Raising the lvl cap past 50+ is what ruined EQ

[thugcruncher]

Originally Posted by timhutton [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've never read anything official from Sony about why it was +10 and was later changed to +5 level increases.

Well, +10 was a Brad and friends decision, and +5 was a Sony decision, so that's a start.

The grind isn't the important part, the important part is making something hard, so you have this feeling inside after you've done something difficult, that you feel good about. Even if it's just pixels you did something that took time and effort.

Let's use how character's look as an example:

Everquest: look like a fucking chump from levels 1-30, or higher depending on the amount of money and gear you acquire. But eventually look rad, with sweet weapons, shiny armor, and sweet particles. Enjoy a long everquest career of friendship and merriment.

Everquest 2: Look like an awesome archetypal warrior decked out in full plate at level 1, or better yet spend 100 station cash and look like whatever you want to look like, and never change your visual appearance ever again. Quit playing immediately because there's no difficulty curve andof the stupid flashing icon wackamole mechanic.

Everquest Next: See avatar.

Arguably, these features that people "want" like leveling faster, or looking awesomer, or out of combat regen, or more power to do x, ultimately lead to downfall. The only people that remain in the long run are the core who need to be the best and max out all their shit and experience all content. Yes, the same thing is happening to wow.

[Zarash]

I started playing MMO's around 97. I think there were many factors that ruined EQ. There were to many new games comming out for people to choose from. People always want what is new over the old. The biggest factor that ruins games is dual boxing, and is probally the biggest part or why MMO's are not the same any longer.

When you dual box you effectively stop looking for groups. To me MMO's are about looking for other people to play the game with and socialising. The more the merrier.

MMO's are all about me and not about everyone any longer. When EQ first came out people could not dual box because our computers were just to shitty to handle that so we had to form groups to get that good stuff from high end mobs. Thus we grouped hung out together, socialised, and just did funny stuff together. Now mmo's should be called (MMOSPE) Massively Multiplayer Online Single Player Experince.

Also, they do not need to raise levels. They should add the special perks in, and new content with harder mobs to fight. I think the special stuff are the AA's people are talking about? I am not sure I have not played EQ since around 2001. Extra character slots are there for when people are board of playing their main and want to do something different.

I do like EQ, but I also like pvp MMO games and to me the PVP in EQ was not good lol. For most people that played EQ that really was not a factor tho. I started playing Ultima Online in 97, and pvp in UO was great. It was alot of button mashing and knowing what someone else was going to cast. Alot of people did not like UO and then went to EQ from UO.

[webrunner5]

Originally Posted by thugcruncher [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, +10 was a Brad and friends decision, and +5 was a Sony decision, so that's a start.

The grind isn't the important part, the important part is making something hard, so you have this feeling inside after you've done something difficult, that you feel good about. Even if it's just pixels you did something that took time and effort.

Let's use how character's look as an example:

Everquest: look like a fucking chump from levels 1-30, or higher depending on the amount of money and gear you acquire. But eventually look rad, with sweet weapons, shiny armor, and sweet particles. Enjoy a long everquest career of friendship and merriment.

Everquest 2: Look like an awesome archetypal warrior decked out in full plate at level 1, or better yet spend 100 station cash and look like whatever you want to look like, and never change your visual appearance ever again. Quit playing immediately because there's no difficulty curve andof the stupid flashing icon wackamole mechanic.

Everquest Next: See avatar.

Arguably, these features that people "want" like leveling faster, or looking awesomer, or out of combat regen, or more power to do x, ultimately lead to downfall. The only people that remain in the long run are the core who need to be the best and max out all their shit and experience all content. Yes, the same thing is happening to wow.

Great post Thug.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are two things that set the entire tone of a game like this - death penalty and leveling curve. Everything else, all the values of what else is in the game (items, classes, "achievements" both personal and corporate) are measured against these; they are the baseline for the entire game.

Be careful what you wish for. You change them, you end up with WoW and its many clones (not saying that's all bad, but they are very different games). You can't have what EQ is and not have the "grind". It's Cause and Effect.

You don't understand game design. Please stop talking like you do.

Grind is not necessary. If your game is based around how GOOD the player is, then THAT is the progression. You still need to invest time into the game, but that time should be about actively playing the game, rather than doing a bunch of meaningless shit so that you can reach a point which counts as actually playing the game. For example, how many hours do you think the World Champions of Magic: The Gathering put into playing the game? It's a lot, but all of it is ACTIVE.

For example, imagine if Magic: The Gathering cards came coated in a super hard wax and it took hours just to properly scrape the wax off that card so its suitable for tournament regulations. How many people do you think would be playing Magic: The Gathering in that scenario, as compared to how many are actually playing it right now?

The trick with an MMORPG is in figuring out how to make PvE something that requires real skill. The first place you need to start is the combat system. Then after that you need to have dynamic content, rather than static content.

I think traditional "Levels" still have a place in an MMORPG, because it adds a feeling of history to your character and that increases immersiveness, but the game needs to not be about "Leveling". It's possible to reach that golden standard, but thus far no MMORPG has logistically attempted to. Mostly because the people who own the games don't understand how/why; they are too busy chasing the easiest path to money.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Grind is not necessary.

For example, imagine if Magic: The Gathering cards came coated in a super hard wax and it took hours just to properly scrape the wax off that card so its suitable for tournament regulations. How many people do you think would be playing Magic: The Gathering in that scenario, as compared to how many are actually playing it right now?

This is an excellent example! I always felt that "difficulty" of EQ was artificial.
Take CT raid for example - the reason it hard, is because you need to clean entire zone first so you don't swarmed, and because CT DTs every 30 sec, insta killing your char no matter how strong/skilled you are. There is just no strategy around it other than - bring ton of people and kill fast.
Or compare Velious Dragon raids to say Kunark or even Nagy/Vox - its EXACTLY the same fight, only dragons in NTOV have gazillion of hps and hit harder. Nothing really new. Winning strategy remains the same - bring larger raid force.

This is why I more appreciate PoP+ era raids when they started to make scripted encounters - took them long enough to figure that out.

[mtb tripper]

all seems very peculiar

[runlvlzero]

PnP is intelligent and creative gaming.

MMO's are acheivement and goal oriented. But much more superfluous. That doesn't mean their bad, dumb.

But they don't fit every personality type equally well. And "achievers" will always love MMO's because they will creatively seek the most efficient ways to "achieve" whatever there is. Their focus isn't really on the game, its on the metagame. You see this with Diablo II as well even though its a faster paced game. The really nerdy people figured out how to grind out level 80 characters as fast as possible with the least risk involved.

Hence many peoples motivation to max to 60 is not there. Because their not interested in that meta gaming experience. The carrot at the end of the stick is generally not good enough. (I'm speaking from a biased personal perspective).

This is why EQ will always be nostalgia to me and I doubt it could ever be more.

Sorry for the scare quotes...

[Danth]

Grinding is only grinding when you aren't having fun doing it; otherwise it's just playing the game.

There's nothing innately wrong with raising the level cap to 60 or with the rate of experience gain 50-60. The problem was that Kunark tried to be a 1-60 expansion with fewer zones than the original 50-capped game world, with the inevitable result being that 50+ and particularly 55+ didn't have a lot of places to go. Excessive repetition within too short a time causes apathy and boredom.

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Everquest was not a particularly difficult game. Indeed, it probably achieved its popularity because it was the easiest game of its kind when it came out. Compare it to cutthroat environments available at the time like Ultime Online with its PvP and item looting and Everquest seems positively safe and friendly by comparison. It only seems difficult now because games have continued growing easier over the years as the market continues attempting to appeal to inexperienced players and non-gamers.

Player vs player combat is more of a challenge (and I enjoy it greatly) but other genres are better-suited to it. Shooters provide an obvious example. My own preference is for MMO-flightsims when I want to fight other players. 350 MPH combat through 720 degrees of motion offers far more tactical diversity than anything you'll encounter in a fantasy game.

Danth

[runlvlzero]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Grinding is only grinding when you aren't having fun doing it; otherwise it's just playing the game.

There's nothing innately wrong with raising the level cap to 60 or with the rate of experience gain 50-60. The problem was that Kunark tried to be a 1-60 expansion with fewer zones than the original 50-capped game world, with the inevitable result being that 50+ and particularly 55+ didn't have a lot of places to go. Excessive repetition within too short a time causes apathy and boredom.

---------------------

Everquest was not a particularly difficult game. Indeed, it probably achieved its popularity because it was the easiest game of its kind when it came out. Compare it to cutthroat environments available at the time like Ultime Online with its PvP and item looting and Everquest seems positively safe and friendly by comparison. It only seems difficult now because games have continued growing easier over the years as the market continues attempting to appeal to inexperienced players and non-gamers.

Player vs player combat is more of a challenge (and I enjoy it greatly) but other genres are better-suited to it. Shooters provide an obvious example. My own preference is for MMO-flightsims when I want to fight other players. 350 MPH combat through 720 degrees of motion offers far more tactical diversity than anything you'll encounter in a fantasy game.

Danth

You pretty much pegged it. Though I don't prefer flight sims, but for different reasons. Quake 3 is still my favorite competitive FPS. Something about working against the constraints of the environments, engine, and weapons, is more appealing to me than full freedom of movement.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Everquest was not a particularly difficult game. Indeed, it probably achieved its popularity because it was the easiest game of its kind when it came out. Compare it to cutthroat environments available at the time like Ultime Online with its PvP and item looting and Everquest seems positively safe and friendly by comparison. It only seems difficult now because games have continued growing easier over the years as the market continues attempting to appeal to inexperienced players and non-gamers.[Danth

We're going round and round around personal preferences and bias now, however this statement is just not true. EQ was always a "hard" game, especially at the time it was released when there was nothing else to compare to except UO, Merdian 59, and MUDs. p99 is easy in comparison to live back in the day because no-one had the information about how mechanics and spawns work that we do now. It was all a mystery with a CR pricetag on it. EQ always took time and effort. That's not saying it required great skill; the two are separate things.

It's a bit funny for me reading all these posts because you guys put forth ideas you think haven't been thought of or done before. Most of all this has been covered and tried in games systems way before even EQ arrived (P&P), and succeeded/failed for the same reasons that it all succeeds/fails now. However, it's the curse of every generation to proceed as if the ones before it never existed I think. So have it!