Suicide Kings Raid Proposal

[Alawen Everywhere]

Personally, I think this system is terrible. I also think the current situation and anything else we've come up with so far are worse.

Until someone comes up with something brilliant, this is our best proposal. Mad props to Astarothel for all the work he put into this.

[sidgb]

Originally Posted by Aadill [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Guild raid filling out 1/3 of it's ranks = on permanent SK list as a guild, or can apply to become one when necessary.

PuG with 1/3 of it's memebers as a single guild entity = possibly maintained on SK list, or at least with premeditation appears on the list at the appropriate time.

There is a small gap in there but that's what the coalition type is for. If a guild is struggling to maintain 50% of a raid force as it's composition it probably shouldn't be raiding as a guild. If that's the case just recruit a few more members to put themselves under the 1/3 or 10 cap

Actually a lot of guilds use this method of composite raid as a way to increase their numbers. They build a core and invite prospective others to fill out the raid. Thereby showing off their ability to organize and mobilize in an efficient way.

By my thinking they are the biggest threat to more bloated guilds controlling content with sheer numbers.

I think we can agree the pug option was only included because no one truly expects it to be a factor under this system.

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by sidgb [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think we can agree the pug option was only included because no one truly expects it to be a factor under this system.

A pug gets more boned in a FFA system than it does under SK in my eyes.
Why? Because by the time you are all set and ready to pull, another more organized guild or raid group will have killed it fifteen minutes ago. At least under SK you can plan ahead, ensure numbers, raid composition etc and send out a tracker. This is why I called it a predetermined pug raid group.

Do I think a pug raid group would sign up for Suicide Kings, get their waiting week period done, roll in and then sit waiting for Voxx to pop her entire window? Probably not. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be given accommodation and chance to do so under the ruleset.

I loved pugging raids, I just think that they need to be incorporated into the system. "We're a pug we don't have to follow your rules" is a cop out, especially when they have just as much a chance as any other group under the proposal.

[Skope]

Originally Posted by astarothel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A pug gets more boned in a FFA system than it does under SK in my eyes.
Why? Because by the time you are all set and ready to pull, another more organized guild or raid group will have killed it fifteen minutes ago. At least under SK you can plan ahead, ensure numbers, raid composition etc and send out a tracker. This is why I called it a predetermined pug raid group.

Do I think a pug raid group would sign up for Suicide Kings, get their waiting week period done, roll in and then sit waiting for Voxx to pop her entire window? Probably not. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be given accommodation and chance to do so under the ruleset.

I loved pugging raids, I just think that they need to be incorporated into the system. "We're a pug we don't have to follow your rules" is a cop out, especially when they have just as much a chance as any other group under the proposal.

We need to keep in mind that pug raids only came into the scene during kunark, when the old classic stuff wasn't on perma-lockdown and many guilds simply bypassed targets like draco/maestro and sometimes inny/CT. I think pug raids should only be addressed when they actually prove a threat to the current guilds. I know that may sound like somewhat of a harsh statement, but I can't think of a single instance where a pug downed a raid target in the past 3-4 months.

[Aadill]

Addressing issues that we know will arise later is a good way to build a more solid ruleset that doesn't have to be cobbled together on the fly. That's why the original rotation didn't work - no one accounted for more guilds to join in.

[sidgb]

Originally Posted by astarothel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A pug gets more boned in a FFA system than it does under SK in my eyes.
Why? Because by the time you are all set and ready to pull, another more organized guild or raid group will have killed it fifteen minutes ago. At least under SK you can plan ahead, ensure numbers, raid composition etc and send out a tracker. This is why I called it a predetermined pug raid group.

Do I think a pug raid group would sign up for Suicide Kings, get their waiting week period done, roll in and then sit waiting for Voxx to pop her entire window? Probably not. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be given accommodation and chance to do so under the ruleset.

I loved pugging raids, I just think that they need to be incorporated into the system. "We're a pug we don't have to follow your rules" is a cop out, especially when they have just as much a chance as any other group under the proposal.

Oh, I agree completely.

I am just trying to say it's a non-threatening option in most people's minds at this point that would not present an obstacle to agreement to this plan. But, there are a lot of people being excluded between alliance raid and pug raid that are legitimate threats to availability of content. Some guilds want to raid with potential recruits, not alliances. That is unless they are trying to steal members of other guilds which opens up a whole new source of fodder for the flame boards.

Anyway, time will tell I suppose.

How would a PuG raid leader get recognized and gain access to the closed forum?

[sidgb]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We need to keep in mind that pug raids only came into the scene during kunark, when the old classic stuff wasn't on perma-lockdown and many guilds simply bypassed targets like draco/maestro and sometimes inny/CT. I think pug raids should only be addressed when they actually prove a threat to the current guilds. I know that may sound like somewhat of a harsh statement, but I can't think of a single instance where a pug downed a raid target in the past 3-4 months.

You exclude anyone from fair participation in your ruleset you give them the right to operate outside it in every way.

[Gandite]

Originally Posted by Alawen Everywhere [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Personally, I think this system is terrible. I also think the current situation and anything else we've come up with so far are worse.

Until someone comes up with something brilliant, this is our best proposal. Mad props to Astarothel for all the work he put into this.

There isn't anything brilliant to come up with. Any solution will ultimately involve collusion hidden behind the thin veil of cooperation. Collusion, as game theory tells us(lol pun), works until someone cheats. Someone will in fact most certainly cheat at some point leading to a collapse and an even greater shitfest than what we have now.

Live alleviated this problem by putting content into tiers and putting up roadblocks for guilds. This spread the hardcore endgame playerbase across content like butter on hot bread. It worked fairly well but there has always been and will always be fighting amongst guilds and players. I'm surprised at how venomous it is on this server and its forums, but that is partly because we're all allowed to essentially run fucking wild with little to no worry of being punished.

All that nonsense said this suicide kings shit is rubbish.

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by Alawen Everywhere [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Personally, I think this system is terrible. I also think the current situation and anything else we've come up with so far are worse.

Until someone comes up with something brilliant, this is our best proposal.

Couple things I would like to say on that note.

Suicide Kings is not perfect, there are definitely areas where it is weaker than others. I will be the first to admit that.

Suicide Kings is not my ideal choice for raiding either. I am relatively competitive, take pride in my in game achievements, and would prefer a more FFA system than that which I have proposed.

That being said, I think that at this juncture in time Suicide Kings is feasible where others like a FFA or straight rotation would not be.

We would all love to see Kunark. The GMs would love to work on Kunark.

FFA at this juncture would be a mess that would require heavy GM intervention initially, and who knows how long it would be before things settled down between accusations at other guilds, claims of GM favoritism or fallibility, and the like. The current raiding environment and even forums are poisoned -- hopping straight into a FFA situation will be a snakepit. Who knows how long Kunark would be if they need to spend that much time babysitting us.

An enforced rotation would be a whole other clusterfuck of rules that will have to be perpetually reviewed to ensure all raid groups have followed them., in addition to any GM required situations.

Unlike either of the other two situations I believe strongly Suicide Kings *CAN* work where the others would ultimately fail and need more GM involvement, whether it is having to forever check first to engage, or ensure a guild is actually moving in on their rotation target.

There is the distinct possibility that after things calm down Suicide Kings could transition to a different system with fewer rules, or open it up to be more FFA. The reality is that sort of thing can only happen when the server tones down the present levels of hatred and dickery, and as it stands right now if I have to choose between a FFA clusterfuck, continued camping or Suicide Kings I will take Suicide Kings every time.

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by Gandite [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All that nonsense said this suicide kings shit is rubbish.

Thanks for your particularly relevant and progressive input as to why this Suicide Kings shit is rubbish!

As for tiers being the way to go, Suicide Kings favours the route of target prioritization. This is what opens up raid content to other raid groups. If a raid group wants to ensure their shot at Voxx it will mean they will potentially give up one or more targets along the way.