the EVIDENCE that GOD exists is the FACT that EXISTENCE EXISTS

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your entire argument is predicated on the idea that the atrocities you mention came because of the secular shift in the same way that the advances hitchens mentions, which I dispute, and I have said why. Everything follows from that, which is false.

on the contrary, my entire argument is that the atrocities hitchens is so eager to ascribe to religion were not in any way diluted or lessened by a secular shift

i'm not saying secularism caused the atrocities of the 20th century. i'm saying a shift away from state religion and toward secular government did nothing to curb them. whether it was done for zeus, jesus, allah, the proletariat, aryan nation, or freedom didn't really impact the scope or magnitude of crimes against humanity

[finalgrunt]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

on the contrary, my entire argument is that the atrocities hitchens is so eager to ascribe to religion were not in any way diluted or lessened by a secular shift

i'm not saying secularism caused the atrocities of the 20th century. i'm saying a shift away from state religion and toward secular government did nothing to curb them. whether it was done for zeus, jesus, allah, the proletariat, aryan nation, or freedom didn't really impact the scope or magnitude of crimes against humanity

They all shared the concept of fanaticism. Every time some people came to the conclusion they were better than their neighbors for whatever reason they thought, it didn't end well.

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

on the contrary, my entire argument is that the atrocities hitchens is so eager to ascribe to religion were not in any way diluted or lessened by a secular shift

i'm not saying secularism caused the atrocities of the 20th century. i'm saying a shift away from state religion and toward secular government did nothing to curb them. whether it was done for zeus, jesus, allah, the proletariat, aryan nation, or freedom didn't really impact the scope or magnitude of crimes against humanity

ok so.

In my humble opinion: "people governing themselves without the overriding and overwhelming, pervasive and insidious nature of religion influencing every aspect of their lives" hasn't yet had it's day in court. We're still in the trasition phase. We've had possibly tens of thousands of years under the bondage of superstition, and the modern scientific movement to explain the nature of the universe in real terms is barely 100 years old, at the fullest extent of any rhetoric about what constitutes modern understanding. Religion still in fact holds sway in may places on earth. We haven't had a "shift away from state religion," but rather we are currently shifting. You claim that this shift hasn't diluted tyranny, but my friend, you're trying to dilute the ocean with a lake. It's going to take time.

[Eliseus]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ok so.

In my humble opinion: "people governing themselves without the overriding and overwhelming, pervasive and insidious nature of religion influencing every aspect of their lives" hasn't yet had it's day in court. We're still in the trasition phase. We've had possibly tens of thousands of years under the bondage of superstition, and the modern scientific movement to explain the nature of the universe in real terms is barely 100 years old, at the fullest extent of any rhetoric about what constitutes modern understanding. Religion still in fact holds sway in may places on earth. We haven't had a "shift away from state religion," but rather we are currently shifting. You claim that this shift hasn't diluted tyranny, but my friend, you're trying to dilute the ocean with a lake. It's going to take time.

I think this "transition" phase doesn't currently exist right now. Maybe it will one day, but considering majority of the U.S. population still feels that we need religion, we won't be seeing it for a while. Now, has this religious hold changed dramatically since the the colonization? Sure, but it's definitely still there, and is the majority (not even close to not the majority I might add) Sorry, just had to point out that there won't be any day soon that this "court" date you speak of will happen.

Also considering the constitution, it will most like NEVER make its day in court unless things in the U.S. are drastically changed, by that time, it will probably be the end of the World, so don't get your hopes up.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ok so.

In my humble opinion: "people governing themselves without the overriding and overwhelming, pervasive and insidious nature of religion influencing every aspect of their lives" hasn't yet had it's day in court. We're still in the trasition phase. We've had possibly tens of thousands of years under the bondage of superstition, and the modern scientific movement to explain the nature of the universe in real terms is barely 100 years old, at the fullest extent of any rhetoric about what constitutes modern understanding. Religion still in fact holds sway in may places on earth. We haven't had a "shift away from state religion," but rather we are currently shifting. You claim that this shift hasn't diluted tyranny, but my friend, you're trying to dilute the ocean with a lake. It's going to take time.

fair. my conception is different, but that's fair.

to me, religion is a replaceable red herring. most of the atrocities ascribed to religion were in fact driven by far more secular and cynical motivations. religion used to be a catch-all. it was nationalism, it was class warfare, it was racism, it was xenophobia, it was greed. in nazi germany, instead of killing for god, they killed for racial purity. 200, 500, 1500 years earlier, the same type of killings would've been primed in religious terms. stalin murdered anyone who opposed him. instead of religion, he did it in the name of the proletariat and the revolution. today, instead of screaming christ, we scream freedom or national security.

governments and people kill and oppress now for the same reasons they always have. religion is an easy rallying cry, but it's not a necessary one. if it's not religion, it's political ideology or racial purity or economic equity or nationalism