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#401
11-23-2024, 03:54 AM
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Constantly. Let your data stand. If it is good, it will show up. If it is crap, it will show up. At this point I don't think anyone but you cares. Saying "I just wish to add factual facts to factually factificate the facts" to every post does not increase ypur standing in this discussion. See above. | |||
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#402
11-23-2024, 05:43 AM
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A level 5 to a level 52 is not a valid parse target. I’ve spent an hour or so messing with bloodmaw who’s level 20 vs my 60 ranger. Aside from calculating an exact DW swing chance all that data was garbage. Two epics parsed very close to ntov weapons. In reality they aren’t in the same zip code.
A level 52 parse offers no usable data save for people trying to optimize a Vox/Naggy alt. DSM, level your monk and ignore the people. Then do proper parses at 60 on literally anything else. I will say, nobody thinks fist/SoS is viable in 2024 for good reason. It has not surprised a raid meter…ever. Where as among normal mortals a kunark staff 60 monk has, especially for a tryhard with a timed left mouse-click. | ||
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#403
11-23-2024, 06:28 AM
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From 7/31/2023 on Bloodmaw per the above:
Earthcaller/Swiftwind = 74,012 over 688 seconds = 107dps average Vyemm whip/swiftwind = 71,059 over 597 seconds = 119 dps Vyemm whip/claw of Lightning = 71,542 over 576 seconds = 124 dps Meljeldin = 74,358 over 605 seconds = 122 dps Earthcaller & Tash stick = 50,571 over 612 seconds = 82dps (686 slash landed / 511 crush landed = .74489 ratio) I guess if anything this thread has annoyed me to the point I’ll gear my 45 monk and push him to 60. Your last SK one did that and now I have a 60 sk. Leveling another melee is cause for an intervention…but all for the quest of “science”. I’m two fights from an epic so I suppose it’s a worthy effort. | ||
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#404
11-23-2024, 09:17 AM
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I'm not being sarcastic! LET'S DIVE IN BOYS! Quote:
Part b) Not necessarily the case. The last time I went and played around with Bloodmaw on my warrior I was giddy with joy watching the parse-o-meter. I had just won a Frostreaver (42/43). I had done the napkin math and knew it would be good for holding aggro. i wanted to know just how much more damage I would be doing now. For the first 5 minutes I had gotten exquisitely lucky with a much higher % of hits ... much higher hit averages and a disproportionate amount of triple attacks. I was super excited at the data I was seeing. By minute 6 that dps-o-meter started to get progressively more impotent. It ended up settling on a dps value towards the bottom of Bloodmaw's hp bar that was a good 25-30% lower than where it had started. For the record, the end results were not disappointing - it was still a very big jump in DPS from the dual wield setup I was using at the time. Clearly this was not average or to be expected. It was an anomaly. Had I cut that parse off at the 3 minute park instead of persisting through until the end I would have walked away with some very bad assumptions. I didn't cut the parse off though. I learned hard lessons over a decade ago with my defensive parsing. I had run all the way to GD just to see a comparison so I figured why not just kill the damn thing - all 20,000hp of it. I do not want to squash the euphoria you're feeling right now and discourage you from continuing to stay more engaged with actual data gathering. Getting yourself back out there should never be discouraged. Data is great. More is always better. More will not always change the results, but sometimes it does. I fear for your ego if you truly do feel that the data sets you gathered were so similar that you think you have now proven that you never really need a parse longer than 3 minutes to know the truth. This is why I encourage you to download gamparse. It really is a lot of fun. Collect your data in the background and let that little yellow-text HUD give you consistent dopamine hits from instant feedback. The more you watch what is happening in real time the more you will realize (especially if you 2h much) that the random number generator is a fickle mistress. Last night I tanked the Scout Charisa giant on my warrior. ZERO procs the whole fight. In one previous fight I averaged 10 ppm (procs per minute). In most fights I get the average of 3ppm (2 main 1 offhand with 255 dex). Last night I got zero. Quote:
WHOA NELLY! Hold your horses there muchacho .... Rather than just say "no you are wrong" (because you actually are actually .... very ... EXQUISITELY ... EXTREMELY wrong here), I'd rather take you by the hand and gently lead you to the correct answer. Heaven help you if you cannot follow the logic train here - failure to understand this concept would be imply you are actually beyond hope. I legitimately believe you are smart enough - let us dive in! Snaggles posted: Quote:
https://wiki.project1999.com/Bloodmaw Derakor the Vindicator is a level 70 red con raid mob: https://wiki.project1999.com/Derakor_the_Vindicator Rather than just say "well snaggles can do 122dps with his https://wiki.project1999.com/Meljeldin,_Bane_of_Giants to a green level 20 mob with 50,000 hp but only 73dps with the same weapon on Vindi ... well that means that whatever other weapon I parsed with on the level 20 50,000hp mob will also be scaled similarly so I can predict the preperformance of ANY weapons setup on Vindi (proportionally) by simply testing that same weapon combination on Bloodmaw. How easy!" Start with the questions. -The question of WHY can Snaggles manage to put out 122dps on the green mob -WHY is that number so much higher on the level 20 green mob and so much lower than that on the level 70 raid mob? Well, part of that is accuracy. Snaggles is significantly higher level than one of them and significantly lower than the other. From an accuracy standpoint I will agree that the degree to which you are accurate should be the same proportionally across weapon setups unless there is a difference in weapon skill caps for any of the weapons or setups in question. For Snaggles, this is not the case so we can assume that he would land/miss as many hits with his 2hs as he would with his dual wield. The other part? That is the armor class of the mob. -The higher the armor class the more hits are deflected to the average. -The lower your damage intervals are deflected, the greater the proportion of the damage that you do will be from the damage bonus. -Vindi has SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER ac than Bloodmaw. -The greater proportion of baseline damage you ARE doing to the mob from damage bonus, the higher the relative importance of damage bonus. If that is the case, let us go back to snaggles parses: Quote:
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https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1 https://wiki.project1999.com/Meljeldin,_Bane_of_Giants This weapon has a delay of 38. At level 60 a delay of 38 gives you a damage bonus of 32. This damage bonus *chance* of 32 is applied every 3.8 seconds. https://wiki.project1999.com/Silver_Whip_of_Rage This weapon has a delay of 19. At level 60 a delay of 19 gives you a flat damage bonus of 11 (all 1handers do). This damage bonus *chance* of 11 is applied at precisely half the speed of the 2hander ... every 1.9 seconds. For every 3.8 seconds (unhasted) the 2hander applies a damage bonus chance potential of 32. In the same exact time, the 1hander applies a damage bonus potential of 22. That is nearly 1/3 less. Now for a level 20 mob (trivial compared to the player level) with AC values more similar to that which is seen on group xp trash from kunark, the combinations of the 13/19 Vyemm whip RATIO and the 14/18 RATIO seem to be such that they overcame this dmg bonus advantage that the 45/38 2hander had. But mob AC on Vindi is substantial enough to drop an eye-popping 122 dps down to something more like 73 which you might otherwise expect from the 2hander. Can you not see how and why the 2hander is going to pull ahead? And bear in mind that I am making the MASSIVE assumption that Snaggles has 41% worn haste other than https://wiki.project1999.com/Claw_of_Lightning. If he does not have another 41% haste item and is, say, falling back on a 34% haste belt or 36% haste cloak and has the PoSky haste cloak for those parses .... 84 or 86% combined haste vs 91% combined haste alone is enough to close the gap seen on Bloodmaw completely. If he had solid ench haste, then it would be irrelevant. But this is why we have to control for or at least clearly define all variables. Quote:
Heck, the above situation is the PERFECT example. https://wiki.project1999.com/Corudoth That's a LEVEL 5 turtle with 200k hp. You have collected data sets that imply that offensive parses on this level 5 turtle are very shockingly similar to an XP group (relatively high level) xp mob in Frontier Mountains. Those fights happened. You have the numbers. You even video taped it (why you insist on doing this is beyond me - I do not recall anyone ever asking for video evidence). I will agree that the parses are similar enough that I am comfortable using "napkin math" to then infer that dps done vs Corudoth with a particular setup will be similarly ... VERY SIMILAR to what you might expect off that giant in FM. Where napkin math runs into problems is if you blindly assume that the same proportionality exists between Corudoth and ... Vindi, Avatar of War, Kael arena mobs (notoriously high ac for their level) etc etc. There is value in napkin math. But when napkin math is used improperly you're going to get stupid irrelevant results. This was the problem with you using napkin math of you soloing a damn level 40 frog in seb. You solo'd a level 40 frog in seb using dots. You did actually do that amount of dps to that mob between you and your pet. That was fact. You had the logs. You had the videos. YOU DID A THING. You and your pet did enough damage in a unit of time that you knew you had done XYZ dps. You then said "hey shamans can be expected to do XYZ dps all the time and in all circumstances" ... and we were like ... 'uh no, that's not how it works'. The conversation was regarding who was going to be the best 4th in a group that already had a cleric and 2 charming enchanters. Mobs would be dying quickly. Those spells aren't exactly quick to cast and you were not actually going to average the same thing in a fast 20 second or less fight that you had the luxury of doing when it was just you (and only you and your pet) with the full hp bar of the mob to play with. Necromancers feel this pain as well. Dots in this era are just not very cool for xp groups where mobs die pretty quickly. "Napkin math" is hugely problematic when it is divorced from reality and the person using it is to hyper-focused on the napkin math results to step back and think clearly. This has been a consistent problem for you DSM. I am not making fun of, mocking, or trying to disparage you right now DSM. For once I actually am not. I am trying to give you honest feedback. This is a problem for you. Whether you have the clarity of mind to see/acknowledge this and have some personal growth ... whether you just get angsty/pissy and double down ... well that is up to you. "Napkin math" is math. IT IS MATH. But it is math that takes a known set of variables and from there makes attempts to extrapolate and theorize - to predict outcomes in other situations. It is a wonderful thing. This phenomenon (whether we are using math at all) is one of the things we as humans can do that separates us from lower organisms. Other members of the animal kingdom do it too to varying degrees but we humans do it best. So napkin math. Maybe this works out. Maybe it does not. In the case of weapon performance in project 99 on a level 20 or a level 5 green mob with low ac vs weapon performance on a level 70+ with very high ac? No. You have to understand actual game mechanics and understand the breakpoints. Does this make sense or am is it going over your head? I'm not trying to be snarky or cynical ... this is just a really long post and if I've lost you I am willing to patiently circle back around. I am confident Bcbrown is following every word I'm saying and giggling at how un-erudite my verbiage is. He is mathematically a whole heck of a lot more literate than I am. Quote:
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Point is if you were to take your 52 monk and do vindi a few times at level 52, you would probably see that gap widen enough that fist + SoS would way outperform IFS + fistweaving. At level 52. That will change as you level up. 52: Epic fist dmg bonus 9 - IFS dmg bonus 18 53: Epic fist dmg bonus 9 - IFS dmg bonus 19 54: Epic fist dmg bonus 9 - IFS dmg bonus 20 55: Epic fist dmg bonus 10 - IFS dmg bonus 24 56: Epic fist dmg bonus 10 - IFS dmg bonus 25 57: Epic fist dmg bonus 10 - IFS dmg bonus 27 58: Epic fist dmg bonus 11 - IFS dmg bonus 29 59: Epic fist dmg bonus 11 - IFS dmg bonus 31 60: Epic fist dmg bonus 11 - IFS dmg bonus 34 -Between now and 60 your epic fist dmg bonus will increase by about 23%. -Between now and 60 your IFS dmg bonus will increase by 89% -At level 60 you will receive mainhand triple attack. 100% of your non-fistweaving strikes are now subject to a 3rd potential strike. When dual wielding a big chunk of your damage will receive no bonus at all. Quote:
You showed (and fairly thoroughly) that a level 52 monk with your gear on these mobs will do more lazy autoattack dps with your specific dual wield setup compared to the IFS specifically. I do not find your results shocking at all. I have run the parses at 60. I know the game and have been aware that you are still at the level that a very fast weapon such as epic fist holds an advantage over the very slow IFS - it's damage bonus has not yet matured. It has the same damage bonus potential at level 52 that you would see on a 1 handed weapon with a mainhand delay of 20. Epic fist has a delay of 16. Had you compared it to the Tstaff? Tstaff would have won. I am pretty confident in that. If you have a buddy who will lend you a Tstaff at level 52 to give it a whirl that would be great and I would happily buy you a beer if my prediction is wrong. You also showed that if you are not lazy the IFS still wins by using a known trick to sneak in an offhand punch. Do most monks do it? I did at some times, I did not at other times. I was more inclined to do it when I was soloing vs chain pulling in a group. APM mental fatigue is a thing for most of us. Thank you for getting parses. Now we can circle back around to: Quote:
For the monk that is only hitting from behind and being a dps class. If you want to are happy to play lazy and leave easy dps on the board, just use your dual wield. If you are soloing or tanking, IFS is the clear winner. You'll take a lot less damage over time while at the same time having the potential to do more dps than your dual wield setup. Cool beans. Now level to 60 and watch the world you now know and have parsed flip on it's head. That's why I said: Quote:
Nearly everyone is working on their N'th alt ... many of which have endgame velious twink gear.
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#405
11-23-2024, 10:28 AM
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That’s a helluva post Troxx. Thanks for taking the time [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Yea all testing had similar self buffs and 91% haste (sky cloak and dragon slaying gaunts). I snared it near velks and would zone when it turned to flee and reset. The primal is the only notable new addition, these were non wolf/avatar parses. Was hoping to opine percent increase more than top figures. https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Blerv | ||
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Last edited by Snaggles; 11-23-2024 at 10:33 AM..
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#406
11-23-2024, 10:47 AM
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I do appreciate Troxx's lengthy response. I am not being sarcastic. The only thing I will say is Troxx lies a lot about me in that post, as usual. It is hard to trust a liars word on anything. But I must try to help out Troxx and the reader by giving Troxx a reality check.
Troxx has made various claims over the years on these forums, and thinks he has hurt my credibility with them. His strawman version of me he talks to is built on these claims. Because of this, he doesn't want to admit he was wrong about any of his claims. It will crumble his strawman attacks against me, make him wrong in those threads retroactively, and make him look even less credible. In the past he has claimed Corudoth is a bad parse target, and thus my data wasn't good enough to support my claim in another thread. This is his most common strategy. Try to throw out all evidence so he doesn't need to try and gather his own. Then the discussion is just his word against another's. Lets just look at one snippet of this long post: Quote:
(Damage Roll * Mitigation Offset) + Damage bonus = Damage Dealt Neither Damage Roll or Damage bonus are modified in any way during combat, regardless of the mob you are fighting. Mitigation offset is the end result from how the game uses AC, level, etc., to offset your damage rolls. The mitigation offset is what's allowing me to do 50 DPS to Corudoth instead of 30 DPS. Corudoth has less AC, is lower level, etc. Corudoth's mitigation offset is lower than the Giants. We could easily say AoW would take less than 30 DPS, as AoW has a higher mitigation offset. The one scenario where the differences will change more significantly between 1h and 2h in a parse is if the Damage Roll gets reduced close to the minumum possible damage via mitigation offset. For example, lets take two weapons: 2h weapon 100 average damage roll 30 damage bonus 1h weapon 55 average damage roll 10 damage bonus Attacks 2x as fast In this scenario, the 1h will match the 2h, as it has 65 x 2 = 130 damage, which is the same as the 2h. If a mob reduced the damage rolls by 80% via their mitigation offset: 2h weapon 100 average damage roll * 0.2 = 20 damage 30 damage bonus 1h weapon 55 average damage roll * 0.2 = 11 damage 10 damage bonus Attacks 2x as fast Now you have 50 2h damage vs 44 1h damage. When your damage roll starts getting too low, then you will see an offset, and Damage bonus becomes a bigger factor for overall DPS. This is the argument made for AoW. His mitigation offset is so high that you will see this effect. For the vast majority of mobs, I doubt you will see this effect in any significant way, as my data is comparing a level 5 and a level 50. AoW is one exception to the rule for sure, which everybody has always agreed. I say all of this because I want to caution people that Troxx is trying to make himself look good, and smooth over past errors first and foremost. Objectivity is always in second place. This obviously doesn't mean everything he says is wrong when it comes to the game (Troxx's typical lies about me are obviously wrong), but Troxx's latest post shows he still can't admit Corudoth is a good parse target, and thus his objectivity is being clouded in the post. Any conclusions related to this incorrect assumption are also off. I've given plenty more data than Troxx has in this thread. He should return the favor and gather evidence to support his positions. Sadly I don't think he will though, he never does.
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 11-23-2024 at 11:13 AM..
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#407
11-23-2024, 11:20 AM
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We see what we have always seen ... a closed mind. Snaggles flat out told you: Quote:
Data/numbers given. (not by Troxx) Experiences/data/numbers ignored. (not from Troxx) Quote:
Oh well. Back to post 393: Quote:
Sorry guys. I tried.
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#408
11-23-2024, 11:31 AM
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See? When I call Troxx out on an error he made with Corudoth, he goes back to trolling immediately. He will not admit he is wrong about anything. The one with the closed mind is him.
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https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=402 I explained to him why he is seeing these results from Corudoth: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=409 If Troxx wants to provide parses of different mobs using the same 1h and 2h setup that puts my conclusion into question, I would love to see it! Until then, we must assume Troxx is simply trying to avoid admitting he was wrong. Again.
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 11-23-2024 at 11:39 AM..
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#409
11-23-2024, 11:42 AM
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One thing I need to address:
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Remember? Quote:
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Why have you flip flopped? Back then it was concern about being unlucky on those not every-day mobs. You didn't seem to care about which setup was actually better ... only the concern for getting unlucky. Well ... it really feels like THOSE MOBS are now the precisely THE MOBS you are trying to write off by ignoring the fact that it is on those mobs where the superior dmg bonus of 2handers will be most effective. For the record, IFS and epic fist mainhand hit equal dmg bonus potential at level 55. By level 56 the IFS takes the lead ... and that lead only gets bigger each level beyond that to 60. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Oh well. Maybe one day you'll hit level 60, have mainhand triple attack, be at the level where 2h dmg bonus has fully matured, and realize that at level 60 the dual wield combination you currently own has no advantage under any circumstances or against any mob compared to the cheap EC tunnel IFS. Or maybe you'll stay 52 and still not have known that there is a message when FD fails except for the fact that a bunch of people had to tell you otherwise (after leveling a monk to 50+ and a SK to 60) *CHECK SIGNATURE*
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#410
11-23-2024, 11:48 AM
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Troxx didn't read my posts, and is now grasping for straws, claiming I flip flopped on something. His logic makes no sense here, as he doesn't understand context. Please explain it further. I am sorry you got so excited with your trolling you lost all reason and ability to read.
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