Asking a favor from the two top guilds on the server

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by finalgrunt [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh yes there was batphone and tracking (even though it really started to get widespread with PoP). But there was no such thing as variance, fte rules etc. which pretty much negates all the above, because it doesn't mean the same involvement is required.
As I said, variance was one solution to the non classic involvement which occurs on this server. No need to talk about hand holding, it's like trying to divert attention from the real issue.

we had batphones in kunark and velious. it equated to some awesome races for Lodzial (Lozdial?) the giant IC turtle. maybe some servers didn't require them.. we'll say for various reasons.

one thing ive noticed (and im not taking a shot at anyone here) from talking with players is that a decent amount of the players on the server were born after 84-85. and i know what your thinking, "But sirken, so the fawk what?" my point is that if you were 14 or younger, you probably didnt have your own phone, and you probably werent allowed to get phone calls from strangers on that "elf game". my point is, batphoning always existed.

as far as the variance, let me try to explain this for the 1000th time (btw, i think i know who the 1000th commander of the nights watch will be.. wait nm wrong thread). the staff and the players have extremely different priorities. for the staff, the variance exists so that no one guild can lock down content. so that they can not manipulate the repop times until ALL the bosses are in the the off peak hours (12am-7am), and then essentially unless you see the mob die, you will not know the repop time. furthermore, no variance guarantees that the top guild stays on top because no other guild will ever kill trakanon or get vp teeth. FURTHERMORE it turns every other guild into a stepping stone for the top guild. Now, SOME of you might say "Sirken, STFU! Some mobs are better than no mobs! wtf is wrong with you stupid GM, what cant you see this?!? you must be teh stupidz!!!1!!!11!!". and to that id say,we dont give a shit about any one particular guild, our interest is whats best for the server, and more over, planning for the future of the server, and taking into consideration guilds or players that may still yet join Project 1999. That being said, taking away the variance makes it impossible for the top guild to be dethroned (without pvp or /guildwar). So im terribly sorry, but we are not willing to just hand over the server to the top guild permanently, so that the smaller guilds can drop inny and maestro twice a month. Now the players dont see it that way, and to be fair, nobody expects them to think that way. Players simply do not think that way, they think about themselves and their guild, possibly some allies, and thats it.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

as far as the variance, let me try to explain this for the 1000th time (btw, i think i know who the 1000th commander of the nights watch will be.. wait nm wrong thread). the staff and the players have extremely different priorities. for the staff, the variance exists so that no one guild can lock down content. so that they can not manipulate the repop times until ALL the bosses are in the the off peak hours (12am-7am), and then essentially unless you see the mob die, you will not know the repop time.

I think both parts of this argument are just empirically false. First, we have just exited a period of about 10 months where TMO got something like 90% of the mobs. Second, how is a guild going to manipulate the repop times when everything dies in minutes? Noble Dojorn has no variance and his repop time is gradually moving more and more into prime time.

That being said, taking away the variance makes it impossible for the top guild to be dethroned (without pvp or /guildwar). So im terribly sorry, but we are not willing to just hand over the server to the top guild permanently, so that the smaller guilds can drop inny and maestro twice a month. Now the players dont see it that way, and to be fair, nobody expects them to think that way. Players simply do not think that way, they think about themselves and their guild, possibly some allies, and thats it.

If this is true, why is it all the small guilds want to remove variance and all the big guilds want to keep it?

Originally Posted by xarzzardorn

Loraen, believe it or not, new people join TMO all the time. You have spent this entire thread shitting on the people who sold you a VP key so that you could see VP or loot weapons with -1 delay or whatever. How would you like it if I told you you're a fucking idiot who starts a 1-man circlejerk every time you post? How many times can you charm a mob and pray until you get tired of it?

No.

[Fountree]

Sirk got it right imo

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by Tenlaar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please note, this is an honest question and not an attempt to troll.

Why does it seem that you actually have some level of contempt for PvE servers in which the player base cooperated with each other in order to compete against the game instead of each other? Every time you post on the subject it comes across as you believing that people who played that way were somehow doing it wrong.

if thats the way i've come across, then i apologize, sincerely i do, because it was not my intention. after 18 months on staff i can not begin to tell you how many threads i've seen like this, and its frustrating to watch guilds continue to try the same thing while expecting different results each time.

and as i said before, theres more than one way to play eq (see: to skin a cat), and that doesnt make 1 way better than another way, it doesnt mean my way is better than yours or vice-versa. but at a certain point somebody has to try something else, or change will never happen.

if you are only specifically referring to my comments about PvE rotation servers, well, we will have to agree to disagree because i do not believe rotation servers had any actual competition. EQ it self is not hard. it just takes time and friends (ie: guildmates), waiting patiently in line for your turn, is simply not competing in my opinion. and as i said in a previous post, anybody whose raid experience is made up solely of being on a rotation server missed out on lots fun, excitement, competition, and imo a true feeling of accomplishment. downing a mob that u know other guilds are racing for and actively trying to kill will always be more rewarding than simply showing up and downing a mob. its like when you go hunting irl, some people go to those guaranteed to get a kill places, where they put u in a tree stand right where they have been safely feeding deer for 2 weeks so that the deer is use to going to that spot every day, and when he shows up you blow his brains out with a .336 rifle. that is simply not hunting, those people should not feel any sense of accomplishment when they down the deer. but the people that dont use bait, but instead use things like footprints in the snow, fresh poop, and removed tree bark to track, locate, and kill the deer, all while making sure the animal is not down wind from them, that warrants a feeling of accomplishment. for extra points in my book, use a bow (i dont use bows because i dont want to risk only wounding an animal, as that would be horrible in my opinion).

now all that being said, i'm simply the CSR GM and these are simply my thoughts/opinions. i do not dictate policy, or anything else, and i especially do not dictate things to Rogean or Nilbog. this is not my server, i do not make the rules. i do however enforce the rules that are put forth, and i also will try to explain the staff's position or reasoning on certain subjects. sometimes i offer my advice or thoughts on a subject in a thread, but thats all they are.

if you think my thoughts/opinions/advice/contributions to this, or any other thread are garbage (and you have every right to think so if thats how u feel), u can feel free to disagree with me, or completely ignore my posts. after 5-6 years of playing/raiding live, 2 years on other EQemu servers, and 3 years on P99, i feel i have seen enough to offer valid and substantial opinions on the subject.

hope that answered your questions/concerns

<3
Sirks

[OMGWTF420]

variance does not help the little guy, anyone who thinks otherwise has been living with their heads in the sand for the last two years or is a member of TMO and does not want things to change.

sure the first few spawns without variance would probably be giant FTE clusterfucks... but eventually the would dust would settle and those left standing would work out an agreement that would be both fair for all involved and more true to the classic spirit of EQ.

classic EQ was about the community working together for the better of their own servers, not roflstomping everyone on your path to more pixels and shitting up people's experience to the point that they either A. quit the server B. join the zerg guild or C. remove themselves from the raid scene and play casually because they realize that poopsocking and 24 hour tracking was not the "classic experience" they came here for

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by nebulus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What's stopping Divinity or any other guild from showing up at raid targets and competing for fte? I bet the top guilds would be more receptive to negotiations if more guilds made their presence felt.

have you read RnF lately? Why would Div, BDA, or any other casual guild be a part of that shit?? BDA assumed that 2nd place role until FE formed and it's a nightmare. Competition consists of having your guild infiltrated with spies, RL pictures pilfered/posted for amusement and constant forum warfare and when you finally grow the guild, try to stick to your guns, play nice best you can, then you get to VP where you are trained into the ground.

It's never about just killing the mob, that's the easy part. The hard part is those 4am batphones, dealing with the constant spin/drama, logging in, pulling, killing through FTE shenanigans, trains, and anything else you can think of. You petition, nothing is done, the proof isn't concrete enough or you're told to fight fire with fire.

The template was laid with IB/TR or DA or whoever, then TMO, and now FE. If you want to see high end content on this server you need to track targets for 96+ hours at a time, be willing to log in at any time of the day, recruit anyone with a pulse to make sure you can pull 30-40 players at those odd times, and be mentally strong enough to take the constant abuse for trying to achieve those goals.

Now you tell me why those guilds should do that. We must not "want" it enough...

[Aaryonar]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

we had batphones in kunark and velious. it equated to some awesome races for Lodzial (Lozdial?) the giant IC turtle. maybe some servers didn't require them.. we'll say for various reasons.

one thing ive noticed (and im not taking a shot at anyone here) from talking with players is that a decent amount of the players on the server were born after 84-85. and i know what your thinking, "But sirken, so the fawk what?" my point is that if you were 14 or younger, you probably didnt have your own phone, and you probably werent allowed to get phone calls from strangers on that "elf game". my point is, batphoning always existed.

as far as the variance, let me try to explain this for the 1000th time (btw, i think i know who the 1000th commander of the nights watch will be.. wait nm wrong thread). the staff and the players have extremely different priorities. for the staff, the variance exists so that no one guild can lock down content. so that they can not manipulate the repop times until ALL the bosses are in the the off peak hours (12am-7am), and then essentially unless you see the mob die, you will not know the repop time. furthermore, no variance guarantees that the top guild stays on top because no other guild will ever kill trakanon or get vp teeth. FURTHERMORE it turns every other guild into a stepping stone for the top guild. Now, SOME of you might say "Sirken, STFU! Some mobs are better than no mobs! wtf is wrong with you stupid GM, what cant you see this?!? you must be teh stupidz!!!1!!!11!!". and to that id say,we dont give a shit about any one particular guild, our interest is whats best for the server, and more over, planning for the future of the server, and taking into consideration guilds or players that may still yet join Project 1999. That being said, taking away the variance makes it impossible for the top guild to be dethroned (without pvp or /guildwar). So im terribly sorry, but we are not willing to just hand over the server to the top guild permanently, so that the smaller guilds can drop inny and maestro twice a month. Now the players dont see it that way, and to be fair, nobody expects them to think that way. Players simply do not think that way, they think about themselves and their guild, possibly some allies, and thats it.

You make an excellent point, Sirken. Variances are a necessary evil. That being said, you completely ignore the ills that come of the small-window variance we have here, and those ills seem to be what people are upset about rather than the variance itself.

If The longest possible window is 4-days, then the chance of an overlap is rather slim. In most cases, it's completely clear which mob we should be camping at and putting tracker priority on. If Trak is in window, camp at poop-ledge. If VS is in window and Trak is in window, stay at poop-ledge and move alts to VS. The max/min nature of players on this server will therefore inevitably be camped at mobs, and inevitably they'll get 90% of what spawns simply by virtue of them having the most trackers/most alts camped in the immediate vicinity. In this case, we're acting on best-odds, not our own priorities as players.

Now, lets say every target's variance was exactly half of their total spawn timer (ex. Nagafen - 7 day spawn, 3.5day variance = 7 day window) then any target could spawn at any time. Trakanon could still be in window even if you killed him 5 minutes ago, and there would be no clear target to monopolize tracking time and alt-camping. FE and TMO would be unable to prioritize low-level dragon/god spawns and would be forced to focus on VP/Trak/VS. In this case, we're forced to focus on our priorities as players, rather than betting on a sure-thing, since there is no sure thing.

Inny would be spawning during legitimate hate clears and going to whatever guild is up there at the time. VS could be PUG'd by whoever is camping basement when he pops while TMO/FE run their alt army over. Gore could maul 500 passerby's moving from rings->KC before a raid guild even had any idea he was up. Who wouldn't want to play on that rule-set rather than this one? Doesn't that sound a bit more like classic to everyone?

The problem is not that variance exists.

The problem is not that players camp out at mobs they want.

The problem is that there's a period of time where we know what our best chance is, and we'd be morons for not taking the opportunity.

If there was no period of time when you had a best chance then I would actually be able to play my main instead of rotating him between camps.

[Sirken]

Originally Posted by pharmakos [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"To fight the Empire is to be infected by its derangement. This is a paradox; whoever defeats a segment of the Empire becomes the Empire; it proliferates like a virus, imposing its form on its enemies. Thereby it becomes its enemies.
-VALIS, Philip K Dick

not sure if srs, but your 100% right i think. whoever dethrones the #1 guild usually ends up doing the same thing that the #1 guild was doing.

Originally Posted by nebulus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What's stopping Divinity or any other guild from showing up at raid targets and competing for fte? I bet the top guilds would be more receptive to negotiations if more guilds made their presence felt.

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

have you read RnF lately? Why would Div, BDA, or any other casual guild be a part of that shit??
Now you tell me why those guilds should do that.

um, because it's realistically the only shot those guilds have at forcing the big guilds into an agreement? not to mention is much easier and requires many less people than you seem to realize. at some point they need to make their presence felt, or they wont be taken seriously

Originally Posted by Aaryonar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You make an excellent point, Sirken. Variances are a necessary evil. That being said, you completely ignore the ills that come of the small-window variance we have here, and those ills seem to be what people are upset about rather than the variance itself.

If The longest possible window is 4-days, then the chance of an overlap is rather slim. In most cases, it's completely clear which mob we should be camping at and putting tracker priority on. If Trak is in window, camp at poop-ledge. If VS is in window and Trak is in window, stay at poop-ledge and move alts to VS. The max/min nature of players on this server will therefore inevitably be camped at mobs, and inevitably they'll get 90% of what spawns simply by virtue of them having the most trackers/most alts camped in the immediate vicinity. In this case, we're acting on best-odds, not our own priorities as players.

Now, lets say every target's window was exactly half of their total spawn timer (ex. Nagafen - 7 day spawn, 3.5day variance = 7 day window) then any target could spawn at any time. Trakanon could still be in window even if you killed him 5 minutes ago, and there would be no clear target to monopolize tracking time and alt-camping. FE and TMO would be unable to prioritize low-level dragon/god spawns and would be forced to focus on VP/Trak/VS. In this case, we're forced to focus on our priorities as players, rather than betting on a sure-thing, since there is no sure thing.

Inny would be spawning during legitimate hate clears and going to whatever guild is up there at the time. VS could be PUG'd by whoever is camping basement when he pops while TMO/FE run their alt army over. Gore could maul 500 passerby's moving from rings->KC before a raid guild even had any idea he was up. Who wouldn't want to play on that rule-set rather than this one? Doesn't that sound a bit more like classic to everyone?

The problem is not that variance exists.

The problem is not that players camp out at mobs they want.

The problem is that there's a period of time where we know what our best chance is, and we'd be morons for not taking the opportunity.

If there was no period of time when you had a best chance then I would actually be able to play my main instead of rotating him between camps.

well said sir. are variances perfect? absolutely not, and i think the staff has admitted this by making changes to the variance and how it works. and we'll continue to make tweaks as the staff feels is needed to ensure a successful and competitive future for the server.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

um, because it's realistically the only shot those have at forcing the big guilds into an agreement?

right. so if you have any sort of morale compass you need to leave that at the door if you want those pixels. I like being honorable, I sleep better at night because I remember there are people behind the pixels. TMO/FE don't seem to have any problem discarding their morality in the pursuit of pixels.

[Aaryonar]

Originally Posted by Sirken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

well said sir. are variances perfect? absolutely not, and i think the staff has admitted this by making changes to the variance and how it works. and we'll continue to make tweaks as the staff feels is needed to ensure a successful and competitive future for the server.

Any thoughts on my specific suggestion? Anyone I've discussed it with has been unable to find a single flaw in the logic. If there is no set time, or even a set window, then no guild has a best chance and every guild has an equal chance - like even moreso than a repop day. Why is this not a consideration on the chopping block?

Also, if there are changes to the variance in the future, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE not let us know any specifics? The most recent change to variance would have literally blown this raid-scene up bigtime if the exact equation for it wasn't detailed in the announcement post. I don't want to know when a dragon might spawn. It would be a nicer surprise.