Best solo melee class?

[Ephirith]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Suggesting you put 20 points into INT as your starting stats doesn't mean I am saying max mana is better than sustain in a solo/group XP session. These are two different discussions.

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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

4. When soloing, SK's use mana for fear kiting, especially when they are an Iksar without access to Blood Ember. This is a much more efficient manner of leveling than face tanking the mob. The mana is going to help with fear kiting.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Max mana should be a lower priority for sure. When trying to maximize kills per hour, you generally aren't meditating to full mana before the next kill, so extra max mana is often unused.

Which is it, is the max mana helpful for fear kiting leveling, or is it often unused because you generally aren't meditating to full while fear kiting leveling?

The argument could be made that it's both, but that would also mean you're weighting the value of that extra mana far differently then versus now, for the purposes of rhetoric.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Ephirith [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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Which is it, is the max mana helpful or is it often unused?

It depends on the scenario. You are mixing like three different scenarios together and seemingly suggesting they must all have the same answer. Nuance seems lost on you.

1. In an XP solo/group scenario mana sustain is better, as you aren't meditating back to full mana between kills generally speaking. This means you aren't using a chunk of your max mana. You are also going for long periods of time, so regeneration has plenty of time to operate.

2. In a solo challenge scenario, the fight is often only going to last maybe 5-10 minutes, so sustain is less useful. This is where max mana can be more useful. You are starting at full mana, and you don't have a lot of time to regenerate mana. You also probably can't fear kite anyway, as the mobs are 55+ and summon.

3. In the specific case of Iksar SKs, they don't have access to Blood Ember Clickies at all. This means max mana is more useful for Iksars, as they have less sustain options.

I said all of this already in this thread and those quotes.

[Ephirith]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It depends on the scenario. You are mixing like three different scenarios together and seemingly suggesting they must all have the same answer. Nuance seems lost on you.

1. In an XP solo/group scenario mana sustain is better, as you aren't meditating back to full mana between kills generally speaking. This means you aren't using a chunk of your max mana. You are also going for long periods of time, so regeneration has plenty of time to operate.

Yes, this was my point exactly, and you are disagreeing with yourself in the other thread, because kill speed is directly proportional to mana sustain. Faster kills = less spells cast, less lost opportunity cost in stunted regen, lower damage taken, and minimized suboptimal positioning considerations while waiting for a long clickie cast. The contribution from 20 STR or 20 DEX, though infinitesimal, adds up over that long period of time, and it's a solo/group scenario so those stats will not be capped in 80% of players, ESPECIALLY the type of player that is asking this type of question.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. In a solo challenge scenario, the fight is often only going to last maybe 5-10 minutes, so sustain is less useful. This is where max mana can be more useful. You are starting at full mana, and you don't have a lot of time to regenerate mana. You also probably can't fear kite anyway, as the mobs are 55+.

Max mana is such a bottom of the barrel shit stat for the majority of classes, especially hybrids casting bargain bin cleric/nec/druid spells, that I think even this debatable. You would have to gain a lot of max mana and/or lose very little sustain in order for that trade-off to come out ahead across a 5-10 minute fight.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. In the specific case of Iksar SKs, they don't have access to Blood Ember Clickies at all. This means max mana is more useful for Iksars, as they have less sustain options.

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Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You also probably can't fear kite anyway, as the mobs are 55+.

Then why is max mana any more useful for an iksar than anyone else, if your solo challenge mobs are 55+ and max mana is a shit stat for other situations, according to you (and me)? What has the iksar lost in that situation, if nobody can click their blood embers?

[Ephirith]

p.s. monk is the superior overall soloist whether you're twinked or not.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This whole discussion actually has me considering whether I've outgrown my earring of woven bark. It was a hand-me-down from my druid, where I got it while leveling in chardok as a tip from befriending and buffing a necro farmer with regrowth over a couple weeks. It's been great to have, but the mana savings aren't significant and the clicky cast time is annoying. I'm curious what you or any of the other rangers in this thread would suggest for a replacement. I'll trade you the woven bark for that bauble straight up [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Two HGL’s are ideal. I have an Earring of Essence only because I’ve been lazy about grabbing another. It’s a solid earring though. If coupled with an EoE, I’d rather use a Blue Diamond earring or Fingerbone Hoop over a pearly bauble. MR is the best for a class that does a lot of pulling.

[Snaggles]

I might have missed the nuance of the debate so my apologies in advance.

With a SK, the case for mana comes down to stunt/named kills that summon and can’t be feared. At this point you are likely proccing Avatar off an eye so STR and Dex are capped. Roughly every 18 INT is another drain soul, to a point.

For this rather narrow definition of “solo”, a 338 DD and heal is pretty solid stat optimization even if you don’t have Avatar. You could instead have about 18 attack, or 93 hps. It’s really one of the few situations where an erudite or DE might be matched to an ogre or troll. In the extreme situation, an erudite loses Slam, regen, and strength but picks up nearly 700 mana. That’s three extra Drain Souls as a reward for struggling to carry fine steel for 59 levels.

Still, most people are going to loot and equip gear that has a variety of stats and there are only so many pieces of gear with preset stats. I wish we could mess with stat sliders…I’d trade agility for damn near anything [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] .

[DeathsSilkyMist]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Ephirith [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The contribution from 20 STR or 20 DEX, though infinitesimal, adds up over that long period of time, and it's a solo/group scenario so those stats will not be capped in 80% of players, ESPECIALLY the type of player that is asking this type of question.

The starting stat discussion has to do with the distribution of stats across items and buffs. Melee classes in Velious will cap STR and DEX eventually via a primal weapon and a combination of raid gear and raid buffs. This means you will eventually stop using those 20 starting stats in STR or DEX, as you'll be capped at 255 anyway. INT will most likely not be capped with gear/buffs, so INT is the better starting stat if you plan on getting a primal and raid gear. 200 extra mana is better than 0 STR or 0 DEX.

Originally Posted by Ephirith [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes, this was my point exactly, and you are disagreeing with yourself in the other thread, because kill speed directly equates to mana sustain. Faster kills = less spells cast or lost opportunity cost in stunted regen, damage output, and suboptimal positioning options while waiting for a long clickie cast.

I can give you a simple example with my recent video:

https://youtu.be/yZjWT9dj2uI?si=PB8P3Gpq26SJVdXO

Lets say we are killing a live mob in HS that needs 3 fears and takes 120 seconds to kill:

1. Fear Boots - 7 seconds cast, 0 mana.
2. Fear Spell - 3.5 second cast, 40 mana.
3. Meditate is 20 mana per tick.

3 casts of Fear is 10.5 seconds of cast time + 6 ticks (36 seconds) of med time. That is 46.5 seconds per kill.

5 casts of Fear Boots (Let's say 2 were interrupted) is 35 seconds per kill.

35 seconds (Fear Boots) is faster than 46.5 seconds (Fear Spell) when you look at both cast time and recovery.

My video already shows that I can maintain my HP with worn regen and Epic Procs, so a bit of extra HP lost during fear casts isn't a big deal.

I am not including standing mana regen, as both scenarios get the same amount of mana from standing mana regen.

Originally Posted by Ephirith [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Max mana is such a bottom of the barrel shit stat for the majority of classes that I think even this debatable. You would have to gain a lot of max mana and/or lose very little sustain in order for that trade-off to come out ahead across a 5-10 minute fight.

That is why I said it can be more useful. Let's say you have FT1 and FT2. That is 40 mana per minute when including base 1 regen. You are getting 200-400 extra mana, depending on the fight duration. Whether or not the extra mana matters depends on when you need it. If you frontload most of your mana early in the fight (healing yourself while waiting for a slow proc), you may be in a position where you are OOM, and cannot wait another minute to regenerate some mana for another spell. In that case using a Crown of Rile for +300 mana roughly speaking may be better than wearing Narandi Crown for FT2.

Originally Posted by Ephirith [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then why is max mana any more useful for an iksar, if your solo challenge mobs are 55+ and max mana is a shit stat for other situations, according to you? What has the iksar lost in that situation, if nobody can click their blood embers?

Max mana works the same for Iksars and non-iksars in a solo challenge scenario.

In solo/group xp scenarios, max mana is the way to increase the time between med breaks if you don't have easy access to cheap sustain items like blood ember clickies. Since Iksars don't have Blood Ember clickies, max mana is basically their only option until raid gear.

Iksars can still get Soul Defiler and Flowing Thought, but Soul Defiler in particular is expensive and rare.

[Ephirith]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In solo/group xp scenarios, max mana is the way to increase the time between med breaks if you don't have easy access to cheap sustain items like blood ember clickies. Since Iksars don't have Blood Ember clickies, max mana is basically their only option until raid gear.

You should not be routinely depleting your mana to 0 in either a solo grinding or group xp scenario. You should be operating in a sustainable way and keeping a reserve for emergencies. If you are burning through to a med break you are making a choice, and it's a suboptimal one. Or you're playing casually watching porn between pulls, in which case none of these considerations matter and by all means stack max mana so you can get more pulls in between your breaks-- that wouldn't be unique to iksar.

You don't have to agree with me, but you should at least agree with yourself. Don't forget, compared to max mana, any option that increases your character's output is an indirect form of sustain.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In an XP solo/group scenario mana sustain is better, as you aren't meditating back to full mana between kills generally speaking.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Ephirith [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You should not be routinely depleting your mana to 0 in either a solo grinding or group xp scenario. You should be operating in a sustainable way and keeping a reserve for emergencies. If you are burning through to a med break you are making a choice, and it's a suboptimal one. Or you're playing casually watching porn between pulls, in which case none of these considerations matter and by all means stack max mana so you can get more pulls in between your breaks-- that wouldn't be unique to iksar.

You don't have to agree with me, but you should at least agree with yourself. Don't forget, compared to max mana, any option that increases your character's output is an indirect form of sustain.

I do agree with you, and myself. I've been saying for years people should avoid rolling Iksar SKs due to not having Blood Ember. The lack of Blood Ember is suboptimal, and SK Epic is better than Greenmist.

Why do you think I am pushing for using clickies instead of max mana for solo/group XP scenarios lol? Did you miss the entire conversation?

With all this being said, some people play Iksar SKs anyway. I'm not going to tell them to reroll their characters if they ask for advice. If you play an Iksar, your two choices for more mana to play with between med breaks is more max mana, or raid items. That is the reason why Iksars would favor max mana more. They don't have a choice before raid items.

[Duik]

...watching porn between pulls...

Hehe