New Druid Advice from the experts

[vales]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the main benefit to Goblin Ring/Ring of Stealthy Travel is the mana saving and saving of a spell slot.

I've seen no evidence that shows instant casting specifically for invis is significant for charm breaks. You can predict 2 seconds ahead when a mob is almost dead.

Invisibility vs animals is 30 mana (and 3 second cast time), you save way more than 30 mana by letting mobs get lower health with an instant cast invis. The spell slot/mana cost of invis is just a bonus, not the focus. You can't predict consistently enough to get the same efficiency as an instant cast, because there are combat rounds where mob hp doesn't move at all, and sometimes consecutive rounds where it spikes.

Originally Posted by Faywind [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would not be keen on doing it naked since that piece is so expensive, I wouldn't have any leftover funds. Time to save up! Glad I don't have to save for jbooots or levi cloak [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah you definitely don't need it. You'll feel the difference before and after though when you do get it. I stopped to farm it at level 39 but it's way easier at 45 with elder spiritist's vambraces. I think the earliest you could farm the tunare root necklace is 29 but 34 or 39 is safer. The changes to equestrielle spawn frequency in lesser faydark make it extremely dangerous to farm, despite being near the mistmoore zoneline.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by vales [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The spell slot/mana cost of invis is just a bonus, not the focus. You can't predict consistently enough to get the same efficiency as an instant cast, because there are combat rounds where mob hp doesn't move at all, and sometimes consecutive rounds where it spikes.

Like the other posters, you have no evidence to suggest the 2 second difference in charm break is significant. If I can predict when to break charm 2 seconds early, you can too.

When multiple posters say the same thing, and none of them have evidence, it may just be a common misconception. Goblin Ring is clickable earlier than Ring of Stealthy Travel, and Goblin Ring was around on both servers a lot longer. Chardok 2.0 is one of the last patches. It's not uncommon for myths like this to form.

[Snaggles]

People can use whatever they want at 49 when the Stealthy Travels ring clicks. It’s up to them to determine if they are effectively the same.

The OP didn’t ask that and is in the teens with a budget. Cheap HP rings, leather/cloth from vendors, cheap Wisdom slots (like a charred guardian shield) and some kind of melee’able weapon like a Smoldering Brand are fine. Goblin Gaz ring asap (clicks at level 5). Likely ES arms, boots, eventually. Lumi Staff and at some point the epic. This is all perfectly rational if in a raiding guild getting the epic early isn’t difficult.

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Like the other posters, you have no evidence to suggest the 2 second difference in charm break is significant. If I can predict when to break charm 2 seconds early, you can too.

When multiple posters say the same thing, and none of them have evidence, it may just be a common misconception. Goblin Ring is clickable earlier than Ring of Stealthy Travel, and Goblin Ring was around on both servers a lot longer. Chardok 2.0 is one of the last patches. It's not uncommon for myths like this to form.

.......... The fact is 2sec is the gap between 2 rounds basically so in bear pits that's anywhere between 0 and 520 damage and its all RNG so you can't really plan ahead for that. With gobby ring it lets you see an extra round before taking a decision and that extra round will most likely have you change nuke level if you can wait it out. And if it turns out it's a miss you can afford to wait an extra round with gobby ring since it is instant. You can literally wait until your target/pet cannot take an extra round before pulling the trigger, that's what I mean by never losing mobs and finishing 6.5k hp mobs with a level 34 nuke.

Bear pits aren't too bad, from a chanter's perspective a torched and hasted krup knight can either miss entire rounds or pound 1200dmg in so that level of control can be highly desirable.

When you hit 60 you can go for stealthy ring because exp doesn't matter but for leveling I don't see how paying an extra 4k for 2sec delay and 35hp/mana makes any sort of sense, the stats are too low to shift the balance so the delay isn't worth it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

.......... The fact is 2sec is the gap between 2 rounds basically so in bear pits that's anywhere between 0 and 520 damage and its all RNG so you can't really plan ahead for that. With gobby ring it lets you see an extra round before taking a decision and that extra round will most likely have you change nuke level if you can wait it out. And if it turns out it's a miss you can afford to wait an extra round with gobby ring since it is instant. You can literally wait until your target/pet cannot take an extra round before pulling the trigger, that's what I mean by never losing mobs and finishing 6.5k hp mobs with a level 34 nuke.

Bear pits aren't too bad, from a chanter's perspective a torched and hasted krup knight can either miss entire rounds or pound 1200dmg in so that level of control can be highly desirable.

When you hit 60 you can go for stealthy ring because exp doesn't matter but for leveling I don't see how paying an extra 4k for 2sec delay and 35hp/mana makes any sort of sense, the stats are too low to shift the balance so the delay isn't worth it.

I completely understand what you are trying to say. You and other posters have explained it well multiple times.

You are not thinking about the problem from all of the angles, only the angle where you believe you are getting an edge of some kind.

Let me try to break down the angles you are not looking at:

1. You can also always get 100% mob XP without Goblin Ring. Please stop saying Goblin Ring does anything to help with securing a kill. You can break earlier and nuke twice, as a simple example. I understand you are talking about saving mana by waiting longer to break charm (potentially saving nuke mana), but saving mana is not the same as securing the kill.

2. The later you wait to break charm, the higher the probability of losing the mob and getting 0% XP. It's possible you end up losing more mobs with instant invis than without it, because it is tempting you towards a riskier playstyle of waiting until the last possible second. You need to determine if the increased risk of losing the mob by waiting longer to break charm is worth the potential mana saving, as each mob lost will counter multiple mobs where you may have saved some nuke mana.

3. Mobs typically do one combat round every 2 seconds. You can parse their hit rate and average damage roll. It's not difficult to do a prediction for the next round. When you've played the game long enough, you can often do this without parsing if you've fought the mob or similar mobs enough times to intuit their DPS. If you are ultra paranoid about a miss, you can always duck the 2 second invis and start it again if a miss occurs. You'll extend the charmed pet by 1 combat round that way, as both the combat round and cast time are two seconds.

4. The benefits of Ring of Stealthy Travel over Goblin Ring are as follows:
A. You get regular invis for free (more mana saving).
B. You don't need to switch targets, as Ring of Stealthy Travel is self cast. This saves a bit of time and reduces targeting errors.
C. You only need to mem invis when invising others, saving spellbook time.
D. Free clickie invis allows you to save mana and time in scenarios where you can lull some mobs and invis around the rest. You don't always need to lull every mob.

5. Druids get mana free damage options. If the mob does end up with an extra 50 HP after your first nuke, you can use Lumi Staff or ES Arms to finish it off for free. Goblin Ring is not the only way you can save mana on finishing the mob. This method can be less risky too, as it allows you to break when the mob has a bit more HP.

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. You can also always get 100% mob XP without Goblin Ring. Please stop saying Goblin Ring does anything to help with securing a kill. You can break earlier and nuke twice, as a simple example. I understand you are talking about saving mana by waiting longer to break charm (potentially saving nuke mana), but saving mana is not the same as securing the kill.

Nobody said you need instant/gobby to secure a fight. The point is securing it slightly later to not only avoid nuking twice, but to barely have to nuke at all.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. The later you wait to break charm, the higher the probability of losing the mob and getting 0% XP. It's possible you end up losing more mobs with instant invis than without it, because it is tempting you towards a riskier playstyle of waiting until the last possible second. You need to determine if the increased risk of losing the mob by waiting longer to break charm is worth the potential mana saving, as each mob lost will counter multiple mobs where you may have saved some nuke mana.

Just no. Again. You get to a point where you get a feel for if the mob can take an extra round or not and at what point you can finish it with the smallest realistic nuke. Again, losing mobs is not a thing with gobby ring.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. Mobs typically do one combat round every 2 seconds. You can parse their hit rate and average damage roll. It's not difficult to do a prediction for the next round. When you've played the game long enough, you can often do this without parsing if you've fought the mob or similar mobs enough times to intuit their DPS. If you are ultra paranoid about a miss, you can always duck the 2 second invis and start it again if a miss occurs. You'll extend the charmed pet by 1 combat round that way, as both the combat round and cast time are two seconds.

You can't sandwich a 2second cast between 2 rounds if the delay is 2sec. Just with your reaction time invis is bound to land after the next round. Why would I introduce extra guesswork and dancing around the timing when I can just do without it? Yeah you can secure mobs without gobby ring but with gobby there's no guess work or dancing around, it is basically just waiting for the right time.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

4. The benefits of Ring of Stealthy Travel over Goblin Ring are as follows:
A. You get regular invis for free (more mana saving).
B. You don't need to switch targets, as Ring of Stealthy Travel is self cast. This saves a bit of time and reduces targeting errors.
C. You only need to mem invis when invising others, saving spellbook time.
D. Free clickie invis allows you to save mana and time in scenarios where you can lull some mobs and invis around the rest. You don't always need to lull every mob.

A. Irrelevant, I'd rather use improved invis/superior camo. It is outside a fight anyway so mana doesn't matter.
B. Irrelevant. You'll have your target selected and when you break you have to switch to your ex pet anyway to root. Ring is on hotbar so I just hit F1 and hotbutton# in quick succession and its done. I know there's a macro out there but I find it unnecessary.
C. See point A.
D. See point A. I'm not risking invis breaking for 75 mana.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

5. Druids get free damage options. If the mob does end up with an extra 50 HP after your first nuke, you can use Lumi Staff or ES Arms to finish it off for free. Goblin Ring is not the only way you can save mana on finishing the mob. This method can be less risky too, as it allows you to break when the mob has a bit more HP.

Fair point if you're 46+.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nobody said you need instant/gobby to secure a fight. The point is securing it slightly later to not only avoid nuking twice, but to barely have to nuke at all.

Looking back on the thread:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The goblin ring will save you mana in every one of those charm fights and guarantee you get 100% XP from every kill. That's huge.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is also absolutely easier to not lose mobs when they're a hair away from death, that is not even up for debate.

Perhaps these quotes were just worded incorrectly, and I appreciate your clarification. I just want to be clear that the argument for instant invis is only about possible mana saving.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just no... Again, losing mobs is not a thing with gobby ring.

Unless you have done a lot of A B testing with and without Goblin Ring, you probably don't actually know how many mobs you've lost with Goblin Ring vs. without. The later you wait to break charm, the higher the chance of losing the mob. That does need to be weighed against the nuke mana saving, and nobody seems to have actually done the testing on this. Similar to gambling, people tend to weigh their wins more than their losses, so that could be clouding your judgement.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again. You get to a point where you get a feel for if the mob can take an extra round or not and at what point you can finish it with the smallest realistic nuke.

I agree. That's why you can use Ring of Stealthy Travel just as well as Goblin Ring. You can predict a few seconds ahead of time when you need to break charm, rather than relying on Goblin Ring.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't sandwich a 2second cast between 2 rounds if the delay is 2sec. Just with your reaction time invis is bound to land after the next round.

You can:

0 seconds - Mob Round
1 seconds - Start Casting Invis
2 seconds - Mob Round
3 seconds - Finish Casting Invis (Charm Break)
4 seconds - Mob Round

If you have good enough reaction time to break charm via Goblin Ring in between the two second rounds, you can time invis between them too. As you said earlier, you get a feel for how much more damage the mob can take before they die. If the mob round at 2 seconds was a miss, you can duck and recast invis.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A. Irrelevant, I'd rather use improved invis/superior camo. It is outside a fight anyway so mana doesn't matter.
B. Irrelevant. You'll have your target selected and when you break you have to switch to your ex pet anyway to root. Ring is on hotbar so I just hit F1 and hotbutton# in quick succession and its done. I know there's a macro out there but I find it unnecessary.
C. See point A.
D. See point A. I'm not risking invis breaking for 75 mana.

You can claim these benefits are irrelevant if you wish. The difference between my argument and yours is I can actually quantify the benefits of Ring of Stealthy Travel. These are easy to test yourself and see I am correct. You are currently unable to actually show you are saving more mana and losing the same or less mobs with Goblin Ring. You are also unable to show that Ring of Stealthy Travel is less efficient than Goblin Ring.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fair point if you're 46+.

Indeed. Ring of Stealthy Travel is usable at 49, so you'll have access to Lumi Staff and ES arms by then. So you can break with Ring of Stealthy Travel, not need to wait as long to break using the Goblin Ring Strategy (less risky), and still save the same mana by using Lumi Staff or ES Arms.

[loramin]

DSM, stop the theorycrafting and try to actually charm fight as a Druid (with and without the ring). You'll see very quickly why you're in the wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM, stop the theorycrafting and try to actually charm fight as a Druid (with and without the ring). You'll see very quickly why you're in the wrong.

I have done plenty of charming and fights in general. As you can see, Loramin cannot back up his theory with evidence either. Resorting to an argument from authority fallacy does not make you look good, or support your position.

If it is so obvious and easy to prove, it should be no trouble for you to do! I await your evidence.

[Snaggles]

It’s possible to simply miss-time a Goblin ring click and lose your pet or kill the other mob. The Stealthy ring adds 2 seconds to this potential for human error. In the high end game this could be a lot of hit points to burn down.

I can see why an ench, Druid, or necro (without a COS) might deal with a Stealthy ring at 60. You are doing more pet resets than low HP grinding. I think leveling up without an instant click is a huge disadvantage. Outside quad charming with my Druid for the hot minute I did, it was less important for that class since you can dot for free.

I hate the Gob ring and adore the Stealthy but instant is instant. Just use one until it servers no purpose. I’ve never had an issue selling one so this a moot point to even fellow haters.