monk ratios, primary and offhand choices - Page 42

DeathsSilkyMist · #**411** 11-23-2024, 01:18 PM

I'll keep things as simple as possible to show why Troxx is confused, and is taking what I said out of context.

Troxx likes to use the concept of variance in data as a method to discredit all data. Whenever data is provided, he will claim variance has made it unusable in some manner. This variance could be in the parse itself, like a parse was lucky or too short. This variance could be in mob variety, where you must parse 100 mobs before he will recognize a pattern.

He will basically keep asking you to get more data, and then claim it isn't good enough once you've collected the data. He uses this tactic because eventually you get to a point where you cannot collect enough data to satisfy his constantly moving goalposts. At that point he can pretend to be the victor, and move on. This is due to his ego not allowing him to admit he was wrong.

If you take a look at this post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=402 you will see that I got the same DPS results from a 3 minute parse as I did with two sets of 10 minute parses across two different mobs. The chances of this happening purely by luck is small. This means the average DPS from my data is probably correct for both weapon sets. That is the context for the quote below, where I was looking at the normal distribution average. The "effect" I was referring to can be found here https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=409 :

Quote:

For the vast majority of mobs, I doubt you will see this effect in any significant way, as my data is comparing a level 5 and a level 50. AoW is one exception to the rule for sure, which everybody has always agreed.

However, it is also possible that you can get a lucky or unlucky parse in any single fight. I was talking about this earlier in the thread:

Quote:

It is true. If you fight 2 mobs, you'll probably get 1 below average fight, and 1 above average fight with 2h. This averages out to the middle. This is why you always pick whichever weapons have the better average when killing a lot of mobs.

When you are fighting 1 mob that spawns every 7 days, you don't want to get the below average fight. Unless your guild wipes and is able to try again, you won't get a second fight to average it out.

That is why I provided the second set of parses, to ensure that my 3 minute parse wasn't significantly different from the average.

Troxx doesn't seem to realize that two things can be true at once. You can recognize that the normal distribution of DPS between Weapon A and Weapon B is similar. You can also recognize that you will get individual fights that are above or below the average with either weapon. If Weapon A does 30 DPS, and weapon B does 30 DPS, you want to pick the weapon that is less likely to get an unlucky parse. That is all I was saying earlier.

Now, back to the conversation:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've given data showing Troxx is wrong about Corudoth. It is a valid parse target:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=402

I explained to him why he is seeing these results from Corudoth:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=409

If Troxx wants to provide parses of different mobs using the same 1h and 2h setup that puts my conclusion into question, I would love to see it!

Troxx · #**412** 11-23-2024, 02:25 PM

I have gone through your post. Then again, and over and over and over trying to figure out where your cognitive disconnect is. I could be wrong in interpreting you ... but your specific choice of words may provide a clue. It may be that you don't understand how ac works and influences damage output (both mob damage output against you and your damage output against the mob).

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Troxx doesn't seem to understand the damage formula on P99. In it's most simpled form, it looks like this:

(Damage Roll * Mitigation Offset) + Damage bonus = Damage Dealt

Neither Damage Roll or Damage bonus are modified in any way during combat, regardless of the mob you are fighting. Mitigation offset is the end result from how the game uses AC, level, etc., to offset your damage rolls.

The mitigation offset is what's allowing me to do 50 DPS to Corudoth instead of 30 DPS. Corudoth has less AC, is lower level, etc. Corudoth's mitigation offset is lower than the Giants. We could easily say AoW would take less than 30 DPS, as AoW has a higher mitigation offset.

Lets zoom in on this:

Quote:

(Damage Roll * Mitigation Offset) + Damage bonus = Damage Dealt

This line implies you think there is a set mitigation offset. This is not exactly correct. Damage rolls happen on the part of the person doing the offense. The actual damage done (other than the damage bonus which is flatly added any time you hit) is modified by strength. I think most of us understand this.

Point is there is no flat 'mitigation offset' it is dynamic/fluid. Things you do to raise your attack will put the odds more in your favor. Things you do to lower your mobs ac will again put the odds more in your favor. But each swing of your weapons is another roll of the dice. Mob AC, when very high, will push your average DI per hit lower. But again, every single swing is a brand new roll of the dice.

So no Corudoth does not have a flat mitigation value.
Vindi does not have a set mitigation value.

Parses simply imply that Corudoth is trivial to a high level player. That's why the absolute dps numbers Snaggle gave you were so ludicriously high on Bloodmaw (level 20 and 50k hp). It is also why ALL of the values were too unrealistically close together. Bloodmaw is a trivial mob. Corudoth is also a trivial mob. Comparisons vs Mendrak are shockingly similar - implying that for a raid geared player he is also falling within the trivial range and giving the raid geared person unrealistic results/returns.

None of those mobs are a challenge.

Did that make any sense or am I just wasting my time? I've spend ludricous amounts of time parsing ac defensively in the past. The interplay between ac and attack is a lot more fluid/dynamic than say ... a warrior clicking defensive immediately removing a set percentage from the damage interval of a monsters dps output (defensive disc does not reduced the DB of a mob). Bear in mind that DB in this instance is the "base damage". Though you can think of this as the "damage bonus" and it operates similarly it is not quite the same thing.

Mob hit = DB (base damage) + DI (1-20 depending on each individual roll of the dice and deflected downward by the armor class value of the player being hit).

Again ... I am sincerely trying to help you understand a thing.

If the above at all made any sense you will understand why performance on a level 5 green con turtle with 200,000 hp is not going to be predictive of performance on a level 70 mob with Velious era raid ac.

bcbrown · #**413** 11-23-2024, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A sidetrack but the trick to ranger on a budget is fearing as long as you can (WL tigeraptors near Skyshrine will take you to 49). Bow rot stuff after that or 45+ with a tolan bracer. HK is great with 2k hp blues.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I found fear kiting to be unbelieveably boring. I did that for a while in Iceclad. I don't play the ranger much, he's just a change of pace for when I get tired of my caster mains.

DeathsSilkyMist · #**414** 11-23-2024, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have gone through your post. Then again, and over and over and over trying to figure out where your cognitive disconnect is. I could be wrong in interpreting you ... but your specific choice of words may provide a clue.

I agree everybody on these forums isn't perfect. I will sometimes type things out poorly, you will sometimes type things out poorly. I will sometimes read things wrong. You will sometimes read things wrong. A little bit of understanding goes a long way, and can help avoid the rock slinging sessions that break out, or the strawmen that get created. Context can be difficult to preserve in text messages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So no Corudoth does not have a flat mitigation value.
Vindi does not have a set mitigation value.

This is a perfect example of you misreading, or not reading everything I've said. I never said there is a flat mitigation value.

Quote:

(Damage Roll * Mitigation Offset) + Damage bonus = Damage Dealt

Neither Damage Roll or Damage bonus are modified in any way during combat, regardless of the mob you are fighting. Mitigation offset is the end result from how the game uses AC, level, etc., to offset your damage rolls.

Mitigation Offset is the end result of the game comparing the player's AC, Level, etc. to the mob's. After the game determines all of that, it simply multiplies the Damage Roll by the final value that is the Mitigation Offset. If I was level 5, Corudoth would indeed take less damage from me (assuming I could still do 55 DPS at level 5), because his Mitigation Offset would be reducing my DPS more. I never said Mitigation Offset was some fixed constant value of X, where X is different between mobs. Mitigation Offset adjusts based on AC, level, etc, but the adjustment is equally applied to both 1h and 2h weapons. The difference between mobs is going to be their specific Mitigation Offset based on your Level, AC, etc., compared to their Level, AC, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Parses simply imply that Corudoth is trivial to a high level player. That's why the absolute dps numbers Snaggle gave you were so ludicriously high on Bloodmaw (level 20 and 50k hp). It is also why ALL of the values were too unrealistically close together. Bloodmaw is a trivial mob. Corudoth is also a trivial mob. Comparisons vs Mendrak are shockingly similar - implying that for a raid geared player he is also falling within the trivial range and giving the raid geared person unrealistic results/returns.

This is incorrect, due to your improper understanding of how the formulas work on P99. Can you provide a math formula for how a mob becomes "trivial", and thus DPS between the 1h and 2h weapons normalizes across Corudoth and the FM Giants? I am genuinely curious how you think this works.

Troxx · #**415** 11-23-2024, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is a perfect example of you misreading, or not reading everything I've said. I never said there is a flat mitigation value.

Fair enough. I was searching for a reason why this discussion is/was beyond your comprehension and thought I might have found it. If that is not the case, I apologize for misinterpreting your words.

So the answer is that this discussion is just beyond your comprehension?

Good to know.

DeathsSilkyMist · #**416** 11-23-2024, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fair enough. I was searching for a reason why this discussion is/was beyond your comprehension and thought I might have found it. If that is not the case, I apologize for misinterpreting your words.

So the answer is that this discussion is just beyond your comprehension?

Good to know.

As you can see, Troxx cannot rebut what I have said.

He cannot explain the math formulas for how a mob becomes "trivial".

He cannot explain the math formulas for how a mob becomes "non-trivial".

Simply applying a nebulous term like "trivial" to a mob is a lazy way of waving away data.

Anyway, let's get back to the discussion:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've given data showing Troxx is wrong about Corudoth. It is a valid parse target:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=402

I explained to him why he is seeing these results from Corudoth:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=409

If Troxx wants to provide parses of different mobs using the same 1h and 2h setup that puts my conclusion into question, I would love to see it!