NPC melee fix(ed?)

[guineapig]

I would just like to add how much fun I'm having doing/reviewing research with you guys and helping the admins troubleshoot and find tweaks. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Halladar]

I had found that eqthieves site, but didn't mention it because of some of the oddities.

Like Ranger defense post 50 going to 255 while warriors were capped at 252.

I don't know enough to post knowledgeably on the history of some of this stuff. But I do remember Pallies and SK's were on a different melee damage when kunark came out. Warriors had a different one, and monks had yet another.

Plus at some point warriors got that thing where the max hit (di/db stuff) was shifted for them.

I don't think this was the case pre-kunark.

Anyway I sent a tell to a 48 paladin in game (thanks Barthorn).

He said his skills were:

Dodge 125
Parry 175
Riposte 175
Defense 210

which is the same as the eqthieves site.

If the eqthieves site has skill caps the same as what we have on this server it will be for Rangers:

Dodge 137
Parry 185
Riposte 150
Defense 200

I haven't tested it here, but I seem to remember that 1 def = 5 ac. If that is true top end Rangers will be -50 ac to true tank classes. Plus most of the gear they can wear has less ac. I don't think lower riposte caps would make that much of a difference.

Basically unless the mitigation tables are different for different classes, or soft/hard cap ac stuff is in, I'd think a ranger is fine in the tank role for most stuff except things like ghoul lord or raids.

Which is the way I think it ought to work honestly.

But I haven't grouped with any high level rangers on this server, so I have no idea how it actually plays out.

[messiah_b]

I agree that on paper it doesn't look so terrible, but the problem had to do with the synergy that the multiple effects created on each other and the group. If you take 25% more damage that is a lot more heals that have to be dished out. Since they have lower hp's it's not as efficient to cheal and they have nothing special to bring to a group...the list goes on and on.

These are complete estimate numbers, but I think it illustrates the point.

Paladin: 5% less skills, same ac, 5% less hps, + LOH = not as good a tank as warrior but probably better whenever LOH is up.
Ranger: 5% less skills than warrior, 10% less ac, 10% less hps = just a really bad tank.

[Danth]

It's a safe assumption that if you have a Ranger tanking, it's because a Warrior, Paladin, or Shadow Knight cannot be found. The question, then, isn't so much how a Ranger compares to the above, but rather how it tanks compared to that Druid or Wizard. For that purpose Rangers can be rated adequate, if just.

Danth

[stormlord]

I parsed my naked level 6 monk before and after the patch and this is what I got:

Before:
240 total checks: 184 hits, 48 misses, 8 dodges (me);
After:
290 total checks: 181 hits, 102 misses, 7 dodges (me);

Btw, this was me idling next to a decaying skeleton (face to face).

Essentially:
Hit % went from 76.6% to 62.4%...
Miss % went from 20% to 35.1%...
Dodge went from 3.3% to 2.4%...


First thing I gather from this is that mobs aren't hitting me as often now. The second thing I gather from this is that with more parses my dodge % will probably be similar to what it was before. However, it might be that I'm only dodging hits (rather than misses), and that's why I'm dodging less than before (because I'm getting hit less). Assuming this is the case, dodge fires in about 4% of hits.

Does anyone know if dodge % goes up as you improve the dodge skill, or does it only allow you to dodge against higher level mobs?

[Halladar]

Originally Posted by Halladar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I haven't tested it here, but I seem to remember that 1 def = 5 ac.

Hmmm this can't possibly be right. It is more than one but my memory is definitely faulty.

I don't think I heard of anyone cracking 1000 AC before kunark. Maybe even velious. I'm not sure what best gear was, but I'd bet it was full indicolite, with stuff like Naggy's cloak in the other spots.

Anyway too much time has gone by. What it seems like I remember may not have been the way it was.

[EliteJackson]

Originally Posted by Halladar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyway too much time has gone by. What it seems like I remember may not have been the way it was.

The story of life after 30.

[Tenudil]

Originally Posted by stormlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First thing I gather from this is that mobs aren't hitting me as often now. The second thing I gather from this is that with more parses my dodge % will probably be similar to what it was before. However, it might be that I'm only dodging hits (rather than misses), and that's why I'm dodging less than before (because I'm getting hit less). Assuming this is the case, dodge fires in about 4% of hits.

Does anyone know if dodge % goes up as you improve the dodge skill, or does it only allow you to dodge against higher level mobs?

You are correct, the dodge rate going down is due to how avoidance checks are calculated after the check for an actual hit or miss. On live the skill avoidance checks are calculated first and then if they fail another check is made to see if it is a hit or miss.

Dodge % does go up as the skill improves.


AC is comprised of both a mitigation and avoidance component.

Avoidance = (AGI T from table) + trunc(Defense * 16/9), never less than 0
Caster Mitigation = trunc(Buffs/3) + trunc(Defense/2) + (Equipment + 1)
Anyone else's Mitigation = trunc(Buffs/4) + trunc(Defense/3) + trunc(Equipment * 4/3)
Displayed AC = trunc( (Avoidance + Mitigation) * 1000 / 847 )

I think monks get a bonus of lvl+5 added to their equipment ac value

So a non caster gets roughly 2.5 of displayed AC from each point of defense.


As to the War vs Pal/Shd vs Rng debate, you also have to rememeber how many people were still running around in stat gear at the time. The plate classes that maximized AC in combination with higher avoidance skills and Defense caps tended to tank significantly better then the chain classes and even other plate classes that went the STR/DEX/AGI route.

[Tenudil]

Originally Posted by Elerion [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Evade = Hide. It's not a separate skill.

Evade isn't actually a skill but the ability was not present in hide until Feb 2000.

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20000217a.html

A new rogue-specific ability has been added to the "Hide" skill. It is called "Evade". This skill has the effect of lowering the amount that the targeted NPC hates the rogue, and has the potential of making the engaged NPC switch to another target (preferably a tank) within the rogue's group. It is essentially a "reverse taunt". This ability helps mitigate the negative effects of the rogue's exceedingly high damage-output potential. It also will in-turn help the rogue do even more damage as the NPC is much more likely to expose its back. It is engaged by targeting the NPC you wish to "Evade" and pressing the "Hide" button. As a note, you must not be in combat mode in order to use this ability.


There was a reason that every rogue didnt tend use things like an SBD in 99', and that 12/22 dagger would be useless unless he wanted to commit suicide. It also is likely helping to raise the DPS of entire raids by stacking hate on tanks, assuming its in and working correctly.

[Halladar]

Originally Posted by Tenudil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are correct, the dodge rate going down is due to how avoidance checks are calculated after the check for an actual hit or miss. On live the skill avoidance checks are calculated first and then if they fail another check is made to see if it is a hit or miss.

Dodge % does go up as the skill improves.


AC is comprised of both a mitigation and avoidance component.

Avoidance = (AGI T from table) + trunc(Defense * 16/9), never less than 0
Caster Mitigation = trunc(Buffs/3) + trunc(Defense/2) + (Equipment + 1)
Anyone else's Mitigation = trunc(Buffs/4) + trunc(Defense/3) + trunc(Equipment * 4/3)
Displayed AC = trunc( (Avoidance + Mitigation) * 1000 / 847 )

I think monks get a bonus of lvl+5 added to their equipment ac value

So a non caster gets roughly 2.5 of displayed AC from each point of defense.


As to the War vs Pal/Shd vs Rng debate, you also have to rememeber how many people were still running around in stat gear at the time. The plate classes that maximized AC in combination with higher avoidance skills and Defense caps tended to tank significantly better then the chain classes and even other plate classes that went the STR/DEX/AGI route.

I find this very interesting. But what is the definition of the trunc function?