Chardok exploitation hurting the spirit of the game

[cd288]

Originally Posted by spoil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"You have been summoned!"

There is no way to avoid being hit by a summoning mob. Either you get summoned and get hit, or if you're in a better position you don't get summoned and still get hit.

Also FD has a 1.5 second cast time, same as color slant (and half a second more than color flux). So Necro won't be more safe on a charm break than an Enchanter. Plus Enchanters should have two runes up at all times, so the channeling nerf only comes into play once you lose both runes. Because you can sit or camp out with a mob beating you, as long as a rune holds you won't be interrupted. That's an over 1000 HP buffer with fresh runes.

I never said Necro would be more safe, think you misunderstood my comment.

Also, it's going to depend on the dungeon/area you're in. You can get FD off in time in a lot of circumstances barring a fizzle.

[sammoHung]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I do wonder how this would affect Shaman face tanking and soloing

All classes that cast during combat will greatly suffer. Shaman will see a huge hit. Hell, even tanks like Paladin / SK. The mathematics of the proposed changes are pretty absurd, based on how it currently stands and Channeling skill's effect on rolls.

As it stands: If you start a cast and get hit mid-cast, you have to make a roll to succeed. Each subsequent hit during cast adds a penalty to your roll. This seems appropriately balanced for a non-classic server.

The changes would mean that every hit you have to perform a new roll. And you have to win ALL of the rolls in order to succeed the cast. I'm not sure how Channeling currently effects your roll chances, but let's say you had a 50% chance to win the roll. And you got hit 4 times between start of cast and end of cast. The probability of you winning all 4 rolls, at 50% odds per roll is 0.5 ^ 4, which is ~6%. If you got hit 8 times, the probability of winning all 8 rolls at 50% odds drops to ~0.3%.

Some things to consider:

• Rune / Bedlam, etc does NOT stop spells from being interrupted. You don't take damage, but still have to win rolls to continue cast.
• As it stands, with 252 Channeling and level 60, fighting against a level 40-45 mob: I have recorded many instances of 3-4 hits in a round interrupting a cast pretty reliably with the current channeling mechanic. There have been times on my 60 Necro where a green pet with a torch has chunked me down 1k+ HP before I could get a root or Mez off. I've had to kite around to gain enough distance to cast 2.5s Screaming Terror or 1.75s Immobilize, just to make sure I don't get interrupted.

There is no guarantee that you will succeed a cast currently, even with max channeling, even at level 60, even vs. a mob that is 15-20 levels lower than you. There is a guarantee that past a certain number of hits, it will be probabilistically impossible to actually succeed a cast. (Granted, I used a simple example of 50% odds to win, which may not be representative of how the channeling skill weights rolls vs. NPC)

a) I'm not sure that's how classic worked. I'm dubious of the source of most of these "proofs" about how classic worked. It seems nilbog is relying on player logs to implement mechanic changes. I can understand at low levels this being the case - but at 60 with max channeling against a green mob, it should most definitely not be the case.
b) With all of the non-classic "QoL" changes made to this server - why nerf this when there isn't sufficient data to support it. Again, nilbog is cherry picking little pet projects to implement, but we still have rooted dragons, item links in chat, /makeleader, 7 day corpses, etc, etc, etc.
c) and furthermore, the channeling skill is not implemented correctly on saving throws currently. Maybe fix that first?

[sammoHung]

EDIT in bold

Originally Posted by sammoHung [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is no guarantee that you will succeed a cast currently, even with max channeling, even at level 60, even vs. a mob that is 15-20 levels lower than you. There is a guarantee that past a certain number of hits, it will be probabilistically impossible to actually succeed a cast with the proposed change.

[kjs86z2]

rip solo

[vales]

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So standing in a corner begin casting a 24 second DD spell fom a robe then running around, then standing in same corner to complete the cast will be unaffected?

Outstanding.

that is how casting has always worked, I was doing it in-era

so changing it would be moving away from classic not towards it

[loramin]

Originally Posted by sammoHung [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All classes that cast during combat will greatly suffer. Shaman will see a huge hit. Hell, even tanks like Paladin / SK. The mathematics of the proposed changes are pretty absurd, based on how it currently stands and Channeling skill's effect on rolls.

As it stands: If you start a cast and get hit mid-cast, you have to make a roll to succeed. Each subsequent hit during cast adds a penalty to your roll. This seems appropriately balanced for a non-classic server.

The changes would mean that every hit you have to perform a new roll. And you have to win ALL of the rolls in order to succeed the cast. I'm not sure how Channeling currently effects your roll chances, but let's say you had a 50% chance to win the roll. And you got hit 4 times between start of cast and end of cast. The probability of you winning all 4 rolls, at 50% odds per roll is 0.5 ^ 4, which is ~6%. If you got hit 8 times, the probability of winning all 8 rolls at 50% odds drops to ~0.3%.

Some things to consider:

• Rune / Bedlam, etc does NOT stop spells from being interrupted. You don't take damage, but still have to win rolls to continue cast.
• As it stands, with 252 Channeling and level 60, fighting against a level 40-45 mob: I have recorded many instances of 3-4 hits in a round interrupting a cast pretty reliably with the current channeling mechanic. There have been times on my 60 Necro where a green pet with a torch has chunked me down 1k+ HP before I could get a root or Mez off. I've had to kite around to gain enough distance to cast 2.5s Screaming Terror or 1.75s Immobilize, just to make sure I don't get interrupted.

There is no guarantee that you will succeed a cast currently, even with max channeling, even at level 60, even vs. a mob that is 15-20 levels lower than you. There is a guarantee that past a certain number of hits, it will be probabilistically impossible to actually succeed a cast. (Granted, I used a simple example of 50% odds to win, which may not be representative of how the channeling skill weights rolls vs. NPC)

a) I'm not sure that's how classic worked. I'm dubious of the source of most of these "proofs" about how classic worked. It seems nilbog is relying on player logs to implement mechanic changes. I can understand at low levels this being the case - but at 60 with max channeling against a green mob, it should most definitely not be the case.
b) With all of the non-classic "QoL" changes made to this server - why nerf this when there isn't sufficient data to support it. Again, nilbog is cherry picking little pet projects to implement, but we still have rooted dragons, item links in chat, /makeleader, 7 day corpses, etc, etc, etc.
c) and furthermore, the channeling skill is not implemented correctly on saving throws currently. Maybe fix that first?

If you actually played in classic, you'd know that P99 has been unclassic for a very, very long time. As I've repeated often over more than a decade playing here: Enchanters were never the solo gods of classic. Hell, they weren't even in the top 3 of solo classes!

Now you (or anyone) can decide to be like Chicken Little, claim the sky is falling, and blame the people who worked incredibly hard to make this place more classic ... or you can celebrate the fact that, after all this time, you finally get to play classic EverQuest.

I hear it was a pretty good game ... maybe even a better game than the partial re-creation that you've gotten used to?

[Danth]

Shamans were doing West Wastes dragons in-era, but those are mostly solo pulls and can often be pre-slowed before going into melee. What really hurts is brute force type pulls where you need to split a room by pulling 3-5 mobs and rooting them as they whack on you. That shouldn't really be much of a thing. It's also why a charm break on a hasted quadding pet was hugely dangerous--could effectively get locked down by it--and why enchanters weren't a big solo class in the early days even ignoring charm duration irregularities on P99.

Oh, and just wait and see if they fix lull spells to behave more properly, too.

Ignoring all this, would be nice if they got around to fixing spell aggro sometime. Debuff counters still seem borked and doing minimal aggro. Being able to dot/debuff at virtually no risk feels like "EQ for dummies." Hope it gets a look.

That being said, after 16 years on P99 I'd also be fine with them leaving "blue" as-is and restricting these types of major changes to a new server. P99 has its own history at this point, and that history is far longer than the few short years of original-era EQ. Don't think the admins here want to maintain separate codebases though, so that's probably not going to be a thing.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by sammoHung [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All classes that cast during combat will greatly suffer. Shaman will see a huge hit. Hell, even tanks like Paladin / SK. The mathematics of the proposed changes are pretty absurd, based on how it currently stands and Channeling skill's effect on rolls.

As it stands: If you start a cast and get hit mid-cast, you have to make a roll to succeed. Each subsequent hit during cast adds a penalty to your roll. This seems appropriately balanced for a non-classic server.

The changes would mean that every hit you have to perform a new roll. And you have to win ALL of the rolls in order to succeed the cast. I'm not sure how Channeling currently effects your roll chances, but let's say you had a 50% chance to win the roll. And you got hit 4 times between start of cast and end of cast. The probability of you winning all 4 rolls, at 50% odds per roll is 0.5 ^ 4, which is ~6%. If you got hit 8 times, the probability of winning all 8 rolls at 50% odds drops to ~0.3%.

Some things to consider:

• Rune / Bedlam, etc does NOT stop spells from being interrupted. You don't take damage, but still have to win rolls to continue cast.
• As it stands, with 252 Channeling and level 60, fighting against a level 40-45 mob: I have recorded many instances of 3-4 hits in a round interrupting a cast pretty reliably with the current channeling mechanic. There have been times on my 60 Necro where a green pet with a torch has chunked me down 1k+ HP before I could get a root or Mez off. I've had to kite around to gain enough distance to cast 2.5s Screaming Terror or 1.75s Immobilize, just to make sure I don't get interrupted.

There is no guarantee that you will succeed a cast currently, even with max channeling, even at level 60, even vs. a mob that is 15-20 levels lower than you. There is a guarantee that past a certain number of hits, it will be probabilistically impossible to actually succeed a cast. (Granted, I used a simple example of 50% odds to win, which may not be representative of how the channeling skill weights rolls vs. NPC)

a) I'm not sure that's how classic worked. I'm dubious of the source of most of these "proofs" about how classic worked. It seems nilbog is relying on player logs to implement mechanic changes. I can understand at low levels this being the case - but at 60 with max channeling against a green mob, it should most definitely not be the case.
b) With all of the non-classic "QoL" changes made to this server - why nerf this when there isn't sufficient data to support it. Again, nilbog is cherry picking little pet projects to implement, but we still have rooted dragons, item links in chat, /makeleader, 7 day corpses, etc, etc, etc.
c) and furthermore, the channeling skill is not implemented correctly on saving throws currently. Maybe fix that first?

I would wonder if those interrupts you're experiencing are due to pushes rather than a channeling interruption?

I do think channeling on P99 is non-classic and has needed an update. It does seem like they may be going non-classic with this update based on the evidence they are using to create the calculation in question. Maybe it will just need a bit of tuning.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you actually played in classic, you'd know that P99 has been unclassic for a very, very long time. As I've repeated often over more than a decade playing here: Enchanters were never the solo gods of classic. Hell, they weren't even in the top 3 of solo classes!

Now you (or anyone) can decide to be like Chicken Little, claim the sky is falling, and blame the people who worked incredibly hard to make this place more classic ... or you can celebrate the fact that, after all this time, you finally get to play classic EverQuest.

I hear it was a pretty good game ... maybe even a better game than the partial re-creation that you've gotten used to?

My advice to everyone else: Loramin is fun to talk to about certain EverQuest related things. But when he starts talking about classic vs non-classic just don't read his comments as they usually don't offer anything tangible...it's mostly just "I remember things a certain way so that's how it should be."

[spoil]

Originally Posted by sammoHung [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Rune / Bedlam, etc does NOT stop spells from being interrupted. You don't take damage, but still have to win rolls to continue cast.

Yeah, sorry for the fake news.

Fri Sep 19 22:17:30 2025] Warlord Hikyg says, 'You shall be punished!!'
[Fri Sep 19 22:17:30 2025] Your charm spell has worn off.
[Fri Sep 19 22:17:31 2025] You begin casting Color Slant.
[Fri Sep 19 22:17:31 2025] Your spell is interrupted.
[Fri Sep 19 22:17:31 2025] Warlord Hikyg tries to bash YOU, but YOUR magical skin absorbs the blow!
[Fri Sep 19 22:17:31 2025] Warlord Hikyg tries to slash YOU, but YOUR magical skin absorbs the blow!
...
[Fri Sep 19 22:17:32 2025] Your bedlam fades.

One of the first cases I found in my logs, lol. Embarrassed that I didn't know that, but then again what sticks in my memory are the times that I died. Also weird how sit/camp isn't interrupted, but channeling is.

Originally Posted by sammoHung [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can understand at low levels this being the case - but at 60 with max channeling against a green mob, it should most definitely not be the case

I also thought they implemented more classic channeling on TAKP/PQ? Because what you're saying echoes my experience on PQ. Channeling was super difficult at lower levels getting interrupted by a lava beetle, then progressively easier as the channeling skill got higher.

I remember camping Lord in lguk in the mid-late 40s and being able to get off a DA with several mobs beating on me, or a stun and root to deal with a single, no big deal. And these mobs at worst were only a few levels below me.