Endurance Questions

[Feittin]

As mentioned in the title, I would like to discuss regarding how endurance is currently working on this server. This is not meant to suggest that the current logic should be changed in anyway, but rather to understand what is already implemented so that myself and others can adjust our strategies accordingly. This is probably going to be a long read - beware!!

Background:
I am playing a now 16 gnome warrior on the server. I am using duel wield and in my primary I have a bull smasher and in my secondary a fine steel short sword. At level 13 when I received duel wield, I almost immediately used these two weapons and being a gnome my DW skill was maxed for the level after just a night or two. During level 13, 14, and even half way into 15 (was a great xp group, so I didn't run to train 1 point in DA) I had no endurance issues.

Last night I logged in a trained several points in DA. Someone auctioned cheap bronze greaves and I bought my first bronze piece so far. Most of my armor is banded with a patchwork piece or two yet. At this point I found an xp group in nro at a derv camp. When we first started we just had a few people and pulling mobs was slow going, and my endurance seemed to be holding out ok. I started to see some triple hit rounds even. After a little while, we were a full group and my DA was maxed for my level and we were pulling one after another. This is when I started having really big problems with my endurance. My endurance was ALWAYS below 50% after a pull. By the time the next pull arrived, I would only be around 60% endurance and quickly drop back down to < 40%.

As others have commented previously, there seems to be a BIG (double maybe?) increase in delay once endurance is < 50%, and it seems with this delay my endurance will hover around 30 - 40% for a while. Probably due to swinging slower costing less endurance. Being less than 50% endurance right now reduces DPS to a pitifully small amount. Someone else was pulling, so I was able to sit between pulls but the endurance regen was very slow and even have a couple minutes between pulls only allowed me to get back up to around 60% or sometimes if I was lucky around 65%. At the end of the fight I would be back to 30% or so.

So the end result was that the entire night I was stuck at around 40% endurance, and it was a constant battle of trying to get my endurance up. Now the obvious course would be to use a different weapon or 2H to try to reduce the endurance usage, but rather than just doing that I started thinking about what could have caused the big change from level 14 to level 15 and want to discuss the details to understand better what is impacting endurance.

Here are the factors I have thought of so far that may have resulted in the big change to my endurance cost:
1) Double Attack - just trained this skill last night, and this seems like it should be the main reason for this change. This would mean that endurance cost is being considered for every attack, both DW and DA. So if DW and DA both succeed, my endurance adjustment should be something like: endurance = endurance - (4 attacks * endurance cost)

Of course, endurance cost should very according to the weapon and perhaps other factors...

2) First Bronze Armor piece - do different types of armor have different endurance costs associated with them that are considered when attacking? Meaning that purchasing my first bronze armor piece resulted in additional endurance cost?

If this is the case, then I would probably go back to banded until I can find something with a smaller endurance cost.

3) Endurance Regen Rate - what affects the endurance regen rate? Last night before logging I decided to buy two +2 STA earrings to see if it would help, but soon realized that I wasn't sure if it impacted the regen rate or not. Or whether it even impacted the total endurance pool. The hope is that by buying some gear I could offset the endurance costs.


Investigation...
Finally I decided to grab the project eq svn source and started digging through the code to see what I could find there. So my code below is just based on that code since I do not have access to p1999's source.

Attack Endurance Costs:
I have looked through the code, and was not able to find any endurance cost during the attacking routine. I didn't have VS loaded up on the machine I was on and just used notepad to search through the files so I may have missed it. Anyone have insight into this? Is endurance cost during attacking unique just to p1999's source (wouldn't think so...)? I would like to know what factors it is considering (such as armor type/weight) when determine the endurance cost for each attack. I see that it is using a common Attack routine for both regular attacks and DA/DW, so I'm assuming the endurance cost routine should be in there and that it happens for all of them as suggested in point #1.

Endurance Regen Rate:
Found the following code for endurance regen rate:

int32 level=GetLevel();
int32 regen = 0;

regen = int(level*4/10) + 2;
regen += spellbonuses.EnduranceRegen + itembonuses.EnduranceRegen;
	
regen = (regen * RuleI(Character, EnduranceRegenMultiplier)) / 100;

SetEndurance(GetEndurance() + regen);

So if the above logic is the same as in p1999 then that means that STA is not even considered when determining endurance regen rate. Instead it's based solely on your level. So according to that formula then for level 15 and level 16 I should have regened the same amount of endurance (8). This is 1 more than I regened at lvl 14.

The code above also brings up more questions for me: what spells and items have endurance regen? How to tell if items have this effect (does it show in the description as +Endurance Regen or something)? Does anyone know of any examples? Or is this item endurance regen bonus used to handle different armor types as I mentioned - where bronze armor type could actually have a negative endurance regen associated with it? I am unclear how the mechanic is being used.

There is another routine regarding buffs that cost endurance I noticed, but I'm assuming that "buffs" is not referring to traditional caster type buffs but rather to rogues sneaking/hiding, etc. Anyone more familiar with the code that has some idea on this?

Endurance Pool:
Looks like stamina is not even specially considered when determining the max endurance value. Here is the code:

        int Stats = GetSTR()+GetSTA()+GetDEX()+GetAGI();

	int LevelBase = GetLevel() * 15;

	int at_most_800 = Stats;
	if(at_most_800 > 800)
		at_most_800 = 800;
	
	int Bonus400to800 = 0;
	int HalfBonus400to800 = 0;
	int Bonus800plus = 0;
	int HalfBonus800plus = 0;
	
	int BonusUpto800 = int( at_most_800 / 4 ) ;
	if(Stats > 400) {
		Bonus400to800 = int( (at_most_800 - 400) / 4 );
		HalfBonus400to800 = int( max( ( at_most_800 - 400 ), 0 ) / 8 );
		
		if(Stats > 800) {
			Bonus800plus = int( (Stats - 800) / 8 ) * 2;
			HalfBonus800plus = int( (Stats - 800) / 16 );
		}
	}
	int bonus_sum = BonusUpto800 + Bonus400to800 + HalfBonus400to800 + Bonus800plus + HalfBonus800plus;
	
	max_end = LevelBase;

	//take all of the sums from above, then multiply by level*0.075
	max_end += ( bonus_sum * 3 * GetLevel() ) / 40;
	
	max_end += spellbonuses.Endurance + itembonuses.Endurance;

So if STR, STA, DEX, and AGI are equally considered for endurance as in the formula above then it looks like buying my +2 STA earings was a bad investment in money, and I should have instead bought +2 STR earrings which not only would have helped increase my max hit chance, but would have had the same effect as the +2 STA for my endurance pool.

This was my first time looking through the code, and I'm not sure how different the p1999 source is so I'm not sure the code references are even valid. If it is, then at least it helps us to make some educated decisions.

Any thoughts? Hoping to get some more information from the community and the devs on how endurance is currently working.

[Aeolwind]

Moved to appropriate forum.

[Nirgon]

bump.

Currently spells that give stamina (endurance whatever you wanna call it) are worthless here [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

I'd like to bump this for a possible fix.

Obviously meleeing should drain your stamina, so should swimming and jumping.

I recall and others do as well that heavier melee weapons should drain your stamina.

However, here's the room for discussion and research.

1. About how much should drain per swing and how much based on the weight of the weapon?

2. What should the results of being out of stamina be?

Some recall being completely out of yellow meter that you should run a bit slower. I remember leaving just a little bit of yellow left in my meter when jumping to chase someone maybe this was the case.

When you are swimming, some say you shouldn't be able to move when in water when out of endurance. Others say you should start drowning when it hits 0.

When you are meleeing, should it have an impact on your hit rate? Damage? Attack speed? Melee stats if you are completely out of stamina?

3. Spells like acumen, augment/augmentation, invigorate and others in the lines of stamina recovery are pretty worthless here and I never see them used. This is more just addressing the issue that there are spells in the game that were quite valuable for the reason they provided stamina. Your character should need these spells to stay at full strength and gives that immersive feeling that your character runs out of steam performing actions.

4. How many endurance should stamina give if any during this time line? Should STR determine how much endurance is spent swinging (don't think so).

Feel free to drop hard evidence or just your 2cp.

[Thulack]

and dont forget if your hungry you shouldnt regen stamina

[Tupakk]

My sta drops when jump around like a tard, and it doesn't fill if I have no food and water. So I think it is working pretty well.

[Daldaen]

Allakhazam - Wurmslayer

Well i got a 45 warrior on Lanys and i used it and hit regurally in the 80-100s with it. There is ONE MAJOR PROBLEM with the WS though. Did anyone notice the fact that its a 1hs weapon and weighs 15.0? It is one of the biggest Stamina killers in the game.

Using what for a weapon? With a Wurm my 23rd level barb warrior hits between high thirtys and low sixties. Dual weilding it and a Cystalized Shadow long sword I'm having little trouble soloing hard blue mobs, and the stamina drain isn't a problem.

Also it eats your stamina in no time at all so either use it on a ranger or be in a group that can cast invigor on you cuz wt 15 is hvy for any weapon especially a 1hs

for some reason i thought i saw a ranged stat on the picure (40 range comes to mind).
about stamina: i have heard from a few sources if you get your stamina above 100 (or is it 105) that even if your sta bar is empty you dont suffer any ill effects...and sta items are cheap as **** too.
sure, its wt 15 for a slasher, but if you put another one in the ranged slot its not like its taking up stamina just sitting there. if you are a namby-pamby ranger then this may bother you having 15 extra weight but for the trolls and ogres this would be hardly noticeable for the extra str, ac, and magic resist.
i wouldnt mind using two on my iksar, one to slash with and one for ranged (if it indeed does go in ranged) for the stats.

i been using a wurmy from level 40-47, and i think its a very nice tool if used wisely. when i am not playing taunter/caster protector i use this along with stormfeather talons. the total damage ouput is very nice, better than dual yaks, and i dont pull the dang mob away from the warrior as much. if it looks like im gonna have to taunt alot, its yak/stormfeather talons. overall, i like my wurmy alot, even if it is a staminaslayer. eventually i will get me some faster weopons with a good delay.
so yes, wurmy even has a place in a rangers inventory, even if it is very slow. sometimes you wanna do damage without severe agro, and this weopon lets you do it. overall a pretty good weopon for the price, but certainly not something i will be using much past lvl 50
as with most tools, its what ya plan on doin with it that determines if its good or not.
i must agree with alot of you on the graphic, i dont like it much.

Hey everyone, I like the wurmslayer, like only a few 40+ weapons it has 15 weight - I don't know what its like at lvl 50 but when I'm in a good sarnak group (plz don't flame me for bein' a "frickin' n00b") my stamina goes down quite a lot using a 2.5 weight weapon and a 6.5 weight weapon!! so if you're in a loooong fight your best bet would be a skyfire or something lighter, although like the one dude, invigor can fix the stamina problems but its a pain to cast while you're fightin' - if these uber-mobs have as many HPs as they supposedly have then I don't wanna run outta stamina while tanking one!

41 Ranger and just quested one of these, i must say its nice, with my str at 166 im able to hit over 100 with it. Using SSOY in offhand and Call of Sky i can taunt pretty well when needed. Stamina is a factor, but I have invigor so no worries. So far im pleased with this weapon and recommend it to anyone that wants one. For those who dont want it, dont get it. Just my 2cps. Latuh

s the Wurmslayer better than a Sword of Skyfire?I think not. Sword of Skyfire is 10/22 and Procs Rain of Fire, doesn't aaadd STR but adds HP, ColdSV and CHA(Cause you know we melee types be lovin the honeys!) but leaving the proc out of the picture, it still does more DPM than wurmslayer, no matter what haste items or STR you have, and it won't drain your stamina. And of course, as a Ranger i can't have a 15 stone wep if I don't need it! I tried many lvls, and configurations, but Skyfire ALWAYS came out on top (In Copeland's). At lvl 50 with a cloak of flames, the Wurmslayer ALMOST equaled the Skyfire, but not quite ;-)

The only problem with this thing is it wieghs a ton, I have to keep bugging clerics or druid or bards for stamina if im gonna be pulling.

A-HA! You neglected to realize it STILL weighs 15 for the calculation of fatigue. I have foiled your nefarious plan.

It actually weighs 15 smarty..
whatever strength is added from the sword, it still WEIGHS 15.. and it takes more stamina per swing than another sword...
being overweight is not the issue... its the fact that it drains sta much faster...
and we all laughed when we saw that "Invigor" was one of the effects on almost every set of kunark armor..

Actually, that's not true, there are more stamina-draining weaps out there, the silverswift blade, a ranger only 2HS weights 10 stones and has a delay of 24... Do your maths.

It sounds like it is based off number of swings and weight of weapon.

So if you are hasted, you will drain more. If your weapon is heavier, it will drain more.

These posts don't help with *how* much the weight should factor (but it sounds like its a lot based off these posts). Looking for some evidence on how much it should drain.

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/sear...4&pp=25&page=2

Clerics talk about how in prolonged fights or chain pull groups, it was necessary to have Invigor up to keep melee going. None of them elaborate on exactly what happens when you run out of stamina though :/.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Tupakk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My sta drops when jump around like a tard, and it doesn't fill if I have no food and water. So I think it is working pretty well.

That is working. Stamina getting drained from melee attacks or swimming is what is not currently working along with classic.

I expect this is a large code change though.

[Pudge]

staff have tried to implement stamina a couple times already. i believe the problem is reconciling the old "stamina" system with the titanium client (which uses the newer endurance system)

[Nirgon]

Has Haynar tried though? 8]

Rogean has strongly hinted that they are able to trick the client to do things now. I think this is evident in Haynar's resist cap work.

Dald has strong stuff on swing formula.

Remaining questions:
How much should drain swimming? Moving only or stationary too (treading water)?

What should the result of being completely out of stamina be? There seems to be a very common agreement among people I discussed this with that were was indeed quite a penalty for it happening. The questioning is what should that penalty be for runspeed if any, melee attack speed, stats and then if it happens while swimming?

[Nirgon]

I agree with this much for swimming, I don't think it made you run out of air:

http://www.eqcleric.com/archive/index.php/t-10772.html

Kedge raids. Swiming takes stamina. Underwater you are constantly swiming. If you run out of stamina you STOP moving. At all. Clerics and Enchanters used to get /tells for "Zing!" a LOT. (Switch to endurance changed this, so far as I know you can MOVE and swim if you have zero endurance.)

Characters under 100 stamina:

Movement speed and stats(str/agi I think) dropped when the old stamina bar was depleted, though this only affected people with <100 STA (buffed).

I definitely remember having to keep just a PINCH of yellow in my bar chasing someone, this would explain it. Move speed / stats / hit rate when out of stam looks to be correct, needs more proof.



Attack Speed:
http://www.eqcleric.com/archive/index.php/t-4498.html

When your stamina drops all the way down, you become fatigued and with less than 100 stamina you are affecteed by it and your attack speed drops, fairly noticably. OVer 100 in stamina it's really pointless to worry with though as there are no ill affects of running out of stamina, aside that you can't jump anymore if you are trying to flee.

Can't wait for 100 sta (being a HEARTY adventurer) being such a valuable thing to have [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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