The Plight of the Shadow Knight

[Tallenn]

Originally Posted by President [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Uh warriors take hits much better than SK's and Pallys.

I keep hearing that, but so far, I've never heard of any mechanic that actually makes it true. I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm honestly curious about exactly HOW warriors are able to take more damage than Paladins and SKs.

Do they have a different mitigation table?
Do they have access to gear with much better AC?
Do they have a higher mitigation cap?

I've already mentioned defensive disc, but aside from that (it's got a recast delay, and it's only a short term -usually 1 fight- discipline) what specific game mechanic(s) make warriors better?

I generally played a healer class in live- druid, then cleric- and I noticed a considerable difference in ability to hold agro, but almost no difference in ability to take damage. This was not just classic, but all the way through LDoN. Now the fact is, tanks always have been, and probably always will be, under-represented, so you take whoever you can get for your group, but when there's a choice, most people will choose the SK, then the Pal, then the War for an XP group.

All I have to go by is the perception, based on personal experience. If you have real game data to refute that perception, some real in-game mechanic that really does help warriors take damage better than knights, then I honestly, truly would like to hear it, and see the evidence.

[Wolrok]

If I remember correctly, warriors have higher defensive skill caps (which gives slightly higher mitigation) and gets more HP from stamina than paladins or shadowknights. I believe they also have passive damage reduction (5% less damage?).

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if on P1999, that a shadowknight or paladin ends up main tanking some of the Kunark/Velious raids.

Player skill is quite a bit different now than it was back when those expansions were first released.

[Nedala]

At least the ToV armor for warriors is way better and has a good amound more AC than the paladin ToV armor.

[Kainzo]

Originally Posted by Wolrok [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If I remember correctly, warriors have higher defensive skill caps (which gives slightly higher mitigation) and gets more HP from stamina than paladins or shadowknights. I believe they also have passive damage reduction (5% less damage?).

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if on P1999, that a shadowknight or paladin ends up main tanking some of the Kunark/Velious raids.

Player skill is quite a bit different now than it was back when those expansions were first released.

Player skill is about the same, there are just more players in the MMO genre.

[Tallenn]

Velious quest armors seem to be about 18-26% more AC for warriors. Ok, I'll buy that. Of course, that's Velious, so a ways off.

Is there a soft cap for AC that is easily reached by raid-geared tanks in Classic, Kunark, or Velious? Honestly, I don't know, that's why I'm asking. I swear I remember hearing folks talking about something like that (well seeing actually- in chat [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.])

As for the other stuff: more HPs from stamina, higher defensive skill caps, passive damage reduction- there MUST be somewhere that spells all of these things out, with parses to back them up, right? Steel Warrior maybe? I've honestly not played a melee very much at all, so I never really got into all those discussions back in the day. I was more interested in discussions about reducing mana use, and figuring mana pools and meditation regen rates, and so forth. Surely there must be folks on this server that have played the melee meta-game in live that can point us to all of that data?

[JayDee]

Originally Posted by Kainzo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Player skill is about the same, there are just more players in the MMO genre.

Nah people who play now are generally more skilled.

Although I fail to see how that affects how an sk will tank raids.

[Kainzo]

Originally Posted by JayDee [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah people who play now are generally more skilled.

Although I fail to see how that affects how an sk will tank raids.

People are people... I don't believe the average IQ has risen that drastically in the last 10 years, but some of the "unknown" information has been released, however information does not always equate "skill". If anything, I hate to say it, but I think its lowered [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's no hard evidence either way, but if you take any of the OOC/auction spams as any kind of indication I would lean toward less IQ overall.

[Dantes]

Yeah but the stat-mongering has increased. People know more now than they did in 1999 about the game mechanics and how they work. The 1999 audience had no clue, other than what they read on spoiler sites.

[hrafn]

http://www.therunes.net/guide_ac.html

[President]

Tallenn,
As posted above in a link, Warriors get more use out of their AC than other classes. End game gear for warriors also has more AC than it does for SK's/Pally's.

I don't know the whole break down, but there are other things that contribute also. (Someone stated higher defensive skill cap, and more base hp?).

One thing I do remember though from leveling up on this server is that healers would always comment on how much easier it was if I was taking the hits versus a paladin or shadowknight that was in the group pulling aggro. This could have been gear related, but I don't think I had that stellar of gear.

Also, I currently use an Amygndalin Tendril or whatever + a yak. When we are in fear/hate, an SK literally has to torch his mana to keep it on him instead of me, and generally has a hard time even doing this except for he generally can get in 2-3 spells before the mob gets to the raid. If I had two Yak's I'm sure it would be even more difficult. This also brings the point that SK/Pally is reliant on his mana to hold aggro, where as a warrior is only reliant on DPS/Procs which are relatively steady and never ending.