Questioning GM Decisions

[G13]

Originally Posted by mwatt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have no evidence that what you postulate is true - i.e. that one guild is receiving special treatment over others. I suppose if I saw a systematic favoritism applied over time, It might give me cause to consider my stay here. But this is a one shot deal. Because of the large number of potential accounts that would dissappear, I can see how Rogean and staff would give consideration to waiving their own rules on a one time basis. If the result of said one time leniency appeared from some perspective as if it favored a certain guild or guilds, I would not get all dramatic about it - this would not be a systematic application of favoritism.

You're confused. We're talking about 2 different things. I'm talking about a raid leader who was caught using a 3rd party hack during a competitive raid. This issue is beyond the 365 accounts being caught hacking. The 365 accounts should be banned permanently, but this is beyond that. Secondly, I don't believe in leniency when it comes to hacking anyways, so your premise concerning "special treatment" is null and void. I believe punishment should be handed out fairly and that hasn't happened yet.

Here are the facts:

1) Guild A had an officer caught using SEQ while tracking. Not during an actual raid mind you. Tracking. The punishment was a 2 week raid suspension for the entire guild.

Guild A later had a member caught using SEQ. Keep in mind he was not even at the potential raid. He was in Lguk farming. Guild A received another 2 week vacation from raiding. I agreed with both rulings. Guild A suffered as a result, and rightly so. They lost members. Weren't able to raid, and their reputation was damaged.

2) Guild B has their raid leader caught using SEQ during an actual competitive raid. Guild B suffers no punishment. Guild B claims they will accept the cheater back into their ranks with open arms. (which is basically a FU to the devs) Will probably also reward him with money and plvling. Keep in mind that not all their members know the right people within their guild to be given this opportunity.

The rules are the rules. This server is supposed to not be a haven for cheaters. Cheaters using 3rd party software are not supposed to be shown leniency. They undermine the credibility of the server.

Again, this is Nilborgs's and Rogean's and company's house. I trust them to do what is basically the right thing, with a little bit of autocraticness thrown in. Goddamn, they built it and maintain it. That gives them the right. So far, I very much like the result of their decisions. I don't agree with all of them (e.g. the recent announcement of SoF support going away) but that's just too bad for me.

I no longer trust them to do the right thing after this appalling ruling that is a slap in the face to every player who has played on this server for years by the rules. I hope they re evaluate their decision and do the right thing. It's long overdue.

Again, overall, I like what they do here. Unless they consistently and repeatedly begin to dissappoint me I won't leave. Under no circumstances will I start some sort of crusade to change things or try to rile people up. I will and have stated opinions on things in the past, and I think it is ok to politely discuss them up to a point. Beyond a certain point I will not go - it is bad manners and it might be construed as biting the hand that feeds me.

Then Project 1999 should not have any rules against cheaters if they aren't going to properly enforce them. They shouldn't have raid suspended past guilds for using SEQ, and then let another guild slide without any punishment. Not even a warning. Nothing. Instead their guild members are creating threads, trying to manipulate the narrative that every other guild whose officers don't cheat will just have to keep quiet and suck it up.

In regard to sharing the server with cheaters... these guys are doing a lot more than I have seen done anywhere else to identify and punish cheaters. I don't see a one time pseudo-amnesty as evidence of corruption. I see it as an attempt to make a practical decision. Obviously some people disagree with it. Fine. Say so, then either leave or stay, but let it go.

By allowing those accounts to continue to be active here, we are now sharing the server with cheaters. You can spin it emotionally and rationalize it any way you want to, but at the end of the day you're sharing the server with cheaters. Ultimately it's up to you to decide if it's environment you want to spend your time in. I've been playing on this server a long time. The 365 banned accounts was bad enough, but for the developers to not permanently ban them and take action against guilds whose officers were caught hacking is appalling to me. I thought the devs had better sense than that and more pride in the community their project brought together.

Instead they are allowing a cancer to fester and grow.

[mimixownzall]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First of all, saying that unless your demands are met, some harm will come to the people being demanded of is tantamount to terrorism, which is exactly what you just did when you said "Delete the cheaters' items or there will be irrevocable damage done to the rest of the server. P99 will never be the same..." This is terrorism plain and simple, and this is the tactic employed by a large majority of the group of posters who are being detrimental to the health of the server at the current time.

What? This, seriously, is.... well this isn't RNF so I'm not sure if I can type what I want.

So what you're saying is that when I tell someone they they should wear their seatbelt or they might die in an otherwise minor accident is me being a terrorist? Lock your doors or someone might break in and steal your stuff and/or kill you is terrorism?

I don't remember reading where Slave threatened to personally do something that would cause harm to the server if their items weren't deleted. Sounds like he is warning of possible repercussions from the community if they dont.

Propaganda? Possibly, since the repercussions can't really be proven until they happen.
Terrorism? No.

[mimixownzall]

What most of us can agree on:

If they had just stuck to their rules and banned all the accounts, we would:

1) Still have Uthgaard.
2) See minimal impact on server population (apparent now)
3) 95% of the drama over the past week would not exist.
4) Still have tags /cryface
5) Not have several high level cheaters returning with their equipment and be back to level 60 in less time than they were suspended and laughing quietly inside knowing that they cheated and got a slap on the wrist while many others were permantly banned for lesser offenses.
6) Gotten rid of people (cheaters) most of the population has no desire to see around at all.

The only thing we would still be dealing with would be the issue of raiding suspensions. This could easily be solved by just going off of what has set precedence in the past; if this includes suspending raiding for all guilds, then so be it.

I guess you learn from your mistakes.

[mitic]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here are the facts:

Guild A later had a member caught using SEQ. Keep in mind he was not even at the potential raid. He was in Lguk farming. Guild A received another 2 week vacation from raiding.

Guild B has their raid leader caught using SEQ during an actual competitive raid. Guild B suffers no punishment.

so 1 (one) guy was caught back the day and got banned and his guild received a vaction from raiding, shit happens pal.

now, 365 (threehundredsixtyfive) ppl have been caught and all you want is a "revenge" for the past neglecting all other cheaters who have been caught too.

ok, iam all for that, but then again lets be 100% fair, do we?

what happens to the rest of those other threehundredfifty+ cheaters ? are we going to set every guild on raidvacation? i bet all my rl money that every single major guild had hackers in them (tmo included). i dont give a fuck if someone was an officer, leader, regularmember, a honorary member or the mascot of the guild cause a cheater is a cheater is a cheater is a cheater.

i would completely concur with you, if only (read: ONLY) TR would have been caught but in this exceptional circumstance of 365 busted cheaters u just cant blame 1-2ppl of 1 guild alone.

bottom line, it just can get better from now on since p99staff apparently found something viable to hunt them cheaters down. gj again rogean, secrets & nil.

[Kevlar]

I think the GMs should have stuck to the original server rules and perma banned these asshats. I can't say keeping a bunch of known hackers is enough to cause me to leave the server right at this moment, but it certainly has me keeping one foot in the door and looking at other EQEMU servers. The reason I picked this one in the first place was the strict rules which apparently aren't as strict as they originally sounded.

[mwatt]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're confused. We're talking about 2 different things. I'm talking about a raid leader who was caught using a 3rd party hack during a competitive raid. This issue is beyond the 365 accounts being caught hacking. The 365 accounts should be banned permanently, but this is beyond that. Secondly, I don't believe in leniency when it comes to hacking anyways, so your premise concerning "special treatment" is null and void. I believe punishment should be handed out fairly and that hasn't happened yet.

Here are the facts:

1) Guild A had an officer caught using SEQ while tracking. Not during an actual raid mind you. Tracking. The punishment was a 2 week raid suspension for the entire guild.

Guild A later had a member caught using SEQ. Keep in mind he was not even at the potential raid. He was in Lguk farming. Guild A received another 2 week vacation from raiding. I agreed with both rulings. Guild A suffered as a result, and rightly so. They lost members. Weren't able to raid, and their reputation was damaged.

2) Guild B has their raid leader caught using SEQ during an actual competitive raid. Guild B suffers no punishment. Guild B claims they will accept the cheater back into their ranks with open arms. (which is basically a FU to the devs) Will probably also reward him with money and plvling. Keep in mind that not all their members know the right people within their guild to be given this opportunity.

The rules are the rules. This server is supposed to not be a haven for cheaters. Cheaters using 3rd party software are not supposed to be shown leniency. They undermine the credibility of the server.



I no longer trust them to do the right thing after this appalling ruling that is a slap in the face to every player who has played on this server for years by the rules. I hope they re evaluate their decision and do the right thing. It's long overdue.



Then Project 1999 should not have any rules against cheaters if they aren't going to properly enforce them. They shouldn't have raid suspended past guilds for using SEQ, and then let another guild slide without any punishment. Not even a warning. Nothing. Instead their guild members are creating threads, trying to manipulate the narrative that every other guild whose officers don't cheat will just have to keep quiet and suck it up.



By allowing those accounts to continue to be active here, we are now sharing the server with cheaters. You can spin it emotionally and rationalize it any way you want to, but at the end of the day you're sharing the server with cheaters. Ultimately it's up to you to decide if it's environment you want to spend your time in. I've been playing on this server a long time. The 365 banned accounts was bad enough, but for the developers to not permanently ban them and take action against guilds whose officers were caught hacking is appalling to me. I thought the devs had better sense than that and more pride in the community their project brought together.

Instead they are allowing a cancer to fester and grow.

Actually, I'm not confused at all. The opening premise of this post surely covers the 365 cheater episode. You may be referring to more than that in some of your posts, but it matters not to me. What I see here is a bunch of arm chair lawyering and people wanting absolute fairness in a system that is not a democracy. Considering the amount of absolute power that Rogean and staff has, I think they administer things pretty reasonably.

Your dramatic, "black and white" attitude towards a gray world does not impress me either. I have much more reason to trust in what Rogean says and does than to put faith and trust in what you say, whom I don't even know anything about. I don't care one whit about guild squabbles, and you impress me as someone who probably has a guild-based motivation at the root of your reasons for posting in these matters. If that is incorrect, my apologies.

As for "spinning it emotionally" - I have no idea why you think I am emotional about this. I am very calm and matter of fact. It seems to me that you are the one with the emotional investment.

Buttom line: yeah I still trust Rogean and definitely I trust his assertions more than yours. No offense, but he and his associates have given me EQ back. What have you done for me?

[mitic]

Originally Posted by Kevlar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think the GMs should have stuck to the original server rules and perma banned these asshats. I can't say keeping a bunch of known hackers is enough to cause me to leave the server right at this moment, but it certainly has me keeping one foot in the door and looking at other EQEMU servers. The reason I picked this one in the first place was the strict rules which apparently aren't as strict as they originally sounded.

i fail to understand your logic

so P99 is the first server in all eq-emu history that found a viable way to hunt them cheaters down and all i read is: "fuck this server, i gona leave"

there are rules here, yes, but sometimes there are exceptional circumstances overriding them rules.

[Hasbinbad]

Most of you guys are making valid points, but hardly any of them touch on the topic of this thread. The topic is that a small group of people are posting threads which are probably detrimental to the server over time, rather than following the outlined methods for voicing grievances. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with what you guys are saying, I'm disagreeing with how you're going about it. If you really want change for the server, follow the rules.

Go about it the right way: compile your evidence; present it in a clear and unmistakable manner to the correct people who have the power to do something about it; don't make useless waves on the server just to hear yourselves rouse rabble; If awareness is a serious issue, make ONE serious post about it in Server Chat (why would you post seriously in RnF, obviously nothing is going to be done about those posts), and gather your support in a realistic manner; present an alternative to the staff which is supported by a large percentage of the server. If THAT doesn't work, accept that fact and either get over it or quit.

Rabble rousing and torch waving isn't getting us anywhere. You're possibly scaring away new players and probably making older players (who had no part in cheating) want to quit. This is across the board and hardly debatable. The only reason I'm here is because of the negative morale shift I've seen (outside my guild mind you) since this latest tide of posts concerning how the rules weren't enforced to your liking. Questioning the GM's publicly is making them less likely to acquiesce to your requests, not more so.

So what are you guys gaining by continuing? Nothing. You get to hear yourselves rant and circle jerk each other into nerdgasm with your shared hatred of Perun, slavering for revenge, blind to the harm you're causing innocents.

So how about you guys organize and go about it in such a way that something might be accomplished. That or sack up and realize things don't always go your way and just stop with the 3rd grade hatespam.

[Autotune]

Originally Posted by mitic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

so 1 (one) guy was caught back the day and got banned and his guild received a vaction from raiding, shit happens pal.

now, 365 (threehundredsixtyfive) ppl have been caught and all you want is a "revenge" for the past neglecting all other cheaters who have been caught too.

ok, iam all for that, but then again lets be 100% fair, do we?

what happens to the rest of those other threehundredfifty+ cheaters ? are we going to set every guild on raidvacation? i bet all my rl money that every single major guild had hackers in them (tmo included). i dont give a fuck if someone was an officer, leader, regularmember, a honorary member or the mascot of the guild cause a cheater is a cheater is a cheater is a cheater.

i would completely concur with you, if only (read: ONLY) TR would have been caught but in this exceptional circumstance of 365 busted cheaters u just cant blame 1-2ppl of 1 guild alone.

bottom line, it just can get better from now on since p99staff apparently found something viable to hunt them cheaters down. gj again rogean, secrets & nil.

1 account =/= 1 person.

[Aenor]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is the freedom of people to speak their mind - in a manner which has been prohibited, and when the proper manner has been outlined - worth the negative impact this campaign is probably having on this community?

Again, as an outsider on Blue 99 (bout to ding 13 on my dru), and as a sometime PR professional, here's my perspective. While your reasoning certainly follows the letter of the law, it is very obvious that Rogean and Nilbog are setting aside those rules in this instance so as not to appear as if they have something to hide. Allowing people to question the legitimacy of the project does less damage than shutting those people up and confirming their suspicions.

Their agenda seems to be the long term health of the project. Your agenda seems to be to ease the inconvenience of the ongoing discussion for yourself and your ingame associates.