Bob's Perfect World- A wall of text regarding the raid scene on P99

[Xatava]

Originally Posted by Mcbard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's not how EQ works! Preparation + time investment = rewards. In some situations skill will determine it, but pre-instancing(when did that start anyway, LDoN?) whoever knows boss timers and is the most prepared is most likely going to reap the rewards of EQ raiding.

Do you honestly believe what you're typing?. You think Ivandyr's Hoop races are the true classic experience and not raid calendars? What server did you play on and in what guild where this was the standard procedure?

[citizen1080]

Originally Posted by Nivar Quartz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is there a grievance for forum abuse?

I left my Union Bible at work, I'll check tomorrow for you.

[citizen1080]

The Trade Fed + Me for Raid counsel. We too busy selling the loot to care about who is actually killing the mobs. We are impartial, fair, trustworthy and will charge you a mere 10% of all raid loot for our trouble [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Taminy]

Originally Posted by Mcbard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Knowing boss timers is very classic sir! I still remember the threads on my guilds old forums where we all kept them updated. The thing there was that knowing the timers was a bigger advantage than it is here, because there weren't as many hardcore people hellbent on getting every mob 24/7 like we all are here. There we mainly kept track of the hardest mobs, and if we felt like doing anything else we just checked to see if they were up and if so killed them. =p

Missed my point. No variance = everyone knows timers = more competition.

[Mcbard]

Originally Posted by Xatava [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do you honestly believe what you're typing?. You think Ivandyr's Hoop races are the true classic experience and not raid calendars? What server did you play on and in what guild where this was the standard procedure?

No, Ivandyr's Hoops need nerfed we all know that. That's really just one example that you singled out though so I'll go ahead and list some more an answer them.

In regards to preperation:
The best guild had resist gears sets: check
The best guild knew when important mobs spawned: check
The best guild had strategies to mobilize for these spawns: check
The best guild had people dedicated to playing the game more and being ready to drop what they were doing to kill dragons: check
The best guild overall cared and spent more time worrying about these dragons: check

Now in regards to how raids went down..
There was a rotation: Hahahahaha, no.
There was a TON of training: check
There was a lot of nefarious raid strategies used: check (LET THEM WEAKEN IT)
There was massive cockblocking for content, especially over keyed zones: check
There were often the one or 2 top guilds trying to kill mobs in the zone at the same time, and fighting tooth and nail over stuff: check

I played on Tarew-Marr btw! And I was in a lot of guilds. Everything I just described was in the past. It's already far more carebear on this server than it ever was on mine!

[Mcbard]

Originally Posted by Taminy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Missed my point. No variance = everyone knows timers = more competition.

I'm not even sure what your point was or that you had one.. I never read your post/wasn't talking to you. :P I was just saying that what I said was classic since you said it wasn't. What are you trying to say? That you don't like variance because it isn't classic? I agree! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Taminy]

Originally Posted by Mcbard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not even sure what your point was or that you had one.. I never read your post/wasn't talking to you. :P I was just saying that what I said was classic since you said it wasn't. What are you trying to say? That you don't like variance because it isn't classic? I agree! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then why did you quote me?

Yes I don't like variance because it's not classic. And no you misinterpreted what I said, I never meant to say that guilds did not know the actual ToD on live. Of course they did. Knowing ToD on p1999 is fairly irrelevant though, at least for Trak. TMO and TR waiting on the ledge? Ok he's in window. If a third guild wanted to poopsock they easily could just by seeing you're there [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] But again on live Trak wasn't poopsocked. He was either on a rotation or guilds fought over him with training and other nonsense.

[Mcbard]

Originally Posted by Taminy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Then why did you quote me?

Yes I don't like variance because it's not classic. And no you misinterpreted what I said, I never meant to say that guilds did not know the actual ToD on live. Of course they did. Knowing ToD on p1999 is fairly irrelevant though, at least for Trak. TMO and TR waiting on the ledge? Ok he's in window. If a third guild wanted to poopsock they easily could just by seeing you're there [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What? I replied to Xant... then you quoted me and said "Not classic Though".. and then I quoted you and said basically "ya it is!" and then you told me I missed your point about how variance wasn't classic (which my post had nothing to do with nor had you previously mentioned in this chain of events) to which I replied telling you I have no idea what your point is, AND HERE WE ARE. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now you're talking about somebody seeing that Trak's in Window. I don't know what's going on here, I'm going to go play LoL. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Frieza_Prexus]

I played on Prexus which had a complex and well-enforced rotation system, so I'd like to think I speak from a reasonably informed position.

Rotations are sustainable only between guilds. Prexus' rotations came down because a council enforced them, they grew to absurd size (15+ guilds on VS), and people finally had enough. If rotations of any type were used here, they'd have to be fairly limited in scope and would likely only be agreements between TR & TMO. They'd probably be something like 5 hours of uncontested rights to that mob by the other guild. Divinity, BDA, VD, etc., not being part of the agreement, could snipe the mob which must be defended by TR or TMO. The only way a 3rd (or 4th) guild could get into the agreement would be to snipe enough kills from both guilds so that they'd acquiesce. Given this server's history, I find it unlikely that a 3rd guild could be that much of a thorn rendering this tangent academic.

Whenever I hear people bring up rotations here they seem to always assume that it's all or nothing. That the GM's must be involved, that just anyone can apply, and that all mobs must be on it. A rotation is simply one tool used to reduce (not eliminate) certain aspects of competition to give the human beings behind the keyboard breathing room.

I strongly doubt we'll have a rotation for anything other than VP (see below), and we probably shouldn't. Despite TR/TMO clashes, most of the current content is actually handled reasonably well.

Regarding VP, this will depend largely upon how the variance is implemented inside the zone. I personally dread the idea that a full 7 day 48 hour variance will be in effect in VP. The zone is difficult to get into and out of. Characters will be forced to camp inside the zone for weeks at a time at all hours of the day 24/7. That will lead to some damned fast burn out.

Rotations are a balancing act between the fun of racing, and the not-fun of being on call 24/7. I think the mechanics of VP lend themselves exceptionally well to a diplomatic solution, and I would be exceptionally pleased if the leadership of both TR and TMO recognized that and agreed to trade off that zone and only that zone. Hell, you could even make Phara`Dar separate. If by some miracle a gentleman's agreement was reached for VP, the devs could even eliminate the variance for that zone and make it all repop at the same time or something like that.

TLDR: Rotations fail when they're allowed to become just as convoluted and stupid as a pure FFA situation. There is a real middle ground to be had, and I am hopeful that the leadership of both TR and TMO recognizes this.

-Xasten

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by Dravingar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What would the rules be on level 60 alt raid guilds? Would they be exempt or are they allowed to be on the rotation because all it will take is people leveling up/buying alts to have multiple armies/guilds and still be able to effectively make getting trakanon impossible still.

Plus, rotations are beyond dumb.

Like I said, the easiest way to work around this is to allow guilds to rotate on mobs that they've already killed before, except on server repops. Really server repops are the only way of meritocratically determining what guilds are worthy of killing certain bosses since they're unpredictable and require actual mobilization (as opposed to sitting on spawn points or having your entire guild camped out near a raid mob).