Forced Rotation Isn't Classic

[Bigcountry23]

Originally Posted by Barkingturtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think there's really only one viable solution to this conundrum:

Merge the guilds.

I fully support Inglorious Transcendence or Transcendent Bastards with the caviot that the boiler plate GM response to GM questions be "This is a guild issue, handle it yourself".

The problem is they would spend so much time arguing about the name that it would never happen.

[Kutles]

Originally Posted by Fanwen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So work things out between yourselves

Agreed.

[Keystone]

Originally Posted by Wenai [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here. I will lay it all out on the table...

True.


I have no problem with competition. But I will detail below where the PVP mentality came into play.


True. But this isn't what was happening here.


There was no one crying about not getting their fair share of Naggy. This is not the issue at all. Let me break it down for you exactly how everything played out.

1. IB was the first guild to peak and basically was killing all the raid targets with absolutely no competition.

IB - Happy
Trans - Sad

2. Server got DDoS'd which caused us to be down for a few days. Naggy was supposed to spawn in those few days which meant that as soon as the server came up, Naggy was spawned and ready. Trans was the first guild there and attempted Naggy and failed initially. IB showed up and wanted to "leapfrog" them because they were ready to go and Trans had not gotten rebuffed yet. I told them that Trans was there first and had every right to give it another shot. After the attempt that I watched there was still no IB in the zone.

IB - Sad
Trans - Happy

3. My memory is a little foggy here so I can't remember if Trans got the next Naggy or if IB did. Basically the next occurrence I remember was Trans showing up two hours early for Nagafen to claim the spawn. They were the first raid force there and had every right to get the first attempt.

IB - Sad
Trans - Happy

4. IB decides that they want to play this game as well. They showed up five hours early to kill FGs and claim the camp. Transcendence showed up in the zone and I asked them to move along as IB was there before just like in the past incident. IB gets the right to do Nagafen first.

IB - Happy
Trans - Sad

5. Trans decided to up the ante. Trans shows up eight hours early for Vox so that they can claim the spawn. This is starting to get a little bit ridiculous and became clear that the guilds just couldn't get along. Trans got to claim Vox.

IB - Sad
Trans - Happy

6. Trans decides to put an exclamation mark on the current system. They showed up fourteen hours early for Nagafen's spawn. IB is completely incensed and decide "as a guild," as I have been told over and over, that the system they have been following for weeks should no longer apply to them. IB passed Trans (who have been ready to go for 14 hours) and decides they were going to sit in Nagafen's lair 20 minutes before he is supposed to spawn. This is when the rotation went into place..

.................

So let's go through these instances that happened over these weeks. I talked to Otto individually. I talked to Allizia individually. I talked to Otto and Allizia together. Aeolwind talked to them together. We tried our best to help you guys sort out a solution. We tried our best to get you guys to work out a compromise.

Contrary to popular belief, Trans never came to me and suggested a rotation. Contrary to the tin foil hat perched atop your head, Trans never made the rules. It is actually pretty hilarious. Is IB so soon to forget all the people claiming we were feeding IB all this info and favortism? Remember how much that was bullshit and you guys knew the truth that we weren't doing you guys any favors? This is the same fucking bullshit. We aren't doing anything for Trans.

I will tell you this though. If Trans wanted a rotation, I guess they lucked out because it certainly is the most fair way to handle things. Your guys' suggestion of "Whoever does the most damage gets the kill," is not a system that we are going to operate under. Consider raid targets part of the PNP rules is basically what we asked you guys. Don't kill steal, don't camp steal and just make ethical decisions. While Trans is at fault as well by taking the system we were using to the extreme, I feel that IB's method for solving this issue of: Ignore it and just let us both engage the raid mob is completely unethical. This is a PVP mentality and has no place on this server. When a guild is there preparing for a raid. Leave them alone, move on to another target or do something else.

Every server had different guidelines for following raids. Some servers (apparently) were allowed to just zerg raid targets and whoever got the kill got it. Some servers operated under a guild-enforced rotation. Others just respected each other and let guilds who got there first take the target. Is a GM-enforced rotation where we wanted to go? Hell no. We wanted nothing to do with this garbage but you guys left us no choice. Rotation was the most fair way to handle it. Because guess what... IB still gets raid targets. And if you want the truth, there is no way that IB was going to win under the system we were operating under before. You wanted the system changed... you got it changed. Congrats.

Between school, keeping my own play characters at least somewhere with the pace of the rest of the server, and baby sitting you guys... I don't have time to do ANY fixes. Every day I am dealing with talking to someone from one of the two guilds over something. Seriously guys, I do this as a donation of my time. The last thing I want to do with my volunteer time is sort out these guild issues.

I don't understand what showing up early has to do with anything, last I knew you couldn't camp raid mobs anyway? But ya if you're going to keep this assanine rotation in lets at least get some realistic limits on it so that people still have to mobilize / not fuck up without reprocussions. If they are going to be put on randomized spawn timers even like 3hours to engage dragons, 4hours for CT to engage from spawn would work, Could even have a serverwide emote or some bullshit when they spawn to make it easy for everyone to time. And you get 1 shot if you wipe then it's the next persons turn. Anything, anything but this bullshit.

[Otto]

To the GM Staff of Project 1999:

I understand all of the hard work you've put in for this server to be what it is.

Actually, I don't. And I sincerely doubt ANYONE here can fully understand the amount of work you have put in for well over a year on this project. I would like to think that everyone is grateful for your work, but as we have seen over the past 2+ months, some people don't care.

There are your MacroQuesters, your Dupers, your two-boxers, your exploiters & cheaters. These individuals are specifically going against your wishes and destroying the integrity of the server. You have dealt with many of them, and some have been given second chances. However, some have not been dealt with. This is where the issue arises.

If you would stop sticking your heads into the raid target situation, you could deal with factual evidence of people exploiting, server development, and maybe even have a moment or two of relaxation!

Lets look at how this developed:

1. Raid targets begin as IB downs naggy 2x.
2. Server attack, Trans gets a shot at naggy.
3. Aeolwind pulls myself and Allizia aside to see if we can come to agreement.
4. One is not set in stone, but an idea is layed out.
5. IB moves on to kill vox, clear fear, kill Draco + CT. IB then downs naggy again.
6. Trans moves in to Permafrost for 14 hours.
7. Trans wipes to Lady Vox.
8. We were prepped and ready to go should this be the case, but we decide against it due to lag from DDOS (in good faith, in the spirit of fairness, and against our own self-interest).
9. After 3hours of patiently waiting for them to have a fair attempt, we leave. The ddos lag was too bad.
10. I receive a call at 1ish in the morning saying Trans had just killed a Vox that wasn't AEing. Rather than Tibador logging on his GM and reloading the PL (as has been done with us SEVERAL times), they just kill him.
11. They act as if its a legit Vox kill, and don't petition until afterwards. Whatever, deep breath, moving on:
12. Fear goes down for maintenance.
13. Trans moves into solb for 14 hours.
14. We decide to move in and attempt to be first to engage as the rules imply that we should.
15. Wenai steps in and sets up a server rotation with Aeolwind.

At no point in that pile of nonsense was there ever word to me about a rotation being enforced. I don't know who were the ones QQing and whining to you, but it certainly wasn't IB. It was a one sided complaint that you gave in to. It was only after this stupid rotation that you've implemented in which we started to bring our concerns to you. It seems to me that rather than dealing with the problem properly, you gave into people whining about not getting content handed to them. If you left it to the guilds, it would always be a competition for mobs; first prepared and first to engage.

I don't understand why the rotation was such a priority. We had shown good faith when we dealt with Lady Vox during the DDOS. On the other hand, there has been documented proof presented of Allizia and Tibador exploiting after specifically being warned about the Phinny pull. Then, on top of that, not fixing an obviously broken Vox before they downed her.

These issues have been brought to your attention as of one week ago today. A Whole week, and no repercussions. This is _sad_ when you consider the fact that we now have a 14 day MINIMUM ban hammer over our heads for handling raid targets in the classic manner.

Rather than giving it time to play out and see where it would lead, we've had to watch the GM's waste huge amounts of their time developing a very poor rotation which we are forced to follow for fear of a 14 day ban. This is just causing more ungratefulness for the server, and even more complaints. Please focus on the server, the broken content, and those who are exploiting it rather than the guild drama that is extremely one sided.

[Wrei]

Originally Posted by guineapig [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How many people do you guys have exactly in your two guilds???

Not enough to meet demand? You have got to be kidding me.

Think back to live for a moment and how many players there were online on an average night. How many raid capable guilds did you have on your server?

This isn't about meeting demand. This is about greed. Certain people in both guilds simply want to have the very best items available currently in game in each slot and probably an alt or three with the very best tradable gear in the game.

I don't see why the GM's or the rest of the community should bend over backwards just so a few people can feel like gods among men before the next expansion comes out.

Admit it, some of you are simply rushing. It's a big race to see who's the first to have X amount of hit points or X int or whatever.

If you can already beat all the bosses with 1.5 groups of players than all this gear hoarding is not a need, it's a personal desire and nobody is having it.

Just my opinion.

What you want out of the game will be different then what most of these raiders want. Some play 2 hours a week, others close to 50+hours, some like to make 8 different alts, others like to play 1 and farm etc... By that same analogy some actually like to kill raid bosses for the sake of the kill, the gear you may get, or the competition involved in beating out other players. Doesn't make somebody "greedy", this was how it was designed, non instanced bosses means competition.

For the original topic, I have nothing to input except to say you guys (GM's) dug your own grave the moment you decided to step in on the raiding drama. Washing your hands and letting it become a free market would have been the smarter choice, but now the player base will "expect" rules coming out for each bosses and the whine/hate mails will be coming even more because this will affect not only IB and Trans but the whole server.

[Otto]

Whoever moved my post, it is neither a rant nor a flame. It is a legitimate concern that needs to be addressed.

[Wenai]

The other thread is for discussing the proposed alternative to the rotation. Not a complaint box. Your post contributed nothing to finding an alternative.

[Otto]

I'll just make it a thread of its own then in the main section.

[nilbog]

Whoever moved my post, it is neither a rant nor a flame. It is a legitimate concern that needs to be addressed.

That's your opinion, Otto. Tossing out specific names, guilds, and your thoughts on how GM management should work have no place in a post discussing spawn variance. I think some people, including myself, would consider that a flaming derail.

I didn't move the posts over here, but I was in the process of doing so when I noticed someone had already. Not a single word in your post was spawn or variance... so, you were in the wrong place, bro.

[Otto]

Fair enough. I should've made it a topic of its own to begin with.

My bad, bro.