If you believe in god, you're an idiot...

[Zereh]

I've also read the Bible. I'm less impressed with that. It's so butchered from hundreds of years of willful manipulation that it's pretty much gibberish.

Indeed. Compare bibles that were published 50 years ago to those available today. Then go back 50 more ... it's pretty amazing how things have changed between the now and thens. It's also pretty blatantly obvious how things are worded (sometimes subtly other times not so much) to support whatever the current Christian agenda is at the time of the re-write.

It's a story book, albeit one with some great parables. It's also used as a sorry excuse to persecute people. I can't take it seriously when it's used for the latter. There is enough common ground on the good points of all religions that it comes across as very myopic to me when they continue to insist that one of them is absolute truth over another.

[boboo]

Theres degrees of hate

[boboo]

its a hate thats not built upon ignorance

[iamjack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[Seeatee]

These books and religions clearly state you must follow their rules and philosophies or you will burn in eternal damnation.

this is untrue, at least as far as I am concerned, I am a Lutheran, what we are taught is that we will get into heaven as long as we A. believe in god B. believe in jesus C. ask for forgiveness for our sins D. forgive the people who have done wrong against us.

it sounds to me like you have a very basic and sensationalized grasp on exactly what religion is and how it works

also, it should be stated that religion and believing in god are TOTALLY different things, I know lots of people who dont believe in religion but do believe in god, its kind of like saying because you dont like McDonalds you must not like hamburgers period - religion and churches are man made institutions and are as susceptible to greed and corruption as any business or organization.

[boboo]

this is untrue, at least as far as I am concerned, I am a Lutheran, what we are taught is that we will get into heaven as long as we A. believe in god B. believe in jesus C. ask for forgiveness for our sins D. forgive the people who have done wrong against us.

it sounds to me like you have a very basic and sensationalized grasp on exactly what religion is and how it works

also, it should be stated that religion and believing in god are TOTALLY different things, I know lots of people who dont believe in religion but do believe in god, its kind of like saying because you dont like McDonalds you must not like hamburgers period - religion and churches are man made institutions and are as susceptible to greed and corruption as any business or organization.

So A. B. C. D. arent rules?

[Seeatee]

dont get me wrong they are definitely rules but they are very few in number and rather simplistic compared to most other organized religions ,

the way chutulu made it sound, if you dont walk around being an absolutely priestly saint you are going to burn in hell, and as far as my religion goes its just not true, in fact lutheranism is very laid back and relaxed, pretty much as long as you believe in god and ask for forgiveness your golden, that sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me.

[Dravingar]

Only reason to hate religion is they make liquor stores open later on sundays than any other day.

[fastboy21]

Religion only cheapens our existence here. It literally devalues our lives by saying there is something greater after this. I find that tragic and believe that we should love this life more than anything because it's the only one we get.

I laughed so hard when I read this. You say this then you spend your life playing a video game which, by the way, you are not only horrible at, but you have managed to convince multiple guilds of your incompetence in a few weeks time.

Threads like these are such a waste of time.

The bottom line on the matter is that there is an anthropologically universal truth amongst all human beings to ask questions about our reality which are not answerable by the empirical data around us in. No matter what you call it the basic pull for humans to ask questions---and seek answers---is as much a part of the human experience as having a thumb or a kidney. Why some people are afraid/angry/upset/etc. that some of us actively embrace this part of our humanity in our day to day lives confuses me.

I understand the objection that some ppl have is towards "organized religions" and not towards people of faith in particular, but as I read this thread I see many ppl who just seem out right ANGRY that other ppl live faith-based lives. I'm not sure what the psycho-religious term is to describe that type of anger, but it is analogous to the type of personality that doesn't like to see anyone around him be happy because he harbors some deep bitter resentment.

What is it to you if I talk to my (as you call it) "imaginary friend" every day before eating a meal or doing something important? Sounds like pure bitterness on your part that other people have found a way to live good, bountiful, and satisfying lives while you struggle to get out of your own problems.

[chtulu]

I laughed so hard when I read this. You say this then you spend your life playing a video game which, by the way, you are not only horrible at, but you have managed to convince multiple guilds of your incompetence in a few weeks time.

Threads like these are such a waste of time.

The bottom line on the matter is that there is an anthropologically universal truth amongst all human beings to ask questions about our reality which are not answerable by the empirical data around us in. No matter what you call it the basic pull for humans to ask questions---and seek answers---is as much a part of the human experience as having a thumb or a kidney. Why some people are afraid/angry/upset/etc. that some of us actively embrace this part of our humanity in our day to day lives confuses me.

I understand the objection that some ppl have is towards "organized religions" and not towards people of faith in particular, but as I read this thread I see many ppl who just seem out right ANGRY that other ppl live faith-based lives. I'm not sure what the psycho-religious term is to describe that type of anger, but it is analogous to the type of personality that doesn't like to see anyone around him be happy because he harbors some deep bitter resentment.

What is it to you if I talk to my (as you call it) "imaginary friend" every day before eating a meal or doing something important? Sounds like pure bitterness on your part that other people have found a way to live good, bountiful, and satisfying lives while you struggle to get out of your own problems.

ad hominems are all i see in this post.

How arrogant to say that because you believe in some flying man beard that you some how live a more wholesome, fulfilling life than I do.

[fastboy21]

ad hominems are all i see in this post.

How arrogant to say that because you believe in some flying man beard that you some how live a more wholesome, fulfilling life than I do.

^^^^
And there is the bitterness I was speaking of in my post.

Let me ask you this, if you aren't bitter, why do you go out of your way to disrespect people of faith by mocking them (imaginary friends, flying man beard, etc.)?

I never said all people of faith were living "more satisfied" lives than all atheists. What I did say is that some people become bitter (like yourself) because others are living faith-based lives.

Then again, Chtulu, I have seen and played with you in game...and I really don't expect an intelligent response from you. You're an idiot.

[chtulu]

^^^^
And there is the bitterness I was speaking of in my post.

Let me ask you this, if you aren't bitter, why do you go out of your way to disrespect people of faith by mocking them (imaginary friends, flying man beard, etc.)?

I never said all people of faith were living "more satisfied" lives than all atheists. What I did say is that some people become bitter (like yourself) because others are living faith-based lives.

Then again, Chtulu, I have seen and played with you in game...and I really don't expect an intelligent response from you. You're an idiot.


The man who only can insult and use fallacious arguments wants ME to give him an intelligent response?

Pot, meet kettle.

[fastboy21]

Kicked from guild for being an absolute idiot, meet Chtulu.

[chtulu]

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-- H. L. Mencken

[chtulu]

Kicked from guild for being an absolute idiot, meet Chtulu.


Other than your emotions; do you have any basis for this accusation? Also, why don't you use your main's name to post on these forums?

[boboo]

I laughed so hard when I read this. You say this then you spend your life playing a video game which, by the way, you are not only horrible at, but you have managed to convince multiple guilds of your incompetence in a few weeks time.

Threads like these are such a waste of time.

The bottom line on the matter is that there is an anthropologically universal truth amongst all human beings to ask questions about our reality which are not answerable by the empirical data around us in. No matter what you call it the basic pull for humans to ask questions---and seek answers---is as much a part of the human experience as having a thumb or a kidney. Why some people are afraid/angry/upset/etc. that some of us actively embrace this part of our humanity in our day to day lives confuses me.

I understand the objection that some ppl have is towards "organized religions" and not towards people of faith in particular, but as I read this thread I see many ppl who just seem out right ANGRY that other ppl live faith-based lives. I'm not sure what the psycho-religious term is to describe that type of anger, but it is analogous to the type of personality that doesn't like to see anyone around him be happy because he harbors some deep bitter resentment.

What is it to you if I talk to my (as you call it) "imaginary friend" every day before eating a meal or doing something important? Sounds like pure bitterness on your part that other people have found a way to live good, bountiful, and satisfying lives while you struggle to get out of your own problems.

And yet he takes the time to write 3 paragraphs :rolleyes:

[chtulu]

And yet he takes the time to write 3 paragraphs :rolleyes:

Well, obviously he made the thread worth while, putting his 2 cents in.

[boboo]

Well, obviously he made the thread worth while, putting his 2 cents in.

More like 2 dollars, amirite?

[chtulu]

More like 2 dollars, amirite?

He's a religious defender. No real arguments, just insults and logical fallacies, and then they usually like to end with announcing how happy they are in their faith, as if their faith is the only way to happiness in life.

[fastboy21]

Other than your emotions; do you have any basis for this accusation? Also, why don't you use your main's name to post on these forums?

you were kicked from DA...actually, i don't think you even got tagged in DA. you were kicked from SR, and then starting sending tells to other apps and officers not understanding why. answer:idiot behavior.

i'm sure you will be kicked from many many more guilds as time goes on. nobody will put up with your nonsense (like this thread) in guild or group chat.


bye now =)

[Alawen Everywhere]

You should really consider reading Aristotle if you're going to have these kinds of discussions. The more brainy you try to present yourself, the stupider you look.

You're like a guy who saw an episode of "This Old House" hitting himself in the dick with a hammer.

[chtulu]

You should really consider reading Aristotle if you're going to have these kinds of discussions. The more brainy you try to present yourself, the stupider you look.

You're like a guy who saw an episode of "This Old House" hitting himself in the dick with a hammer.

Yes, I'm the idiot. I'm the one using coarse language and belligerent insults to prove my case, right?

[purist]

What about the monks in Burma? Is religion a force for evil in fighting the oppression in Myanmar?

[chtulu]

What about the monks in Burma? Is religion a force for evil in fighting the oppression in Myanmar?

Buddhism is not a religion with a deity.

[Uberom]

DIE THREAD, DIE. NONE OF THIS MATTERS. MOAR DOTS, PLZ.

[Auvdar]

Good thing I'm watching Mystery Science Theatre 3000 right now. Were Mike Nelson and his robot pals are caught in a endless chase. Pursued by a woman, who's name is Pearl, just a evil gal who wants to the rule the world. She threw a few things in here purse, and in a rocket ship she hunts him all across the universe! Also God and whatnot. ba la la!

[Greyhands]

I was going to shit on your thread but I see no reason now as most of the 99 community has alrdy done that for me lol

[purist]

Buddhism is not a religion with a deity.

So? There are millions of other examples. What about Gandhi? He was a deeply religious figure. Was religion a force for evil in fighting the oppression in India?

[chtulu]

So? There are millions of other examples. What about Gandhi? He was a deeply religious figure. Was religion a force for evil in fighting the oppression in India?

I think you're confused on what theist religion is and is not.

[Auvdar]

I think everyone posting in this thread is confused.

[Fists]

10/10. This was by far one of the most amusing threads I have ever read. Please continue, no sarcasm too, this is absolutely amazing.

[Fists]

I also found it funny that when Harrison commented on Cthulu's usage of the -, he immediately stopped using it in following posts.

[mimixownzall]

I fear the majority of people who play this game are severely over estimated when it comes to basic understanding and critical thinking. Between Mr. Cowboy with this big of manly rifle and Hoggen, I can't really blame the world for looking down on North America.

Really, Chtulu? I believe that 90-plus percent of people who have grouped with you agree that you are a tool. To sit here and read you go on with your drivel is mind-numbing.

What does it matter if someone has religious beliefs? Now, you want to condemn specific religions or factions within a religion for what they believe in because it negatively effects those around them, fine. What does it matter that Fred across the street goes to church on Sundays and Wednesdays and lives a happy, moral life? Do you just feel compelled to thrust your views and "informed thinking" on people in hopes someone will disagree so you can call them stupid to feel better about yourself?

Douche

[Daldolma]

Haha, the world looks down on North America? Good one.

Who, pray tell, is looking down on us? I know you're not about to say Europe, because they'd be celebrating Hitler Day 365 times a year if it weren't for us.

[Humerox]

One of the better threads.

10/10

...The point was that we, as a species, have extremely insufficient information regarding the universe's origins in order to make any conclusive claims regarding whether or not a God was necessary or responsible...


29 pages and no one has brought up wave function law? amazing.


In the Iroquois creation myth, the world was created on the back of a giant turtle. I like that one.

which makes God as necessary as that fucking turtle.

However...there is the "just in case there is" principle. Come judgment, he'd be one angry motherfucker, and you'd be standing there saying:

"awwwww...fuck..."

[boboo]

Haha, the world looks down on North America? Good one.

Who, pray tell, is looking down on us? I know you're not about to say Europe, because they'd be celebrating Hitler Day 365 times a year if it weren't for us.

Your military spending is a massive black hole that will eventually suck everything in if you dont stop trying to invade a country every 5 years. Then the chinese will be lolrich cuz they are the ones banking your gigantor deficit.

Probably the only people who think america is too big to fail are americans themselves.

[john_savage1982]

Placebo effect. Just because they think they feel something doesn't mean anything. Also, you're quite presumption, throwing around the word soul. I believe people like that are delusional. But if course, if you get enough people who feel that way, it's a religion.

Not exactly the meaning of placebo effect but you highlight almost exactly what I am talking about. If a man has schizophrenia we tend to treat him as if his "delusions" aren't real and that the experience is related to a "problem" with a physical structure "the brain". If a person doesn't function in the same way as the majority then it's assumed there is something wrong that must be fixed. Further, any experiences related to definable problems must fall into the same category and is thus is also illegitimate.

What you're missing is religion isn't about the definable and the logical. You could create whatever explanation you want for why people shouldn't believe in things that don't appear to exist in our 5 senses but to do so would be to attack religion from an incompatible viewpoint. Religion is about the feeling of connecting with the outside. Outside the body and mind. For example - whether you recognize it or not, the type of faith involved in religion is no different then accepting that others have minds distinct from your own. How do you really know that outside your own mind that other humans possess the same sort of consciousness. Or, more basic, that the colors you see in your experience are the same colors that others see in their experience. It may be the same light wavelength but you don't know the experience of the other. This is exactly the heart of religion. Despite the uncertainty and perceived differences, people come together to profess believe in a common idea. This process connects people with the outside.


I still don't see why many of you have such faith in the ability for the state to create sound laws and why you have such faith in them to follow them. Why is murder illegal? Better yet, to what extent have you all studied the formation of the social contract? I have a feeling that many of you don't understand that your atheist moral system is actually grounded in very deep religious thought. Consider what your state (I use this in the abstract sense) has provided for you - education, language, culture, protection. I feel many of you take for granted the thousands of years of social development that led to the formation of states. If you spend enough time reading about the formation of modern states you might realize that religion is an integral part of the functioning of a state.


Lastly, atheism functions just like a religion. Instead of believing in the extra-worldly you believe in only the worldly. However, whether you want to admit it or not, you still take a leap of faith to accept that your senses are legitimate, that you aren't being somehow fooled by the natural world, and that science can somehow provide answers. What makes you believe your senses are real? Because they allow you to survive? Why live? What makes your existence as it is worthwhile?

Religion is about expanding your feelings to understand these sort of questions that aren't about figuring out how the physical world functions. This relates back to my original posts. There is a difference between understanding and feeling. They're different modes of thought. In my observations, atheist tend to overemphasize the importance of thought in comparison to feeling and in doing so entirely discount an entire aspect of being human.

[Daldolma]

It's got nothing to do with thinking we're too big to fail. Every nation falls at some point. It would be ignorant to believe America is the exception.

We are, however, in pole position. We're a minimum of 20 years ahead of the rest of the world in military might, and our nominal GDP is nearly 300% of the 2nd-richest country -- China.

It's a joke to talk about any other nation "looking down" upon America -- let alone the rest of the world.

[john_savage1982]

lol tags:

johnsavageeatsit
johnsavagesmellbutter
johnsavagewinsthread

lol

[john_savage1982]

It's got nothing to do with thinking we're too big to fail. Every nation falls at some point. It would be ignorant to believe America is the exception.

We are, however, in pole position. We're a minimum of 20 years ahead of the rest of the world in military might, and our nominal GDP is nearly 300% of the 2nd-richest country -- China.

It's a joke to talk about any other nation "looking down" upon America -- let alone the rest of the world.

Consider Rome. Rome started out as a small kingdom, expanded to a republic, became an empire, then collapsed. This took well over a thousand years, with the eastern empire lasting loner.

United States is what? 200 some years old?

[Harrison]

I also found it funny that when Harrison commented on Cthulu's usage of the -, he immediately stopped using it in following posts.

I used it every post after you fucking retard.

I even put it in quotations each time.

[Alawen Everywhere]

You should really consider reading Aristotle if you're going to have these kinds of discussions. The more brainy you try to present yourself, the stupider you look.

You're like a guy who saw an episode of "This Old House" hitting himself in the dick with a hammer.

You have latched onto one part of human communication (logic) and you're running around trying to wield it like an unstoppable hammer.

What you don't realize is that you completely lack the wisdom and reputation to effectively espouse your point of view. You have chosen to create a confrontational approach to this discussion and as a result, no one is on your side here. Not the Christians, not the faithful of other religions, not the atheists, not the agnostics.

You have also neglected to make any kind of emotional connection with your audience. Simply put, none of us are regarding you as a friend or a peer of any kind.

You come off as a kid who is pissed off that mom made him go to church. Now you want to tell everyone else what to do--basically the same thing that pissed you off.

You also apparently lack the foresight and life experience to realize that even if you spend the rest of your life having arguments like this one, it is highly improbable that you will affect the opinions of even a single person.

But feel free to keep yelling. Just don't expect to make any friends. As an alternative, you could try a little humility. You could try listening. You could try to understand.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Not exactly the meaning of placebo effect but you highlight almost exactly what I am talking about. If a man has schizophrenia we tend to treat him as if his "delusions" aren't real and that the experience is related to a "problem" with a physical structure "the brain". If a person doesn't function in the same way as the majority then it's assumed there is something wrong that must be fixed. Further, any experiences related to definable problems must fall into the same category and is thus is also illegitimate.

What you're missing is religion isn't about the definable and the logical. You could create whatever explanation you want for why people shouldn't believe in things that don't appear to exist in our 5 senses but to do so would be to attack religion from an incompatible viewpoint. Religion is about the feeling of connecting with the outside. Outside the body and mind. For example - whether you recognize it or not, the type of faith involved in religion is no different then accepting that others have minds distinct from your own. How do you really know that outside your own mind that other humans possess the same sort of consciousness. Or, more basic, that the colors you see in your experience are the same colors that others see in their experience. It may be the same light wavelength but you don't know the experience of the other. This is exactly the heart of religion. Despite the uncertainty and perceived differences, people come together to profess believe in a common idea. This process connects people with the outside.


I still don't see why many of you have such faith in the ability for the state to create sound laws and why you have such faith in them to follow them. Why is murder illegal? Better yet, to what extent have you all studied the formation of the social contract? I have a feeling that many of you don't understand that your atheist moral system is actually grounded in very deep religious thought. Consider what your state (I use this in the abstract sense) has provided for you - education, language, culture, protection. I feel many of you take for granted the thousands of years of social development that led to the formation of states. If you spend enough time reading about the formation of modern states you might realize that religion is an integral part of the functioning of a state.


Lastly, atheism functions just like a religion. Instead of believing in the extra-worldly you believe in only the worldly. However, whether you want to admit it or not, you still take a leap of faith to accept that your senses are legitimate, that you aren't being somehow fooled by the natural world, and that science can somehow provide answers. What makes you believe your senses are real? Because they allow you to survive? Why live? What makes your existence as it is worthwhile?

Religion is about expanding your feelings to understand these sort of questions that aren't about figuring out how the physical world functions. This relates back to my original posts. There is a difference between understanding and feeling. They're different modes of thought. In my observations, atheist tend to overemphasize the importance of thought in comparison to feeling and in doing so entirely discount an entire aspect of being human.

Your ideas on the origins of western philosophy and civilization are off by a few hundred years. The Greeks were not Jewish or Christian. Your attempts to ask pre-Descartes philosophical questions are rather silly.

Okay, I just realized I hate this thread. Have fun with Philosophy for Dummies.

Dummies.

[Slade_the_Slide]

There is a word I currently use...for all of you...people. You people type in the same "I'm intelligent, I know things, I'm above religion, blah blah blah...I mock the world cause I'm insecure" tone yet most of you probably attended something like a second or third tier state college (or never attended college) and read book from people like Richard Dawkins while thinking "I'm so logical and above the rest and if people don't agree with me then they must be wrong." If you didn't attend college you've probably invented reasons like "I'm anti-establishment" to justify why you have any semblance of legitimate knowledge.

The funny part is while most of you denounce religion and go on about ideas of science/logic/evolution/whatever, most of you probably have just as vague idea about the intricacies of these subjects as you do about the intricacies of religion. This is perhaps the saddest part in all of this. The come back here will be "I have a degree in blah blah blah, I know things." All I will do is laugh if I see them.

There is a difference between religion and the organization/politics surrounding religion. Further, while you stand firm against religion, you might not realize that ideas of morality in the western world is strongly based in judeo-christian ethics. Call whatever your idea of morality whatever you want - it's likely most of these ideas are rooted in religion. Consider - why be moral? State will punish you if you don't? If you stop yourself from being immoral - what brings you to act correctly? What you call "I am in control of my mind, i do what is right, blah blah blah," I happen to call "indoctrination by the state." The stat ein return gets the indoctrinating ideas from religion.

Now, the word I call you folk. Neckbeards. You're all god dang neckbeards. Full of yourselves yet total idiots.

[IMG]http://pugetsoundblogs.com/bremertonbeat/files/2008/10

False.

1. While admittedly I went to a small university, that doesn't take away from it's educational merits. I majored in History

2. One doesn't need school to gain education. All the universities and such are there to show you put the time in the get a degree basically. The only person who can learn is yourself. They provide the tools, you do the rest. Thus, one can be very self taught, but that doesn't hold up when looking for a job really.

3. I don't see many atheists who are insecure at all. Most I know are very secure. While I don't believe in any divine being, I think if that is whatever comforts you at the end of the day, go for it. Just don't impose it on others

4. I can't really grow much of beard, plus neckbeards itch

5. Reality and delusion are opposites. I'd rather live in reality, or as close as one can get, than to be in a happy delusion, no matter how comforting it may seem.

[Humerox]

I used it every post after you fucking retard.

I even put it in quotations each time.

He meant Cthulu bro.

I noticed it too, lol.

[Fists]

Harrison brother, Humerox is right! I was talking to Cthulu! No need to be so hasty on the defense!

[chtulu]

You guys are just so bull-headed.

[boboo]

You guys are just so bull-headed.

Funny thing is agree on most of your points, but you shoot yourself in the foot by saying if you beleive in god youre an idiot. (I hadnt noticed u were the one to start the thread). I think organized religion is transparently false, but take someone like my father. He beleives in something, some life after death, some life energy that makes us conscient past death, but not organized religion.

The point is, who the fuck knows if the visible universe is not some experiment in some unimaginably complex creature's beaker? You seem to stray too close to religious dogmatism yourself.

[chtulu]

Funny thing is agree on most of your points, but you shoot yourself in the foot by saying if you beleive in god youre an idiot. (I hadnt noticed u were the one to start the thread). I think organized religion is transparently false, but take someone like my father. He beleives in something, some life after death, some life energy that makes us conscient past death, but not organized religion.

The point is, who the fuck knows if the visible universe is not some experiment in some unimaginably complex creature's beaker? You seem to stray too close to religious dogmatism yourself.

That doesn't answer any questions though, it's just a circular argument. If something that complex made this universe, what made that complex entity?

[boboo]

That doesn't answer any questions though, it's just a circular argument. If something that complex made this universe, what made that complex entity?

Who the fuck knows, thats my point.

[chtulu]

Who the fuck knows, thats my point.

The fact that the bible hasn't done anything to further our knowledge, when we, as a species, are able to further ourselves without the help of some omnipotent being. There is no GOOD reason to believe in a God.

[boboo]

That doesn't answer any questions though, it's just a circular argument. If something that complex made this universe, what made that complex entity?

Maybe nobody made it, maybe that unimaginably complex creature lives in a universe of its own that spontaneously generated itself, like what some atheists beleives how this universe was generated. But that unimaginably complex creature got bored and asked dad for a universe creation kit(TM) for festivus and played with it for a tiny fraction of its lifespan, 13 billion years. That would be delicious irony wouldnt it?

[chtulu]

Maybe nobody made it, maybe that unimaginably complex creature lives in a universe of its own that spontaneously generated itself, like what some atheists beleives how this universe was generated. But that unimaginably complex creature got bored and asked dad for a universe creation kit(TM) for festivus and played with it for a tiny fraction of its lifespan, 13 billion years. That would be delicious irony wouldnt it?

Only if we were made by Hasbro.

[Humerox]

That doesn't answer any questions though, it's just a circular argument. If something that complex made this universe, what made that complex entity?

An Introduction To The Law Of One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcYwrGMJ-EQ&feature=related)

[Humerox]

An Introduction To The Law Of One (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcYwrGMJ-EQ&feature=related)

And more recently:

God is Unnecessary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nb7LCau_Z_Y&feature=related)

[eqholmes]

So what I got from reading 5 pages of this before it became the samething said over and over is........ "What I believe is right, what you believe is wrong unless you agree with me" ?????

Maybe just let people believe what they want and shut up? Only problem I have ever had is when people try to push whatever bullshit they believe on me. Trying to convince someone to believe you without fact is like me trying to stick my dick in Megan Fox, its not going to happen!!!!

Holmes 50 nerco
Gretzky 50 ranger

[skulldudes]

lols @ tag "rolled agnostic in eq"

[boboo]

So what I got from reading 5 pages of this before it became the samething said over and over is........ "What I believe is right, what you believe is wrong unless you agree with me" ?????

Maybe just let people believe what they want and shut up? Only problem I have ever had is when people try to push whatever bullshit they believe on me. Trying to convince someone to believe you without fact is like me trying to stick my dick in Megan Fox, its not going to happen!!!!

Holmes 50 nerco
Gretzky 50 ranger

it becomes a problem though when religion becomes fanatical, im very apprehensive of when these christian apocalyptic nuts try to "cash in" on the natural consequences of humans pillaging the environment too fast for it to replenish and people start to beleive "YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU STRAY OFF THE PATH THAT GOD HAS CHOSEN FOR YOU?!? NOW REPENT OR DIE!!!" as they tie you to a bonfire and history repeats itself.

[boboo]

So thats why shutting up is not an option. If you think im just paranoid, watch this documentary on apocalyptic nuts:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6439295521791525424#

Thats fucking scary right there

[eqholmes]

Actually your kinda stating my point, the fanatical people are the ones I deem the problem. Believe whatever you want and in whatever you want. Unless your belief is harmful to someone else's being. People that try to push whatever their belief is on others are dumb drones and should STFU. Let people believe whatever is the most fitting/comfortable/easiest whatever their reason, as long as they dont push it on others, what is the problem? These people that keep copy and pasting stuff that makes whatever they believe in are either pushers or conformist that want you to believe what they believe in, because someone that doesn't look/think the same can't be right!!! right?!? Believe what you want and don't be so insercure about your belief that you must try to post "facts" to convince others.

This was directed at no one person, but more a statement to let people be themselves.

Holmes 50 nerco
Gretzky 50 ranger

[waldo]

This argument will go on forever. As was stated you cannot prove whether or not there is a God. It comes down to faith. I know most people when they think of faith they link it to a religion. But faith is believing in what you cannot see. I myself have faith in Jesus/God. I see the beauty of this world, the miracles that happen, how everything in this world serves a small purpose, even dung beetles/worms. This is my right. You people who believe there is no God and believe in science, there is no proof as was stated. This belief in science comes down to a faith that there is no God. You live your life with the faith that you have nobody to answer to when you die. That is your right and your choice. I am not telling you that you are wrong we all have free will. What i will do is talk to you if you have any questions about God. I will try to convince you and pray for you. But the end decision comes down to you. I don't hate you, I have been taught not to hate. You have different opinions of the world than I do. God made us as free thinkers and I tend to believe that hurts us sometimes more than it helps. As i said though it comes down to faith. No matter how much we discover as a human race there will always be more to discover. EX. where did god come from, and the big bang theory for science. What caused this big bang theory, how did all this stuff come out of nothing? What is to say that the big bang theory was not God creating the world. I will uphold my faith and you will uphold yours. In the end if i was wrong I wont care, but as was stated earlier if you were wrong then you will care. I have a college degree in history/sociology and went to a liberal arts college so I have read many different views this is the view i believe in. Its my right to, and you have a right to believe in yours. And as far as if my grammar is ok I could care a less i am posting on an internet message board, not a formal letter to somebody important.

[PureLo]

I don't want to get into a huge ordeal because i could write a novel to explain my side of things and give examples of things to show you some different ways to think given your already stated opinions of your side, but I am aware minds/thoughts won't be changed. However, I will type out some things that came to mind browsing this particular thread just because. I won't take umbrage to the fact i've been called an idiot because as far as I am concerned from a few of the thread creators posts he uses stereotypes and a form of generalization towards a mass variety of people who can and do think differently therefore showing idiocy at its maximum himself. There is no one set way people have a relationship with another person, so therefore in the Christian aspect a person's relationship and experiences with Christ and the Bible will vary depending on who you talk to. So to say all Christians this or all Christians that is quite frankly just wrong.

I want to bring up a few key points that i doubt have been brought up, but that i figure can relate to everyone who is on these particular forums and they are these...

1. What is it you see EverQuest as? (Do you see it as a game, how would you explain this game?)

[My basic thoughts: This is indeed a game that is based on a digital living and breathing world where there are time lapses and events within them, pretty much a fantasy reality. This game brings in variations of fantasy and imagination into play that help serve the realities of purpose, progression, power, and diversity.]

2. With that being sad how is it that this "world" of EverQuest came to be? Did it come out of nowhere because of a few glitches within some computer network one day? Did it evolve out of a culmination of past games to grow into what it is today? Or was it just simply CREATED in order to come into existence and function?

[My basic thoughts: All of you know that it took the minds and skills of individuals to bring this game to life and populate it with NPC's, ways of gameplay, race/class dynamics, mobs, spawn timers, night and day cycles, etc. all different forms of programming. As Rogean and Nilbog can attest to there is indeed creation involved and a translation piece that of course translates the science of programming into the visual and graphical experience we then play on, which is also created... none of this just evolved or happened on its own.]

3. That brings me to this, if you can grasp the reality of a computer game needing to be created... why is it such of a stretch to grasp the reality of others believing and knowing that there is a divine creator? If something as simplistic as a pencil has to be created in order to then be used as the simplistic tool it is intended to be. Why is it that you think it is out of question for things as complex as the human body, solar system, and universe to then themselves have a creator? After all didn't each and every person reading/typing into this thread themselves have to be created by the reproduction process in order to even be living in the first place, because last time i checked we didn't just "appear".

4. I see how some have said they enjoy life and appreciate "freedom". Well what if you were in a third world country that didn't allow you such a lifestyle or any freedom at all how would that make you feel? The way those countries are being run there obviously are choices and look at how the country of America had it's choice to become free and resonate its system. Now what if there were a world where everyone and everything was the same, you didn't have any choice what so ever? Not many people can fathom how boring or even bland that may be. Again imagine EverQuest with only 1 race, 1 class, and 1 zone... how garbage would that be? The creator wouldn't have had much ambition nor would it be much worth to even populate. The EverQuest we know wouldn't make much sense if it wasn't populated considering there wouldn't be anything to offer us the players if the creator hadn't populated it. The earth was populated and as you all know Humans are the superior and dominant species. Now imagine if we didn't create our characters and execute our own experiences in-game to make it unique. How dull would it then be to the one that created it or is experiencing it? The game developers gave us choices and the way we go about leveling and progressing our character is up to us. So to answer one of the appeals Chtulu had, how does it not make sense that God would want to populate a creation of his (In this case Earth) and give his other creation (us) a life in order to choose and experience things uniquely instead of forcing an assembly line type form of repetition that wouldn't produce much of anything. There is good and evil in this world, which is another form of free will of action. What is it that you think drives those forces of good/evil beyond just one single person? You can't blame everything on one thing in life, so goes the same in this case. You have to acknowledge there is a Devil as well because that is what Christians believe, so to ignore that aspect and explanation of evil won't serve your argument too well.

5. Another little side note, what year did you celebrate it becoming a few weeks ago... cause i believe there were tons of people celebrating 2011 no matter what their background belief system was. Considering you allow yourself to believe/know the fact that EQ has a different time cycle than what our real lives have, you lack in your argument with your generalizations of what Christians believe based on how the Bible explains time differences between Spiritual and flesh. So like EQ, which is a digital game is different from our flesh and blood time.... the time of God aka a Spirit is different than us who is flesh and blood. If you can grasp the one, i don't see how you can argue the other. So i think Chtulu that you need to learn up a little more in certain areas before you totally criticize something if you don't indeed know how exactly it is applied, in this case i just used the "time" example.


The Bible has yet to be proven wrong where as last time i checked Science has been proven wrong time and time again. Science hasn't even distinguished the absolute reason why us Humans are indeed the superior species and what makes us different, it is quite simply explained in the Bible though. What other people don't understand either is Faith is a built in Human utility, just how you go about investing in it is different. Many people do it unknowingly and try to knowingly reject it while others grasp it and acknowledge it. You can't tell me every person whether proclaimed Atheist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or any other religion doesn't have faith. The last time i checked none of us knowingly tell ourselves to step, step, step when we walk or tell our brain to send off electrical signals in order for our eyes to work, fingers to move, heart to pump or lungs to breathe. You wonder how that relates to faith? Well when you go to sleep do you not have "faith" that your body will continue to function in order for you to live through the night and wake up the next day? Whether you know it or not you do or else you wouldn't fall asleep. You have faith in your body to operate correctly, everyone does... so to bash faith of any other kind is kind of hypocritical and absurd considering it is their individual right and a simple utility they are created with.

Forgive me for not reading every post that has went on or being professionally organized with my post, but i just felt obligated to write on a few points that i felt were of relevance. I hope the way i injected some of my correlations, that they were simplistic enough for you to understand and grasp.

As mentioned by Waldo, everyone has their own right and free will... frankly that is what was intended hence the involvement of "creativity" and "uniqueness" no matter what it is you are talking about. I don't hate anyone nor think ill of anyone who has differing beliefs or understandings based upon their own experiences. However, I do feel that respect does need to be introduced because of how different everyone is in general. I doubt anyone in here including myself is going to totally change someone's life outlook with a single post, but discussion is allowed considering this is a "forum" and that is just the way it is so try not to get all bent out of shape and criticize/belittle other people because i doubt that is how you yourselves want to be treated yourself.

Sorry for this being so long, as i said i could go on for a long time if i wanted to... i tried to be as brief as possible so i may not have made some things fully clear. This will be my only post so if you wish to continue with me personally on any of the subject matter you can PM me questions or your own intellectual arguments with certain viewpoints are welcomed, just know you aren't going to alter my beliefs because i've experienced to much to know what I stand behind is truth. If you have blatant insults or hatred you want to say or send, don't waste your time because it will be ignored... i won't be back in this thread nor respond to the PM. God Bless!

[Kassel]

I did not read that

[Stibe]

Holy fucking troll success. You're ALL idiots.

[chtulu]

Holy fucking troll success. You're ALL idiots.


Nah, just the ones who STILL believe in God, even after my compelling arguments of reason.

[Lill-Leif]

The Bible has yet to be proven wrong

Fail.

[Slathar]

Nah, just the ones who STILL believe in God, even after my compelling arguments of reason.

lol, you heard it here first folks. god disproved on everquest emulation forum. news at 10!

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

yaaaflow said : "Well equiped twink tanks stuff within 3 levels of himself news at 11"

Lame.

[RocketMoose]

Fail.

Great evidence.

[zenoo]

Compelling arguments of reason, you must be joking? A few links to Richard Dawkins garbage is hardly a compelling argument. Dawkins is indeed a smart and effective scientist, but his philosophy is terrible and he is in fact a laughing matter for most serious philosophers in academia.

Poster whose name starts with a D here actually did a pretty decent job of laying things out for you, but you just blew right by the important points and tried to flame back instead of responding carefully. You can't even stay on track in your own thread.

So check it out, heres some logical thought on the God matter, pretty much the stuff you can learn at a junior college. We exist, and we depend on contingent things in order to exist. My existence depends on my parents whose existence depends on,,back,,back we go to the starting point. All these contingent events seem to trace back, but endlessly and that is unsettling. If you believe as I do in the principle of sufficient reason (there is an explanation for everything basically) then you need to explain this contingent chain of events which is your existence. A contingent thing can never be the starting point. The only way to break this chain is to posit a necessary being, call it God, but this God hardly commits me to anything terrible Christians have done in the last 2000 years. Anyway, this is known as the cosmological argument and of course it is hardly airtight and has created a pretty interesting debate. Many brilliant people accepting this argument, others rejecting it.

Point is..belief in God is not fanatical or illogical. As you have already been told in this thread but failed to digest--people are illogical. Events such as the inquisition reflect how terrible humans can be, it has no bearing on the metaphysical objective truth of gods existence or non-existence.

If your beef is with Churches being abusive or intermingling with our government that is a legitimate gripe, but you arn't talking Philosophy now, just saying you don't like corruption.

Sit on a forum and regurgitate bullshit you youtubed from Richard Dawkins, a good scientist turned bad philosopher and claim all theists to be idiots while not offering any premised arguments is absurd. Atheists seem to think they are free from the burden of proof, but that just isn't so. If you make a positive empirical claim, then claim to have logic on your side, it is on you to show that--otherwise become agnostic and stop looking like a moron.

[JayDee]

I don't want to get into a huge ordeal because i could write a novel to explain my side of things and give examples of things to show you some different ways to think given your already stated opinions of your side, but I am aware minds/thoughts won't be changed. However, I will type out some things that came to mind browsing this particular thread just because. I won't take umbrage to the fact i've been called an idiot because as far as I am concerned from a few of the thread creators posts he uses stereotypes and a form of generalization towards a mass variety of people who can and do think differently therefore showing idiocy at its maximum himself. There is no one set way people have a relationship with another person, so therefore in the Christian aspect a person's relationship and experiences with Christ and the Bible will vary depending on who you talk to. So to say all Christians this or all Christians that is quite frankly just wrong.

I want to bring up a few key points that i doubt have been brought up, but that i figure can relate to everyone who is on these particular forums and they are these...

1. What is it you see EverQuest as? (Do you see it as a game, how would you explain this game?)

[My basic thoughts: This is indeed a game that is based on a digital living and breathing world where there are time lapses and events within them, pretty much a fantasy reality. This game brings in variations of fantasy and imagination into play that help serve the realities of purpose, progression, power, and diversity.]

2. With that being sad how is it that this "world" of EverQuest came to be? Did it come out of nowhere because of a few glitches within some computer network one day? Did it evolve out of a culmination of past games to grow into what it is today? Or was it just simply CREATED in order to come into existence and function?

[My basic thoughts: All of you know that it took the minds and skills of individuals to bring this game to life and populate it with NPC's, ways of gameplay, race/class dynamics, mobs, spawn timers, night and day cycles, etc. all different forms of programming. As Rogean and Nilbog can attest to there is indeed creation involved and a translation piece that of course translates the science of programming into the visual and graphical experience we then play on, which is also created... none of this just evolved or happened on its own.]

3. That brings me to this, if you can grasp the reality of a computer game needing to be created... why is it such of a stretch to grasp the reality of others believing and knowing that there is a divine creator? If something as simplistic as a pencil has to be created in order to then be used as the simplistic tool it is intended to be. Why is it that you think it is out of question for things as complex as the human body, solar system, and universe to then themselves have a creator? After all didn't each and every person reading/typing into this thread themselves have to be created by the reproduction process in order to even be living in the first place, because last time i checked we didn't just "appear".

4. I see how some have said they enjoy life and appreciate "freedom". Well what if you were in a third world country that didn't allow you such a lifestyle or any freedom at all how would that make you feel? The way those countries are being run there obviously are choices and look at how the country of America had it's choice to become free and resonate its system. Now what if there were a world where everyone and everything was the same, you didn't have any choice what so ever? Not many people can fathom how boring or even bland that may be. Again imagine EverQuest with only 1 race, 1 class, and 1 zone... how garbage would that be? The creator wouldn't have had much ambition nor would it be much worth to even populate. The EverQuest we know wouldn't make much sense if it wasn't populated considering there wouldn't be anything to offer us the players if the creator hadn't populated it. The earth was populated and as you all know Humans are the superior and dominant species. Now imagine if we didn't create our characters and execute our own experiences in-game to make it unique. How dull would it then be to the one that created it or is experiencing it? The game developers gave us choices and the way we go about leveling and progressing our character is up to us. So to answer one of the appeals Chtulu had, how does it not make sense that God would want to populate a creation of his (In this case Earth) and give his other creation (us) a life in order to choose and experience things uniquely instead of forcing an assembly line type form of repetition that wouldn't produce much of anything. There is good and evil in this world, which is another form of free will of action. What is it that you think drives those forces of good/evil beyond just one single person? You can't blame everything on one thing in life, so goes the same in this case. You have to acknowledge there is a Devil as well because that is what Christians believe, so to ignore that aspect and explanation of evil won't serve your argument too well.

5. Another little side note, what year did you celebrate it becoming a few weeks ago... cause i believe there were tons of people celebrating 2011 no matter what their background belief system was. Considering you allow yourself to believe/know the fact that EQ has a different time cycle than what our real lives have, you lack in your argument with your generalizations of what Christians believe based on how the Bible explains time differences between Spiritual and flesh. So like EQ, which is a digital game is different from our flesh and blood time.... the time of God aka a Spirit is different than us who is flesh and blood. If you can grasp the one, i don't see how you can argue the other. So i think Chtulu that you need to learn up a little more in certain areas before you totally criticize something if you don't indeed know how exactly it is applied, in this case i just used the "time" example.


The Bible has yet to be proven wrong where as last time i checked Science has been proven wrong time and time again. Science hasn't even distinguished the absolute reason why us Humans are indeed the superior species and what makes us different, it is quite simply explained in the Bible though. What other people don't understand either is Faith is a built in Human utility, just how you go about investing in it is different. Many people do it unknowingly and try to knowingly reject it while others grasp it and acknowledge it. You can't tell me every person whether proclaimed Atheist, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or any other religion doesn't have faith. The last time i checked none of us knowingly tell ourselves to step, step, step when we walk or tell our brain to send off electrical signals in order for our eyes to work, fingers to move, heart to pump or lungs to breathe. You wonder how that relates to faith? Well when you go to sleep do you not have "faith" that your body will continue to function in order for you to live through the night and wake up the next day? Whether you know it or not you do or else you wouldn't fall asleep. You have faith in your body to operate correctly, everyone does... so to bash faith of any other kind is kind of hypocritical and absurd considering it is their individual right and a simple utility they are created with.

Forgive me for not reading every post that has went on or being professionally organized with my post, but i just felt obligated to write on a few points that i felt were of relevance. I hope the way i injected some of my correlations, that they were simplistic enough for you to understand and grasp.

As mentioned by Waldo, everyone has their own right and free will... frankly that is what was intended hence the involvement of "creativity" and "uniqueness" no matter what it is you are talking about. I don't hate anyone nor think ill of anyone who has differing beliefs or understandings based upon their own experiences. However, I do feel that respect does need to be introduced because of how different everyone is in general. I doubt anyone in here including myself is going to totally change someone's life outlook with a single post, but discussion is allowed considering this is a "forum" and that is just the way it is so try not to get all bent out of shape and criticize/belittle other people because i doubt that is how you yourselves want to be treated yourself.

Sorry for this being so long, as i said i could go on for a long time if i wanted to... i tried to be as brief as possible so i may not have made some things fully clear. This will be my only post so if you wish to continue with me personally on any of the subject matter you can PM me questions or your own intellectual arguments with certain viewpoints are welcomed, just know you aren't going to alter my beliefs because i've experienced to much to know what I stand behind is truth. If you have blatant insults or hatred you want to say or send, don't waste your time because it will be ignored... i won't be back in this thread nor respond to the PM. God Bless!

lol u care

[purist]

So check it out, heres some logical thought on the God matter, pretty much the stuff you can learn at a junior college. We exist, and we depend on contingent things in order to exist. My existence depends on my parents whose existence depends on,,back,,back we go to the starting point. All these contingent events seem to trace back, but endlessly and that is unsettling. If you believe as I do in the principle of sufficient reason (there is an explanation for everything basically) then you need to explain this contingent chain of events which is your existence. A contingent thing can never be the starting point.

This is just your standard cosmological argument. I don't even need to refute it because you already contradict your own conclusion in the premise of your own argument. Everything needs a cause = Your premise. God is the first cause = Your conclusion. You can't have it both ways. If everything had to have a cause, then there could not be a first cause. Your nonetheless assert a first cause, so, I ask you how you can assume there can be a first, uncaused cause? The answer is you don't. You're just replacing a mystery with a mystery. Sophomoric and weak argument.

[Harrison]

This may be the first time I agree with cocksheath here.

[Lill-Leif]

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0906/athiests-athiests-win-jesus-fail-demotivational-poster-1245289266.jpg

[Mardur]

I knew it wouldn't be long before someone busted out Aquinas' Five Ways, ZENOO.

[zenoo]

You guys really do behave like hungry jack terriers on here. I was hardly trying to say the cosmological is definite proof that god exists, I was just showing the original poster that there are arguments out there for god that arn't based on blind faith or zealotry. I am not going to go into a back in forth debate playing cosmological argument defender here. There are arguments and counter-arguments on either side, and we hardly do the debate justice writing 1 paragraph in support or to attack.

Go back and reread the post where I introduce the cosmological argument and try to determine by the tone if I was showing an example of how the god debate can be done logically or if I was claiming to have discovered the winning hand in the debate. In fact I admit that it isn't airtight and that brilliant people on both sides accept and deny it.

It isn't my fault that people with knee jerk responses on here don't understand what is meant by a necessary being and I hardly feel the need to try to explain. As I said, it isn't airtight, but no you don't know how to absolutely refute it in 1 paragraph.

Because reading comprehension here is so poor: My original post is to the OP trying to show that he has to do a good job supporting atheism, actually debate philosophical notions of god, or give up and become agnostic; because currently he looks like something between a troll and an idiot.

[nalkin]

My original post is to the OP trying to show that he has to do a good job supporting atheism, actually debate philosophical notions of god, or give up and become agnostic; because currently he looks like something between a troll and an idiot.

Going to say this in this thread now because, having looked it up, I have such a strong urge to correct everyone on their mistaken semantics.

Agnosticism is not a third choice instead of atheism or theism. Atheism and Theism are the only two choices as they span all possibilities. If you are "agnostic" you are still technically a theist or an atheist.

Atheism is not the belief that a god or god does not exist. Although it can be, that isn't necessarily the case.

So everyone go update your facebook pages now

[zenoo]

Ok Nalkin thanks for the semantics lesson. I guess there isn't a word in the dictionary called agnostic. People who are uncertain of their place in the universe will just have to flip a coin and take sides thanks to your enlightening post.

[zenoo]

a-theism
theism
a
Anti
theism

not theism
atheist
not theist


Uncertain does not fit with the term atheist.

[chtulu]

You guys really do behave like hungry jack terriers on here. I was hardly trying to say the cosmological is definite proof that god exists, I was just showing the original poster that there are arguments out there for god that arn't based on blind faith or zealotry. I am not going to go into a back in forth debate playing cosmological argument defender here. There are arguments and counter-arguments on either side, and we hardly do the debate justice writing 1 paragraph in support or to attack.



Actually, there is NO argument or counter argument FOR a God. The only explanation that has been give is that there has to be a God because the Bible tells us so.

[Slathar]

Actually, there is NO argument or counter argument FOR a God. The only explanation that has been give is that there has to be a God because the Bible tells us so.

faith is taking the first step when the you can't see the whole staircase

[zenoo]

There is a lot more to the God debate than that the bible tells us so. You actually believing that shows how painfully ignorant you are. If you want to feel smarter than bible thumpers go ahead, but believe me you look like an ass to anyone who has looked at anything difficult with an objective mind.

I need to stop debating with people who barely know how to read.

[Beauregard]

There are those who think critically about religion, which always leads to the same conclusion, and those who do not.

[seratt]

Why even begin a thread like this except to start shit? I feel sorry for you chtulu, no matter what you may believe.

[nalkin]

Ok Nalkin thanks for the semantics lesson. I guess there isn't a word in the dictionary called agnostic. People who are uncertain of their place in the universe will just have to flip a coin and take sides thanks to your enlightening post.

Agnostic is a word, im just saying people are either atheist or theist; you can't be agnostic instead. You can be agnostic and be a theist, or you can be agnostic and be an atheist.

Again, atheism isn't the belief that god doesn't exist. It is the lack of belief in a god or gods. This is subtle (which is why so many people like you get it wrong) but there is a huge difference obv. You can lack a belief in gods (be an atheist) because you are agnostic ie, you can't know for sure whether god(s) exist.

Similarly, a theist can be agnostic by believing in a god but not knowing for sure whether god(s) exist.

Here you go,
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sNDZb0KtJDk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sNDZb0KtJDk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

P.S. - go to a better school.

[Harrison]

The definition of the word disagrees with you.

Again, atheism isn't the belief that god doesn't exist. It is the lack of belief in a god or gods.

Definition:

a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

But hey, talk down to people that are right just to argue semantics...it's okay.

[Beauregard]

to illustrate the title of this thread i've constructed a basic chart of the grand debate.

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/abaddonvg/chart.jpg

[nalkin]

But hey, talk down to people that are right just to argue semantics...it's okay.

Way to do the same thing jerk :(

[Stibe]

The definition of the word disagrees with you.



Definition:



But hey, talk down to people that are right just to argue semantics...it's okay.

Totally ignore the first half of the definition you gave.

You're a fucking retard, but thats ok.

[Saskrotch]

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9_-NfKakS6A" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

[Shakedown7]

I BELIEVE IN CHARLES MANSON!

[purist]

My understanding is that a gnostic is someone who KNOWS God exists. Of course, none KNOWS God exists, hence, there are no gnostics in existence, only agnostics; ones who don't KNOW God exists. Everyone is an agnostic. It's a redundant, meaningless term. You're either an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist.

A theist is someone who BELIEVES God exists. Obviously, an atheist is someone who doesn't. There is no gray area here. There is no in-between. Either you believe in God or you don't. If you have any doubt, you aren't a theist. You're an atheist. Get over it. If you say that you just ignore the question, or don't think it's relevant, or you're in between, or you don't think you have enough information to make a decision, guess what, you're still an atheist. QQ.

[chtulu]

My understanding is that a gnostic is someone who KNOWS God exists. Of course, none KNOWS God exists, hence, there are no gnostics in existence, only agnostics; ones who don't KNOW God exists. Everyone is an agnostic. It's a redundant, meaningless term. You're either an agnostic theist or an agnostic atheist.

A theist is someone who BELIEVES God exists. Obviously, an atheist is someone who doesn't. There is no gray area here. There is no in-between. Either you believe in God or you don't. If you have any doubt, you aren't a theist. You're an atheist. Get over it. If you say that you just ignore the question, or don't think it's relevant, or you're in between, or you don't think you have enough information to make a decision, guess what, you're still an atheist. QQ.

No reason to believe in God.

[Humerox]

Of course, none KNOWS God exists...

false assumption. just for the sake of argument.

:)

[chtulu]

false assumption. just for the sake of argument.

:)

Your assumption is that there is someone that KNOWS God.

[Harrison]

Your assumption is that there is someone that KNOWS God.

And how exactly would you know that out of 6billion+ alive now, and however many dead since, someone hasn't in that time frame?

You wouldn't.

You're way out of your league little boy. I'd go back to Dr. Seuss so you can at least tell your friends you read books written by a doctor.

[zenoo]

I think Nalkins' next move is to link me to a Glen Beck website for further clarification. I correctly use the word agnostic everyday, thanks though buddy.

[chtulu]

And how exactly would you know that out of 6billion+ alive now, and however many dead since, someone hasn't in that time frame?

You wouldn't.

You're way out of your league little boy. I'd go back to Dr. Seuss so you can at least tell your friends you read books written by a doctor.

Because he'd have to exist for that to happen.

Out of all those people, why wouldn't there have been proof yet?

Your argument is also your down fall.

[Harrison]

*yawn* Your arguments are almost poorly formed enough to appear made by a child.

[Slathar]

someone graduated from a state school and wants to show off their extensive knowledge they learned as theyre now an unemployed liberal arts major

[chtulu]

And how exactly would you know that out of 6billion+ alive now, and however many dead since, someone hasn't in that time frame?

You wouldn't.

You're way out of your league little boy. I'd go back to Dr. Seuss so you can at least tell your friends you read books written by a doctor.

Because he'd have to exist for that to happen.

Out of all those people, why wouldn't there have been proof yet?

Your argument is also your down fall.

[chtulu]

Because he'd have to exist for that to happen.

Out of all those people, why wouldn't there have been proof yet?

Your argument is also your down fall.

double post fail

[Daldolma]

to illustrate the title of this thread i've constructed a basic chart of the grand debate.

http://i536.photobucket.com/albums/ff322/abaddonvg/chart.jpg

Best part of this is that psychology is misspelled. If you're going to be a condescending dick, at least catch up on junior high vocabulary.

There are a lot of very intelligent atheists. None of them have posted in this thread.

I find it interesting that nobody will address this point: many atheists claim they do not believe in God because there is no scientific evidence of any God's existence. At the same time, many atheists do believe in extraterrestrial life. My question is why? What's the difference? There is absolutely no scientific evidence of extraterrestrial life at this point in time. It's entirely theoretical. It's a belief. How can you condemn one, while subscribing to another? Do you take a scientific approach to these kind of questions, or not?

And as a side-note, the belief in God is far more logical and necessary than a belief in extraterrestrial life. As far as Man can comprehend the Universe, everything has a beginning. Everything was created, at some point or another. God is a logical extension of this. Something has to have been eternal. Whether it was a pair of atoms or a sentient Creator, it's so far beyond our grasp that it's ridiculous for any one person to act certain in one way or the other. When you talk about "all evidence" pointing against a God, you just sound ignorant. There is no evidence. On the other hand, it's very easy to imagine other planets devoid of life -- we've already found many of them. There's no evidence of life anywhere else, and there never has been. It's possible that there's life throughout the universe, but there's no scientific reason to believe there is. It'd be easy to imagine Earth as the only planet in the universe where life exists.

Now if you want to discuss religious doctrine, knock your socks off. There's plenty of evidence that points against many elements of many religions. But that's like poking holes in the movie Independence Day in order to disprove extraterrestrial life. Even if the Bible turns out to be a 2000 year old version of Beowulf, it doesn't mean you've disproven the existence of any God.

[Harrison]

Daldolma, you put too much effort in shooting down utter morons.

It's not going to change their point of view. Their minds are closed entirely. To them, they are more intelligent because they don't believe in one thing that someone else does. It's a crutch they cling to as a result of massive insecurities. You see it everywhere.

[Lill-Leif]

Harrison, you put too much effort in shooting down utter morons.

It's not going to change their point of view. Their minds are closed entirely. To them, they are more intelligent because they believe in one thing that someone else doesn't. It's a crutch they cling to as a result of massive insecurities. You see it everywhere.

[chtulu]

There are a lot of very intelligent atheists. None of them have posted in this thread.

I find it interesting that nobody will address this point: many atheists claim they do not believe in God because there is no scientific evidence of any God's existence. At the same time, many atheists do believe in extraterrestrial life. My question is why? What's the difference? There is absolutely no scientific evidence of extraterrestrial life at this point in time. It's entirely theoretical. It's a belief. How can you condemn one, while subscribing to another? Do you take a scientific approach to these kind of questions, or not?

And as a side-note, the belief in God is far more logical and necessary than a belief in extraterrestrial life. As far as Man can comprehend the Universe, everything has a beginning. Everything was created, at some point or another. God is a logical extension of this. Something has to have been eternal. Whether it was a pair of atoms or a sentient Creator, it's so far beyond our grasp that it's ridiculous for any one person to act certain in one way or the other. When you talk about "all evidence" pointing against a God, you just sound ignorant. There is no evidence. On the other hand, it's very easy to imagine other planets devoid of life -- we've already found many of them. There's no evidence of life anywhere else, and there never has been. It's possible that there's life throughout the universe, but there's no scientific reason to believe there is. It'd be easy to imagine Earth as the only planet in the universe where life exists.

Now if you want to discuss religious doctrine, knock your socks off. There's plenty of evidence that points against many elements of many religions. But that's like poking holes in the movie Independence Day in order to disprove extraterrestrial life. Even if the Bible turns out to be a 2000 year old version of Beowulf, it doesn't mean you've disproven the existence of any God.

We explain our existence by a combination of the anthropic principle and Darwin's principle of natural selection. That combination provides a complete and deeply satisfying explanation for everything that we see and know. Not only is the god hypothesis unnecessary. It is spectacularly unparsimonious. Not only do we need no God to explain the universe and life. God stands out in the universe as the most glaring of all superfluous sore thumbs.

We cannot, of course, disprove God, just as we can't disprove Thor, fairies, leprechauns and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. But, like those other fantasies that we can't disprove, we can say that God is very very improbable.

Like I've said, it is not up to secularists to disprove God, it is up to people who believe in such imaginary entities to give us reasons why we SHOULD believe in their delusions.

Also, there is evidence of why Our universe does not require a God to function (aka, evidence). Newtonian Laws explain phenomenons that were only explained through metaphors and stories based on God. Physics in general as solved many mysteries that we once chalked up to just "God's work". Evolution is another huge scientific understanding that further shows that God was not required to have animals live and change. Let's not also forget genetics and astronomy that have played their roles. You don't here people explaining that the Sky is blue because it's God's favorite color, or that we have droughts because he's angry with us. No, it is explained in ways humans understand, and that require no divine intervention.

What really confuses me is that you some how equate life outside of this planet to a divine entity that is omnipotent and omission. We are proof that it is capable to have life on a planet, why would we think that life couldn't happen any where else? We have an example of why it's plausible that there can be life elsewhere, we don't, however, have an example of super natural beings that have existed to postulate the existence of other divine creatures.

But it's ok, you're just like any other typical Theist. No real argument, just ad homniems and absurd, invalid logic. But thanks for being a condescending dick.

[chtulu]

It's also interesting that not of these theists have actually given a reasoning to why they insist on insulting me, like that some how invalidates anything I say.

I'm ignorant because?

I'm an asshole because?

I'm an idiot because?


Feel free to enlighten everyone.

[quellren]

I find it interesting that nobody will address this point: many atheists claim they do not believe in God because there is no scientific evidence of any God's existence. At the same time, many atheists do believe in extraterrestrial life. My question is why? What's the difference? There is absolutely no scientific evidence of extraterrestrial life at this point in time. It's entirely theoretical. It's a belief. How can you condemn one, while subscribing to another? Do you take a scientific approach to these kind of questions, or not?



Likely one one wants to touch this because God and aliens are two different, questions.

Science has provided a plausible (if incomplete) theory about how Earth's life evolved, and has outlined theories as to what is needed for this to happen elsewhere, even picked out other locations with the highest odds.
God has offered ZERO proof that he exists, and in fact has had claims made for his existence that were later proven impossible, or untruths.
That's the difference.

Life exists here on earth, there are other planets in our own solar system that at one time had environments that look as though they could have been similar to earth. If, for instance Mars, was at one time much like earth, with an atmosphere and liquid-state surface water, then it is probable that carbon-based life could have arisen there as well. Maybe not proliferation or much complexity, but it's plausible. Extrapolate the probability that this happened not once, but TWICE just in the same solar system across the whole of the known universe and its statistically ignorant to say that life developed NOWHERE else. It's not faith. Its fucking math. No, we don't have proof because we don't YET have the tools to observe it elsewhere. If it happened once, it CAN happen again.
If God is responsible for creating earth and all things on it, why didn't he hop next door to Mars and do it again? Doesn't it seem odd that he created this HUGE universe, and then chose a SINGLE chunk of rock to play with?

[chtulu]

Likely one one wants to touch this because God and aliens are two different, questions.


If God is responsible for creating earth and all things on it, why didn't he hop next door to Mars and do it again? Doesn't it seem odd that he created this HUGE universe, and then chose a SINGLE chunk of rock to play with?

Also,for trying to educate us and equate to living beings to THE CREATOR, The guy above us sure doesn't know a whole lot about astronomy and the extent of the universe ( that is forever expanding, by the way, which, also totally contradicts any kind of "fiery apocalypse" for judgment day).

[chtulu]

http://www.funonthenet.in/images/stories/forwards/scale%20of%20universe/Scale-Universe-Hubble-Ultra-Deep-Field.jpg

This is a photograph of a very small region of our night sky ( the large picture of all these galaxies are all found within that red box in the lower hand corner). In this photo is over thousands of galaxies.

I'm trying to paint a picture of how obscenely fast and magnificent the universe is, and when you see it this way, you really can't doubt that there IS life else where, be it single cell organisms or intelligent beings.

Now who comes off as the arrogant one? The Atheist who believes it is very plausible there is life else where, or the Theist who, despite knowing how vast and amazing this universe is, still think we are SO special and that "God" created us, and all the animals, on just one rock in a very AVERAGE galaxy in a small solar system.

[quellren]

Some random thoughts from my dirty, evil, atheist mind:

Why is it socially acceptable for people to come to my front door and tell me about their religious views in an effort to convert me, yet if I went to someone's door with a biology book and a pamphlet on atheism, I'd have the police called on me?

If the earth is 6 thousand-odd years old like the Bible claims, why have dinosaurs and plants turned into oil, but dead people are still skeletons? Why aren't Egyptian Kings gooey blobs in their tombs? They're both about the same age.

[Beauregard]

Best part of this is that psychology is misspelled. If you're going to be a condescending dick, at least catch up on junior high vocabulary.

There are a lot of very intelligent atheists. None of them have posted in this thread.

I find it interesting that nobody will address this point: many atheists claim they do not believe in God because there is no scientific evidence of any God's existence. At the same time, many atheists do believe in extraterrestrial life. My question is why? What's the difference? There is absolutely no scientific evidence of extraterrestrial life at this point in time. It's entirely theoretical. It's a belief. How can you condemn one, while subscribing to another? Do you take a scientific approach to these kind of questions, or not?

And as a side-note, the belief in God is far more logical and necessary than a belief in extraterrestrial life. As far as Man can comprehend the Universe, everything has a beginning. Everything was created, at some point or another. God is a logical extension of this. Something has to have been eternal. Whether it was a pair of atoms or a sentient Creator, it's so far beyond our grasp that it's ridiculous for any one person to act certain in one way or the other. When you talk about "all evidence" pointing against a God, you just sound ignorant. There is no evidence. On the other hand, it's very easy to imagine other planets devoid of life -- we've already found many of them. There's no evidence of life anywhere else, and there never has been. It's possible that there's life throughout the universe, but there's no scientific reason to believe there is. It'd be easy to imagine Earth as the only planet in the universe where life exists.

Now if you want to discuss religious doctrine, knock your socks off. There's plenty of evidence that points against many elements of many religions. But that's like poking holes in the movie Independence Day in order to disprove extraterrestrial life. Even if the Bible turns out to be a 2000 year old version of Beowulf, it doesn't mean you've disproven the existence of any God.

Pardon my spelling error in that 5 minute made chart, I must look like some completely primitive blood cult drone.

I don't know of any atheists who believe in extraterrestrials. However given the size of the universe (billions of earth-like planets in the Milky Way alone) and capabilities of life to survive in extreme conditions, it's almost a given that there is some forms of life outside our planet. Like on Gliese 581 g. Last year Steven S Vogt, professor of Astronomy and Astrophysics at the University of California, said his personal view was that there is a 100% chance for primitive life forms on the planet based on his studies.

See there's evidence for panspermia, that life/bacteria can travel through space on rocks and perhaps even land on a planet in the Goldilocks zone.

[Henini]

It's also interesting that not of these theists have actually given a reasoning to why they insist on insulting me, like that some how invalidates anything I say.

I'm ignorant because?

I'm an asshole because?

I'm an idiot because?


Feel free to enlighten everyone.

because you don't listen to them when they tell you it is how it is because they said so!

who are you to challenge priest and pastors and such!!! how dare you!!!
if they say god exist, it exists ok!


I'm sure most of them still wish they could burn anyone who challenges that!


Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man…living in the sky, who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer and burn and scream until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you and he needs money.
-George Carlin

[RocketMoose]

because you don't listen to them when they tell you it is how it is because they said so!

who are you to challenge priest and pastors and such!!! how dare you!!!
if they say god exist, it exists ok!


I'm sure most of them still wish they could burn anyone who challenges that!


Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man…living in the sky, who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer and burn and scream until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you and he needs money.
-George Carlin
No where in the Bible is your salvation contingent upon money. God created the Earth, and the fullness there in.

Here's a little joke for ya that will just go to show your lack of mental prowess, that you've already put on display for all.

A man dies and gets to Heaven, St. Peter tells him he can go back to Earth and bring 1 container full of anything he wants back with him. So the man thinks for a min, and says okay. Hustles back down to pick up the most cherished thing he can think of.

He comes back and St. Peter is curious and asks, "What's in the briefcase?" The man happily replies, "Let me show you." He lays the briefcase flat on the pedestal and slowly opens the locks. Inside the case is full of the most pristine Gold bricks. The man smiles, but St. Peter looks confused and says, "You brought pavement?"

Cute little joke, pretty silly I know, but dude, you've got serious issues if you think God NEEDS anything from you, money, love, or otherwise. He desires a relationship, and He wants your love, but in no way does God NEED anything from you, or me, or anyone else.

You guys keep confusing God with church, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The Modern day church is not at all what God intended church to become. Just like Jesus scolded the church back in the day for hosting games/gambling in the sanctuary, He wouldn't be pleased with most of churches, and how they conduct themselves.

[RocketMoose]

It's also interesting that not of these theists have actually given a reasoning to why they insist on insulting me, like that some how invalidates anything I say.

I'm ignorant because?

I'm an asshole because?

I'm an idiot because?


Feel free to enlighten everyone.
You may or may not be ignorant, I'm not sure if you've ever been properly educated on this topic, or any other for that matter, so that's irrelevant. If you're ignorant, that may or may not be any fault of your own.

You're an asshole because of your attitude and simply by the title of this thread.

You're an idiot because you use a Painbringer on raids and in groups, and claim that bards can't CC so you break mezzes. Outside of that, I dunno if you're really an idiot or not.

I do think it's funny that Atheists and Evolutionists are in here calling out the Theists because we're closed minded and can't possibly listen to anything anyone else has to say. But it's like they can't see that they are doing the exact same things, and in most cases are far more belligerent about their arguments.

You complain that you're being attacked, as if it's not happening to the rest of us in the thread just the same. You're the topic starter, you wanted the attention, you're getting it, congrats.

I mean I guess I'd be an Atheist too...if I had that much Faith...

[RocketMoose]

Some random thoughts from my dirty, evil, atheist mind:

Why is it socially acceptable for people to come to my front door and tell me about their religious views in an effort to convert me, yet if I went to someone's door with a biology book and a pamphlet on atheism, I'd have the police called on me?

If the earth is 6 thousand-odd years old like the Bible claims, why have dinosaurs and plants turned into oil, but dead people are still skeletons? Why aren't Egyptian Kings gooey blobs in their tombs? They're both about the same age.

You don't have to allow them to share with you, you can simply not answer the door.

Where in the Bible does it claim the Earth is 6,000 years old? Find it, bring it back to me...I dare you to read it cover-to-cover and show me where it says the Earth is only 6,000 years old.

[Beauregard]

Takes about as much faith to not believe in a god as it does to not believe in Poseidon. Enjoy viewing your whole life as a test.

[Beauregard]

He desires a relationship, and He wants your love.

Yes this creator of the cosmos desires a relationship with you and wants your love and if you don't give it to him he will burn you in agony for all of eternity. THANKS FOR ALL THESE OPTIONS LORD.

[RocketMoose]

Yes this creator of the cosmos desires a relationship with you and wants your love and if you don't give it to him he will burn you in agony for all of eternity. THANKS FOR ALL THESE OPTIONS LORD.

Who says you deserve more options?

Did Sony say, okay you've chosen to be a Darkelf, no one else in the game can be a Paladin but since you've made such a convincing argument that You and you alone should be above the rules, that we'll allow you, just you to be a Dark Elf Paladin.

I mean seriously, what is with this generation, and all of the everybody owes me something mentality?

Go make another Mr. Potato Head chart and rely on your scientific THEORIES.

There are no Scientific or any other facts that disprove God. That's why this debate is still going bro. If you had a fact, even a single fact that proved that God didn't exist, you'd forever change the world, because if there was truly a fact, that disproved God, everything would change.

You can't disprove God, just like to you, I can't prove God. God isn't into challenges, and isn't into tests. My entire life isn't a test, if you view it that way, it's no wonder you're so dead set against God. God isn't some big kid in the cosmos waiting to smite you for doing something wrong, if He was, why would he have sent his son to die as a sacrifice for you?

But it's Faith, you have Faith that there is no God, based on...theories. What you call facts.

I have Faith that there is a God, based on my own personal experiences. I can share with you my experiences, but it doesn't matter because you will just say it's unsubstantiated, or sensationalism or whatever else you want to write it off as so you can feel better about your Faith.

I don't have to attack you, in fact I feel bad for you.

I just wanna know, if there is a scientific fact that can explain everything, which is what you're saying by saying that Science proves there is no God (when it doesn't, in fact it seems to only further prove the existence of God) then what about those things that Science can't explain? What about those "UFOs" and what about people who have seen things that were very real(without the use of hallucinogens), but there is no evidence of them.

[razorz]

Everyone sucks.

[Beauregard]

Who says you deserve more options?

Did Sony say, okay you've chosen to be a Darkelf, no one else in the game can be a Paladin but since you've made such a convincing argument that You and you alone should be above the rules, that we'll allow you, just you to be a Dark Elf Paladin.

I mean seriously, what is with this generation, and all of the everybody owes me something mentality?

Go make another Mr. Potato Head chart and rely on your scientific THEORIES.

There are no Scientific or any other facts that disprove God. That's why this debate is still going bro. If you had a fact, even a single fact that proved that God didn't exist, you'd forever change the world, because if there was truly a fact, that disproved God, everything would change.

You can't disprove God, just like to you, I can't prove God. God isn't into challenges, and isn't into tests. My entire life isn't a test, if you view it that way, it's no wonder you're so dead set against God. God isn't some big kid in the cosmos waiting to smite you for doing something wrong, if He was, why would he have sent his son to die as a sacrifice for you?

But it's Faith, you have Faith that there is no God, based on...theories. What you call facts.

I have Faith that there is a God, based on my own personal experiences. I can share with you my experiences, but it doesn't matter because you will just say it's unsubstantiated, or sensationalism or whatever else you want to write it off as so you can feel better about your Faith.

I don't have to attack you, in fact I feel bad for you.

I just wanna know, if there is a scientific fact that can explain everything, which is what you're saying by saying that Science proves there is no God (when it doesn't, in fact it seems to only further prove the existence of God) then what about those things that Science can't explain? What about those "UFOs" and what about people who have seen things that were very real(without the use of hallucinogens), but there is no evidence of them.

Don't feel bad for me. I live a great life unburdened by the guilt brought about by adhering to Iron Age literature. The debate isn't still going on. We have too much knowledge at our hands to believe that sort of primitive shit.

Hitchens once made the argument that homo-sapiens were around for 80,000 years warring, raping each other, driving other tribes to extinction etc and God just all the sudden starts caring about what we do around 500 BCE when the old testiment originated. He's right, it makes absolutely no sense now that we know how and when mankind came to be.

or how about this,

Most of mankind that ever existed didn't believe in Jesus Christ or your ignorant version of god. Therefore according to your holy book most of mankind is in hell. This means your god is either not omnipotent because he failed at his creation, or hes simply fucking evil.

[Asher]

The only thing we can all say for sure is that we aren't certain.

We can have theories and having a theory isn't being stupid. In my opinion either is possible. I am certain in a few hundred years we will be able to create advanced life ourselves. I believe we have already created very very simple forms of life haven't we? Who is to say that a more ancient being hasn't already done this?

I am an agnostic and will remain that way.

I considered myself a christian until I studied history and found out how religion was used in the early days to control people. I do not put any faith in anything these people have said or done.

I am ok with saying that I do not know and anyone who says they do know is lying.

Asher

[Beauregard]

The only thing we can all say for sure is that we aren't certain.

We can have theories and having a theory isn't being stupid. In my opinion either is possible. I am certain in a few hundred years we will be able to create advanced life ourselves. I believe we have already created very very simple forms of life haven't we? Who is to say that a more ancient being hasn't already done this?

I am an agnostic and will remain that way.

I considered myself a christian until I studied history and found out how religion was used in the early days to control people. I do not put any faith in anything these people have said or done.

I am ok with saying that I do not know and anyone who says they do know is lying.

Asher

Hate to break it to you but there's never been a time when religion wasn't used to control people.

And just because you don't have an opinion either way doesn't make those of us more sure in our beliefs liars.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd05KELsI/AAAAAAAAAEE/1lMTIPPryac/1_light%5B19%5D.png?imgmax=800
http://christophersisk.com/dawkins-belief-scale-images/
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd1PBC-tI/AAAAAAAAAEI/rafV5BzpqD8/2_light%5B4%5D.png?imgmax=800
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd1fdoKnI/AAAAAAAAAEM/EjqjYS3tnzw/3_light%5B4%5D.png?imgmax=800
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd1zXWdLI/AAAAAAAAAEQ/XTEvpZgdvpQ/4_light%5B8%5D.png?imgmax=800
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd2HIh8VI/AAAAAAAAAEU/_tAVuDlMC50/5_light%5B4%5D.png?imgmax=800
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd2cWJU6I/AAAAAAAAAEY/9PxB19MHmNA/6_light%5B10%5D.png?imgmax=800
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd25zdyTI/AAAAAAAAAEc/hbZJb1tajU8/7_light%5B12%5D.png?imgmax=800

Now if you're saying #1 and #7 cannot possibly know for sure, then I agree with you.

[RocketMoose]

Don't feel bad for me. I live a great life unburdened by the guilt brought about by adhering to Iron Age literature. The debate isn't still going on. We have too much knowledge at our hands to believe that sort of primitive shit.

Hitchens once made the argument that homo-sapiens were around for 80,000 years warring, raping each other, driving other tribes to extinction etc and God just all the sudden starts caring about what we do around 500 BCE when the old testiment originated. He's right, it makes absolutely no sense now that we know how and when mankind came to be.

or how about this,

Most of mankind that ever existed didn't believe in Jesus Christ or your ignorant version of god. Therefore according to your holy book most of mankind is in hell. This means your god is either not omnipotent because he failed at his creation, or hes simply fucking evil.
You've obviously never read it, so are therefore ignorant, so seriously stop spewing your propaganda all over the forums seriously dude. You've never been more wrong about anything.

Because if you knew anything about it, you'd know that Jesus wasn't around when Elijah was called up in a chariot of fire to Heaven, one of the few who have lived to not encounter death. So I guess he's in Hell according to you, since ya know, Jesus hadn't come yet?

What you fail to realize is despite the fact that Jesus had not come as a man, He was there from the very beginning. The sacrifices that were made before Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice were that of animals, and that's something that goes back far more than 6,000 years, in fact the Bible doesn't say anything about this 6,000 year number people keep spouting off.

I feel really bad for you.

Go read the book, before you try to discount it. That'd be like me not reading a theory and trying to disprove it. You don't even know what it says, or what it talks about. Just because you know some "Christians" doesn't mean anything.

You shouldn't be so mad.

[RocketMoose]

The only thing we can all say for sure is that we aren't certain.

We can have theories and having a theory isn't being stupid. In my opinion either is possible. I am certain in a few hundred years we will be able to create advanced life ourselves. I believe we have already created very very simple forms of life haven't we? Who is to say that a more ancient being hasn't already done this?

I am an agnostic and will remain that way.

I considered myself a christian until I studied history and found out how religion was used in the early days to control people. I do not put any faith in anything these people have said or done.

I am ok with saying that I do not know and anyone who says they do know is lying.

Asher
Being a Christian has nothing to do with religion. That's what I think people have the hardest time separating.

[Beauregard]

You've obviously never read it, so are therefore ignorant, so seriously stop spewing your propaganda all over the forums seriously dude. You've never been more wrong about anything.

Because if you knew anything about it, you'd know that Jesus wasn't around when Elijah was called up in a chariot of fire to Heaven, one of the few who have lived to not encounter death. So I guess he's in Hell according to you, since ya know, Jesus hadn't come yet?

What you fail to realize is despite the fact that Jesus had not come as a man, He was there from the very beginning. The sacrifices that were made before Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice were that of animals, and that's something that goes back far more than 6,000 years, in fact the Bible doesn't say anything about this 6,000 year number people keep spouting off.

I feel really bad for you.

Go read the book, before you try to discount it. That'd be like me not reading a theory and trying to disprove it. You don't even know what it says, or what it talks about. Just because you know some "Christians" doesn't mean anything.

You shouldn't be so mad.

Actually I'm from a deeply religious family, I've been to church hundreds if not thousands of times, I've read the bible and thought my way out of it. So go fuck yourself with your false accusations.

I do encourage everyone to read the bible, nothing will turn you into an atheist faster.

[Asher]

Being a Christian has nothing to do with religion. That's what I think people have the hardest time separating.

That was just a little tid bit of information about myself so people would have an idea of where I was coming from. I was not intending that to be for all religions.

[Asher]

Hate to break it to you but there's never been a time when religion wasn't used to control people.

And just because you don't have an opinion either way doesn't make those of us more sure in our beliefs liars.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd05KELsI/AAAAAAAAAEE/1lMTIPPryac/1_light%5B19%5D.png?imgmax=800
http://christophersisk.com/dawkins-belief-scale-images/
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd1PBC-tI/AAAAAAAAAEI/rafV5BzpqD8/2_light%5B4%5D.png?imgmax=800
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd1fdoKnI/AAAAAAAAAEM/EjqjYS3tnzw/3_light%5B4%5D.png?imgmax=800
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd1zXWdLI/AAAAAAAAAEQ/XTEvpZgdvpQ/4_light%5B8%5D.png?imgmax=800
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd2HIh8VI/AAAAAAAAAEU/_tAVuDlMC50/5_light%5B4%5D.png?imgmax=800
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd2cWJU6I/AAAAAAAAAEY/9PxB19MHmNA/6_light%5B10%5D.png?imgmax=800
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_5eJbZGvunJA/Svxd25zdyTI/AAAAAAAAAEc/hbZJb1tajU8/7_light%5B12%5D.png?imgmax=800

Now if you're saying #1 and #7 cannot possibly know for sure, then I agree with you.

You don't need to "break" anything to me I am already aware of this but I was saying that this is the point in my life when I realized this.

I am saying #1 and #7 cannot possibly know for sure, which is probably why you missed me saying "I am ok with saying that I do not know and anyone who says they do know is lying."

You can believe whatever you want but you do not know anything for sure because neither has been proven.

Asher

[Beauregard]

Ok here's something I know. If we were created like the bible tells us our creator is a fucking moron because he gave us an appendix we don't need.

[Dunes]

So you know where Im coming from, I probably fall around a #5 on that chart.

Premise: Religion is good.

Let me explain my take on it, despite the fact that I lean agnostic.

Religion came about for several reasons, to name a few at a high level:
-1- As a means of explaining the (then currently) unexplainable
-2- As a means of providing hope for the downtrodden
-3- As an additional societal norm for group cohesion
-4- As a means of providing justification for ones actions and as a means of control (dont take a offence at this one yet; see below)


So a bit more detail before I explain my premise.

-1- In an era with even basic mathematics did not exist, you can rest assured that there was a lot that was unexplainable. As societies grew, so did our understanding of the world, and more probable explanations came to be. This might in part explain the theological distillation from gods of everything (thunder, war, the hearth, the etc etc) down to "God", as subject matter for each of those other Gods was no longer unexplainable. Every new scientific/technical discovery of worldly significance deals another blow to religion.

-2- In an era when even basic medical care did not exist or was out of reach of most, religion provided some sense of hope. "Yes, my existence is miserable right now, but someday I will be rewarded for my faith with everything my that my I (my culture) hold dear." Also, "Yes, you may be able to knock down my shanty and steal my possessions, but someday, I will be rewarded for my faith and you will get what is coming to you." As medical care has improved and become more readily available, again, religion is replaced in the hearts of men (and women) by more worldly concerns.

-3- In an era when people were still being eaten by lions and threatened by invading forces, group cohesion and identity were critical. Group cohesion formed cultures, which in turn formed towns, cities, and nations of similarly minded people. Nations did tend to use religion (-4-) as a means of control, but this never would have worked if the people hadnt already adopted their form of religion as a societal norm. Ever has religion played a part in the rise and fall of empires. I will say this, though - religion is becoming less and less a motivator for war than economics. Economics, however, have always played a part in war.

-4- Persona A, "Why did you do that?" Person B, "Because its the right thing to do." This is a broad one, because it encompasses not only our moral "duties" but also our more proactive decision making processes (going to Church, volunteering at a food bank, etc). Unfortunately, this is also the one that gets us in trouble because it is so action-oriented. Person A, "Why are you going to blow yourself up in a highly populated location?" Person B, "because (someone told me that) its the right thing to do." Again, some conflict still ensues due to religion, but it is becoming increasingly less of a motivator despite media attention on the nut job suicide bombers.

So yes, there are pro's and cons to religion, and yes, a post in a forum cant even scratch the tip of the subject. Nevertheless, my premise that religion is good stands true in my mind. What other means is there of making sure that a person does the right thing unless its fear of divine retribution? Also, dont even try to make the argument of "well, what is 'the right thing'?" I think its safe to say that the right thing means not killing the kid that stole your lunch money just because you wont get caught (and other such examples). This simple rule of not killing unecessarily, not stealing, helping others when in need, and basically most of the 10 Commandments, is what keeps our ever growing, hedonistic, and entitled populations from destroying each other completely. Sure, thats a "sky is falling" scenario, but I personally would hate to see a world where religion does not, and never did exist. Sure

[corradojeff]

I consider myself Agnostic. I grew up Catholic and converted (forced to convert) to Christianity when my parents split. When I got older I studied theology and the more I read the more I realized how Agnostic I actually was.

I think an important point is being missed.

There is no "fact" that god exists and there is no "fact" that he doesn’t exist but there is the undeniable truth that the idea of a god does affect the people who believe. Sometimes that effect is negative and other times its positive but it is there.

No, I don’t believe there is a god in a corporeal sense but I do believe that the idea of a god exists in people and that it has a very real and sometimes tangible effect on that person and the people around them.

P.S. I am not talking about "God" or "The God" I am referring to a god. Any sort of god that anyone believes in.

[Daldolma]

We explain our existence by a combination of the anthropic principle and Darwin's principle of natural selection. That combination provides a complete and deeply satisfying explanation for everything that we see and know. Not only is the god hypothesis unnecessary. It is spectacularly unparsimonious. Not only do we need no God to explain the universe and life. God stands out in the universe as the most glaring of all superfluous sore thumbs.

Also, there is evidence of why Our universe does not require a God to function (aka, evidence). Newtonian Laws explain phenomenons that were only explained through metaphors and stories based on God. Physics in general as solved many mysteries that we once chalked up to just "God's work". Evolution is another huge scientific understanding that further shows that God was not required to have animals live and change. Let's not also forget genetics and astronomy that have played their roles. You don't here people explaining that the Sky is blue because it's God's favorite color, or that we have droughts because he's angry with us. No, it is explained in ways humans understand, and that require no divine intervention.

What really confuses me is that you some how equate life outside of this planet to a divine entity that is omnipotent and omission. We are proof that it is capable to have life on a planet, why would we think that life couldn't happen any where else? We have an example of why it's plausible that there can be life elsewhere, we don't, however, have an example of super natural beings that have existed to postulate the existence of other divine creatures.

But it's ok, you're just like any other typical Theist. No real argument, just ad homniems and absurd, invalid logic. But thanks for being a condescending dick.

1 - If you believe that any of the current theories regarding the origins and development of life on Earth provide a "deeply satisfying explanation" for everything we see and know, you're an idiot or you're ignorant -- there's no middle ground. Even evolution, the most basic and most substantiated theory for how life has developed, is very much incomplete. Read: not deeply satisfying. And that doesn't even begin to touch upon the primordial ooze origins, which is essentially guesswork. Not that it matters. What you seemingly can't wrap your head around is that there's no zero-sum argument regarding science and religion. It's perfectly acceptable for the physical laws of the universe to govern all development on Earth. The question is how were these laws created? How was the universe created? Everything observable to humanity has a beginning and an end: what was the beginning of the universe? If you say a primeval atom, as attested in the Big Bang Theory, what makes you any more certain than someone who says a sentient Creator? Answer: nothing. Any discussion of the origin of the universe is, by definition, a *highly* unproven theory based as much on guesswork as anything else. On a universal scale, we're smaller than ants. We can adequately describe the universe's origins insofar as an ant can adequately describe Earth's origins. Read: not at all.

2 - You continue to cite the disproval of old beliefs of Divine Intervention as evidence that God doesn't exist. Like I stated above, it's equivalent to someone "disproving" the existence of extraterrestrial life by showing Billy Bob that the UFO in his backyard is a firefly. You're not disproving the existence of extraterrestrial life: you're proving that the "UFO" is a firefly, and that Billy is an idiot. Nothing more, nothing less.

3 - And your last paragraph of debate just proves how in over your head you are -- even without remarking upon the difference between "omission" and "omniscient", which I assume is what you meant. You say, "We are proof that it is possible to have life on a planet. Why wouldn't we think it could happen anywhere else?" I say we are proof of the creative powers of sentient beings. Why couldn't that explain the creation of the universe? Mankind is capable of creating life -- we've done it. We're capable of creating or re-creating many of the elements and conditions of our universe. If the existence of mankind depended upon it, we could probably even create a new "planet" -- of course it would be mechanic, not organic, but that's not really the point. So who's to say that an infinitely more advanced sentient Being is not responsible for the creation of the universe as we know it? It's far from objective fact, but it's just as valid as a belief in a primeval atom. And it's just as grounded in observable evidence as the notion that "We are evidence of life on a planet, so there's life on a planet elsewhere." Hell, we can knock off both of these birds with one stone -- who's to say that this life on another planet isn't a hyper-advanced species that forged the universe, including its physical properties, while creating all life as they saw fit? There you go -- you've got sentient Creator and extraterrestrial life all wrapped up in one theory, and it's not any less absurd than the notion of a primeval atom. And it's all based on a modicum of observable evidence and a heap of guesswork.

[Beauregard]

So you know where Im coming from, I probably fall around a #5 on that chart.

Premise: Religion is good.

Let me explain my take on it, despite the fact that I lean agnostic.

Religion came about for several reasons, to name a few at a high level:
-1- As a means of explaining the (then currently) unexplainable
-2- As a means of providing hope for the downtrodden
-3- As an additional societal norm for group cohesion
-4- As a means of providing justification for ones actions and as a means of control (dont take a offence at this one yet; see below)


So a bit more detail before I explain my premise.

-1- In an era with even basic mathematics did not exist, you can rest assured that there was a lot that was unexplainable. As societies grew, so did our understanding of the world, and more probable explanations came to be. This might in part explain the theological distillation from gods of everything (thunder, war, the hearth, the etc etc) down to "God", as subject matter for each of those other Gods was no longer unexplainable. Every new scientific/technical discovery of worldly significance deals another blow to religion.

-2- In an era when even basic medical care did not exist or was out of reach of most, religion provided some sense of hope. "Yes, my existence is miserable right now, but someday I will be rewarded for my faith with everything my that my I (my culture) hold dear." Also, "Yes, you may be able to knock down my shanty and steal my possessions, but someday, I will be rewarded for my faith and you will get what is coming to you." As medical care has improved and become more readily available, again, religion is replaced in the hearts of men (and women) by more worldly concerns.

-3- In an era when people were still being eaten by lions and threatened by invading forces, group cohesion and identity were critical. Group cohesion formed cultures, which in turn formed towns, cities, and nations of similarly minded people. Nations did tend to use religion (-4-) as a means of control, but this never would have worked if the people hadnt already adopted their form of religion as a societal norm. Ever has religion played a part in the rise and fall of empires. I will say this, though - religion is becoming less and less a motivator for war than economics. Economics, however, have always played a part in war.

-4- Persona A, "Why did you do that?" Person B, "Because its the right thing to do." This is a broad one, because it encompasses not only our moral "duties" but also our more proactive decision making processes (going to Church, volunteering at a food bank, etc). Unfortunately, this is also the one that gets us in trouble because it is so action-oriented. Person A, "Why are you going to blow yourself up in a highly populated location?" Person B, "because (someone told me that) its the right thing to do." Again, some conflict still ensues due to religion, but it is becoming increasingly less of a motivator despite media attention on the nut job suicide bombers.

So yes, there are pro's and cons to religion, and yes, a post in a forum cant even scratch the tip of the subject. Nevertheless, my premise that religion is good stands true in my mind. What other means is there of making sure that a person does the right thing unless its fear of divine retribution? Also, dont even try to make the argument of "well, what is 'the right thing'?" I think its safe to say that the right thing means not killing the kid that stole your lunch money just because you wont get caught (and other such examples). This simple rule of not killing unecessarily, not stealing, helping others when in need, and basically most of the 10 Commandments, is what keeps our ever growing, hedonistic, and entitled populations from destroying each other completely. Sure, thats a "sky is falling" scenario, but I personally would hate to see a world where religion does not, and never did exist. Sure

Agreed completely except the premise that religion is good. I would argue it used to be good, and has outlived its purpose. We have science now.

Religion was our first attempt at damn near everything. Philosophy, Medicine, Astronomy, Morality, etc. We have transcended religion in every aspect.

Example of inferior religious morality - god has a clear stance on homosexuality, yet we now know they are born that way and we shouldn't discriminate against them because they aren't sinning. So we have 2 camps in America that hold the two different opinions, where it shouldn't even be an issue.

[Asher]

Ok here's something I know. If we were created like the bible tells us our creator is a fucking moron because he gave us an appendix we don't need.

How do you know that the appendix has no use? As far as science is concerned now it has no function and it is not known what its purpose is but that is not to say it doesn't have one. Maybe time will tell.

Asher

[Molitoth]

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/r6w2M50_Xdk" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

[Beauregard]

How do you know that the appendix has no use? As far as science is concerned now it has no function and it is not known what its purpose is but that is not to say it doesn't have one. Maybe time will tell.

Asher

Umm as far as science is concerned we used it hundreds of thousands of years ago to process the high amount of dirt in our diet.

[corradojeff]

What other means is there of making sure that a person does the right thing unless its fear of divine retribution?

Lot of people are stating things similar to the above in this thread. Since you are a self proclaimed "5" on the scale I will ask you: When you see a brick of money sitting on a counter at a bank (I don’t know just roll with it) so you think to yourself "I shouldn't steal that or god will punish me"?

When my morals are tested the first thing I usually think is "I don't want to go to fucking jail". The argument has been made that the laws have been formed with a deep base in religion, and that very well may be, but the fact remains that if you’re caught the law with fuck you in the ass with the largest dildo it can find and that is what is scary.

[Asher]

Umm as far as science is concerned we used it hundreds of thousands of years ago to process the high amount of dirt in our diet.

I learned something knew today. I had always been told it had no purpose. :)

Asher

[Beauregard]

Lot of people are stating things similar to the above in this thread. Since you are a self proclaimed "5" on the scale I will ask you: When you see a brick of money sitting on a counter at a bank (I don’t know just roll with it) so you think to yourself "I shouldn't steal that or god will punish me"?

When my morals are tested the first thing I usually think is "I don't want to go to fucking jail". The argument has been made that the laws have been formed with a deep base in religion, and that very well may be, but the fact remains that if you’re caught the law with fuck you in the ass with the largest dildo it can find and that is what is scary.

Morality is innate. We don't need punishment and reward to justify our behaviour. There are fine reasons for humanity to develop morality in an evolutionary perspective.

[Asher]

There is no "fact" that god exists and there is no "fact" that he doesn’t exist but there is the undeniable truth that the idea of a god does affect the people who believe. Sometimes that effect is negative and other times its positive but it is there.

While I agree it does serve a good purpose, I think it is sad that we need this crutch to be good.

I consider myself a kind and good person even though I have no religious affiliation. I don't like how I am considered evil because I am agnostic by some people who are religious.

Like Beauregard says, I would like to see religion done away with. I am sure over time it will happen. More and more people are turning to Atheism and Agnosticism. Democracies always move left. The US is just moving a bit slower than other western nations.

People shouldn't need to believe in a God to be good. Of all our human qualities, I think this depresses me most of all.

Asher

[corradojeff]

While I agree it does serve a good purpose, I think it is sad that we need this crutch to be good.

I consider myself a kind and good person even though I have no religious affiliation. I don't like how I am considered evil because I am agnostic by some people who are religious.

Like Beauregard says, I would like to see religion done away with. I am sure over time it will happen. More and more people are turning to Atheism and Agnosticism. Democracies always move left. The US is just moving a bit slower than other western nations.

People shouldn't need to believe in a God to be good. Of all our human qualities, I think this depresses me most of all.

Asher

I fully agree and I should have made it clear in my post. I was speaking about the people who have a belief in a god not the people who don't. The only point the people who don't believe should have taken away is that because the idea exists, makes it real in the sense that it nudges people in certain directions.

I don't believe our lack of religion should make us "black sheep". It is hypocritical of religious people to judge our non religion, but most do.

[Dunes]

Agreed completely except the premise that religion is good. I would argue it used to be good, and has outlived its purpose. We have science now.


My thing is this; until we have a bonafide big brother that can monitor what every being on the planet is doing (or atleast persons of interest) in real time, fear of God is going to keep the religious segment of society straight (for the most part).

For myself and others that are borderline agnostic all the way to atheistic, its fear of getting caught. But what if you KNOW your not going to get caught? What if you find yourself starving to death in the middle of the desert (roll with me here), and all you have is a knife and a flask of water. Youve been wandering this desert for days, and your without a doubt about to starve to death. Then you come across a solitary old hermit with a backpack of food. You beg, you plead, you strut around aggressively, but still he will not give you his bread crumbs. Whats to stop you from knocking the old man out and boosting his food but fear of divine retribution?

I imagine we would all deal with this differently. Im borderline, so rather than say "God will take care of me, I have no fear." (a 1) or "Screw you old man, Im taking your food because Im near death and no one will ever know." (a 7), I would probably do my absolutely best to befriend the old man, follow him, try to learn how/where he gets his food, and, worse case scenario hope (not to God; more likely hope based on odds) that he takes pity on me and shares a bit of food. The whole question of "Is my life more important than his?" wouldnt come up at all. It would be more likely, "Whats it going to take for me to get out of this damned desert short of killing this man, or dooming him to certain death." Fine line

[quellren]

You don't have to allow them to share with you, you can simply not answer the door.


That's not really the point. The point is it's socially acceptable for, lets hypothetically say, someone to knock on my door on a Saturday morning and immediately launch into a 'Have you invited Jesus into your life?' speech, yet if I were to knock on a door and ask 'Have you accepted that you stand here not due to a magic man in the sky willing it, but through millions of years of refinement and adaptation of genetic material?', I'd at least be cursed at and the door slammed in my face. A few houses later, I'd probably have the Po-Po circling the block looking for me.

Where in the Bible does it claim the Earth is 6,000 years old? Find it, bring it back to me...I dare you to read it cover-to-cover and show me where it says the Earth is only 6,000 years old.
I actually have read the Bible, cover to cover. I like it. It has MANY MANY good lessons for life. Pretty much every one is allegorical.
As for the Earth being 6000 years old: It's pretty well accepted by creationists. Unless the Earth's rotation, and thus length of days, months and years has DRASTICALLY changed between the moment of 'creation' and the beginning of recorded history, it's fairly easy to figure out. God created 'The heavens and the earth on day 1. Adam was created on day 6. So the 'earth' is roughly one week older than people and animals. Assuming that unless otherwise specified (Methuselah, Noah, and a few other notables) the lifespan of a person was similar to now, lets say 80-100 years, all one has to do is count the generations laid out in the early books of the Old Testament. That outlines about 1500 years. Then we just have to look at biblical figures that aren't directly tied to lineage...King Herod, for example. There are other, non-religious texts that corroborate his birth and death. That places him chronologically in time, and also in context to other figures in the Bible.

Your move, Holy man.

[Harrison]

http://www.funonthenet.in/images/stories/forwards/scale%20of%20universe/Scale-Universe-Hubble-Ultra-Deep-Field.jpg

This is a photograph of a very small region of our night sky ( the large picture of all these galaxies are all found within that red box in the lower hand corner). In this photo is over thousands of galaxies.

I'm trying to paint a picture of how obscenely fast and magnificent the universe is, and when you see it this way, you really can't doubt that there IS life else where, be it single cell organisms or intelligent beings.

Now who comes off as the arrogant one? The Atheist who believes it is very plausible there is life else where, or the Theist who, despite knowing how vast and amazing this universe is, still think we are SO special and that "God" created us, and all the animals, on just one rock in a very AVERAGE galaxy in a small solar system.

Lol where does it say that if you believe in a God or Gods that you have to believe we are the only intelligent life in all of existence?

Refer back to the straw man post. You're inventing an argument to refute because you lack the capability to do so with the real argument.

You are so fucking dumb because of that kind of "debate" you're attempting.

It's not because you're an atheist.
It's not because we can't put a hole into your feeble "arguments".
It's because you are quite literally and simply, a moron.

[Henini]

You've obviously never read it, so are therefore ignorant, so seriously stop spewing your propaganda all over the forums seriously dude. You've never been more wrong about anything.

Because if you knew anything about it, you'd know that Jesus wasn't around when Elijah was called up in a chariot of fire to Heaven, one of the few who have lived to not encounter death. So I guess he's in Hell according to you, since ya know, Jesus hadn't come yet?



he went to heaven alive riding a chariot of fire? and that's the truth right?

And you believe in magic too? do you believe Stanta is real as well?
How about dragons?

and you are here debating to everyone about god and telling us not to spew our blasphemy on internet. and act all high and mighty.

You are a good example of people who give religions a bad name.

Yes, before the "church" existed, there was humanity, humanity has been around for a lot longer then any religion.
Religion hasn't even been around for a significant amount of time... well Christianism anyways... 2000 years?

What about all the Hindu gods? if you believe in those instead of Jesus and his father, do you still go to hell? or Budah? or what if I start my own cult/religion? (sorry for boggling your mind there with more blasphemy I should know there is only one true god)

Also, if god didn't intend for the church to act the way they do "gime money or go to hell, ohh and little boys are accepted to" does this mean that all churchmen will go to hell?

I can totally picture you telling the pope he will go to hell! (sry more blasphemy)

In conclusion, you can always turn around and say "but you have no proof god doesn't exist"

That will always be true.
But it's well documented trough out history that your religion is a load of crap and that it's main purpose has been to control and oppress people! (and to get money and little boys).


Have your self a very nice day!

[maegi]

Hi my name is Chtutu and I like arguing about stupid shit on emulated everquest forums cause I aint got shit to do IRL

^^^^
THIS

[Henini]

Agreed completely except the premise that religion is good. I would argue it used to be good, and has outlived its purpose. We have science now.

Religion was our first attempt at damn near everything. Philosophy, Medicine, Astronomy, Morality, etc. We have transcended religion in every aspect.

Example of inferior religious morality - god has a clear stance on homosexuality, yet we now know they are born that way and we shouldn't discriminate against them because they aren't sinning. So we have 2 camps in America that hold the two different opinions, where it shouldn't even be an issue.

What are you talking about, religion pretty much stopped evolution for a (relatively speaking) long time.

[chtulu]

Lol where does it say that if you believe in a God or Gods that you have to believe we are the only intelligent life in all of existence?

Refer back to the straw man post. You're inventing an argument to refute because you lack the capability to do so with the real argument.

You are so fucking dumb because of that kind of "debate" you're attempting.

It's not because you're an atheist.
It's not because we can't put a hole into your feeble "arguments".
It's because you are quite literally and simply, a moron.

You try so hard. I respect you, though. You're the only red neck that at least TRIES to convey that they know what a fallacy is.


Why would God create such a vast universe if it is only for those on the planet Earth? What purpose does the universe hold? Frankly, God has not revealed all the answers, but he has shared at least some of the reasons:

* LIGHT, TIME-KEEPING AND NAVIGATION. Scripture tells us that God created the Sun, Moon and stars to give light (brightening the utter darkness of the night sky) and to assist mankind (Genesis 1:14-15, etc.). That's right, one of the reasons that God made the Moon, solar system and stars was to provide a way for us to distinguish the passage of time (days, months and years) and predict the coming of seasons. Without these heavenly bodies, the job of keeping time and navigation would have been far more difficult. We learn from history that from the earliest days, ancient peoples used the movement of stars in producing their calendars and finding their way across great distances, just as God designed from the beginning. It may be that even some migrating birds make use of the constellations.
*

GLORIFYING THE CREATOR. Another purpose for the myriad of stars is to bring glory to God—focusing man's attention on the Creator's awesome power and greatness. Psalm 19:1 states,

“The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.”

The vastness of the universe is a tremendous expression of God's might and power. God is greater than we could ever imagine, even greater that His spectacular creation, the universe. Psalm 8:1,3,9 states,

“O Lord, our Lord, How majestic is Thy name in all the earth, Who hast displayed Thy splendor above the heavens! …When I consider Thy heavens, the work of Thy fingers, The moon and the stars, which Thou has ordained; …O Lord, our Lord, How majestic is Thy name in all the earth!”

When we consider the vastness of the universe, let us meditate upon the glory of God, not on dreaming up fantasies of alien beings.

The Bible does not teach that intelligent life exists elsewhere in our universe. Although our all-powerful God could have created such life had He desired, it seems rather obvious from Scripture that He did not. The timetable for this present universe is measured by God's dealings with us. It appears that God has created the human race, on the planet called Earth, as the sole beneficiary of His fellowship. This fellowship is of such a unique design that we are told that God's only true extra-terrestrial creations—angels—are eager to observe it in action. It is our privilege to be the center of attention in our vast and wonder-filled universe.

The bible states that God made the universe to show his power and to give us something to look at in the night sky. Besides, other life on other planets would contradict the bible. You don't see anywhere in the bible saying that he also made other things in the universe on his free time.

The ironic part is that you try so hard to sound intelligent; yet you continue to put your foot in your mouth when you start insulting and using ad hominems. Maybe you should look what that is, up.

[Harrison]

You try so hard. I respect you, though. You're the only red neck that at least TRIES to convey that they know what a fallacy is.


Why would God create such a vast universe if it is only for those on the planet Earth? What purpose does the universe hold? Frankly, God has not revealed all the answers, but he has shared at least some of the reasons:

* LIGHT, TIME-KEEPING AND NAVIGATION. Scripture tells us that God created the Sun, Moon and stars to give light (brightening the utter darkness of the night sky) and to assist mankind (Genesis 1:14-15, etc.). That's right, one of the reasons that God made the Moon, solar system and stars was to provide a way for us to distinguish the passage of time (days, months and years) and predict the coming of seasons. Without these heavenly bodies, the job of keeping time and navigation would have been far more difficult. We learn from history that from the earliest days, ancient peoples used the movement of stars in producing their calendars and finding their way across great distances, just as God designed from the beginning. It may be that even some migrating birds make use of the constellations.
*

GLORIFYING THE CREATOR. Another purpose for the myriad of stars is to bring glory to God—focusing man's attention on the Creator's awesome power and greatness. Psalm 19:1 states,

“The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.”

The vastness of the universe is a tremendous expression of God's might and power. God is greater than we could ever imagine, even greater that His spectacular creation, the universe. Psalm 8:1,3,9 states,

“O Lord, our Lord, How majestic is Thy name in all the earth, Who hast displayed Thy splendor above the heavens! …When I consider Thy heavens, the work of Thy fingers, The moon and the stars, which Thou has ordained; …O Lord, our Lord, How majestic is Thy name in all the earth!”

When we consider the vastness of the universe, let us meditate upon the glory of God, not on dreaming up fantasies of alien beings.

The Bible does not teach that intelligent life exists elsewhere in our universe. Although our all-powerful God could have created such life had He desired, it seems rather obvious from Scripture that He did not. The timetable for this present universe is measured by God's dealings with us. It appears that God has created the human race, on the planet called Earth, as the sole beneficiary of His fellowship. This fellowship is of such a unique design that we are told that God's only true extra-terrestrial creations—angels—are eager to observe it in action. It is our privilege to be the center of attention in our vast and wonder-filled universe.

The bible states that God made the universe to show his power and to give us something to look at in the night sky. Besides, other life on other planets would contradict the bible. You don't see anywhere in the bible saying that he also made other things in the universe on his free time.

The ironic part is that you try so hard to sound intelligent; yet you continue to put your foot in your mouth when you start insulting and using ad hominems. Maybe you should look what that is, up.

That's a lot of words that didn't answer what I said.

Where does it say that if a person believes in a God or Gods that they are required to also believe that we are the only intelligent life in the whole of existence?

Answer it.

Don't fucking dodge it with a bunch of quotes that you don't understand nor have the faculties to begin to from a book you've never read.

Don't dodge it with a youtube video.

Don't dodge it with a cute picture that furthers the proof you're as dumb as you appear to be.

[chtulu]

That's a lot of words that didn't answer what I said.

Where does it say that if a person believes in a God or Gods that they are required to also believe that we are the only intelligent life in the whole of existence?

Answer it.

Don't fucking dodge it with a bunch of quotes that you don't understand nor have the faculties to begin to from a book you've never read.

Don't dodge it with a youtube video.

Don't dodge it with a cute picture that furthers the proof you're as dumb as you appear to be.


All the major religions have a book that is supposed to be written by God. Those religions require you to obey and take these books as the word of God. If these books state that the universe was made by God to prove his powers and give us something to talk about, then any self-proclaimed Theist would take the word in the bible (or any other religion's book) as the truth and would not try to postulate something different, because that would be against what "God" said; which is, of course, blasphemy,

[Misto]

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2945/user142031pic8329125795.gif

[chtulu]

That's a lot of words that didn't answer what I said.

Where does it say that if a person believes in a God or Gods that they are required to also believe that we are the only intelligent life in the whole of existence?

Answer it.

Don't fucking dodge it with a bunch of quotes that you don't understand nor have the faculties to begin to from a book you've never read.

Don't dodge it with a youtube video.

Don't dodge it with a cute picture that furthers the proof you're as dumb as you appear to be.

Anyone else thinks Bill O'Riley is trolling the p99 forums?

[chtulu]

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2945/user142031pic8329125795.gif

God forbid someone makes a thread about something that causes debate other than 2 guilds in a game causing drama or poopsocking.

[Misto]

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2945/user142031pic8329125795.gif

[Misto]

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2945/user142031pic8329125795.gif

[Harrison]

All the major religions have a book that is supposed to be written by God. Those religions require you to obey and take these books as the word of God. If these books state that the universe was made by God to prove his powers and give us something to talk about, then any self-proclaimed Theist would take the word in the bible (or any other religion's book) as the truth and would not try to postulate something different, because that would be against what "God" said; which is, of course, blasphemy,

You are so dumb that it's readily apparent the simple question I am presenting you boggles your frail closed mind.

Don't tell me about a specific religion or religions' books.

Why does belief in a God or Gods have to be mutually exclusive with science in any way? (I even got more specific for you this time.)

Religions A, B, and C are irrelevant. Don't start quoting their bullshit in response. I want an answer from you.

[chtulu]

You are so dumb that it's readily apparent the simple question I am presenting you boggles your frail closed mind.

Don't tell me about a specific religion or religions' books.

Why does belief in a God or Gods have to be mutually exclusive with science in any way? (I even got more specific for you this time.)

Religions A, B, and C are irrelevant. Don't start quoting their bullshit in response. I want an answer from you.


They are exclusive because science has contradicted almost everything that people have said God is responsible for (evolution, how the universe came to be, homosexuality, morality, etc).

You can't have your cake and eat it too, sir. How about you explain why you think the two are even remotely compatible?

[quellren]

Ok, Harrison. Let's step away from the mudslinging and name calling. You seem to champion the believer side of the discussion here so,
I have an honest, straightforward question to ask, one I've never been able to get a satisfactory answer to:

According to Christian doctrine (with much paraphrasing) 2000-odd years ago, God looked upon the world and saw that the race of man needed to pull their collective heads out of their asses and get right. So he sends a prophet to spread the word. It begins with the Virgin birth of Jesus. Jesus, according to the Bible, performs many miraculous, unexplainable feats and multitudes of people see the light, and follow these teachings. In a covanent with God, Jesus dies, and thus took one for the 'team' absolving us of all the bad things people did to each other.

So here's my question: It's pretty apparent to me that we've strayed back onto that road we were on Pre-Jesus. If God loves me, unconditionally, and I can't be to blame for being the imperfect heathen I am,
Why doesn't God do it again? Send another Jesus. Not the prophesized Jesus to collect the flock of believers, Send him to re-prove that God exists and loves us all. Feed the crowd at the superbowl with just the bread in his pocket, Walk into a cancer ward and eradicate the disease. Show me God is still interested. A two century old book recounting the stuff that went down (sometimes 3rd hand, and decades after it happened) written by MEN isn't selling the promise anymore.


What does your unshakable faith say about the fact that a sizeable portion of the Bible relates direct accounts of interaction with 'The Almighty' and his angels. Everything from Abraham being told by God himself to kill Issac, to Moses receiving the Ten Commandments written DIRECTLY by God's finger. Theres a butt-load of divine interaction right up until Jesus and his death. And then it stops. Cold Turkey.


Why? Why no more?
The standard answer I get is 'Faith'. The believers' catch-all. You gotta just believe that it happened. Why do I just have to believe? This is met with: The believers go to Heaven.
Heaven isn't actual real estate. There isn't a Fire Code that limits occupancy. Why can't everyone go?
If God really loves me, unconditionally, more than I can imagine, why doesn't he:
A) forgive my ignorance and take me anyway?
or better yet
B) PROVE HE EXISTS and let me fall to my knees in abject humble apology for doubting?

Give me something other than that sunday-school 'faith' rhetoric that I've heard for 20 years.

[Beauregard]

Science and Religion hold different facts to be true. Therefore they are at odds. Dogma (specifically religious dogma) has always been an established obstacle of science.

"If the religious worldview is correct then science is susceptible to supernatural modification and rendered absurd, or scientific worldview is correct and most people are profoundly confused about the nature of reality, confounded by irrational hopes and fears, and tending to waste precious time and attention with often tragic results. "
-Sam Harris

[Harrison]

Ok, Harrison. Let's step away from the mudslinging and name calling. You seem to champion the believer side of the discussion here so,
I have an honest, straightforward question to ask, one I've never been able to get a satisfactory answer to:

According to Christian doctrine (with much paraphrasing) 2000-odd years ago, God looked upon the world and saw that the race of man needed to pull their collective heads out of their asses and get right. So he sends a prophet to spread the word. It begins with the Virgin birth of Jesus. Jesus, according to the Bible, performs many miraculous, unexplainable feats and multitudes of people see the light, and follow these teachings. In a covanent with God, Jesus dies, and thus took one for the 'team' absolving us of all the bad things people did to each other.

So here's my question: It's pretty apparent to me that we've strayed back onto that road we were on Pre-Jesus. If God loves me, unconditionally, and I can't be to blame for being the imperfect heathen I am,
Why doesn't God do it again? Send another Jesus. Not the prophesized Jesus to collect the flock of believers, Send him to re-prove that God exists and loves us all. Feed the crowd at the superbowl with just the bread in his pocket, Walk into a cancer ward and eradicate the disease. Show me God is still interested. A two century old book recounting the stuff that went down (sometimes 3rd hand, and decades after it happened) written by MEN isn't selling the promise anymore.


What does your unshakable faith say about the fact that a sizeable portion of the Bible relates direct accounts of interaction with 'The Almighty' and his angels. Everything from Abraham being told by God himself to kill Issac, to Moses receiving the Ten Commandments written DIRECTLY by God's finger. Theres a butt-load of divine interaction right up until Jesus and his death. And then it stops. Cold Turkey.


Why? Why no more?
The standard answer I get is 'Faith'. The believers' catch-all. You gotta just believe that it happened. Why do I just have to believe? This is met with: The believers go to Heaven.
Heaven isn't actual real estate. There isn't a Fire Code that limits occupancy. Why can't everyone go?
If God really loves me, unconditionally, more than I can imagine, why doesn't he:
A) forgive my ignorance and take me anyway?
or better yet
B) PROVE HE EXISTS and let me fall to my knees in abject humble apology for doubting?

Give me something other than that sunday-school 'faith' rhetoric that I've heard for 20 years.

I am not Christian in any way, shape, or form. I can't answer these questions for you. I don't believe any of that, and primarily for the same reasons most atheists don't.

I don't put faith into the words of man. My experiences lead me to believe that man is full of shit and out for himself more often than not. I won't put stock into words written by man now, then, or in the future, at face value concerning metaphysics.

The massive hump you guys can't seem to get over is that Christianity isn't the only belief out there. You discount all ideas concerning a God simply because you think the Bible is bullshit. (A book written by men, mind you.)

[chtulu]

Ok, Harrison. Let's step away from the mudslinging and name calling. You seem to champion the believer side of the discussion here so,
I have an honest, straightforward question to ask, one I've never been able to get a satisfactory answer to:

According to Christian doctrine (with much paraphrasing) 2000-odd years ago, God looked upon the world and saw that the race of man needed to pull their collective heads out of their asses and get right. So he sends a prophet to spread the word. It begins with the Virgin birth of Jesus. Jesus, according to the Bible, performs many miraculous, unexplainable feats and multitudes of people see the light, and follow these teachings. In a covanent with God, Jesus dies, and thus took one for the 'team' absolving us of all the bad things people did to each other.

So here's my question: It's pretty apparent to me that we've strayed back onto that road we were on Pre-Jesus. If God loves me, unconditionally, and I can't be to blame for being the imperfect heathen I am,
Why doesn't God do it again? Send another Jesus. Not the prophesized Jesus to collect the flock of believers, Send him to re-prove that God exists and loves us all. Feed the crowd at the superbowl with just the bread in his pocket, Walk into a cancer ward and eradicate the disease. Show me God is still interested. A two century old book recounting the stuff that went down (sometimes 3rd hand, and decades after it happened) written by MEN isn't selling the promise anymore.


What does your unshakable faith say about the fact that a sizeable portion of the Bible relates direct accounts of interaction with 'The Almighty' and his angels. Everything from Abraham being told by God himself to kill Issac, to Moses receiving the Ten Commandments written DIRECTLY by God's finger. Theres a butt-load of divine interaction right up until Jesus and his death. And then it stops. Cold Turkey.


Why? Why no more?
The standard answer I get is 'Faith'. The believers' catch-all. You gotta just believe that it happened. Why do I just have to believe? This is met with: The believers go to Heaven.
Heaven isn't actual real estate. There isn't a Fire Code that limits occupancy. Why can't everyone go?
If God really loves me, unconditionally, more than I can imagine, why doesn't he:
A) forgive my ignorance and take me anyway?
or better yet
B) PROVE HE EXISTS and let me fall to my knees in abject humble apology for doubting?

Give me something other than that sunday-school 'faith' rhetoric that I've heard for 20 years.



I'd be impressed if harrison had a rebuttal that didn't include some sort of insult or name calling.

[Harrison]

I'd be impressed if harrison had a rebuttal that didn't include some sort of insult or name calling.

You'd be impressed if someone showed you the inner workings of a fucking lego castle.

Self-imposed ignorance disgusts me.

You have access to a wealth of knowledge and you're still woefully retarded. You can't even fucking spell in your native language. Children can handle this better than you.

[Misto]

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2945/user142031pic8329125795.gif

[chtulu]

I am not Christian in any way, shape, or form. I can't answer these questions for you. I don't believe any of that, and primarily for the same reasons most atheists don't.

I don't put faith into the words of man. My experiences lead me to believe that man is full of shit and out for himself more often than not. I won't put stock into words written by man now, then, or in the future, at face value concerning metaphysics.

The massive hump you guys can't seem to get over is that Christianity isn't the only belief out there. You discount all ideas concerning a God simply because you think the Bible is bullshit. (A book written by men, mind you.)


Judaism, Islam, Christianity are the major religions now. These religions also have the same God. I discount all ideas of a God because there is no REASON/EVIDENCE to believe in a God. There ARE, however, reasons to abolish religions based on this idea of a God.

[Misto]

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2945/user142031pic8329125795.gif

[chtulu]

You'd be impressed if someone showed you the inner workings of a fucking lego castle.

Self-imposed ignorance disgusts me.

You have access to a wealth of knowledge and you're still woefully retarded. You can't even fucking spell in your native language. Children can handle this better than you.

Exactly. You have no real argument, or even anything worth reading. All you do is resort to childish insults. You don't agree with me so you try to use irrelevant arguments to try to refute what I've said. Please google Ad Hominem.

[Malrubius]

You also believe the world is only 6,000 years old and think evolution is a conspiracy theory against Jesus.

You're not very bright are you?

[chtulu]

You're not very bright are you?

You don't pay attention to doctrine, or have never ever of creationism.

[chtulu]

never ever heard*

[Beauregard]

Just what this thread needs right now.


http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs207.ash2/47067_688136362395_34406027_38428919_8002154_n.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lev5e9XqE71qdmsaho1_500.jpg

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lf7btqM2ta1qdmsaho1_400.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs304.ash2/58410_682504184325_34406027_38303931_1740695_n.jpg

[Deliverator]

For one, just because you believe there IS a god doesn't mean you believe in creationism. Second, your form of atheism is JUST AS MUCH a religion as Catholicism is. You believe in it fervently and want to force everyone else to believe it too. I agree, people who believe in absolute creationism as it is set forth in biblical tomes are ignorant, but I have no more right than you to force them to change their beliefs.

[Beauregard]

For one, just because you believe there IS a god doesn't mean you believe in creationism. Second, your form of atheism is JUST AS MUCH a religion as Catholicism is. You believe in it fervently and want to force everyone else to believe it too. I agree, people who believe in absolute creationism as it is set forth in biblical tomes are ignorant, but I have no more right than you to force them to change their beliefs.

What if one system of beliefs leads to greater well-being for a person, or a society.
Surely a State government ripping out the hearts of human sacrifices for the rain god isn't on par with a secular democracy? Why should all of our beliefs not be rooted in fact and subject to criticism. Or are your ancient partially secularized beliefs above such criticism?

[Humerox]

creationism and evolution can co-exist. (not biblical creationism, mind you)

belief in "god" isn't a mandate to subscribe to religion.

the bible is pure fantasy, and not nearly as interesting as Greek, Roman or even Norse mythos.

the belief that the divine doesn't exist is pure arrogance. however, science will eventually quantify the nature of divinity.



just fanning the fire~

[RocketMoose]

Ok here's something I know. If we were created like the bible tells us our creator is a fucking moron because he gave us an appendix we don't need.

You're a sick sad little man. I award you no points, and my God have mercy on your soul.

It's amazing how much hatred you and some of the others in this thread have. Not only the Athiests but the "Christians" too.

You can tell me to go fuck myself all you want, doesn't make you any more right, in fact, it just proves that "u mad"

It's like when you're trying to have a debate with a child. You explain something, and when they don't have anything to refute it, they call you a "poo poo head"

[Beauregard]

You're a sick sad little man. I award you no points, and my God have mercy on your soul.

It's amazing how much hatred you and some of the others in this thread have. Not only the Athiests but the "Christians" too.

You can tell me to go fuck myself all you want, doesn't make you any more right, in fact, it just proves that "u mad"

It's like when you're trying to have a debate with a child. You explain something, and when they don't have anything to refute it, they call you a "poo poo head"

Except you haven't given me anything I haven't refuted.
Your claim was I'm illiterate, cannot or have not read the bible, and have no grasp of your primitive shitfuck religion. To which I replied that I've read it, study it often, went to church 1000x, I'm from one of the most religious parts of the country, and I'm of a fundamentalist christian family. To which you responded "poopoohead".

[corradojeff]

The bible states that God made the universe to show his power and to give us something to look at in the night sky. Besides, other life on other planets would contradict the bible. You don't see anywhere in the bible saying that he also made other things in the universe on his free time.

I wonder how Theists will change and distort "the word of God" when we do find life on another planet, even a single cell organism. The "church" will come up with some outlandish, previously undiscovered, passage in a book somewhere that explains it.

[Beauregard]

I wonder how Theists will change and distort "the word of God" when we do find life on another planet, even a single cell organism. The "church" will come up with some outlandish, previously undiscovered, passage in a book somewhere that explains it.

New International Version (©1984)
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

New Living Translation (©2007)
In those days, and for some time after, giant Nephilites lived on the earth, for whenever the sons of God had intercourse with women, they gave birth to children who became the heroes and famous warriors of ancient times.

English Standard Version (©2001)
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, as well as later, when the sons of God slept with the daughters of other humans and had children by them. These children were famous long ago.

King James Bible
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown


Aliens fo sho.

[RocketMoose]

I wonder how Theists will change and distort "the word of God" when we do find life on another planet, even a single cell organism. The "church" will come up with some outlandish, previously undiscovered, passage in a book somewhere that explains it.

No where in the Bible does it say that God didn't create other 'life' So this would be irrelevant to disproving Christianity. Neat idea though.

[RocketMoose]

Except you haven't given me anything I haven't refuted.
Your claim was I'm illiterate, cannot or have not read the bible, and have no grasp of your primitive shitfuck religion. To which I replied that I've read it, study it often, went to church 1000x, I'm from one of the most religious parts of the country, and I'm of a fundamentalist christian family. To which you responded "poopoohead".

Actually you're the one who has gone bananas here, I'm perfectly calm. I didn't say you were illiterate, dunno where you're getting that. As far as you having read the Bible, you've obviously not understood something about it, because it's not primitive, and the arguments you bring up don't hold any weight.

I don't care if your family is a fundamentalist Christian family, doesn't mean they've got it all right either, in fact in a lot of ways the fundamentalist Christians are the bigots, and the ones who are always bringing the Fire and Brimstone, and saying how everything is wrong.

Sort of like the whole Christians can't drink thing. The Bible doesn't say that, just says don't drink to get drunk. That refers to gluttony which is a sin, so over drinking, and over eating, both the same thing, gluttony. I know you didn't bring that topic up, just referencing a common misconception amongst fundamentalists.

So you can keep flying off the handle and being mad brew. Hope you get over it, and I'm sorry for however you grew up that made you so angry.

[Beauregard]

Actually you're the one who has gone bananas here, I'm perfectly calm. I didn't say you were illiterate, dunno where you're getting that. As far as you having read the Bible, you've obviously not understood something about it, because it's not primitive, and the arguments you bring up don't hold any weight.

Don't be silly, it's symbolic Iron Age Literature concerning sacrifices and deities. It's obviously primitive superstitious nonsense and folklore, I suppose we could call it shitty mythology at best.

I don't care if your family is a fundamentalist Christian family, doesn't mean they've got it all right either, in fact in a lot of ways the fundamentalist Christians are the bigots, and the ones who are always bringing the Fire and Brimstone, and saying how everything is wrong.
Agreed that they are bigoted and wrong about everything.

Sort of like the whole Christians can't drink thing. The Bible doesn't say that, just says don't drink to get drunk. That refers to gluttony which is a sin, so over drinking, and over eating, both the same thing, gluttony. I know you didn't bring that topic up, just referencing a common misconception amongst fundamentalists.

So you can keep flying off the handle and being mad brew. Hope you get over it, and I'm sorry for however you grew up that made you so angry.

I'm not sure why you think I would get angry over any of this. I piss off religious people for entertainment, and occasionally make some of them think. I said I've read the bible, and study it. You say there is no way that I could have read your awesome book and drawn the conclusions that I have drawn. I think it's possible you're the one that's butthurt over the fact that not everyone wants to believe such garbage, and projecting that emotion onto me.

[nalkin]

My question is, if your going to arbitrarily choose a religion and (if there is a text) arbitrarily interpret the text, why not just make up your own religion that at least lets you have premarital sex on a beanbag.

[Henini]

^^ What he said!

[Pescador]

I am a biomedical engineer and a Christian. I spend my days researching tissue engineering (AHHHH STEM CELLS!!!!!!!!) but I also go to church and read articles on apologetics, and I love a good religious debate (there is ample opportunity for this, given the nature of most people I work with).

I'm sure many heads are exploding right now due to this paradox.

[Deliverator]

Religion exists as an avenue for people to explain things they cannot explain any other way with absolute certainty. Not having a religion you accept that things cannot be explained at this point in time with the information we have now and the technology we have to collect information. How is either way worse than the other? Yes, some people use religion as a tool to persuade people to do their bidding in evil and maniacal ways. People use science in the same way. Why can't you just accept the fact that religion is here to stay, whether it be in the form of Christianity or praying to the sun?

[Beauregard]

I am a biomedical engineer and a Christian. I spend my days researching tissue engineering (AHHHH STEM CELLS!!!!!!!!) but I also go to church and read articles on apologetics, and I love a good religious debate (there is ample opportunity for this, given the nature of most people I work with).

I'm sure many heads are exploding right now due to this paradox.

Yes many of us struggle dealing with the fact that some very bright people cannot see what is so painfully obvious.

Remember that time there were no eyewitnesses to Jesus' execution and no one wrote about it for 60 years because he's just a mythological character made up of folklore from other mythological characters? Good times.

[Henini]

that's two whole generations!

considering we live in the information age and most of us still dont know much about what happened in our grandparents child hood lives ( talking about day to day) I fail to see how anyone can document properly the "Jesus" thing in that era.


But I guess, LotR and Harry Potter are also facts, and not fiction.

and Starwars is true as well, it just happened in a galaxy far far away!

[Kassel]

Starwars is true as well, it just happened in a galaxy far far away!


Give them a break it was a long long time ago

[Alawen Everywhere]

I am a biomedical engineer and a Christian. I spend my days researching tissue engineering (AHHHH STEM CELLS!!!!!!!!) but I also go to church and read articles on apologetics, and I love a good religious debate (there is ample opportunity for this, given the nature of most people I work with).

I'm sure many heads are exploding right now due to this paradox.

I think most of us are old enough to know that what passes for science in this country looks a whole lot like factory work involving rows and rows of test tubes. The biggest difference is that you likely have enormous student loans.

The only head under pressure from its own inflation is yours.

[RocketMoose]

Don't be silly, it's symbolic Iron Age Literature concerning sacrifices and deities. It's obviously primitive superstitious nonsense and folklore, I suppose we could call it shitty mythology at best.


Agreed that they are bigoted and wrong about everything.



I'm not sure why you think I would get angry over any of this. I piss off religious people for entertainment, and occasionally make some of them think. I said I've read the bible, and study it. You say there is no way that I could have read your awesome book and drawn the conclusions that I have drawn. I think it's possible you're the one that's butthurt over the fact that not everyone wants to believe such garbage, and projecting that emotion onto me.
You really do think you have it all figured out don't you?

I mean it's hilarious to those sitting back reading what you're writing and the massive contradictions throughout everything you write.

First you agree that your parents are wrong about everything. That in and of itself goes to show you're the one who is "butt-hurt"

You haven't pissed me off, so I guess you haven't gotten much entertainment from me, sorry to disappoint you. You said you've read the bible and study it, I can just as easily say I'm a multi-millionaire doesn't put the money in my bank. If you've read the Bible and studied it with an open mind, and not trying to find something, anything to support your theory that the Bible is just shitty mythology.

You're such a biased person, it's unbelievable. You can say I'm the one 'projecting' emotions, but you're the one swearing all over the place and admit that you attempt to piss people off for entertainment. Christian or not, any psychologist could diagnose deep seeded anger in that person. I mean, how many happy, self confident, and people with any sense of self worth do you know that walk around trying to piss people off?

If the Bible is entirely wrong, then why is it practically every Ancient Civilization has an account of a great flood? Are they all wrong as well? Just curious.

[RocketMoose]

I think most of us are old enough to know that what passes for science in this country looks a whole lot like factory work involving rows and rows of test tubes. The biggest difference is that you likely have enormous student loans.

The only head under pressure from its own inflation is yours.

umad brew?

Should really relax, if you can't see the purpose of his post was to say that not every Christian is anti-science (there's no reason for any of them to be imo, God created the rules of physics and science, it's only going to further prove Him the more we discover with our finite minds) and not every Scientist is a crazy Anti-creationist that is just out to prove how wrong the Bible is.

You'd think with all the 100s of thousands of anti-Christian zealots out there and as smart as they all are in comparison to Christians, how they couldn't have proven that Jesus didn't exist, and the accounts of the Bible are false.

If you know so much about the Bible maybe you could tell me a little bit about the history of the Bible.

How many different writers are there of the Bible?
How many years did it take to compile the Bible?
Is the Bible the only historical document to give accounts of the life of Jesus?

[RocketMoose]

Sorry, the end of that was questions for Mr. Beauregard

[Beauregard]

You really do think you have it all figured out don't you?

I mean it's hilarious to those sitting back reading what you're writing and the massive contradictions throughout everything you write.

First you agree that your parents are wrong about everything. That in and of itself goes to show you're the one who is "butt-hurt"

You haven't pissed me off, so I guess you haven't gotten much entertainment from me, sorry to disappoint you. You said you've read the bible and study it, I can just as easily say I'm a multi-millionaire doesn't put the money in my bank. If you've read the Bible and studied it with an open mind, and not trying to find something, anything to support your theory that the Bible is just shitty mythology.

You're such a biased person, it's unbelievable. You can say I'm the one 'projecting' emotions, but you're the one swearing all over the place and admit that you attempt to piss people off for entertainment. Christian or not, any psychologist could diagnose deep seeded anger in that person. I mean, how many happy, self confident, and people with any sense of self worth do you know that walk around trying to piss people off?

If the Bible is entirely wrong, then why is it practically every Ancient Civilization has an account of a great flood? Are they all wrong as well? Just curious.

I don't piss christians off IRL, only online for entertainment of course. The great deluge myths probably originate out of the ending of the last Ice Age being burned into mankind's permanent memory.



If you know so much about the Bible maybe you could tell me a little bit about the history of the Bible.

How many different writers are there of the Bible?
How many years did it take to compile the Bible?
Is the Bible the only historical document to give accounts of the life of Jesus?


40ish, some anon.

1200ish years ending with the 2nd Council of Nicaea, not counting later translations or reinterpretations.

Yes and it's a stretch to call it a historical document, more appropriate would be historical literature, like the epic of gilgamesh.

[Harrison]

Life would be much simpler if I were as dumb as some of you, and as close-minded.

[Humerox]

How many different writers are there of the Bible?
How many years did it take to compile the Bible?
Is the Bible the only historical document to give accounts of the life of Jesus?

Including...or not including...what the medieval Church decided to toss out?
Or what hasn't been found?

the bible is like a docudrama based on true events.

I'm pretty certain Jesus existed, but so did Siddhartha Gautama.

Meh.

[quellren]

What does your unshakable faith say about the fact that a sizeable portion of the Bible relates direct accounts of interaction with 'The Almighty' and his angels. Everything from Abraham being told by God himself to kill Issac, to Moses receiving the Ten Commandments written DIRECTLY by God's finger. Theres a butt-load of divine interaction right up until Jesus and his death. And then it stops. Cold Turkey.


Why? Why no more?


Almost 24 hours and no one's bothered to answer my question.
I at least expected someone to point out all my closed mindedness and call me an idiot.

Question stands from page 41(?)

[maegi]

Almost 24 hours and no one's bothered to answer my question.
I at least expected someone to point out all my closed mindedness and call me an idiot.

Question stands from page 41(?)

Close minded idiot! kidding

[Misto]

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2945/user142031pic8329125795.gif

[maegi]

well in the old testament as you pointed out there was a lot of Divine intervention, and "miracles" ....maybe God got fed up with all the idiots and said fuck all of you tards, if you wanna figure it out, i gave you a brain , now use it? Who knows? I find it quite contrary too how different old and new is...but consider the sources. Also consider how much of the original bible was tossed out and edited to fit Christianity's supreme rule by fear of burning eternally in brimstone and fire.

God "You know what? Direct manipulation isn't working with you people. I shall now send down myself in the form of Jesus , but I'll refer to him as my son to confuse the Romans, hahaha. Who will then condem and crucify me , BUT , the caveat is, you can now sin freely as long as you accept Jesus and beg for forgiveness on your deathbeds...if you get the chance. Or conversely, go to church on Sunday and act holy, and be a douche the rest of the week, cuz it's OKKKKKK!!!

[quellren]

You know Misto, no one is forcing you to participate in this discussion.

Your little stamp just makes me realize you're butt-hurtt over this discussion, but don't know enough about the subject, or your own convictions to add to what's being said.

[maegi]

Misto,

You mad bro?

[Beauregard]

I'm pretty certain Jesus existed.


What gives you such certainty might I ask? It's fairly obvious he's a plagiarized mixture of other deities who didn't exist.

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ledavgpWZU1qcbrp0o1_500.jpg

[Harrison]

I'm too stupid to argue. Here is a coloring book picture lawl!

[Theldios]

What gives you such certainty might I ask? It's fairly obvious he's a plagiarized mixture of other deities who didn't exist.

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ledavgpWZU1qcbrp0o1_500.jpg
Here lets break this down and show the non facts of your comic book story board
your board states Born of a virgin WRONG
In the Hebrew world of Jesus, a woman does not lose her virginity because she marries. A woman only loses her virginity through unfaithfulness. Hence, Anna a prophetess who was widowed (in the book of Luke) was still called a virgin even though she was married. She was not a Virgin the sense that we today think of a virgin.
Christ was conceived through Immaculate conception
Your story board states Born on Dec 25th.
Was he really born on Dec 25th NO
Was Jesus born on December 25? There is no evidence for this date. So then, who decided that Jesus' birth would be celebrated on that date? The early Christian church did not celebrate Jesus' birth. It wasn't until A.D. 440 that the church officially proclaimed December 25 as the birth of Christ. This was not based on any religious evidence but on a pagan feast. Saturnalia was a tradition inherited by the Roman pagans from an earlier Babylonian priesthood. December 25 was used as a celebration of the birthday of the sun god. It was observed near the winter solstice.

As to the star in the East there are lots of stars in the east so who can really say.

He had 12 Disciples
Well he had 12 Apostles but he had many Disciples
Disciples are people who followed him around and listed to his teachings
Apostles went out and spread his word

Dead for 3 days. Well that's how the story goes and it is the leap of faith that allows people to believe this

Resurrected Same as dead for 3 days you have to have faith

Is god something tangible you can hold in your hand no it is a leap of faith

Is evolutionism something you can hold in your hand no it is a theory with a lot of strong indicators that point to it being fact but it is still a theory.

But can you say for sure that God did not plan it that way.

You say well according to the bible the earth is only 6000 years old
Where does it say that in the beginning a day is only 24 hours long?
For all you know it could be thousands of years long.. I don't know what they ment. and you don't know what they ment.

The debate can rage on and on but neither side can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt god existence or non existence. I choose to believe in god. and that's my choice. does that make me dumb.
Only in so much as you "think" everyone who disagrees with you is dumb.
And frankly what you think of me does not matter one bit to me or probably to anyone else. Until you put food on my table a roof over my head and clothes on my family's backs then you really do not matter at all.. other than to the degree that God tells me I should be nice and kind to you.
So have a blessed day and life
God bless you all

[Japan]

^^^^^^^
wow

[Gorgetrapper]

God bless you all

Don't fucking bless me, I don't want your damn curses.

[quellren]

You say well according to the bible the earth is only 6000 years old
Where does it say that in the beginning a day is only 24 hours long?
For all you know it could be thousands of years long.. I don't know what they ment. and you don't know what they ment.


And thats the game.... thanks for coming.
As soon as someone plays the 'God doesn't have to play by the rules' card, there's no going back.
All logic and legitimacy to the discussion just went out the window.

sigh.

[Alawen Everywhere]

No, I'm not particularly mad at all. I'm kind of tired and I have a lot of homework to do this weekend, though; thanks for asking.

If you knew anything about science and logic, you'd realize that it's virtually impossibly to prove a negative. The only way to do something like that is to account for every possible case. You could prove, for example, that none of the mice in a small population are infected with a particular disease by testing all of them. You could not prove, though, that there are no unicorns current living or that flying dragons never existed.

Since you went there, there's absolutely no concrete evidence that a man named Jesus was born in Bethlehem 2100 years ago and was crucified about three decades later. What is known is that the name "Jesus" is completely inconsistent with both the Hebrew and Aramaic languages. If there was an actual Jesus, his name was probably "Yeshua."

I wasn't the one talking about the Bible, but as it happens I'm quite familiar with it. I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic schools and was both an altar boy and a lector at mass. I didn't learn much about the Bible from those things, but I began to question my religion when I realized that God never answered my prayers. I started to wonder if I was doing something wrong. Then I started to wonder why other people seemed to truly and deeply believe in God. This led me on a decades-long search that culminated with my discovery of the proto Indo-European religion theory, which is primarily based on linguistic science.

So here are the answers to your questions, as near as I've discovered:

Who wrote the Bible? This is a complex question. The easy, Christian answer is that the Holy Spirit wrote the Bible. The Old Testament, of course, is borrowed almost completely from Judaism and the most widely accepted expert on those writings was a German named Martin Noth.

Noth hypothesized that the first five books of the Bible, the Books of Law, came from four sources (either individuals scribes or close groups of scribes) whom he designates J, E, D and P. He also attributes some of the books of prophets (Nevi'im in the Tanakh) to source D. The other books of prophets span about five hundred years, beginning around the sixth century BCE.

Toward the end of that time, we have the books which you may or may not be including, depending on your particular faith. Catholics still include the apocrypha, but those books are excluded from King James versions. The Dead Sea Scrolls included some of the books of the old testament. There are also additional books recognized by the Greek, Russian and Eastern Orthodox churches. The Anglican church also includes a few of those books.

It should be noted that Christian Bibles follow the organization of the Septuagint, a Greek translation, rather than the organization of the Hebrew Bible, although most western religions have re-translated from the Hebrew and Aramaic texts.

Now we get to the New Testament, where there are for more recognized scholars. It is generally accepted that the commonality between Matthew, Mark and Luke points to a common source, which has been dubbed document Q. None of them even purport to be eye-witness accounts and they were all likely written some time between 70 and 100. There's a lot of disagreement about whether or not the disciple John wrote the gospel of John but it is also believed to have been written during the same period.

Finally, we hit an actual known writer, Saint Paul, where I happen to live! Paul is credited with most of the letters, though it is speculated that he dictated the letters to a scribe rather than penning them in his own hand.

The final epistles and Revelations are attributed to a variety of sources. I was taught as a child that Revelations was written by John the apostle, but modern theory disagrees. I don't know if that was the common theory at that time or not.

How many years did it take to compile the Bible? I suppose this depends when you want to start counting. The oldest actual evidence available dates to the sixth or seventh century BCE, but multiple scholars theorize aural or lost sources dating back to about the twelfth century BCE. The King James edits were implemented in the early seventeenth century, so I suppose if I were to try to come up with a number, it would be about 2300 years.

Is the Bible the only Historical document to give accounts of the life of Jesus? No. There are the Gnostic texts and many other variations of gospels, acts, epistles and other scrolls in various states of completeness and provenance. However, none of the books of the Bible nor the additional texts are generally accepted by scholars as first person accounts dating to the actual life of Jesus. There are no official records, artifacts, sites or anything else which scientifically document the birth, life, or death of Jesus. The closest items are the Shroud of Turin, which has no record prior to the fourteenth century, and the Volto Santo, which happens to not actually exist.

Do I get extra credit for this paper?

[Alawen Everywhere]

I forgot a couple of alleged first-class relics. The crown of thorns and a nail from the passion are stored in the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. The Sudarium of Oviedo is a supposed burial headcloth held in the Cathedral of San Salvador in Spain. This would appear to conflict with the famed Shroud. Two different items claim to be the Mandylion or Image of Edessa.

There's also this concept of a third-class relic, where you just touch an item to a first-class relic and it's somehow holy, too. I've probably missed some other supposedly holy junk here, but none of it has provenance back to Jesus. There are endless little old shitty pieces of wood that claim to be part of the True Cross.

[purist]

I'm so not mad that here's 15 paragraphs explaining why

[Kassel]

I am going to end this thread via Godwins law. (lol?)

- God created man in his image, (physicaly, intelligently, spiritually)
- God created Hitler in his own image.
- If Gods' image is Hitler, God is a Nazi

If i claim God is a Nazi this never ending argument has come to completion as per Internet rules of engagment.

You may now resume your regular activities.

[chtulu]

I am going to end this thread via Godwins law. (lol?)

- God created man in his image, (physicaly, intelligently, spiritually)
- God created Hitler in his own image.
- If Gods' image is Hitler, God is a Nazi

If i claim God is a Nazi this never ending argument has come to completion as per Internet rules of engagment.

You may now resume your regular activities.


I declare rule 34.

[Cyn]

I am going to end this thread via Godwins law. (lol?)

- God created man in his image, (physicaly, intelligently, spiritually)
- God created Hitler in his own image.
- If Gods' image is Hitler, God is a Nazi

If i claim God is a Nazi this never ending argument has come to completion as per Internet rules of engagment.

You may now resume your regular activities.

Godwin's Law strikes again!!

[Alawen Everywhere]

In purist's world, no one writes anything unless they are F U R I O U S.

In my world, I write a lot. Almost as much as I read, which is really a lot.

Pray with me.

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith.
Where there is despair, hope.
Where there is darkness, light.
Where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive.
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.

Peace to you, brother purist.

[Japan]

In purist's world, no one writes anything unless they are F U R I O U S.

In my world, I write a lot. Almost as much as I read, which is really a lot.

Pray with me.

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love.
Where there is injury, pardon.
Where there is doubt, faith.
Where there is despair, hope.
Where there is darkness, light.
Where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled, as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive.
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.

Peace to you, brother purist.

http://www.gymidiots.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/umad.jpg

[Alawen Everywhere]

I am going to end this thread via Godwins law. (lol?)

- God created man in his image, (physicaly, intelligently, spiritually)
- God created Hitler in his own image.
- If Gods' image is Hitler, God is a Nazi

If i claim God is a Nazi this never ending argument has come to completion as per Internet rules of engagment.

You may now resume your regular activities.

You do realize that Godwin's law states that by bringing up Hitler and Nazis, you lost the argument, right?

[Humerox]

What gives you such certainty might I ask? It's fairly obvious he's a plagiarized mixture of other deities who didn't exist

clarification.

I'm pretty certain some charismatic dude named Jesus existed, but as far as being the son of "god", feeding the multitudes with bread crumbs, and foot surfing without a powerboat...those I'm not so sure about.

Zen Master Huang-Po was walking with a man. When they reached a river, the man walked right across the water without breaking stride. Huang-Po said, "If I had known he was that kind of man, I would have broken his legs before he reached the water.".

(Yes there is a moral there...just don't feel like spelling it out)

Good thing he wasn't with Jesus, I guess.


:D

[Kassel]

You do realize that Godwin's law states that by bringing up Hitler and Nazis, you lost the argument, right?

Right,

Whatever side I was on just lost.

Next question, do you believe i was on YOUR side? If so are you an idiot?

[Alawen Everywhere]

clarification.

I'm pretty certain some charismatic dude named Jesus existed, but as far as being the son of "god", feeding the multitudes with bread crumbs, and foot surfing without a powerboat...those I'm not so sure about.

Zen Master Huang-Po was walking with a man. When they reached a river, the man walked right across the water without breaking stride. Huang-Po said, "If I had known he was that kind of man, I would have broken his legs before he reached the water.".

(Yes there is a moral there...just don't feel like spelling it out)

Good thing he wasn't with Jesus, I guess.


:D

I'm confused by this. What makes you pretty certain of that? There are no first-hand accounts written of Jesus. The name Jesus is inconsistent with his supposed heritage. There are no records of anyone like him in a place and time when extensive records were kept. All accounts of Jesus arose almost a hundred years after he supposedly lived. It's pretty likely that someone (maybe Paul) invented Jesus and start presenting the stories as reality.

You either have faith or you don't. There is no scientific evidence to support the existence of Jesus. (Or Abraham, or Moses, or the Exodus, or Muhammad, if you want to get into that.)

[Alawen Everywhere]

I got myself off on a tangent and I've been studying the historicity of Muhammad tonight. It's just as bad as the Jesus situation, despite being just 1400 years ago.

One of the big problems here are the languages used. At the point these sacred texts were recorded, all of the Semitic languages lacked vowels and they were mostly recorded from notoriously unreliable oral traditions. These literacy and alphabet problems severely compromised recordings, making them conveniently easy to translate in many directions.

TL;DR: lol @ these fairy tales from illiterate, donkey-riding nomads

[Harrison]

And thats the game.... thanks for coming.
As soon as someone plays the 'God doesn't have to play by the rules' card, there's no going back.
All logic and legitimacy to the discussion just went out the window.

sigh.

That's some dumb shit right there. (In fact it's already been explained earlier in the thread.)

If you're too stupid, or uneducated, to figure out why you're even more retarded than I thought.

[Humerox]

I'm confused by this. What makes you pretty certain of that? There are no first-hand accounts written of Jesus. The name Jesus is inconsistent with his supposed heritage. There are no records of anyone like him in a place and time when extensive records were kept. All accounts of Jesus arose almost a hundred years after he supposedly lived. It's pretty likely that someone (maybe Paul) invented Jesus and start presenting the stories as reality.

You either have faith or you don't. There is no scientific evidence to support the existence of Jesus. (Or Abraham, or Moses, or the Exodus, or Muhammad, if you want to get into that.)


True.

personally I could care less...but it stands to reason there was probably someone at the core of the legend...there generally is.

oral tradition took care of the rest.

semantics, has put the wrong side of the fence, lol. I believe in "Jesus" as much as I do in St. George's dragon, which was probably originally some exotic tradesman's pet Gila. while a Gila (or Komodo -whatever) more than likely existed -probably making old George piss his drawers -legend made it a dragon.

[Alawen Everywhere]

True.

personally I could care less...but it stands to reason there was probably someone at the core of the legend...there generally is.

oral tradition took care of the rest.

semantics, has put the wrong side of the fence, lol. I believe in "Jesus" as much as I do in St. George's dragon, which was probably originally some exotic tradesman's pet Gila. while a Gila (or Komodo -whatever) more than likely existed -probably making old George piss his drawers -legend made it a dragon.

Your logic completely escapes me. Are you saying that you believe there must be some real historical figure on whom legends are built? So you believe in Adam, the Buddha, Noah, Jonah, Gilgamesh, Marduk, Odin, Quetzalcoatl, Paul Bunyan and Tinkerbell?

Do you realize that there is actual evidence of the existence of Nikolaos of Myra? That's right, Santa Claus is more real than Jesus or Muhammad. St. Nick was a short man with a broken nose and his remains are buried at Buri, Italy. This minor bishop lived less than 250 years after Jesus and 300 years before Muhammad, yet somehow we know where he lived, where he died, where he was buried, how his tomb was moved and where he is now. Yet, somehow, the records, remains and relics of the founders of Christianity and Islam were somehow lost or misplaced or destroyed or something and no one thought to write anything about them down until a hundred years after they lived.

They could have at least made up good stories about what happened to the physical evidence. Satan or Caesar or something. Lazy.

[Azazel]

There is no doubt over the existance of Muhammad his life is well documented.

[Humerox]

Your logic completely escapes me. Are you saying that you believe there must be some real historical figure on whom legends are built?

We're on the same side I think. Our only difference of opinion here is that I think a legend was built around someone...and you don't. Both amount to the same thing, ultimately.

Siddhartha Gautama, for example. He may or may not have existed, but the likelihood is high that he did, yes? What has been attributed to him is another question.


They could have at least made up good stories about what happened to the physical evidence. Satan or Caesar or something. Lazy.

Full agreement, here.


<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/IBxfGdRZvaI" frameborder="0" allowFullScreen></iframe>

[Alawen Everywhere]

There is no doubt over the existance of Muhammad his life is well documented.

You can state something as a fact, but that doesn't make it true. The biographies of Muhammad came very late and the Uthman Qur'an follows his supposed death by many decades. So what do you have? Later recordings of oral tradition (again)? There's that story about the treaty or whatever with the monastery at... drawing a blank, need Google... ah, here it is. The Achtiname, his supposed agreement with the monks of St. Catherine's. The only problem is that the original document was somehow lost (oh no not again!) and all that's left is a copy from the sixteenth or seventeenth century. Anonymous scribes of the Church of the East wrote the Chronicle of Seert which supposedly references Muhammad but uh-oh it wasn't written until the ninth century.

I'd say there's quite a lot of doubt about the existence of Muhammad, but maybe we have different definitions of that word. If you mean there are a lot of copies of the Qur'an, I'll have to yield the point, if you will grant me that the existence of lots of Marvel comics means that Spiderman is a real guy, too.

[Alawen Everywhere]

We're on the same side I think. Our only difference of opinion here is that I think a legend was built around someone...and you don't. Both amount to the same thing, ultimately.

Siddhartha Gautama, for example. He may or may not have existed, but the likelihood is high that he did, yes? What has been attributed to him is another question.

I think we are interpreting most of the concrete evidence the same way, but coming to different conclusions. I d'know about the Buddha. I see no real reason to believe he existed, either. The Buddhist thing is nice, though. Very respectful, very gentle. I sure like meat, though.

[Theldios]

And thats the game.... thanks for coming.
As soon as someone plays the 'God doesn't have to play by the rules' card, there's no going back.
All logic and legitimacy to the discussion just went out the window.

sigh.

Actully even Big Bang theorists say Time was different in the begining
So your point is?
Oh wait you haveno point except conjecture and half truths
Game over goodbye.

[Gorgetrapper]

Actully even Big Bang theorists say Time was different in the begining
So your point is?
Oh wait you haveno point except conjecture and half truths
Game over goodbye.

The only consistent thing in this world IS time. Whether people conceived it differently back then or not, it still moved at the same rate. So by saying the world is only "6000 years old" is a way they THINK. When you have something like carbon dating going on, where they say "oh these must have come from the age of the dinosaurs a million years ago" that was probably translated on how we conceive time as it stands in our world.

I mean fuck, there was this huge argument not even 2 months ago on one of my friends' facebook where this girl actually believed that the only reason there is disease and war in this world, is because there was separation of church and state and god was punishing us for that.

As someone said, it's all about faith, not matter how outlandish and crazy it may seem to everyone else.

[Chanus]

A rudimentary understanding of general relativity will reveal to you that time is anything but constant.

[Harrison]

I just explained that to him personally like 30 seconds ago lol

[Gorgetrapper]

What I was trying to get at, is that time as we perceive it NOW, is how we judge things.

[Harrison]

Making the fact about judging creation, had it happened eons and eons ago, under the "rules" as morons previously have dubbed them quite silly.

That long ago, had it happened, the "rules"(lol) don't apply as they do now.

[Alawen Everywhere]

This pseudo-science has gotten quite ridiculous. There's a whole lot of difference between the time of the big bang, the time of the dinosaurs, and 6,000 years ago. You guys trying to act like time moved differently in 4000 BCE are fucking retarded.

[Harrison]

I'd like to reiterate that I am not a theist by any means. I act on my own observations and beliefs.

"If everyone else in the world thinks you're wrong, but you believe you're right, you have to act on what you have sound reason to believe. Numbers of those against you don't change the facts and you must act to find the facts, not satisfy the crowd or any particular individual."

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

You all should read a book called "The First Three Seconds" - expand yo minds bitches.

[Bruno]

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.

Gratz on 49 pages of pepes getting trolled hard lol.

[Slathar]

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.

Gratz on 49 pages of pepes getting trolled hard lol.

wow what a brilliant insight. can you share some more

[amanduhh]

yeaaaaaah, my durango.......number 95

[Alawen Everywhere]

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.

Gratz on 49 pages of pepes getting trolled hard lol.

Wow, your insights are brilliant! You know what would drive this point home even more effectively? You could accompany your unique thoughts with a picture. Maybe a guy with Down syndrome bursting through a finish line tape?

[Bruno]

Wow, your insights are brilliant! You know what would drive this point home even more effectively? You could accompany your unique thoughts with a picture. Maybe a guy with Down syndrome bursting through a finish line tape?

I can see your mirror neurons are working properly :).

[Slathar]

I can see your mirror neurons are working properly :).

you're really smart tell us more

[Henini]

I'd say there's quite a lot of doubt about the existence of Muhammad, but maybe we have different definitions of that word. If you mean there are a lot of copies of the Qur'an, I'll have to yield the point, if you will grant me that the existence of lots of Marvel comics means that Spiderman is a real guy, too.

What the hell, are you implying Spiderman isn't real? But there are book and stories even movies about him, lots and lots of it too! How can he not be real? I have been devoting my life to worshiping him!!!! OMG!!!! OMG!!! OMG!!!

[Ponden]

You all should read a book called "The First Three Seconds" - expand yo minds bitches.

You mean "The First Three Minutes" by Steven Weinberg?

[abegeden]

if you play project 99, youre an idiot.

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

You mean "The First Three Minutes" by Steven Weinberg?

yeah, sry, three minutes. its been awhile. And the first 3 seconds are more what people are referring to (intentionally or not) when they say that "time as we understand it vis-a-vis physics operates differently under certain circumstances" ITT. Im tired, that sentence is not so well crafted, but you know what i mean.

[chtulu]

Gorilla biped. News at 11.


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[azxten]

I find it fascinating the way people use science as a replacement for God and continue the same fallacies they fault religious people for.

Faith in GOD?!? YOU ARE STUPIIDDDD!!!!

I have faith that atoms are little balls that spin around.. Oh wait, no that model is wrong now.. I have faith that tiny strings of ener.. oh wait, that's wrong too now..

RELIGION IS THE SOURCE OF ALL INJUSTICE AND SUFFERING!111!!1

*BP ruins an entire ecosystem using quite literally the most advanced technology and scientific knowledge available to mankind*

Derrrrrppp....

You're all idiots.

[Azazel]

I find it fascinating the way people use science as a replacement for God and continue the same fallacies they fault religious people for.

Faith in GOD?!? YOU ARE STUPIIDDDD!!!!

I have faith that atoms are little balls that spin around.. Oh wait, no that model is wrong now.. I have faith that tiny strings of ener.. oh wait, that's wrong too now..

RELIGION IS THE SOURCE OF ALL INJUSTICE AND SUFFERING!111!!1

*BP ruins an entire ecosystem using quite literally the most advanced technology and scientific knowledge available to mankind*

Derrrrrppp....

You're all idiots.

I don't get it. Are you trolling or being intentionally ignorant?

All scientific knowledge is gained though observation of phenomena and the postulation of hypotheses. The hypothesis that best explains the phenomena is used until a better one is found. Science therefore goes through continual self examination, ideas are held up to be criticized and this is the scientific methods great strength.

There is no 'faith' in this method of obtaining knowledge.

Religions on the other hand are rigidly defined belief systems based upon faith.

[Gukag]

He has a point though. Science is about constantly re-examining conclusions and "laws" and addapting to new knowledge, true.
But some retards, militant atheists being the most common, approach it as an extremely rigid form of faith too. We have found nothing in our quest for knowledge that truly discredits the idea of a "god" like being, any more than we have found proof for one. It is, at least so far, an unanswerable question (where ma agnostics at).
Atheists using science as a cudgel against religion is just ironic. Quite a good number will say religion is the greatest evil in the world. Which of course completely misses the point. Religion itself isn't "evil", whatever the fuck that means. It's just a tool for manipulation. It's a tribal identity, something common to all peoples everywhere throughout all ages. May as well say family is the source of all evil, or nationality, or languages, or any form of extended tribal identity, anything that separates one group of humans from another and can be used as a puppet string. "They are DIFFERENT, so you must kill them, steal their cattle, drive them away, etc"..True source of evil is just people, greedy, selfish people with a lust for power.
Which doesn't change the fact that a lot of what people believe as far as religion goes is totally fucking stupid.

[fastboy21]

there is a difference between real scientists/science, and the way most people view science.

educated scientists understand the difference between proven and theory, model and observed, hypothesis and evidence. many non-scientists (i.e. common every day folks) do not.

instead, many of these people simply look to science to tell them "truth" without any sort of skepticism or understanding. when you do this you make science your "faith"---and even in some sense make science into a god to be worshiped.

science in and of itself is not good or evil, at least not good or evil in any active sense of the words. as a tool, however, science (i.e. the knowledge we've learned as a species to manipulate our world in the last few hundred years) has been used to create horrible problems for the human species, as well as do great good.

what is so confusing to me is why when people can easily understand that science is simply a tool with which the human species can choose to do good or evil, why is it so hard to understand religion also is a tool that can be used to do good or evil (and is not intrinsically either).