TMO resort to hacking in VP

[Frieza_Prexus]

Tmo guild leader just confirmed as long as others cheat, they condone it.

Not quite. He essentially said "people in glass houses." I understand that distortion and misrepresentation are the things you live for, but at least make an effort at it.

[47shadesofgay]

Could you please let us know TMO's official stance on the use of this exploit please Zeelot? We're dying to hear it.

[47shadesofgay]

Not quite. He essentially said "people in glass houses." I understand that distortion and misrepresentation are the things you live for, but at least make an effort at it.

I agree, there seems to be some confusion over exactly how Zeelot and other TMO leaders feel about this exploit.

They should make a statement concerning it's use and their stance on it, in an attempt to clarify.

[RipinpeaceTMO2013]

Glad we have a new anon troll fan. It's been long overdue. Carry on the will of Harrison for us.

i am not anon your beaner guild mate cries on the forums more than he plays.

Clan Ta Veren sucked, you suck and Tmo sucks.

carry on noob

[Tippett]

everyone has done this forever in multiple situations

not sure if whole thread is srs or dum

[maverixdamighty]

I agree, there seems to be some confusion over exactly how Zeelot and other TMO leaders feel about this exploit.

They should make a statement concerning it's use and their stance on it, in an attempt to clarify.

they prefer it to be done on alts or unguilded chars. we've already had a thread about it before!

[chief]

I don't know about heallun and unbrella, but when did maultriss get an ip exemption to do this to you, zee?

man you have no clue wtf you're talking about, i first learned about this by maultriss doing this to us during that period fe or bda was just griefing TMO in vp for shits. The funny thing is we just didn't go crying to the gm's / rnf about it. Whining4loot lawl. grats on druushk new #1

[maverixdamighty]

man you have no clue wtf you're talking about, i first learned about this by maultriss doing this to us during that period fe or bda was just griefing TMO in vp for shits. The funny thing is we just didn't go crying to the gm's / rnf about it. Whining4loot lawl. grats on druushk new #1

you guys are crying about da and /q that's not what happened in the video idiots

[Lazortag]

Reds doing it all over their server, blues doing it in the zone with the least amount of GM involvement.

If GMs start dishing out punishments for this on blue, they better get ready to start actually enforcing it on Red where they've wanted it enforced since their server launched.

There's a difference - on the red server it's rampant, but no one ever has proof of anyone doing it. You have to understand, red players are incredibly stupid and don't understand concepts like "evidence", so they just whine about others breaking the rules with impunity without ever proving anything. That's why it's rarely addressed on red, but why it should be addressed here (assuming there's infallible proof that it happened - I didn't watch the video). Also, someone did once get their IP exemption removed on red for doing this, so it's clearly against the rules.

[Autotune]

SPIN that shit autotune, TMO is so pro over 1 year free vp, previous training experience yet need to exploit to compete with FE. GM's i hope you guys do something about these cheaters.

Spin what you fucking reject?

I fixed what Finalretard said.

God you faggots are so beyond idiots, it's amazing that you have the people to carry you mental midgets as far as they have.

[Autotune]

There's a difference - on the red server it's rampant, but no one ever has proof of anyone doing it. You have to understand, red players are incredibly stupid and don't understand concepts like "evidence", so they just whine about others breaking the rules with impunity without ever proving anything. That's why it's rarely addressed on red, but why it should be addressed here (assuming there's infallible proof that it happened - I didn't watch the video). Also, someone did once get their IP exemption removed on red for doing this, so it's clearly against the rules.

He was caught doing it (first on video, not the first to do it ever in VP tho).

[chief]

you guys are crying about da and /q that's not what happened in the video idiots

you sir are dumb

[Fazlazen]

BTW I looked at those fraps. It looks to me like Aiaus got CoHed.

Seems legit.

[Ele]

it is about like when IB found out Tmo was using hoops to kill shit. When we started doing it, THEN it turned into a exploit.

FE if i were you i would just get everyone a IP exemption and never die to TMO trainers ever again in VP

You mean when TR got them nerfed.

Trakanon 8/24/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWX2adECIk8
"Let's get it nerfed"
"Use Hoops, Get it nerfed"
"Let's get Hoops nerfed"
"Get it nerfed, do it right now"
"So retarded"
"Yeah, that is why it needs to be nerfed"


Patch with Ivandyr's Hoop nerf 9/10/2011, two weeks later.
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48145

[BigLe2e]

BTW I looked at those fraps. It looks to me like Aiaus got CoHed.

Seems legit.

Oh new spin! Confirm or deny, does one lose target of the CoTH'ed person upon being called? If so then you might have a solid case, not sure if GMs can look that log up. If not, MYTHBUSTED!

[Servellious]

BTW I looked at those fraps. It looks to me like Aiaus got CoHed.

Seems legit.

Logs back in at same place after as well!

[maverixdamighty]

you sir are dumb

you sir are beyond dumb

[maverixdamighty]

BTW I looked at those fraps. It looks to me like Aiaus got CoHed.

Seems legit.

yup also got coth'd back up to ledge magically after each time, hahahahhahah

[Frieza_Prexus]

yup also got coth'd back up to ledge magically after each time, hahahahhahah

Fazlazen is being sarcastic. It is not in dispute what occurred.

[chief]

big FE babies crying wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
http://thelintscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/crying_baby-570x3951.jpeg
fe's tear fizzle!

[RipinpeaceTMO2013]

big tmo babies crying wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
http://thelintscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/crying_baby-570x3951.jpeg
tmo's tear fizzle!

[quido]

good 1 lol

[Heebee]

Raid suspend TMO and reban Szeth. All will remain equal.

[Fael]

I have watched with my own eyes how many FE have used this very tactic to survive being killed in VP, and also in the Arena in the presence of Alovia (Option, the pride of FE).

It is astounding that FE would come here acting wronged, incite a 500 post thread, and troll the rest of the server into thinking that they have somehow been wronged and that justice would be served by crucifying one person for doing what they themselves do regularly.

This whole thread is a trumped up witch hunt. Literature commenting on this sick way groups of people hypocritically charge others with the crimes they themselves commit is abundant. Its no different than the scarlet letter or any random book or movie that borrows the theme. The audience immediately hates the character that does it; but in real life the audience is duped into joining in with the lynch mob.

In short, the rest of the server needs to wake up and realize youre getting trolled. This is RNF, so i suppose its part of the fun for some people.

[RipinpeaceTMO2013]

got video of them ? didn't think so exploiter

[Signal]

I have watched with my own eyes how many FE have used this very tactic to survive being killed in VP, and also in the Arena in the presence of Alovia (Option, the pride of FE).

It is astounding that FE would come here acting wronged, incite a 500 post thread, and troll the rest of the server into thinking that they have somehow been wronged and that justice would be served by crucifying one person for doing what they themselves do regularly.

This whole thread is a trumped up witch hunt. Literature commenting on this sick way groups of people hypocritically charge others with the crimes they themselves commit is abundant. Its no different than the scarlet letter or any random book or movie that borrows the theme. The audience immediately hates the character that does it; but in real life the audience is duped into joining in with the lynch mob.

In short, the rest of the server needs to wake up and realize youre getting trolled. This is RNF, so i suppose its part of the fun for some people.

Yet they have video evidence of it... And your guild has nothing but air as proof. Interesting.

[Fael]

Nope. No evidence. But is it the truth? Yes it is. Why doesn't option come on here and say otherwise, so we all know what of person he is?

Dolic

[RipinpeaceTMO2013]

your guild leader confirmed it is ok to have cheaters in the guild if others cheat. What is your 'word' on that? sir

[Fael]

Context sir. He said it was ok for someone in the guild to use ip exempt if the other guild is doing it also.

Its not legal to pull a gun on someone, but it is legal to pull a gun on someone who pulls a gun on you.

Dolic

[Fael]

dont quote me on that quote either: i remember the reference, but am speaking from memory and not from knowledge of what he said or meant by it.

Dolic

[Daldolma]

itt tmo cheats, admits cheating, levies counter accusations

clearly doing it wrong. step 1 admit nothing, step 2 deny everything

get better

[Fael]

step 1 admit nothing, step 2 deny everything. This maxim only works when the other side doesn't have video evidence. In such cases, one must use an affirmative defense against the charge (i.e. it was justified under the circumstances).

Perhaps if there was a bloody glove, it might not fit and thus they must acquit. But aiaus is a dwarf and no glove doesnt fit his carny hands.

Regardless, his actions were justified in the context of the other side rampantly doing the same thing. FE cannot demand they be treated fairly, when they themselves have not been acting fairly.

Dolic

[Tanthallas]

Maultriss, Unbrella, Heallun, and others have all survived my trains by instantly leaving game via Cast DA + /quit

If you're going to scream about exploits and fairness, stop doing it yourselves first ;)

Can you possibly be more full of shit?

[Daldolma]

step 1 admit nothing, step 2 deny everything. This maxim only works when the other side doesn't have video evidence. In such cases, one must use an affirmative defense against the charge (i.e. it was justified under the circumstances).

Perhaps if there was a bloody glove, it might not fit and thus they must acquit. But aiaus is a dwarf and no glove doesnt fit his carny hands.

Regardless, his actions were justified in the context of the other side rampantly doing the same thing. FE cannot demand they be treated fairly, when they themselves have not been acting fairly.

Dolic

lots of words, no proof

[Aviann]

Context sir. He said it was ok for someone in the guild to use ip exempt if the other guild is doing it also.

Its not legal to pull a gun on someone, but it is legal to pull a gun on someone who pulls a gun on you.

Dolic

If the above was true, everyone would be doing it. Your logic is idiotic at best. Fuck your context.

[Fael]

Lets have option come on here and tell us all he has never done it.

Lets have Maultriss, Unbrella, Heallun also come on here and say they never have done it.

Perhaps Maultriss hasn't-- i've seen her die to trains without popping out quick after a DA /q. But i have seen Heallun or whatever FE people who play Heallun do it many times. Is Heallun account ip exempt? Is Unbrella?

They should claim they haven't so when they are caught we will all know.

Dolic

[Atennu]

TMO doing everything in their power to fucking save face right now. Act like this cleric didn't use MQ2 and use insta camp more. Holy fuck, i'm glad there's 551 posts so far and not a thing has been done. Server is in good hands.

[Fael]

"Act like this cleric didn't use MQ2 and use insta camp more. "

Im sure they will look at the account if they decide to suspend him. When they do so they will know if he is flagged for 3rd party programs.

Dolic

[Tanthallas]

"Act like this cleric didn't use MQ2 and use insta camp more. "

Im sure they will look at the account if they decide to suspend him. When they do so they will know if he is flagged for 3rd party programs.

Dolic

Raid offense champ. He was doing this to a raid force for hours.

[Daldolma]

raid suspension necessary

[Lorraine]

I have watched with my own eyes how many FE have used this very tactic to survive being killed in VP, and also in the Arena in the presence of Alovia (Option, the pride of FE).

It is astounding that FE would come here acting wronged, incite a 500 post thread, and troll the rest of the server into thinking that they have somehow been wronged and that justice would be served by crucifying one person for doing what they themselves do regularly.

This whole thread is a trumped up witch hunt. Literature commenting on this sick way groups of people hypocritically charge others with the crimes they themselves commit is abundant. Its no different than the scarlet letter or any random book or movie that borrows the theme. The audience immediately hates the character that does it; but in real life the audience is duped into joining in with the lynch mob.

In short, the rest of the server needs to wake up and realize youre getting trolled. This is RNF, so i suppose its part of the fun for some people.


http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/2688/keepcalmanddrinkthekool.png

[Signal]

raid suspension necessary

[RipinpeaceTMO2013]

raid suspension necessary

[Aviann]

raid suspension necessary

[Yajirobe Yajipants]

raid suspension necessary

[Godefroi]

raid suspension necessary

[Godefroi]

Maultriss, Unbrella, Heallun, and others have all survived my trains by instantly leaving game via Cast DA + /quit

If you're going to scream about exploits and fairness, stop doing it yourselves first ;)

Do you really think we would fraps it, petition it and then petition if it was the case ?

Your guild got caught red handed cheating.

I know the only defense line you have is "they did it too", but you will struggle to show us proofs of something that never happened.

Otherwise please enlighten us with a fraps. Please do, we are waiting.

[Mortiiss]

So many posts.

[quido]

Tell me how great EQ and its 8-hour CRs with nothing to show for it are!

[Mortiiss]

Could you please let us know TMO's official stance on the use of this exploit please Zeelot? We're dying to hear it.
^ ??

Dodge?

[quido]

If everything is as you say, then your petition should go exceedingly well!

[Mortiiss]

What's TMO's official stance on it though? It's ok? Curious minds wish to know.

[Tanthallas]

What's TMO's official stance on it though? It's ok? Curious minds wish to know.

His spell was fizzling and kicking him out. Known glitch in the logs.

[quido]

Why should we tell you anything when you guys can't even be honest with yourselves!? :confused:

[quido]

I call doctored fraps spliced together with virtual duck tape

[Mortiiss]

Why should we tell you anything when you guys can't even be honest with yourselves!? :confused:

You have become better at Dodge! (200)

[Mortiiss]

I call doctored fraps spliced together with virtual duck tape

You have become better at Deflect! (200)

[quido]

I maxed my forum quest skills before you were ever born, boy.

[quido]

Luckily we don't answer to big jerks like you! If the staff wants to come discuss this issue with us, we are more than happy to oblige =)

[Mortiiss]

Could you please let us know TMO's official stance on the use of this exploit please Zeelot? We're dying to hear it.

We demand answers!

We demand knowledge!

No more silence!

[quido]

You know we like it when you throw a fit, right?

[Mortiiss]

I'm having fun.

[Nizzarr]

this happens every day on the red server.

I've been told they're working on a fix so that it doesnt happen anymore though -- probably in 2014.

[Mortiiss]

this happens every day on the red server.

I've been told they're working on a fix so that it doesnt happen anymore though -- probably in 2014.

That must make PvP awful over there.

[Yun]

Maultriss, Unbrella, Heallun, and others have all survived my trains by instantly leaving game via Cast DA + /quit

If you're going to scream about exploits and fairness, stop doing it yourselves first ;)

Oh, Zeelot. Trying to claim innocence behind the "BUT THEY DO IT" excuse. So weak, so weak.

UNINTENIONAL USE: The difference here is that there is no way our clerics can avoid the bug with IP exemption. They're just trying to /q out to survive, which is a regular practice. They're not purposely breaking the rules. It's an unintended side effect of trying to play the game.

INTENTIONAL USE: The way Aiaus is abusing it is so that your trainers can train and die with no ramifications whatsoever, because the cleric is unkillable. This prevents us from utilizing counter training to kill your trainers, which is intended in the "no rules" spirit of the zone. Aiaus along with Bruce, Kingore, and Sericx were intentionally abusing this to make your trains unkillable, which should be considered illegal, imo. Abusing game mechanics to get an advantage.

Why should this call for a raid suspension might you ask? You endorse blatant abuse of game mechanics. While we may have been advantaged if what you say about our Clerics /q'ing out is true, at least it's not intentional. It's standard practice to /q out in emergencies like that. You on the other hand, are endorsing the abuse of this exploit and your entire guild directly benefits from it. Your guild should be issued a raid suspension for this disgusting behavior. Man up and learn to win without cheating.

[quido]

After Aiaus' first rez, he didn't really need to be there. In fact I told him to log out so we'd have another backup cleric, something he could have easily done right then without any trickery. But he insisted on staying there and irritating you guys because he hadn't really gotten to play yet.

I'm not excusing his behavior. I have exemptions on all 7 of my accounts and have never employed this tactic once. I think his exemptions should be removed and the staff should send a clear message that exemptions are not to be used for dodging trains in VP. I think we should crack down on similar exploits at the same time too, like the bard hide exploit. That shit is ridiculous.

However, to claim that this bullshit is what kept us up in VP is ignoring reality and blatant misinformation. We had Marley alive before Aiaus ever started doing this and we had a bunch of people camped out taking naps that we could have woken. To claim that you guys have never employed this tactic is even more ludicrous, though.

[knix]

The same person who posted the second fraps also posted this video that was either edited to make look like the halfling was sitting and moving around the zone or this character was exploiting some kind of bug.

Shows that you have video editing skilz, as you wouldnt exploit a bug would you...



<object width="640" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/mK-IIsEXucY?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/mK-IIsEXucY?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="640" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

[RipinpeaceTMO2013]

lol ^ tmo on their last straw in this thread

[Susano]

The same person who posted the second fraps also posted this video that was either edited to make look like the halfling was sitting and moving around the zone or this character was exploiting some kind of bug.

Shows that you have video editing skilz, as you wouldnt exploit a bug would you...

Please don't shit up my thread with your rampant stupidity cunt.

[quido]

That's very very rude, Susano.

That video did crack me up though - awesome music!

[Godefroi]

After Aiaus' first rez, he didn't really need to be there. In fact I told him to log out so we'd have another backup cleric, something he could have easily done right then without any trickery. But he insisted on staying there and irritating you guys because he hadn't really gotten to play yet.

I'm not excusing his behavior. I have exemptions on all 7 of my accounts and have never employed this tactic once. I think his exemptions should be removed and the staff should send a clear message that exemptions are not to be used for dodging trains in VP. I think we should crack down on similar exploits at the same time too, like the bard hide exploit. That shit is ridiculous.

However, to claim that this bullshit is what kept us up in VP is ignoring reality and blatant misinformation. We had Marley alive before Aiaus ever started doing this and we had a bunch of people camped out taking naps that we could have woken. To claim that you guys have never employed this tactic is even more ludicrous, though.

Needs...........to........save..........face...... ..!

More pills, more deflection lol

You're trying hard pat but what is done is done amiguito

[Treats]

UNINTENIONAL USE: The difference here is that there is no way our clerics can avoid the bug with IP exemption. They're just trying to /q out to survive, which is a regular practice. They're not purposely breaking the rules. It's an unintended side effect of trying to play the game.


There is no Unintentional use of this.

This is what happens when you DA and /q:

If the PC that DA's and /q's is on any mobs hate list THEY WILL NOT EXIT THE GAME until either they are dead or the NPC with them on the hate list is dead.

The only way to circumvent this is by abusing the IP exemption to kick you.

It does not matter if it takes you 2 seconds or 25 seconds to do it, it's the same fucking thing.

FE claiming they have never abused this is simply laughable, it's a stupid fucking thread.

[RipinpeaceTMO2013]

and you made a stupid fucking post

[xmonkx]

Needs...........to........save..........face...... ..!

More pills, more deflection lol

You're trying hard pat but what is done is done amiguito

Nagach. Weve spoke about this matter already and its safe to say me and you are on better terms then some others. For one, I didnt even know this was going on up there. For two lets not beat around the bush. The night before when I was training Nexona I would honestly say half your guild give or take 1-3 people would poof instantly without LD message. I already know its gonna be prove this prove that. Honestly I dont give a fuck. I have no reason to lie. Ive already spoken to many of my friends in FE and told them about some of your guild members POOFING once this thread popped up. Yah you told me to tell you who poofs next time in front of me while im training. Ill get you the names. But sitting here bitching about something your guild also does to avoid trains is the pot calling the kettle black.

[RipinpeaceTMO2013]

I have no reason to lie.

when people make sure to say this, 9 out of 10 times it is a lie.

[quido]

I actually have legitimate use for all of my exemptions considering I play from Sloan's house sometimes, he might play from here sometime, and I have other random people that play on the same connection from time to time too.

[Tanthallas]

Nagach. Weve spoke about this matter already and its safe to say me and you are on better terms then some others. For one, I didnt even know this was going on up there. For two lets not beat around the bush. The night before when I was training Nexona I would honestly say half your guild give or take 1-3 people would poof instantly without LD message. I already know its gonna be prove this prove that. Honestly I dont give a fuck. I have no reason to lie. Ive already spoken to many of my friends in FE and told them about some of your guild members POOFING once this thread popped up. Yah you told me to tell you who poofs next time in front of me while im training. Ill get you the names. But sitting here bitching about something your guild also does to avoid trains is the pot calling the kettle black.

Sorry Sericx, this is a lie.

This cleric is using an EXPLOIT to GRIEF A RAID. I really could give two shits if people use this to fast switch characters or whatnot, but GRIEFING A RAID is a very different story.

The first one or two times I saw him do it, I didnt say anything. There is room for leniency in most cases. After he continued to do this for hours and hours, however, there was a major problem. You see, this prevented us from being able to pull Xygoz for over 2 hours because our already low numbers had to stay up there to make sure he did not res your train team on the ledge, whom we killed straight up and held down WITHOUT using any exploit.

[Tanthallas]

We had Marley alive before Aiaus ever started doing this and we had a bunch of people camped out taking naps that we could have woken. To claim that you guys have never employed this tactic is even more ludicrous, though.

1. Marley was camped out with res effects. The second Marley logged on, we killed him. We killed him 5 more times as Snackromancer and others kept trying to res him below the ledge. The ONLY reason you guys were able to delay us over 2 hours in the middle of the night is because of this cleric, period - everyone trainer from TMO was dead.

2. We have never employed this tactic to grief a raid, period. As far as if individuals have used /q with exemptions to get out quickly, I am sure there is someone in every guild who has. Be a freedom fighter and petition them.

[quido]

I'm sure it felt like hours, but it was really a much shorter period of time (for 20 or 30 min up until trak spawned) that he did this.

I saw your non-FD classes employ this very same tactic (though 3-5 seconds slower than Aiaus) when you came to VP after the recent repops. So don't give me that crap!

inb4 prove it

http://www.msu.edu/~oconne53/jeremytopless.jpg

[quido]

prove that he did it more than a couple times for a few minutes - surely you would fraps all his offenses, yes?

I think you guys are just trying to pass the buck for being slow on this one.

[Hailto]

Shits lame regardless

[xmonkx]

Sorry Sericx, this is a lie.

This cleric is using an EXPLOIT to GRIEF A RAID. I really could give two shits if people use this to fast switch characters or whatnot, but GRIEFING A RAID is a very different story.

The first one or two times I saw him do it, I didnt say anything. There is room for leniency in most cases. After he continued to do this for hours and hours, however, there was a major problem. You see, this prevented us from being able to pull Xygoz for over 2 hours because our already low numbers had to stay up there to make sure he did not res your train team on the ledge, whom we killed straight up and held down WITHOUT using any exploit.

You misread what I typed. Im not saying he didnt use the IP exemption. Im saying I saw half your guild poof when I was training the night before. And the claims of FE stating they dont use this same thing is a "lie". This was even brought up in vent when I was training , how the fuck did they get out so fast? That was mos def less than 30 seconds. Even when I /who there was maybe 1-2 LD's and the rest just vanished. And it didnt prevent anything. And in all honestly it didnt prevent the kill. We have clerics camped out on that same ledge that we have access too. So killing one cleric is just the tip of the iceberg. Not only till about maybe 8-830 am est you had a real shot once it was just me and Gollum in the zone at which time I sent out a BP for more reinforcements. Fortunately or unfortunately trak spawned within 30-45 mins of the batphone going out. I admire the motivation and dedication of FE. But lets be honest people will use what they have on both sides of the field. And to think FE is clean as a catholic nun is blasphemy. IE Helicopter and his duct tape we all know it was autofire and we can sit and argue it wasnt. Or Aiauss using IP exemption. Or the hundreds of things/exploiting/MQ/SEQ/ whatever it is that go undetected. So to sit back and play white knight saying TMO hacks TMO cheats TMO this TMO that, purge your own guild of the same issues then maybe MAYBE the point will valid. As I said I have some good friends in FE that keep me on the up and up and you guys are doing well. But lets not be hypocritical here.

[xmonkx]

1. Marley was camped out with res effects. The second Marley logged on, we killed him. We killed him 5 more times as Snackromancer and others kept trying to res him below the ledge. The ONLY reason you guys were able to delay us over 2 hours in the middle of the night is because of this cleric, period - everyone trainer from TMO was dead.

2. We have never employed this tactic to grief a raid, period. As far as if individuals have used /q with exemptions to get out quickly, I am sure there is someone in every guild who has. Be a freedom fighter and petition them.

And again here this is going to turn into a he said she said thing. You never completely wiped all the trainers out. Me, Kingore or Bruce were always up. Not saying at the same time but we always had a trainer ready to go. And even then we still had Gollum to suicide train if needed. So saying you completely wiped us is grossly false.

[Tanthallas]

And again here this is going to turn into a he said she said thing. You never completely wiped all the trainers out. Me, Kingore or Bruce were always up. Not saying at the same time but we always had a trainer ready to go. And even then we still had Gollum to suicide train if needed. So saying you completely wiped us is grossly false.

No. You had noone on the ledge other than Marley and Bruce. When Bruce died, this cleric would keep poping in trying to get res's off on him. When he was unable to, he would use this tactic over and over again.

Marley was res'd and camped out with res effects. The only option you had was this cleric staying alive or you would have no way at all to res your mages, clerics, trainers, that were dead on the ledge. After Bruce got charmed and Xerxes killed him for a duel death, he could not be res'd, and we got out Xygoz attempt.

[Godefroi]

Nagach. Weve spoke about this matter already and its safe to say me and you are on better terms then some others. For one, I didnt even know this was going on up there. For two lets not beat around the bush. The night before when I was training Nexona I would honestly say half your guild give or take 1-3 people would poof instantly without LD message. I already know its gonna be prove this prove that. Honestly I dont give a fuck. I have no reason to lie. Ive already spoken to many of my friends in FE and told them about some of your guild members POOFING once this thread popped up. Yah you told me to tell you who poofs next time in front of me while im training. Ill get you the names. But sitting here bitching about something your guild also does to avoid trains is the pot calling the kettle black.

The fact that we are on good terms doesn't change that you are completely out of your fucking mind saying half of FE was using this.

We discovered this exploit yesterday, hence the outrage, hence the fraps, the petition and the RnF.

I've kindly asked TMO to provide proofs of what they are saying, yet I have yet to see anything.

I'm gonna sell coke and when I get caught I'll say I saw the cops around the corner stashing nose sugar too pal, seriously, get fucking real.

Also, we did wipe you from the ledge, you were also dead dude. The only person that was logging in/out errrrrrrrrr, disappearing when trained wasAiaus.

Marley was dead, Bruce also and even ate an exp death 'cause pinned down. for about 40 minutes the only thing you had left was Aiaus hence his desperate attempt to survive implying cheating.

Get real, show proofs or just stop spining. This is ridiculous and lame, cheat2win, if this is how you intend to play, I guess we are all gonna get IP exemptions, it will make VP way easier!

[baramur]

Here is the difference da and q are a mechanic of eq, ip exemptions are so multiple people can play the game. Using an ip exemption to fast exit is exploiting the use of the exemption. You are not using exemption as its purpose was designed thus exploiting it. Da and /q is using the classic mechanic, not exploiting a non classic mechanic.

[xmonkx]

No. You had noone on the ledge other than Marley and Bruce. When Bruce died, this cleric would keep poping in trying to get res's off on him. When he was unable to, he would use this tactic over and over again.

Marley was res'd and camped out with res effects. The only option you had was this cleric staying alive or you would have no way at all to res your mages, clerics, trainers, that were dead on the ledge. After Bruce got charmed and Xerxes killed him for a duel death, he could not be res'd, and we got out Xygoz attempt.

The fact that we are on good terms doesn't change that you are completely out of your fucking mind saying half of FE was using this.

We discovered this exploit yesterday, hence the outrage, hence the fraps, the petition and the RnF.

I've kindly asked TMO to provide proofs of what they are saying, yet I have yet to see anything.

I'm gonna sell coke and when I get caught I'll say I saw the cops around the corner stashing nose sugar too pal, seriously, get fucking real.

Also, we did wipe you from the ledge, you were also dead dude. The only person that was logging in/out errrrrrrrrr, disappearing when trained wasAiaus.

Marley was dead, Bruce also and even ate an exp death 'cause pinned down. for about 40 minutes the only thing you had left was Aiaus hence his desperate attempt to survive implying cheating.

Get real, show proofs or just stop spining. This is ridiculous and lame, cheat2win, if this is how you intend to play, I guess we are all gonna get IP exemptions, it will make VP way easier!

These stories are conflicting each other, one stating bruce and marley is dead, one stating everyone was dead. The name that is not comming up here is Kingore. As I said we always had one trainer ready. And Nagach I did not say half of FE uses IP exemptions. I said half of the people I was training POOFED. Implying yes that it looks like IP exemptions. P. And you say Aiaus is the only one we had left but obviously not counting Gollum never dieing in there once. And to be so narrow minded to think yah these are the only toons we have access to while FE is in there trying to take a boss down ,as if we didnt have other trainers at ledge or clerics, is straight retarded. Only once it was me and Gollum in the zone is when I started to sweat a little and call more people in.

[xmonkx]

No. You had noone on the ledge other than Marley and Bruce. When Bruce died, this cleric would keep poping in trying to get res's off on him. When he was unable to, he would use this tactic over and over again.

Marley was res'd and camped out with res effects. The only option you had was this cleric staying alive or you would have no way at all to res your mages, clerics, trainers, that were dead on the ledge. After Bruce got charmed and Xerxes killed him for a duel death, he could not be res'd, and we got out Xygoz attempt.

And also to add to this, I was never on the ledge while you guys were playing grab ass on the ledge. I was ping ponging between nexona and druushk mobs to pull when Gollum gave me the green light that pull was otw. Yah I died when I trained Xygoz to pic room and Bruce pulled him up top to attempt to train. Xerxes did kill him so that gave us 6 mins to rez him. But again the name that is not comming up is "KINGORE". As I said we always had at least 1 trainer up at all times

[xmonkx]

The fact that we are on good terms doesn't change that you are completely out of your fucking mind saying half of FE was using this.

We discovered this exploit yesterday, hence the outrage, hence the fraps, the petition and the RnF.

I've kindly asked TMO to provide proofs of what they are saying, yet I have yet to see anything.

I'm gonna sell coke and when I get caught I'll say I saw the cops around the corner stashing nose sugar too pal, seriously, get fucking real.

Also, we did wipe you from the ledge, you were also dead dude. The only person that was logging in/out errrrrrrrrr, disappearing when trained wasAiaus.

Marley was dead, Bruce also and even ate an exp death 'cause pinned down. for about 40 minutes the only thing you had left was Aiaus hence his desperate attempt to survive implying cheating.

Get real, show proofs or just stop spining. This is ridiculous and lame, cheat2win, if this is how you intend to play, I guess we are all gonna get IP exemptions, it will make VP way easier!

Then I guess we are just gonna have to buy more duct tape now arent we Nagach? This whole White Night, we are taking down the server monster is bullshit when these and or other tactics are used inside FE but yet we are just gonna turn a blind eye when they are used, is Helicopter still guilded i'm sure he is. And you saying we grief a raid? When FE started out attempting CT's setting multiple DT chains after a wipe? Yah mos def the pot calling the kettle black.

[finalgrunt]

Then I guess we are just gonna have to buy more duct tape now arent we Nagach? This whole White Night, we are taking down the server monster is bullshit when these and or other tactics are used inside FE but yet we are just gonna turn a blind eye when they are used, is Helicopter still guilded i'm sure he is. And you saying we grief a raid? When FE started out attempting CT's setting multiple DT chains after a wipe? Yah mos def the pot calling the kettle black.

Are you really putting DT cycles on the same level of a clear cheat/exploit?
Cheaters & exploiters must be banned. So if you got proof / fraps, petition whoever does the same, it will make this server a better place.
And when guild leadership sanctions such behavior, then something must be done on a higher level.

This is so wrong on so many levels ...

[Godefroi]

These stories are conflicting each other, one stating bruce and marley is dead, one stating everyone was dead. The name that is not comming up here is Kingore. As I said we always had one trainer ready. And Nagach I did not say half of FE uses IP exemptions. I said half of the people I was training POOFED. Implying yes that it looks like IP exemptions. P. And you say Aiaus is the only one we had left but obviously not counting Gollum never dieing in there once. And to be so narrow minded to think yah these are the only toons we have access to while FE is in there trying to take a boss down ,as if we didnt have other trainers at ledge or clerics, is straight retarded. Only once it was me and Gollum in the zone is when I started to sweat a little and call more people in.

Gollum wasn't on the ledge, he was in the painting room.

So if Half of FE doesn't have IP exemptions how can they possible poof since you have explained us so well this exploit is induced by exploiting IP exemptions mecanism ?

Sorry pal, you are just lying here, but carry on.

I didn't think you seriously would condone cheating, I thought you liked competition.

[xmonkx]

And sorry for the 4 replies back to back but if you want some proof. This was your best Xygoz attempt believe it was 46% before it started to regen and or my racnars came in.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/eq000029.png/

[xmonkx]

Gollum wasn't on the ledge, he was in the painting room.

So if Half of FE doesn't have IP exemptions how can they possible poof since you have explained us so well this exploit is induced by exploiting IP exemptions mecanism ?

Sorry pal, you are just lying here, but carry on.

I didn't think you seriously would condone cheating, I thought you liked competition.

Them poofing? Your guess is as good as mine. But there is not exactly many options to pick from now is there? And for our cleric. As I said I was busy setting trains up for the Xygoz pull.

[Godefroi]

Then I guess we are just gonna have to buy more duct tape now arent we Nagach? This whole White Night, we are taking down the server monster is bullshit when these and or other tactics are used inside FE but yet we are just gonna turn a blind eye when they are used, is Helicopter still guilded i'm sure he is. And you saying we grief a raid? When FE started out attempting CT's setting multiple DT chains after a wipe? Yah mos def the pot calling the kettle black.

1) Helicopter was searched by Alovia for 3rd party programs and nothing was found.

2) He was suspended for breaking the play nice rule, for spamming another player with a Gflux staff after this one had opened trade with him. If you have any doubts about this lease refer to Alovia.

3) starting DT cycles on CT during the CT encounter is nothing illegal, any lvl 1 can zone inside fear and aggro CT and start a DT cycle if he wants. This has always happened. How are you even mentioning this ? Is this exploiting ? Cheating ? No. It's not related to the thread at all.

-> Starting DT cycles with eyes is strictly forbidden, yet Aalpha repeatedly did it on the 2 CTs we got.

I'm Sorry Villexo, you are just failing at proving anything here, you are contradicting yourself saying half of FE doesn't have IP exemptions yet half of them manage to poof, without showingh us any proof. Yet this thread has widely documented that you need IP exemptions to do this.

No proof, contradictions. You are just spinning and I must say it is rather disappoiting.

[xmonkx]

Are you really putting DT cycles on the same level of a clear cheat/exploit?
Cheaters & exploiters must be banned. So if you got proof / fraps, petition whoever does the same, it will make this server a better place.
And when guild leadership sanctions such behavior, then something must be done on a higher level.

This is so wrong on so many levels ...

Then why is Helicopter still in FE and not banned? guess the duct tape was strong in this one? But we can avoid this conversation cause its a soft spot?

[xmonkx]

1) Helicopter was searched by Alovia for 3rd party programs and nothing was found.

2) He was suspended for breaking the play nice rule, for spamming another player with a Gflux staff after this one had opened trade with him. If you have any doubts about this lease refer to Alovia.

3) starting DT cycles on CT during the CT encounter is nothing illegal, any lvl 1 can zone inside fear and aggro CT and start a DT cycle if he wants. This has always happened. How are you even mentioning this ? Is this exploiting ? Cheating ? No. It's not related to the thread at all.

-> Starting DT cycles with eyes is strictly forbidden, yet Aalpha repeatedly did it on the 2 CTs we got.

I'm Sorry Villexo, you are just failing at proving anything here, you are contradicting yourself saying half of FE doesn't have IP exemptions yet half of them manage to poof, without showingh us any proof. Yet this thread has widely documented that you need IP exemptions to do this.

No proof, contradictions. You are just spinning and I must say it is rather disappoiting.

Never did I once say starting DT cycles is cheating/exploiting. I said it was griefing. Slow down and read what I type.

[Godefroi]

And sorry for the 4 replies back to back but if you want some proof. This was your best Xygoz attempt believe it was 46% before it started to regen and or my racnars came in.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/820/eq000029.png/

What is your point ? I never said we killed Xygoz, never said your cheating made us wipe or anything.

I only talked about the ledge, and how your cleric cheated in order to carry on rezzing marley and bruce. This is totally unrelated, once again.

Stalling us on the ledge thanks to cheating just stalled us, it didn't have any effect on our attempt we wiped because of mistakes made on our own since we're still in a learning process.

Cheating with your cleric to rez trainers back on the ledge only made us keep our raid force logged, it didn't make us wipe on xygoz at all.

Stop being confusing yourself in your preposterous attempts to spin and deflect buddy.

[Godefroi]

Never did I once say starting DT cycles is cheating/exploiting. I said it was griefing. Slow down and read what I type.

This thread isn't about griefing pal, it's about cheating and exploiting.

Read the title, the OP's videos and get back on the topic.

If you want to discuss how lame griefing is on the raid scene I'll be glad to discuss this with you, but this is not the topic here.

[xmonkx]

1) Helicopter was searched by Alovia for 3rd party programs and nothing was found.

2) He was suspended for breaking the play nice rule, for spamming another player with a Gflux staff after this one had opened trade with him. If you have any doubts about this lease refer to Alovia.

3) starting DT cycles on CT during the CT encounter is nothing illegal, any lvl 1 can zone inside fear and aggro CT and start a DT cycle if he wants. This has always happened. How are you even mentioning this ? Is this exploiting ? Cheating ? No. It's not related to the thread at all.

-> Starting DT cycles with eyes is strictly forbidden, yet Aalpha repeatedly did it on the 2 CTs we got.

I'm Sorry Villexo, you are just failing at proving anything here, you are contradicting yourself saying half of FE doesn't have IP exemptions yet half of them manage to poof, without showingh us any proof. Yet this thread has widely documented that you need IP exemptions to do this.

No proof, contradictions. You are just spinning and I must say it is rather disappoiting.

Honestly your gonna sit here and say Helicopter wasnt using autofire when its a click away to delete that from his files. Im done with this conversation. No point in argueing with people that look away when there own kin uses cheats/exploits. And to say FE is 100% clean is, you must be crazy.

[Godefroi]

Then why is Helicopter still in FE and not banned? guess the duct tape was strong in this one? But we can avoid this conversation cause its a soft spot?

Why would Helicopter being removed from FE since the GM checked him and no 3rd party program was found? Otherwise he would be perma banned (or for 6 months, since it seems that perma banns just last 6 months here).

Please refer to Alovia's ruling, we do not have to remove Helicopter since he wasn't suspended for cheating but for breaking the play nice rule for spamming another player.

Try again.

[xmonkx]

Sorry Sericx, this is a lie.

This cleric is using an EXPLOIT to GRIEF A RAID. I really could give two shits if people use this to fast switch characters or whatnot, but GRIEFING A RAID is a very different story.

The first one or two times I saw him do it, I didnt say anything. There is room for leniency in most cases. After he continued to do this for hours and hours, however, there was a major problem. You see, this prevented us from being able to pull Xygoz for over 2 hours because our already low numbers had to stay up there to make sure he did not res your train team on the ledge, whom we killed straight up and held down WITHOUT using any exploit.

Pretty sure that says GRIEF A RAID. Regardless of the methods.

[xmonkx]

As I said Nagach, I really dont care either way. Im sure both guilds use X cheat X exploit. And same with a shit ton of other guilds. But if you can honestly say FE is 100% clean and doesnt use anything and can sleep well at night with that statement. Then you on a whole different level then me I guess. Ill see you in game im done with forum argueing.

[Godefroi]

Honestly your gonna sit here and say Helicopter wasnt using autofire when its a click away to delete that from his files. Im done with this conversation. No point in argueing with people that look away when there own kin uses cheats/exploits. And to say FE is 100% clean is, you must be crazy.

How can I know if FE is 100% clean ? I'm not stating things I cannot verify pal.

I'm telling you however what's known for sure :

1) Helicopter was checked by a GM and no 3rd party program were found, for all I know he could have been spamming his buttons. that's not nice to spamm another player and he got a 1 day suspension outta it. If you find this ruling too kind, please refer to alovia, but then once again, she didn't find anything shady.

2) You state half of FE poofs, yet you also state not half of them have IP exemptions. How is this possible ? It just simply isn't, and you are contradicting yourself.

I can understand it is humiliating for such a competitive player like you to have his guild caught red handed using an utterly lame tactic to win, yet it is what it is, it got frapsed and it's seriously embarassing for you as for people screaming to get competition for months, cheating when you get it seriously shows you should grow a pair of bollocks.

Now, unless you stop contradicting yourself, show me fraps of an FE cleric doing this same exploit, please, don't embrass yourself any further.

[Godefroi]

As I said Nagach, I really dont care either way. Im sure both guilds use X cheat X exploit. And same with a shit ton of other guilds. But if you can honestly say FE is 100% clean and doesnt use anything and can sleep well at night with that statement. Then you on a whole different level then me I guess. Ill see you in game im done with forum argueing.

So your argument is "We cheat because other cheat".

I'm sorry pal, I know the guild I play in and we didn't use this exploit, we discovered it yesterday, you actually even explained us how it works.

Mentioning that your only way to save face is saying that we do it too, without showing any evidences, is seriously cringeworthy.

[finalgrunt]

Then why is Helicopter still in FE and not banned? guess the duct tape was strong in this one? But we can avoid this conversation cause its a soft spot?

I'm not avoiding anything. ANY cheater/exploiter should be banned. And if a guild sanctions the said behavior, the guild should be suspended too. Duct tape stuff should have led to a suspension, at least.

Don't you agree with that? Or are you ok with cheaters when it benefits you?

[Jokesteve]

ITT: Lots of QQ

[raff01]

You people are pathetic...get a life FFS

[Tecmos Deception]

What's your character ingame, raff? I'd like to come PL my twinked friends in the zones you level in.

[raff01]

Sure, come to Kerra Island, I am leveling there.

[maverixdamighty]

Honestly your gonna sit here and say Helicopter wasnt using autofire when its a click away to delete that from his files. Im done with this conversation. No point in argueing with people that look away when there own kin uses cheats/exploits. And to say FE is 100% clean is, you must be crazy.

an idiot that condones cheating, confirmed.

[Daldolma]

hey guys cheating is ok bc other people do it*

*Note: can't prove other people do it

[Ele]

We discovered this exploit yesterday, hence the outrage, hence the fraps, the petition and the RnF.

No need to out right lie.

[Godefroi]

No need to out right lie.

I know that you're pissed and humiliated right now.

Atleast your guildies admit it, I dunno why you carry on pretending lol

[Yapas]

You people are pathetic...get a life FFS

+1

[Alarti0001]

Duct Tape.

[getsome]

welcher

[Ele]

did people train eachother nonstop in classic vp?

There wasn't enough time for hundreds of VP keys to be made on a live server before Velious came out. New items were still being found in VP well after Velious was released.

The faster release of expansions on live prevented overcrowding in VP (and the unsolved/little known key quests).

[Ele]

I know that you're pissed and humiliated right now.

Atleast your guildies admit it, I dunno why you carry on pretending lol

Admit what and pretend what? Have you read any of my posts in this thread?

I think we are having two different conversations. I've been nothing but cordial in our conversations, but you don't hesitate to start lobbing ad hominem attacks at me in game and on the forum. Big up yourself and stay classy.

P.S. I ain't even mad.

[Tanthallas]

Big up yourself and stay classy.

P.S. I ain't even mad.

I didnt know there was such a large grey area between staying classy and exploiting to not lose another mob in VP.

P.S. You are full of shit.

[Godefroi]

Admit what and pretend what? Have you read any of my posts in this thread?

I think we are having two different conversations. I've been nothing but cordial in our conversations, but you don't hesitate to start lobbing ad hominem attacks at me in game and on the forum. Big up yourself and stay classy.

P.S. I ain't even mad.

Everyone here (even TMO) admitted this was cheating and exploiting. You carry on deflecting your embarassment by saying "hey admit your guild cheats". How do you want me to admit something that never happened? I'm sorry to disappoint Villexo and you here, but we didn't know about this, this cheating is so fucking obvious that who ever was on Aiaus was retarded enough to do it 50 times in front of our raid.

So no we aint having 2 different conversations, you're just mistaken here dear.

As of when I gently asked you to go suck a bag of dicks, it was just somehow to break all the clichés right away, we ain't as romantic as they say we are ;)

[Ele]

I didnt know there was such a large grey area between staying classy and exploiting to not lose another mob in VP.

P.S. You are full of shit.

Have you read any of my posts in this thread? I suggest that you do before you address me again.

P.S. Take my advice and stay classy, no need to resort to profanity in your responses. It makes you appear juvenile.

[quido]

Some of us like profanity, Elethia. I think its use is a form of art! But Beavis Christ, the Savior of Mankind says its bad =(

[Godefroi]

Have you read any of my posts in this thread? I suggest that you do before you address me again.

P.S. Take my advice and stay classy, no need to resort to profanity in your responses. It makes you appear juvenile.

Pardonnez-nous Mademoiselle, c'est vrai, nous sommes de vrais goujats...

Puisque vous semblez aimer les gentilhommes, voyons-nous en 5 à 7, je vous montrerai par derrière et les jambes en l'air ce que sont les bonnes manières.

THIS is classy, english doesn't support classy behaviours anyways. ;)

[Ele]

Everyone here (even TMO) admitted this was cheating and exploiting. You carry on deflecting your embarassment by saying "hey admit your guild cheats". How do you want me to admit something that never happened? I'm sorry to disappoint Villexo and you here, but we didn't know about this, this cheating is so fucking obvious that who ever was on Aiaus was retarded enough to do it 50 times in front of our raid.

So no we aint having 2 different conversations, you're just mistaken here dear.

As of when I gently asked you to go suck a bag of dicks, it was just somehow to break all the clichés right away, we ain't as romantic as they say we are ;)

Godefroi,

Excusez moi if there is language barrier issue, but you may have misunderstood what I said, or it may be on my end in as such that I did not put it in simple enough terms.

I am not deflecting any issue, but for you and your crew to come on the forums and feign ignorance that ip exemptions are some new magical get out of jail free card is down right sad.

Please read my previous posts in this thread. You will find that I addressed the issue that you raise in your response multiple times and my position on the matter.

Did my statement ask you to admit anything? No. Did my original statement to you say that it ever occurred? No. So I am not sure why you inject that in your response to me.

P.S. I'm not a girl. Please stop hitting on me.

[Ele]

Pardonnez-nous Mademoiselle, c'est vrai, nous sommes de vrais goujats...

Puisque vous semblez aimer les gentilhommes, voyons-nous en 5 à 7, je vous montrerai par derrière et les jambes en l'air ce que sont les bonnes manières.

THIS is classy, english doesn't support classy behaviours anyways. ;)

P.S. I'm not a girl. Please stop hitting on me.

[quido]

a/s/l elethia

[Ele]

a/s/l elethia

This guy.

[knix]

Please don't shit up my thread with your rampant stupidity cunt.

YOUR thread,

Susano you were offensive when you were guilded in BDA with me and you are Still offensive in FE. Nothing has changed for you.

You are a sorry strange little man. Sorry you take this so serious. Have a little fun, get out of your parent basement, Here I found a wiki article for you
http://www.wikihow.com/Get-Over-Your-Fear-of-Women

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[Godefroi]

Godefroi,

Excusez moi if there is language barrier issue, but you may have misunderstood what I said, or it may be on my end in as such that I did not put it in simple enough terms.

I am not deflecting any issue, but for you and your crew to come on the forums and feign ignorance that ip exemptions are some new magical get out of jail free card is down right sad.

Please read my previous posts in this thread. You will find that I addressed the issue that you raise in your response multiple times and my position on the matter.

Did my statement ask you to admit anything? No. Did my original statement to you say that it ever occurred? No. So I am not sure why you inject that in your response to me.

P.S. I'm not a girl. Please stop hitting on me.

You wanted classy stuff, you got it, also, not my bad if you RP a chick IG :D

It's kinda weird but ehhh, I guess you have your reasons.

You said I Was lying, even though I don't care what ever your opinion is, I answered you to defend mine. that's all ;)

[Raije]

Can Sericx and Ele stay outta the discussion? They are terrible posters and are ruining my morning poo.

[Tanthallas]

Godefroi,

Excusez moi if there is language barrier issue, but you may have misunderstood what I said, or it may be on my end in as such that I did not put it in simple enough terms.

I am not deflecting any issue, but for you and your crew to come on the forums and feign ignorance that ip exemptions are some new magical get out of jail free card is down right sad.

Please read my previous posts in this thread. You will find that I addressed the issue that you raise in your response multiple times and my position on the matter.

Did my statement ask you to admit anything? No. Did my original statement to you say that it ever occurred? No. So I am not sure why you inject that in your response to me.

P.S. I'm not a girl. Please stop hitting on me.

People who arent good at using words should use them less.

As for the 'ignorance' of what can be done with IP exemptions - you are completely and utterly full of shit. I have NEVER seen anyone insta-poof dozens of times repeatedly without even an LD sign above their heads. EVER.

You seem to like to press irrelevant points, however, because the fact of the matter is that what 'everyone knows' is moot. Your cleric clearly abused his IP exemption. Not only did he abuse it, he used it to grief a raid over and over again. Not only did he grief a raid via exploiting continuously, he did it to benefit another raid.

A TMO officer was there the whole time and did nothing. Saying after the fact that you do not agree with it means as little to me as your opinion on who knows this exploit existed.

[quido]

For the record, I didn't really know he was poofing like THAT until they started laughing about you guys crying MQ. I figured he was doing the DA thing. And I did tell him to gtfo the whole while =P

Stop claiming ignorance on the insta-poof from your own members - it's ruining your credibility.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Everyone here (even TMO) admitted this was cheating and exploiting. You carry on deflecting your embarassment by saying "hey admit your guild cheats". How do you want me to admit something that never happened? I'm sorry to disappoint Villexo and you here, but we didn't know about this, this cheating is so fucking obvious that who ever was on Aiaus was retarded enough to do it 50 times in front of our raid.

I think the point, at least one of them, that he's trying to make is that many people are trying to impute wrongdoing onto every single member of TMO because of the actions of a single person (or a select few persons). If that is the case, then it would be equally valid to turn right back around and do the same thing to FE. Perhaps you and the majority of your leadership were unaware of such a tactic, just as some in TMO were. However, it is completely disingenuous to think that the abuse of IP exemptions has not occurred to some degree or another on both sides. That said, the degree of abuse may differ, but it has ben readily admitted that his abuses were likely the most severe to date.

What I find most interesting is that Elethia has gone so far as to agree with you that Aiaus should be punished. The only real difference seems to be in what the punishment should be (stripping the exemption and suspending versus banning or raid suspending the entire guild).

He's attempting to met you halfway and actually discuss and debate the issue, yet he is being dismissed as if he were in complete denial that anything wrong has happened at all.

[Tanthallas]

I think the point, at least one of them, that he's trying to make is that many people are trying to impute wrongdoing onto every single member of TMO because of the actions of a single person (or a select few persons). If that is the case, then it would be equally valid to turn right back around and do the same thing to FE. Perhaps you and the majority of your leadership were unaware of such a tactic, just as some in TMO were. However, it is completely disingenuous to think that the abuse of IP exemptions has not occurred to some degree or another on both sides. That said, the degree of abuse may differ, but it has ben readily admitted that his abuses were likely the most severe to date.

What I find most interesting is that Elethia has gone so far as to agree with you that Aiaus should be punished. The only real difference seems to be in what the punishment should be (stripping the exemption and suspending versus banning or raid suspending the entire guild).

He's attempting to met you halfway and actually discuss and debate the issue, yet he is being dismissed as if he were in complete denial that anything wrong has happened at all.

Lots of words cant hide bullshit. Sorry.

Using an exploit to benefit an individual = punishment for the individual.

Using an exploit to benefit a guild - guild punishment.

There was a TMO officer present the entire time. Nothing was done. People can say whatever they want after the fact about how they feel; I dont care about how people feel, I care about how people act.

[Drob]

Your guild used his exploits to gain an advantage. Therefore, you should be raid suspended. Don't be retarded.

[Ele]

People who arent good at using words should use them less.

I bill per a word, so why would I choose to use fewer words when I can use more, i.e. be more verbose? Additionally, sometimes verbosity is required to accurately paint a picture of a scene or convey a message to desired audience.

As for the 'ignorance' of what can be done with IP exemptions - you are completely and utterly full of shit. I have NEVER seen anyone insta-poof dozens of times repeatedly without even an LD sign above their heads. EVER.

Interesting choice of words. "I have NEVER seen anyone insta-poof dozens of times repeatedly without even an LD sign above their heads. EVER."

You haven't "seen", so you don't deny that you knew it was possible.

You haven't seen "dozens of times". So you don't deny you have seen it fewer than a dozen times.

You haven't seen it "without even an LD sign". So you don't deny that you've seen it done with an LD tag.

Keep spinning Steve.

You seem to like to press irrelevant points, however, because the fact of the matter is that what 'everyone knows' is moot. Your cleric clearly abused his IP exemption. Not only did he abuse it, he used it to grief a raid over and over again. Not only did he grief a raid via exploiting continuously, he did it to benefit another raid.

You keep saying that he griefed your raid, yet you were the ones trying to kill him. Who is griefing who? Both sides if you ask me.

A TMO officer was there the whole time and did nothing. Saying after the fact that you do not agree with it means as little to me as your opinion on who knows this exploit existed.

Sorry you haven't gone through my entire post history and attempt to dismiss and characterize my statements as "after the fact", but I've been a vocal proponent of issues like this since joining the server in 2010.

[quido]

Let's try to reason and have a real discussion with Visceral - it works great.

[Ele]

Let's try to reason and have a real discussion with Visceral - it works great.

I might be breaking new ground here. Let's not backslide.

[Tanthallas]

Really?

I havent SEEN it; i never knew it was POSSIBLE.

I never BEFORE THIS TIME saw this occur.

I have indeed SEEN PEOPLE /Q and have an LD SIGN OVER THEIR HEAD.


?????

???

??

I really am not going to respond to the rest of your nonsensical bullshit, sorry.

[quido]

Peanut Gallery requesting comment from big Option!

[47shadesofgay]

Is that what Elethia and Frieza do now?

They reason with people by leveraging what they feel is their superior intellect and vocabulary in an attempt to shape whatever outcome befits them.

That's reasoning alright.

They are the true masters of weasel words and hyperbole in TMO. Alarti reasons more soundly.

[quido]

lol shades you such a relentless hater bro, I love it

[Ele]

Is that what Elethia and Frieza do now?

They reason with people by leveraging what they feel is their superior intellect and vocabulary in an attempt to shape whatever outcome befits them.

That's reasoning alright.

They are the true masters of weasel words and hyperbole in TMO. Alarti reasons more soundly.

The view is nice from the ivory tower.

[47shadesofgay]

I love the truth Jeremy! :)

[47shadesofgay]

The view is nice from the ivory tower.

It's good from the clouds also.

[finalgrunt]

Really?

I havent SEEN it; i never knew it was POSSIBLE.

I never BEFORE THIS TIME saw this occur.

I have indeed SEEN PEOPLE /Q and have an LD SIGN OVER THEIR HEAD.


?????

???

??

I really am not going to respond to the rest of your nonsensical bullshit, sorry.

Yep, same. Until these fraps, I always thought you would go LD for at least 20-30 seconds when /q and it could be extended if engaged.

[Ele]

Really?

I havent SEEN it; i never knew it was POSSIBLE.

I never BEFORE THIS TIME saw this occur.

I have indeed SEEN PEOPLE /Q and have an LD SIGN OVER THEIR HEAD.


?????

???

??

I really am not going to respond to the rest of your nonsensical bullshit, sorry.

Steve continues to show his ignorance of how the game works.

[Tanthallas]

Is that what Elethia and Frieza do now?

They reason with people by leveraging what they feel is their superior intellect and vocabulary in an attempt to shape whatever outcome befits them.

That's reasoning alright.

They are the true masters of weasel words and hyperbole in TMO. Alarti reasons more soundly.

Unfortunately for them, they only feel that it is superior. This problem is rampant around these parts; everyone 'feels' one way or the other, yet noone does shit about it.

People who are fooled by how they dress things up are not people that I would bother to argue with in the first place.

[Frogie305]

WTB Hand of the Reaper PST..

[Tanthallas]

Steve continues to show that I really dont have anything substantial to say

[quido]

I love the truth Jeremy! :)

Lucky for you I always speak the truth (obvious kidding aside), even to the point of my own serious inconvenience! Confirmed.

[47shadesofgay]

Unfortunately for them, they only feel that it is superior. This problem is rampant around these parts; everyone 'feels' one way or the other, yet noone does shit about it.

People who are fooled by how they dress things up are not people that I would bother to argue with in the first place.

In the same way that they know FE has also used this tactic to their guilds benefit..

A little proof would go a long way to shutting me up and making them look like anything they say is based in the realm of fact and not TMO-spin-fantasy.

FE has proof of TMO training, TMO has the only thing TMO has ever had.. words.

Quido - hardly. :)

[Ele]

Unfortunately for them, they only feel that it is superior. This problem is rampant around these parts; everyone 'feels' one way or the other, yet noone does shit about it.

People who are fooled by how they dress things up are not people that I would bother to argue with in the first place.

And you say I am nonsensical?

[falkun]

Steve continues to show his ignorance of how the game works.

Except instantly leaving the game world is NOT how the game works. On Live, and for most people on P99, if you LD your avatar sticks around in the game world for a while. Only persons with IP exemptions are able to have their avatar instantly leave the game world. The rest of us have to either camp (spend 30sec doing nothing but meditating) or risk our avatar dieing while the server controls it. The only people that could do this on Live were MQ users.

[Ele]

.

Oh editing quotes. How fancy.

[Lorraine]

Jeremy did you ask Eccezan how it tastes?

[Ele]

Except instantly leaving the game world is NOT how the game works. On Live, and for most people on P99, if you LD your avatar sticks around in the game world for a while. Only persons with IP exemptions are able to have their avatar instantly leave the game world. The rest of us have to either camp (spend 30sec doing nothing but meditating) or risk our avatar dieing while the server controls it. The only people that could do this on Live were MQ users.

I agree with your statement. However, I didn't make a distinction between how the server should work, and how it does work.

[quido]

Jeremy did you ask Eccezan how it tastes?

I don't get it. Please explain.

[Ele]

Gotta get to a meeting ! See you guys in a bit.

[falkun]

I agree with your statement. However, I didn't make a distinction between how the server should work, and how it does work.

No, you said how the game works. This is only possible due to 3rd-party programs on Live or specific server-code on P99. The game does not allow the actions you say Sloan is ignorant of, the server and/or 3rd-party programs does.

[47shadesofgay]

I agree with your statement. However, I didn't make a distinction between how the server should work, and how it does work.

Sounds like you believe you're playing project1999, while everyone else is here for EverQuest.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Lots of words cant hide bullshit. Sorry.

Using an exploit to benefit an individual = punishment for the individual.

Using an exploit to benefit a guild - guild punishment.

There was a TMO officer present the entire time. Nothing was done. People can say whatever they want after the fact about how they feel; I dont care about how people feel, I care about how people act.

Your guild used his exploits to gain an advantage. Therefore, you should be raid suspended. Don't be retarded.

Given the severity of a raid suspension, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it would be prudent for the decision maker to do some fact finding.

If it can be reasonably shown that the leadership knew and blessed the obvious abuse of an IP exemption, yes you can put a raid suspension onto the list of possible outcomes. That is not in dispute.

Note: I am NOT commenting as to whether or not TMO's leadership knew of and supported such uses. I was not there, and I am in no position to draw conclusions on that question of fact. I am merely elaborating on what I feel is due process in producing an outcome for the situation.

What I take issue with is the notion that incidental beneficiaries should be punished for actions that were not controlled by them. For example, if it is shown that Aiaus was acting along and surreptitiously, then it would be unfair to issue punishments to the rest of the guild. If you're going to assign vicarious liability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respondeat_superior), it must be fairly done.

A prime example of an unfair application would be Perun's ninja looting of CT. To punish all of IB for Perun's actions, which clearly exceeded his authority and right, was unjust. (See: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=566045&postcount=79)

[SamwiseRed]

Ele complains about non-classic features such as /shownames

defends not classic insta poof

interesting..

[getsome]

What I take issue with is the notion that incidental beneficiaries should be punished for actions that were not controlled by them. For example, if it is shown that Aiaus was acting along and surreptitiously, then it would be unfair to issue punishments to the rest of the guild. If you're going to assign vicarious liability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respondeat_superior), it must be fairly done.

A prime example of an unfair application would be Perun's ninja looting of CT. To punish all of IB for Perun's actions, which clearly exceeded his authority and right, was unjust. (See: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=566045&postcount=79)

Everquest is not ruled by a court of law.

MFer exploited and his guild directly benefited.

btw your examples are fucking stupid. so I am playing football and I commit an infraction. Instead of moving my team back 10 yards, just make me line up 10 yards back.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Ele complains about non-classic features such as /shownames

defends not classic insta poof

interesting..

He is discussing the mechanics, not defending him. I suggest you read the entire thread to fully understand his positions. Most notably these posts:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=893782&postcount=246
All IP exemptions should be erased, and reapplied for with stricter proof.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=894156&postcount=444
If you are wanting to talk about plugging (using /q and ip exemption and/or second account/computer) in general to remove yourself from an in-game situation in which you would otherwise die, then yes that should be an infraction. I don't think there is a disagreement between you and me on that point.

If you have seen my other posts in this thread, I said all ip exemptions should be wiped and reapplied for with much more stringent proof. Additionally, I would like to see /q leave you in game the full 30 seconds or 3 minutes if engaged/aggro even with an exemption. Another solution might be to hard code the server to not allow another account to log in within 30 seconds to 1 minute other another account coming from that ip address. This would still allow people to play together, but prevent quick disconnects and reconnects. However, transferring items between accounts gets negatively affected. But there should be some trade off to prevent abuse.

The transferability of ip exemptions (since it stays with the login account) also plays a role in account sales/trading being a bonus and advertised as such in the ECT forum. When it should be used for its intended purpose of allowing 2 or more people to play from the same location, which is otherwise blocked.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=894176#post894176
If the coding prevents the abuse in the first place, then it means less enforcement is needed. The enforcement is a finite resource.

[getsome]

As for Perun ninja looting CT.

Perun was a Raid Leader of IB.

Perun should have been banned and IB disbanded.

Or you get a server like we have today.

[finalgrunt]

...

What we have so far is proof that one of your member clearly cheated and exploited IP exemption to the benefit of your guild. That person should be banned, period.

When I don't follow TMO, is all the support to that person since the beginning.

"Everybody does it. Or at least on red. So it's ok!".

By doing so, you're all adding up to the guild suspension case. Because it's not just a solitary act. It now looks sanctionned by your leaders. And the risk seems too big to be worth defending such blatant exploit, at least from my point of view.

[finalgrunt]

As for Perun ninja looting CT.

Perun was a Raid Leader of IB.

Perun should have been banned and IB disbanded.

Or you get a server like we have today.

Disbanded? No. Suspended? Yep.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Everquest is not ruled by a court of law.

It is, however, run by individuals that openly welcome reasoned arguments. I understand that recrimination tends to be your first resort when you don't agree with something, but not everyone works that way.

MFer exploited and his guild directly benefited.

btw your examples are fucking stupid. so I am playing football and I commit an infraction. Instead of moving my team back 10 yards, just make me line up 10 yards back.

If a player commits an individual offense that is not within the scope of his duties, say wearing the wrong shoes with his uniform, he is individually punished. If the offense is committed within the scope of his duties, then the greater whole can be liable. I suggest you take the time to acquaint yourself with the topic in the link I provided. The concept might seem less "stupid" if you understood it.

[Mortiiss]

Could you please let us know TMO's official stance on the use of this exploit please Zeelot? We're dying to hear it.

[falkun]

If a player commits an individual offense that is not within the scope of his duties, say wearing the wrong shoes with his uniform, he is individually punished. If the offense is committed within the scope of his duties, then the greater whole can be liable. I suggest you take the time to acquaint yourself with the topic in the link I provided. The concept might seem less "stupid" if you understood it.

It was within Aiaus' scope of duties to stay alive and rez teamates. To stay alive, he Copperfielded, then he came back and to the best of his ability attempted to rez teamates. Your argument is moot.

[Frieza_Prexus]

What we have so far is proof that one of your member clearly cheated and exploited IP exemption to the benefit of your guild. That person should be banned, period.

When I don't follow TMO, is all the support to that person since the beginning.

"Everybody does it. Or at least on red. So it's ok!".

By doing so, you're all adding up to the guild suspension case. Because it's not just a solitary act. It now looks sanctionned by your leaders. And the risk seems too big to be worth defending such blatant exploit, at least from my point of view.

Aiaus should be clearly punished. I cannot account for the arguments made by my guildmates. I've said it before, but I clearly do not believe that two wrongs make a right here.

At no point have I justified the abuses in question. The point I made early on, which seems to be causing much contention, is that I said I am unsure if a permanent ban would be consistent with how similar cases have been handled. I never said a ban absolutely should be of the table, simply that I am unsure if it is warranted.

[getsome]

tmo cleric scope of duty = rez , heal

tmo cleric actions = rezzed tmo toons in VP

tmo cleric had the correct shoes on.

so thanks for agreeing with me. the offense was committed within the scope of his duties, thus the greater whole can be liable.

[quido]

Where's Option, FE officer, for comment? Option, I want to hear what you think about instapoofing characters.

Where is Maultriss, overthrown FE officer, for comment? Maultriss, I want to hear what you think about instapoofing characters.

[Drob]

If the TMO cleric used this exploit to avoid dying to a bunch of dragoons in OT, then he should get an individual punishment. Since he helped your guild gain an unfair advantage in a raid situation, your whole guild should be suspended.

It's pretty simple if you don't overthink it.

[Frieza_Prexus]

It was within Aiaus' scope of duties to stay alive and rez teamates. To stay alive, he Copperfielded, then he came back and to the best of his ability attempted to rez teamates. Your argument is moot.

Generally, under vicarious liability, illegal activities are never held to be under the scope of duties. This is essential to the concept. If a pest control worker sets a house on fire to get rid of all the pests, such an action was not within the scope of his duties.

Similarly, I suggest that a lone individual exploiting to assist the guild is not, and can never be, within such a scope. However, if it was blessed and supported by the leadership, that becomes a different story entirely in which guild-wide punishments can then be brought into play.

[Mortiiss]

Where's Option, FE officer, for comment? Option, I want to hear what you think about instapoofing characters.

Where is Maultriss, overthrown FE officer, for comment? Maultriss, I want to hear what you think about instapoofing characters.

Post a fraps, never seen this happen. I can tell you, historically speaking, we do not support cheating of any kind.

Now, with evidence in mind:

Could you please let us know TMO's official stance on the use of this exploit please Zeelot? We're dying to hear it.

[finalgrunt]

Aiaus should be clearly punished. I cannot account for the arguments made by my guildmates. I've said it before, but I clearly do not believe that two wrongs make a right here.

At no point have I justified the abuses in question. The point I made early on, which seems to be causing much contention, is that I said I am unsure if a permanent ban would be consistent with how similar cases have been handled. I never said a ban absolutely should be of the table, simply that I am unsure if it is warranted.

Well I'm sure many of your members condemn such behavior (I bet many weren't even aware of it). The issue is more about some of your leaders defending it here. Because they represent you and the rest of your guildmates.
It doesn't paint a good picture on the rest of you for sure.

As for what happens on red, I don't think it matters, it's a seperate server, with its own community and purpose. Devs will handle it the way they want. But on the blue server, which is a PvE server, exploits which give you an unexpectedly easy interaction with content has always been punished/forbidden.

[falkun]

Generally, under vicarious liability, illegal activities are never held to be under the scope of duties. This is essential to the concept. If a pest control worker sets a house on fire to get rid of all the pests, such an action was not within the scope of his duties.

Similarly, I suggest that a lone individual exploiting to assist the guild is not, and can never be, within such a scope. However, if it was blessed and supported by the leadership, that becomes a different story entirely in which guild-wide punishments can then be brought into play.

And now we're back to getsome's comment that your examples are utter bullshit. This is a game with rules and no real property is damaged because of someone's in-game actions. Thus getsome's NFL example is much more appropriate: you break an NFL rule on the field, your team backs up 10 yards, you don't wear your pink sweatbands during breast cancer month, the commish fines you (individually)

[quido]

Maybe we should just lie and claim we had no idea it was happening, like you! I have seen it with my own two eyes - sorry I don't have a fraps. If you thinking I'm making this up, you don't know me very well obviously.

Whatever happens with Aiaus, I hope this drama will help to eliminate the concocted double standard you guys are presenting. If you guys want to instapoof and the staff says that's Ok for now, let's do it - you'll get owned =) And if nobody can do it anymore, that's fine with me too - you'll have an even tougher time next time we train Nexona on you for hours and hours.

But stop with the fucking bullshit please, liars. Your people have been doing this for weeks and if you don't know that, you're maybe not liars but you're fucking retarded.

[47shadesofgay]

Given the severity of a raid suspension, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it would be prudent for the decision maker to do some fact finding.

If it can be reasonably shown that the leadership knew and blessed the obvious abuse of an IP exemption, yes you can put a raid suspension onto the list of possible outcomes. That is not in dispute.

Note: I am NOT commenting as to whether or not TMO's leadership knew of and supported such uses. I was not there, and I am in no position to draw conclusions on that question of fact. I am merely elaborating on what I feel is due process in producing an outcome for the situation.

What I take issue with is the notion that incidental beneficiaries should be punished for actions that were not controlled by them. For example, if it is shown that Aiaus was acting along and surreptitiously, then it would be unfair to issue punishments to the rest of the guild. If you're going to assign vicarious liability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respondeat_superior), it must be fairly done.

A prime example of an unfair application would be Perun's ninja looting of CT. To punish all of IB for Perun's actions, which clearly exceeded his authority and right, was unjust. (See: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=566045&postcount=79)

The actions of TMO members and leadership casts a direct light on every other member in the guild. The same applies to FE, and any other voluntary establishment.

It seems that TMO members such as yourself are continually bemoaning the fact that your peers and your guilds leadership actions have reflected upon you poorly and so you resort to coming to these very forums, to this specific sub-forum, designed for rants and flames, in order to defend yourselves and ask that you not be punished as a whole for an individuals action. Yet you still remain guilded.

Members such as yourself openly speak out and voice your dissent in matters that you don't agree with, yet you willingly continue to remain a member of this guild, knowing full well that it can only tarnish your very own reputation. Yet you still remain guilded.

So I ask you, being the reasonable man you claim to be, what exactly is it you want of us? Forgiveness for willingly being a member of a guild that exploits game mechanics, has a leader that openly states he loves training and griefing players from other guilds, and officers who openly flaunt your guild's coffers to taunt opposing players?

The only thing you come close to deserving deserve is is pity, but that would be unreasonable, since you could leave under your own will at any time.

You've made your bed, now lie in it.

[getsome]

Generally, under vicarious liability, illegal activities are never held to be under the scope of duties. This is essential to the concept. If a pest control worker sets a house on fire to get rid of all the pests, such an action was not within the scope of his duties.

Similarly, I suggest that a lone individual exploiting to assist the guild is not, and can never be, within such a scope. However, if it was blessed and supported by the leadership, that becomes a different story entirely in which guild-wide punishments can then be brought into play.

If you want to play lawyer, then how about we use racketeering as the charge.

Under the current federal doctrine of vicarious criminal liability,
an organization is held criminally responsible for crimes
committed by its agents within the scope of their employment and
with the intent to benefit the organization

See Developments in the Law-Corporate Crime: Regulating Corporate Behavior
Through Criminal Sanctions, 92 HARv. L. REV. 1227, 1247 (1979) [hereinafter Developments].
For a general discussion of this area, see
Brickey, Rethinking Corporate Liability Under the Model Penal Code, 19 RUTGERS L.J.
593, 629-34 (1988).

[47shadesofgay]

I'm still waiting to hear TMO's official stance on the use of this exploit.

The lack of response may well say more than an official statement ever could.

[Cochonou]

http://virginiavirtucon.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/thors-hammer.jpg?w=227&h=300

Enough talk, now let's give some judgment there. Uthgaard, where are you ??

[getsome]

Bring TMO up on RICO charges.

it does fit.

[Ele]

Ele complains about non-classic features such as /shownames

defends not classic insta poof

interesting..

Please show me where I defended it.

[quido]

ITT: Vigilante madbads resort to trying to do the staff's job for them.

[Ele]

it is about like when IB found out Tmo was using hoops to kill shit. When we started doing it, THEN it turned into a exploit.



You mean when TR got them nerfed.

Trakanon 8/24/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWX2adECIk8
"Let's get it nerfed"
"Use Hoops, Get it nerfed"
"Let's get Hoops nerfed"
"Get it nerfed, do it right now"
"So retarded"
"Yeah, that is why it needs to be nerfed"


Patch with Ivandyr's Hoop nerf 9/10/2011, two weeks later.
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48145

RIP where did you go? You never responded to defend your assertion.

[Hurley]

Jeremy you are better than this.

[quido]

I still don't see why they haven't reversed the overkill changes to lifetap resists.

[Ele]

ITT: Vigilante madbads resort to trying to do the staff's job for them.

That's even the first raid rule.

Players are not permitted to take the law into their own hands.

[falkun]

This is RNF, "the court of public opinion" if you will. I, and I hope the others that post here, do not expect the staff to make decisions based upon this thread. But winning the courtroom of public opinion pays off in its own ways, as TMO's once-mighty RNF troll-force understood before they backed themselves into the corner they are now in.

[quido]

Jeremy you are better than this.

Can I app FE on my necro please? Richest twink on the server - I will bring you great prestige!

[47shadesofgay]

Ele could you please explain the point you're trying to make.

TMO started using hoops to down raid targets, IB thought this was wrong (rightly) so in order to accelerate their demise they decided to use them just as blatantly until the serverstaff took notice and fixed them. That is what your proof shows.

What else were you getting at?

[quido]

I would rather admit that one of our members is showboating dipshit than lie about 30 members in vehement and pathetic denial.

[Frieza_Prexus]

And now we're back to getsome's comment that your examples are utter bullshit. This is a game with rules and no real property is damaged because of someone's in-game actions. Thus getsome's NFL example is much more appropriate: you break an NFL rule on the field, your team backs up 10 yards, you don't wear your pink sweatbands during breast cancer month, the commish fines you (individually)

In getsome's NFL analogy the rules are also clearly spelled out for each specific situation. We do not enjoy the luxury of such clearly defined rules to govern this specific situation. (If there are clear sentencing guidelines for this situation, then I am unaware and would amend my arguments in light of them).

My analogy was used for a very specific reason. That is, this appears to be a novel situation in which punishment precedence seems opaque at best. It stands to reason, that perhaps there is a preexisting concept that has already been well-developed that we may draw from. It is a cop out to think that just because it's a "game" that the concept cannot be applied.

Is my example necessarily more valid than any of the others presented? Emphatically, no. It was presented as material to consider and ruminate upon so that the discussion might be better equipped to handle the situation by understanding analogous concepts.

[47shadesofgay]

I would rather admit that one of our members is showboating dipshit than lie about 30 members in vehement and pathetic denial.

Don't mince words, you would rather do whatever it took to secure pixels. Always have, and always will.

[quido]

TR was responsible for the public RnF cry campaign about them that catalyzed their nerfage.

It's unfortunate that TR couldn't fight Trak without wiping for several weeks after the nerf, though.

[Lorraine]

Maybe we should just lie and claim we had no idea it was happening, like you! I have seen it with my own two eyes - sorry I don't have a fraps. If you thinking I'm making this up, you don't know me very well obviously.

Whatever happens with Aiaus, I hope this drama will help to eliminate the concocted double standard you guys are presenting. If you guys want to instapoof and the staff says that's Ok for now, let's do it - you'll get owned =) And if nobody can do it anymore, that's fine with me too - you'll have an even tougher time next time we train Nexona on you for hours and hours.

But stop with the fucking bullshit please, liars. Your people have been doing this for weeks and if you don't know that, you're maybe not liars but you're fucking retarded.


This is pointless, the precedent has been set YEARS ago. If you catch someone in the act, eyewitnessing isn't enough - bring fraps, screenshots, logs and the kitchen sink along. An alarming percentage of people in this server have witnessed punishable grief, yet pleas fall on deaf ears because they have no 'proof'. And now you're asking people to take you for your word.

TL;DR

If you WANTED to play by the book/rules, and actually rub it into FE (or XXX or YYY or who ever accused you of wrongdoing), you would have petitioned/asked the staff about this "creative use" of IP exemption YEARS ago, since you admit knowing it for that long. Just in case some cameraman happens to lurk around when you do it. But you alreay knew what the answer would be, right?

[quido]

Don't mince words, you would rather do whatever it took to secure pixels. Always have, and always will.

That's not really true, shades, and you have no good reason to believe that. I may be a cutthroat competitor but I desire no ill-gained victories - they're nothing to be proud of.

[47shadesofgay]

TR was responsible for the public RnF cry campaign about them that catalyzed their nerfage.

It's unfortunate that TR couldn't fight Trak without wiping for several weeks after the nerf, though.

You know the reason for this and it has nothing to do with hoops, considering TR was killing Trak long before the 3 weeks hoops were a factor.

So why don't you come out and say it?

[Nerosys]

Maybe we should just lie and claim we had no idea it was happening, like you! I have seen it with my own two eyes - sorry I don't have a fraps. If you thinking I'm making this up, you don't know me very well obviously.

Whatever happens with Aiaus, I hope this drama will help to eliminate the concocted double standard you guys are presenting. If you guys want to instapoof and the staff says that's Ok for now, let's do it - you'll get owned =) And if nobody can do it anymore, that's fine with me too - you'll have an even tougher time next time we train Nexona on you for hours and hours.

But stop with the fucking bullshit please, liars. Your people have been doing this for weeks and if you don't know that, you're maybe not liars but you're fucking retarded.


You are full of shit Jeremy straight up... you know why i know you are full of shit ?

1. Because at first we had no idea what was going on it wasn't until he did this repeatedly and we started breaking down in our heads how it was possible that we started piecing shit together.

2. TMO has never ever refrained from posting fraps or pics or bitching and complaining at anyone that has wronged them especially in regards to raiding, so now you are coming here and saying that all of a sudden you guys have no proof of us doing this but you want us to take your word for it ? Go fuck yourself, you guys do not deserve any freebies as alarti has put it so many times to us. prove it or stfu.

3. This shit is pathetic, you got caught man up. You say you want competition but everytime you get it, you resort to cheating and pulling cheap shit like this the only difference is now we will record all of it and post it for everyone to see, this was never done in the past be sure that these tactics will not go overlooked anymore.


you saying you've seen it with your own two eyes means less than nothing to anyone other than a TMO member so you might as well give it up.


Rotokan

[47shadesofgay]

That's not really true, shades, and you have no good reason to believe that. I may be a cutthroat competitor but I desire no ill-gained victories - they're nothing to be proud of.

You seem fairly proud of the fact you guys were able to secure a Xygoz kill despite a member of your guild using a known exploit.

I have every reason to believe what I say. Prove me wrong.

[getsome]

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[falkun]

In getsome's NFL analogy the rules are also clearly spelled out for each specific situation. We do not enjoy the luxury of such clearly defined rules to govern this specific situation. (If there are clear sentencing guidelines for this situation, then I am unaware and would amend my arguments in light of them).

My analogy was used for a very specific reason. That is, this appears to be a novel situation in which punishment precedence seems opaque at best. It stands to reason, that perhaps there is a preexisting concept that has already been well-developed that we may draw from. It is a cop out to think that just because it's a "game" that the concept cannot be applied.

Is my example necessarily more valid than any of the others presented? Emphatically, no. It was presented as material to consider and ruminate upon so that the discussion might be better equipped to handle the situation by understanding analogous concepts.
I've already spelled out the rules you are unaware of:
Global rules (read: enforceable in VP) concerning multi-boxing (IP exemptions) and exploiting:
Originally Posted by Rogean View Post
2+ Boxing
Playing more than one character per server is not allowed and will be strictly enforced. The server will not allow you to log in with more than 1 account per public internet connection. Those attempting to do so will be met with an error message at the loginserver that states there has been a temporary IP block. If you legitimately have more than one real person playing from your connection, you may petition to be excluded from this limitation via an IP Exemption request in the petition forums. Please see the Support section of this guide for more information.

The server staff has many tools available at their disposal to root out people who violate this rule. Those caught will most likely be subject to a permanent ban (GM/Guide discretion).

Third Party Tools, Exploiting
We do not tolerate cheating on Project 1999. Any program that provides an unintended advantage or gleams access to information not otherwise available is very strictly prohibited. Please be aware that while other EQEmulator servers may allow the use of such programs, we do not. We have many systems in place to detect the presence and usage of these programs passively, with regular sweeps to purge users that have utilized them. This is typically a permanent ban.

Do not make the mistake that you may get away with it because you used it on Live Everquest. We put much more effort into the detection of these utilities than SOE ever did. You will be caught and banned if you use them.

The same holds true for exploiting. If you have the slightest doubt that what you are doing may not be intended, please cease immediately and seek clarification from the server staff. Failure to do so and discovery of your actions will lead to disciplinary action.
Abusing IP exemption: permanent ban
Exploiting to provide and unintended advantage: permanent ban
Doing the above to provide an unintended advantage for an entire guild: Raid suspension

[Ele]

Ele could you please explain the point you're trying to make.

TMO started using hoops to down raid targets, IB thought this was wrong (rightly) so in order to accelerate their demise they decided to use them just as blatantly until the serverstaff took notice and fixed them. That is what your proof shows.

What else were you getting at?

Are you RIP?

RIP made a statement that TMO cried that TR's use of Ivandyr's Hoops was an exploit and that TMO got it nerfed. Which is just incorrect.

Accelerate whose demise, the Hoop?

[quido]

I've never come to these forums lying about facts. Go ahead and disbelieve me if you want, but I'm telling the truth. FE abuses IP exemptions as much as or more than us.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble - just pointing out why lying hypocrites you are.

I hope at the end of this we're all held to the same standard =P

[quido]

You seem fairly proud of the fact you guys were able to secure a Xygoz kill despite a member of your guild using a known exploit.

I have every reason to believe what I say. Prove me wrong.

I don't dispute that Aiaus is retarded - I do however dispute that his retarded presence made any real difference in anyone's ability to kill Xygoz. Sloan is lying about what happened on the ledge. Wtb ledge cam

[47shadesofgay]

Are you RIP?

RIP made a statement that TMO cried that TR's use of Ivandyr's Hoops was an exploit and that TMO got it nerfed. Which is just incorrect.

Accelerate whose demise, the Hoop?

No I'm not RIP, just confused by what you were getting at with your post.

From RIP's post he doesn't mention anything about TMO crying that TR's use of hoops was an exploit, and in fact I thought he meant the serverstaff were the ones who thought that. This theory would be supported by the proof you posted stating that was TR's aim.

Hence my confusion.

And yes, I meant the demise of the hoop as a viable tactic.

[47shadesofgay]

I don't dispute that Aiaus is retarded - I do however dispute that his retarded presence made any real difference in anyone's ability to kill Xygoz. Sloan is lying about what happened on the ledge. Wtb ledge cam

From what I gather he was training FE and rezzing TMO for hours in VP.. how does this not have any real-difference on either parties ability to kill Xygoz?

Him doing nothing more than showing up and casting 1 heal, rezzing 1 individual, being on any mobs agro list must lead to some tangible effect on something, so I'm not understanding..

[Cochonou]

http://virginiavirtucon.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/thors-hammer.jpg?w=227&h=300

Enough talk, now let's give some judgment there. Uthgaard, where are you ??

Quoting this guy cause he is right !

[quido]

From what I gather he was training FE and rezzing TMO for hours in VP.. how does this not have any real-difference on either parties ability to kill Xygoz?

That's not true. Aiaus was logged once or twice by Pennand to rez people before Aiaus was awake - he never used his instapoof ability then. After the real Aiaus got on and rezzed Marley for me and an enchanter who just wanted to camp, he spent 20 or 30 minutes just running around the ledge antagonizing FE's shitty monks. He never trained them, he just stole their attention and disappeared a few times. The claim that he spent hours exploiting and rezzing people to cockblock FE is a blatant lie. It came to an end when Trak popped. No one will believe me without 3 hours of fraps though, right?

[quido]

Also, considering you supposedly spent HOURS observing him doing this, you present a shockingly small amount of evidence towards this claim. Could we see some more frapses that you have that demonstrate him abusing his exemption across a number of hours?

[47shadesofgay]

That's not true. Aiaus was logged once or twice by Pennand to rez people before Aiaus was awake - he never used his instapoof ability then. After the real Aiaus got on and rezzed Marley for me and an enchanter who just wanted to camp, he spent 20 or 30 minutes just running around the ledge antagonizing FE's shitty monks. He never trained them, he just stole their attention and disappeared a few times. The claim that he spent hours exploiting and rezzing people to cockblock FE is a blatant lie. It came to an end when Trak popped. No one will believe me without 3 hours of fraps though, right?

I'll admit that I don't disbelieve anything you said. However the part in bold is exactly what taints the kill, regardless of what goes on around it. He was exploiting, and some benefit was gained, even if it were small.

[Godefroi]

That's not true. Aiaus was logged once or twice by Pennand to rez people before Aiaus was awake - he never used his instapoof ability then. After the real Aiaus got on and rezzed Marley for me and an enchanter who just wanted to camp, he spent 20 or 30 minutes just running around the ledge antagonizing FE's shitty monks. He never trained them, he just stole their attention and disappeared a few times. The claim that he spent hours exploiting and rezzing people to cockblock FE is a blatant lie. It came to an end when Trak popped. No one will believe me without 3 hours of fraps though, right?

In other words : he cheated just a bit and it makes it ok to you.

Condoning cheating once again, gg simple mind lol

[47shadesofgay]

Also, considering you supposedly spent HOURS observing him doing this, you present a shockingly small amount of evidence towards this claim. Could we see some more frapses that you have that demonstrate him abusing his exemption across a number of hours?

Why does the duration matter? I'm just repeating what others have stated.

By your own admission, it occurred, and some benefit was produced.

Be it an hour, a minute, a second, a year, I don't care, and that's irrelevant lol.

[Ele]

This is RNF, "the court of public opinion" if you will. I, and I hope the others that post here, do not expect the staff to make decisions based upon this thread. But winning the courtroom of public opinion pays off in its own ways, as TMO's once-mighty RNF troll-force understood before they backed themselves into the corner they are now in.

But none of this is supposed to be taken seriously, right?

oh god have I been doing this wrong.




:p

[Godefroi]

what jeremy veils is that Aiaus only cheated 40 mins, those 40 minutes or so that he was the only rezzer alive to keep TMO from being entirely dead from the ledge, hence saving your ability to rez teainers up there, subsequently giving you the opportunity to train FE.

keep soining and deflecting lol, just makes you look even more desperate

[getsome]

Are you RIP?

RIP made a statement that TMO cried that TR's use of Ivandyr's Hoops was an exploit and that TMO got it nerfed. Which is just incorrect.

Accelerate whose demise, the Hoop?

Actually he did not say TMO cried. you don't like to be misquoted, stop doing it to others.

it is about like when IB found out Tmo was using hoops to kill shit. When we started doing it, THEN it turned into a exploit.

FE if i were you i would just get everyone a IP exemption and never die to TMO trainers ever again in VP

As for RIP, I am pretty sure he is Beaner, who was redneck, who was in IB , who was in DA who helped them avoid clean sweeps by teaming up with Jeremy to kill nagafen,

[quido]

That's not true, Visceral - why do you make repeated arguments based on lies when your own guildies have already contradicted what you say?

I have stated and Sloan admitted that Marley was alive on the ledge. We had other people camped there who were offline. Kingore was in the zone and alive and I was at the VP entrance in skyfire (with my corpse at the entrance inside) when Trakanon popped.

FE is just mad that 20 hours of effort the last three days has yielded them zero kills in VP.

[quido]

RestInPeaceInPeace has gotta be someone retarded.

[47shadesofgay]

RestInPeaceInPeace has gotta be someone retarded.

Pretty sure it's rellapse

[47shadesofgay]

I thought that was pretty obvious..

[quido]

Seems a fitting hypothesis

[Susano]

FE abuses IP exemptions as much as or more than us.

I'd be interested to hear numbers on how many people in both guilds have IP exemptions.

The exploits afforded by it are not limited to Copperfielding, it also gives a distinct advantage to swapping accounts which is very important in the p99 raid scene. It would be very telling if any guild had a very high percentage of accounts flagged for IP exemption, unless we are all to assume EQ and p99 are so wildly popular that each household has multiple people playing.

I agree with some in this thread that all exemptions should be revoked until such a time as the devs can implement the changes needed to remove the exploits associated with them.

[quido]

Relapsee would probably have joined FE by now if he hadn't finally realized that everything he touches turns to shit.

Thanks, Relapsee, for putting the destruction of TMO before your own derpy aspirations.

[quido]

I agree with some in this thread that all exemptions should be revoked until such a time as the devs can implement the changes needed to remove the exploits associated with them.

How am I gonna play at Sloan's house then? :(

[Godefroi]

its ok jeremy, try harder lol.

marley was alive and getting repeatedly rezzed by aiaus, yes. whats your point ? he was getting rezzed by your cheating cleric, or was there an invisible cleric rezzing him that we didnt see ?

stop being mad cause you didnt sleep and are one of the last TMO that cares to spend hours in VP to cockblock amiguito.

even with your cheating cleric and your fail trains we managed two clean engages, we wiped 100% because of us and only 20 folks.

keep trying patrick :P

[Cochonou]

http://virginiavirtucon.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/thors-hammer.jpg?w=227&h=300

Enough talk, now let's give some judgment there. Uthgaard, where are you ??

[Ele]

As for RIP, I am pretty sure he is Beaner, who was redneck, who was in IB , who was in DA who helped them avoid clean sweeps by teaming up with Jeremy to kill nagafen,

We came to the same conclusion then. :D

[Susano]

FE is just mad that 20 hours of effort the last three days has yielded them zero kills in VP.

Finally having proof that TMO is a dirty guild is better than any dragon kill I've ever experienced on P99.

[quido]

Btw, Visceral, this is me on adderall! I don't need stimulants to play Everquest - just weed. I think it's funny though that you point the finger at me - someone with a somewhat regular sleep schedule and a real job - when people like Steve are true fiends and stay awake for days at a time. Last time I dosed was Monday, the only day I worked besides today this week.

[Godefroi]

Im smiling at TMOs making fun of FE's wipes, they have twice the numbers for now, they have been there a whole year unchallenged, we entered wednesday, 2nd attempt at a dragon with trains and first kill.

ok lads lol

[Lorraine]

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/2936/pirateschooljustabitofw.jpg

[Godefroi]

Im smiling at TMOs making fun of FE's wipes, they have twice the numbers for now, they have been there a whole year unchallenged, we entered wednesday, 2nd attempt at a dragon with trains and first kill.

ok lads lol

[Lorraine]

^ We're all pals till the book comes out, right Jeremy?

[quido]

Visceral I swear you don't even read people's posts, or if you do you forget them 5 minutes later.

I know it helps your case to say that Marley was repeatedly rezzed by Aiaus for hours. Unfortunately for you, it's a lie! Let's see some fraps proof, jackass. Why so little fraps for so many hours of exploits?

[Godefroi]

Btw, Visceral, this is me on adderall! I don't need stimulants to play Everquest - just weed. I think it's funny though that you point the finger at me - someone with a somewhat regular sleep schedule and a real job - when people like Steve are true fiends and stay awake for days at a time. Last time I dosed was Monday, the only day I worked besides today this week.

No need to justify yourself son, your life is yours and Im no one to judge you!

When you become too poty you just get a deserved slap on your little computer nerd ass cheeks ;)

[Godefroi]

Visceral I swear you don't even read people's posts, or if you do you forget them 5 minutes later.

I know it helps your case to say that Marley was repeatedly rezzed by Aiaus for hours. Unfortunately for you, it's a lie! Let's see some fraps proof, jackass. Why so little fraps for so many hours of exploits?

read whatI said, I said about 40 mins rofl.

if you advise other people to read your posts, do the same about theirs gringo

[quido]

Visceral let's trade penis pics

[maverixdamighty]

ITT: TMO justifying cheating.

[Godefroi]

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/2936/pirateschooljustabitofw.jpg

lol good one m8

[Godefroi]

Visceral let's trade penis pics

i only hit on fake eq chicks like elebrewia

[quido]

I play Glitterati sometimes...

[Frieza_Prexus]

The actions of TMO members and leadership casts a direct light on every other member in the guild. The same applies to FE, and any other voluntary establishment.

It seems that TMO members such as yourself are continually bemoaning the fact that your peers and your guilds leadership actions have reflected upon you poorly and so you resort to coming to these very forums, to this specific sub-forum, designed for rants and flames, in order to defend yourselves and ask that you not be punished as a whole for an individuals action. Yet you still remain guilded.

Members such as yourself openly speak out and voice your dissent in matters that you don't agree with, yet you willingly continue to remain a member of this guild, knowing full well that it can only tarnish your very own reputation. Yet you still remain guilded.

So I ask you, being the reasonable man you claim to be, what exactly is it you want of us? Forgiveness for willingly being a member of a guild that exploits game mechanics, has a leader that openly states he loves training and griefing players from other guilds, and officers who openly flaunt your guild's coffers to taunt opposing players?

The only thing you come close to deserving deserve is is pity, but that would be unreasonable, since you could leave under your own will at any time.

You've made your bed, now lie in it.

Why? Because I enjoy it. Sure, I take issue with a lot of things, but I voluntarily associate because I find net benefit in it. Of course, I suspect you already knew this; you just wanted to frame the situation as if I were coming here for some sort of absolution. I desire nothing from you, least of all pardon.

@Falkun: I do not dispute that Aiaus clearly abused his exemption. The question is what is to be done in this situation, as there is some precedence for the stripping of exemptions, but not (to my knowledge) the banning of characters for such a use. This may not fall under the two boxing punishments because of this statement:

http://i.imgur.com/h5A4b84.png

Note, the statement does NOT excuse what was done, it merely, to me, raises a question of what is the proper punishment in light of no explicit sentencing guideline and in consideration of the existence of precedence (albeit, from Red).

If you want to play lawyer, then how about we use racketeering as the charge.

Under the current federal doctrine of vicarious criminal liability,
an organization is held criminally responsible for crimes
committed by its agents within the scope of their employment and
with the intent to benefit the organization

See Developments in the Law-Corporate Crime: Regulating Corporate Behavior
Through Criminal Sanctions, 92 HARv. L. REV. 1227, 1247 (1979) [hereinafter Developments].
For a general discussion of this area, see
Brickey, Rethinking Corporate Liability Under the Model Penal Code, 19 RUTGERS L.J.
593, 629-34 (1988).

I'm going to stop you before you hurt yourself. I suspect you did not read the article that you just lifted the text straight out of. (found here: http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1911&context=lawreview) Which is titled: Vicarious Criminal Liability of Organizations: RICO as an Example of a Flawed Principle in Practice.

If you had taken the time to even read the title of the work after you blindly Googled, you would note that the publication was arguing strongly against strict liability for employers/principles for ALL actions of the employees/agents. All I did was cite an analogous principle to persuasively support my point. In trying to one up me, you cited a publication that argues my very same point: blanket liability for the actions of an individual who has no blessing from his leadership can be manifestly unjust.

RICO is not immediately analogous as it requires long term patterns of abuse, whereas the principle I cited was immediately applicable via analogy.

[47shadesofgay]

Why? Because I enjoy it. Sure, I take issue with a lot of things, but I voluntarily associate because I find net benefit in it. Of course, I suspect you already knew this; you just wanted to frame the situation as if I were coming here for some sort of absolution. I desire nothing from you, least of all pardon.

@Falkun: I do not dispute that Aiaus clearly abused his exemption. The question is what is to be done in this situation, as there is some precedence for the stripping of exemptions, but not (to my knowledge) the banning of characters for such a use. This may not fall under the two boxing punishments because of this statement:

http://i.imgur.com/h5A4b84.png

Note, the statement does NOT excuse what was done, it merely, to me, raises a question of what is the proper punishment in light of no explicit sentencing guideline and in consideration of the existence of precedence (albeit, from Red).



I'm going to stop you before you hurt yourself. I suspect you did not read the article that you just lifted the text straight out of. (found here: http://scholarship.law.stjohns.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1911&context=lawreview) Which is titled: Vicarious Criminal Liability of Organizations: RICO as an Example of a Flawed Principle in Practice.

If you had taken the time to even read the title of the work after you blindly Googled, you would note that the publication was arguing strongly against strict liability for employers/principles for ALL actions of the employees/agents. All I did was cite an analogous principle to persuasively support my point. In trying to one up me, you cited a publication that argues my very same point: blanket liability for the actions of an individual who has no blessing from his leadership can be manifestly unjust.

RICO is not immediately analogous as it requires long term patterns of abuse, whereas the principle I cited was immediately applicable via analogy.

Make no mistake, I know it's not me personally you want the pardon from, but it would be incredibly disingenuous given the post I was replying to and indeed many others you have made on this forum and in the past that it is a pardon and pity that you are after.

I'm sure that in the end you will get neither. Enjoy those net benefits. :)

[47shadesofgay]

that it is not a pardon*

[falkun]

You can argue the precedent for punishments until Judgment day, Xasten. I've already listed the rules and the punishments Rogean has told abusers/exploiters/cheaters they should expect. If Aiaus and TMO get anything less then they should thank the mercy of P99's CSR.

Since you already have and accept the justification for the individual ban, you just need the justification for how an individual ban can be extrapolated to a guild suspension. A train brought by a single person has caused guild suspensions outside of VP. Now VP is different, training rules do not apply, but global rules are applicable even in VP. That is the justification for a guild suspension. "May Sirken have mercy on your soul."

[47shadesofgay]

I also love that you are seemingly setting up the GM to get your desired ruling and outcome, as evidenced by your tells in game.

If I were Sirken, I would be furious with you for playing me.

[quido]

I bet zone/worldserver logs have evidence of people instapoofing. I bet Sloan's tune would change if the staff could confirm this point.