eat a magical apple by an evil talking snake. the clayman eats the magical apple and we are now punished forever because of a man made of clay being tricked by a talking snake.

sounds pretty logical and sound to me!

[chtulu]

You have yet to refute anything I have to say with anything other than playground tactics. You can attempt to demean me, and act as if I have no ability to reason, when the fact remains, I'm still here, I still can debate, and I will continue to debate, using my 'evolved' mind.

I can flip what you say just as you can attempt to flip what I say. Watch:

I can see how you can't grasp or comprehend anything about God and creation, it must be a very scary world you live in, having to go around believing that everything is random happenstance and that you only exist by pure chance. Oh wait, you were 'chosen' by evolution, since that's the explanation to everything.

See how easy that is? Oh wait, I'm not supposed to be able to do that because I have no ability to grasp, or comprehend anything you say though, cause you operate on much more evolved level than I do.

I really do feel for you guy/gal. Hope for your sake you're right about everything, sure would hate for it to all come down to the end for you to find out just how wrong and deceived you were.


Life is actually much more complex, and beautiful and worth appreciating when you take out God as the answer to everything. Evolution and life itself is an amazing, and complex process. Saying that we were put here in one day and that women came from the rib of man really demeans our existence. To say that we are the product of some bored natural super being that has an inferiority complex and demands worship is quite insulting and depressing.

Also, there are a few philosophical arguments that toy with the thought of no god.

William Grey says this:

1. The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.

2. The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.

3. The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.

4. The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.

5. Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of existent creator who can conceive a greater being - namely one who created everything while not existing.

6. An existing God therefore would not be being greater than which a greater cannot be conceived because an even more formidable and incredible creator would be a God which did not exist.

Ergo:


7. God does not exist.

This was a response to st Anselm of Canterbury's argument.

The point that these arguments are completely philosophical with no real merit other than a slightly amusing thought to entertain yourself with for a few minutes.

The only two things that we can not explain are the exact moment life began and the exact process from non-living to living and the what was before the "big bang"(which, a lot of scientists are offering several theories, one or two saying that nothing was after the big bang, to others saying this is only one of an infinite amount of big bangs this universe has seen).

God's explanation? He just did it for the lulz.

[Slathar]

I don't live my life in fear of going to Hell either, I know where I'm going to end up...

you'll be rotting in the ground with the rest of us. go vote a straight GOP ticket and go back to your mud-walled hut in Mid-America and pretend your god exists while the parts of america that matter laugh at you for your childish, ignorant beliefs.

[quellren]

I don't live my life in fear of going to Hell either, I know where I'm going to end up...


In the dirt. Decomposing. Just like every other carbon-based thing on this planet.

[RocketMoose]

non-sequitur, unless you're confusing genetic variation with learned behavior in which case lol

Hardly so, you fail to comprehend the complexity of what I'm talking about apparently. I was trying to dumb it down for you, since you fail to understand anything else I have to say.

False premise, once again apparent confusion of genetic variation with physical conditioning

Again, you fail to comprehend what is going on here, can you please wake up and see what's going on?

Oh no! An unfalsifiable anecdotal story with no supporting evidence! Evolution has been disproved.
See, if this were anecdotal then you'd have something, but this isn't a story I made up, this is something that is very real, and very verifiable by not only that doctor, but by this man's family, and by his church, and his community.

The huge misconception that you have here, is that the burden of proof is on me to DISprove the THEORY of evolution. So, good luck, continue to postulate on the your theory, and laugh at real life situations. Sad life you have buddy.

[Slathar]

See, if this were anecdotal then you'd have something, but this isn't a story I made up, this is something that is very real, and very verifiable by not only that doctor, but by this man's family, and by his church, and his community.

The huge misconception that you have here, is that the burden of proof is on me to DISprove the THEORY of evolution. So, good luck, continue to postulate on the your theory, and laugh at real life situations. Sad life you have buddy.


you're stupid and arguing for religion just makes you look even worse. give it up, your god isn't real. the church worked long ago because people were stupid. people aren't stupid anymore. live in the now. realize that faith in the christian god is a justification of being ignorant, racist, and violent toward other people.

[RocketMoose]

Also, there are a few philosophical arguments that toy with the thought of no god.

William Grey says this:

1. The creation of the world is the most marvelous achievement imaginable.

2. The merit of an achievement is the product of (a) its intrinsic quality, and (b) the ability of its creator.

3. The greater the disability (or handicap) of the creator, the more impressive the achievement.

4. The most formidable handicap for a creator would be non-existence.

5. Therefore if we suppose that the universe is the product of existent creator who can conceive a greater being - namely one who created everything while not existing.

6. An existing God therefore would not be being greater than which a greater cannot be conceived because an even more formidable and incredible creator would be a God which did not exist.

Ergo:


7. God does not exist.

This was a response to st Anselm of Canterbury's argument.

The point that these arguments are completely philosophical with no real merit other than a slightly amusing thought to entertain yourself with for a few minutes.

Your entire theory is based on a statement of pure opinion. Thus is flawed and again, irrelevant.

I'm done 'discussing' things with you, and any like you. I've done my part, and shown that you can't disprove God. There are many stories of God interacting with man, there are many things I've witnessed in my life that just shatter everything you want to make up, which is fine, you'll write them off as something I've just made up, or hallucinated, and that's fine if that's your justification for it all. But I know, that I know, that I know, and you can't prove otherwise.

Good luck to ya, hope you're right. But in the event you actually become aware that there is more to life than you are currently capable of conceiving, then that'll be a happy day.

[RocketMoose]

you're stupid and arguing for religion just makes you look even worse. give it up, your god isn't real. the church worked long ago because people were stupid. people aren't stupid anymore. live in the now. realize that faith in the christian god is a justification of being ignorant, racist, and violent toward other people.

You can call me stupid, and you can say I look bad. That's fine, I do live in the now, and God still works, and God is still present.

At no point am I racist, ignorant, or violent. But nice job trying to force that on me, and pigeon hole me into what your misconception of a Christian is.

[RocketMoose]

In the dirt. Decomposing. Just like every other carbon-based thing on this planet.

In part, you're correct, but you see, there's more to man than just a physical body. Spirit, Soul, and Mind. 2 of those aren't physical things, yet you just seem to believe that there's only 1 of the 3 dimensions of a human that is relevant. Sad for you.

[Slathar]

how about this verse justifying slavery:

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

they love gays too:

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

preaching lies that must be believed as well:

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


how can anyone take this seriously beyond the age of 12 seriously

[Slathar]

how about this verse justifying slavery:

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

they love gays too:

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

preaching lies that must be believed as well:

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


how can anyone take this seriously beyond the age of 12 seriously

im not pigeon holing you, im taking verses from your fairy tale that you believe in. it is very violent and bigoted. are you saying that you don't believe? you'll fry!

[Harrison]

you have 5 friends?

WOW I wish I was cool like you, then I could have at least 5 friends as well.

Wow, you're a genius. Did you lose sleep with that one, or did it come naturally?

I have 5 friends playing on p99, at least.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

you'll be rotting in the ground with the rest of us. go vote a straight GOP ticket and go back to your mud-walled hut in Mid-America and pretend your god exists while the parts of america that matter laugh at you for your childish, ignorant beliefs.

So in order to have faith in Jesus, you must vote GOP and live in middle America? Wow. Can we say broad generalizations? But I guess coming from someone so superior...coming from a part of the country that matters...what more could I expect?

Let me try your logic here. You live on one of the coasts. You vote democrat. You think you are far more intelligent than you really are. You hang out with hipsters who are probably much younger than you, but accept you as a novelty. You feel that your liberal social views make you seem "cooler" to the crowd you hang with. You cannot take to side of what is right for fear of being unpopular. You are probably taking some sort of government hand-out. You work a very low-paying job, but one that gives you plenty of free time to smoke pot, hang out with friends at the coffee shop, and read really bad Russian literature. You refuse to do anything that is considered mainstream because you want to come off as a rebel. You talk about diversity but have no friends of color. You are an expert on other peoples cultures. You like Apple products and anything vintage. You pretend to know what is best for poor people. And to make an ever-growing list shorter...you hate God for not making you a woman.

Did I get it right? Maybe 80-85%...lol.

[Hauling]

Rocketmoose, just because something hasn't been explained yet doesn't mean it can't be explained. How long have we gone not able to explain how a bird flies? If you showed people in the middle ages a television, they'd call it witchcraft and burn you at the stake.

And because you don't understand a theory, or maybe you just haven't studied it, doesn't mean there are gaping holes in it. And your example of an apple tree creating an orange randomly shows me that you have neither studied it nor understand it.

If you need help understanding why some people can be gifted naturally with athletics and some people not, even if they're brothers, I'll explain it to you. The father has two sets of genes that he acquired, one from each of his parents. The mother has two sets of genes that she acquired, one from each of her parents. That is 4 total sets of genes in that gene pool. That couple's son gets two sets of genes at random, one from each parent. Let's say that one of the two sets the father had has athletic abilities (It's not quite that simple, but I'm dumbing it down for you) and the other set the father had has no athletic abilities. And we'll say the two sets the mother has, have no athletic abilities. Now if these two parents have a kid, that kid is going to have a 50/50 chance of getting the genes that have athletic abilities, because he is going to get one of the two sets the father has, one being the set in that gene pool that has the athletic abilities. So, if they have two kids and it's a 50/50 chance that the kid will have natural athletic talent, you can see how it is possible that one kid can get the abilities and one kid that doesn't.

Now let's take this even further. Let's say that the parent's had two kids, one with the athletics and the other without and the parent's didn't have any more kids after that. Suppose those two kids were in a situation where something terrible was happening, like a grizzly bear was chasing them (because they didn't buy my rock) and the one kid, because of his athletics was able to get away and the other kid, who was not athletic at all got eaten. What just happened? If the athletic kid goes on to have kids of his own, there's a chance that those athletic abilities will be passed on to his kids, keeping those special genes in the gene pool. That is how evolution works and I can't make it any clearer than that.

And before you come back with your tired argument of why aren't all people the same then, is it's because we're in a unique time of human history where gene pools are being mixed, especially in the United States. As I said before, it's no coincidence that black people make black babies, or that native hawaiin people share many of the same physical attributes. We also live in a time where physical prowess isn't necessary for our survival. Someone born blind can get along just fine in this world without being eaten by a saber toothed tiger.

There are a couple problems inherent in creationist arguments. First, there is only one source of information used for all of your citations, the bible and that is a sketchy source at best. 2000 years ago there weren't many literate people. So, most of these stories got passed on word of mouth. Now I'm sure you've experienced it where someone was telling you about the events of a day you spent with them to someone else and they embellished on the facts a little to make the story more interesting. For instance maybe they were cut off in line at the store by a slightly overweight woman, but they retell the story as being trampled by a whale of a woman. There isn't a whole lot of difference there, but there is exaggeration, even from someone with first hand experience of the events. Now these bible stories have been retold by millions of people over thousands of years, so think of all the exaggerating done in that time. Not only that, way back then, story telling was tv. There were no books that were easily accessible to people even if they could read, so it's expected that there would be even more exaggeration in the stories to make them more interesting and hold an audience's attention. Even accounts of recent historical people have been embellished and are being taught in schools as fact, for instance the business about George Washington cutting down a cherry tree.

Also over 2000 years the bible has gone through many translations and rewrites, if indeed it was meant as a historical account of what occured, much of what actually happened would have been lost. Not only that, for the majority of the history of the bible, it was written by scribes under the employ of whatever the ruling governments were at the time making it biased to whatever their political agendas were.

Second, the default creationist answer is always "god made it that way" and that is the end of their argument. They strategically shift the burden of proof onto the people who oppose their way of thinking and that is not how an argument works. Creationists have a collection of mythical stories handed down over centuries as evidence, scientists have fossil records, repeatable lab experiments and genome maps of many, many different animals that confirm everything evolution theory proposes. Then the creationist says ,"well god made evolution and dna" once again leaving that as the argument and shifting the burden of proof.

Religious people always say they have faith, and they know it in their heart. That's not an argument either. I can say the same thing about my points of view. I know it in my heart that there's no god. I feel it. For a lot of people, especially religious people that is a very scary thing, but it's actually quite liberating. Religious people have an endless battle of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole as the world continues to change and they struggle to make it conform to their beliefs. That's why there's a creationist/evolutionist debate in the first place. A person who is free of religion can see the world for what it really is and doesn't need to fit new discoveries with old beliefs.

Taking this idea further, I do believe religion is holding us back. There are so many ways we could improve the lives of everyone in the world without the religion road block of stem cell research, cloning and human rights reform.

[Slathar]

So in order to have faith in Jesus, you must vote GOP and live in middle America? Wow. Can we say broad generalizations? But I guess coming from someone so superior...coming from a part of the country that matters...what more could I expect?

Let me try your logic here. You live on one of the coasts. You vote democrat. You think you are far more intelligent than you really are. You hang out with hipsters who are probably much younger than you, but accept you as a novelty. You feel that your liberal social views make you seem "cooler" to the crowd you hang with. You cannot take to side of what is right for fear of being unpopular. You are probably taking some sort of government hand-out. You work a very low-paying job, but one that gives you plenty of free time to smoke pot, hang out with friends at the coffee shop, and read really bad Russian literature. You refuse to do anything that is considered mainstream because you want to come off as a rebel. You talk about diversity but have no friends of color. You are an expert on other peoples cultures. You like Apple products and anything vintage. You pretend to know what is best for poor people. And to make an ever-growing list shorter...you hate God for not making you a woman.

Did I get it right? Maybe 80-85%...lol.

completely wrong on almost every level, go tune in to fox news and eat your hungryman, hurry

[Slathar]

So in order to have faith in Jesus, you must vote GOP and live in middle America? Wow. Can we say broad generalizations? But I guess coming from someone so superior...coming from a part of the country that matters...what more could I expect?

Let me try your logic here. You live on one of the coasts. You vote democrat. You think you are far more intelligent than you really are. You hang out with hipsters who are probably much younger than you, but accept you as a novelty. You feel that your liberal social views make you seem "cooler" to the crowd you hang with. You cannot take to side of what is right for fear of being unpopular. You are probably taking some sort of government hand-out. You work a very low-paying job, but one that gives you plenty of free time to smoke pot, hang out with friends at the coffee shop, and read really bad Russian literature. You refuse to do anything that is considered mainstream because you want to come off as a rebel. You talk about diversity but have no friends of color. You are an expert on other peoples cultures. You like Apple products and anything vintage. You pretend to know what is best for poor people. And to make an ever-growing list shorter...you hate God for not making you a woman.

Did I get it right? Maybe 80-85%...lol.

can you also provide some examples of bad russian lit? and what do you mean by government hand outs?

im not in the highest income level this year, but im certainly way above the average and id be happy to pay more taxes. i also volunteered about 500 hours last year.

[purist]

The huge misconception that you have here, is that the burden of proof is on me to DISprove the THEORY of evolution.

I can only assume that you emphasize the word 'theory' here out of a mistaken belief that the word 'theory' carries the same connotations in the world of science as it does in our everyday use of the word. That is, of being an unproven, undetermined or hypothetical belief. And therefore allowing you to dismiss evolution as "just a theory!"

No, it is as factual of "a theory" as the THEORY of gravity, or the THEORY of atoms or the THEORY of germs.

[RocketMoose]

how about this verse justifying slavery:

Exodus 21:20-21 "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

they love gays too:

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

preaching lies that must be believed as well:

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


how can anyone take this seriously beyond the age of 12 seriously

Funny that when you take things out of context, or simply can't read them properly how you can change your view of things. How about what leads up to those 2 verses in Thessalonians? What about what comes right after? Hilarious that you get to pick and choose what you want from the Bible to attempt to disprove it, yet if I went into your precious writings of all the 'brilliant' minds who have been unable to prove a theory that they hold so dear to. That I could make it say whatever I wanted to as well.

See, you go back into Leviticus and you're taking it as law, but what you don't know, or don't understand, is that the Old Testament law wasn't done away with but it was however fulfilled with the blood sacrifice of Jesus. So he fulfilled these things, where in does it say to hate the gay? No where, it does however say that homosexuality is detestable, and why were they to be killed? For the blood...but see Jesus already paid that sacrifice, so now they can live, and have the opportunity to come to forgiveness.

It's also funny how you can not understand translations, especially when people translate the bible from a translation, those are irrelevant. In Exodus they're talking about if he beats his slave to death, that's not cool. If he beats his slave to the point where he can recover, then that's okay because he's only hurting his own property. See, that's part of culture, and in fact you can't understand that what was being said there, is if you keep killing your slaves, you're going to get yours, so be better to them.

Ah, I've spent enough time here. You will attempt to refute things you don't understand with things that are simple.

Proverbs 1 you should check it out.

You act as if the warnings aren't there, that as if God is trying to trick people so he can be 'mean' and punish people.

You're just going to sit here and keep calling me names, telling me how stupid I am, yet never being able to disprove anything I say. It's funny how that works, you get mad cause you have no proof that God doesn't exist, and you resort to the playground tactics yet again and call me indirectly a 12 yr. old.

Good luck to you, and all of yours. For your sake I hope you're right, but when the time comes, don't say no one tried to tell you about Jesus.

[chtulu]

Funny that when you take things out of context, or simply can't read them properly how you can change your view of things. How about what leads up to those 2 verses in Thessalonians? What about what comes right after? Hilarious that you get to pick and choose what you want from the Bible to attempt to disprove it, yet if I went into your precious writings of all the 'brilliant' minds who have been unable to prove a theory that they hold so dear to. That I could make it say whatever I wanted to as well.

See, you go back into Leviticus and you're taking it as law, but what you don't know, or don't understand, is that the Old Testament law wasn't done away with but it was however fulfilled with the blood sacrifice of Jesus. So he fulfilled these things, where in does it say to hate the gay? No where, it does however say that homosexuality is detestable, and why were they to be killed? For the blood...but see Jesus already paid that sacrifice, so now they can live, and have the opportunity to come to forgiveness.

It's also funny how you can not understand translations, especially when people translate the bible from a translation, those are irrelevant. In Exodus they're talking about if he beats his slave to death, that's not cool. If he beats his slave to the point where he can recover, then that's okay because he's only hurting his own property. See, that's part of culture, and in fact you can't understand that what was being said there, is if you keep killing your slaves, you're going to get yours, so be better to them.

Ah, I've spent enough time here. You will attempt to refute things you don't understand with things that are simple.

Proverbs 1 you should check it out.

You act as if the warnings aren't there, that as if God is trying to trick people so he can be 'mean' and punish people.

You're just going to sit here and keep calling me names, telling me how stupid I am, yet never being able to disprove anything I say. It's funny how that works, you get mad cause you have no proof that God doesn't exist, and you resort to the playground tactics yet again and call me indirectly a 12 yr. old.

Good luck to you, and all of yours. For your sake I hope you're right, but when the time comes, don't say no one tried to tell you about Jesus.

Or Muhammad

or any of the norse gods

Aesir Principal race of gods in Norse mythology.
Andhrimnir The cook of the Aesir.
Angrboda Goddess and wife of Loki
Astrild Goddess of love.
Atla Water goddess.
Audhumla The primeval cow, formed from the melting ice.
Balder Fairest of the gods
Beyla The servant of Freyr.
Borghild Goddess of the evening mist or moon, she slays the sun each evening.
Bragi God of poets and the patron of all skaldi (poets) in Norse culture.
Brono The son of Balder. He is the god of daylight.
Bylgia Water goddess.
Dagur The personification of day, he drives the day chariot across the sky.
Disen A group of goddess in old Norse mythology. Called the "Dis of the Vanir".
Eir Goddess of healing and shamanic healers, companion of the goddess Frigg
Elli Goddess of old age.
Fenrir Also known as Fenris. The great wolf, child of Loki and Angrboda
Forseti God of justice who settles court disputes in his gilded hall.
Freya Goddess of love, beauty and sensuality.
Freyr God of fertility, sun and rain.
Frigg Wife of Odin and the goddess of marriage and fertility.
Gefion Goddess of agriculture and the plough.
Gerd The wife of Freyr and a goddess of fertility. She is the personification of the fertile soil.
Heimdall God of light and protection.
Hel The goddess of death and ruler of the realm of the dead.
Hermod The messenger of the gods. Often equated to the Greek god Hermes.
Hod Blind god of darkness and winter.
Holler God of disease and destruction.
Idun Goddess of the spring, eternal youth and the keeper of the golden apples
Jord Goddess of the primitive and unpopulated earth.
Jormungand The Midgard Serpent
Kari Leader of the storm giants.
Kvasir The wisest of the Vanir gods.
Laga Goddess of wells and springs.
Lofn Goddess of forbidden love, who blesses all illicit love affairs.
Loki Trickster god of the Norse, concerned with thievery, magic and fire.
Magni Son of Thor and god of brute strength.
Mani God of the moon and brother of the sun goddess Sol.
Miming Minor forest god.
Mimir Wisest god of the Aesir, sent in a hostage trade to the rival Vanir gods.
Modi God of battle wrath, he was the leader of the berserkers.
Njord God of the sea, wind and fire. He bestows good fortune to those on the sea.
Norns The triple goddesses of fate and destiny.
Nott Goddess of night who mans the night-charion in it's track through the sky.
Odin The chief god of the Aesir and most important of the Norse deities.
Ran Goddess of storms and the drowned dead.
Saga Goddess of poetry and history.
Sif Wife of Thor, and possibly an ancient fertility goddess.
Sjofn Goddess of love, passion and marital harmony.
Skadi A frost giant and goddess of winter.
Sleipnir The eight-legged horse of Odin
Sol Goddess of the sun, who guides the sun-chariot through the sky.
Syn Goddess of watchfulness and truth.
Thor Thunder-god and the protector of men and gods.
Tyr The original god of war in the Germanic culture
Ull God of justice and duelling, archery and skiing.
Vali Son of Odin, and the god born to avenge the death of Balder.
Valkyries The battle-maidens, who choose the best warriors
Vanir A group of fertility and nature gods
Var Goddess of contracts and marriage agreements
Vidar Son of Odin and the god of silence and vengeance.

OR romans

Apollo
Bacchus
Bellona
Ceres
Cupid
Diana
Faunus
Flora
Janus
Juno
Jupiter
Lares
Libintia
Maia
Mars
Mercury
Minerva
Mithras
Neptune
Ops
Pales
Pluto
Pomona
Proserpine
Saturn
Venus
Vertumnus
Vesta
Vulcan


Roman God of Sun, Music, Poetry, Prophecy, and Healing
Roman God of Wine
Roman Goddess of War
Roman Goddess of Corn
Roman God of Love
Roman Goddess of Fertility, Hunting, and the Moon
Roman God of Prophecy
Roman Goddess of Flowers
Roman God of Gates and Doors
Roman Goddess of Marriage and Women
Supreme King of the Roman Gods
Roman God of Household and Estate
Roman Goddess of Funerals
Roman Goddess of Growth and Increase
Roman God of War
Roman messenger God and Commerce God
Roman Goddess of Wisdom, Arts, and Trade
Roman God of Sun and Light
Roman God of the Sea
Roman Goddess of Fertility
Roman Goddess of Flocks and Sheppard's
Roman God on the Underworld
Roman Goddess of Fruit Trees and Fruit
Roman Goddess of the Underworld
Roman God of Seeds and Harvest
Roman Goddess of Beauty and Love
Roman God of Seasons
Roman Goddess of the Hearth
Roman God of Fire

Or the Irish!

Aine
Angus Og
Anu
Babd Catha
Bel
Bran
Brighid
Bris
Dagda
Danu
Diancecht
Flidais
Labraid
Macha
Niamh


Irish Celtic Goddess of Love and Fertility
Irish Celtic God of Beauty
Irish Celtic Goddess of Manifestation Magick, Moon, Air, Fertility, and Prosperity
Irish Celtic Goddess of War
Irish Celtic God of Fire and Sun
Irish Celtic God of Health
Irish Celtic Goddess of Fire and Water. One of the triple Goddesses
Irish Celtic God of Fertility and Agriculture
Irish Celtic God of the Earth, and father God. Leader of the Tuatha de Danaan
Irish Celtic Goddess of Rivers, Water, Wells, Prosperity, Magick, and Wisdom
Irish Celtic God of Healing and Medicine
Irish Celtic Goddess of Nature, Forests, Woodlands, and Wild Things
Irish Celtic God of the Underworld
Irish Celtic Goddess of Beauty and Brightness
Irish Celtic Goddess of Beauty and Brightness

[Slathar]

Funny that when you take things out of context, or simply can't read them properly how you can change your view of things. How about what leads up to those 2 verses in Thessalonians? What about what comes right after? Hilarious that you get to pick and choose what you want from the Bible to attempt to disprove it, yet if I went into your precious writings of all the 'brilliant' minds who have been unable to prove a theory that they hold so dear to. That I could make it say whatever I wanted to as well.

See, you go back into Leviticus and you're taking it as law, but what you don't know, or don't understand, is that the Old Testament law wasn't done away with but it was however fulfilled with the blood sacrifice of Jesus. So he fulfilled these things, where in does it say to hate the gay? No where, it does however say that homosexuality is detestable, and why were they to be killed? For the blood...but see Jesus already paid that sacrifice, so now they can live, and have the opportunity to come to forgiveness.

It's also funny how you can not understand translations, especially when people translate the bible from a translation, those are irrelevant. In Exodus they're talking about if he beats his slave to death, that's not cool. If he beats his slave to the point where he can recover, then that's okay because he's only hurting his own property. See, that's part of culture, and in fact you can't understand that what was being said there, is if you keep killing your slaves, you're going to get yours, so be better to them.

Ah, I've spent enough time here. You will attempt to refute things you don't understand with things that are simple.

Proverbs 1 you should check it out.

You act as if the warnings aren't there, that as if God is trying to trick people so he can be 'mean' and punish people.

You're just going to sit here and keep calling me names, telling me how stupid I am, yet never being able to disprove anything I say. It's funny how that works, you get mad cause you have no proof that God doesn't exist, and you resort to the playground tactics yet again and call me indirectly a 12 yr. old.

Good luck to you, and all of yours. For your sake I hope you're right, but when the time comes, don't say no one tried to tell you about Jesus.

keep justifying violence and bigotry however you like and lol at your jesus comment

[nalkin]

Sometimes it really freaks me out to realize how much of the world is so blindly religious. I don't get how some people can be seem so normal and then out of the blue just have some completely irrational belief.

Believing in a God or Gods is alright, even though it makes no sense. But actually subscribing to an organized religion like christianity and believing the bible is truth, that is just lol (and also frightening when so much of the world is like that).

But im sure your local pastor has every detail pinned down so keep listening to him...

[RocketMoose]

I can only assume that you emphasize the word 'theory' here out of a mistaken belief that the word 'theory' carries the same connotations in the world of science as it does in our everyday use of the word. That is, of being an unproven, undetermined or hypothetical belief. And therefore allowing you to dismiss evolution as "just a theory!"

No, it is as factual of "a theory" as the THEORY of gravity, or the THEORY of atoms or the THEORY of germs.

Sadly in order to tell you that this isn't worthy of a response, I must respond, but I respond only to tell you that you're wrong.

[chtulu]

See Rocket, if you don't believe in any of these other gods, why is it so difficult to not believe in just one LESS god?

[RocketMoose]

Sometimes it really freaks me out to realize how much of the world is so blindly religious. I don't get how some people can be seem so normal and then out of the blue just have some completely irrational belief.

Believing in a God or Gods is alright, even though it makes no sense. But actually subscribing to an organized religion like christianity and believing the bible is truth, that is just lol (and also frightening when so much of the world is like that).

But im sure your local pastor has every detail pinned down so keep listening to him...

Yep, I believe only in my local pastor, that's it, he tells me everything I need to know...oh wait. This isn't a cult...

Watch how I can flip this, just like you guys try to make everything our fault:

Sometimes it really freaks me out to realize how much of the world is so blindly hateful towards religion. I don't get how some people can be seem so normal and then out of the blue just have some completely irrational belief.

Believing in a theory or theories is alright, even though it makes no sense. But actually subscribing to an organized failure like evolution and believing a theory is truth, that is just lol (and also frightening when so much of the world is like that).

But im sure your local scientist has every detail pinned down so keep listening to him...

[chtulu]

Yep, I believe only in my local pastor, that's it, he tells me everything I need to know...oh wait. This isn't a cult...

Watch how I can flip this, just like you guys try to make everything our fault:

Sometimes it really freaks me out to realize how much of the world is so blindly hateful towards religion. I don't get how some people can be seem so normal and then out of the blue just have some completely irrational belief.

Believing in a theory or theories is alright, even though it makes no sense. But actually subscribing to an organized failure like evolution and believing a theory is truth, that is just lol (and also frightening when so much of the world is like that).

But im sure your local scientist has every detail pinned down so keep listening to him...


I'm curious, why do you think evolution is a lie or conspiracy or false? Or better yet, what did your pastor say? Because i bet money that you didn't just arrive to this conclusion by researching yourself.

[RocketMoose]

See Rocket, if you don't believe in any of these other gods, why is it so difficult to not believe in just one LESS god?

These other 'gods' like 'the sun god' or 'the wind god' 'the rain god' all of those are simply compromised of 1 God. The creator of the universe, the maker of all things, yes, even you. Just because they understand that there is a higher power, doesn't mean they're wrong, just means that they're calling God, by multiple names, which is fine with me. God has many names...

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

can you also provide some examples of bad russian lit? and what do you mean by government hand outs?

im not in the highest income level this year, but im certainly way above the average and id be happy to pay more taxes. i also volunteered about 500 hours last year.

It seems as thought I hit a nerve. That being said, I can assume that I was more right than you want to admit. haha.

Also, I admit to being a proud member of the GOP. I must confess I have never had a Hungry Man in my life, but that is probably because I make more in a month than you make in a year. Yeah, I am one of those GOPers...the other kind...the ones you really hate. You know, the ones that are grossly successful in all aspects of their lives. The ones that you can't stand because you feel they are inferior in every way, yet somehow have more of everything...lol. I'll pray for you little one. Your kind are so cute. : )

[RocketMoose]

I'm curious, why do you think evolution is a lie or conspiracy or false? Or better yet, what did your pastor say? Because i bet money that you didn't just arrive to this conclusion by researching yourself.

My pastor doesn't have anything to do with it. I went to school, I listened to the science teachers, and still no one can give good reasoning behind evolution having not changed humans in the last 6,000+ years. I mean if you want to believe that a gigantic collision happened and from there grew this complexity fine, do your thing. But how you can see that as reasonable is just pure madness.

I mean, by now with all the car crashes etc shouldn't we have spawned at least a few miniature solar systems by now? Those impacts of things hitting the earth and leaving craters a mile wide, shouldn't that have done something for us? I mean seriously, how can people just say, oh well Darwin saw life happening, and realized that people and animals can adapt, oh boy, lets postulate a theory, that to this day can't be proven.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

I'm curious, why do you think evolution is a lie or conspiracy or false? Or better yet, what did your pastor say? Because i bet money that you didn't just arrive to this conclusion by researching yourself.

Ok so answer this. If you took two cats and breed them 1 billion times (impossible but necessary for the argument), what do you end up with? Do you honestly think that one of those billion times will yield a dog, or a moose, or a whale? You may get a different color, or one that has a mutation, but the DNA cannot change to something completely different. Evolution is not possible. Adaptation is. Learn the difference.

[purist]

Sadly in order to tell you that this isn't worthy of a response, I must respond, but I respond only to tell you that you're wrong.

In science, the word "theory" does not mean the same thing as it does in the detective novels you read, where a "theory" is an educated guess based on a few circumstantial facts.

Question: Do you just walk around, positing that the phenomenon of gravity is "just a theory?" Do you think the belief that microorganisms cause disease is "just another theory?" Is our understanding of atoms "just a theory?"

No, these are well-substantiated explanations, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed. Walking around, suggesting that evolution is "just a theory" is no more absurd than saying any of the above are "just theories," and makes you look like a complete retard.

[Slathar]

It seems as thought I hit a nerve. That being said, I can assume that I was more right than you want to admit. haha.

Also, I admit to being a proud member of the GOP. I must confess I have never had a Hungry Man in my life, but that is probably because I make more in a month than you make in a year. Yeah, I am one of those GOPers...the other kind...the ones you really hate. You know, the ones that are grossly successful in all aspects of their lives. The ones that you can't stand because you feel they are inferior in every way, yet somehow have more of everything...lol. I'll pray for you little one. Your kind are so cute. : )

you hit a nerve by me replying with a short answer and you write a book

congrats on your being financially mediocre

[Henini]

they love gays too:

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

notice how they say man, not little boys. so that's why all the priests are getting it on with little boys.

we all know this passage implies homosexuality, but see how rocketmoose likes to twist things to make his fantasies true? they do the same here to make it ok to have sex with little boys.

"But what god? it's a boy, not a man!!!"

[RocketMoose]

It seems as thought I hit a nerve. That being said, I can assume that I was more right than you want to admit. haha.

Also, I admit to being a proud member of the GOP. I must confess I have never had a Hungry Man in my life, but that is probably because I make more in a month than you make in a year. Yeah, I am one of those GOPers...the other kind...the ones you really hate. You know, the ones that are grossly successful in all aspects of their lives. The ones that you can't stand because you feel they are inferior in every way, yet somehow have more of everything...lol. I'll pray for you little one. Your kind are so cute. : )

You do realize they're just going to try to make a mockery of the incendiary how much I make in a month vs you in a year comment right?

I'm glad you're blessed and are successful, but throwing that in these people's face isn't really going to prove anything to them, except that people who act like that are how all 'Christians' act.

For sure pray, but your money doesn't really mean much in terms of this debate. It doesn't make you better, and it can all dissipate in a matter of moments. I get the point you're trying to drive home here, but I think even without your comments it's painfully obvious that these guys are severely lacking in many areas and are just looking for someone to blame...

[Henini]

Wow, you're a genius. Did you lose sleep with that one, or did it come naturally?

I have 5 friends playing on p99, at least.

wow you are my new idol!! can I be part of your awesome fan club?

[RocketMoose]

notice how they say man, not little boys. so that's why all the priests are getting it on with little boys.

we all know this passage implies homosexuality, but see how rocketmoose likes to twist things to make his fantasies true? they do the same here to make it ok to have sex with little boys.

"But what god? it's a boy, not a man!!!"

Right, because a man and a boy wouldn't be homosexuality...

I've never, nor will I ever condone this, in fact I believe it's even more detestable, because look here...

Mark 9:42
And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.

Just because a corrupt priest sodomized you when you were a kid, doesn't mean it was right in God's eyes...

[Slathar]

You do realize they're just going to try to make a mockery of the incendiary how much I make in a month vs you in a year comment right?

I'm glad you're blessed and are successful, but throwing that in these people's face isn't really going to prove anything to them, except that people who act like that are how all 'Christians' act.

For sure pray, but your money doesn't really mean much in terms of this debate. It doesn't make you better, and it can all dissipate in a matter of moments. I get the point you're trying to drive home here, but I think even without your comments it's painfully obvious that these guys are severely lacking in many areas and are just looking for someone to blame...

lol christian solidarity right here

[RocketMoose]

lol christian solidarity right here

Right, because I should stand behind someone who is acting like that right? Because that's what Christians do, we all back each other up when we're wrong, we never call each other out and try to better one another? Man, what in your life made you so mad?

[quellren]

Yes, but you see, at some point we did come from primates right? So in this theory that you've postalized (I assume you mean postulated) then there would still be a need for some of these monkeys to become humans in order to survive as we continue to kill off their natural habitats thus forcing out their food supply vs population and forcing someone to survive and some to fail. So right now this process would still be happening. Same would be true for a human that is forced to live out in the caves, and do things only at night he would 'devolve' to suit his condition better right?

I don't refute this. The difference is you haven't been around for 10,000 years to watch what happens to the monkeys in the Amazon with no trees to live in. Give it enough time and you WOULD see that some phenotypical expressions would come to dominate the population based on those best suited to a new tree-less habitat. It's called fitness.
Also, there is not such thing as devolve, again you equate evolution with increasing complexity and comparison to a standard set by present-day Homo Sapiens. Increased temperature tolerance and improved night vision would be improvements to compensate for their natural environment of caves and nighttime activity. Not lessened survivability. I don't know how else to explain to you that this can't happen to a person, or even a persons progeny 10 generations later. It takes a population, like if maybe a thousand people lived this way, you *might* see changes in 100 generations. Assuming they bred by fitness selection. I'm not even gonna get into Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium. It's lost on you right now.

You have these gaping holes that you can't explain. Your 2 nice neat vacuum scenarios don't work in the real life situation.

Actually they work perfectly well. Members of a population that are able to survive better than another member breed more, and those offspring survive better than those less capable. Over time, the less capable ones are found less and less in the population, unless those traits are advantageous elsewhere. I don't even understand how you can argue against this.

It's just like physics in a classroom, they designate a coefficient of friction etc to come up with a world to do their work, and prove that they are right. Those truths are in fact in the world, and absolutely make perfect sense, because they are out there, but those scenarios you present don't disprove God, or prove evolution.

So now you're going to refute physics too? Those 'made up' lab coeffecients are derived from real world data, and implemented to improve the accuracy of data in a lab setting. You can't calculate wind drag on an object falling 10 feet, and it's not feasible to drop something from 1000 for the sake of measurement. So, does gravity exist, or is it just that God that pushes things to the ground so they don't end up cluttering up Heaven? LoL.

Never in the Bible did it say that man can't adapt, that God's creation can't change in order to be better at things. That's why we practice, it's not because our bodies don't have the ability to do things, it's that we haven't learned how to do them, or haven't learned how to do them as effectively as possible.

Again, you seem to be arguing that you or I, on a personal level could evolve. That's just not so. You need to distinguish a learned behavior from genetic fitness. Playing baseball well doesn't improve your survival odds.

If evolution were true, then how is it that just innately that some people in today's generation have 0 physical ability to do something athletic. The skinny guys, and girls who end up behind a computer with the typical stereotype. Then same can be said for guys who are just innately born with a gift for athletics, even if their parents weren't. Same would be true with the monkeys. Not every small agile monkey would be the best climber, not every big powerful monkey would be unable to climb well. I mean c'mon, seriously, in the 'perfect world' that you've created, absolutely it makes perfect since, but there are things that science can not yet explain, that are out there.

I won't pretend that my comparative scenario wasn't oversimplified. But it still holds true statistically. Organisms well suited to their environment live longer, and are more sexually attractive to a potential mate than those less suited. More attractive= more dissemination of genetic material=more organisms that have the same traits.
The reason we see discrepancies in human breeding in your life is simple: People don't choose mates on fitness anymore. They haven't in probably 3000 years. In a civilized society, there is no survival benefit to being faster, or taller, or stronger. When people stopped hunting for survival, being able to provide for family better than another became less of a breeding consideration. Today, people breed on 1) physical appearance (to which I could engage on a totally new tangent of conversation that this is actually HARMFUL to human evolution) and 2) personality (which arguably has little benefit to ensuring fitness of progeny.)

I have a buddy of mine, amazing athlete, his brother by the same parents, no athletic ability what so ever. They were raised in the same house, doing similar activities, in what way does this support your theory of blacks being born to blacks etc?

I'm not sure I understand the point of your thinly veiled racism. Black parents create black children. Take genetics 101, it'll explain everything. In the spirit of debate, I'll play along. This is genetics at work. Genotypic information is literally a crapshoot. Not everyone gets exactly the same combination of genetic information, not even from the same parents. Do us both a favor and google 'Punnett sqare' for a super simple crash-course. If those brothers were born 30,000 years ago, the athletic one would likely be more attractive to a mate, and almost certainly pass along his genetic information, probably to more than one partner, and many offspring. The other, may mate, but almost certainly less so, and thus his genes would be under-represented in that generation.

People keep saying I'm the one with no reason, yet when I come to you with a real world scenario you're not going to have anything to say, because science can't say why, because science isn't creation.

Science doesn't just chalk it up to God's plan, and call it day. Science questions and tests until a satisfactory understanding is attained.

I don't blindly believe, if I did I wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation. Bring me a fact, not something you've just come up with out of nowhere. Like how can you explain this...

My friend's Uncle, was one of the healthiest, best athletes, and just all around just the ideal physical specimen. Yet Thanksgiving day he wakes up out of nowhere with this huge pain in his stomach, goes to the hospital, and they found a tumor the size of a football in his stomach. They found out that it was cancerous and told him he had a couple of weeks, to a couple of months to live. So this is something that science proved to in fact be real, and be there.

Yet, a few weeks later he went back in and without surgery, without anything going on because they didn't think chemo was worth it, the tumor was gone, and he was given a 100% clean bill of health.

What does your science have to say about that? Cause I know what the non-Christian doctor said. And I assure you it had nothing to do with science, medicine or anything else 'tangible'

There are so many variables in that story it would be laughable to even entertain the 'why'. You gave ZERO context in that story. If forced, I would first look at a faulty machine, or him being mistakenly given another's results.

Counter-question: Why would God give him a football-sized tumor, and then suddenly take it away?

[Harrison]

You drooling morons can't get off the Judeo-Christian hate wagon long enough to realize how dumb you sound.

That isn't the only belief set out there about existence, retards.

[Slathar]

You drooling morons can't get off the Judeo-Christian hate wagon long enough to realize how dumb you sound.

That isn't the only belief set out there about existence, retards.

but it is a large contributor to a lot of hate, war, and ignorance in the world today along with islam

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

you hit a nerve by me replying with a short answer and you write a book

congrats on your being financially mediocre

Ah, very cute. Dismissing me with a slight. I won't argue my finances with a burger flipper. That being said, have fun at the drive-thru. Maybe if you believed in a higher power he could help you be happier and find more confidence. Employers like that. I know I do. Good luck trying to find you way. We all know that Atheist argue on forums to finally have someone convince them that is alright to believe. Hopefully this forum will be the one. :D

[Slathar]

Ah, very cute. Dismissing me with a slight. I won't argue my finances with a burger flipper. That being said, have fun at the drive-thru. Maybe if you believed in a higher power he could help you be happier and find more confidence. Employers like that. I know I do. Good luck trying to find you way. We all know that Atheist argue on forums to finally have someone convince them that is alright to believe. Hopefully this forum will be the one. :D

prove your monthly income or you're another wage slave joke

[Henini]

See, you go back into Leviticus and you're taking it as law, but what you don't know, or don't understand, is that the Old Testament law wasn't done away with but it was however fulfilled with the blood sacrifice of Jesus. So he fulfilled these things, where in does it say to hate the gay? No where, it does however say that homosexuality is detestable, and why were they to be killed? For the blood...but see Jesus already paid that sacrifice, so now they can live, and have the opportunity to come to forgiveness.
are you saying that Jesus died for the gay community?

It's also funny how you can not understand translations, especially when people translate the bible from a translation, those are irrelevant. In Exodus they're talking about if he beats his slave to death, that's not cool. If he beats his slave to the point where he can recover, then that's okay because he's only hurting his own property. See, that's part of culture, and in fact you can't understand that what was being said there, is if you keep killing your slaves, you're going to get yours, so be better to them.
I'm sorry I didn't realize you where the one deciding what got lost in translation and rewritings of so man years and linguists and such

[Harrison]

but it is a large contributor to a lot of hate, war, and ignorance in the world today along with islam

True, but that doesn't by any means discredit the existence of any God in any way.

For all you know, God is a massive dickhead. Contradictions in writings by MAN do not make for good "proof" that a God doesn't exist.

[Hauling]

You drooling morons can't get off the Judeo-Christian hate wagon long enough to realize how dumb you sound.

That isn't the only belief set out there about existence, retards.

Let's here your arguments about existence then. Or is name calling how you argue?

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

but it is a large contributor to a lot of hate, war, and ignorance in the world today along with islam

The Atheist are the ones that contribute to hate (see I can do it too), as for wars...The history of human warfare goes back to the beginning of recorded history (and, no doubt, well before that). A recent comprehensive compilation of the history of human warfare, Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to involve a religious conflict. So, what atheists have considered to be "most" really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. It is interesting to note that 66 of these wars (more than 50%) involved Islam, which did not even exist as a religion for the first 3,000 years of recorded human warfare. Finally, ignorance is a product of all humans...no one has the market cornered on that one.

[RocketMoose]

Point is, none of this disproves God, or proves evolution.

yes, I screwed up on postulated, I must have been way off cause that was what the auto correct selected, lol oops.

The thing is in the last 6,000+ years what significant changes have happened? We're generally bigger, but why is that? Because we pump steroids into everything, that's trackable over the last even 100 years, but from 6k-even as recent at 60 years ago this wasn't the case. So I don't have to be around 10k years to see that nothing is changing in 60% of the 'window' We then introduced a steroid which causes early maturation and growth and you're giving credit to evolution, when in fact it's simply a growth hormone thing.

I didn't say Physics wasn't true, I said the numbers are used in a vacuum. It's not real world, because when you take physics and apply it, without having the proper coefficients of friction and the like it comes out wrong.

I'm not saying don't question, and don't test. In fact have fun with it, test until your hearts content, you're just going to find in the end, as all the missing pieces fill in, that it only further proves the existence of a Divine creator, not some gigantic collision.

As far as many things missing, I left a lot out for reasons that it's a personal story, I can assure you the test results were his, it's not like they only tested him once, or even on the same machine, both human error, et all were eliminated due to the wonderful 'science'

Counter response:
Why does God have to get the blame for the tumor? You think only God is at work in this world? If you think that, then I can see why you hate Him so much. God allows things to happen, just like he did to Job in the Bible, when he lost more than you and I and all of p99 combined could ever own, but never disavowed his trust in God. Just because we're allowed to walk through trials, and we're allowed to make our own choices doesn't mean God doesn't exist, or God doesn't care, nor does it mean that God gave him a tumor...

[RocketMoose]

but it is a large contributor to a lot of hate, war, and ignorance in the world today along with islam

Proof?

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

prove your monthly income or you're another wage slave joke

And I would do that on a public forum for what reason? I know you want to dismiss my success because you feel inferior but unlike you I would never put something so personal on an internet forum. You may be that dumb, I am not...how do you think I got so far in life? I thought you thought you were smarter than that...lol.

[Slathar]

Proof?

are you honestly saying christians are tolerant of homosexuals and minorities and in no way try to influence them otherwise?

[RocketMoose]

I am 100% unequivocally saying that yes, Jesus died for the gay community.

You are not using direct translations, go get me a real translation, then come back to me. You can't just pick up some random version of the Bible that was derived from another version from another version that was originally a direct translation and think that things are going to be right in the final one.

[Slathar]

And I would do that on a public forum for what reason? I know you want to dismiss my success because you feel inferior but unlike you I would never put something so personal on an internet forum. You may be that dumb, I am not...how do you think I got so far in life? I thought you thought you were smarter than that...lol.

dismissed and not credible

how guys look im successful and a doctor i also own a plane

[RocketMoose]

are you honestly saying christians are tolerant of homosexuals and minorities and in no way try to influence them otherwise?

I am tolerant of homosexuals, just not homosexuality, I don't think you understand the difference.

Minorities, what are you talking about?

Are you trying to say that only religious people attempt to sway people?

[RocketMoose]

And I would do that on a public forum for what reason? I know you want to dismiss my success because you feel inferior but unlike you I would never put something so personal on an internet forum. You may be that dumb, I am not...how do you think I got so far in life? I thought you thought you were smarter than that...lol.

Dude, step back for a second, seriously, you're not helping anything, you're only fanning the flames. Congrats on being successful, now step back and look at what you're doing. For cryin out loud, do you want to just further embed his belief that all Christians are douchebags?

[guineapig]

Ok so answer this. If you took two cats and breed them 1 billion times (impossible but necessary for the argument), what do you end up with? Do you honestly think that one of those billion times will yield a dog, or a moose, or a whale? You may get a different color, or one that has a mutation, but the DNA cannot change to something completely different. Evolution is not possible. Adaptation is. Learn the difference.

Now try that with single celled organisms, lots of them... and make sure they are spread out through all the water on earth so different colonies of these organisms are living in different climates/ecosystems. You can see where I am getting at with this.

Ever wonder where new breeds of dogs come from? It doesn't take a billion times, or even a million to start changes. Yeah, it's still a dog but hardly the same animal. You do realize that a Pit Bulls and Jack Russels are both terriers, right?

[RocketMoose]

What Boggwin is doing is no better than what any of these people calling me an idiot, or a moron are doing. It's playground etiquette, it's not how Christians are supposed to act, but it IS how most "Christians" act.

Christians aren't perfect, and we're not the standard to live by, but we're supposed to strive to be better than that.

[RocketMoose]

Now try that with single celled organisms, lots of them... and make sure they are spread out through all the water on earth so different colonies of these organisms are living in different climates/ecosystems. You can see where I am getting at with this.

Ever wonder where new breeds of dogs come from? It doesn't take a billion times, or even a million to start changes. Yeah, it's still a dog but hardly the same animal. You do realize that a Pit Bulls and Jack Russels are both terriers, right?

This is not evolution...this is mixed breeding...same as why humans are taller, fatter, and hit puberty at younger ages now than ever before...we have introduced artificial stimulants.

[Henini]

Proof?

lol nice troll post! you keep getting better and better!

or did you just come out of a box and are totally oblivious about anything and everything?

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

dismissed and not credible

how guys look im successful and a doctor i also own a plane

If it makes you feel better, I will give that to you...hehe. I could I expect someone who has no faith to take my word for it. Must you see everything to believe? I know you have never seen the bottom of the ocean, but it does exist. You have probably never seen a baby pigeon, but they do exist. What about a clean apartment? They do exist. I could go on. Why would you believe those things exist and not my wealth? Because those things do not threaten your manhood and your sense of self importance. Kind of like God. OUCH!

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

Now try that with single celled organisms, lots of them... and make sure they are spread out through all the water on earth so different colonies of these organisms are living in different climates/ecosystems. You can see where I am getting at with this.

Ever wonder where new breeds of dogs come from? It doesn't take a billion times, or even a million to start changes. Yeah, it's still a dog but hardly the same animal. You do realize that a Pit Bulls and Jack Russels are both terriers, right?

Like Rocket said earlier...that is mixed breeding not evolution. Nice try genius...lmao. Try breeding a cat and dog. What do you get then? Nothing. Because it cannot be done...lol.

[Hauling]

Where do you think domestic dogs came from in the first place? They were wild animals that were tamed and bred for their tameness by man. Over time the domestic dog became a species of its own while the wild counterparts evolved into wolves, coyotes and other animals of a different species that will not mate with the domestic dog. It is possible to mate them and you can produce a hybrid animal, but that animal will be sterile and will not be able to have any offspring of its own.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

are you honestly saying christians are tolerant of homosexuals and minorities and in no way try to influence them otherwise?

Tolerant...yes. Accepting of...no. Huge difference. You tolerate, or maybe not, Christians. You do not accept their views. As for minorities, what? We both tolerate and accept them. Blacks and browns are some of the most devote Christians among us. Nice try.

[Slathar]

If it makes you feel better, I will give that to you...hehe. I could I expect someone who has no faith to take my word for it. Must you see everything to believe? I know you have never seen the bottom of the ocean, but it does exist. You have probably never seen a baby pigeon, but they do exist. What about a clean apartment? They do exist. I could go on. Why would you believe those things exist and not my wealth? Because those things do not threaten your manhood and your sense of self importance. Kind of like God. OUCH!

you sound mad

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

Where do you think domestic dogs came from in the first place? They were wild animals that were tamed and bred for their tameness by man. Over time the domestic dog became a species of its own while the wild counterparts evolved into wolves, coyotes and other animals of a different species that will not mate with the domestic dog. It is possible to mate them and you can produce a hybrid animal, but that animal will be sterile and will not be able to have any offspring of its own.

That is because they are of the same family. Kind of like a horse and a mule. That is not evolution...it is still mixed breeding. Try again.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

you sound mad

Not at all. I am not the one angry at God. I am very happy. But if you want to call me mad to make other people on the forum think you "won", I am mad...hehe.

[quellren]

My pastor doesn't have anything to do with it. I went to school, I listened to the science teachers, and still no one can give good reasoning behind evolution having not changed humans in the last 6,000+ years. I mean if you want to believe that a gigantic collision happened and from there grew this complexity fine, do your thing. But how you can see that as reasonable is just pure madness.

We haven't evolved in 6000 years because 1) we're well suited to the environment we exist in. and 2) (1.5?) anything we aren't well suited for, we simply modify. Too cold out? doesn't matter anymore. we have central heating. The impetus for change is no longer there in the same way it used to be.

I mean, by now with all the car crashes etc shouldn't we have spawned at least a few miniature solar systems by now? Those impacts of things hitting the earth and leaving craters a mile wide, shouldn't that have done something for us? I mean seriously, how can people just say, oh well Darwin saw life happening, and realized that people and animals can adapt, oh boy, lets postulate a theory, that to this day can't be proven.

I have zero ability to understand how you can somehow equate the energy of the first moments of the universe with that of a car crash, or a meteor impact.

[Slathar]

Not at all. I am not the one angry at God. I am very happy. But if you want to call me mad to make other people on the forum think you "won", I am mad...hehe.

yeah i knew you were mad. people who talk about how much money they make usually don't have much. i love how insecure you are though :D

[Henini]

it's not like dogs have any need to change trough out the ages. they are pets. they don't hunt or fight to stay alive. and for the past few centuries, we have been breeding them to our liking.

now that humans are civilized, we evolve still but in a different way.

Like:

slavery
womens right
science

this is our evolution now. we started walking because of a need, now our need is for equal right for women, or all human beings. we have a need to understand things, we answer it (or try to at least) with science.

that's not 50000 years ago. when was slavery abolished in the states again?
when were the salaries for women made to be equal to men?

Heck, in some places of the world women are still treated as lesser beings. so that's happening now.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

yeah i knew you were mad. people who talk about how much money they make usually don't have much. i love how insecure you are though :D

Hehe. Nice try. Just because you are scared to believe that there are people out there that make more than you does not mean that I don't. I mentioned money...you are the one that keeps dwelling on it and asking me about it. Poor little guy. Next.

[Henini]

I have zero ability to understand how you can somehow equate the energy of the first moments of the universe with that of a car crash, or a meteor impact.

neither does he but he doesn't need to, because if god wanted him to know, he would have made him know (magically, with his gm powers.. I mean god powers)

[Slathar]

Hehe. Nice try. Just because you are scared to believe that there are people out there that make more than you does not mean that I don't. I mentioned money...you are the one that keeps dwelling on it and asking me about it. Poor little guy. Next.

very christian to brag about how much money you (dont) make too lawl

[Hauling]

That is because they are of the same family. Kind of like a horse and a mule. That is not evolution...it is still mixed breeding. Try again.

From Wikipedia and any good biology book:

In biology, a species is one of the basic units of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring.

I'd like to see you try to breed a horse and a mule. Mules are the sterile offspring of a horse and a donkey, also called a hybrid. If it's sterile, it cannot pass its genes on. That is a dead end in evolution.

Domestic dogs are not a dead end. They can reproduce and make more dogs. They cannot, however, have fertile offspring with wolves, a wild animal that shares its roots with the dog, because wolves are a different species. Domestic dogs are a new species created by man as the result of evolution.

I don't think it could be explained in any way you'll ever understand and I can't be any clearer, so I'll leave it at that.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

very christian to brag about how much money you (dont) make too lawl

So Christians cannot live human lives and "mention" things about themselves? Jesus died for our sins. He knew we are not perfect. I am far from perfect. Sorry I don't "act" Christian enough for you. Very Atheist to point it out...like you guys do on every forum...over and over and over. Get backed into a wall and pull out the ole' "not very Christian of you", card...lol.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

From Wikipedia and any good biology book:

In biology, a species is one of the basic units of biological classification and a taxonomic rank. A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring.

I'd like to see you try to breed a horse and a mule. Mules are the sterile offspring of a horse and a donkey, also called a hybrid. If it's sterile, it cannot pass its genes on. That is a dead end in evolution.

Domestic dogs are not a dead end. They can reproduce and make more dogs. They cannot, however, have fertile offspring with wolves, a wild animal that shares its roots with the dog, because wolves are a different species. Domestic dogs are a new species created by man as the result of evolution.

I don't think it could be explained in any way you'll ever understand and I can't be any clearer, so I'll leave it at that.

From wiki huh? Nice. My mistake I meant to say Donkey and not mule. In a way you proved my point. Let me explain. I am sure you won't understand, but here it goes.

There is no scientific evidence that a species can change the number of chromosomes within the DNA. The chromosome count within each species is fixed. This is the reason a male from one species cannot mate successfully with a female of another species. Man could not evolve from a monkey. Each species is locked into its chromosome count that cannot be changed. If an animal developed an extra chromosome or lost a chromosome because of some deformity, it could not successfully mate. The defect could not be passed along to the next generation. Evolving a new species is scientifically impossible. Evolutionists prove that getting a college education does not impart wisdom.

When your dog is going to have a litter, don't worry that she will have a litter of monkeys or cats. She will always have a litter of puppies. The fact that she will have puppies was determined when her chromosomes joined with her mate's chromosomes at conception. You see, a dog has only 22 chromosomes, whereas a monkey has 54 and cats have 38. Half of the total number of chromosomes are contained in the female reproductive cells and half are contained in the male, so the exact total number is brought together in the offspring.

Humans have 46 chromosomes. This chromosome count is a steady factor. This determines what is called the "fixity of species" because the chromosome count doesn't vary. People always give birth to people. Dogs always give birth to dogs, etc. The genes can produce variety within the species but cannot result in a different species. Genes allow for people to be short, tall, fat, thin, blond, brunette, etc., but they are still all human beings. The chromosomes make crossing of the species an un-crossable barrier. This certainly would hinder any evolution. Dogs cannot breed with cats. This fact stops evolution dead in its tracks.

Sometimes two species are close enough to crossbreed, but the offspring are usually sterile. This is the case when horses and donkeys crossbreed. A male donkey (jackass) and a female horse (mare) will produce a mule. Farmers often preferred mules as work animals prior to the development of the farm tractor. A hinny is the offspring of a female donkey (jenny) and a male horse (stallion). The hinny and mule usually cannot produce offspring. These animals show that evolution is not possible.

[Slathar]

So Christians cannot live human lives and "mention" things about themselves? Jesus died for our sins. He knew we are not perfect. I am far from perfect. Sorry I don't "act" Christian enough for you. Very Atheist to point it out...like you guys do on every forum...over and over and over. Get backed into a wall and pull out the ole' "not very Christian of you", card...lol.

get mad

[Slathar]

Dogs cannot breed with cats. This fact stops evolution dead in its tracks.



hes defeated evolution folks. lock it up. this is all the evidence we need

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

hes defeated evolution folks. lock it up. this is all the evidence we need

How about a thought out retort to that argument? All you can do is make light of the fact that I pwnd you. How about an argument against what I wrote? Can't do it? Thought so...lmao.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

get mad

Is that all you can say. Why not reply to any of the arguments against your point of view? You can't do it. So sorry...play again when you become a big boy...hehe.

[Slathar]

Is that all you can say. Why not reply to any of the arguments against your point of view? You can't do it. So sorry...play again when you become a big boy...hehe.

he mad

[john_savage1982]

Seriously yall all need to find a punching bag and go at it. Let off some steam bros. Who cares if somebody believes in God and shit. I only really care if they've got some decency.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

he mad

hehe. And here I thought you might actually know something about what you were trying to prove. lmao. Atheist...all dressed up and no where to go. ;)

[Slathar]

hehe. And here I thought you might actually know something about what you were trying to prove. lmao. Atheist...all dressed up and no where to go. ;)

prove that theres a magical being that made man

[Hauling]

From wiki huh? Nice. My mistake I meant to say Donkey and not mule. In a way you proved my point. Let me explain. I am sure you won't understand, but here it goes.

There is no scientific evidence that a species can change the number of chromosomes within the DNA. The chromosome count within each species is fixed. This is the reason a male from one species cannot mate successfully with a female of another species. Man could not evolve from a monkey. Each species is locked into its chromosome count that cannot be changed. If an animal developed an extra chromosome or lost a chromosome because of some deformity, it could not successfully mate. The defect could not be passed along to the next generation. Evolving a new species is scientifically impossible. Evolutionists prove that getting a college education does not impart wisdom.

When your dog is going to have a litter, don't worry that she will have a litter of monkeys or cats. She will always have a litter of puppies. The fact that she will have puppies was determined when her chromosomes joined with her mate's chromosomes at conception. You see, a dog has only 22 chromosomes, whereas a monkey has 54 and cats have 38. Half of the total number of chromosomes are contained in the female reproductive cells and half are contained in the male, so the exact total number is brought together in the offspring.

Humans have 46 chromosomes. This chromosome count is a steady factor. This determines what is called the "fixity of species" because the chromosome count doesn't vary. People always give birth to people. Dogs always give birth to dogs, etc. The genes can produce variety within the species but cannot result in a different species. Genes allow for people to be short, tall, fat, thin, blond, brunette, etc., but they are still all human beings. The chromosomes make crossing of the species an un-crossable barrier. This certainly would hinder any evolution. Dogs cannot breed with cats. This fact stops evolution dead in its tracks.

Sometimes two species are close enough to crossbreed, but the offspring are usually sterile. This is the case when horses and donkeys crossbreed. A male donkey (jackass) and a female horse (mare) will produce a mule. Farmers often preferred mules as work animals prior to the development of the farm tractor. A hinny is the offspring of a female donkey (jenny) and a male horse (stallion). The hinny and mule usually cannot produce offspring. These animals show that evolution is not possible.

I'm not a geneticist, so I don't have an original argument of my own for rebuttal. However a quick google search has brought me to many explanations of how chromosomes numbers may not be the road block to evolution that you propose. I'm happy that you pointed this out to me, however, and I'm going to enjoy studying the matter further.

See, this is how science works, a question like "how can animals evolve into different species if they have different chromosome numbers?" leads to investigation into the matter and new discoveries. Religion is content to say "god made it that way" and leave it at that. By raising questions like these you are becoming a more scientific thinker. The next step is to come up with possible ideas that could answer the question and systematically test them. But I realize that is not your intent. Your intent is to raise these questions to trip someone up in their arguments rather than actually find something out.

[Hauling]

This is a fairly interesting read if you are interested in the subject:

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2001-05/989331026.Ev.r.html

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

I'm not a geneticist, so I don't have an original argument of my own for rebuttal. However a quick google search has brought me to many explanations of how chromosomes numbers may not be the road block to evolution that you propose. I'm happy that you pointed this out to me, however, and I'm going to enjoy studying the matter further.

See, this is how science works, a question like "how can animals evolve into different species if they have different chromosome numbers?" leads to investigation into the matter and new discoveries. Religion is content to say "god made it that way" and leave it at that. By raising questions like these you are becoming a more scientific thinker. The next step is to come up with possible ideas that could answer the question and systematically test them. But I realize that is not your intent. Your intent is to raise these questions to trip someone up in their arguments rather than actually find something out.

My intent was to get a rebuttal to my argument against. It is not my fault you cannot offer that. No need to say that I did not want to find something out. But let me ask you this. Why is it so implausible to just leave it at "not possible"? You are asking me to help come up with answers to support a theory that is wrong. How can, and why would I do that?

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

prove that theres a magical being that made man

Prove that you have dreams at night?

[Hauling]

My intent was to get a rebuttal to my argument against. It is not my fault you cannot offer that. No need to say that I did not want to find something out. But let me ask you this. Why is it so implausible to just leave it at "not possible"? You are asking me to help come up with answers to support a theory that is wrong. How can, and why would I do that?

Just because I have no answer at the moment, does not mean there is no answer and that I won't actively try and find it. And you were the one who raised the questions, so I assumed you wanted answers. My bad.

[Slathar]

Prove that you have dreams at night?

no

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

in honor of page 69 of the gayest thread eva -
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT_f_ZgEwKmU-2Sm8UOlg8mRYKlkzp1dOPro21CZ8mEesUv37Sz

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://thedailykirk.blogs.com/.a/6a00d83441de5253ef0120a4c69cfe970b-800wi&imgrefurl=http://www.culturesandwich.com/2009/08/the-cruise-conundru.html&usg=__ije0oSCQo7PSlkzQ1Vkl-b9aHQc=&h=400&w=400&sz=25&hl=en&start=17&sig2=xSCLqk2H5NzmTirPQZ1cwA&zoom=1&tbnid=QzBg-kepdKkRyM:&tbnh=129&tbnw=124&ei=_J1ITZvWOoKKlwfR7pC4BA&prev=/images%3Fq%3D69%2Bgay%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client% 3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D574%26tbs%3Disch: 10%2C342&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=214&oei=y51ITduTB8H88Ab9zPmxBg&esq=5&page=2&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:17&tx=76&ty=84&biw=1024&bih=574

and adam in the garden of gay eden...
http://timesonline.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451586c69e20115705d10cc970c-320pi

[Alawen Everywhere]

My thoughts on Atheism:

I would rather live my entire life believing in God only to find out when I die that there is no Heaven/Hell than live my life denying God only to find out when I die that God is real and consequently spending Eternity in the Burning Depths of Hell. :(

Atleast believe in something, man. Anything.. :/

If there really is an afterlife, you don't want to be one of those lost souls just floating about in limbo for eternity. Come join the party. Those Islamic guys are gonna be chillin with 69 virgins, I know you love that. Or maybe those Christians will invite you over to the Golden Streets of Heaven? Shit man, you could even party in Hell if you're in to that kind of stuff. Maybe, the Buddhists will hook you up with some Nirvana. I mean, group up with the Agnostics and discuss your own ideas if you want. They'll be around I'm sure, atleast some of them.:cool:

Do you really care that much about your tiny significance of a mortal, humanly life to blindly denounce God(s)? Why are you mad? Forgive your debtors my friend. Coexistence is possible.

You're human flesh has an expiration date, no matter what you believe in. We all die. You're belief in nothing will lead you, that is for sure. It will lead you to die alone. You're soul will drift from your dead body alone, into nothing, forever.:eek:

Have faith, in something.
Treat your Soul to a Divine existence, bro.
:cool:

[Unedited - I don't give a fuck]:rolleyes:

Wow, that would be really clever if Blaise Pascal hadn't come up with the idea of gaming the heaven system 400 years ago. What you're proposing is called Pascal's Wager. Unfortunately, it reflects terrible logic and indulges in the fallacy of argument from inconsistent revelations. This was first pointed out by no less a man than Voltaire himself!

One of the problems with this bet (for that's what this is--a gamble on infinity) is that there have been many gods and many religions throughout human history. Who is to say that the Christian God is the best bet? Ever heard that "there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his prophet?" What if the Greeks had it right? Or the Babylonians? Or the Celts?

Richard Dawkins proposes that if God exists, he may be more inclined to reward honest attempts at reason over blind faith. Further, he suggests an anti-Pascal wager in which it is likely that one would lead a superior life by not squandering one's time worshiping, sacrificing for, fighting for and possibly even dying for an arbitrarily chosen deity.

On the other hand, it's good that you're at least trying to think!

[Alawen Everywhere]

Hehe. Nice try. Just because you are scared to believe that there are people out there that make more than you does not mean that I don't. I mentioned money...you are the one that keeps dwelling on it and asking me about it. Poor little guy. Next.

Hey, I'm really broke. If I accept Jesus as my personal savior, would you be inclined to help me out so I can get a fresh start in life?

[Alawen Everywhere]

From wiki huh? Nice. My mistake I meant to say Donkey and not mule. In a way you proved my point. Let me explain. I am sure you won't understand, but here it goes.

There is no scientific evidence that a species can change the number of chromosomes within the DNA. The chromosome count within each species is fixed. This is the reason a male from one species cannot mate successfully with a female of another species. Man could not evolve from a monkey. Each species is locked into its chromosome count that cannot be changed. If an animal developed an extra chromosome or lost a chromosome because of some deformity, it could not successfully mate. The defect could not be passed along to the next generation. Evolving a new species is scientifically impossible. Evolutionists prove that getting a college education does not impart wisdom.

When your dog is going to have a litter, don't worry that she will have a litter of monkeys or cats. She will always have a litter of puppies. The fact that she will have puppies was determined when her chromosomes joined with her mate's chromosomes at conception. You see, a dog has only 22 chromosomes, whereas a monkey has 54 and cats have 38. Half of the total number of chromosomes are contained in the female reproductive cells and half are contained in the male, so the exact total number is brought together in the offspring.

Humans have 46 chromosomes. This chromosome count is a steady factor. This determines what is called the "fixity of species" because the chromosome count doesn't vary. People always give birth to people. Dogs always give birth to dogs, etc. The genes can produce variety within the species but cannot result in a different species. Genes allow for people to be short, tall, fat, thin, blond, brunette, etc., but they are still all human beings. The chromosomes make crossing of the species an un-crossable barrier. This certainly would hinder any evolution. Dogs cannot breed with cats. This fact stops evolution dead in its tracks.

Sometimes two species are close enough to crossbreed, but the offspring are usually sterile. This is the case when horses and donkeys crossbreed. A male donkey (jackass) and a female horse (mare) will produce a mule. Farmers often preferred mules as work animals prior to the development of the farm tractor. A hinny is the offspring of a female donkey (jenny) and a male horse (stallion). The hinny and mule usually cannot produce offspring. These animals show that evolution is not possible.

I'd like to thank you for this question. No, seriously. I had no idea what the answer was, and this is actually one of my fairly serious hobbies, so I started digging.

The answer to your questions is that chromosomes are not completely fixed. There are several ways for a particular gamete to change chromosome count. It's fairly technical but it basically boils down to that sometimes the two parts of a gamete don't split successfully (non-disjunction) and sometimes two chromosomes that are not part of a pair get stuck together (translocation).

The great apes all have 24 chromosome pairs. We, of course, have 23. There is no way to know for sure whether the great apes added a chromosome or humans dropped one, but the general thinking is that if the majority of species within a group (we group with great apes at the family level, hominidae) have the same number of chromosomes but another varies by one, it is likely that species is the one that varied. Ergo, human DNA was probably subject to translocation which reduced our chromosome count from 24 to 23. It seems likely that there was some pattern highly susceptible to translocation in one of our predecessors.

Interestingly enough, humans are a very inbred species compared to the other great apes. A small population of chimpanzees will apparently reflect as great a genetic diversity as all of mankind. You have, interestingly enough, hit upon the answer to why there are no 80% human great apes--the mutation that led to homo sapiens could no longer breed successfully with other closely related species.

It may go without saying, but gene mutations of this sort are fatal and almost always sterile. However, it's not extremely rare. In the last 17,000 years or so since humans began domesticating animals, we have created domesticated species whose chromosome counts vary from their feral ancestors.

I like it when I learn something new. I like it a lot.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Oh, I suppose I should have mentioned that the problem in your argument is line one in paragraph two. You are incorrect there. There is indeed scientific evidence as well as domesticated animals which proves that a species can be subject to a change in the number of chromosomes in its DNA.

[Lazortag]

Is there someone on this board who seriously doesn't believe in evolution? How can you believe in something that is against virtually every peer-reviewed scientific journal? Is it all just a conspiracy?

[chtulu]

I'd like to take this time to congratulate myself on this thread.

[RocketMoose]

I'd like to thank you for this question. No, seriously. I had no idea what the answer was, and this is actually one of my fairly serious hobbies, so I started digging.

The answer to your questions is that chromosomes are not completely fixed. There are several ways for a particular gamete to change chromosome count. It's fairly technical but it basically boils down to that sometimes the two parts of a gamete don't split successfully (non-disjunction) and sometimes two chromosomes that are not part of a pair get stuck together (translocation).

The great apes all have 24 chromosome pairs. We, of course, have 23. There is no way to know for sure whether the great apes added a chromosome or humans dropped one, but the general thinking is that if the majority of species within a group (we group with great apes at the family level, hominidae) have the same number of chromosomes but another varies by one, it is likely that species is the one that varied. Ergo, human DNA was probably subject to translocation which reduced our chromosome count from 24 to 23. It seems likely that there was some pattern highly susceptible to translocation in one of our predecessors.

Interestingly enough, humans are a very inbred species compared to the other great apes. A small population of chimpanzees will apparently reflect as great a genetic diversity as all of mankind. You have, interestingly enough, hit upon the answer to why there are no 80% human great apes--the mutation that led to homo sapiens could no longer breed successfully with other closely related species.

It may go without saying, but gene mutations of this sort are fatal and almost always sterile. However, it's not extremely rare. In the last 17,000 years or so since humans began domesticating animals, we have created domesticated species whose chromosome counts vary from their feral ancestors.

I like it when I learn something new. I like it a lot.

Interesting, just another supporting fact for creationism and the fact that God created Adam and Eve...

[Hauling]

Oh, I suppose I should have mentioned that the problem in your argument is line one in paragraph two. You are incorrect there. There is indeed scientific evidence as well as domesticated animals which proves that a species can be subject to a change in the number of chromosomes in its DNA.

Thank you Alawen.

"I don't want to live on this planet anymore." ~Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth after enduring an unfounded creationist argument.

[Hauling]

Interesting, just another supporting fact for creationism and the fact that God created Adam and Eve...
That's quite a jump. I don't know my logical fallacies too well, but I'm pretty sure that's one of them.

[Alawen Everywhere]

That's quite a jump. I don't know my logical fallacies too well, but I'm pretty sure that's one of them.

Let's look at the logical form, shall we!

Human are a very inbred form compared to the other great apes

therefore

God created Adam and Eve.

What do we have to connect that conclusion to the premise? Well, the premise does include humans and the conclusion includes Adam and Eve, two hypothetical humans. The premise discusses the genetic diversity within the human genome as compared to our closest related species. The conclusion then somehow arrives at a supernatural origin for our species.

Given that it is a struggle to come up with even the most highly speculative reasoning to connect the premise with the conclusion, this is the fallacy of non sequitur, i.e. "it does not follow." I suggest that RocketMoose's rhetoric is fallacious, but given his good manners I will decline to make derogatory statements about his intellect.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Let's look at the logical form, shall we!

Human are a very inbred form compared to the other great apes

therefore

God created Adam and Eve.

What do we have to connect that conclusion to the premise? Well, the premise does include humans and the conclusion includes Adam and Eve, two hypothetical humans. The premise discusses the genetic diversity within the human genome as compared to our closest related species. The conclusion then somehow arrives at a supernatural origin for our species.

Given that it is a struggle to come up with even the most highly speculative reasoning to connect the premise with the conclusion, this is the fallacy of non sequitur, i.e. "it does not follow." I suggest that RocketMoose's rhetoric is fallacious, but given his good manners I will decline to make derogatory statements about his intellect.

Wow, could I have misquoted myself any worse? That should be "Humans are a very inbred species when compared to the other great apes."

[Hauling]

Thanks again, it's been a long time since I've taken logic and I forgot most of the terms of things, but I think I can still pick out an illogical statement.

The thing Rocketmoose isn't doing is looking at all the facts. He's cherry picking just the one from your explanation to support his argument and anyone can do that to support any ridiculous claim. I can just as easily say the south pole is cold therefore it's made of ice cream.

[chtulu]

Thanks again, it's been a long time since I've taken logic and I forgot most of the terms of things, but I think I can still pick out an illogical statement.

The thing Rocketmoose isn't doing is looking at all the facts. He's cherry picking just the one from your explanation to support his argument and anyone can do that to support any ridiculous claim. I can just as easily say the south pole is cold therefore it's made of ice cream.

Cherry picking, ad hominems, and circular logic is what people of beliefs are all about.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Cherry picking, ad hominems, and circular logic is what people of beliefs are all about.

I think RocketMoose has been very deliberate to not engage in personal attacks, although some might be offended by the concern for your immortal soul angle fairly common to religious fundamentalists.

My biggest problem with the Judeo-Christian-Moslem cults is that I suspect eventually one of them is going to launch the bombs in order to help the apocalypse along.

[Hauling]

I'd like to take this time to congratulate myself on this thread.

Kudos, it's a fun thread.

[rachel]

I think i'm a little off the current subjects but,

They did just prove how the universe was created like 8 months ago ? They are still working on all the fine details. But the telescope images of the past of the universe are pretty convincing. I don't know how they are able to look at the past of the universe, but they did. That is a fact. It's on the Nasa website if you look hard.

Also , Who knows that we have a spirit / soul ? That is just assumptions with no evidence ever. Period. The human brain controls all of our thoughts , emotions etc. If you take a hardcore drug it will change the way you think about things, this just proves your soul doesn't really exist. It is all your brain that does the thinking. You think you have a soul , but it is really just your thought process.

When your brain is gone , You as a person don't exist on any level. Besides a dead body.

If there is a god....... Why does he let People burn little kids to death ???///????///???
Nice god there.... I want to believe that. Religious people say it's because life on earth is a learning experience for all and all have sins.... That's not an excuse for a god to let innocent things be tortured and killed in insanely painful ways. No excuse at all.

I don't want to believe in a god that wouldn't step in and help people.
I mean it is everyone they say, and it knows everything. Well than he gives a damm about people.

Jesus didn't put himself on a cross to pay for the sins of everyone.
The Romans Nailed him up , He didn't ask for it.....

W/e I have family that is religious , and I still love them , Even though religions are the biggest lies ever taught to the masses.


Carry on, But +1 for the No Higher power that created everything.

[rachel]

Plus : ) , like others have stated.

If there are 10 religions " there are more"

you would have to take 10 divided by 100percent to get the odds of your religion being correct.

Than you have to add in that they all could be wrong , and there also could be no creator / god.

[Pycoba_rng]

Being intoxicated and having read some of this thread I about laughed my ass off so hard. Trying to be intellegent when it comes to religon/ theory or anything of the conseus. Is a utter joke. Someones faith you can get a math formula for. You can have so many theories facts and proofs. Why is it that despite theory on opinion. Everyone knows its wrong to melest children? Why is it despite me being one years old. I have a funny feeling about being touched in certain areas? Could it be perhaps I am just not touched there often? Or maybe its just not a norm? Theres a thing we are all born with... A conscience. Whether you truly belive that is derived from how you are raised or some other bazar scientific theory is up to you. It just amazes me then how many are brainwashed in this world to have similar views like the ones I have stated. I bet if you took a poll across the world if raping 3 year olds is ok. You would have a higher poll number of No's then yes's. I know I know this is what we were taught to believe what was wrong and over the ages it became the norm.... But for you smart people when will that norm change and become a minority??? For me God exsist , his power shows in so much in the world. You call it science I call it god. Hes everywhere. When it comes down to it though you are the dictator of your own conscience... He is however listening and their to help you at times. I pray for people like you I really do. I think you would find a better enjoyment in life having you accepted God. Then again this is just me.

[Harrison]

I think i'm a little off the current subjects but,

They did just prove how the universe was created like 8 months ago ? They are still working on all the fine details. But the telescope images of the past of the universe are pretty convincing. I don't know how they are able to look at the past of the universe, but they did. That is a fact. It's on the Nasa website if you look hard.

LO FUCKING L

[Pycoba_rng]

What amazes me even more. Is all the scientific theories and opinions concerning god. How long did it take you to come up with a opinion that is the opposite of believing gods exisistance? You base your entire theory/opinion on others... When people start basing their faith from within themselves and rather then others logic, theory , opinion is a true sign of a believer. I'd be more interested to hear about some of the miracles you had in your life. Or some of the joyous things. Rather then your hate and dismay for everything you call imperfect. I want to see some personal expierences into the disbelief of god. Not some scientific garbage you have been spoon fed from a book or some teacher/preacher. Show me your lifes anguish not others... Show me your goodness and how it wasn't god. You can't..... You will never be able to prove whether god or god doesn't exsist. So calling people idiots just shows what kind of moron you really are. God is bigger then than anything you make it him to be. He is EVERYWHERE AND EVERYTHING. Your logic is thin. No where near a spec on what god truly is. And you expect me to believe in your theory? I'd be more ought to believe in Philosphers and genius's then some retard like you. But even they had their faults. Show me a perfect man or woman and Ill show you god.

[Pycoba_rng]

What amazes me even more. Is all the scientific theories and opinions concerning god. How long did it take you to come up with a opinion that is the opposite of believing gods exisistance? You base your entire theory/opinion on others... When people start basing their faith from within themselves and rather then others logic, theory , opinion is a true sign of a believer. I'd be more interested to hear about some of the miracles you had in your life. Or some of the joyous things. Rather then your hate and dismay for everything you call imperfect. I want to see some personal expierences into the disbelief of god. Not some scientific garbage you have been spoon fed from a book or some teacher/preacher. Show me your lifes anguish not others... Show me your goodness and how it wasn't god. You can't..... You will never be able to prove whether god or god doesn't exsist. So calling people idiots just shows what kind of moron you really are. God is bigger then than anything you make it him to be. He is EVERYWHERE AND EVERYTHING. Your logic is thin. No where near a spec on what god truly is. And you expect me to believe in your theory? I'd be more ought to believe in Philosphers and genius's then some retard like you. But even they had their faults. Show me a perfect man or woman and Ill show you god.

[mitic]

72 pages.....

who believes is to lazy to think.

[Pycoba_rng]

You could take all the thinkers in the world. Neither one of you could prove anything other then you wasted time thinking about it. You say its lazy not to think about it. Yet it just proves you wasted your time. You have yet come up with any factual statement showing me god isn't real. The only thing you have shown is you choose to disbelieve him. Which quite frankly doesn't suprise any of us who believe.

[Alkorin]

You have yet come up with any factual statement showing me god isn't real.

The very nature of this argument is that it is impossible to provide to a believer that God doesn't exist. 72 pages of this ought to be enough to prove that, I'd think.

[mitic]

You could take all the thinkers in the world. Neither one of you could prove anything other then you wasted time thinking about it. You say its lazy not to think about it. Yet it just proves you wasted your time. You have yet come up with any factual statement showing me god isn't real. The only thing you have shown is you choose to disbelieve him. Which quite frankly doesn't suprise any of us who believe.

so just give me 1 (in words: one) evidence that he actually exists.

(u would be a millionaire if u could, young believer :rolleyes:)

[Pycoba_rng]

I'm not here to prove to you he exsist other then myself saying I believe him. I don't think your a idiot or anything horrible name if you choose to believe him. I just consider you unfortunate really.

If god came down to the earth to show the people he was real. Do you think he could persuade man's so called thinking without imposing on your free will??? The fact is if god tried to prove to you he exsist to some people he would fail... Unless he interrupted their free will. They had a story in the bible about this well some bibles... The story of Jesus Christ. Besides the fact he died for the people sins as they say. It just comes to show even if god was walking amongst us. There will always be the "people that think", that choose not to believe him. I think god knows better to waste his time then to prove his exsistance. But Like i said. Show me a perfect man or woman, and I'll show you god. You can twist that phrase anyway you wish, but in the end you will never be able to show me a perfect man or woman. If you did , whats perfect to me and you wouldn't be to someone else. Therefore if that perfect man and woman was god. To you others it wouldn't be... See my point?

[mitic]

i do actually see someone who likes to keep a romantic sentiment of something inexistent to alleviate his own live. and i do respect that ;)

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

I like those who say that science disproves God and so forth. Like I said before, prove that you have dreams. Actually, hypothetically, prove that you had a dream about a bear eating a pickle...you can't. You can hook crap to your head and see that you brainwaves changed and that you sleep cycle was different at certain times during the night, but you cannot prove that it was a dream about a bear eating a pickle. Here is the thing though. You KNOW that you had that dream. It is something you know deep down inside, but you cannot prove it. Same with God. Some people just know. Others think they are smarter than everyone else by pointing out that you cannot prove to them he exist. Ask them to prove that they have dreams, or love someone, or that an unobserved tree in the middle of the woods made a sound when it feel. They cannot, but they will tell you that they just know for a fact that they did. Funny how they pick what they want to believe yet make fun of those who do the same.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

Funny joke to those who want to read:

One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come a long way and no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him. The scientist walked up to God and said, “God, we've decided that we no longer need you. We’re to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don’t you just go on and mind your own business?”

God listened very patiently and kindly to the man. After the scientist was done talking, God said, “Very well, how about this? Let’s say we have a man-making contest.” To which the scientist replied, “Okay, we can handle that!”

“But,” God added, “we’re going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam.”

The scientist said, “Sure, no problem” and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.

God looked at him and said, “No, no, no. You go get your own dirt.”

Moral: It isn’t enough just to be able to explain the origin of life, if you cannot explain the raw materials and fine-tuned parameters of chemistry and physics.

As Carl Sagan said in Cosmos, “To really make an apple pie from scratch, you must begin by inventing the universe.”

[mitic]

grandiloquence but still no real facts about the existence of god

[mitic]

we sh**, we fu**, we laugh, we whine, we socialice the same way as many other animal species do. we just have the advantage to have a more complex brain than any other animal on this planet.

all of us here are actually winners too since we have been able to win the race over other millions of sperms ;)

yes, iam a realist, and i love my life (without building up my life upon a fairytale of a whitebearded man somewhere over the rainbow)

[mitic]

we sh**, we fu**, we laugh, we whine, we socialize the same way as many other animal species do. we just have the advantage to have a more complex brain than any other animals on this planet.

all of us here are actually winners too since we have been able to win the race over other millions of sperms ;)

yes, iam a realist, and i love my life (without building up my life upon a fairytale of a whitebearded man somewhere over the rainbow)

[Harrison]

yes, iam a realist, and i love my life (without building up my life upon a fairytale of a whitebearded man somewhere over the rainbow)


I honestly and truly feel pity for anyone whose only view of religion is that poorly constructed and narrow.

Tongue in cheek or not, you're being partially serious. It's the same viewpoint a bunch of you hold. That all of religion is stupid because of a few inaccuracies in (or a bunch of them...) some of the religions out there.

So, all beliefs in any sort of higher power, past or present, is equally dumb to you. Such ignorance is pretty disgusting.

[to0p]

So being atheist is a bad thing?

Yes.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

we sh**, we fu**, we laugh, we whine, we socialice the same way as many other animal species do. we just have the advantage to have a more complex brain than any other animal on this planet.

all of us here are actually winners too since we have been able to win the race over other millions of sperms ;)

yes, iam a realist, and i love my life (without building up my life upon a fairytale of a whitebearded man somewhere over the rainbow)

Well I guess you are far superior in you thinking to the other 5,793,732,000 on this planet that believe in God. I feel blessed being in the presence of such an awe inspiring being such as you...someone with all the answers...lol. JK. I'll stick with God if you don't mind.

[quellren]

I don't know how they are able to look at the past of the universe, but they did.

In an extremely simplified example, it works something like this:

Let's say 2 cars sitting still in the middle of the road is the 'moment'. Those cars begins to drive away down a straight road in opposite directions, if I am still standing where they are parked, and measure the speed they are driving away, I can do the math to figure out how long ago they were at point 0. Even if I have to get a very powerful telescope, as long as I can see the cars, I can do the math to figure out how long ago they were in front of me.
Because this is space, and therefore no earth curvature to obstruct Line of Sight, and no gravity to deflect the path of travel, you just need to find the car.

There is still quite alot of matter in the universe that hasn't coalesced into a celestial body.

[quellren]

Yes.

Come out of your marijuana-induced haze long enough to lay that gem of wisdom on us, did you?
Strong work.

You believe atheism is 'bad', I believe that living my life as if an all-knowing, incorporeal, non human entity that somehow created every piece of matter out of nothing needs to loved and adored or I don't get my present after he lets my organs fail and my body ceases to function, is equally bad.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

Come out of your marijuana-induced haze long enough to lay that gem of wisdom on us, did you?
Strong work.

You believe atheism is 'bad', I believe that living my life as if an all-knowing, incorporeal, non human entity that somehow created every piece of matter out of nothing needs to loved and adored or I don't get my present after he lets my organs fail and my body ceases to function, is equally bad.

Sad, with a side of fail-sauce...hahaha. No, you would rather live your life as though you are the all-knowing being that somehow has it right when the vast majority of the world (84%) has it wrong. You must think highly of yourself...lol.

Let me ask you this. Let us assume that there was a big bang (talk about having faith!). Where did all that matter come from? Did it just pop into being? It wasn't created at all? It just came into existence? (once again, talk about faith!)

[to0p]

Come out of your marijuana-induced haze long enough to lay that gem of wisdom on us, did you?
Strong work.

You believe atheism is 'bad', I believe that living my life as if an all-knowing, incorporeal, non human entity that somehow created every piece of matter out of nothing needs to loved and adored or I don't get my present after he lets my organs fail and my body ceases to function, is equally bad.

Way to get specific - who ever said anything about a non-human entity.

The Grand Architect cant be denied.

I'd say you can continue to live in a haze. :cool:

[Japan]

Sad, with a side of fail-sauce...hahaha. No, you would rather live your life as though you are the all-knowing being that somehow has it right when the vast majority of the world (84%) has it wrong. You must think highly of yourself...lol.

Let me ask you this. Let us assume that there was a big bang (talk about having faith!). Where did all that matter come from? Did it just pop into being? It wasn't created at all? It just came into existence? (once again, talk about faith!)

argumentum ad populum

god in the gaps

even trying to troll bro? this shit is boring

[Hauling]

You could take all the thinkers in the world. Neither one of you could prove anything other then you wasted time thinking about it. You say its lazy not to think about it. Yet it just proves you wasted your time. You have yet come up with any factual statement showing me god isn't real. The only thing you have shown is you choose to disbelieve him. Which quite frankly doesn't suprise any of us who believe.


Once again, the burden of proof has been shifted to the wrong people. You have yet to come up with any factual statement showing me god is real. It's a nice, neat idea, that there's an all powerful creator that controls everything and I'm all on board for it, but you can't substantiate your claim that there's a god any more than a gypsy fortune teller can substantiate the claim that they can see the future. I am not going to take it on your faith that he exists. Sorry, but I'm a little more hard-nosed than that.

[guineapig]

This is not evolution...this is mixed breeding...same as why humans are taller, fatter, and hit puberty at younger ages now than ever before...we have introduced artificial stimulants.

You seemed to ignore this:

Now try that with single celled organisms, lots of them... and make sure they are spread out through all the water on earth so different colonies of these organisms are living in different climates/ecosystems. You can see where I am getting at with this.

Life on a planet doesn't start with fury four legged animals.


Like Rocket said earlier...that is mixed breeding not evolution. Nice try genius...lmao. Try breeding a cat and dog. What do you get then? Nothing. Because it cannot be done...lol.

um... and you apparently missed that part too. :p

[guineapig]

If you believe in a deity, any deity at all. Why would you think that this deity would create all these rules about the nature of the universe and then just for the hell of it break the rule in order to magic humans into existence? It's never made sense to me why certain believers can't grasp the concept of evolution being part of god's plan.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

argumentum ad populum

god in the gaps

even trying to troll bro? this shit is boring

Did I say that because most people believe, it is true? Nope. I know it is true based on my own belief. How about tackling the second part of that post? And I am impressed with your Latin. It does make you sound smarter too...lol. Although you ruined it by writing "bro" and "shit".

[Hauling]

I like those who say that science disproves God and so forth. Like I said before, prove that you have dreams. Actually, hypothetically, prove that you had a dream about a bear eating a pickle...you can't. You can hook crap to your head and see that you brainwaves changed and that you sleep cycle was different at certain times during the night, but you cannot prove that it was a dream about a bear eating a pickle. Here is the thing though. You KNOW that you had that dream. It is something you know deep down inside, but you cannot prove it. Same with God. Some people just know. Others think they are smarter than everyone else by pointing out that you cannot prove to them he exist. Ask them to prove that they have dreams, or love someone, or that an unobserved tree in the middle of the woods made a sound when it feel. They cannot, but they will tell you that they just know for a fact that they did. Funny how they pick what they want to believe yet make fun of those who do the same.

There's far more evidence that dreams exist than god exists. I can't prove to you what I dreamt about last night, at least not with current technology, but if you really want to go through the trouble, it can be proven that I do dream.

Can I show you the exact images that were in my head? Not yet, but I can hook myself up to a machine, record my brainwaves while I sleep, and if I report having a dream, I can study the brainwaves and compare them to scans of times when I slept and did not report a dream. I can do this over and over again in a repeatable, consistent manner, not only for myself but for anyone, and there are people who do this, for large cross-sections of the population and they get consistent results, and they publish them to be reviewed, confirmed or even contested by their peers.

Now, as you've asked, can I prove that I had a dream about a bear eating a pickle? No. I can certainly lie about it, but the door swings both ways on that one. You are free to be as skeptical about my pickle eating bear as you want. Fact is, though, I don't have much incentive to lie about my dreams. Is there anything to be gained from it? Is there anything to be gained by lying about god? Certainly there is, especially back in the days when the idea of a single god came about. Money and power, not to mention all the stuff that gets attached to it when you start to believe your own lies, like an eternal life of happiness with all your friends and family and everyone in history you'd like to hob-nob with and your first dog Tippy.

Further, by this analogy, do I need to prove to you that I also took a piss this morning? Do I also need to prove to you that I am even capable of taking a piss? Or do you think there's enough existing evidence out there that you can infer from that I do indeed piss?

[quellren]

Let me ask you this. Let us assume that there was a big bang (talk about having faith!). Where did all that matter come from? Did it just pop into being? It wasn't created at all? It just came into existence? (once again, talk about faith!)

Here's the first thing you need to understand about matter. It's really just energy. Specifically, discreet particles called 'photons'.Since you can neither create nor destroy energy, photons have always been. It is believed that all energy in the universe was concentrated in an unimaginably tiny, unimaginably dense, yet stable, 'ball' of energy at one time. *Something* disrupted that stasis and photons began to spatially separate and decay into other arrangements that had much less electrical attraction and thus made larger, more stable particles, like quarks, protons and so on. This happened at a fantastically rapid rate, along the lines of 1.0 x 10^-15 (.000000000000001) seconds. What happened in that fraction of a second is still a mystery, as the mathematical equations don't work the way they do for all time beyond that first bit.
One thing is for certain, all matter (energy) has always existed, it's just been arranged differently in the past.

[Hauling]

Well I guess you are far superior in you thinking to the other 5,793,732,000 on this planet that believe in God. I feel blessed being in the presence of such an awe inspiring being such as you...someone with all the answers...lol. JK. I'll stick with God if you don't mind.

5,793,732,000 people believe in god, therefore god exists. This is a fallacy of false cause, I believe.

cum hoc ergo propter hoc: believing that correlation implies a causal relation.

[Harrison]

Here's the first thing you need to understand about matter. It's really just energy. Specifically, discreet particles called 'photons'.Since you can neither create nor destroy energy, photons have always been. It is believed that all energy in the universe was concentrated in an unimaginably tiny, unimaginably dense, yet stable, 'ball' of energy at one time. *Something* disrupted that stasis and photons began to spatially separate and decay into other arrangements that had much less electrical attraction and thus made larger, more stable particles, like quarks, protons and so on. This happened at a fantastically rapid rate, along the lines of 1.0 x 10^-15 (.000000000000001) seconds. What happened in that fraction of a second is still a mystery, as the mathematical equations don't work the way they do for all time beyond that first bit.
One thing is for certain, all matter (energy) has always existed, it's just been arranged differently in the past.

How in the flying fuck do you know that? lol

Not even what, decade ago, we didn't even know where more than half of the universe's mass was, nevermind WHAT it was? You're going to make a claim as strong as that based on what precious little we "know" now?

[quellren]

How in the flying fuck do you know that? lol

Not even what, decade ago, we didn't even know where more than half of the universe's mass was, nevermind WHAT it was? You're going to make a claim as strong as that based on what precious little we "know" now?

It's the first Law of Thermodynamics. You don't have to know where it is, or what it weighs to understand that you cannot create or destroy energy.

[Henini]

Dogs cannot breed with cats. This fact stops evolution dead in its tracks.



LOLLLL

why is it that it's always religious freaks that come out with this kind of funnies!!

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

There's far more evidence that dreams exist than god exists. I can't prove to you what I dreamt about last night, at least not with current technology, but if you really want to go through the trouble, it can be proven that I do dream.

Can I show you the exact images that were in my head? Not yet, but I can hook myself up to a machine, record my brainwaves while I sleep, and if I report having a dream, I can study the brainwaves and compare them to scans of times when I slept and did not report a dream. I can do this over and over again in a repeatable, consistent manner, not only for myself but for anyone, and there are people who do this, for large cross-sections of the population and they get consistent results, and they publish them to be reviewed, confirmed or even contested by their peers.

Now, as you've asked, can I prove that I had a dream about a bear eating a pickle? No. I can certainly lie about it, but the door swings both ways on that one. You are free to be as skeptical about my pickle eating bear as you want. Fact is, though, I don't have much incentive to lie about my dreams. Is there anything to be gained from it? Is there anything to be gained by lying about god? Certainly there is, especially back in the days when the idea of a single god came about. Money and power, not to mention all the stuff that gets attached to it when you start to believe your own lies, like an eternal life of happiness with all your friends and family and everyone in history you'd like to hob-nob with and your first dog Tippy.

Further, by this analogy, do I need to prove to you that I also took a piss this morning? Do I also need to prove to you that I am even capable of taking a piss? Or do you think there's enough existing evidence out there that you can infer from that I do indeed piss?

I did not ask if you can prove that you DO dream. I asked if you can prove what the dream was about...and you cannot. Does that mean you did not have that dream? No. Read the post before you reply. And I am not sure what your fascination with peeing is, but No I do not need proof that you "piss". You are trying to twist my concept to make your epeen appear to be bigger, when in reality you just come across as incompetent in your argument against my original question.

[Harrison]

It's the first Law of Thermodynamics. You don't have to know where it is, or what it weighs to understand that you cannot create or destroy energy.

I know you can't create or destroy energy. (given current knowledge)

That wasn't my point. How do we "know" that anything has "always been"? The very nature of that is beyond our understanding.

[Kassel]

If you believe something can not be created or destroyed its pretty logical that it has always been.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

5,793,732,000 people believe in god, therefore god exists. This is a fallacy of false cause, I believe.

cum hoc ergo propter hoc: believing that correlation implies a causal relation.

Already been addressed...read earlier post.

[Hauling]

I did not ask if you can prove that you DO dream. I asked if you can prove what the dream was about...and you cannot. Does that mean you did not have that dream? No. Read the post before you reply. And I am not sure what your fascination with peeing is, but No I do not need proof that you "piss". You are trying to twist my concept to make your epeen appear to be bigger, when in reality you just come across as incompetent in your argument against my original question.

I can say the same, you missed my paragraph 3 where I explained the difference between your argument for a god and my argument for what I dreamt about last night.

You believe in god, you can't prove it any more than I can prove what I dreamt about last night. That is a fact. But I am not making the claim that I dreamt about a bear eating a pickle last night. Had I made that claim you are free to be as skeptical about it as you like, just as I said, much like what I'm doing with your claim about god. I can't say this for certain, but I am pretty sure you yourself have experienced dreams first hand, much the same way I have experienced dreams first hand. So, if our roles were reversed and you were the one with the pickle eating bear dream claim, I have enough first hand experience with dreams that I wouldn't even feel the need to question it. I can't say that about your claims for a god.

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

It's the first Law of Thermodynamics. You don't have to know where it is, or what it weighs to understand that you cannot create or destroy energy.

The law of conservation of energy (the First Law of Thermodynamics) is an empirical law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time (is said to be conserved over time). A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created or destroyed: it can only be transformed from one state to another. The only thing that can happen to energy in a closed system is that it can change form: for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy.

Prove that the Universe is a closed system. You cannot. No one can. Many have theories, but no proof, and most believe that is an Open System. So Mr. science guy, the law of conservation of energy cannot apply to the Universe which means matter CAN be created and destroyed with the Universe. I ask again...how did that matter come to being. Answer - GOD!

[Boggwin Bramblefoot]

I can say the same, you missed my paragraph 3 where I explained the difference between your argument for a god and my argument for what I dreamt about last night.

You believe in god, you can't prove it any more than I can prove what I dreamt about last night. That is a fact. But I am not making the claim that I dreamt about a bear eating a pickle last night. Had I made that claim you are free to be as skeptical about it as you like, just as I said, much like what I'm doing with your claim about god. I can't say this for certain, but I am pretty sure you yourself have experienced dreams first hand, much the same way I have experienced dreams first hand. So, if our roles were reversed and you were the one with the pickle eating bear dream claim, I have enough first hand experience with dreams that I wouldn't even feel the need to question it. I can't say that about your claims for a god.

You miss the point of the argument. I am saying that just because something cannot be proven by science...which has been wrong so many times in the past...does not mean it does not exist. (fact) Can we agree on that? So therefore you must admit that there is a possibility that God does exist. If you do not, then you are not following your own logic. I choose to believe that God does exist.

[quellren]

If you believe something can not be created or destroyed its pretty logical that it has always been.

It's pointless, man. Any attempt to impart even basic scientific principle is met with the internet equivalent of " *sticks fingers in ears* Nuh-uh! Nuh-uh! Lalalalala I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Lalalala" and "You weren't there, you can't know that it's always been like that" despite overwhelming evidence that points it to be the case.

[Hauling]

The law of conservation of energy (the First Law of Thermodynamics) is an empirical law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time (is said to be conserved over time). A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created or destroyed: it can only be transformed from one state to another. The only thing that can happen to energy in a closed system is that it can change form: for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy.

Prove that the Universe is a closed system. You cannot. No one can. Many have theories, but no proof, and most believe that is an Open System. So Mr. science guy, the law of conservation of energy cannot apply to the Universe which means matter CAN be created and destroyed with the Universe. I ask again...how did that matter come to being. Answer - GOD!

I think you missed a few steps there. It's always a leap to god for you religious folks without ever digging deeper. Our understanding of the universe and physics is incomplete. Does that mean we won't learn more? Yes, if we always jump to conclusions like you just did.

[Henini]

Life on a planet doesn't start with fury four legged animals.






yes it does, god made it that way, you ignorant fool!