Player Agreement: Rule Change at the DS Camp

[fortior]

Originally Posted by sajbert [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You seem to be confused.

You're right that it's not a communal act to consult server staff and make a post, but he then appeals to the community, which is a communal act. He then proposes that the whole p99 community can share an element of game content instead of it being held down by a few guilds, allowed by current server and camp rules, which as with any other rules in this game can be subject to change.

Am I supposed to think this is a heinous act? That I am being deceived by this wolf in sheep's clothing? How dare he? Come on my guy, you're throwing vitriol here and it's not looking good.

I can see reasons for why people wouldn't wish for change and that's fine although I do think a considerable number are doing so for anything but altruistic reasons. And that's ultimately how it's going to be for most part. People who have something to lose, will say no. People who have something to gain will say yes.

He was told to appeal to the community, he had to be told that that was the way to go. Then just read the posts he makes in this thread: Loramin gave him good advice which he just discarded with a boilerplate response, same for several other posters. URN posters gave him good advice, same boilerplate responses. He has been completely disinterested in what other people have to say, only signal boosting people who agree with him. Note: URN requires no rule changes, keeps the content in the game, and requires no extra work on CSR's behalf.

I personally think he says the rudest things dressed up in polite language, and it's been very obvious from day 1:

Originally Posted by berbax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm really looking for the change to happen on P99, so right now I'm looking for the community to come together and agree on this type of change, so that the Project1999 staff can help in enforcing it.

Not looking for input, not shopping around for ideas to make for a more compelling player agreement pitch, but looking for the "community to [..] agree", so that whoever doesn't agree can be strongarmed through CSR enforcement (extra work for CSR). When someone shows you who they are, believe them.

[Duik]

Originally Posted by berbax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Duik, I’m sorry you feel that way, but I don’t believe responding in a petulant or confrontational manner adds any value, or aids in my cause. My goal has been to engage constructively and focus on solutions that benefit everyone. If that approach doesn’t resonate with you, that’s fine, but resorting to insults isn’t going to improve anything. Take care.

You continuosly reapeat the same droll time and again. The same thing time and again. Same. Same.
The same thing again, this time with a "you are wrong and this is why" followed by a "im just trying to remove the rampant toxicity for the good of the mental health of the server".
The people who camp items 24/7 turns out its not. They share the load because they have community contact. You are clearly not part of that. Seems to me you need to get over it or become part of the greater whole.

TL;DR
Nobody has to let you solo anything. Soloing is just that. Solo. Canny do yaself? Suckit. As an aside, I have no dog in this race as I know i cant spend literal hours online awaiting a <insert mob here> to spawn.
Deal with it.

[Elizondo]

Has DSM posted in this thread yet?

[zelld52]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Planned FTE Races

• Structure
• Routine
• Shared experiences
• Repeated, positive, ongoing interactions
• Belonging
• Self efficacy
• Self realisation/actualisation
• Socialisation
• Peer support
• Growth/mastery mindset/motivation
• Fosters community spirit
• Daily grass touching
• Results

Vs
Summer Camp Raid Meta

• Perpetually indoors
• Isolation
• Social/Peer comparison mindset/motivation
• Dissonant sense of self
• Sleeplessness
• Paranoia
• Delusions and hallucinations
• Technically possible but no results except
• Poop in a sock

[magicfest2]

Despite being direct competition, I think Otsego and I are essentially on the same page here. The conversation here is going to be forever circular because most of us on the thread are addressing what we thought the OP’s goal was, but his actual goal is essentially some other thing that I can’t quite define. If the goal is to get players urns directly and not have a ton of resellers making plat off people who are actually trying to gear their characters, then we’re already doing fine. The “GG group” (again, not just GG membership, just a group of people who want urns and were tired of the Big Urn monopoly) created their own system and banded together and got a bunch of urns for people who had never had access to the camp before. Castle is doing the same and huge respect to them! It is so much healthier to do it in a group like this than try to solo. All of the talk about it being unhealthy is literally just when you try it like OP did for solo artist, which is literally a player defined self challenge mode for the game that is totally optional.

Summarizing, a ton of new players have gotten urns in the past six months or so and farming for resale has almost totally stopped. This is supposedly exactly what OP wants, except “no, not those people, OTHER people in the server”. Who exactly? The real goal appears to just be about the selection of who gets their urns, because apparently they aren’t being distributed the way he prefers. What is the difference between players A-L getting their first urn and players M-Q or K/P/S/Q/X/Z? The number of urns is not changing, and anyone who wants to can put in effort with some friends and join up. URN from blue seems fine too, and all it takes is literally the same thing we did, just organize some folks to do it!

[Otsego]

Originally Posted by magicfest2 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Summarizing, a ton of new players have gotten urns in the past six months or so and farming for resale has almost totally stopped. This is supposedly exactly what OP wants, except “no, not those people, OTHER people in the server”. Who exactly? The real goal appears to just be about the selection of who gets their urns, because apparently they aren’t being distributed the way he prefers. What is the difference between players A-L getting their first urn and players M-Q or K/P/S/Q/X/Z? The number of urns is not changing, and anyone who wants to can put in effort with some friends and join up. URN from blue seems fine too, and all it takes is literally the same thing we did, just organize some folks to do it!

I agree, we're on the same page here.

The system works. Share the burden with others and make some friends along the way. Even if you can't put in long hours your time will come.

Often you'll find that those around you also want you to succeed. It's not about greed even if people are farming for their own progress. We all have the same goals and just want to make the camp as smooth as possible for each other.

[zelld52]

Here's a solve for you - you don't need the item to beat the game. Every guild has 100 people on a raid. It's not such a big deal. You could easily not have the spirit wracked cord and be okay.

New solution:
Stop trying to min - max and ExcelQuest this game and just play it. I have never and will never go for a Spirit Wracked Cord and I have plenty of fun on all my characters. So do the VAST MAJORITY of the server. Spirit Wracked Cord is such an E LEET level item. Just go outside, touch grass.

[Xer0]

Originally Posted by Mewlio [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Project 1999 isn't an entitlement server where you get something just because you feel you should. It is here to emulate Everquest as we experienced it "back in the day" and instituting rules that just award people things for showing up is bogus.

There are changes that could be made to improve the camp, but implementing a list/line/roll system is dumb.

yeah, which is exactly what p99 staff/devs have done in the past.

[thdapparels]

As someone that has held this camp in shifts for 96 hours. Its horrible, it sucks, constant pressure is obnoxious. It requires a coordinated group of players being on in shifts to really lock it down. All of these are tough obstacles to overcome, but this is the way it should be. Stop trying to make every camp snaccpack accessible. I am a fan of solo artist challenges, but trying to rework a camp to make it solo artist viable appeases a couple people, not the majority.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by thdapparels [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As someone that has held this camp in shifts for 96 hours. Its horrible, it sucks, constant pressure is obnoxious. It requires a coordinated group of players being on in shifts to really lock it down. All of these are tough obstacles to overcome, but this is the way it should be. Stop trying to make every camp snaccpack accessible. I am a fan of solo artist challenges, but trying to rework a camp to make it solo artist viable appeases a couple people, not the majority.

I'm all for making things "real classic hard" ... but P99's policy on DS and the list camps simply isn't classic.

Look, guilds absolutely, 100% monopolized content in classic ... but they were just more active than their competitors: they never truly "locked" anything down the way people here do, because there was no camp holding in classic. It didn't matter if you, or your guild, had been sitting there for 100 hours: you had no more claim to the mob than anyone else.

That may sound crazy to everyone here who is used to the P99 way, but we have the GM Guidelines from Kunark/Velious, so we know exactly how camp disputes were resolved in classic:

Originally Posted by https://wiki.project1999.com/Kunark_Era_Customer_Service_Guidelines#Contested

When a complaint is received indicating that a spawn or kill is contested, a disruption investigation should first be initiated according to the procedures of section 8.2.2 to determine if harassment or Zone/Area disruption is occurring. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, instruct the parties involved in the contested spawn situation to work out a compromise. Then leave the scene.

If another complaint is received involving the same spawn site, another disruption investigation should be initiated. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, if any of the parties involved were involved in the initial situation, establish a compromise for the parties to which the parties are required to abide. The compromise should be as described in section 8.2.3.1. Any party refusing to abide by the compromise established by the CS Representative should be issued a warning for disruption.

On PvP servers, where players can reach a solution to the contested spawn situation, the CS Representative does not need to require the players to share the spawn.

8.2.3.1 The compromise will require all parties to take turns killing the spawn(s). All parties involved in the contested spawn should be instructed to use /random 0 100 to choose a number. The CS Representative then uses /random 0 100. The individual with the closest number to the CS Representative’s number will be next in the rotation. The CS Representative then bases the rest of the rotation order on how close the other parties’ numbers were to theirs. The compromise established by a CS Representative must be objective and not require the CS Representative to choose one customer over another based on subjective criteria. The CS Representative is the arbiter in any disputes in establishing the compromise.

TLDR; /list and the Play Nice Policies have served P99 well over the years ... but the server can be better AND more classic by switching to a random system. Keep /list, and use it in more places like DS (with a little adjustment required, as noted in this thread) ... but make it so everyone on the list (#2 or #29) has a chance to become #1 when #1 leaves.