Min maxing Shamans

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

So I was reading the wiki for Shamans with regards to the STA vs WIS argument and in my head I can't seem to reconcile the order this server seems to place on which race is the best.

The general consensus I can see is that Troll > Ogre > Barb/Iksar but from what I've worked out based on the mana pool vs health pool argument as well as the subjective importance of each of the racial traits it should be closer to Troll > Iksar > Barb > Ogre. Now, I should preface the rest of the thread with the fact that I am not a min/maxer; I just want to see if or why I'm missing something when I've approached the problem and of course the racial benefits are completely subjective so relative importance is just that; relative.

I'm not too well written so I'll try and do this without jumping around in thoughts too much. For all intents and purposes the races are equal with regards to base mana regeneration as they all have the same skill caps so we can eliminate that from the equation. In terms of health regen, we can safely place the 4 races into two tiers effectively getting regen races vs non regen races (Troll and Iksar vs Barb and Ogre). Below ill run through a basic thought experiment using Ogres and Barbarians because I play a Barbarian.

For the sake of keeping it simple I will do what I did above and eliminate factors that are the same between the two races because it will have no bearing on the outcome when comparing regen vs non regen. Also the wiki is down so numbers are mostly just guesswork. At 55 I currently have 2203 mana and 1700hp self buffed (Sta and Kragg). Using canni 3 at 100hp for 66 mana I have an effective mana depth of 3061 (assuming canni down to above 20% to avoid low hp agro and canni 3 conversion). I also have more of a mana build (wis, +mana). In grouping with a similar geared Ogre with more of an hp build, he had 2100hp buffed and 1750 mana. Using the same parameters as before (canni to just above 20% to avoid low hp agro) he would have an effective mana pool 2877 meaning the Barb is superior in that regard. Now, since we regen at the same rate what happens below 100% mana and above 0% is effectively the same (keep in mind Torpor changes everything).

So the argument I'm trying to make here is, based on the knowledge we have of the above scenario, why would an Ogre make a better Shaman? Does front bash-stun immunity really overwrite faction, xp penalty, size difference and mana pool of a Barb? I mean, none of this really fleshes out over an extended fight because as long as you're neither fm or oom you are essentially doing the same thing but really, if I look at this I can see a Barb shaman being better at a hard camp or a solo-challenge.

I should note that you can do the same comparison with Trolls and Iksars with the only defining difference being gear selection for the Iksar. I place these two higher because regen = more mana regen which is, IMO the most valuable trait and boosts both races above the other two.

Anyways I'm curious to know the communities thoughts on this and would like to see how this really pans out. I see the min maxing community overwhelmingly choosing Ogres over Barbs and would like to know of I'm missing something.

Thanks for taking the time to read all the way.

[theaetatus]

Faction and xp penalty are irrelevant if you're min/maxing. Size is irrelevant, you have shrink. Mana pool is irrelevant as long as you have a reasonable amount, and you'll be hitting the wis soft cap at least anyway.

All it comes down to is regen vs stun immunity vs available toys for the race, and regen becomes mostly irrelevant when you get torpor.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Originally Posted by theaetatus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Faction and xp penalty are irrelevant if you're min/maxing. Size is irrelevant, you have shrink. Mana pool is irrelevant as long as you have a reasonable amount, and you'll be hitting the wis soft cap at least anyway.

All it comes down to is regen vs stun immunity vs available toys for the race, and regen becomes mostly irrelevant when you get torpor.

Good points - I guess I didn't take into account the true meaning of min-max. I would argue about soft cap since 95%+ of the server does not have BIS or even gears for WIS really.

Thanks for the reply!

[mgellan]

Really you're comparing a +wis/mana build versus an AC/HP build (ignoring stun immunity for the time being) - the obvious problem with +wis/mana builds is the idea that a corpse has no mana so survivability comes into play [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] If you're getting beaten on with low AC then your hp pool to canni is correspondingly lower as well. My Barb Shaman is aiming at 900ac, 2000hp self-buffed (which I presume is a moderately decent build) and to do so is losing wisdom as the price.

Doing that while trying to also get to 200MR is turning into a bit of a trick ...

Regards,
Mg

[BlkCamel]

Simple way to look at it is as such.

Barb Shaman = Best Raid Buffer due to large mana pool and easiest travel/xp mod
Troll Shaman= Best Group Healer w/solo ability
Iksar Shaman= Same As above without the plate
Ogre Shaman= Best Raid/Group Slower and Soloing summoning mobs due to Innate Frontal Stun

For overall general use, Group/Raid/Solo I would say Troll is best due to avail gear (JBB, Snare Clicky) and innate regen.

I personally went Ogre after playing Barb Shaman on live 99-06 because to me Frontal stun immunity is OP. Many times on live that slow would resist and mob comes running only to have your root/heal/second slow interrupt and my corpse on the ground.

[Tikker]

iksar has the best leveling path (imo)

end game, ogre is the best

Barb is least ugly, if that's important to you

troll is most ugly, if that's important too!

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Thanks for providing those answers guys! Some really good answers here!

[liveitup1216]

If you're going for top min/max then go Iksar. Velious makes Iksar top choice for all the classes since much of the gear is iksar usable and our regen/ac bonus gets better.

[blondeattk]

I know this is nt really related, but I used to do corpse drags in Kael drakkel (dead raids/grps)with my rallos zek ogre shaman, because I wasnt kos to most of the giants.

COuld be worth have an alt for this reason......(Drop the corpse when giants run towards you.)

SOme the stuff around tormax is on a kos faction tho.....but with care you can get most places in the zone. Obviously you dont kill giant son that toon.

[liveitup1216]

True, ogres who worship rallos start off non-kos with most or all of Kael I forget.