Claw of Lightning or Rogue Epic for offhand?

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Basically. In my experience, Claw = Ragebringer and Vyemm's Fang = Mrylokar's Dagger. The claw's better ratio has to compete with -40 ATK on every main hand, off hand, and backstab attack. It balances out to a degree, but it's lateral at best. Fang rogues perform just as well as Mrylokar rogues, but the lifetap DoT the best QoL boost you'll ever get on a rogue. It's a constant 30 hp regen buff that softens AoEs and keeps you patched up.

All that makes sense. The bummer is swapping in/out the fang for the epic (or myro) there is the lag while the client adapts to the slower delay. Same reason people don’t cycle in a weighted axe, but obviously an extreme version of that.

People do a lot of silly things for stats. The Ragebringer has a bucket of hps, 20sv magic, and attack. I feel like people rush to bag it because it looks like they are more elite. If your offhand does roughly 20-30% of your total damage you have to make massive offhand gains to see the effect on the parse. I don’t think the juice is worth the squeeze even just by the napkin math.

For the tryhards out there, I’d pick up a Silver Whip of Rage. You can casually swap that into to either slot since the rune lasts like half an hour. You also might be in a situation where you are called to MA for the raid or need to tank something where it would be a noticeable boost in durability. In our guild these are stupidly cheap compared to a claw.

[Cecily]

Absolutely love that whip on my ranger. It's a hard sell on a rogue, but I toyed with the idea of just running that offhand for ToV / HoT clears for passive runes. There's really no way to use it without taking a big DPS hit. The fun thing is when you get really experienced on rogue, you realize your contribution to the raid is more you being there than anything else. The difference between a rogue running 80% dps and 99% dps efficiency is effectively no difference at all. You maybe add 2-3 seconds onto an encounter by not tryharding. Rogues are like bees. One hurts, but it takes a lot to kill something.

I don't quite remember the details, but TMO rogues back on Blue were pretty against weapon swapping as well. I think their testing came to the conclusion that the lag you mention interfered with the mainhand swing timer, which I believe ended up being the currently equipped weapon determining the next swing's timer, making Efreeti War Spear a *real* bad choice for swaps. Even with Ragebringer, you're going to be tacking a significantly higher delay timer onto your next swing. Also it's a huge source of potential user error. It's one more thing taking attention when I'd like to be watching for flips or my HP or that pesky enrage thing.

[kjs86z2]

The only swapping you should be doing is from your primal proc to Weapon X + Epic.

Vyemm whip is a stretch. Just chug worts.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Looking at my DPS calculator with Backstab now included. Here are some DPS values on a standard mob and a raid mob. The Rogue is level 60, has 255 STR, 100% Haste, and 100 ATK base:

Against a normal level 50 mob with 115 AC:

1. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lighting Secondary - 121 DPS including Backstab and + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary + Ragebringer Secondary - 122 DPS including Backstabs and + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

3. Vyemm Fang Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary - 125 DPS including Backstab, no swap-in with Ragebringer.

Against a 60+ mob with 400 AC and 200 AGI:

1. Ragebringer Primary + Claw of Lighting Secondary - 80 DPS including Backstab and + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary + Ragebringer Secondary - 82 DPS including Backstabs and + 40 ATK from Ragebringer.

3. Vyemm Fang Primary + Claw of Lightning Secondary - 82 DPS including Backstab, no swap-in with Ragebringer.

[Cecily]

It's like they're the same number or something.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

create a ranger so I can give you bad advice for that class [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] .

See - Snaggles is right- their very first piece of ranger advice is already bad - under no circumstances create a ranger!!

Jk jk

[Jimjam]

Dsm, what does your calc say the dps of just the ragebringer in primary including bs and + attack? Disable any dual wield, etc

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dsm, what does your calc say the dps of just the ragebringer in primary including bs and + attack? Disable any dual wield, etc

Just as a quick note, the DPS calculations in my previous post did not have backstab double attack. I realized I forgot to push the absolute latest code. That is fixed now. The DPS ratios between the weapons wouldn't really change, the numbers will just go up.

Here is Ragebringer and Fang with backstab double attack and without dual wield. The Rogue is level 60, has 255 STR, 100% Haste, and 100 ATK base:

Against a normal level 50 mob with 115 AC:

1. Ragebringer Primary - 109 DPS with Backstab and the + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary - 110 DPS with Backstab.

Against a 60+ mob with 400 AC and 200 AGI:

1. Ragebringer Primary - 74 DPS with Backstab and the + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary - 74 DPS with Backstab.

It looks like the lower Backstab damage from Fang is offsetting Fang's better autoattack DPS. Ragebringer does do significantly more backstab damage. It looks like Ragebringer is doing around 80k damage via backstab, vs 45k damage via Vyemm Fang against the level 50 mob.

This is probably why swapping Ragebringer to mainhand for backstabs is a good idea when using Fang. I can't imagine the small loss in autoattack DPS from the swap would offset the higher backstabs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just to make sure there is no confusion, the 45k backstab number vs. The 80k backstab number is largely due to Ragebringer being slower, and thus more backstabs are done within the same number of swings tested for both weapons.

Vyemm Fang had like 270 Backstabs vs. 400 from Ragebringer. 270 / 400 = 0.675 x 80,0000 = ~54k backstab damage from Ragebringer vs. ~45k backstab damage from Fang in the same timeframe.

Without backstab Ragebringer does 45 DPS vs Fang's 57 DPS against the level 50 mob. 9000 extra backstab damage from Ragebringer over 850 seconds (the total fight time using Fang) is around 11 DPS. This is how Ragebringer catches up. Ragebringer loses around 12 DPS from a worse ratio, but gains around 11 DPS from a better backstab.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Against a 60+ mob with 400 AC and 200 AGI:

1. Ragebringer Primary - 74 DPS with Backstab and the + 40 ATK.

2. Vyemm Fang Primary - 74 DPS with Backstab.

This is not what parses from end game encounters reflect at all. Your calculator is wrong. Even Thornstinger (12/19) parses even with Ragebringer (15/25) against red con targets like vindi/aow. DPS against junk targets is insignificant. Fix your shit or quit bringing it up.