Player Agreement: Rule Change at the DS Camp

[berbax]

Originally Posted by Otsego [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I feel you're a bit misguided in this way of thinking. I understand that from a solo player perspective, the idea of you having to camp a 24 hour spawn feels quite unhealthy, since that burden falls entirely on you to maintain presence and hold the camp over that day. But the same is not true for the groups/guilds/alliances holding the camp, the ones you are trying to prevent by your agreement. At least with our group, we split the burden of covering long hours by having people rotate in and out based on their free time and real life commitments. They can literally pop online and offline at any time, even if they only contribute for 5 minutes at a time. The team actually creates a **more healthy** environment for them because the entire burden does not fall on them.

It has also had the benefit of creating friendships within guilds/communities that did not exist prior to the group forming. Normally we saw each other on raids, did our roles, then left and did other things. We may talk in passing while in groups, but it was never at the level it has been while camping Drusella. This has been a deeper bonding experience and each person allowing the others around them to share the burden of maintaining the camp. People begin to work around each other's schedules and availability. People log on to help or take over for others. This has fostered friendships and deeper bonds within our alliance and has been a positive and healthy experience.

A /random system like at angry would just promote people looking for easy RNG-based profit, a jackpot - it introduces greed where greed wasn't even the focus before (at least for our group, who is looking to help each other complete their quests and become stronger). It would definitely cause more urns to hit the market - you are correct - but who is to say that's even a good thing? Multiquesting and the selling of MQs, if anything, is discouraged by the GMs and they will not help you if your MQ goes wrong. Its just bypassing the need to do the quest yourself, usually in exchange for platinum. I don't judge anyone who goes this route - it's fine, but you're acting like MQs are an entitlement or the greater good here - at the direct expense of those genuinely trying to complete the quest themselves legitimately.

I've said this previously, but you keep acting like this is the same as Angry or Shady Goblin rolls, just because they are in the same quest chain. When both of those require you to be factioned in order to participate and you also prove you are at that point in the quest line by having the item to be turned in to both of those mobs.

That is not the same for Drusella. You do not have to prove you are factioned to loot an urn off the boss. You do not have to prove you have even completed the Regal Band quest. Absolutely anybody can come just to /random if they have the key to zone in.

That means you're gonna have 100-200 people, some utilizing their IP exemptions, all trying to levitate into east (and failing), causing trains, and even those that make it will have one of their invis's drop, or not even know they need double invis, or can double invis to begin with, and there's just going to be a bloodbath in the east wing, with people trying to recover their corpses and making things worse in the process. That's not even considering the trains that are not accidental. How about the people who see the opportunity to kill dozens of people? There are so many ways to cause trains into the east wing without much or any proof that it came from you.

And then what happens to all the people who win but no urn drops? "Oh well"

That's a good system? You could theoretically let a winner carry over to future days until an urn drops, but that person may not show up. Or they may lie and say no urn dropped when one did. There's too much room for players to abuse the system, but the worst part is going to be the zone turning into train city at all hours of the day because a lottery is now being held there. People will try to park during off hours and fail, so it won't only affect Drusella's spawn hour.

Have you even considered any of this? Or are you only concerned about your "solo perspective" in a zone that is meant to be for group content and teamwork

Otsego, I appreciate that your group may be having a positive experience camping DS, but it’s important to consider how this impacts the rest of the community. While your group benefits from sharing the burden and fostering deeper bonds, this system effectively monopolizes the camp, making it inaccessible to others who aren’t part of these organized groups.

If you’re part of Castle, as it seems you may be, this might explain why you’re having a good experience right now. But this setup isn’t creating a positive environment for anyone outside of GG, Castle, or sometimes Kingdom, who historically are dominating the camp. It’s crucial to recognize that the broader community isn’t sharing in these benefits, they’re instead being locked out.

My focus is on finding a solution that works for everyone, ensuring that all players have a fair chance, whether they’re in a group like yours or not. That’s why I’m currently looking into the Blue URN system, as it may provide a more balanced open approach.

Lastly, my solo journey at DS has ended (as I've mentioned many times now), my goal is to address a much broader issue that promotes fairness and community health.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

[Otsego]

Originally Posted by berbax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Economics of Supply and Demand:
Your economic argument misses the impact of monopolization. When a single guild controls the camp, they manipulate supply to keep prices high. By democratizing access, we reduce monopolistic control, which can help stabilize prices. This isn’t about basic supply and demand; it’s about addressing artificial scarcity created by monopolization.

Again.. a bit misguided

No matter what you do, Drusella only spawns X number of times and drops Y number of urns at some percentage (lets be generous and say between 20-40%)

That doesn't change. Change the system all you want, but the community is only receiving that many urns for players to utilize.

If a system changes the urns from going from the hands of players willing to put in effort to players who win a RNG dice roll.. the demand for the urns does not change. All that changes is those players who were camping it now need to buy their urn instead, keep showing up to the dice roll, or give up on the quest entirely - which would be a shame, but would begin to happen a lot more often. It would balance out though, to be fair, because those not willing to put in effort would also receive urns.

Is it a good thing to move the urns from those willing to put in effort to those who are not?

That aside - no, we are not "monopolizing" in order to "manipulate supply and keep prices high". Don't think a single one of us even cares about the prices on the open market. We are farming to complete the quest and not have to buy from people who farm just to resell for their own profit.

(Not trying to villainize anyone who does this, it's fine, it's your time/effort, so it's your choice if you convert that into platinum - more power to you.)

The point is that the number of urns is not changing and those who previously farmed will still be in the pool of demand. So supply is stable.. demand is stable.. why would the market price change?

If anything, I'd actually make the argument that the supply of urns goes down. At least some who win the dice roll will leave the urn rotting in their bank, or intend to sell it but never sell it - maybe holding onto it for when prices raise in the future - who knows. They may intend to use it "someday" if they ever get factioned, but never do. They may win, then suddenly decide to quit or go inactive.

The thing changing here is that urns are going from people who were willing to put in the effort to farm them (immediate need), to people who may only be showing up to win a lottery/dice roll - people who may not even want the urn themselves.

Scarcity is not created by this "monopolization" you claim exists - at least not with my group. Scarcity exists because it's a 24 hour spawn and a low drop rate.

Nothing in your post here will ever change that. All I've seen is you using scare tactics to try to manipulate people into changing how it works so it better suits your solo play style.

I get it, I don't even hold that against you. It does suck potentially having to hold a 24 hour camp solo or with limited resources. Welcome to Everquest.

[Otsego]

Originally Posted by berbax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Otsego, I appreciate that your group may be having a positive experience camping DS, but it’s important to consider how this impacts the rest of the community. While your group benefits from sharing the burden and fostering deeper bonds, this system effectively monopolizes the camp, making it inaccessible to others who aren’t part of these organized groups.

You can choose to play the game solo, or not part of any group/team. But the burden falls on you to compensate for your self-imposed hard mode.

Groups are how it was intended to clear this content.

If you want to do it solo, you have my full support, but you have to step up and compete. Trying to get the rules changed to some RNG system to benefit you is not the answer, it's a cop-out.

(Absolutely no bad feelings toward you or anyone else here, I am just extremely blunt.)

[berbax]

Originally Posted by Otsego [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again.. a bit misguided

No matter what you do, Drusella only spawns X number of times and drops Y number of urns at some percentage (lets be generous and say between 20-40%)

That doesn't change. Change the system all you want, but the community is only receiving that many urns for players to utilize.

If a system changes the urns from going from the hands of players willing to put in effort to players who win a RNG dice roll.. the demand for the urns does not change. All that changes is those players who were camping it now need to buy their urn instead, keep showing up to the dice roll, or give up on the quest entirely - which would be a shame, but would begin to happen a lot more often. It would balance out though, to be fair, because those not willing to put in effort would also receive urns.

Is it a good thing to move the urns from those willing to put in effort to those who are not?

That aside - no, we are not "monopolizing" in order to "manipulate supply and keep prices high". Don't think a single one of us even cares about the prices on the open market. We are farming to complete the quest and not have to buy from people who farm just to resell for their own profit.

(Not trying to villainize anyone who does this, it's fine, it's your time/effort, so it's your choice if you convert that into platinum - more power to you.)

The point is that the number of urns is not changing and those who previously farmed will still be in the pool of demand. So supply is stable.. demand is stable.. why would the market price change?

If anything, I'd actually make the argument that the supply of urns goes down. At least some who win the dice roll will leave the urn rotting in their bank, or intend to sell it but never sell it - maybe holding onto it for when prices raise in the future - who knows. They may intend to use it "someday" if they ever get factioned, but never do. They may win, then suddenly decide to quit or go inactive.

The thing changing here is that urns are going from people who were willing to put in the effort to farm them (immediate need), to people who may only be showing up to win a lottery/dice roll - people who may not even want the urn themselves.

Scarcity is not created by this "monopolization" you claim exists - at least not with my group. Scarcity exists because it's a 24 hour spawn and a low drop rate.

Nothing in your post here will ever change that. All I've seen is you using scare tactics to try to manipulate people into changing how it works so it better suits your solo play style.

I get it, I don't even hold that against you. It does suck potentially having to hold a 24 hour camp solo or with limited resources. Welcome to Everquest.

I understand where you’re coming from, but there are some misconceptions in your argument. Yes, Drusella’s spawn and drop rates are fixed, but monopolization by a few groups limits access for the broader community, effectively reducing the supply that’s available to everyone. This isn’t just about RNG versus effort, it’s about creating a fairer system where more players have a chance without needing to camp for 24 hours straight.

While your group may not intend to manipulate supply, the result is the same: fewer urns circulate among the wider player base, maintaining scarcity and high prices. Even if the current system works for you, it doesn’t for the broader community, who are locked out by this monopolization.

In a well-balanced game, systems would be in place to prevent this kind of monopolization, ensuring a fair experience for all players. So when you say "welcome to EverQuest," it’s more accurate to say "welcome to Project1999," because this level of unchecked behavior wasn’t intended in the original game.

It’s difficult to address these issues if we can’t agree on what monopolization is or that it’s even happening. My goal is to create a more inclusive environment where everyone has a fair shot, not just those who can commit to extensive camping sessions. I look forward to seeing your opinions on the blue URN system I'm investigating.

Thank you again.

[Otsego]

I came to this camp pretty much solo myself. I was not able to compete with Good Guys who had more resources than I did and were a lot better geared than I was.

My answer? I adapted, made a plan, organized a merit-based system to fairly reward people for their time and help them complete a quest they had written off as "not possible, gotta buy the MQ".

Those people joined me and we have managed to find success.

There is strength in numbers and in friendship.

Our system has been running since early November 2023, just 2 months after I began playing P99. It may have taken more time than I wanted to really get going (I needed a lot of gear upgrades if I wanted to hold my own in east wing), but now that it has I am extremely happy with how it has benefited our team.

Literally anyone can do this - you have people from Blue server in this thread offering a very similar system and it is proven to work while also rewarding people who actually put in the effort to get their urn.

Your solution here is not only lazy, it is manipulative. You try to convince people it's just like Angry Goblin when it simply is nothing like it. It would change the entire zone, which is already unsafe, to being extremely unsafe/unplayable, just because you now want to host a daily lottery in it.

You are also extremely talented at replying to people without actually addressing the downsides of your proposal that they present to you. I'll give you credit for that.

[Jimjam]

• Structure
• Routine
• Shared experiences
• Repeated, positive, ongoing interactions
• Belonging
• Self efficacy
• Self realisation/actualisation
• Socialisation
• Peer support
• Growth/mastery mindset/motivation
• Fosters community spirit
• Daily grass touching
• Results

Vs

• Perpetually indoors
• Isolation
• Social/Peer comparison mindset/motivation
• Dissonant sense of self
• Sleeplessness
• Paranoia
• Delusions and hallucinations
• Technically possible but no results except
• Poop in a sock

[berbax]

Originally Posted by Otsego [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I came to this camp pretty much solo myself. I was not able to compete with Good Guys who had more resources than I did and were a lot better geared than I was.

My answer? I adapted, made a plan, organized a merit-based system to fairly reward people for their time and help them complete a quest they had written off as "not possible, gotta buy the MQ".

Those people joined me and we have managed to find success.

There is strength in numbers and in friendship.

Our system has been running since early November 2023, just 2 months after I began playing P99. It may have taken more time than I wanted to really get going (I needed a lot of gear upgrades if I wanted to hold my own in east wing), but now that it has I am extremely happy with how it has benefited our team.

Literally anyone can do this - you have people from Blue server in this thread offering a very similar system and it is proven to work while also rewarding people who actually put in the effort to get their urn.

Your solution here is not only lazy, it is manipulative. You try to convince people it's just like Angry Goblin when it simply is nothing like it. It would change the entire zone, which is already unsafe, to being extremely unsafe/unplayable, just because you now want to host a daily lottery in it.

You are also extremely talented at replying to people without actually addressing the downsides of your proposal that they present to you. I'll give you credit for that.

The arguments I’ve been making aren’t about avoiding effort; they’re about addressing the monopolization that limits access for others. I’ve acknowledged the potential downsides of implementing a random roll or similar system, such as the risk of chaos or abuse, and have discussed ways to mitigate those risks. The issue isn’t that I’m ignoring the challenges, it's that the solutions I propose aren’t the ones you prefer because they would change the dynamics that currently benefit your group. If you need help finding my responses to these downsides, I can point you the in right direction.

The reality is that while your system may work well for those within it, it still leaves a large portion of the community out in the cold, unable to compete against well-organized groups. My goal is to find a solution that creates a more inclusive environment, where everyone has a fair shot at participation, not just those who are able to organize and dominate the camp.

Thanks for the discussion, and I hope we can keep working toward a solution that benefits the entire community.

[Otsego]

Originally Posted by berbax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Monopolization restricts access and creates unfair conditions where only those with excessive time can benefit. Fairness means everyone, regardless of their available time or money, has a chance.

Simply not true, we have multiple teammates that only contribute a few minutes or a few hours of their time. There is no demand for excessive time.

Like most other things in life though, the more time you devote to something, the faster progress you will make over someone else, but that doesn't mean it's a requirement.

This is just a scare tactic - manipulation

[berbax]

Originally Posted by Otsego [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Simply not true, we have multiple teammates that only contribute a few minutes or a few hours of their time. There is no demand for excessive time.

Like most other things in life though, the more time you devote to something, the faster progress you will make over someone else, but that doesn't mean it's a requirement.

This is just a scare tactic - manipulation

Otsego, I think we’re going in circles here. It’s clear we have different perspectives on this issue. My focus is on ensuring broader community access and fairness, while it seems like your group’s experience has been positive within its own framework. I appreciate the discussion, but I think it’s best to leave it here. Thanks for your input.

[Otsego]

Originally Posted by berbax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

An equity-based system like URN might break the monopoly, but it still doesn’t address the core issue of restricted access, or high prices (from what I understand).

Who was it that told you everything in EQ is meant to be unrestricted access?

The game is literally increasingly difficult encounters meant to restrict access until you become strong enough or are a part of a team strong enough to clear the content.

Can't do Kurns Tower naturally at level 8? Try leveling up to 11-12 or joining a group if only level 8.. suddenly the "restricted" zone becomes a lot more doable doesn't it?

You're seemingly pushing back against the thing that makes EQ what it is. Why?


As for high prices.. that's not going to change. Fixed supply, increasing demand.

I'd hate to break the bad news to you, but even if your lottery system is implemented.. some of the winners are not going to sell their urns..

Those urns are either going to be used and turned in by the winner, or remain unused in their banks.

The demand for them far outweighs the supply and that's never going to change.

It's a BIS item - it wasn't intended to be had by everyone. That's why it's on a 24 hour spawn and not a 20 minute and 30 second one.