monk ratios, primary and offhand choices - Page 40

#391

11-22-2024, 03:32 PM

DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline

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Troxx has lost the debate by default because he refuses to proivde evidence for his claims. He is certainly entitled to whatever opinion he wants. Just be aware Troxx cannot back up his opinions. Take what he says with a grain of salt whenever he trying to claim them as fact.

At least he finally admitted that Epic Fist + SoS isn't as bad as he used to believe at level 52 compared to IFS. I consider that progress!

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#392

11-22-2024, 04:08 PM

bcbrown

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Location: Kedge Keep

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Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am saying 1h is not always worse than 2h.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My point has always been 1h is not always outclassed by by 2h.

For what it's worth, I think you've supported this point quite well. You've convinced me that while leveling through the 50s it's worth parsing both 1h and 2h to see how they compare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As it stands - https://youtu.be/tVkVNorTzIQ this video shows Epic Fist + SoS beating IFS DPS-wise without fistweaving at level 52. DPS was matched with fistweaving.

However, you keep saying stuff like "DPS was matched with fistweaving" that is clearly untrue. There was a 3% difference in DPS between 2h fistweaving and dual weaving in your video -- 31.5 vs 30.67. Your evidence suggests that 2h with fistweaving has higher DPS than dual wielding.

#393

11-22-2024, 04:21 PM

shovelquest shovelquest is offline

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In real physics, and everquset parsing... does it work like you just do a thing like 1000 times, take the average.. and then say "this is how physics works based on those averages"

or do they like, do something more accuraute?

I never really understood this level of intelligence.. and don't understand numbers, so Im wondering, do I have science correct here? or does science make everything based on mathematics?

#394

11-22-2024, 04:23 PM

bcbrown

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Quote:

Originally Posted by shovelquest [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What a fascinating question. Hopefully I'll have some time later today to give the answer it deserves.

#395

11-22-2024, 04:27 PM

DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For what it's worth, I think you've supported this point quite well. You've convinced me that while leveling through the 50s it's worth parsing both 1h and 2h to see how they compare.

Agreed!

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It was close enough. I don't think people are getting confused when I say DPS was matched when there is less than a 1 DPS difference. I posted the results, and people can see which number is slightly higher if they really want to draw that conclusion. With less than a 1 DPS difference I'd just go for whichever weapon is more fun for you.

And remember, not everybody fistweaves. Epic + SoS beat IFS by 500 damage without fistweaving at level 52. There are players like Toxigen who refuse to do it. They will want to know which weapon set is better without fistweaving.

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#396

11-22-2024, 04:28 PM

shovelquest shovelquest is offline

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What a fascinating question. Hopefully I'll have some time later today to give the answer it deserves.

I would love this!

#397

11-22-2024, 06:58 PM

bcbrown

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Location: Kedge Keep

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Quote:

Originally Posted by shovelquest [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would love this!

I started a separate thread so it doesn't get mixed up in everything else going on in this thread: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s....php?p=3708730

Hopefully what I wrote is understandable! There's a lot to cover and I didn't want to write too much. I didn't quite get to "you just do a thing like 1000 times, take the average" but can cover that in a follow-up post.

#398

11-22-2024, 10:17 PM

Snaggles

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I was looking at Rath Mtn hill giants, but turns out I can't kill them with 1hs/dw on my ranger, only 2h. I think I'll try logging some fights in Cazic Thule pyramid - it'll be more than half green, but it'll at least be a good dry run.

A sidetrack but the trick to ranger on a budget is fearing as long as you can (WL tigeraptors near Skyshrine will take you to 49). Bow rot stuff after that or 45+ with a tolan bracer. HK is great with 2k hp blues.

#399

11-23-2024, 01:53 AM

DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline

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Did some longer parses. I am using a level 52 Monk. Here are the TLDR takeaways first:

1. 3 minute parses are similar to 10 minute parses. It is incorrect to assume that a 3 minute parse is too inaccurate for DPS.

2. Corudoth is a perfectly valid target for DPS comparisons between weapons. The difference between compared weapons is the same across all mobs. You don't need to wander across Norrath parsing random mobs to compare weapons. You only parse different mobs if you want to see how much their mitigation values offset your DPS. The mitigation offset will affect the compared weapons equally.

3. Using math is perfectly valid and accurate. Using the term "napkin math" to claim math isn't useable is nonsense.

https://youtu.be/Ub0bfwyKpE0 - 10 min FM Giant Parse

https://youtu.be/YXh1lQyRZ_A - 10 min Corudoth Parse

https://youtu.be/tVkVNorTzIQ - Original 3 min FM Giant Parse

==========================
2h IFS parse on Giants.
==========================

Note that this parse ran longer than the 1h parse. I stopped parsing the 2h starting at this message, so the parses between 1h and 2h are of equal length. Feel free to use the extra values for checking damage roll distributions if you want.

Quote:

[Fri Nov 22 18:07:02 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 112

16964 damage over 553 seconds = 30.68 DPS with fistweaving

15023 damage over 553 seconds = 27.5 DPS without fistweaving

207 punch swings / 297 crush swings = 70% dual wield chance.

==========================
1h Epic Fist + SoS Giant Parse
==========================

16712 damage over 552 seconds = 30.28 DPS
305 crush swings / 730 punch swings = 42% chance to dual wield.

==========================
2h IFS parse Corudoth
==========================

31414 damage over 553 seconds = 56.8 DPS with fistweaving

27455 damage over 553 seconds = 49.6 DPS without fistweaving

==========================
1h Epic + SoS Parse Corudoth
==========================

30819 damage over 553 seconds = 55.7 DPS

==========================

Against the Giants, I got 30.28 DPS via the Epic + SoS, and 30.68 DPS via IFS with fistweaving. On my 3 minute parse I got 30.67 from Epic + SoS, and 31.5 DPS via IFS with fistweaving.

Against Corudoth, I got 55.7 DPS via the Epic + SoS, and 56.8 DPS via IFS with fistweaving.

Without Fistweaving I got 27.5 DPS from IFS on the Giants, and 49.6 DPS on Corudoth.

As you can see, the difference between Epic + SoS and IFS is the same on both Corudoth and the Giants. The only difference is the DPS values on both weapon sets went up. This is because Corudoth is lower level, and thus you do more damage.

This makes sense, because at the end of the day the damage formula can be simplified to:

(Rolled Damage * Mitigation Offset) + Damage Bonus = Damage Dealt.

The Rolled Damage and Damage Bonus values remain the same between Corudoth and Giants. The Mitigation Offset changes based on the Mitigation variables like AC, level difference, etc., between the Giants and Corudoth.

==========================

IFS (Primary) Min Damage = 22
IFS (Primary) Max Damage = 171
IFS (Primary) Average Damage = (171 + 22) / 2 = 96.5

297 IFS swings * 96.5 damage = 28660.5 Damage

Epic Fist (Offhand) Min Damage = 1
Epic Fist (Offhand) Max Damage = 35
Epic Fist (Offhand) Average Damage = (1 + 35) / 2 = 18

207 Epic Punch Fistweaves * 18 damage = 3726 Damage

IFS + Fistweaving Damage = 32,386.5 Total Damage

---------------------

Epic Fist (Primary) Min Damage = 10
Epic Fist (Primary) Max Damage = 44
Epic Fist (Primary) Average Damage = (44 + 10) / 2 = 27

730 Epic Fist swings * 27 damage = 19710 Damage

SoS (Offhand) Min Damage = 1
SoS (Offhand) Max Damage = 68
SoS (Offhand) Average Damage = (1 + 35) / 2 = 34.5

305 SoS swings * 34.5 damage = 10522 Damage

Epic Fist + SoS Damage = 30232.5 Total Damage

You can see the same pattern in the pure averages as the parse. Epic Fist + SoS does 30232 Damage, and IFS does 28660 Damage without fistweaving. This is the same outcome as the parse, where the IFS without fistweaving does less damage. When adding the 3726 Damage from fistweaving, IFS pulls ahead slightly.

As you can see, Epic Fist + SoS does better than IFS without fistweaving at level 52. IFS pulls ahead a bit with fistweaving, assuming you do it all the time and correctly.

This is why you should parse 1h and 2h weapons before assuming 2h is better, especially at lower levels when the damage bonus on 2h is smaller.

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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; 11-23-2024 at 01:57 AM..

#400

11-23-2024, 03:44 AM

Jimjam

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Very interesting to see the 2hs (no fist weave) does a consistent circa 90% of the damage of dw in each scenario.