Let's Put to Rest "Outdoor is/is not FFA" Myths

[Wiley]

The rules are pretty clear as far as I understand them. Outside or indoors if you and/or group is at or near the mobs spawn location and pulling as they spawn then its considered a camp. If your trying to hold down more spawns elsewhere then those can be contested.

Originally Posted by QFuzzle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2) If the whole fort/area is being killed proficiently by a group, it's their camp. Not FFA.

Edit again, that is technically correct but you must forfeit some of the spawns of another group wants in, from Derupal's server rules thread above:

That being said, you can absolutely "camp" mobs, and you cannot steal another players 'camp'. In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders cleared. You do not necessarily need to be at the spawn point to call it 'claimed' while it is uncontested, however, if someone else wishes to contest the 'camp' you do need to return to the 'camp' and maintain a presence at or very near the spawn(s) in order to hold it. It should also be noted that if you camp out or leave the zone (this includes dying/"corpsing" items), you have forfeited a camp. You cannot hold multiple 'camps' if another group wishes to contest one that you are holding. The player holding multiple 'camps' retains the right to choose which 'camp' to give up.

[NegaStoat]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seems pretty clearly laid out to me.

If literally the entire fort is being cleared and mobs are not being left up for more than a few seconds, then for all intents and purposes that is a "camp". If someone waltzes in and starts sniping spawns in the few seconds before the group pulls them, then that person is being a complete asshole and should be petitioned.

And to be clear, waltzing in and sniping spawns isn't "contesting" a camp - it's just being an asshole. Contesting a camp means engaging in dialogue with the players like a reasonable person and expressing that you want some of those mobs if they aren't killing all of them.

With my necromancer I was camping the dwarves at the dock in Butcherblock, keeping the two common dwarves by the shoreline dead and the two with longer respawns at the ends of the piers. The four spawns were broken and I was making my attacks on them within 3-5 seconds of their spawning in (one at a time, in turn). A shaman showed up and parked right on top of one of the common dwarf spawns as I was killing one on the pier.

I let the shaman know politely that I had the four spawns camped and identified them, but let the player know that I wasn't after the dwarves within the huts or the solo paladin dwarf that was around the wall by the shoreline. The shaman waited until the single commoner spawned and then started killing. I made one more attempt to ask the person to please leave my camped 4 spawns alone. That this point the player made their first reply to me, which was "I'm killing this one."

I shrugged and petitioned. I had been camping those 4 spawns all within LOS of each other for the past couple of hours. I didn't feel like moving on, or that I should have to. Braknar politely responded in less than 15 minutes to inform me that all simple outdoor mobs could only be camped in singles, including mobs with a roaming patrol path - assuming the player is camping their spawn point.

After hearing this I replied to Braknar - "Okay. Let's pretend that I'm at the Lesser Faydark bandit camp called the Sisters, where there's 4 spawns all very close to each other. Are you telling me that a single player cannot camp those 4 spawns and have it respected? That at any time another player can sit down and claim one or more of them, since I as the original person there can only claim one?"

Braknar replied that it would sadly be the case that the staff could only defend my camping one mob that is outdoors, even in that situation. And that I should be encouraged to resolve the matter with the other player if at all possible.

It was around this time that I took a break from the game. I didn't agree with what was going on, especially with what I had experienced on old live retail servers like Brell Serelis, but that's what was up.

[paulgiamatti]

That's certainly a point of contention I'd have with outdoor camp enforcement, assuming that's still the way it's enforced. But in that case everything I've said thus far rings just as true - that person is still just as big of an asshole for taking before talking, even if enforcement's on his side, and he should still be petitioned if for no other reason than to encourage the staff to change the way they enforce outdoor camps.

[QFuzzle]

Originally Posted by NegaStoat [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With my necromancer I was camping the dwarves at the dock in Butcherblock, keeping the two common dwarves by the shoreline dead and the two with longer respawns at the ends of the piers. The four spawns were broken and I was making my attacks on them within 3-5 seconds of their spawning in (one at a time, in turn). A shaman showed up and parked right on top of one of the common dwarf spawns as I was killing one on the pier.

I let the shaman know politely that I had the four spawns camped and identified them, but let the player know that I wasn't after the dwarves within the huts or the solo paladin dwarf that was around the wall by the shoreline. The shaman waited until the single commoner spawned and then started killing. I made one more attempt to ask the person to please leave my camped 4 spawns alone. That this point the player made their first reply to me, which was "I'm killing this one."

I shrugged and petitioned. I had been camping those 4 spawns all within LOS of each other for the past couple of hours. I didn't feel like moving on, or that I should have to. Braknar politely responded in less than 15 minutes to inform me that all simple outdoor mobs could only be camped in singles, including mobs with a roaming patrol path - assuming the player is camping their spawn point.

After hearing this I replied to Braknar - "Okay. Let's pretend that I'm at the Lesser Faydark bandit camp called the Sisters, where there's 4 spawns all very close to each other. Are you telling me that a single player cannot camp those 4 spawns and have it respected? That at any time another player can sit down and claim one or more of them, since I as the original person there can only claim one?"

Braknar replied that it would sadly be the case that the staff could only defend my camping one mob that is outdoors, even in that situation. And that I should be encouraged to resolve the matter with the other player if at all possible.

It was around this time that I took a break from the game. I didn't agree with what was going on, especially with what I had experienced on old live retail servers like Brell Serelis, but that's what was up.

I wonder if it would have been a different story if it were you and a buddy (thus a "group") camping those dwarves in exactly the same manner, instead of just you.

Hmm...

[paulgiamatti]

If there's one message that I think should universally apply, it's communication. It's impossible to imagine a scenario where someone decides to be a dick and move in on someone else's camp without a word, and both parties end up happy. Either one party leaves, a begrudging compromise is made, or it escalates.

[NegaStoat]

Originally Posted by paulgiamatti [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's certainly a point of contention I'd have with outdoor camp enforcement, assuming that's still the way it's enforced. But in that case everything I've said thus far rings just as true - that person is still just as big of an asshole for taking before talking, even if enforcement's on his side, and he should still be petitioned if for no other reason than to encourage the staff to change the way they enforce outdoor camps.

Pretty true. I think the lesson I learned after the above event with the dock dwarf camp was to take the time to take a screenshot with a time stamp when you're done breaking a camp and have it secure, every time. Later, if an issue pops up immediately take another set of screnshots with the chat window as events unfold. Try to be diplomatic, but don't give an inch on a camp consisting of 4 spawns or less within LOS of each other. If the player doesn't take the hint, name and shame on the RnF boards if the other player is being completely unreasonable and smug.

The server staff might not enforce the topic of camps, but player reputation still counts for something. Just make an effort of being patient and making it an open and shut case that the other player is a choad.

[Red_Messiah]

Start banning people who consistently petition to lawyer their way into pixels imo

[Xaanka]

Originally Posted by NegaStoat [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With my necromancer I was camping the dwarves at the dock in Butcherblock, keeping the two common dwarves by the shoreline dead and the two with longer respawns at the ends of the piers. The four spawns were broken and I was making my attacks on them within 3-5 seconds of their spawning in (one at a time, in turn). A shaman showed up and parked right on top of one of the common dwarf spawns as I was killing one on the pier.

I let the shaman know politely that I had the four spawns camped and identified them, but let the player know that I wasn't after the dwarves within the huts or the solo paladin dwarf that was around the wall by the shoreline. The shaman waited until the single commoner spawned and then started killing. I made one more attempt to ask the person to please leave my camped 4 spawns alone. That this point the player made their first reply to me, which was "I'm killing this one."

I shrugged and petitioned. I had been camping those 4 spawns all within LOS of each other for the past couple of hours. I didn't feel like moving on, or that I should have to. Braknar politely responded in less than 15 minutes to inform me that all simple outdoor mobs could only be camped in singles, including mobs with a roaming patrol path - assuming the player is camping their spawn point.

After hearing this I replied to Braknar - "Okay. Let's pretend that I'm at the Lesser Faydark bandit camp called the Sisters, where there's 4 spawns all very close to each other. Are you telling me that a single player cannot camp those 4 spawns and have it respected? That at any time another player can sit down and claim one or more of them, since I as the original person there can only claim one?"

Braknar replied that it would sadly be the case that the staff could only defend my camping one mob that is outdoors, even in that situation. And that I should be encouraged to resolve the matter with the other player if at all possible.

It was around this time that I took a break from the game. I didn't agree with what was going on, especially with what I had experienced on old live retail servers like Brell Serelis, but that's what was up.

played on red for years and literally never had to think this many words about the camp rules

[A1rh3ad]

Originally Posted by NegaStoat [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With my necromancer I was camping the dwarves at the dock in Butcherblock, keeping the two common dwarves by the shoreline dead and the two with longer respawns at the ends of the piers. The four spawns were broken and I was making my attacks on them within 3-5 seconds of their spawning in (one at a time, in turn). A shaman showed up and parked right on top of one of the common dwarf spawns as I was killing one on the pier.

I let the shaman know politely that I had the four spawns camped and identified them, but let the player know that I wasn't after the dwarves within the huts or the solo paladin dwarf that was around the wall by the shoreline. The shaman waited until the single commoner spawned and then started killing. I made one more attempt to ask the person to please leave my camped 4 spawns alone. That this point the player made their first reply to me, which was "I'm killing this one."

I shrugged and petitioned. I had been camping those 4 spawns all within LOS of each other for the past couple of hours. I didn't feel like moving on, or that I should have to. Braknar politely responded in less than 15 minutes to inform me that all simple outdoor mobs could only be camped in singles, including mobs with a roaming patrol path - assuming the player is camping their spawn point.

After hearing this I replied to Braknar - "Okay. Let's pretend that I'm at the Lesser Faydark bandit camp called the Sisters, where there's 4 spawns all very close to each other. Are you telling me that a single player cannot camp those 4 spawns and have it respected? That at any time another player can sit down and claim one or more of them, since I as the original person there can only claim one?"

Braknar replied that it would sadly be the case that the staff could only defend my camping one mob that is outdoors, even in that situation. And that I should be encouraged to resolve the matter with the other player if at all possible.

It was around this time that I took a break from the game. I didn't agree with what was going on, especially with what I had experienced on old live retail servers like Brell Serelis, but that's what was up.

Imo he was just asking for one. I would have been the nice guy and given him two on the ends to pull while i easily camped the two close together, but that's just me. If he just wanted to camp one I believe that would be more than fair. Those dwarves are pretty spread out. Thats like kiting a whole line more than a camp.

[NegaStoat]

Originally Posted by A1rh3ad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Imo he was just asking for one. I would have been the nice guy and given him two on the ends to pull while i easily camped the two close together, but that's just me. If he just wanted to camp one I believe that would be more than fair. Those dwarves are pretty spread out. Thats like kiting a whole line more than a camp.

I get the fact that the player was just after one dwarf, and might have wanted to avoid faction hits (as a troll shaman though?) in wanting one of the commoners. There were the two commoner dwarves in the hut along with the paladin on the side by himself, which I mentioned to the dude at the time. The thing at the time was dealing with a refusal of communication from the player - a deal of "I'm not going to respect this person enough bother with typing more than 3 words because I am right" that I was facing.

I agree that I could have taken the 2 in the hut and one by the shore and it would have been okay with my meager mana pool that I was working with. I'll also agree that I shouldn't have let it get under my skin. It's just that I had read a previous ruling by GM's on the subject of camps that "up to 4 mobs, all within LOS of each other" as being a respected valid camp. I was surprised to see it had been tossed out the window for the "outdoors - single spawn camp" rule that seemingly had come out of nowhere. This had happened a long while back.