Monk Epic Fist... is it REALLY that good?

[Treats]

Originally Posted by Nordenwatch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For example: 15/25 (ac) or 17/28 (sos) is a .6 ratio and a .607 ratio respectively, while the epic fist is a .56 ratio. (9/16) And since the delay itself is larger, the reduction of time between swings is larger per haste percentage point. 1% of haste for a 9/16 wep is 0.08 delay off, while for a AC its 0.125 delay off.

This is not true. Think about what you are saying:

A 100 delay weapon with 100% haste would drop the delay by 5 seconds.

A 10 delay weapon with 100% haste would drop the delay by .5 seconds.

So because the 100 delay weapon dropped 4.5 seconds more then the 10 delay weapon it is better? No.

100/100 Weapon
No Haste
10 Damage Bonus
6 Swings per minute
210 * 6 = 1260 DPM

100/100 Weapon
100% Haste
10 Damage bonus
12 Swings per minute
210 * 12 = 2520 DPM

10/10 Weapon
No Haste
10 Damage Bonus
60 Swings per minute
30 * 60 = 1800 DPM

10/10 Weapon
100% Haste
10 Damage Bonus
120 Swings per minute
30 * 120 = 3600 DPM

You can see here the reduction time does not matter. The 100 delay weapon dropped by 4.5 seconds and the 10 delay weapon dropped by .5 seconds yet both of their DPM's have the same increase (doubled).

Here is what Copeland's shows:

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Wu's Tranquil Fist Primary (16/22)
1550 DPM
48 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Epic Fist Primary (9/16)
1516 DPM
66 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Adamantite Club Primary (15/25)
1308 DPM
44.24 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Stave of Shielding Primary (17/28)
1268 DPM
37.71 Swings per minute

[webrunner5]

Pretty much settles that debate.

[Orruar]

Treats, it would appear that you believe all weapons have the same damage bonus. Is that based on anything? I thought weapons had a damage bonus that scaled with delay, meaning the AC would have a higher damage bonus than the ultra fast monk fist.

And based on the numbers you posted, it would appear the monk fist actually has more damage bonus than the ada club, and nearly equal db to the SoS. That doesn't seem right at all.

[Orruar]

Also in the numbers you posted, the swings per minute are not in proportion to the weapon delays. If the monk fist swings per minute is correct, then the ada club should be 39.6.

[Treats]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also in the numbers you posted, the swings per minute are not in proportion to the weapon delays. If the monk fist swings per minute is correct, then the ada club should be 39.6.

The Copeland's numbers have Double Attack % factored in.

Epic fist is better than anything but Wu's Tranquil Fist because of the delay and damage bonus even though it has a worse ratio.

There is a point where a slower weapon with a better ratio will overtake Epic Fist but the only item to my knowledge is the Wu's Fist until Velious.

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The Copeland's numbers have Double Attack % factored in.

Epic fist is better than anything but Wu's Tranquil Fist because of the delay and damage bonus even though it has a worse ratio.

There is a point where a slower weapon with a better ratio will overtake Epic Fist but the only item to my knowledge is the Wu's Fist until Velious.

Double attack % isn't going to change with fist vs 1hb, so the proportions should still hold.

[Ele]

Originally Posted by Orruar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Treats, it would appear that you believe all weapons have the same damage bonus. Is that based on anything? I thought weapons had a damage bonus that scaled with delay, meaning the AC would have a higher damage bonus than the ultra fast monk fist.

And based on the numbers you posted, it would appear the monk fist actually has more damage bonus than the ada club, and nearly equal db to the SoS. That doesn't seem right at all.

Two-Handed weapons consider delay as part of the damage bonus, not One-Handed weapons.

[Nordenwatch]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is not true. Think about what you are saying:

A 100 delay weapon with 100% haste would drop the delay by 5 seconds.

A 10 delay weapon with 100% haste would drop the delay by .5 seconds.

So because the 100 delay weapon dropped 4.5 seconds more then the 10 delay weapon it is better? No.

100/100 Weapon
No Haste
10 Damage Bonus
6 Swings per minute
210 * 6 = 1260 DPM

100/100 Weapon
100% Haste
10 Damage bonus
12 Swings per minute
210 * 12 = 2520 DPM

10/10 Weapon
No Haste
10 Damage Bonus
60 Swings per minute
30 * 60 = 1800 DPM

10/10 Weapon
100% Haste
10 Damage Bonus
120 Swings per minute
30 * 120 = 3600 DPM

You can see here the reduction time does not matter. The 100 delay weapon dropped by 4.5 seconds and the 10 delay weapon dropped by .5 seconds yet both of their DPM's have the same increase (doubled).

Here is what Copeland's shows:

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Wu's Tranquil Fist Primary (16/22)
1550 DPM
48 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Epic Fist Primary (9/16)
1516 DPM
66 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Adamantite Club Primary (15/25)
1308 DPM
44.24 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Stave of Shielding Primary (17/28)
1268 DPM
37.71 Swings per minute

Ah, I see. I guess the question becomes not really a matter of haste but if AC/SoS is better than fist/AC or fist/SoS, because of the delay difference I'd like to believe that if the mob was significantly lower level (low blue, or LB), AC/SOS would be better because you'd be landing more of the hits.

I think the fist shines in that since its extremely fast it doesn't suffer as much from missed hits.

I'm still planning on running some tests, if the difference between ac/sos and fist/ac isn't HUGE i think while soloing ac/sos has en edge, it procs much more often while in the primary and the procs are very helpful.

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by Nordenwatch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ah, I see. I guess the question becomes not really a matter of haste but if AC/SoS is better than fist/AC or fist/SoS, because of the delay difference I'd like to believe that if the mob was significantly lower level (low blue, or LB), AC/SOS would be better because you'd be landing more of the hits.

I think the fist shines in that since its extremely fast it doesn't suffer as much from missed hits.

I'm still planning on running some tests, if the difference between ac/sos and fist/ac isn't HUGE i think while soloing ac/sos has en edge, it procs much more often while in the primary and the procs are very helpful.

Once again, no. All other things being equal, the hit ratio will be the same with a fist as with a slower weapon. The fist may lose less damage from a miss, but that will be exactly offset by the fact you have more misses due to more swings. The only important factors to consider are the delay and damage bonus. Since apparently damage bonus is constant over all delays with a 1h, the fist should be better in most cases.

The only real question to consider is whether the damage from damage bonus overcomes the improved ratio on ada club. When you have very high atk, such as with avatar, that may tip it towards the ada club, since more of your damage is coming from the weapon damage and less from the damage bonus. But maybe not. Would need to parse to tell.

[Visual]

I sold my Tstaff when i got my epic and it was honestly a poor decision. fists & sos seem to do the same if not less dmg, no stun/dd, and you get riposted alot more in the event u r tanking.