please explain the exp hybrid penilty

[kaev]

wow, people in this thread are even better at :math: than the Verant devs of old

[webrunner5]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

wow, people in this thread are even better at :math: than the Verant devs of old

They were all on Drugs like I said. We are all clean and sober on here. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[SirAlvarex]

Hm, I guess my post was skipped over where I explained the mathematical phenomenon of one group member leveling faster.

Basically, if both classes were at the *exact* same XP totals, normalized for their penalties (so at the very beginning of a level, no extra XP), both classes should level similarly unless rounding comes into play.

Once a character is "further along" in a level, they start eating a bigger piece of the pie. Since the required XP to level is the same no matter what your current totals are, you get kind of a 'jet-fuel' approach to leveling. So two druids of the same level, but one who is one yellow into the level is gaining *more* xp per kill than the other druid.

Since the XP totals aren't shown, even if you have just 10 more XP (basically the XP total of a single kill), you'll already be taking a bigger slice at the beginning. This means they'll outlevel you since they are getting a disproportionate amount of XP for their level when compared to you.

btw here's the original post detailing how XP is divvied up: http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=24405

[Dirtnap]

Originally Posted by Rooj [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How do you know he was taking 50%?

The exp calculator that used the exp formula? I'm sure someone still has it if you want to check it out.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by SirAlvarex [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hm, I guess my post was skipped over where I explained the mathematical phenomenon of one group member leveling faster.

Basically, if both classes were at the *exact* same XP totals, normalized for their penalties (so at the very beginning of a level, no extra XP), both classes should level similarly unless rounding comes into play.

Once a character is "further along" in a level, they start eating a bigger piece of the pie. Since the required XP to level is the same no matter what your current totals are, you get kind of a 'jet-fuel' approach to leveling. So two druids of the same level, but one who is one yellow into the level is gaining *more* xp per kill than the other druid.

Since the XP totals aren't shown, even if you have just 10 more XP (basically the XP total of a single kill), you'll already be taking a bigger slice at the beginning. This means they'll outlevel you since they are getting a disproportionate amount of XP for their level when compared to you.

btw here's the original post detailing how XP is divvied up: http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=24405

The bolded bit above is (or should be) false. It is possible that they've mis-implemented XP awards as described in the post you quote (which I would point out is not a dev post.) However, since EQ XP awards were pretty well documented, I expect they've done it here just as they did on live. That is, XP is divided based on the XP you needed to achieve your current level, not your current XP total. Certainly I've never noticed XP while grouped progressing faster towards the end of a hell level than it did at the start, which should be quite noticeable if the quoted system were in place.

[SirAlvarex]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The bolded bit above is (or should be) false. It is possible that they've mis-implemented XP awards as described in the post you quote (which I would point out is not a dev post.) However, since EQ XP awards were pretty well documented, I expect they've done it here just as they did on live. That is, XP is divided based on the XP you needed to achieve your current level, not your current XP total. Certainly I've never noticed XP while grouped progressing faster towards the end of a hell level than it did at the start, which should be quite noticeable if the quoted system were in place.

I definitely agree it should work in a way that the XP is split based upon how much XP was require for you to reach your current level as opposed to how much XP you currently have. But if that were the case, we wouldn't run into the situation where people are outleveling eachother when they've basically killed the same amount of mobs.

And the XP progressing faster is just in relation to your group mates. You don't gain flat out more XP, but over time you'll slowly start to accumulate more XP.

I have to think back, but either Dumesh used to be a dev or there is another Dev post confirming what he said. But at some point this question was brought up and a Dev posted how it worked, which went off of total XP gained to point.

Also, if you read the developer letter for when the XP totals were changed, there it mentions that pre-XP change the XP was split off total experience. Thus two classes of the same level but at different parts of the same level would gain different shares of the total XP.

The amount of XP needed to level tho is so vast that this would only really be visible at lower levels, where the XP gained per mob is so great.

If a developer can correct me, or if my math is just flat out wrong then I'll retract my statement. But it appears that the mechanic I describe is how it is implemented, where shares are determined by Total XP irregardless of current level.

[cs616]

I only read the OP, so not sure if someone already posted this, but...

As I understand the penalty it works like this. Every class/race combo requires a certain amount of exp to progress to the next level depending on their bonus/penalty. So for example, say it takes a character with no penalty 100,000 exp points to level 1-50, a character with a 10% penalty will take 110,000 exp points to do the same 1-50. When these players group, experience is awarded to them proportionally to the total amount of experience they've already earned. So for example, if one character has earned 100,000 exp over the course of their play time, and they group with a character who has earned 150,000; the first player would receive 2/5 of the experience awarded per mob, and the latter would receive 3/5. All those numbers are made up btw, just using them as an example.

What this means is that a character in certain circumstances might get more exp per kill with a lower level hybrid than they might with a higher level non-hybrid.

So using your warrior + druid duo example, no, you and an equal level druid would not receive the same amount of experience unless you both had the same penalties, which I'm not even sure is possible without looking at all the class/race combos available to both classes. You'd likely receive a very similar amount, but unless you both have earned the exact same amount of experience throughout your character's life, which is highly unlikely if you look at the exp required to level, then one of you will be receiving a larger portion of the shared exp.

[xCry0x]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

wow, people in this thread are even better at :math: than the Verant devs of old

More like the selective reading level is amazing considering:

Originally Posted by SirAlvarex [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The official explanation states that the percentage of XP is split by the total amount of XP you've gained to level.

I'll take a crack at showing some mathematical examples


So if a level 8 druid has 8,000 XP, and a level 10 SK has 14,000 XP, on a kill of a mob worth 100XP it is dividied up like:

8000+14000 = 22000 total XP in group
Druid is 0.363636363636364 of the share
SK is 0.636363636363636 of the share

If 100 XP is rewarded, add the 2% bonus for being in a group.

102XP total:
102 * .363 = 37.026
102 * .636 = 64.872

So now given two characters of the same level, with a normalized leveling curve of 1,000xp per level:

level 10 druid 10,000xp
level 10 sk 14,000xp

24000 total group XP
Druid is 0.416666666666667 of the share
SK is 0.583333333333333 of the share

Assuming 100xp mob normalized to 102xp for the group:
Druid: 42.432
SK: 59.466

Druid's next level is at 11,000, or 24 kills
SK's next level is at 15,400, or 24 kills

They level at the same rate

Now, lets put that druid halfway through his level.

Druid 10,500
SK 14,000
24,500 total group XP
Druid is 0.428571428571429 share
SK is 0.571428571428571 share

102XP mob:
Druid: 43.656
SK: 58.242
Druid needs 11.45 kills to get 500xp to level
SK needs 24.13 kills to get 1400xp to level.

See how the curve isn't exactly a straight line? By the Druid being halfway through the level at the moment they started grouping together, he started getting "his bigger share" much earlier in the level. That means that he is further ahead of his curve and will level slightly faster than his partner.

If both partners start at the exact same point in the level as eachother (to the infinitismal digit), they will level at the exact same rate.

I don't know why it is so mind blowing that it would work this simply. The game was released in 1999, software development wasn't as advanced as it is now, they made the EXP break down simple.

Every char has a "true level" determined by total exp they have gained through their leveling trips. The group exp distribution very simply looks at everyone, adds them all together and then determines your % of the whole to determine your contribution, IE higher level players get more EXP since they are 'helping' lower level players. Simple, easy to code and it does it's job of distributing exp to a group on a more complex level than (Exp from kill)/(# of players in group).

This goes sideways when you take hybrid penalties into consideration but the penalty itself was probably thrown in late in the dev process and the implications of punishing groups as well as the hybrid wasn't thought out/heavily considered. (easy to believe that 2 dif project teams didn't communicate well?)

[SirAlvarex]

I decided to put together a google doc that allows you to edit some XP values to see how the "XP is adjusted by total XP earned to date HERE (copy the google doc to your own to edit the values in B2 and B5 for starting level). H9 is probably the Cell most people care about, which is total XP gained through leveling.

I just made it assume a base leveling curve of 1,000XP per level. Once again if my Mathz are wrong, let me know and I'll fix it.

[xCry0x]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The bolded bit above is (or should be) false. It is possible that they've mis-implemented XP awards as described in the post you quote (which I would point out is not a dev post.) However, since EQ XP awards were pretty well documented, I expect they've done it here just as they did on live. That is, XP is divided based on the XP you needed to achieve your current level, not your current XP total. Certainly I've never noticed XP while grouped progressing faster towards the end of a hell level than it did at the start, which should be quite noticeable if the quoted system were in place.

But wouldn't that only happen under very specific circumstances?

This discussion always makes me want to go "lalalala I don't care" because all I know is when I end up grouping with multiple hybrids the exp always seems to be shit.

Maybe this is because of shared penalty, maybe this is because a warrior tank + a rogue results in shit dying quicker than a sk + a ranger.

My real world experience was in lvl 59 I grouped with 2 sk (1 erudite 1 iksar) + bard + iksar monk + rogue and I got 1%/hr at bar/chef clearing the full spawns.

The next day I was grouped in crypt with war + 2 rogues + shaman + ench and was getting ~4%/hr at a camp that is supposed to be arguably less exp than bar/chef?

Well if the 2 sk, bard & monk were all laying a huge penalty on me then that sure as hell would explain the slowness of a camp generally considered to be the 'best' group exp spot in seb.