Tunnel Gear - Warrior Weapons

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It isn't a debuff but it is still 3 poison counters and I thought poison counters gave a lot of hate?

Did they change how hate works or just the cap?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...highlight=Hate

This was the big hate adjustment patch, which dropped at the end of 2022.

While it doesn't talk about poison counters directly, I remember discussions about poison/disease counters being nerfed/bugged hate-wise. People are saying they don't generate hate. I haven't tested it personally.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s....php?p=3643387

[WarpathEQ]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...highlight=Hate

This was the big hate adjustment patch, which dropped at the end of 2022.

While it doesn't talk about poison counters directly, I remember discussions about poison/disease counters being nerfed/bugged hate-wise. People are saying they don't generate hate. I haven't tested it personally.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s....php?p=3643387

Long.Liam seems to have it right in that second link. That aligns with my understanding and experience of how procs and hate amounts work.

I don't think that poison and disease is bugged just that counters themselves don't add hate. My assumption is that it just goes off the white damage as the hate amount for poison and disease spells/procs/DoTs. Which was likely to balance agro for classes that use big damage poison and disease DoTs (i.e. Shaman).

WESS is a bit unique in that its proc contains poison counters but not really tied to any other outcome, the proc is basically the same exact thing as the bio orb effect, but with some extra poison counters. Any easy test would be compare the hate of the WESS proc to a bio orb click. I bet the hate amount is 100% the same.

Really that means the issue with the WESS isn't a low hate proc, its still an very high hate proc, just has a shitty ratio/high delay compare to other weapons with relatively strong hate procs leading to overall less hate and DPS leading to this item falling out of favor with the tank community.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by WarpathEQ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think that poison and disease is bugged just that counters themselves don't add hate.

Poison/disease counters did generate hate on P99 before. That is why Infestation was a highly sought after Warrior weapon for years. You may not have seen that since you joined in 2023. After the 2022 patch I linked previously, people stopped using weapons that relied on poison/disease counters like Infestation. Raid Warriors usually have a good understanding/feel for their weapon hate. So I believe people when they say poison/disease counter hate changed. I just haven't tested it myself.

[WarpathEQ]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Poison/disease counters did generate hate on P99 before. That is why Infestation was a highly sought after Warrior weapon for years. You may not have seen that since you joined in 2023. After the 2022 patch I linked previously, people stopped using weapons that relied on poison/disease counters like Infestation. Raid Warriors usually have a good understanding/feel for their weapon hate. So I believe people when they say poison/disease counter hate changed. I just haven't tested it myself.

Agreed. Not refuting that it changed, fully aware that these items like WESS and Infestation were go to top tier agro weapons a few years back.

More so that the change is working as intended and that the counters producing hate in the past was likely a bug not a feature.

Just thinking through playing on a shaman for example, if the counters added additional hate it would make it incredibly rare for a shaman to ever not have agro on a mob (certainly in a solo or group situation, but even in raids we often see shaman deaths as it is today without hate from the counters).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by WarpathEQ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Agreed. Not refuting that it changed, fully aware that these items like WESS and Infestation were go to top tier agro weapons a few years back.

More so that the change is working as intended and that the counters producing hate in the past was likely a bug not a feature.

Just thinking through playing on a shaman for example, if the counters added additional hate it would make it incredibly rare for a shaman to ever not have agro on a mob (certainly in a solo or group situation, but even in raids we often see shaman deaths as it is today without hate from the counters).

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification!

Yes, disease/poison counters were an issue for Shamans.

https://youtu.be/umuVBewCNgY?feature=shared

This is a video I made in 2020 showing how to have your pet tank a Cliff Golem. I used Epic and JBB to do most of the work rather than relying on Disease/Poison spells due to the hate generation from those spells.

Originally Posted by WarpathEQ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wouldn't be that hard, swing damage you can just add up any damage done on swings, add it to the theoretical hate amount generated via a proc and get a total hate figure.

For example if we assume both the WESS proc and Bio Orb click generate 800 agro each then you could click the bio orb twice, proc the WESS once and then you should see mob agro flip from the orb clicker to the WESS proc'r once the swing damage crosses 800. Could swap off the proc weapon after getting the desired proc to avoid the chance of accidental additional procs.

Just one way you can do it. A variety of testing methods could be used, all you need is 1 known variable and you can solve for the rest.

Yeah testing hate shouldn't be difficult. You can do it with a pet class or with two players. Just need to be precise when it comes to counting swings/procs/spell casts.

[PatChapp]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ah I see. Thanks for the clarification!

Yes, disease/poison counters were an issue for Shamans.

https://youtu.be/umuVBewCNgY?feature=shared

This is a video I made in 2020 showing how to have your pet tank a Cliff Golem. I used Epic and JBB to do most of the work rather than relying on Disease/Poison spells due to the hate generation from those spells.



Yeah testing hate shouldn't be difficult. You can do it with a pet class or with two players. Just need to be precise when it comes to counting swings/procs/spell casts.

It also had the possibly unintended effect of making tash line of spells near 0 agro.
Before the patch,an early tash on a dragon was called tashicide and was a guaranteed death.
Now you can tash at any point,feels like no more than sit agro.

[WarpathEQ]

Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It also had the possibly unintended effect of making tash line of spells near 0 agro.
Before the patch,an early tash on a dragon was called tashicide and was a guaranteed death.
Now you can tash at any point,feels like no more than sit agro.

Makes sense, without the counter contributing to hate its really just a minor resist debuff, should have similar hate to a click of a flux staff from a wizard for example. Whether that aligns with classic in era I can't say for sure, but certainly aligns with our knowledge of hate/agro mechanics on P99 currently.

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...highlight=Hate

This was the big hate adjustment patch, which dropped at the end of 2022.

While it doesn't talk about poison counters directly, I remember discussions about poison/disease counters being nerfed/bugged hate-wise. People are saying they don't generate hate. I haven't tested it personally.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s....php?p=3643387

Yeah I read that, both the patch and the supposedly buggy poison/disease counters. Nothing super informative in the end. Seems like we'll never know until someone tests it out and that seems like a painstaking process.

WESS is a bit unique in that its proc contains poison counters but not really tied to any other outcome, the proc is basically the same exact thing as the bio orb effect, but with some extra poison counters. Any easy test would be compare the hate of the WESS proc to a bio orb click. I bet the hate amount is 100% the same.

Maybe im dumb but it seems hard to isolate a proc value from swing hate noise. You'd have to account for hate done in real time or be lucky and proc on the first swing.

[WarpathEQ]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah I read that, both the patch and the supposedly buggy poison/disease counters. Nothing super informative in the end. Seems like we'll never know until someone tests it out and that seems like a painstaking process.



Maybe im dumb but it seems hard to isolate a proc value from swing hate noise. You'd have to account for hate done in real time or be lucky and proc on the first swing.

Wouldn't be that hard, swing damage you can just add up any damage done on swings, add it to the theoretical hate amount generated via a proc and get a total hate figure.

For example if we assume both the WESS proc and Bio Orb click generate 800 agro each then you could click the bio orb twice, proc the WESS once and then you should see mob agro flip from the orb clicker to the WESS proc'r once the swing damage crosses 800. Could swap off the proc weapon after getting the desired proc to avoid the chance of accidental additional procs.

Just one way you can do it. A variety of testing methods could be used, all you need is 1 known variable and you can solve for the rest.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by WarpathEQ [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wouldn't be that hard, swing damage you can just add up any damage done on swings, add it to the theoretical hate amount generated via a proc and get a total hate figure.

For example if we assume both the WESS proc and Bio Orb click generate 800 agro each then you could click the bio orb twice, proc the WESS once and then you should see mob agro flip from the orb clicker to the WESS proc'r once the swing damage crosses 800. Could swap off the proc weapon after getting the desired proc to avoid the chance of accidental additional procs.

Just one way you can do it. A variety of testing methods could be used, all you need is 1 known variable and you can solve for the rest.

The proc on WESS is a blind, which actually have aggro rules on their own, more than just hate. It acts like a root when people are in melee range (mob attacks closest) and acts like a fear when there is nobody on the hate list in melee range (mob runs away).