I forgot how mudflated live eq was

[SCB]

I can go to Crushbone right now on my enchanter and afk with a pet out and it'll clear all of the hardest content in the zone.

That's literally the kind of shit you're complaining about here.

[Jimjam]

I don't think that weapon is so ridiculous.

If at lvl 50 vanilla you use a short sword of ykesha for a proc aggro weapon and at level 60 you use the red epic, that suggests for each 10 levels DMG should increase by a factor of two thirds.

If that is a weapon for a level 100: 8*1.67^5=103DMG ... seems to more of less follow the trend set by Kunark.

Mind you, I have often said Kunark messed up itemisation in Everquest, so yea.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think that weapon is so ridiculous.

If at lvl 50 vanilla you use a short sword of ykesha for a proc aggro weapon and at level 60 you use the red epic, that suggests for each 10 levels DMG should increase by a factor of two thirds.

If that is a weapon for a level 100: 8*1.67^5=103DMG ... seems to more of less follow the trend set by Kunark.

Mind you, I have often said Kunark messed up itemisation in Everquest, so yea.

Exactly. That's the problem. In modern EQ that weapon is not ridiculous. Its just the so-called "mudflation". Have an expansion: Increase stats on gear/weps + Make encounters relative to gear increase in difficulty.

The result is that after several expansions you 1) make segments of your own game insignificant. the more you add expansions in this manner the more of your own game you sunset. 2) the arithmetic gets out of control. instead of dealing with small sensible numbers you are dealing with HUGE unwieldy stats (can you imagine being the dev that has to actually argue whether or not the item should +2875 HP vs. 2800 HP ???).

Yes, you have the same effect over the natural curve of leveling. Lvl 10 zones are useless for a lvl 60 character. (I can zone into crushbone and slaughter the whole zone easily on a lvl 60 toon). The difference is the consistency of the world is not challenged by this nearly as much as after a few mudflation expacs.

Also, vanilla EQ did a good job of making sure that there usually good reasons why a high level player would actually need to return to lower level zones---holding the world together.

Modern EQ has not only failed to solve the problems of mudflation, they have actively embraced as a part of their game. The player base that has remained on live EQ doesn't mind it. They even enjoy it from my conversations on live. New expansion, can't wait to get a new set of armor with slightly higher stats, etc.

[Solonus]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Modern EQ has not only failed to solve the problems of mudflation, they have actively embraced as a part of their game. The player base that has remained on live EQ doesn't mind it. They even enjoy it from my conversations on live. New expansion, can't wait to get a new set of armor with slightly higher stats, etc.

To be fair, you just described every MMO expansion ever. That's always the case with any game with any new expansion; new items with a slight increase in stats from the previous expansion, and the active player base tends to be excited about obtaining a minimal upgrade because that's the carrot on a stick to keep playing the game. That's the whole point.

Sure, EQ's has gotten to the point where the stats are getting out of hand, but that's expected in a 15 year old game. It's no different than any other game expansion, just bigger numbers.

[rayeatts]

Originally Posted by Solonus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To be fair, you just described every MMO expansion ever. That's always the case with any game with any new expansion; new items with a slight increase in stats from the previous expansion, and the active player base tends to be excited about obtaining a minimal upgrade because that's the carrot on a stick to keep playing the game. That's the whole point.

Sure, EQ's has gotten to the point where the stats are getting out of hand, but that's expected in a 15 year old game. It's no different than any other game expansion, just bigger numbers.

This is why they need to expand the game horizontally, not just vertically.

New content should include new leveling zones, new leveling dungeons, with incentives to use them.

Then the new leveling content would require more players to roll new toons if they wanted to experience the new low level content. That would breathe new life into the low zones constantly, providing an enjoyable experience for new players, thus preventing the game from evolving into something for veterans only.

[Thulack]

Originally Posted by rayeatts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is why they need to expand the game horizontally, not just vertically.

New content should include new leveling zones, new leveling dungeons, with incentives to use them.

Then the new leveling content would require more players to roll new toons if they wanted to experience the new low level content. That would breathe new life into the low zones constantly, providing an enjoyable experience for new players, thus preventing the game from evolving into something for veterans only.

Not everyone enjoys alts or having to restart to experience "new content" People dont want to go horizontally. They want a reason to keep playing and advancing their characters.

[rayeatts]

Originally Posted by Thulack [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not everyone enjoys alts or having to restart to experience "new content" People dont want to go horizontally. They want a reason to keep playing and advancing their characters.

Yeah, I'm saying that many mmorpgs should expand horizontally, not just vertically. There should still be vertical expansion too.

[Solonus]

Originally Posted by rayeatts [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is why they need to expand the game horizontally, not just vertically.

New content should include new leveling zones, new leveling dungeons, with incentives to use them.

Then the new leveling content would require more players to roll new toons if they wanted to experience the new low level content. That would breathe new life into the low zones constantly, providing an enjoyable experience for new players, thus preventing the game from evolving into something for veterans only.

True. And this is one area where i'd say EQ out did even current MMOs. When Kunark and Velious came out, they added a whole new set of leveling zones to compliment the already existing ones in the old world. (I can't speak on current EQ expansions, but I know the expansion that had the Drakkin race had some new lower level zones to exp in.) Yes, said leveling zones in Kunark/Velious were of a higher difficulty/mobs had higher hp/dps, but that was due to McQuaid being butthurt over his content being cleared too quickly.

That's something we don't even really see in current MMOs. Every WoW expansion is simply new content for going from the previous level cap to the next. Same thing for FFXIV, and almost every other MMO out there.

[rayeatts]

honestly, the very idea of "expanding" a game is that it will result in a different game than the one that people originally fell in love with. The conclusion I'm drawing now is that they simply should not release too many expansions at all. Maybe one or 2.

But the game should be much closer to a finished product when it is originally released. But then the question becomes, "What is a finished product?"

Because right not live has like 20+ expansions and it's still not finished. So I guess that idea is not possible then.

Back to the drawing board.

[JurisDictum]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I haven't played Live in many years. I can't comment on it directly. I can say this: Most stat improvement is little more than an illusion. The stats that actually matter, such as kill rate, tank lifespan, and such things tend to stay the same. Hitting a 1000 hit point monster for 20 is effectively the same as hitting a 100000 hit point monster for 2000. You might feel stronger because you can go back and wreck obsolete content that used to be tough....but it's still no different than going back when you're level 60 and wrecking Black Burrow.

I don't know of any of the Everquest-style online games that have figured out how to control stat inflation. Players expect upgrades with expansions so it isn't an easy problem to solve. As I understand, the problem got so bad in Warcraft that Blizzard actually had to go in and lop off some zeros off everything. Whoever eventually figures out a good solution to the inflation issue might be seen as one of the genre's next big innovators.

Danth

As I'm sure we all know, EQ revamped a lot of zones that were becoming obsolete/dated in Velious -- like Fear, Chardok, and Droga. The problem is -- they never really wanted to put too much effort into revamping old content. It was a big deal when CT dropped the new Velious-grade items....fear mattered again. A lot of times they had a habit of introducing content that is interesting/useful, but not on par with current expansion. And it was a small minority of zones that were revamped or updated. This results in zone death and makes it difficult for new players to climb to the current content.

Now stat inflation may be an unsolvable problem. MMOs need new progression for expansions. But that doesn't mean that it ever should have gotten like it was when I tried to roll a war on live PoP. Lets just say -- I barely got 65 and quit when I realized I couldn't tank any good exp zones. They could have continued to scale the old content for newer players.