Myconid Spore King - Monk Solo

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I did explain it in the page

You did not. I literally just quoted the one single line you put on top of the page - "This is his version of the solo artist challenge". That is not an accurate description, and no description would change how the title of the page was falsely named.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are just unable to compromise

That's what you've been doing.

Even more hilariously, you're trying to say anyone who doesn't exactly agree with you is "not compromising" (and nobody agrees with you, except for 1 other very selfish person who is simply mad about the fact that soloing with no outside buffs or consumables is a way tons of people play the game and have completed solo challenges).

Originally Posted by Stryker85 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My gripe with proposed changes is that it would prevent any melee character from EVER achieving an S+ grade on literally ANY mob past the Grandmaster tier.

That's not true, and most melee classes can't do much even with outside buffs, it's mainly just Monks. Most casters are also not able to: Wizards, Clerics, Mages, Druids. And also even when being allowed buffs, no melee character did it in Kunark era anyway.

Your entire viewpoint is just that you want Monks (yourself) to be more "competitive" with Enchanters and Shaman. That is not the purpose of the challenges. It's not a battle of each player being limited to 1 specific class or trying to have rules that allow every class to compete equally; that is not possible in the first place. EQ is EQ, things are vastly imbalanced when it comes to the soloing capability different classes have.

The point of the solo challenges is to see how far each specific class can go. Completing an encounter at S- tier with a certain class could be comparatively more impressive than doing it at S+ tier with another class. Your S tier kill is the highest tier achieved in a public video as a Monk for that encounter. Instead of being glad to have achieved the current highest tier for a Monk, you're trying to tear down other people and rage against changes most people have said make sense. Changes that are objectively the much more accurate way to categorize videos and allow players to search for examples of things to try themselves.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You did not. I literally just quoted the one single line you put on top of the page - "This is his version of the solo artist challenge". That is not an accurate description, and no description would change how the title of the page was falsely named.

You misquoted it, just like you misquoted OP and then insisted your misquote was correct:

"This is Zuranthium's version of the solo artist challenge wiki page."

That is factually correct. It is your edited version of the existing solo artist challenge wiki page. It doesn't say you wrote the entire page, and it says where the source came from. People can read this quote for themselves and see you are misreading it to fit your victim narrative.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You misquoted it, just like you misquoted OP and then insisted your misquote was correct:

"This is Zuranthium's version of the solo artist challenge wiki page."

That is factually correct. It is your edited version of the existing solo artist challenge wiki page. It doesn't say you wrote the entire page, and it says where the source came from. People can read this quote for themselves and see you are misreading it to fit your victim narrative.

You also undid many changes that he made on the page. Sounds more like DSM's version of the solo artist challenge.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You also undid many changes that he made on the page. Sounds more like DSM's version of the solo artist challenge.

You and Zur trolled the wiki page to give OP a lower score. The wiki edit history and the post history is clear. Somebody had to undo literal troll edits.

Now Sscalez has gone in and edited it to clean up your mess instead. Next time don't edit the wiki to win a forum argument

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You and Zur trolled the wiki page to give OP a lower score. The wiki edit history and the post history is clear. Somebody had to undo literal troll edits.

Now Sscalez has gone in and edited it to clean up your mess instead. Next time don't edit the wiki to win a forum argument

Is your ability to maintain coherent thought breaking? Who's talking about the edits that Loramin had to remove? I'm talking about the page you used to impersonate another forum poster.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is your ability to maintain coherent thought breaking? Who's talking about the edits that Loramin had to remove? I'm talking about the page you used to impersonate another forum poster.

You can keep repeating the same lies if you want. Loramin made a wiki page for me without my permission, and in a factually broken state that did not represent my calculator. Nobody said he impersonated me when this happened, not even myself. I am sorry you don't know what the defnition of impersonation is. This just makes you look silly.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=993

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can keep repeating the same lies if you want. Loramin made a wiki page for me without my permission, and in a factually broken state that did not represent my calculator. Nobody said he impersonated me when this happened, not even myself. I am sorry you don't know what the defnition of impersonation is. This just makes you look silly.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=993

Oh, wow, it is broken. You're just jumping from one unrelated topic to the next now. I think he's stuck in misdirect mode.

[Stryker85]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's not true, and most melee classes can't do much even with outside buffs, it's mainly just Monks. Most casters are also not able to: Wizards, Clerics, Mages, Druids. And also even when being allowed buffs, no melee character did it in Kunark era anyway.

It's not just about Monks at all. Warriors, Paladins, Shadowknights, and even Rangers can do some impressive things with buffs. And if melees weren't competing very much even when they were allowed to have buffs, then why are you so against them being allowed buffs now? It was done to even the playing field, and even that wasn't really enough to bring them on par with casters (which is fine).

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not a battle of each player being limited to 1 specific class or trying to have rules that allow every class to compete equally; that is not possible in the first place. EQ is EQ, things are vastly imbalanced when it comes to the soloing capability different classes have.

The whole point of having rules in the first place is to try to make it as fair and balanced across the board as possible. Obviously it will never be COMPLETELY balanced, which is why casters still dominated the rankings even when buffs were allowed for melee. But there is no reason to not try to establish rules that allow for more than just caster's to earn the top rank possible.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The point of the solo challenges is to see how far each specific class can go. Completing an encounter at S- tier with a certain class could be comparatively more impressive than doing it at S+ tier with another class. Your S tier kill is the highest tier achieved in a public video as a Monk for that encounter. Instead of being glad to have achieved the current highest tier for a Monk, you're trying to tear down other people and rage against changes most people have said make sense. Changes that are objectively the much more accurate way to categorize videos and allow players to search for examples of things to try themselves.

I think this right here is where the crux of our disagreement stems from. I think the whole point of the solo challenge is to provide a set of parameters for people to challenge themselves against, in a way that awards people appropriately if they are able to do things under the most difficult limitations possible for their class. For example, if a melee can kill a God tier mob without consumables, that is just as difficult, if not more difficult than a caster doing so self buffed, so why should it be ranked any lower? It shouldn't be (imo).

I would appreciate it if you would stop implying that everyone here in this thread is on your side and agrees with you, because we all know that is not even remotely true. There's been maybe 1 other person besides you and Samoht that have tried to claim "buffs mean you weren't solo".

I've already suggested that we make a poll and see what the vast majority of the active EQ population thinks, but you seem to ignore this every time I bring it up... why is that?

I don't want to keep going back and forth with you for another 100 pages when this is obviously going nowhere until we can come to some general consensus. I'm willing to hash this out in discord or somewhere else where we can have a more productive conversation. You should know that if we can't come to agreement, Loramin has said that he will just keep the previous rules intact, and then neither of our proposed changes will make it in. If that's what you want, then fine, but I still think we can find room for compromise.

[Zuranthium]

Obvious alt account is obvious.

Originally Posted by Summers_Light [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I dont know what drugs this guy is on, but pretty much every person that has posted in this thread has been in support of sscalez, not you.

Wrong. A bunch of people have posted saying outside buffs shouldn't be allowed for melee as the highest tier description, and nobody is "not in support" of what he did in his video.

Originally Posted by Stryker85 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And if melees weren't competing very much even when they were allowed to have buffs, then why are you so against them being allowed buffs now?

Velious gear and the 2hander damage increase is a huge buff for melee. But even if it wasn't, that's irrelevant to the question of "what is the best a class can do with no outside buffs and no consumables".

Anyone is ALLOWED to have buffs in the challenge system. It is simply a DIFFERENT TIER of accomplishment.

Regarding balance, you don't seem to realize what a big advantage Monks have in a world where Lull is coded classically, which the p99 devs have said will be implemented at some point.

Originally Posted by Stryker85 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've already suggested that we make a poll and see what the vast majority of the active EQ population thinks, but you seem to ignore this every time I bring it up... why is that?

Polls are manipulated. People who care to have an opinion should speak up. And people have in this thread. The community wants a "no outside buffs/consumables" tier.

Originally Posted by Stryker85 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think the whole point of the solo challenge is to provide a set of parameters for people to challenge themselves against

That's exactly what the updated tiers incentivize.

The point is to try and see how far each class can get with each encounter. It's not a competition of trying to be an S+ Monk vs an S+ Enchanter.

If someone wants to "beat" the accomplishments of an Enchanter who has done 10 S+ God Mode kills, they need to play an Enchanter themselves and do 11 S+ God Mode kills. Just as the Enchanter player would also need to play Monk themselves if they want to "beat" the record of a Monk player.

Originally Posted by Stryker85 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The whole point of having rules in the first place is to try to make it as fair and balanced across the board as possible.

It needs to be fair and balanced in the sense of recognizing the different ways to kill a MOB. Doing it without no outside buffs/consumables is a factual tier. If that is not recognized, then it's inherently not fair.

What it does NOT need to do, and can never do, is try to balance things between classes. What people need to focus on doing is pushing each class to its maximize, in whichever tier they are interested in doing that.

God Mode kills by melee are possible without outside/buffs consumables.

Originally Posted by Stryker85 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's been maybe 1 other person besides you and Samoht that have tried to claim "buffs mean you weren't solo".

There are more than that, but it's irrelevant to the discussion. And it's an indisputable fact (for anyone with a working brain) that an outside buff is increasing the power of a character beyond what they could otherwise do, and contributing the same amount of DPS/Healing with that buff as if the other player was directly adding that amount during combat.

The challenge page is not giving a definition of the word "solo" in a simple binary Yes-or-No answer. It's describing many different categories of doing encounters in EQ. Different peoples' opinions will align with different tiers of what they would consider a "solo". The challenge page recognizes them all.

[Stryker85]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A bunch of people have posted saying outside buffs shouldn't be allowed for melee as the highest tier description

If you can show me LEGITIMATE posts from "a bunch" of people saying that they think outside buffs shouldn't be allowed for melee as the highest tier, then I will stop arguing completely and admit defeat, and you can just impose your will as the Solo Artist Challenge dictator, who doesn't even play EQ anymore. But I think you and I both know that you won't be able to do that. There's been literally ONE SINGLE other person in this entire thread that held the same opinions as you and Samoht. One person is not "a bunch" or even close to a majority.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

that's irrelevant to the question of "what is the best a class can do with no outside buffs and no consumables".

You are the only one insisting that this is the sole purpose of the challenge. To me the purpose of the challenge is for every class to have a set of parameters to compete under that challenges them to complete kills with the most difficult circumstances possible for their class. For melee classes, the most difficult circumstances that they can actually kill a god tier mob under, is buffed with no consumables. There is a reason why NO MELEE has EVER completed a god mode kill without buffs and no consumables, because its literally impossible.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Regarding balance, you don't seem to realize what a big advantage Monks have in a world where Lull is coded classically, which the p99 devs have said will be implemented at some point.

Alright now you lost me, what the hell are you even talking about now?? What would lull coding have anything to do with monks? I'm dying to hear this.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Polls are manipulated. People who care to have an opinion should speak up. And people have in this thread. The community wants a "no outside buffs/consumables" tier.

That's real convenient coming from someone that claims everyone agrees with you, but yet can't show any proof of that what-so-ever. When challenged with a way to prove who the player base really sides with, you come up with this lame ass excuse. We can use a discord poll in the UN or p99 general channel. How do you expect that to be "manipulated" exactly? I'll be surprised if you even make an attempt to answer this, because you know this is a ridiculous excuse.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's exactly what the updated tiers incentivize.
The point is to try and see how far each class can get with each encounter. It's not a competition of trying to be an S+ Monk vs an S+ Enchanter.
If someone wants to "beat" the accomplishments of an Enchanter who has done 10 S+ God Mode kills, they need to play an Enchanter themselves and do 11 S+ God Mode kills. Just as the Enchanter player would also need to play Monk themselves if they want to "beat" the record of a Monk player.

That is just your prerogative and you trying to impose your will for what YOUR vision of the challenge should be, but guess what? It's not just up to you. It's up to everyone that actually plays this game. And I can guarantee you that there are more people that would prefer a balanced ruleset that doesn't gatekeep melee from ever achieving the top rank possible. If you think only casters should be able to achieve an S+ Rank, then why even include melee in the competition at all? What's the point of having a rank that only 1 subset of classes can achieve? Under that logic, melee should have their own competition. That would be stupid and unnecessary though when the rules can be structured to accommodate melee too.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It needs to be fair and balanced in the sense of recognizing the different ways to kill a MOB. Doing it without no outside buffs/consumables is a factual tier. If that is not recognized, then it's inherently not fair.

What it does NOT need to do, and can never do, is try to balance things between classes. What people need to focus on doing is pushing each class to its maximize, in whichever tier they are interested in doing that.

Again, this is just your opinion that you're trying to force on the rest of us. The original creator of the challenge did not agree with that mindset at all. That was the whole reason why melee were allowed to have buffs to begin with, and why there was no stipulation for no consumables at the top rank, because he understood that melee would never be able to compete for that rank otherwise. Melees either need buffs, or they need consumables, they cannot kill anything past the grandmaster tier without both.

I agree that there should be a place to recognize a no consumable kill, which is why when I made the changes attempting to compromise with you, I edited the S+ rank to be either self buffs only OR no consumables. This allows melee to compete for the top rank under the hardest conditions possible for their class, which is the whole point of the ranking system.

You just conceded earlier in one of your recent posts that "Completing an encounter at S- tier with a certain class could be comparatively more impressive than doing it at S+ tier with another class." If that's the case and a kill like this which has never been done IS considered to be more impressive, rarer, and harder to achieve, then why do you think it deserves a lesser rank than a class that's done it numerous times already and can do it with relative ease in comparison?

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

God Mode kills by melee are possible without outside/buffs consumables.

Ohh, is that why its literally NEVER been done before by ANY melee toon EVER? Something tells me you have never played a melee character at level 60, much less tried to solo anything difficult with it. Please show me ANY evidence what-so-ever of any melee character EVER killing a god tier mob without buffs OR consumables... you can't. Its never been done and never will be done... because its 100% impossible.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Feel free to talk on discord if you want. Your writing sounds like another forum user.

I've been asking you to chat on discord for a while now. Clearly we are making zero progress in this thread. Unless you want Loramin to throw both of our suggestions out and revert things back to the original challenge rules, then I suggest we work on some kind of compromise.