Suicide Kings Raid Proposal

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

What stops guild <ABC> from not joining the suicide kings list, and then camping the zone and just killing the raid mob while the people on the SK list are busy going through their procedures to determine who will get the shot?

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What stops guild <ABC> from not joining the suicide kings list, and then camping the zone and just killing the raid mob while the people on the SK list are busy going through their procedures to determine who will get the shot?

Point noted.

Mechanically? Nothing as it stands right now.
The idea is to get all raid groups on board so it won't be an issue.

You can always hope that people would opt to not fuck over an entire system the majority of the server has agreed upon, but you just pointed out one case when dipshits could.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

To be honest, I do not favor your system over FFA, but I damn sure favor it over a traditional rotation.

That said, I would like your system to be as refined as well as it can be to make sure we are aware of any potential problems should your system be chosen by the majority.

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by Dumesh Uhl'Belk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To be honest, I do not favor your system over FFA, but I damn sure favor it over a traditional rotation.

That said, I would like your system to be as refined as well as it can be to make sure we are aware of any potential problems should your system be chosen by the majority.

Me too on both cases.

[Jify]

WTB coles notes.

[astarothel]

Coles Notes super short version:

Numbered list of raid groups/guilds
Each is reponsible for tracking mobs and knowing when they're up
When a target pops those groups represented at the target go to the list to see who has first shot.
If they take their chance they go to one spot on the list beneath the lowest group that was there.
If they pass it goes to next on the list present to choose if they want it or not.

[Cyrano]

Couple things to say here:

1) Whoever called that guy a flamer for saying Suicide Kings as a loot system was flawed is missing the point of why the original Suicide Kings was developed in the first place. Later in EQ, and notably in WoW, guilds must clear through various easy targets to get to the "good loot bosses". Guilds that use DKP often had to deal with upgrade attrition due to people hording DKP, thus rather than helping themselves and the guild by taking minor upgrades they would let items rot in order to maintain higher DKP ranking. Suicide Kings offset this by not punishing the lower value members on upgrades, if you're at the bottom of the SC list why not take every minor mainset and offset item right (whereas in DKP you could go into an endless hole)? Once you catch up in gear you can start biding your time to climb up the list.

The reason Suicide Kings is flawed for this server is because we do not have that attrition with raid mobs. We currently have a handful of targets with two tiers; Gods/Dragons on the upper half and Draco/Maestro on the lower. As such, there are a ton of people fighting for a few things whereas Suicide Kings was meant to get people to take items who NEEDED them, not determine who should lay claim when multiple people or groups were arguing over said claim.

2) I have yet to see a PUG legitimately compete for anything on this server. As it stands now if you guys wanted to make a 200 person pug to camp something you could do it, there is no room for that on this form of Suicide Kings.

What this tells me is that people championing the PUG corollary need to realize that your time will come (as has already been stated) when the raiders move to level 60 and go after Kunark and Velious. Do you really think IB and DA will spend their time competing for Maestro/Draco or a level 52 capped Naggy/Vox?

3) This is a rotation whether you want to admit it or not and completely takes out the competition aspect of it unless there is certain collusion leading to the FFA scenario which, by your standards, is against the rules. Going forward with the collusion, if IB or DA can do certain mobs with roughly 20 people and we now have 40+ active members, why shouldn't we be able to splinter off into two guilds? Why is a guild merger considered acceptable but a separation is not?

4) What we need are less rules, not more. This system will lead to more waiting, arguing, and ultimately less killing all in the name of what? Keeping a headache for the GMs? I have a solution for the GMs - STOP LISTENING TO PETITIONS OR COMPLAINTS ABOUT PLAYER RULES - if there isn't blatant training, ksing, or cheating the GMs really shouldn't be involved and those going to pester them should be ignored. If you want to talk about saving GMs time, think of all the finger pointing that will go along with issues of collusion for SC. According this system GMs will check logs and parses... we know the nature of the server so who's going to stop everyone from pointing fingers anytime a boss is up? And then what happens when the GMs become disconnected and stop enforcing it and true collusion runs rampant due to their lack of involvement?

5) The time constraints are ridiculous. Two hours to clear Naggy or Vox? And who is going to be there to police whether or not the guild attempting a target is compromised of the correct percentage of members? What's to stop a guild from simply tagging random pickup people to keep their side of the deal kosher?

Asto you know I like you, but this idea is not a fit for P99. We simply have too many knowledgeable players with a wealth of experience. In my opinion who gets what mob should come down to dedication; not a pseudo-rotation. Currently dedication is measured in time sitting a mob, will that change? I imagine it will, but this doesn't seem to be the answer.

[Wonton]

didn't read because I don't know who you are, sorry. Astarothe? an erudite tradeskill whore? it would be cool if I actually knew you in game rather than having to read these god forsaken forums.

[astarothel]

Going to address a couple of Cyrano's points.

First, SK DKP and SK for a raid rotation written it are quite obviously different. I wanted to offer a way to change the current state of raiding as it stands right now.

The simplest way to deter camping would be to offer it no advantage in a ruleset. Even if the camping were agreed upon to be stopped right now, another guild in three weeks might try it and it simply escalates right back to camping and countercamping.

Right now camping guilds are /randoming when something pops, or making an unofficial rotation. Despite often being that guy with the horseshoe up his ass (See: Sunday) I think there's a better way to handle who gets to go. A dynamic list allows for some degree of prioritization of targets to take place between tiered mobs.

Originally Posted by Cyrano [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As it stands now if you guys wanted to make a 200 person pug to camp something you could do it, there is no room for that on this form of Suicide Kings.

Sure there is. They can wait their week just like every other raid group that wants in does.

Originally Posted by Cyrano [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a rotation whether you want to admit it or not and completely takes out the competition aspect of it unless there is certain collusion leading to the FFA scenario which, by your standards, is against the rules.

Don't see how it gets rid of competition. It's actually the exact same as what is happening right now, except you only need one tracker there to roll rather than one tracker and 14 other semi afk people.

As for collusion and list manipulation it had specifically to do with me being worried groups on the list would create secondary smurf groups in order to get more chances in. "This is totally our raid group we suicided with. What do you mean there's only actually 5 of us in the guild and everyone else is from another raiding group on the list". I will review that section of the proposal and word it better.

You could try and convince everyone to pass to make it go to FFA if you really wanted, except there's not much benefit to actually passing for the last group on the list represented there. I don't really see _that_ as collusion, since it offers no advantage.

Originally Posted by Cyrano [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

if IB or DA can do certain mobs with roughly 20 people and we now have 40+ active members, why shouldn't we be able to splinter off into two guilds?

If crossover between the two wasn't likely I wouldn't really see a problem with it, except that it would be. You'd basically be given twice the number of spots on the list.

In short, if IB split into two separate entities for some reason and pursued separate raiding that would be one thing, but if they split into IB1 and IB2 with overlap in their Suicide Listed raids it wouldn't be kosher.

Originally Posted by Cyrano [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why is a guild merger considered acceptable but a separation is not?

I already explained why separations could be perceived as a problem.
The merger would actually be removing one or more entities from the Suicide List altogether.

Originally Posted by Cyrano [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What we need are less rules, not more. This system will lead to more waiting, arguing, and ultimately less killing

This entire concept started as six lines. It is players seeking nonstop loopholes in everything that made me have to spell out every single minute detail and possibility. They'll seek loopholes in any system used, it won't matter.

Originally Posted by Cyrano [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

think of all the finger pointing that will go along with issues of collusion for SC. According this system GMs will check logs and parses... we know the nature of the server so who's going to stop everyone from pointing fingers anytime a boss is up? And then what happens when the GMs become disconnected and stop enforcing it and true collusion runs rampant due to their lack of involvement?

The GMs' only major role in SK was just like it is now -- to ensure that people who train and interfere are accounted for.

You took far too broad an account for collusion as I mentioned earlier. Their role in List Manipulation would only be to look out for smurf guilds essentially giving away their suicide.

Originally Posted by Cyrano [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The time constraints are ridiculous. Two hours to clear Naggy or Vox?

That includes any time to get there, so for Voxx that's getting to Perma. Two hours for an encounter seems like a lot now, but as I said it is a cushion for a multitude of things. In Sky it would certainly be nice to get in multiple attempts on things for learning purposes. One and outs are going to be very painful with new content, especially if theres as many surprises in store for us as Aeolwind has promised.

Originally Posted by Cyrano [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And who is going to be there to police whether or not the guild attempting a target is compromised of the correct percentage of members? What's to stop a guild from simply tagging random pickup people to keep their side of the deal kosher?

The raid percentages were there as all I could think of to stop any aforementioned smurfing suicides. If anyone has a better idea, feel free to let me know.

Originally Posted by Cyrano [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In my opinion who gets what mob should come down to dedication; not a pseudo-rotation. Currently dedication is measured in time sitting a mob

If camping a mob with 15+ people is dedication, then I won't be dedicated -- I will find another way to enjoy my time on P1999 aside from raiding, either with alts or research and tradeskill implementation.

[nicemace]

personally im for a rotation TYPE system, but more of a ruthless rotation.

-dont need to announce to anyone mob is up, guilds should be responsible for their own tracking... as long as your tracker/whatever has timestamp with trackwindow of mob or actual visual of mob you are good to go.

-1 attempt and 1 attempt only... you fuck up and wipe. too bad. LD's? too bad get better internet. If no one is challenging you for the spawn then sure you can take another shot. but if another guild has 15 - 20 (not yet decided) ready to go and you wipe, they get next shot with a 30 min timer on them (assumed you have recovered from your wipe and rdy to go again)

-as little as possible engage timers, obviously for plane clearing shit, can be altered but 1 hour to get people there, buff up and start fighting for naggy and vox is fair. but pretty much you want it so the guild that is up for their turn HAS to get their ass into gear and be on game, if people slack off... the first guild with 15 - 20 there after the 1 hour from spawn of mob gets first shot.

all of the above means other guilds can still pressure whoever is up on the rot and if they make any mistakes can come in and take the mob.

essentially you need a system that has no room for errors and does not cater to people who stuff around. this is what will create the competition between guilds.

then you just have a basic rot to figure out 'first shots' and first shots only.


lets just say divinity is up on voxx and they get unlucky and voxx spawns at 4am, DA have a tracker and catch the spawn, batphone and people start logging on to move to perma. for the first hour from 4am divinity have first shot, but if they cant muster the force or fail on their first engage DA can swoop in and take the mob.. this means divinity lose their mob and has no affect on DA's position in the rotation.

but of course if voxx spawns in the middle of the day and divinity is on in full force, they can get there, have an hour to engage, buff up and get the kill.. this means they actually get some mobs of sorts.



i sure as hell dont want a basic rot that gives guilds as much time as possible to ensure that they get whatever mob each week. thats just boring and gay. but i also want a system that isnt a complete cluster fuck like FFA (stupid idea people) and gives good chances to other guilds who are on their game to 'steal' mobs from the rotation.

but i dont really care cause i can keep camping forever [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]