Somebody with wiki permissions...

[loramin]

Just curious (since I can't check right now) did anyone try the "spoiler text" hack Claude found? I honestly don't even know if it will work, but if it does it seems like Danth's idea might make everyone happy.

Not having long examples cluttering up the page should appease most, but the most disingenuous person on this forum (e.g. he claims to love both the wiki and damage calculation, but wasn't willing to put even minimal effort to get his DPS calculator on the wiki, where others could actually use it) gets to keep his examples on the page also.

[bcbrown]

Yeah, it works. DSM is starting another 50-edit spree right now.

DSM, you know there's a "preview" button, right? Just wait to save your changes until you're satisfied, you don't need to re-save each individual edit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, it works. DSM is starting another 50-edit spree right now.

DSM, you know there's a "preview" button, right? Just wait to save your changes until you're satisfied, you don't need to re-save each individual edit.

I use the preview button. I just missed a few small things after reading it again. There is nothing wrong with multiple edits, especially when it makes the document more clear. I am sorry you have some weird obsession about how many edits are acceptable.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just curious (since I can't check right now) did anyone try the "spoiler text" hack Claude found? I honestly don't even know if it will work, but if it does it seems like Danth's idea might make everyone happy.

Not having long examples cluttering up the page should appease most, but the most disingenuous person on this forum (e.g. he claims to love both the wiki and damage calculation, but wasn't willing to put even minimal effort to get his DPS calculator on the wiki, where others could actually use it) gets to keep his examples on the page also.

Yes, the spoiler text worked.

Lormain put my DPS calculator up on the wiki in a broken state. The way he set it up on the wiki was broken, and he didn't test it.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

P.S. It's also untested, so I make no promises about it being bug free [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Any basic programmer would test code before pushing it live.

He did this without my permission, but then later made a wiki suspension ruling saying you can't make wiki pages for other people. Total hypocrite.

I couldn't fix the code myself, as the way Loramin deployed the calculator on the wiki was only editable by wiki admins. I asked him to fix it, but he did nothing for over a month. I took it down because I didn't want people to use a broken calculator.

I am not sure why he is blaming me for his mistakes. I didn't build my initial calculator for wiki use, nor did I ask him to put it on the wiki. He clearly isn't a good enough programmer to properly put it on the wiki, so I don't know how it can ever go up on the wiki. Perhaps another wiki admin who knows what they are doing could do it.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you are going to a wiki page to learn about game mechanics, then there is obviously something you may not know about. If you knew everything about P99, you wouldn't be visiting the wiki.

My opinion is it's better to provide as much information as possible, and let the reader decide what is and isn't important to them. Not everybody is the same.

My point is that in every MMO ever, class and level affect calculations. Seems like if you really want to show examples then at absolute most you need like 2 examples (level 30 and level 60) for each melee class if it's a melee skill for instance. It's illustrative. And then there is the formula for people to do math.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My point is that in every MMO ever, class and level affect calculations. Seems like if you really want to show examples then at absolute most you need like 2 examples (level 30 and level 60) for each melee class if it's a melee skill for instance. It's illustrative. And then there is the formula for people to do math.

I have 10 examples on the page:

1 Bow example, as the calculation differs from regular melee.

1 throwing example, as the calculation differs from regular melee.

1 level 60 Shaman example with Avatar, to show how overcapping on STR and ATK affects the calculation.

1 one handed level 60 melee example, to show the one handed damage bonus.

1 two handed level 60 melee example, to show the two handed damage bonus.

1 dual wield + crit level 25 Warrior example to show low level damage + crit calculations.

1 level 24 Cleric example so you can see the difference between a Cleric and a Warrior at low levels, before the main hand damage bonus comes in to play.

1 one handed dual wield level 52 melee example, so you can see how 1h compares to 2h before the two handed damage bonuses get really good.

2 two handed evel 52 melee examples, so you can see how 1h compares to 2h before the two handed damage bonuses get really good.

All of the examples show a different thing. I could get rid of one of the 2h level 52 examples I guess, but that is the only duplicate.

Having 10 examples with videos and logs is also a way to show solid evidence for the current calculations. If you only had 2 examples, someone could claim that the formula only works in those scenarios, and breaks down elsewhere.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I use the preview button. I just missed a few small things after reading it again. There is nothing wrong with multiple edits, especially when it makes the document more clear. I am sorry you have some weird obsession about how many edits are acceptable.



Yes, the spoiler text worked.

Lormain put my DPS calculator up on the wiki in a broken state. The way he set it up on the wiki was broken, and he didn't test it.



Any basic programmer would test code before pushing it live.

He did this without my permission, but then later made a wiki suspension ruling saying you can't make wiki pages for other people. Total hypocrite.

I couldn't fix the code myself, as the way Loramin deployed the calculator on the wiki was only editable by wiki admins. I asked him to fix it, but he did nothing for over a month. I took it down because I didn't want people to use a broken calculator.

I am not sure why he is blaming me for his mistakes. I didn't build my initial calculator for wiki use, nor did I ask him to put it on the wiki. He clearly isn't a good enough programmer to properly put it on the wiki, so I don't know how it can ever go up on the wiki. Perhaps another wiki admin who knows what they are doing could do it.

Youu wrote and shared a first version, that logged all output in (a lot of) functions. A web app can't work that way: it needs a function that returns everything it needs to show (so it can show it).

I assumed you wanted to share your calculator with people, so I took my time to rewrite it for the web, and explained you could update it by A) extending the version I made, or B) changing your "v2" to return instead of log.

Instead, you opted for C) no one can conveniently see/use your calculator on the wiki. To me, it looked like, instead of caring about damage calculation and the wiki, you cared more about being offended that I tried to let others see the calculator you built ... but you have your memory and I have mine /shrug

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Youu wrote and shared a first version, that logged all output in (a lot of) functions. A web app can't work that way: it needs a function that returns everything it needs to show (so it can show it).

I assumed you wanted to share your calculator with people, so I took my time to rewrite it for the web, and explained you could update it by A) extending the version I made, or B) changing your "v2" to return instead of log.

Instead, you opted for C) no one can conveniently see/use your calculator on the wiki. To me, it looked like, instead of caring about damage calculation and the wiki, you cared more about being offended that I tried to let others see the calculator you built ... but you have your memory and I have mine /shrug

I know a web app doesn't work that way. I didn't build the first version as a web app. That is what you are missing. I never said that the calculator was a finished product ready to be deployed. In the initial post, I even stated a few things were missing, and bugs were present. Perhaps you assumed it was a web app since it was built in javascript. I only used javascript because it was a language that doesn't need to be compiled, and can be run on free websites like playcode.io.

I posted a work in progress version that wasn't finished to get feedback from the community. Thats it. I have no idea where you got this idea that I didn't want to share the calculator. Why would I post the source code for the calculator if I didn't want people to see it or use it?

I didn't want people to use a broken version of my calculator. The wiki version was broken.

You took it upon yourself to upload the calculator code. That means you willingly took responsibility for managing the calculator code, since I can't edit it myself. Only wiki admins can. I didn't ask you to do that.

The issue was you took on the responsibility, without having the time or the will to see it finished. I have no issue with you not having the time to get the calculator working. We are all adults. My issue is you took the responsibilty on your own, and blamed me for your lack of time and commitment to get the calculator working properly.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by TheBlob [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That being said, I agree that the formulas might be a bit intimidating for a new player and might be easier for a newer player if it was kept simple, and maybe the more complex stuffed moved to an "advanced mechanics" or something page.

Originally Posted by Defo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know what it looked like before hand, but I will admit that the section on melee damage seems.. a bit much.

If I were a new player, I'd be looking for a simplified version of your formulas, and not several different scenarios across different characters. That info is great, but maybe it belongs on a sub-page. It's the only section on the game mechanics page that has that much detail, and I think it makes melee damage seem very complicated - something that might make new players avoid reading it.

Originally Posted by Mortdecai99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

maybe you could put all your examples on a separate page and link to them

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In lieu of using separate pages, is there a possibility of putting the examples into a hidden frame / spoiler link that displays on the same page but only expands when clicked? That'd allow simplifying the page while keeping it one page--if the wiki supports something to that effect.

Originally Posted by Reiwa [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What about one math and one example and a table of values for what you're demonstrating?

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My point is that in every MMO ever, class and level affect calculations. Seems like if you really want to show examples then at absolute most you need like 2 examples (level 30 and level 60) for each melee class if it's a melee skill for instance. It's illustrative. And then there is the formula for people to do math.

It looks like there's a community consensus that the examples could be improved. I put them all under the collapsible div, and also rewrote the calculation to hopefully be a bit easier to follow.

Since this is a community resource, which version of the calculation do people prefer?

Rewritten Version

StrengthModifier = ((2 * STR) - 150) / 3
if STR is less than 75:
    StrengthModifier = 0

Wrath = Weapon Skill + StrengthModifier + Worn ATK + Spell ATK

if Wrath is less than 115 or <random value between 0 and 100> is less than maxExtraChance:
    ExtraPercent = 100
else:
    BaseBonus = (Wrath - minusFactor) / 2
    if BaseBonus is less than 10:
        BaseBonus = 10
    ExtraPercent = 100 + (BaseBonus * <random value between 0.0 and 1.0)
RolledD20 = Weighted D20 Dice Roll / 10
DamageDone = (Weapon Damage * RolledD20 * ExtraPercent) / 100

if Archery and mob is rooted or moving:
    DamageDone = DamageDone / 2
if critical hit:
    if DamageDone is less than Weapon Damage:
        DamageDone = Weapon Damage
    if warrior and berserk:
        DamageDone = 1.7 * (DamageDone + 5) + 1.19 * (DamageDone + 5)
    else:
        DamageDone = 1.7 * (DamageDone + 5)
FinalDamage = DamageDone + DamageBonus

Original Version

1. Calculate Wrath
1a. StrengthModifier = ((2 * STR) - 150) / 3
1b. If STR is less than 75, StrengthModifier = 0

1c. Wrath = Weapon Skill + StrengthModifier + Worn ATK + Spell ATK

2. Roll a D20
Press the expand button if you want to see how the game weights the D20 dice. 
 [Expand] 

2k. RolledD20 = Weighted D20 Dice Roll / 10

3. Calculate DamageDone
3a. If Wrath is less than 115, Extra Percent = 100, skip to step 3g
3b. Roll D100. If Rolled D100 is less than maxExtraChance, Extra Percent = 100, skip to step 3g
3c. Base Bonus = (Wrath - minusFactor) / 2
3d. If Base Bonus is less than 10, Base Bonus = 10
3e. Extra Percent = 100 + (Base Bonus * Random Float Value between 0.0 and 1.0)
3f. If Extra Percent is greater than maxExtra, Extra Percent = maxExtra

3g. DamageDone = (Weapon Damage * RolledD20 * Extra Percent) / 100

4. Calculate FinalDamage
4a. If using Archery, DamageDone = DamageDone / 2
4b. If not using Archery, or using Archery as a Ranger and target is "stationary" (mob not moving and not rooted), skip step 4a
4c. If Critical Hit is possible and has occurred, continue to step 4d. Otherwise skip to step 4i
4d. If DamageDone is less than Weapon Damage, DamageDone = Weapon Damage
4e. DamageDone = DamageDone + 5
4f. DamageDone = DamageDone * 1.7
4g. Continue if Warrior and Berserk
4h. DamageDone = DamageDone + (Damage from step 4e * 1.19)

4i. FinalDamage = DamageDone + Main Hand Damage Bonus

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It looks like there's a community consensus that the examples could be improved. I put them all under the collapsible div, and also rewrote the calculation to hopefully be a bit easier to follow.

Since this is a community resource, which version of the calculation do people prefer?

Rewritten Version

StrengthModifier = ((2 * STR) - 150) / 3
if STR is less than 75:
    StrengthModifier = 0

Wrath = Weapon Skill + StrengthModifier + Worn ATK + Spell ATK

if Wrath is less than 115 or <random value between 0 and 100> is less than maxExtraChance:
    ExtraPercent = 100
else:
    BaseBonus = (Wrath - minusFactor) / 2
    if BaseBonus is less than 10:
        BaseBonus = 10
    ExtraPercent = 100 + (BaseBonus * <random value between 0.0 and 1.0)
RolledD20 = Weighted D20 Dice Roll / 10
DamageDone = (Weapon Damage * RolledD20 * ExtraPercent) / 100

if Archery and mob is rooted or moving:
    DamageDone = DamageDone / 2
if critical hit:
    if DamageDone is less than Weapon Damage:
        DamageDone = Weapon Damage
    if warrior and berserk:
        DamageDone = 1.7 * (DamageDone + 5) + 1.19 * (DamageDone + 5)
    else:
        DamageDone = 1.7 * (DamageDone + 5)
FinalDamage = DamageDone + DamageBonus

Original Version

1. Calculate Wrath
1a. StrengthModifier = ((2 * STR) - 150) / 3
1b. If STR is less than 75, StrengthModifier = 0

1c. Wrath = Weapon Skill + StrengthModifier + Worn ATK + Spell ATK

2. Roll a D20
Press the expand button if you want to see how the game weights the D20 dice. 
 [Expand] 

2k. RolledD20 = Weighted D20 Dice Roll / 10

3. Calculate DamageDone
3a. If Wrath is less than 115, Extra Percent = 100, skip to step 3g
3b. Roll D100. If Rolled D100 is less than maxExtraChance, Extra Percent = 100, skip to step 3g
3c. Base Bonus = (Wrath - minusFactor) / 2
3d. If Base Bonus is less than 10, Base Bonus = 10
3e. Extra Percent = 100 + (Base Bonus * Random Float Value between 0.0 and 1.0)
3f. If Extra Percent is greater than maxExtra, Extra Percent = maxExtra

3g. DamageDone = (Weapon Damage * RolledD20 * Extra Percent) / 100

4. Calculate FinalDamage
4a. If using Archery, DamageDone = DamageDone / 2
4b. If not using Archery, or using Archery as a Ranger and target is "stationary" (mob not moving and not rooted), skip step 4a
4c. If Critical Hit is possible and has occurred, continue to step 4d. Otherwise skip to step 4i
4d. If DamageDone is less than Weapon Damage, DamageDone = Weapon Damage
4e. DamageDone = DamageDone + 5
4f. DamageDone = DamageDone * 1.7
4g. Continue if Warrior and Berserk
4h. DamageDone = DamageDone + (Damage from step 4e * 1.19)

4i. FinalDamage = DamageDone + Main Hand Damage Bonus

That is a lot worse to be honest. Not everybody is a programmer. Writing it in psuedo-code is confusing. The old page didn't do pseudo-code either. Going to revert this for now.

[bcbrown]

Wait for the community to weigh in please.