stop bringing up the founding fathers in gun arguments

[Tarathiel]

how come black people couldnt own guns back then? was thomas jefferson afraid his slaves might revolt against him?

[Hitchens]

Originally Posted by Rikimeru [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

banning guns doesnt solve anything. your just trading shootings for other forms of murder/violent crimes(and even completely banning guns will not stop gun violence, because gun bans dont effect criminals). instead of school shootings we will have school bombings(ya that sounds a lot better!!!) radical gun control is the equivalent of treating the symptoms of an illness and ignoring the illness itself. that gets you nowhere.

No one said anything about banning guns. Australia banned certain types and hasn't had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.

This isn't an all or nothing discussion unless you want it to be.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Hitchens [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't see any Fourth Reich rising in Australia after they banned automatic weapons in 1996.

I don't think concern about a possible future trumps concern about present day issues. I understand some do, and that's fine. I just don't see it that way.

inb4movetoaustralia

I'm not defending automatic weaponry. Like I said, the specifics are open for discussion. I'm speaking in generalities -- the right to bear arms. The right to own a gun. I'm not breaking down what types of guns, in particular. That's a different debate.

But aside from that, it's not really evidence of anything that one country has managed to avoid catastrophic tyranny for 16 years without an armed populace. Tyranny isn't an inevitability with an unarmed populace, and certainly not within a timeframe of a decade or two. It's merely a possibility, which is too much for some.

I'd also quibble with the notion that this is a matter of possible future issues vs. present day issues. Many people would disagree that there is an issue in America. Committing a violent act with a gun is illegal. Violators are prosecuted. Law abiding citizens are free to own firearms. To many, that is perfectly acceptable and the fact that murder rates are higher in the United States is an unfortunate side effect of greater degrees of liberty. Many Americans would see it as a bigger issue that citizens of other countries are legally incapable of defending themselves -- whether from crime or government.

[Hitchens]

@Daldoma,

I would not advocate for a blanket gun ban. I just don't think certain guns should be in the hands of civilians merely for the sake of protection against a tyrannical government when the guns in the hands of civilians wouldn't really stop a tyrannical government.

This doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[Happyfeet]

Originally Posted by EvilMallet [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You fucking retard.

The people at large wanted to revolt because they didn't want to pay taxes for a war that had no part of (The Seven Years War, maybe you've heard of it?). They wanted people to have guns to increase the power of their militias, because that pretty much was the only military force we had. We don't have a militia now. We have military. You don't need guns , unless you plan on fighting our own soldiers, in which case:

Who the fuck is going to save us from criminals with guns? You think we should disarm every citizen? GTFO.
Hello 911, there's someone in my house with a gun. BRT in 6 minutes! Oh, too late.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Hitchens [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

@Daldoma,

I would not advocate for a blanket gun ban. I just don't think certain guns should be in the hands of civilians merely for the sake of protection against a tyrannical government when the guns in the hands of civilians wouldn't really stop a tyrannical government.

This doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Well that's very different, and doesn't put you at odds with the Founding Fathers. They supported the right to bear arms -- not the right to own an arsenal of AK-47s.

I believe a person has a fundamental right to self defense. Sufficient weaponry to protect oneself is a necessary extension of such a right.

But where the bounds of 'sufficient weaponry' end is a matter of legitimate debate. Obviously, things like grenades and mines do not qualify. Neither should automatic weaponry. I think extended magazines should absolutely be on the table for a possible ban. You have a right to defend yourself, not a right to be Rambo.

[Hitchens]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well that's very different, and doesn't put you at odds with the Founding Fathers. They supported the right to bear arms -- not the right to own an arsenal of AK-47s.

I believe a person has a fundamental right to self defense. Sufficient weaponry to protect oneself is a necessary extension of such a right.

But where the bounds of 'sufficient weaponry' end is a matter of legitimate debate. Obviously, things like grenades and mines do not qualify. Neither should automatic weaponry. I think extended magazines should absolutely be on the table for a possible ban. You have a right to defend yourself, not a right to be Rambo.

So I don't have to move to Australia after all?

Sweet!

[Rikimeru]

Originally Posted by Hitchens [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No one said anything about banning guns. Australia banned certain types and hasn't had a mass shooting since Port Arthur.

This isn't an all or nothing discussion unless you want it to be.

there were mass shootings in the united states before there were self loading firearms, so i dont see how the ban of any semi automatic weapon will help. hell the first documented school shooting in the united states happened in 1764 where a teacher and 10 students were shot to death(3 students survived).

[patriot1776]

any one for the banning of any gun is either a big fat vagina, communist, or tyrant

[patriot1776]

the or is not mutually exclusive (xor) see: our pal barry