monk ratios, primary and offhand choices

[Duik]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you insist on trolling and spamming threads, at least try to get better at it. You've been doing this for years, and people still don't care about your nonsense.

Dont respond then shit for brains.

[Duik]

Would constantly swapping 1hb to 2hb mitigate the highs/lows that are inherant in any randomized data set?

I think everyone is just over thinking it. If the difference between living/dying on a blue and winning/losing raids comes down to deciding between 2 sets of great weapons then we have already lost.

Again DSM. If it is simple stuff it should be simple for you to simply explain what you mean. Even to us simple folk. As I am sure you think of most of us. Below you. Stupid. Simple.

Go!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dont respond then shit for brains.

Ah yes, the classic "Another poster made me troll!" argument. Please take some responsibility for your own actions. I didn't force you to post nonsense. You made yourself look foolish willingly, as you have done for years.

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again DSM. If it is simple stuff it should be simple for you to simply explain what you mean. Even to us simple folk. As I am sure you think of most of us. Below you. Stupid. Simple.

I don't look down on anybody. If you treat me with respect, I respond in kind. If you attack me, I defend myself. If your feelings get hurt when I defend myself from your nonsense, then stop attacking me. It's fully within your control.

I never claimed to be perfect. I am just explaining the game with data and math. If I get something wrong, I correct it and move on. Having a dialogue is how people work out ideas and come to the correct conclusion, regardless of who is right.

If you stopped trying to shut down conversations via trolling, we'd get more answers finished on these forums.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah figured it was just experience and parsing that lets you know when 1h beats 2h.

As I've been saying for years, and repeated in this thread, bring evidence to back up your position. I am glad you agree with me!

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would constantly swapping 1hb to 2hb mitigate the highs/lows that are inherant in any randomized data set? !

Since you're one of my favorite posters on this site, I spent some time to explore this question. Short answer is no. All that matters in terms of highs/lows away from the expected DPS is the total number of swings. The more times you swing, the more likely that the actual DPS is "close" to the expected/average DPS.

All that swapping between 1h and 2h does is give you a result somewhere between the result with only-1h and only-2h.

Let's say you have a 1H weapon set and a 2H weapon that both have the same expected DPS. Let's say the delays are such that you'd have half as many swings with 2h as 1H per minute. Let's say you're soloing an evenly matched mob such that all 20 values of the damage interval are equally likely. Let's say that you're confident you'll win the fight as long as you do at least half the expected DPS. Let's say the fight lasts long enough that there's an 99.94% chance of doing between half and twice the expected DPS with the 1handers. In that scenario, the 2-hander will have a 68% chance of doing between half and twice the expected DPS. Of the remaining 32%, 16% of the time you'll do less than half the expected DPS, and 16% of the time you'll do more than twice the expected DPS.

So with the 1-handers there's a 99.97% chance you'll survive the fight and an 84% chance with the 2-hander. Not taking into account any variance in the mob's damage, of course.

Numbers are taken from standard deviations of a bell curve. I'm assuming 1 standard deviation with the 1-handers and 2 standard deviations with the 2-hander, which is supported by the law of large numbers and the central limit theorem. The central limit theorem says that the variance of n samples from a distribution with variance V is V/n: double the samples, halve the variance. Variance is the square of the standard deviation, so I'm comparing 4 standard deviations for 1-handers to 1 standard deviation for 2-handers.

I'd love to get 7thGate's thoughts on this, as I'm not super confident in how I'm using standard deviations here. I've never thought about how different variances between 1- and 2-handers would affect survivability in a solo fight. And thanks to DSM for raising such an interesting topic, even if it has next to no impact on a raid encounter that requires 10-20,000 hits to kill.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's a good question; I thought people were suggesting low hits would mean a larger portion of the damage comes from the damage bonus. But it seems 2 handers give better damage bonus dps?

According to the lucy chart linked above you're looking at +11 for a prime hand one hander and +29 for a 30 delay two hander (e.g. abashi or tstaff), so is the "damage-bonus-only-ratio" 11/18 for a FoN and 29/30 for an abashi, favoring the 2 hander by a convincing 58%? (I'm not sure that the lucy chart is accurate. I'm also not sure that a two hander swings the same number of swings per round as the primary hand when dual weilding.)

It seems to me that two handers should do better relative to one handers on high ac mobs than on low ac mobs.

Going back to this original example, I realized that the 11/18 number got stuck in my head for Fist of Nature. I see that Vivitron was just using the damage bonus, but it threw me off. It's a 15/18 weapon. I'll go back to my previous example:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll use the damage range from my SK as a quick example. His 46/44 ratio weapon does 46-258 damage self buffed, with the 37 damage bonus. This means the damage roll range is 9-221 (the part affected by AC).

For argument's sake, we will say AoW reduces your damage rolls by half on average.

This means my average damage per hit on the 2h weapon is (9 + 221) / 2 = 115 × 0.5 = 57.5 + 37 = 94.5 damage.

At 100% haste you have 22 delay on a 46/44 weapon. You have 9 delay on an 15/18 weapon. 9 delay divided by 22 is 0.41. So you'd get 41 swings per 150 swings of the 15/18 weapons when including dual wield.

94.5 damage x 20.5 hits = 1937.25 total damage.

Using a Fist of Nature + Gharns would look more like this:

46 weapon damage from the 2h divided by 15 weapon damage from FoN is 3.06. The 221 max damage from the above weapon example divided by 3.06 is an estimated 72.2 as the max damage.

(9 + 72.2) / 2 = 40.61 x 0.5 = 20.3 damage without the damage bonus.

20.3 damage x 75 hits = 1522.5 damage + (11 bonus damage × 50 hits) = 2072.5 total damage.

This means a FoN + Gharns should out DPS a primal 2hb and a 29/30 TStaff. The 1h weapons will be more consistent to boot due to having more than double the swings. If Monks get 75% dual wields instead of 50%, the damage value increases further. Gharns has a slightly better ratio than FoN as well.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is reassuring that some things in life never change.

Truly cringeworthy!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Troxx comes back to bloat the forums with nonsense. Sadly he doesn't know how the game works, and cannot contribute anything else to the topic.

[PatChapp]

Need to ad the fist weave swing to 2h dmg calcs
Fist weaving is easy and any even half well played 2h monk will be doing it.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

theres a few exceptions , abashi just wins no matter what even on high ac, for ranger ive just parsed over the years better with 1h on like 3 targets, otherwise cek sword destroys 1h badly.

Same here with a ranger.

I can’t add the math that BC and some others are capable of. I know the dual wield page of the wiki with the offhand swing chart for rangers (75%) is dead accurate. I parsed once for 20 minutes on Bloodmaw with a 14/24 1hs and 9/24 1hb. By that logic outside triple attack for monks MH it seems accurate at 78%, but that would further favor 2hb anyways since it’s more likely to sneak a 3rd big hit in, with a better damage bonus.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Skill_Dual_Wield

Vindi isn’t a great target for a high-AC test but he is frequently killed. My best 99% haste all buffs but avatar and bard songs for a 13/19 and 14/18 is 66dps. My best for the 45/38 2hs is 74.

The 2h is technically only about a 3% better weighed ratio if you discount the DW setup by 25% in the offhand. Still the 2h is 11% better dps in the “best vs best” parse.

I too have gotten lucky with 1h. I carry them and sometimes play around for the procs, stats, or just out of boredom. 2h though, apples to apples, seems much better on average. Not dying to riposte or damage shields is a nice perk too.

I’ll probably try to get a Baton of Flame someday just for testing. I just don’t think it’s going to be consistently better than the 2h. Many rangers have bagged it for a Meljeldin for the same reason.

As for why monks do what they do? No damn clue. I know good raid DW combos still do amazing numbers. I also know most people who play Monks like melee spam. I also know the weighed DW ratios for more attainable stuff like the FoN and a cek fist/Fist of Lightning/etc is at least as good as a shovel, probably better. The jump from a normal 2h to an Abashi is a crazy jump.

The Peacebringer and IFS straight rip even at 60 but lesser monks will do anything to justify swinging an adamantite club and SoS. It’s kind of sad…

[Snaggles]

Btw, only like 1% of that was directed to Rip but my math agrees with his.

The rest was added because I blab a lot and am too lazy to multi-quote. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]