Why Classic EQ is still the best online RPG (and how P1999 could make it even better)

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Noudess [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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And what's funny, is many people didn't realize that all the things that made Norrath like a real world - death, travel, trade skills requiring real effort, all the things they kept complaining about, and getting changed, were the very reasons classic EQ was and is special. It gives us a challenge. It gives us reward. it gives us a realistic environment. We skill up as we DO things. The world was logical, despite being magical. And yet, the player base and greedy Sony corrupted it for money. And now, what is left? A pile of junk over on live.
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(targeted an area of your post that I want to address in my reply)

I agree with a lot of your points. I don't believe you're deserving of flames. So you can relax because at least I won't troll you. But I'll give you some of my feedback.

(about the quote) It's something that has often crossed my mind. Realism to me just means challenge. It means complexity. It doesn't mean being dragged behind a speeding car on a rope on a gravel road with nothing to protect me. Pain isn't what I like, it's the complexity inherent in realism that I like. But even though the "realism" to some extent makes classic EQ engaging, I think that this is not true for everyone. I think some people are turned off and chased away by it. In fact, it might be that most people are not friendly to realism in their game. You have to consider that while what you say is right - that this makes classic EQ somewhat special - you must also admit that what you say is not right for everyone or even most people. NOTE: I'm playing Wurm Online off and on lately and it's a good example of a game that retains some level of realism. It's not the same as classic EQ, ofc; it's a sandbox game. But it will often not go out of its way to save you from your ignorance. And it has lots of little details you have to look out for. I like that. Keeps me on my toes. Don't feel babied.

But don't mistake my appreciation for "realism" as meaning that I like pain or that I like broken mechanics. Many things in classic EQ don't work well and don't make the mistake of thinking I worship at its altar.

MQing - I agree.
Recharging - I agree.
Twinking - Unsure, but I agree that twinking kills the fun of leveling up.
PLing - Unsure, but I agree that it's anti-climactic and can be disruptive.

Not sure if it matters whether the levels went past 60 or not. However, I think that a lateral type of advancement might have been better than the linear progression we got. What I mean by this is that linear progression increases -all- of your power. Whereas, lateral progression is in a whole new area and the advancement might not benefit you in other areas. For example, adding 5 levels to a level-based game is an example of linear progression. Adding a chessboard game to a level-based RPG is an example of lateral progression. The chess game is a whole different advancement and doesn't make your penis bigger. Another example of later progression might be to add intelligent NPCs that you can talk to about things in the world. All they do is talk about lore. You get "social points" for talking about things. The social points don't carry over to other things, though. They don't give you more hitpoints or make your AC higher or so on.

I agree that game companies have corrupted the RPG concept somewhat. But you have to account for the mainstreaming of RPGs to gain more consumers. This isn't a complete rejection of old RPGs, it's just the adoption of a more liberal doctrine to make more money. There're still people making old-style RPGs that're not stripped down or streamlined and there're still many people playing pen & paper RPGs and also playing older RPGs on their computer. Many people still play MUDs. You'd be right if "corrupting RPGs" prevented this. Where you're right is that the mainstream is no longer making those kinds of RPGs many of us grew up with.

I have to say I mostly agree with you, especially in spirit.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Sadre Spinegnawer [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I like the OP. I would only add that frustration and not getting what you want when you want is part of the classic experience. All hail corpse runs.

the game declines, in general, as difficulties are nerfed from the dev side. The game self-declines, as the economy gets mudflated and every alt is heavily twinked.

instancing and world channels. two very diff things. both killed the experience big time, imo. Sometimes big things, sometimes little things.

you have to keep it hard.

I don't fully agree with your thinking here. EQ is designed as a group-game. This means when you log on you're expected to group if you want to reach your potential. If the population is low then this severely limits your ability to form groups and to meet this potential. Without global chat, the ability to form groups plummets further. Eventually, the built-in mechanics of EQ become self-destructive because they were not created to be dynamic. The game does not change itself based on population without direct developer intervention.

With a large population, I agree that global chat is unnecessary and it kills the "culturing" that might occur; many smaller communities rather than one big one. But if it's low, I don't agree.

I don't like instancing either.

I guess it comes down to ... if you're in a tavern and there's a bunch of people in there, are you going to know all their names or are you going to be texting on your android or playing a game on it? Do you use the iphone or the ipad or the (gadget) so much that you fail to interact with the world around you? There comes a point where global chat and technology and all these cheap answers to things detract from the experience by removing you from it. It's like being in the tavern but not smelling the air or hearing the shouts or feeling the bottle in your hands. Some people use their tech so much that they may as well be in another world.

This is exactly why in some games I will just sit and do nothing and watch the players pass by. I'll go over to the (place to "waste" time) and pay attention and hail the non-players. Get off the leveling train for a while. Because sometimes players rush so much to level that the rush becomes a form of detachment. The developers get so caught up in this level rush that they forget to make a compelling intricate world. It's like you step off the leveling train and actually open your eyes and start to see empty-faced non-players and uninteresting environments. Just like somebody who's long been stuck on their ipad, you see for the first time. This is what has led me to focus on the environment and non-essentials more and less on the level rush. Not to say that I don't like to level in games, I do! But I try not to be blind. I try to open my eyes more to take it all in.

More of us need to open our eyes to give RPG worlds the attention they deserve and need. And similarly, the next time you're in the bar, put the ipad/iphone/gadget in your pocket and look around; take it in. Maybe we can all start to make this a habit. And maybe it can grow to be a good and healthy habit.

[skorge]

Not sure if this has been said yet (made it to page 5)...on p99 red they decided to take matters in their own hands on some issues. Items are not rechargeable on red, they also removed those red wands from dropping and adjusted other things on red...if they can do this on red, why not blue?

I agree with some of the TS points...items need to not be rechargeable on blue, and the whole PLing thing (hoggin a zone) needs to be fixed. I dont care about twinking and mq'ing...

[Smilkers]

some really good posts in this thread.

[vageta31]

I'd like to know what retarded servers some of you guys were playing on back in the day that claim power leveling, MQ, twinking, etc.. didn't exist in classic. I played on Rathe and I(and many others) were doing all of this stuff long before Kunark was released. I played a Druid to 50, quad kiting the watchmen in steamfont I might add, and the first thing I did was camp a ton of items to give to my newbie SK. Gave him a Rubi BP, Mith 2h, TBB, etc.. months and months before we even knew about Kunark. MQ was very popular for doing Sol Ro quests and tons of people were power leveling back in the day as well. Some of the methods have been refined over the years, but using mem blur and damage shields were all very well known.

I'm not saying I was some sort of Elite player, I'm saying that a ton of people were doing it including myself and friends so it wasn't as unknown as some are claming. If you weren't privy to that information at the time then that's fine, but you can't make a blanket statement that since you weren't aware of it then it didn't happen. The reason people don't want devs to fix any of this is because it existed on live. Whether or not it was intended is a completely moot point as the entire goal of this server is to "recreate classic everquest", the devs intent back in the day matters not because they never got around to fixing it till later.

We've had this same discussion countless times over hybrid exp. "But the devs eventually admitted that hybrid penalties were harsh and so they removed them, so why shouldn't we just change it now because it's going to happen eventually?"

Answer: Because it's not classic.

If the devs have decided not to change hybrid penalties yet, even though they know it eventually does get changed, then why would they fix any of the issues being brought up that weren't fixed until post Velious? Doing so opens up a huge can of worms and it's much easier to leave things be.

Most people coming here are doing it for nostalgic purposes. If you start changing a bunch of things that you think should be fixed, then a lot of people won't be happy as it won't be the EQ they remember. Twinking and PLing is fun for a lot of people, so by trying to take it out you're essentially being selfish and ruining others' fun in order to get what you want.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. You start changing a bunch of things based on what "you" believe to be the developers original intent and what you end up with won't be classic everquest, but instead some sort of Frankenstein game that no one can recognize anymore. It's best to leave things as-is, and if you don't like it then try another server.

[Randarn]

Originally Posted by quido [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the fuk u just say 2 me?

Well said Jeremy. Hilarous as always. I am even laughing now..minutes later. Stupid but effective.

-Trys